So many topics I want to reply to, but I have a teething baby so my time is limited right now. Therefore, I'll post this as a seperate thread, but it was what I kept thinking as I read a number of things.
I think one thing that can cause conflict between a MIL and DIL is not having their expectations met. If DIL expects to be able to send out the email to the family and the MIL does it, she's hurt. If MIL expects to be able to go to the movies with the GC and doesn't get to, then she's hurt. And it's not like the other did something wrong in theory...there's nothing offensive about sending an email to family or taking someone to a movie...but it becomes offensive when it takes away a dream (a little dramatic maybe, but I'm lacking a better word) of someone else. I also think the problem is magnified because we expect the other person to just know our expectations without telling them what they are.
What expectations do you have for your relationships with your Son/husband, DIL/MIL, children/grandchildren? Have you ever asked the other person (or the parents/GPs in the case of children) what there expectations are? What expectations do you think you can assume someone else would know and which ones do you think need to be told to someone for them to realize you want it? And when expectations are in conflict (say both the mother and grandmother expect to be the first to give the baby strained peas), whose expectations should come first?
Wow, good question. I think my expectations were that we'd all be adults and behave with kindness and civility toward each other. I expected to be thanked for helping them out in major ways when asked. I expected to be able to work out issues like holidays by communicating and compromising. I also expected tolerance of the qualities that make us different from DIL's family. I guess I didn't think I needed to spelll it out since these are pretty basic "golden rule" or Miss Manners lessons I thought most parents made sure to teach their children.
Good luck with the teething, little one (and mom.)
Pen, I'm going to get even more nitpicky though. How do you define a compromise about the holidays? Say you said they should alternate. What if they think that always going to her family for Christmas and yours for Easter (I'm assuming by golden rule you're Christian, forgive me if you're not) is a compromise? What if they feel the compromise is inviting everyone to their house for the holidays and let whoever wants to come, come?
I read a lot of what you've written and even it can be open to interpretation....how do you want them to behave like adults? Adults make decisions for themselves and then carry them out. Is this what you mean? Or do you mean not getting angry about something (and do adults really not get angry?)? How do you want to be thanked? A formal note, or does your family do more of the "verbal thanks is enough" thing? I want to break it down to actions....For example, I would say I expected my MIL and FIL to come to the hospital and be grateful for me being with their son instead of telling me to leave. Being told to leave hurt my feelings. Looking at this expectation, while I don't think I have the right to expect someone to say thank you or be grateful, I do think I had the right to expect not to be told to leave since my DH wanted me there.
What actions have happened....what did you expect to have happen....and why do you think you should be able to expect it?
In a different train of thought....I have always wondered about the use of Miss Manners and the golden rule. Miss Manners would say that you should be polite and cordial to anyone you encounter, and, if you feel uncomfortable around the person or can't say anything nice, you should politely excuse yourself. She's never said that one must accept an invitation or are required to go somewhere for the holidays, only that you must inform the person inviting promptly and if you decline one invitation you must decline all subsequent invitations. Also, you cannot accept an invitation and then decline it if you get a better one. But Miss Manners would always send a thank you note!
The golden rule says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". So if I want someone to be nice to me, I should be nice to them. I get that one. And if I want them to leave me alone, I should leave them alone. And if I want to work my crossword puzzle in peace, I should let them work their crossword puzzle in peace. And I want to host my own holiday party, I should let them host their own holiday party. I do these turn arounds to show that at some point, the do unto others as you would have them do unto you breaks down if you really don't want the "other" to be involved with you.
The other one that gets me (on a totally unrelated note) is "Love your neighbor as yourself". Notice it doesn't say more than, it says to love them as you love yourself. I feel really bad for my neighbor, because with the way we all beat ourselves up (with the you're so fat's and the you're so ugly's and the lose 20 pounds), if I loved my neighbor like I love myself, sometimes I'd hate my neighbor something awful.
Anyway, this is more food for thought than anything else because these expressions have always been interesting to me. They're so often used to say that people should spend time together and be friends when really, to me, they only seem to say be cordial. I'd love to know other people's take on them.
QuoteI also think the problem is magnified because we expect the other person to just know our expectations without telling them what they are.
I can give an expectation of my inlaws that I figured out a couple of years ago. They figured that when they retired that during the summers they'd get to take the kids all over the place on their vacations. Vacations as in being gone for nearly 3 weeks and traveling thousands of miles away.
That will NOT happen until the children are in their teens, if then. They have great memories of traveling all over the country on huge road trips when dh was a kid. (Dh's memories of it are NOT great. He hated it.) So...they assume they will get to do the same with the gk's.
Dh is hesitant 1)...because he HATED those types of trips, and 2) We (yes, WE not just me) don't really trust his parents to watch them close enough on a huge road trip like that given the kids ages and the way we've seen them supervise Dh's niece and nephew at large crowd events and traveling. Sil may be fine w/it...we aren't.
We haven't yet told them absolutely not until the kids hit the teens. We've been cowards. They've only asked once, and were hurt when Dh said no (I didn't receive it well that they only asked dh--didn't even consider asking us together)---but I know they have some trips planned for the future and will ask again.
So...to the mil's...when this comes up again is it best just to focus on the age of the kids as an issue and totally leave out that we don't think they'd supervise them to our standards? Or just tell the whole dirty truth with no sugar coating?
I'd accept cordial. I think being polite and considerate is wonderful. I don't need a formal thank you note from a family member, although I love to use beautiful stationary myself. Clover, I hope you don't mean to say that my DIL has no clue about this stuff. After we helped them move one hot summer day, I don't think she thought, "Gosh, I'd love to thank the ILs for all their help, but I just don't know if I should tell them verbally or send a formal note? Oh, well, I guess I'll do nothing since I can't decide." She knows about being polite, considerate and cordial. She chooses to treat us otherwise because she hates us and doesn't want to encourage our relationship with DS. We know it & she knows it.
Funny expectations is one of the biggest problems I have with my MIL.
DH was married before. He is catholic, his ex-wife was Jewish. The only holidays they spent with her parents was Thanksgiving. Christmas eve, Christmas day & Easter were always spent with his parents.
When I came into the picture although not catholic yet (I converted) I also celebrated those holidays.
I have been with my DH for over 10 years and have only had 2 christmas celebrations in my house. One being that when I was pregnant with DD I felll on Christmas eve and the doctor said no traveling - rest and the other being a couple years later when I delivered my twin boys in the middle of december.
My MIL expectations are that Christmas is her holiday. She expects us to travel to see them christmas morning. It is much much harder now that I have 3 children under 3. They live over 3 hours away from us.
She also had expectations that Easter was her holiday - but because both my DH & were heavy involved in our church and helped out with the RCIA process at the Easter Vigil that wasn't going to happen. We are no longer invovled because of the children and now her expectations are again we should be there for Easter.
Her expectations are that this is how it was with ex-wife so this is how it was going to be with us. She also seems to forget that I also have a family.
This is one of our biggest issues of conflict.
We have tried to offer different solutions and game plans and we are always meet with resitance.
It is not the fact that we don't want to see them or celebrate with them, but Christmas is about the kids and I don't feel like it is fair to wake them up at 5 am to rush them through their presents from Santa and then throw them in a car for a 3 hour trip to Grandma's.
Some of my issues I know are with my DH as I feel like he should just step up to his mom and tell her that he wants to stay home and celebrate with his family and that we can see them later in the week or such. But he doesn't even though he wants to. He doesn't want to tell them how he feels because he is afraid of upsetting her.
I have already figured out how I am going to handle it when my kids get married and have families. My expectations will be to have NONE and to simply to ask my children how they want to plan it and work around their schedules.
Quote from: Birdy on April 16, 2010, 05:31:37 AM
Funny expectations is one of the biggest problems I have with my MIL.
DH was married before. He is catholic, his ex-wife was Jewish. The only holidays they spent with her parents was Thanksgiving. Christmas eve, Christmas day & Easter were always spent with his parents.
When I came into the picture although not catholic yet (I converted) I also celebrated those holidays.
I have been with my DH for over 10 years and have only had 2 christmas celebrations in my house. One being that when I was pregnant with DD I felll on Christmas eve and the doctor said no traveling - rest and the other being a couple years later when I delivered my twin boys in the middle of december.
My MIL expectations are that Christmas is her holiday. She expects us to travel to see them christmas morning. It is much much harder now that I have 3 children under 3. They live over 3 hours away from us.
She also had expectations that Easter was her holiday - but because both my DH & were heavy involved in our church and helped out with the RCIA process at the Easter Vigil that wasn't going to happen. We are no longer invovled because of the children and now her expectations are again we should be there for Easter.
Her expectations are that this is how it was with ex-wife so this is how it was going to be with us. She also seems to forget that I also have a family.
This is one of our biggest issues of conflict.
We have tried to offer different solutions and game plans and we are always meet with resitance.
It is not the fact that we don't want to see them or celebrate with them, but Christmas is about the kids and I don't feel like it is fair to wake them up at 5 am to rush them through their presents from Santa and then throw them in a car for a 3 hour trip to Grandma's.
Some of my issues I know are with my DH as I feel like he should just step up to his mom and tell her that he wants to stay home and celebrate with his family and that we can see them later in the week or such. But he doesn't even though he wants to. He doesn't want to tell them how he feels because he is afraid of upsetting her.
I have already figured out how I am going to handle it when my kids get married and have families. My expectations will be to have NONE and to simply to ask my children how they want to plan it and work around their schedules.
Birdy...Hello, and welcome....
as a DIL, I hated holidays...hated waking my son up early, rush thru his gift opening, and resented, not being able to stay in our own home for the holidays ( I literally resented the holidays)...no, instead, we were EXPECTED to be at my mom's and then my MIL's home...and I always had to work the next day...we had a 45 minute drive, and all I wanted to do was spend Christmas at home with my family...small as it was...however, it would have hurt both parents to say no, so, we didn't...however, holidays should not be dreaded, they should be enjoyed.
My neighbor has 3 sons....every Christmas day they were all arguing about wanting to stay home on Christmas Day instead of running around....she told me, she didn't blame them and then said to all of them..."OK, how bout this idea...how bout the Sat. before every Christmas, we spend here and that will be our Christmas celebration together".
Just an idea...I think things like these can always be worked out, with patience, compromise and understanding the other persons point of view...
Just my thoughts
Hi Cremebrulee:
Thank you for the welcome - it is appreciated. I know I kind of walk a fine line with the ladies here because I am a DIL, but I have 3 children, 2 of which are boys and one day I will be a MIL too!
I used to love the holidays - I went all out and this was before we have kids and like you mentioned now - I dread them - just dread them. I don't want to be that person because of my kids.
We brought your idea up at one point about a Saturday before or after and were told very firmly that Christmas was only Christmas on Christmas Day. This is not something I believe - but both his parents told us this. We have also tried to come up with other options - all of which are shot down.
In addition they added that if we weren't at their house on Christmas we wouldn't get any gifts. Personally I could care less about gifts as this is not what Christmas is to me.
I actually asked my DH one time when would it be our turn to have Christmas at our home and he told me when I became a GP and could make these demands of my children.
I don't know but I would like to think that I wouldn't make those demands on my children. I would instead do what you have suggested and say you all pick a saturday that works for you guys and we will get together as a family.
For now, I make my displeasure know to my DH and give in because I don't want to cause issues. This is very difficult for me because I am not that type of person. I tend to be very open person and tell you how I am feeling. My DH calls me blunt:)
I guess the worst part is his parents just assume that this is how it should be done and this is how every family works, because that is how they always did it.
Growing up my parents held firm on the fact that Christmas was at our home. If family wanted to see us Christmas morning they knew where we lived and were more then welcome to come on by and see us.
Thankfully Christmas only comes 1 time a year!
Quote from: cremebrulee on April 16, 2010, 06:32:14 AM
Birdy...Hello, and welcome....
as a DIL, I hated holidays...hated waking my son up early, rush thru his gift opening, and resented, not being able to stay in our own home for the holidays ( I literally resented the holidays)...no, instead, we were EXPECTED to be at my mom's and then my MIL's home...and I always had to work the next day...we had a 45 minute drive, and all I wanted to do was spend Christmas at home with my family...small as it was...however, it would have hurt both parents to say no, so, we didn't...however, holidays should not be dreaded, they should be enjoyed.
My neighbor has 3 sons....every Christmas day they were all arguing about wanting to stay home on Christmas Day instead of running around....she told me, she didn't blame them and then said to all of them..."OK, how bout this idea...how bout the Sat. before every Christmas, we spend here and that will be our Christmas celebration together".
Just an idea...I think things like these can always be worked out, with patience, compromise and understanding the other persons point of view...
Just my thoughts
I agree anything can be worked out with patience and compromise.
However I would take a different approach and arrange an alternative day with mom and MIL - separate days too so that there was less rushing and have the holidays with my little family - then we can enjoy it as a family.
I would put the happiness of my kids - especially if they were complaining about not liking having to go - above that of either set of parents. They're only young once and should be able to enjoy xmas the way they want while the magic if still there.
And I think the DIL and sons parents should both understand that - when they had their young children they made their own choices - and if that choice was to rush and visit each set of parents then that was their decision. But that doesn't then give an obligation for their children to do the same when they have families of their own.
It may be selfish but I would put mine and my childrens wants at the holidays above everyone elses because they had their life and their young family and now its our turn. I wouldn't want to regret not having christmas at home when my kids are older.
**Editted to add: if either side declined and said "christmas is only on christmas and no presents if you don't come to us that day" then I would tell them that's fine. It's their choice but I'm an adult and the parent of the children concerned and I won't give in to demands or power plays (which the gift comment obviously is).
I'd like to add something else to this post if I may....which I think is applicable to both DIL's and MIL's.
What none of us want to realize or face...is...when our son's marry, there is a drastic change. We mother's were they're best friends at one time...they depended on us, needed us, and relyed on us for they're safety and well being, as well as advice and comfort.
However, when our son's grow up, they do just that...and sometimes, I believe, that is the most difficult thing for a mother to do, is to let them go...to actually push them out of the nest....after all, those boys, now full grown men, were our whole purpose for a long long time...we gave up so much for them, which is normal for a mother to do...we put our dreams aside, and our children become our purpose...then all of a sudden, they grow up and it's difficult to let them go....they are and do consider themselves mature adults...they cannot wait to make they're own decissions...make they're own mistakes, choose they're own friends, have they're own place and develop they're own traditions....however, in our lives that is one of the hugest changes we are ever going to have to swallow. It's the same for parents whose kids go off to college...it's a very difficult transition...for some, not all, but I've seen grown men, really worry and actually cry, b/c they're little girls are leaving home and going off to college.
All of a sudden, it's like the rug is torn out from under you and there you sit, feeling alone, and the house if very very quiet...no more, mom this, or mom, can you do that...and do you remember dropping everything you were doing to answer that Mom, can you do this or that request...? I can. So, now what do we do with our lives...for all those years, we put our sons first...loving them dearly with all our hearts....we were used to not only them coming to us for love, advice and yes, even discipline...but also they're friends...now, there we sit, all alone, and it's all gone and over with...what a shock to the system.
Now, our son's take a wife...this is a whole other person who comes into the picture, with a whole different way of doing things...she is young, and yes, I remember being so immature, impatient and surely didn't want to be told what to do or how to do it, or I had to be there, or here at such and such a time...why, my MIL even told me, how much we had to give in our cards for family birthday presents or christenings, etc. Sheeesh....
So, my point is, you have two women who love the same man...who are fighting for they're place in this man's heart.
Then, one thing happens...perhaps the MIL says something our of habbit, b/c she's always done it that way, and expects that, that is the way DIL and Son will view it, or visa versa, DIL announces, we are going here or there this Christmas....and all of a sudden, MIL, feels her heart in her throat...silently screaming...."WHAT???" Your not spending Christmas with us?????
I can understand the hurt, the pain of realizing, your only son is not going to be here for Christmas...
To be perfectly honest with all of you, I do believe that is why my son and his wife moved away....they didn't only have my expectations to meet with, but his father's and her mothers, each of us owning our own family...and that is spreading it pretty darn thin...therefore, to solve the problem, they moved away....and frankly, I can't blame them...
We as human's want, what we want, when we want it...and unfortunately, when our son's marry, they are so eager to start they're new lives with the love of they're lives...they don't love us any less, however, they love they're wives in a whole new way, they've never known before....and in a way, they could never experience before. They're wives now become theyr'e best friends, and confidents...and that is the way it should be...that is life, that is how we all went thru the steps...we got married and clung to our husbands....some of us went home, but our husbands and families became priority...
So, now we have two women who just locked horns...over where Chistmas this year is going to be...both of them are hurt...very hurt, b/c they're expectations were not meant...so, now, we as woman turn that hurt into anger, and start to analyze, and view the whole situation as a rejection...when, in fact, it isn't at all, it's simply what they, our son's and DIL's want to do...
I suppose this has always been a little bit easier for me to grasp because, when my son was growing up, I vowed..that I wouldn't play tug of war with him, as I'd seen so many other couples who were divorced do with they're children. So, I'd always ask him, where would you like to go for Christmas, or for Easter, or for Thanksgiving...and really really allowed him to feel that it was ok to choose his father's home and I wouldn't be hurt...I never let on that I was hurt...it was more important to me that he be happy and comfortable, so, I guess, that is why I can see this a little easier then some...
Ladies...from my heart, I wish I could solve all of your problems, both MIL's and DIL's...I really do...I know the horrible pain I went thru...how awful it was...for 12 years...however, when I started to change my thoughts and ideas, and expectations on things, that is when it all started changing for me...
I know there are exceptions and some MIL's are down right unreasonable and have to have ti there way all the time, and I know there are some DIL's out there who are the same, very self imposed and unreasonable...but, there are also some DIL's out there that want the same thing we want, but like us, do not know what to do, are afraid, and have been hurt...by expectations and then analizing the situation, to the point that we convince ourselves, they must hate us, when they don't. All they want is some privacy and space to start they're own lives together, make they're own decissions, and yes, even allow the grand children to go where they say they should be...it's nothing against anyone...perhaps the DIL had some really scary experience when she was a child, and that is why she doesn't want to allow her children with you as much as you would like? Perhaps she is over protective...while they are our grand children, we all have to understand, those children are they're children...and while I think it's really important for a child to have as many role models in they're lives while growing up...unfortunately, some mother's don't feel that way, and they have they're reasons, be them fair or not, they are the mothers.
I know how awful hurt I was, b/c my DIL said, "No potty training". yet, girls my DIL's age at work said, "sheesh, I'd be happy if someone started potty training my child"....everyone feels differently and both side of us, someone have to come together and say...ok, maybe I don't do things that way, however, she is not doing this to hurt me, it's how she feels...
Yes, indeed, letting go of expectations is very difficult...I can remember the shock of it all when this all started with me...however, it was in fact a miscommunication, which escalated, and got worse and worse, until we were both ready to listen to each other...really listen, and be able to let go and give...forgive, and not bring up anything else in the past that happened, but actually move foreward together....me taking a huge step back, and allowing my son, his love of his life...and I realized, to do and be otherwise, is literally asking him to choose....
Time changes things, time moves on...sometimes, it doesn't always seem fair...and sometimes, it's extremely un nerving and heartbreaking...however, there is a new life that blooms each and every spring...all we have to do, is feed it...and it smiles glorisously...we have to find something else to fill our lives...and allow our son's to be...to make they're own decissions and love they're wives, making they're own rules and traditions up...we can't always have our own ways, when another person is involved....
and it's the hardest most difficult thing to do...you feel so alone at times, but when I feel that way, I take heart, that my son is very very happy and very much in love....and that most of the problem was, that I disapproved, which broke his heart....because maybe he didn't realize it, he only wanted my approval...me to love his wife as he did...and everytime I fought it, it was like saying to him..."You made a mistake, your wife is not for you, and it berated her everytime I tried to plead my side of the story with him...and rightfully so, I can understand his postion...he didn't see me as trying to prove my side of the story, he only heard negative words against his wife...his love of his life...and we, would do the same, we would take offense, back off from whomever didn't approve of our husbands, and be very very hurt.
So, while this post of mine, may not apply to anyone else here, but me....you all know your own situation...I had to share my thoughts...and how it was for me...
I hope, I've now given my son, GD and DIL a great gift..peace and happiness together, and when they have time for me, they will come, and when they together feel that I need some time alone with GD or with Son, they will allocate to me that time...after all, they live out of state, and they're time is limited...and they have two whole other families to share with...
and so, I hope I've grown some, and do right by them....all I really want for my son, is his happiness....
and he is...and very very relieved now...
and yanno, I wonder, now, if that poor girl who is my DIL understands, that I really did think, she was taking my son away from me...b/c things quickly changed so drastically...like a ton of bricks...allof a sudden, my son was gone, and a great deal of my purpose went with him...and she now became the lady of the house...and our cultures clashed, and we acted out against each other, and each time something happened, it made it worse, now we're both walking on egg shells and every time something happened, it was "AHHHH HAAAA" see another strike against her....and another and another...until it got so way out of hand and so God awful hateful...I don't believe I hurt another human being, Like I hurt my son and DIL...that, is very difficult to swallow...all b/c I didn't understand, what in the world was going on...? I can't help but wonder now, if maybe I depended on him to much...for my own happiness and purpose?
again, please know, I'm thinking outloud and only sharing my thoughts, not anyone else's here...b/c all of your situations are different...not one is alike...the other....
thank you for allowing me this time to vent...
Love to you all
Creme
Quote from: Anna on April 16, 2010, 08:01:30 AM
Expectations. Good subject. I guess I expected to be a part of my son, dils, & gc'c lives, I expected to be able to take my gc out. You know, like to a movie, overnight visits, shopping trips, to the zoo, to the park, mini putt etc... now & then. I don't mean every weekend. I mean like once or twice a month. We live close so it is do-able. I expected that my son & dil would not show hostility towards us. I expected a thank-you when we helped them out. But most of all I expected love & understanding, give & take, compromise, promises kept, & respect for each other as human beings, with all of our faults to boot. I am not perfect. I will make mistakes & stumble along the way, as will my son & dil. I can forgive them their mistakes. I expect forgiveness, especially since we have never done anything major to upset them. I am not an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a criminal. I am a wife, a mom, a grandmother, a mil, a daughter, a dil, a sister, a sil, an aunt, & a friend. I am the full time care-giver for my gc. I have many different roles. Most of all I am human. Can you forgive me for being human & making mistakes.
I don't think your expectations are out of the ordinary....however, Anna, do you know, I had my GD every weekend, but she was never ever allowed to stay overnight? That hurt me to...and I always had to ask if I could take her here or there...I didn't understand it then, but can understand it now...I don't have to like it...and I don't like it...but can at least understand it....I have friends that have they're grand kids all the time, who take them to Great Adventure, and all over the place, but they're DIL's are not mine...
have you ever tried to sit down with DIL and ask her why, without getting offended, but to honestly listen to her reasoning....like I said, you may not like what she has to say, and she might be wrong...however, perhaps by discussing the issue, it may help both of you understand each other more. Maybe if her parents were bad parents, she is apprehensive, not that she doesn't trust you, but we are products of our experiences? Meaning, maybe she was terribly scarred by something that happened when she was a child...and even your son doesn't know about it....doesn't mean she doesn't trust you, but her way of thinking is..."Anything could happen, all it takes is a blink of an eye and something really bad could happen?" Doesn't make it right...but maybe, that is the way she thinks...and whatever way she thinks, your son is going to have to go along with it...b/c she is his wife...and he respects that...and her feelings...and it's not b/c he doesn't respect yours...he might even be feeling very guilty and badly about all this, b/c no matter what decission he makes, he knows, he's being disloyal to someone...so, it's putting him in a position where he has to choose. If you and she could just talk....and work things out...and believe me, I dont' think your being unreasonable....is there a chance you could?
I've decided I'm going to love my DIL for who she is...and respect her decissions....I've been alone a long time, but I'm not lonely...my DIL has reasons for doing things, and I may not like them, but I no longer have expectations...true, this is certainly not what I had dreamed but, my dreams are not hers...and if I can put my dreams aside for my son, I can also do that for my DIL...she needs to be the head of her household, and maybe in time, she will learn to trust me and love me...for me....it's going to take a long time...we don't even know each other...and I know there is so much she can teach me...however, I must not have any expectations of how she should react to me or situations, b/c she is not me....
I'm writing to only to me, to re-establish this in my own mind...to reinforce it, and chew on it...writing helps me live it...
and while I'm writing this, it might be a very good time to say...when I write, a lot of times, I'm speaking to myself...sort of like, reaffirming it in my own mind. For many years, when I was upset about things, I would write poetry...not in anger, but to try and understand by looking at the whole bigger picture, it was my theropy and a way of trying to look at things from other points of view....and I hope you all understand, I'm not dictating to anyone how to think and feel, simply sharing my thoughts and what worked for me...which isn't going to work for everyone...
Hugs...
Creme
I just wanted to mention that it seems that a lot of you ladies (and I'm not saying wrongly I'm just suggesting an alternative) see the problem with not being able to take the kids anywhere as DILs problem and that maybe she's scared of something that happened to her.
But perhaps its not her - perhaps its your son that doesn't want the kids to go to say 'Adventure Playground' because of a bad experience he hasn't ever told you about.
I understand that as a mother you know your sons but we don't always necessarily know everything about our own family even if we're super close. My example is:
I don't drive which means I can't visit my parents without my DH as we live too far away. My mom saw it as DHs fault that I didn't drive because he was controlling me and wanted to keep me home and not let me see them.
The truth is - and I still haven't admitted it to her - that I'm afraid of driving and have been for a very long time due to a bad experience. DH knows this and would never say to my mom even though he's the one being blamed.
So just maybe in some cases its not DILs issue but a secret issue of your sons thats she's trying to protect him from having to face again.
Although to be fair in Anna's case her DIL is clearly just unreasonable! and Anna's expectations were not too high at all. *hugs for Anna* because you seem like a lovely MIL and grandmother.
Cremebrulee:
I am sorry that you had to go through all that. It seems that you may have hit the nail on the head about your DIL insecurities and being immature.
It also seems like this have given you a great insite to help other people with their family issues - MIL or DIL.
I got married later in life and had my first child at the ripe old age of 36 and then my last 2 at 38 almost 39. So I think my age is one of the reasons that I handle my MIL differently they say a wife of 20 or 21.
I love my MIL, I really do and she is a great women. I have told her that several times. She isn't perfect and either am I. Do we have problems - ya betcha. But you know what I have problems with my DH, my parents , my sister etc.... Everyone does. There have been times when she has been down right mean or rude, but then again - I am sure so have I. But I also will get over it and move on. In addition I just don't let a lot of things get to me. That is just the way I am.
I have none of that possessiveness of my children and welcome any help. I am not insecure in my position where I stand with them. I am their mother and that can never be taken away from me - period.
Has she tried to give me advice on stuff, yes - and it is just that advice. I take it with a grain of salt and move on. Like when she tried to give me breastfeeding advice and yet had never done it herself:) My father tried to give me advice also - but well I didn't follow that either.
I am going to speak for myself on this one, but sometimes I am really not sure if I have a MIL problem every single time, I think I have more of a DH problem. I have no issue telling my parents this is how it is or we are going to do this or that. I take what they throw at me. DH on the other hand is afraid to by a problem child, to rock the boat and to upset his parents.
I also know that a couple of time DH & I have come up with a plan as a united front and have excuted our choice/decision as soon as he hears some back lash from his parents, he will cave and he will start to say well Birdy thought this would work or Birdy though that. Ummm - no we came up with together and not apart.
A prime example of this would be our last blow out with them which happened at my baby shower. MIL bought our DD bedroom set, or should I said she was going to either buy pieces of it of the whole set - we weren't sure and either was she. She said we would know when we got the money. We had ordered our set back in November and it was arrived in January. I thanked her every single time that we had seen her, even though we had yet to get a check from her. Which was fine as we bought what we could afford.
So baby shower is coming soon and DH informs me that he feels like his mom will put the check in the card for the shower. I say no because well that is just tacky. Understand I didn't expect any other gift from them. DH insists this is her way and she will do this. So I ask him how should I handle it. He asks me what do I think and I said well in our family whenever we got money or gift card, we didn't acknowledge the money we just thanked the person and moved on. He said okay that will work and he said that after the gift opening he would make annoucement that the nursery was set up and if people wanted to come back to the house they could to see it.
Well, I get to MIL card and open it up. She had put the check in a different envelope and then sealed it. So I would have had to open the envelope to see what the amount of the check which I wasn't going to do. I found his mom in the crowd and said thank you. I then moved on. By the time the shower was over and we were wrapping up I kept waiting for DH to come in and make his annoucement. It never came. I found out later that his mom left in tears and went up to him and told him that I had embrassed her and that I made a fool of her because I didn't acknowledge the check or inform the guest that they had bought the babies furniture. He told me this on the way home in the car and he was still backing me.
That soon changed when we got home and got a call from his father saying how hurt and upset his mother was and he started pulling up past issues that they had with me. I heard my DH go from saying that this was a decision that we had made together to saying that I had to handle this the best way I felt possible and did what I felt was right at the time of the shower.
My shower happened about 36 weeks pregnant and my DD came around 38 weeks. So it was 2 weeks of stress that I didn't need as I will dealing with issues with regards to blood pressure and other risks for me & the baby.
I informed DH that he must tell his parents that we would not talk about this until I was back to my normal self. After my DD was born I was still have blood pressure issues and the doctor's specifically told us both that I must avoid anything that would upset me. His parents were aware of this as he told them this.
They came to visit a week after DD was home, an hour into the visit his mother says she wants to talk about the shower incident. DH did nothing. He just sat there as I looked at him waiting to say, "Not now Mom." He didn't, so I sat there for maybe 5 minutes and then used the excuse that DD needed to eat and took her upstairs until I could hear them finish talking.
Some how I became the bad guy. DH never really stood up for me other to say well I was going to make an annoucement but you left so quickly.
This seems to be a repeat over and over with us. DH knows how I feel about it and has gotten better when dealing with his mom & dad that we come up as a united front.
I have to wonder and think that I can't be the only DIL in this type of situation.
Could our DH actually be causing some of our issues with our MIL???
Hopefully I didn't take the original post completely off track, just some additional food for thought!
Quote from: Birdy on April 16, 2010, 05:31:37 AM
Funny expectations is one of the biggest problems I have with my MIL.
DH was married before. He is catholic, his ex-wife was Jewish. The only holidays they spent with her parents was Thanksgiving. Christmas eve, Christmas day & Easter were always spent with his parents.
When I came into the picture although not catholic yet (I converted) I also celebrated those holidays.
I have been with my DH for over 10 years and have only had 2 christmas celebrations in my house. One being that when I was pregnant with DD I felll on Christmas eve and the doctor said no traveling - rest and the other being a couple years later when I delivered my twin boys in the middle of december.
My MIL expectations are that Christmas is her holiday. She expects us to travel to see them christmas morning. It is much much harder now that I have 3 children under 3. They live over 3 hours away from us.
She also had expectations that Easter was her holiday - but because both my DH & were heavy involved in our church and helped out with the RCIA process at the Easter Vigil that wasn't going to happen. We are no longer invovled because of the children and now her expectations are again we should be there for Easter.
Her expectations are that this is how it was with ex-wife so this is how it was going to be with us. She also seems to forget that I also have a family.
This is one of our biggest issues of conflict.
We have tried to offer different solutions and game plans and we are always meet with resitance.
It is not the fact that we don't want to see them or celebrate with them, but Christmas is about the kids and I don't feel like it is fair to wake them up at 5 am to rush them through their presents from Santa and then throw them in a car for a 3 hour trip to Grandma's.
Some of my issues I know are with my DH as I feel like he should just step up to his mom and tell her that he wants to stay home and celebrate with his family and that we can see them later in the week or such. But he doesn't even though he wants to. He doesn't want to tell them how he feels because he is afraid of upsetting her.
I have already figured out how I am going to handle it when my kids get married and have families. My expectations will be to have NONE and to simply to ask my children how they want to plan it and work around their schedules.
I always got the response "it is tradition that we have Christmas Eve and Christmas Day at our house and that is the way it is going to be." I asked about compromising and was told "it is tradition." My DH informed her that traditions change and that the traditions of his childhood changed when he got married and if she will not compromise we won't be there. She each of our family live and hour away from us in opposite directions and then from my parents to his is 1 hour and 45 minutes. He demand was just after I had said I will let bygones be bygones and let the past stay in the past...it didn't take her long to start controlling and demanding again. This is when my MIL told my DH that he needed to choose. It was her and her family or me. I was no longer welcome. I can't tell you how my DH felt. It has been 1 1/2 since we last saw or talked to them and her communication since then has been not nice. She has called me that person you live with and tried to tell my DH that I was sending her nasty messages and I wasn'ty.
Quote from: Laila9 on April 16, 2010, 07:02:50 AM
Quote from: cremebrulee on April 16, 2010, 06:32:14 AM
Birdy...Hello, and welcome....
as a DIL, I hated holidays...hated waking my son up early, rush thru his gift opening, and resented, not being able to stay in our own home for the holidays ( I literally resented the holidays)...no, instead, we were EXPECTED to be at my mom's and then my MIL's home...and I always had to work the next day...we had a 45 minute drive, and all I wanted to do was spend Christmas at home with my family...small as it was...however, it would have hurt both parents to say no, so, we didn't...however, holidays should not be dreaded, they should be enjoyed.
My neighbor has 3 sons....every Christmas day they were all arguing about wanting to stay home on Christmas Day instead of running around....she told me, she didn't blame them and then said to all of them..."OK, how bout this idea...how bout the Sat. before every Christmas, we spend here and that will be our Christmas celebration together".
Just an idea...I think things like these can always be worked out, with patience, compromise and understanding the other persons point of view...
Just my thoughts
I agree anything can be worked out with patience and compromise.
However I would take a different approach and arrange an alternative day with mom and MIL - separate days too so that there was less rushing and have the holidays with my little family - then we can enjoy it as a family.
I would put the happiness of my kids - especially if they were complaining about not liking having to go - above that of either set of parents. They're only young once and should be able to enjoy xmas the way they want while the magic if still there.
And I think the DIL and sons parents should both understand that - when they had their young children they made their own choices - and if that choice was to rush and visit each set of parents then that was their decision. But that doesn't then give an obligation for their children to do the same when they have families of their own.
It may be selfish but I would put mine and my childrens wants at the holidays above everyone elses because they had their life and their young family and now its our turn. I wouldn't want to regret not having christmas at home when my kids are older.
**Editted to add: if either side declined and said "christmas is only on christmas and no presents if you don't come to us that day" then I would tell them that's fine. It's their choice but I'm an adult and the parent of the children concerned and I won't give in to demands or power plays (which the gift comment obviously is).
I wished a long time ago my MIL would compromise, but she never would. In her word,"I am a hardheaded Czech woman and I get what I want." I think that explains it all. I don't take kindly to being told what to do...you can ask my parents I have always been that way. To me their is a huge difference in asking please or just straight out demanding. In my MILs eyes it is all about her and her extended family. The poor nuclear family is left out in the cold.
Quote from: cremebrulee on April 16, 2010, 07:09:11 AM
I'd like to add something else to this post if I may....which I think is applicable to both DIL's and MIL's.
What none of us want to realize or face...is...when our son's marry, there is a drastic change. We mother's were they're best friends at one time...they depended on us, needed us, and relyed on us for they're safety and well being, as well as advice and comfort.
However, when our son's grow up, they do just that...and sometimes, I believe, that is the most difficult thing for a mother to do, is to let them go...to actually push them out of the nest....after all, those boys, now full grown men, were our whole purpose for a long long time...we gave up so much for them, which is normal for a mother to do...we put our dreams aside, and our children become our purpose...then all of a sudden, they grow up and it's difficult to let them go....they are and do consider themselves mature adults...they cannot wait to make they're own decissions...make they're own mistakes, choose they're own friends, have they're own place and develop they're own traditions....however, in our lives that is one of the hugest changes we are ever going to have to swallow. It's the same for parents whose kids go off to college...it's a very difficult transition...for some, not all, but I've seen grown men, really worry and actually cry, b/c they're little girls are leaving home and going off to college.
All of a sudden, it's like the rug is torn out from under you and there you sit, feeling alone, and the house if very very quiet...no more, mom this, or mom, can you do that...and do you remember dropping everything you were doing to answer that Mom, can you do this or that request...? I can. So, now what do we do with our lives...for all those years, we put our sons first...loving them dearly with all our hearts....we were used to not only them coming to us for love, advice and yes, even discipline...but also they're friends...now, there we sit, all alone, and it's all gone and over with...what a shock to the system.
Now, our son's take a wife...this is a whole other person who comes into the picture, with a whole different way of doing things...she is young, and yes, I remember being so immature, impatient and surely didn't want to be told what to do or how to do it, or I had to be there, or here at such and such a time...why, my MIL even told me, how much we had to give in our cards for family birthday presents or christenings, etc. Sheeesh....
So, my point is, you have two women who love the same man...who are fighting for they're place in this man's heart.
Then, one thing happens...perhaps the MIL says something our of habbit, b/c she's always done it that way, and expects that, that is the way DIL and Son will view it, or visa versa, DIL announces, we are going here or there this Christmas....and all of a sudden, MIL, feels her heart in her throat...silently screaming...."WHAT???" Your not spending Christmas with us?????
I can understand the hurt, the pain of realizing, your only son is not going to be here for Christmas...
To be perfectly honest with all of you, I do believe that is why my son and his wife moved away....they didn't only have my expectations to meet with, but his father's and her mothers, each of us owning our own family...and that is spreading it pretty darn thin...therefore, to solve the problem, they moved away....and frankly, I can't blame them...
We as human's want, what we want, when we want it...and unfortunately, when our son's marry, they are so eager to start they're new lives with the love of they're lives...they don't love us any less, however, they love they're wives in a whole new way, they've never known before....and in a way, they could never experience before. They're wives now become theyr'e best friends, and confidents...and that is the way it should be...that is life, that is how we all went thru the steps...we got married and clung to our husbands....some of us went home, but our husbands and families became priority...
So, now we have two women who just locked horns...over where Chistmas this year is going to be...both of them are hurt...very hurt, b/c they're expectations were not meant...so, now, we as woman turn that hurt into anger, and start to analyze, and view the whole situation as a rejection...when, in fact, it isn't at all, it's simply what they, our son's and DIL's want to do...
I suppose this has always been a little bit easier for me to grasp because, when my son was growing up, I vowed..that I wouldn't play tug of war with him, as I'd seen so many other couples who were divorced do with they're children. So, I'd always ask him, where would you like to go for Christmas, or for Easter, or for Thanksgiving...and really really allowed him to feel that it was ok to choose his father's home and I wouldn't be hurt...I never let on that I was hurt...it was more important to me that he be happy and comfortable, so, I guess, that is why I can see this a little easier then some...
Ladies...from my heart, I wish I could solve all of your problems, both MIL's and DIL's...I really do...I know the horrible pain I went thru...how awful it was...for 12 years...however, when I started to change my thoughts and ideas, and expectations on things, that is when it all started changing for me...
I know there are exceptions and some MIL's are down right unreasonable and have to have ti there way all the time, and I know there are some DIL's out there who are the same, very self imposed and unreasonable...but, there are also some DIL's out there that want the same thing we want, but like us, do not know what to do, are afraid, and have been hurt...by expectations and then analizing the situation, to the point that we convince ourselves, they must hate us, when they don't. All they want is some privacy and space to start they're own lives together, make they're own decissions, and yes, even allow the grand children to go where they say they should be...it's nothing against anyone...perhaps the DIL had some really scary experience when she was a child, and that is why she doesn't want to allow her children with you as much as you would like? Perhaps she is over protective...while they are our grand children, we all have to understand, those children are they're children...and while I think it's really important for a child to have as many role models in they're lives while growing up...unfortunately, some mother's don't feel that way, and they have they're reasons, be them fair or not, they are the mothers.
I know how awful hurt I was, b/c my DIL said, "No potty training". yet, girls my DIL's age at work said, "sheesh, I'd be happy if someone started potty training my child"....everyone feels differently and both side of us, someone have to come together and say...ok, maybe I don't do things that way, however, she is not doing this to hurt me, it's how she feels...
Yes, indeed, letting go of expectations is very difficult...I can remember the shock of it all when this all started with me...however, it was in fact a miscommunication, which escalated, and got worse and worse, until we were both ready to listen to each other...really listen, and be able to let go and give...forgive, and not bring up anything else in the past that happened, but actually move foreward together....me taking a huge step back, and allowing my son, his love of his life...and I realized, to do and be otherwise, is literally asking him to choose....
Time changes things, time moves on...sometimes, it doesn't always seem fair...and sometimes, it's extremely un nerving and heartbreaking...however, there is a new life that blooms each and every spring...all we have to do, is feed it...and it smiles glorisously...we have to find something else to fill our lives...and allow our son's to be...to make they're own decissions and love they're wives, making they're own rules and traditions up...we can't always have our own ways, when another person is involved....
and it's the hardest most difficult thing to do...you feel so alone at times, but when I feel that way, I take heart, that my son is very very happy and very much in love....and that most of the problem was, that I disapproved, which broke his heart....because maybe he didn't realize it, he only wanted my approval...me to love his wife as he did...and everytime I fought it, it was like saying to him..."You made a mistake, your wife is not for you, and it berated her everytime I tried to plead my side of the story with him...and rightfully so, I can understand his postion...he didn't see me as trying to prove my side of the story, he only heard negative words against his wife...his love of his life...and we, would do the same, we would take offense, back off from whomever didn't approve of our husbands, and be very very hurt.
So, while this post of mine, may not apply to anyone else here, but me....you all know your own situation...I had to share my thoughts...and how it was for me...
I hope, I've now given my son, GD and DIL a great gift..peace and happiness together, and when they have time for me, they will come, and when they together feel that I need some time alone with GD or with Son, they will allocate to me that time...after all, they live out of state, and they're time is limited...and they have two whole other families to share with...
and so, I hope I've grown some, and do right by them....all I really want for my son, is his happiness....
and he is...and very very relieved now...
and yanno, I wonder, now, if that poor girl who is my DIL understands, that I really did think, she was taking my son away from me...b/c things quickly changed so drastically...like a ton of bricks...allof a sudden, my son was gone, and a great deal of my purpose went with him...and she now became the lady of the house...and our cultures clashed, and we acted out against each other, and each time something happened, it made it worse, now we're both walking on egg shells and every time something happened, it was "AHHHH HAAAA" see another strike against her....and another and another...until it got so way out of hand and so God awful hateful...I don't believe I hurt another human being, Like I hurt my son and DIL...that, is very difficult to swallow...all b/c I didn't understand, what in the world was going on...? I can't help but wonder now, if maybe I depended on him to much...for my own happiness and purpose?
again, please know, I'm thinking outloud and only sharing my thoughts, not anyone else's here...b/c all of your situations are different...not one is alike...the other....
thank you for allowing me this time to vent...
Love to you all
Creme
Well said creme! I think you hit the nail on the head.
Quote from: Anna on April 16, 2010, 08:01:30 AM
Expectations. Good subject. I guess I expected to be a part of my son, dils, & gc'c lives, I expected to be able to take my gc out. You know, like to a movie, overnight visits, shopping trips, to the zoo, to the park, mini putt etc... now & then. I don't mean every weekend. I mean like once or twice a month. We live close so it is do-able. I expected that my son & dil would not show hostility towards us. I expected a thank-you when we helped them out. But most of all I expected love & understanding, give & take, compromise, promises kept, & respect for each other as human beings, with all of our faults to boot. I am not perfect. I will make mistakes & stumble along the way, as will my son & dil. I can forgive them their mistakes. I expect forgiveness, especially since we have never done anything major to upset them. I am not an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a criminal. I am a wife, a mom, a grandmother, a mil, a daughter, a dil, a sister, a sil, an aunt, & a friend. I am the full time care-giver for my gc. I have many different roles. Most of all I am human. Can you forgive me for being human & making mistakes.
Anna:
I don't know a lot about your background, but I have to say to me it doesn't sound like this is your fault. Unfortantely for you it sounds like you have a very immature, very insecure, very selfish DIL.
I would give just about anything to have my children's GP closer. I would gladly welcome the break I would get for all the joy you would get with doing things with the GC.
And I don't think your expectations are out of line. I always make sure to thank my IL's. Always. Isn't that just common courtesy.
I am soo sorry that it has to be this way for you.
Quote from: Laila9 on April 16, 2010, 08:23:02 AM
I just wanted to mention that it seems that a lot of you ladies (and I'm not saying wrongly I'm just suggesting an alternative) see the problem with not being able to take the kids anywhere as DILs problem and that maybe she's scared of something that happened to her.
But perhaps its not her - perhaps its your son that doesn't want the kids to go to say 'Adventure Playground' because of a bad experience he hasn't ever told you about.
I understand that as a mother you know your sons but we don't always necessarily know everything about our own family even if we're super close. My example is:
I don't drive which means I can't visit my parents without my DH as we live too far away. My mom saw it as DHs fault that I didn't drive because he was controlling me and wanted to keep me home and not let me see them.
The truth is - and I still haven't admitted it to her - that I'm afraid of driving and have been for a very long time due to a bad experience. DH knows this and would never say to my mom even though he's the one being blamed.
So just maybe in some cases its not DILs issue but a secret issue of your sons thats she's trying to protect him from having to face again.
Although to be fair in Anna's case her DIL is clearly just unreasonable! and Anna's expectations were not too high at all. *hugs for Anna* because you seem like a lovely MIL and grandmother.
ahhh, what a different way of looking at it and a whole new perspective, yes, I agree, that is indeed food for thought...I am certain there are things that happened to my son that he can't share with me....so, yeah, that is a very important insight...thank you...
Quote from: Birdy on April 16, 2010, 08:34:26 AM
Quote from: Anna on April 16, 2010, 08:01:30 AM
Expectations. Good subject. I guess I expected to be a part of my son, dils, & gc'c lives, I expected to be able to take my gc out. You know, like to a movie, overnight visits, shopping trips, to the zoo, to the park, mini putt etc... now & then. I don't mean every weekend. I mean like once or twice a month. We live close so it is do-able. I expected that my son & dil would not show hostility towards us. I expected a thank-you when we helped them out. But most of all I expected love & understanding, give & take, compromise, promises kept, & respect for each other as human beings, with all of our faults to boot. I am not perfect. I will make mistakes & stumble along the way, as will my son & dil. I can forgive them their mistakes. I expect forgiveness, especially since we have never done anything major to upset them. I am not an alcoholic, a drug addict, or a criminal. I am a wife, a mom, a grandmother, a mil, a daughter, a dil, a sister, a sil, an aunt, & a friend. I am the full time care-giver for my gc. I have many different roles. Most of all I am human. Can you forgive me for being human & making mistakes.
Anna:
I don't know a lot about your background, but I have to say to me it doesn't sound like this is your fault. Unfortantely for you it sounds like you have a very immature, very insecure, very selfish DIL.
I would give just about anything to have my children's GP closer. I would gladly welcome the break I would get for all the joy you would get with doing things with the GC.
And I don't think your expectations are out of line. I always make sure to thank my IL's. Always. Isn't that just common courtesy.
I am soo sorry that it has to be this way for you.
Maybe given time, Anna's DIL will mature and change...I know a lot of DIL's enjoy the break...my girlfriend and I were laughing the other day...she phoned me and said, her own daughter organized a Mother's Day gift from her and her 3 sister in laws...guess what it is, and this is so funny....they are all going to give they're children to her for Mother's Day, so they can go to the Casino's....she and I started laughing so much...and I think it is funny...that her own daughter would think, that is a wonderful gift for Mother's Day....??????? My friend told me, Creme, I love my Grand kids and my daughter and daughter in laws, however, I can think of a much better Mother's day gift, like we all have a picnic together....or go out to eat together...or meet down at the shore house, together....LOL
Quote
I wished a long time ago my MIL would compromise, but she never would. In her word,"I am a hardheaded Czech woman and I get what I want." I think that explains it all. I don't take kindly to being told what to do...you can ask my parents I have always been that way. To me their is a huge difference in asking please or just straight out demanding. In my MILs eyes it is all about her and her extended family. The poor nuclear family is left out in the cold.
Whew, I think anyone would have a problem with your MIL, I would never take well to being talked to like that....very unfair....I'm wondering, since she announced that, sheesh, this is a long shot, but I'm wondering, if, in fact she's looking for you to challenge her...yanno, and I may be way off base, but sometimes people like this, admire those who are not afraid to stand up to her...is this merely a fear tactic she uses?
Pent and Anna, I personally think everyone should write thank you notes and that fruit baskets or bottles of wine should accompany them when the favors are quite large (think dinner, hosting, etc). But I ever expect one because not everyone feels like I do (and because if I did, I'd have a lot of unmet expectations).
I'm not saying you're wrong to expect these things. All I'm saying is that by evaluating what expectations aren't being met, you can zero in on why you're feeling hurt or angry. Then you have to decide if that expectation is fair and if it's been communicated to the other person (or if it's fair for you to expect them to know it). Does your DIL send thank you notes to others? That would be the test of if she 'just doesn't know" or if it's just you.
I decided to start this post after reading a post where it seemed the big problem was that the DIL's expectations and the MIL's expectations were just butting against each other. So I'll throw another question out into the long list. I expect to be Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy for my child. Am I allowed to have this expectation? What should happen if someone else expects to be able to do it, too? Do the reasons behind why I want to do it make the expectation any more valid? Does it make it more valid if I'm applying it to everyone? The reasons I was there to be only one Santa are...
First, I feel that the "magic" of waking up and seeing your presents in the morning will be diminished a bit if the kids look through those and then are thinking, I wonder what's at gramma's house and aunt's house and memaw's house for me, too. It prevents a bit of "being in the moment".
Second, it's so hard to keep kids believing in Santa once they get older, and having different handwriting on the gifts from Santa, the gifts at different houses, and other differences (why does Santa use different paper, why did Santa give me the same toy at both houses, etc) will make that moment end sooner. Without giving away too much, I figured out the truth over a few mundane details that didn't add up.
And third, I don't like how Christmas is becoming more and more a gimme holiday. I'd rather give gifts to my child and say we exchange them on this day to celebrate Christ's birthday and because of the great gift God gave us in Christ. So Santa, in our house will always bring bigger gifts (the bike, etc) but not the piles of gifts. And I think that adding more and more gifts to the Santa tally takes away a bit from the real reason behind the giving.
So looking at the question, do I have the right to expect to be the only Santa for my kids? I think as the parent, that is something that falls under my control. I think the reasons stated above are valid ones for wanting to (ie it's not just that I want the glory), but I also feel that unless I make my feelings known, I can't expect someone else to know what I'm thinking. So DH and I told our families before our DD's first Christmas. And they were fine with it.
So all I'm asking is for people to try to determine what their expectations are and if they have been effectively communicated to the other party. And if expectations are in conflict, to determine when you're willing to lower yours and when you're willing to leave the relationship if they're not met.
Quote from: Anna on April 16, 2010, 08:46:53 AM
Thank-you Franklyspeaking, & Creme. I have tried to talk to dil, several times in the past, & I still try. She seems very cold & unaproachable. I am not the only one who feels this way about her. It is better for me to go thro hubby, &, or son. Dil takes offense to just about everything I say or do, & this is a hard way to live. Our dil doesn't understand why we would want to take ou gc out, let alone why we would want one to one time with them. After all they are her children, not ours. I know she will one day understand, but that doesn't help us in the here & now. We have been allowed overnight visits, & outings recently, & we are so happy about it. Things have eased & I believe dil is really trying to, at least, meet us partway. I think she may be finally relaxing with her children, realizing that we do not want to steal them from her, ( I think she honestly viewed us wanting time with them as trying to steal them from her), so I can understand why she may have been terrified to give us that time. She had a pretty rough childhood, but at some point, you have to let it go, & live in the present. I know I had some pretty horrific things happen to me, I haven't forgotten, & never will, but I have learned not to let it interfere with my relationships now. Hard lessons to learn, but it can be done.
hmmm, this is very difficult Anna, I don't know how to advise you except this...I would not go thru hubby to son...and here's why...regardless of what you say to son, it's going to get carried back to DIL...and she will feel like, "Why did they go to you?, Why don't they talk to me? or she will feeel that she has already said no, and your trying to over ride her decission and stir up the pot between her and her husband, your son." So, this will make things worse, she's going to get angry, upset, then start thinking the way we women think and say to herself..."oh, those people hate me, they treat me as if I'm not a wife....and they are doing everything they can to make my life miserable, I already said no????"
so, what do you do? Patience...and that is a very big word, b/c you feel like your loosing time...well, if I may, maybe by telling you this, it will help you....you are getting over night stays now, you are getting time with your grand kids now...I know you want more, and deserve more, however, your caught between a rock and a hard place, this is a no win situation....repeat that over and over again...this is a no win situation....because even if your son does by chance say yes, then, she is going to retaliate in some negative way and it will make things harder on you guys, so I guess what you have to do is ask yourself, is it worth it...b/c down the road, we may find ourselves with less priviledges?
I'm hoping by being appreciative of what you have now, stepping back and allowing her...she will come to her senses and understand....she may not...but in each and every decission you make regarding this issue, you're going to have to ask yourself if your able to deal with any more negative consequences due to your actions and reactions to her...you don't ever want to make the situation worse...
my suggestion is, be patient, and not go to son...
I was going to tell you, it's going on four years that I haven't seen my GD...but that is my situation, not yours...I used to have her every weekend...every weekend...we developed quit a close bond...matter of fact, when they moved away, back to where they were before, (they were only here a year) my GD got sick and vomited....she knew...she's fine now, of course...in school and has made friends and has a good life...however, I don't know her....she doesn't remember me....am I sad, yes indeed, but that's life, I can't always have my way...if I fight it, I make myself sick...and make things worse on myself...I know parents that put they're kids on planes to go spend vacation with they're Grand parents...Grand parents are a very important part of a child's life, or should be...however, it's up to the mother...and no matter what, she usually gets her way...and we all know that, being mother's ourselves....so, Anna, I am at a loss to suggest anything other then please, don't be impatient, be happy for what you have....and perhaps more will come if you do, instead of fighting her for more now?
Quote from: cremebrulee on April 16, 2010, 08:44:05 AM
Quote
I wished a long time ago my MIL would compromise, but she never would. In her word,"I am a hardheaded Czech woman and I get what I want." I think that explains it all. I don't take kindly to being told what to do...you can ask my parents I have always been that way. To me their is a huge difference in asking please or just straight out demanding. In my MILs eyes it is all about her and her extended family. The poor nuclear family is left out in the cold.
Whew, I think anyone would have a problem with your MIL, I would never take well to being talked to like that....very unfair....I'm wondering, since she announced that, sheesh, this is a long shot, but I'm wondering, if, in fact she's looking for you to challenge her...yanno, and I may be way off base, but sometimes people like this, admire those who are not afraid to stand up to her...is this merely a fear tactic she uses?
I think she dared me/mom/DH to stand up to her (BTW she told my mom this while we were all out wedding planning.) She is the type that if you cross her she throws a fit, hangs up on you, gets all the younger nieces and nephews on her side and get them to defend her (one of them told me I am too stupid to know when I am in the presence of a wonderful angel like my Aunt and that I ruined my wedding with my presence, and she get real indignant. She is a piece of work. My DH and I truly believe she is evil and narcissistic.
Clover, for some reason my thoughts aren't getting through. I'm sorry if I haven't made myself clear. I hope you don't mind slogging through this again with me so I can be sure you understand. The "thank you" issue is not the important thing to me. Somewhere along the line you missed that DH and I had spent all day, on the hottest day of the year, helping DS & DIL move and clean. Her parents and siblings were not there, it was up to us to drive for two hours, work hard all day without being offered food or drink. We were not appreciated for our efforts, and in fact have been treated even more rudely by her since then. So why did we do it? Because we love them, they asked, we thought it would help show DIL that we accept her and want to be considered part of the family.
No, there's no law that says DIL needs to thank us. There's no law that says she has to like us. But it's polite to show appreciation (don't want a fruit basket, just a kind word - and lunch...a water bottle might be nice, LOL) when people who don't have to help you come and give up a day (well, two days actually because we were really sore the next day - we're old) to help you move. I don't expect anything from DIL, but I mention these things to point out how she feels about us. They are examples of her behavior.
Holidays - we've been parents, too, and totally understand about the Christmas morning - pj thing. DS & DIL don't have kids yet, so that's not the holiday issue we're dealing with. What happened with us is that DIL's family set the rules without any discussion or compromise with us. It's their way and that's that. Finally the SILs (our DS & his BIL) stepped up and complained that they should at least get every other Christmas with their FsOO. So now DILs family gets EOC plus a week every Christmas. We get EOC and no week. BTW, it's DS's only week off from work (he works for FIL.) They've pretty much sewn up his life. Yes, I understand they have the right to make their own choices, but it still hurts.
Other celebrations? They laid down the law regarding meal times and we always have to work around it. By the time DS & DIL get to us they're full and sleepy. If we don't agree with this we miss seeing DS, so we go along with whatever they want. We let them all run the show and try to fit ourselves in.
Does even a little part of you see that this behavior is rude, inconsiderate and unfair? Even if they all "have the right" to do it? I can understand DIL frustrations when I read their stories of unfair, abusive treatment from ILs and have expressed support. Can I get the same courtesy?
Quote from: Anna on April 16, 2010, 09:13:26 AM
I feel very lucky that we are getting more time with our gc, & I am happy with the time we are now getting, I hope I didn't sound otherwise. The way this came about was to have my hubby talk to our son. My husband felt the same way as me but never conveyed this to son or dil untill recently. So, son & dil, saw it differently when coming from my hubby, who they seem to have great respect for. For me, the only choice seems to be getting son & hubby involved.
I am so sorry you haven't seen your gd for 4 years. :'( I think that would kill me. You only deserve that kind of treatment if you are a criminal. I don't understand total cutoffs unless you have done something truly horrible, & I know you haven't.
No, Anna, I feel that your needs are merited as far as you GC....I was just trying to explain that it could always be worse, and that is what helps bring me back to tow....it is what it is...it doesn't kill me, I won't allow it to...it's my GD's life with her mother and father...that's it...i can't control this situation...they live far away and due to the problems we've had, that's what happened...it's life, and sometimes life isn't always fair, but I've learned the more I fight it, the harder life became for me...I created my own problems...Anna, no one else....dont' be sorry, I learned a very hard lesson...believe me...
so, Anna, I wish you all the luck and happiness in what ever you decided to do....I hope you know that.
hugs
creme
Quote from: Birdy on April 16, 2010, 08:24:40 AM
Cremebrulee:
I am sorry that you had to go through all that. It seems that you may have hit the nail on the head about your DIL insecurities and being immature.
Thank you, well, Birdy, I was very young, immature and insecure at one time myself...
QuoteI love my MIL, I really do and she is a great women. I have told her that several times. She isn't perfect and either am I. Do we have problems - ya betcha. But you know what I have problems with my DH, my parents , my sister etc.... Everyone does. There have been times when she has been down right mean or rude, but then again - I am sure so have I. But I also will get over it and move on. In addition I just don't let a lot of things get to me. That is just the way I am.
I dont' care who the family is, there are always family politics...however, we seem to be able to tollerate our family members much more then someone who isn't....if we'd walk around getting angry and everyone and staying angry, we'd not have any friends, would we?
QuoteI have none of that possessiveness of my children and welcome any help. I am not insecure in my position where I stand with them. I am their mother and that can never be taken away from me - period.
I'm glad, b/c it will help them be better at socializing...the more children are exposed to people and good role models, the better adults they make...they can choose who and what traits they want to adopt...it's very very healthy for children.
QuoteHas she tried to give me advice on stuff, yes - and it is just that advice. I take it with a grain of salt and move on. Like when she tried to give me breastfeeding advice and yet had never done it herself:) My father tried to give me advice also - but well I didn't follow that either.
a lot of times, mothers are mothers, that's all they know...they were used to giving advice to they're kids, so are they going to change now, NO. And I havwe to laugh at the breastfeeding advice....LOL
QuoteI am going to speak for myself on this one, but sometimes I am really not sure if I have a MIL problem every single time, I think I have more of a DH problem. I have no issue telling my parents this is how it is or we are going to do this or that. I take what they throw at me. DH on the other hand is afraid to by a problem child, to rock the boat and to upset his parents.
I wonder if it's that, or could it be also, that he just has been taught that parents are just that, and you don't question or challenge them...some parents are very strict that way, yanno...
I can't tell you how much my son taught me, however, I'd never admit it to him...LOL
QuoteI also know that a couple of time DH & I have come up with a plan as a united front and have excuted our choice/decision as soon as he hears some back lash from his parents, he will cave and he will start to say well Birdy thought this would work or Birdy though that. Ummm - no we came up with together and not apart.
well, keep working on it...and reminding him, there is always hope.... ;)
QuoteI have to wonder and think that I can't be the only DIL in this type of situation.
No your not...when I was a DIL, I remember feeling the same way...like he was taking her side, b/c he wouldn't see my point of view, but defend his mother, and she felt the same way about me...that he was defending her and calling her a liar....it isn't so, they just do not know what to do or how to handle it...like my son always says, women are very emotional...and you put one man inbetween two women, they coware...why, b/c they fear so much hurting both of us...or seeming disloyal...actually what we're doing is making them choose...can you even begin to imagine how difficult that must be?
QuoteCould our DH actually be causing some of our issues with our MIL???
I beleive they are, b/c when they start dating, the only thing they can talk about is they're mothers, they're friends, and they're past experiences...therefore, if our son's are dating insecure women....they fear perhaps not being able to live up to they're mothers and "that maybe he won't love me as much as her?"
QuoteHopefully I didn't take the original post completely off track, just some additional food for thought!
No, not at all, enjoyed reading your post and perspectives...and by the way, while it may not have bothered you, My mil insisted on buying the nursery furniture...it was not what I wanted...why is it, grand parents interfer to the point of they have this insatiable need to purchase all these huge gifts for the baby? It really hurt my feelings...I wanted something completely different, but she insisted...and I had to keep my mouth shut...
My MIL wasn't a mean person, she was very controlling, in that she raised herself and 3 brothers, she was used to doing what she did....and I am also a person that controls my own life...and somewhat controlling...we all are to some degree....
thanks so much for sharing, I enjoyed hearing your story...and we live and learn, don't we?
Pent, I'm sorry that what I've said isn't being read the way I meant it. I'm not the best at expressing myself through the written word, and I'll try to do better. I think you have *every* right to expect to be thanked and appreciated when you do something for someone else. You moved them on the hottest day of the year. They *should* say thank you.
I also feel that people should send a thank you note for a gift. And if I don't get one, I'm left wondering one of two things....did they not send me one because they didn't like my gift (or me) or did they not send anyone one (because they don't send thank you notes). If it's because they didn't like the gift or me, then I would stop having a relationship with that person. They treated me unkindly and my expectation to at least receive polite treatment wasn't met. If it's that they just don't send them out, but they're otherwise lovely people, then I'd have to decide if it is worth dropping the friendship because I didn't receive one. If I'm going to feel resentful each time I do something because they don't send one, then I think I'm obligated to bow out or speak up so we can try to find a way to work together. If I'm able to just accept that's the way they are, then there's no reason not to remain friends and since I no longer have that expectation, I'm not disappointed when it doesn't happen. Am I explaining this correctly? I'm not saying you aren't right in what you expect and that I don't think what your DIL did was rude. I do think it's rude not to be thankful, but what I think doesn't matter. You have the situation you have...and all that matters is what you do about it. You can lower your expectations, you can ask your DIL to meet your expectations, or you can walk away. But in so many instances, I think we all go along wanting things to be a certain way and being sad when they're not, and then doing it all over again instead of trying to stop the cycle.
I get that there's not a law that says she has to thank you and that you just think it would be nice if she did, or if she considered you at the holidays, etc. but that you expect her to. But all this also boils down to what those expectations are. You expect her to consider you. She may feel that by showing up (even though they are full and tired) she has made an effort to see you. And therefore she may feel she's meeting the "visit DH's family" expectation even though it's not meeting yours.
I do think you're getting the short end of the stick. But I also think that until you make your feelings known and start putting yourself first, you're going to keep getting the short end of the stick. If you don't want to change the time for Thanksgiving dinner, then don't. Eat it, eat it with the friends your DIL doesn't like, and let them come for dessert. Your DIL is looking out for her happiness and she's getting it. It's time for you to look out for your own. And if your happiness is tied to her doing something you know you can't get her to do, then you need to find a way to break that tie.
And I totally get that if you start doing this, you'll lose things with your son. He won't eat Thanksgiving with you because it started at noon and he was at his IL's house. But right now, you're not really getting to do that anyway. And it doesn't have to be a big "You won't come when we want you to so we're just going to eat without you, you meanies" type of thing. Just call them and say that Thanksgiving will be at noon. And when they say they can't be there till 2, you tell them that's fine, you're going to start at noon and they can join you for dessert and coffee. And then do it. Or do something else if that would make you happier. But it's time to focus on what will make Pent happy. And the first step is removing the expectations you place on others. Because if they're not met, you're sad. The only person you can expect to make you happy is yourself. Now start letting her :).
QuoteBirdy
Funny expectations is one of the biggest problems I have with my MIL.
DH was married before. He is catholic, his ex-wife was Jewish. The only holidays they spent with her parents was Thanksgiving. Christmas eve, Christmas day & Easter were always spent with his parents.
When I came into the picture although not catholic yet (I converted) I also celebrated those holidays.
I have been with my DH for over 10 years and have only had 2 christmas celebrations in my house. One being that when I was pregnant with DD I felll on Christmas eve and the doctor said no traveling - rest and the other being a couple years later when I delivered my twin boys in the middle of december.
My MIL expectations are that Christmas is her holiday. She expects us to travel to see them christmas morning. It is much much harder now that I have 3 children under 3. They live over 3 hours away from us.
She also had expectations that Easter was her holiday - but because both my DH & were heavy involved in our church and helped out with the RCIA process at the Easter Vigil that wasn't going to happen. We are no longer invovled because of the children and now her expectations are again we should be there for Easter.
Her expectations are that this is how it was with ex-wife so this is how it was going to be with us. She also seems to forget that I also have a family.
This is one of our biggest issues of conflict.
We have tried to offer different solutions and game plans and we are always meet with resitance.
It is not the fact that we don't want to see them or celebrate with them, but Christmas is about the kids and I don't feel like it is fair to wake them up at 5 am to rush them through their presents from Santa and then throw them in a car for a 3 hour trip to Grandma's.
Some of my issues I know are with my DH as I feel like he should just step up to his mom and tell her that he wants to stay home and celebrate with his family and that we can see them later in the week or such. But he doesn't even though he wants to. He doesn't want to tell them how he feels because he is afraid of upsetting her.
I have already figured out how I am going to handle it when my kids get married and have families. My expectations will be to have NONE and to simply to ask my children how they want to plan it and work around their schedules.
Geeze, I am so so sorry, his mother has no idea the damage she did to herself....how utterly selfish? Talk about pride? I bet to this day she is sorry she said that, she may not say it openly, but inside, it must be killing her.
As far as the nasty messages...I'm sorry to say this, however, it doesn't sound like she is going to change...."That person you live with"????? Give me a break....? Who does she think she is?
It sounds to me like you've been very forgiving about all of this...I know it hurts....but you must understand, it isn't you..it's anyone who would have married your husband...and by the way...your husband sounds like he has made a stand...I'm wondering is she was a real bear while he was growing up.
and by the way, through all of this, you don't sound bitter at all and have every right to be.
our mother always raised us to never ever not say thank you...we either sent a thank you note, or we called and said thank you, no matter how small the gift was....it was polite and what you do...she used to say, if that person took the time to remember you, it doesn't matter how bad the gift might be in your eyes...that person went to the trouble to purchase it and give it to you...
there fore, you say thank you....
However, my DIL wasn't big on that at all....
and I to wondered if they got the gift, or she probably wasn't saying thank you, b/c she hated me....LOL, wasn't true...it just isn't something she was taught to do, now us, it was drilled into....
now, I don't expect anything....and if she calls even all the better, if not, so be it...it's not because she hates me, and I can't make her do what isn't in her to do....she has got to want to do it, or it isn't real or her....
Quote from: Anna on April 16, 2010, 10:41:35 AM
For me, a simple thank-you while in the moment, or a phone call is enough. I don't expect to be sent a written, personalized thank-you.
Creme, I know you do. :)
Anna:
Agreed. Really how hard is it to say thank-you. It is really only 2 little words.
I don't know what is wrong with people.
I work very hard, very hard at teaching my children good manners.
Yes, Anna, that kind of acknowledgement would be fine. I agree with you all that a simple 'thank you' can go a long way! BTW, I taught my kids to write thank you notes...to this day I encourage DDD to acknowledge presents in writing. Gratitude is a wonderful emotion, but it does need to be taught.
To address some earlier posts, I don't expect to be paid back for, or even thanked for: helping DIL out of a legal jam; DS's education and support (car, phone, tuition, clothes, rent) during that time; expensive gifts for bdays, graduations, weddings & Christmas; our share of wedding expenses, etc. I can totally understand Betty's point about DIL reaping the benefit of what Betty did to help her son - it's not that we want to dictate what car DIL can drive or what clothes she can wear now that DS is successful, it's that we don't understand how we can be treated so poorly after doing so much, often at great personal sacrifice. Yes, it was our choice, and no they don't have to care. But it would be nice to be acknowledged and treated nicely.
I admit I resent having lavish vacations and fancy material possessions thrown in my face, too, especially since they seem to come with "Why don't you buy a bigger house? How can you live here? Why don't you visit such and such a vacation spot like we did? Why do you drive 5 year old cars?" Well, because we spent the money on DS's education, maintainance, and their wedding. If Betty's DIL was nice to her, I doubt Betty would be here mentioning the clothes and the car.
Clover, regarding making myself happy by setting my rules at the holidays or whenever, there are other people involved, not just me. If I act like DIL's family and lay down my rules, DH and DDD will miss out on seeing their son and brother. If my actions cause a family rift how is that going to increase my happiness? We can't simply think of ourselves all the time. There are a lot of other factors. If everyone could be less selfish a lot of these problems would disappear, IMO.
And Clover, thanks for your kind tone and helpful suggestions. You are a treasure :)
Quote from: Anna on April 16, 2010, 10:57:48 AM
Me too Creme, we never sent notes (kinda wished we did), but we were taught to say Thank-you, or call. My dil seems to have a sense of entitlement, like we are suppose to do for her, so maybe that's why she doesn't always say thank-you, she just expects us to do things for her. I noticed too, that lately she says thank-you more often. One thing she has also started doing is bringing me a coffee when she drops her kids off for the day. I love that she does that. Must make a mental note to tell her that. I have said thank-you each time, but have never told her how much I like that she thinks of me.
wow, you are making progress....bringing you coffee is a very kind gesture...I'll share one thing of many things I've learned...count up the good things she does...it helps you forget the flaws and the things she doesn't do....
your last memories of someone are always how they treated you, or how they reacted...so, is she has started doing these things, that means Anna, she is slowly trying...like I said, ROME wasn't built in a day, baby steps and everytime she does something nice, cherish it...b/c she is going to make mistakes.
Quote from: Anna on April 16, 2010, 10:57:48 AM
Me too Creme, we never sent notes (kinda wished we did), but we were taught to say Thank-you, or call. My dil seems to have a sense of entitlement, like we are suppose to do for her, so maybe that's why she doesn't always say thank-you, she just expects us to do things for her. I noticed too, that lately she says thank-you more often. One thing she has also started doing is bringing me a coffee when she drops her kids off for the day. I love that she does that. Must make a mental note to tell her that. I have said thank-you each time, but have never told her how much I like that she thinks of me.
I think it's great that you like that she thinks of you! I'm glad to hear she actually does some nice things after the whole pet thing.
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 09:20:11 AM
Clover, for some reason my thoughts aren't getting through. I'm sorry if I haven't made myself clear. I hope you don't mind slogging through this again with me so I can be sure you understand. The "thank you" issue is not the important thing to me. Somewhere along the line you missed that DH and I had spent all day, on the hottest day of the year, helping DS & DIL move and clean. Her parents and siblings were not there, it was up to us to drive for two hours, work hard all day without being offered food or drink. We were not appreciated for our efforts, and in fact have been treated even more rudely by her since then. So why did we do it? Because we love them, they asked, we thought it would help show DIL that we accept her and want to be considered part of the family.
No, there's no law that says DIL needs to thank us. There's no law that says she has to like us. But it's polite to show appreciation (don't want a fruit basket, just a kind word - and lunch...a water bottle might be nice, LOL) when people who don't have to help you come and give up a day (well, two days actually because we were really sore the next day - we're old) to help you move. I don't expect anything from DIL, but I mention these things to point out how she feels about us. They are examples of her behavior.
Holidays - we've been parents, too, and totally understand about the Christmas morning - pj thing. DS & DIL don't have kids yet, so that's not the holiday issue we're dealing with. What happened with us is that DIL's family set the rules without any discussion or compromise with us. It's their way and that's that. Finally the SILs (our DS & his BIL) stepped up and complained that they should at least get every other Christmas with their FsOO. So now DILs family gets EOC plus a week every Christmas. We get EOC and no week. BTW, it's DS's only week off from work (he works for FIL.) They've pretty much sewn up his life. Yes, I understand they have the right to make their own choices, but it still hurts.
Other celebrations? They laid down the law regarding meal times and we always have to work around it. By the time DS & DIL get to us they're full and sleepy. If we don't agree with this we miss seeing DS, so we go along with whatever they want. We let them all run the show and try to fit ourselves in.
Does even a little part of you see that this behavior is rude, inconsiderate and unfair? Even if they all "have the right" to do it? I can understand DIL frustrations when I read their stories of unfair, abusive treatment from ILs and have expressed support. Can I get the same courtesy?
Adult children have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to their parents if they choose (and parents have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to adult children/il's) - but it doesn't make it a good choice or the right thing to do. It certainly doesn't foster a healthy relationship. And we ALL have a right to our own feelings and if we are disappointed, hurt or sad - well, that's an appropriate response if we are being ill-treated. Shouldn't we all be working toward happy, healthy relationships - MIL/FIL/DIL/DS one and all? Just giving in to one side all the time to keep the peace may be one way of handling a bad situation - but it doesn't make it a well rounded healthy relationship. It's not really mil's against dil's - there are good and bad in both arenas.
Btw, can anyone tell me a good way to ask dil/ds what their expectations are in our relationship? Is a letter best, in person, over the phone, email............and the wording? Thanks for any help you can give me.
Hugs to all........Hope
I want to know too! I'm afraid to say anything or write anything for fear of upsetting a very wobbly boat.
Quote from: Hope on April 16, 2010, 07:06:32 PM
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 09:20:11 AM
Clover, for some reason my thoughts aren't getting through. I'm sorry if I haven't made myself clear. I hope you don't mind slogging through this again with me so I can be sure you understand. The "thank you" issue is not the important thing to me. Somewhere along the line you missed that DH and I had spent all day, on the hottest day of the year, helping DS & DIL move and clean. Her parents and siblings were not there, it was up to us to drive for two hours, work hard all day without being offered food or drink. We were not appreciated for our efforts, and in fact have been treated even more rudely by her since then. So why did we do it? Because we love them, they asked, we thought it would help show DIL that we accept her and want to be considered part of the family.
No, there's no law that says DIL needs to thank us. There's no law that says she has to like us. But it's polite to show appreciation (don't want a fruit basket, just a kind word - and lunch...a water bottle might be nice, LOL) when people who don't have to help you come and give up a day (well, two days actually because we were really sore the next day - we're old) to help you move. I don't expect anything from DIL, but I mention these things to point out how she feels about us. They are examples of her behavior.
Holidays - we've been parents, too, and totally understand about the Christmas morning - pj thing. DS & DIL don't have kids yet, so that's not the holiday issue we're dealing with. What happened with us is that DIL's family set the rules without any discussion or compromise with us. It's their way and that's that. Finally the SILs (our DS & his BIL) stepped up and complained that they should at least get every other Christmas with their FsOO. So now DILs family gets EOC plus a week every Christmas. We get EOC and no week. BTW, it's DS's only week off from work (he works for FIL.) They've pretty much sewn up his life. Yes, I understand they have the right to make their own choices, but it still hurts.
Other celebrations? They laid down the law regarding meal times and we always have to work around it. By the time DS & DIL get to us they're full and sleepy. If we don't agree with this we miss seeing DS, so we go along with whatever they want. We let them all run the show and try to fit ourselves in.
Does even a little part of you see that this behavior is rude, inconsiderate and unfair? Even if they all "have the right" to do it? I can understand DIL frustrations when I read their stories of unfair, abusive treatment from ILs and have expressed support. Can I get the same courtesy?
Adult children have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to their parents if they choose (and parents have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to adult children/il's) - but it doesn't make it a good choice or the right thing to do. It certainly doesn't foster a healthy relationship. And we ALL have a right to our own feelings and if we are disappointed, hurt or sad - well, that's an appropriate response if we are being ill-treated. Shouldn't we all be working toward happy, healthy relationships - MIL/FIL/DIL/DS one and all? Just giving in to one side all the time to keep the peace may be one way of handling a bad situation - but it doesn't make it a well rounded healthy relationship. It's not really mil's against dil's - there are good and bad in both arenas.
Btw, can anyone tell me a good way to ask dil/ds what their expectations are in our relationship? Is a letter best, in person, over the phone, email............and the wording? Thanks for any help you can give me.
Hugs to all........Hope
Word to the wise...never put anything in writing. It can come back to bite you in the tush; it did me. My MIL decided to let her 18 year old niece and nephew forward the email I sent to her to the whole entire family. Needless to say it didn't go well; the two 18 year old were so disrespectful to me (I am 12 years their elder and it was none of their business). Written communication is bad as you cannot tell the tone. In person is always the best. I wouldn't directly ask what their expectations are. I would ask how can we improve our relationship.
Thank you, MLW - good point. I never would have thought of that consequence, but now that you mention it I'm afraid that what I write here might be discovered by someone :-[
Thanks, MLW. Very wise advise. Now to get the confidence and courage I need to execute a conversation. I'm a real chicken when it comes to confrontation.......that's probably why I'm in this situation. I realize that it shouldn't be a confrontation, but it could turn into one by accident. I have a way of wording things in such a way that sensitive people can take me wrong. Oh, boy. Hugs, Hope
Quote from: Hope on April 16, 2010, 07:06:32 PM
Adult children have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to their parents if they choose (and parents have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to adult children/il's) - but it doesn't make it a good choice or the right thing to do. It certainly doesn't foster a healthy relationship. And we ALL have a right to our own feelings and if we are disappointed, hurt or sad - well, that's an appropriate response if we are being ill-treated. Shouldn't we all be working toward happy, healthy relationships - MIL/FIL/DIL/DS one and all? Just giving in to one side all the time to keep the peace may be one way of handling a bad situation - but it doesn't make it a well rounded healthy relationship. It's not really mil's against dil's - there are good and bad in both arenas.
Btw, can anyone tell me a good way to ask dil/ds what their expectations are in our relationship? Is a letter best, in person, over the phone, email............and the wording? Thanks for any help you can give me.
Hugs to all........Hope
I don't know how to tell you the best way to ask about expectations. Most of the time those conversations don't happen until something that comes up where someones feelings get bruised.
As to working toward the healthy, happy relationships thing. Both people in the relationship have to want the relationship. I don't want a relationship with my inlaws--at least I haven't gotten back to that point. And, I don't know if I ever will.
Dh is rebuilding his relationship with them, and they do see the kids. I'll be perfectly honest with you. Sometimes watching those things happen is very hard and makes me very angry and it's very hard not to lash out. I don't understand how DH and is parents can just sweep stuff under the rug and pretend it never happened. I'm not talking about apologizing and moving on, I'm talking about pretending it never happened so therefore there is no problem. I DON'T understand him letting them do that to him. And, NO...I would not allow my parents to do that. If the roles in our situation were reversed and my parents were the offenders...I would not let them back into my life until they were actually sorry for what they did and apologized.
I know my mil wants things the way they used to be. She and fil refuse to do the thing that needs to be done---be sorry and give a heartfelt apology. So...they get to see their son and they spend some time with our kids. I'm out. I don't visit them. I don't call them. I did do this Xmas at their house w/dh and the kids after we all took a 2 year holiday hiatus...but I'll never go back again.
So...I've rambled...but I guess I was trying to say that I guess sometimes we can't fix things because people don't want to fix things.
Thanks, Glitter. It seems almost every opportunity we have to see or talk to dil (very seldom indeed) could end up in a situation where feelings are bruised. There are never angry words said - just alienation from us b/c something is perceived as hurtful. Such as the couples baby shower we are having for ds/dil (dil suggested the shower be for couples). She was hurt (I'm guessing since she doesn't talk about her feelings to us) that we didn't ask her to join us in the planning until she mentioned something to my od about wanting to help. Even though we immediately tried to get ds/dil to come to our first planning meeting - gave them a couple dates, she said she wasn't available and told us a few different times to go ahead without her. Time was running out, so we had a meeting to at least plan the invitations so they wouldn't be sent late. We will be having other meetings to discuss food/activities, etc. The day of the meeting ds told my dh that he wouldn't come to the meeting either out of respect for his dw b/c "we were planning behind her back". WHAT????? We are all so confused. Is this a good opportunity to bring up expectations? I agree that both parties have to want the relationship to make it happy and healthy. I would hope that out of respect for your spouse (not you personally, but in general), you would want to have a positive relationship with his/her family unless it isn't possible due to an abusive situation.
Btw, I'm sorry to hear that you are having mil problems. Whatever happened must have been extreme. I know there are difficult mil's out there and we can sympathize with you because we are dealing with the same sort of stuff from the other direction. Have you shared any specifics on the situations you are dealing with that are causing you so much pain? If so, which thread are they on?
Hugs coming your way, Hope
QuoteSuch as the couples baby shower we are having for ds/dil (dil suggested the shower be for couples). She was hurt (I'm guessing since she doesn't talk about her feelings to us) that we didn't ask her to join us in the planning until she mentioned something to my od about wanting to help.
Ok...maybe my mama raised me too old school, but I've never heard of helping to plan your own baby shower. Am I hopelessly outdated to think that's tacky?
QuoteEven though we immediately tried to get ds/dil to come to our first planning meeting - gave them a couple dates, she said she wasn't available and told us a few different times to go ahead without her. Time was running out, so we had a meeting to at least plan the invitations so they wouldn't be sent late. We will be having other meetings to discuss food/activities, etc. The day of the meeting ds told my dh that he wouldn't come to the meeting either out of respect for his dw b/c "we were planning behind her back".
Again...I don't get it...you don't plan your own baby shower...just like you don't plan your own wedding shower. I'm guessing things would have been even worse if someone (not yall, of course!) had pointed this out to her? I might sound a bit sexist here...but I wouldn't have expected a guy to know that...it just isn't usually a part of stuff they learn. My own dh would have been in his own personal hell if he'd had to attend a baby shower.
QuoteBtw, I'm sorry to hear that you are having mil problems. Whatever happened must have been extreme. I know there are difficult mil's out there and we can sympathize with you because we are dealing with the same sort of stuff from the other direction. Have you shared any specifics on the situations you are dealing with that are causing you so much pain? If so, which thread are they on?
Hugs coming your way, Hope
Thanks...that's nice to hear. I did post about it when I was here before...my name was Glitterati, not 1Glitterati. We hired a contractor who was a friend of the ils to build our home. He turned out to be a crook who ended up costing us hundreds (yes, HUNDREDS) of thousands of dollars. We fired him. Inlaws supported contractor friend and not us. They went so far as to let the guy live on their property while he restored a house for them. Dh and I now have a mortgage that is 40% of our NET monthly salary because of this dude. In the end...he really ended up defrauding the ils too...but for nearly 3 years they chose him over us--To the point that they told us we were hurting him financially and we were acting badly by firing him! They can't seem to understand why I can't get past it.
they've said they can't change the past and we can only move forward. Both of those are true. Without them realizing they did something wrong and being sorry...I'm just done. Believe it or not, I've come a long way. I don't hate them anymore. I don't just wish they'd drop dead anymore. I just feel lots of indifference and some scorn.
Oh...and all of this happened after we'd had what I thought was a good relationship for about 17 years. I truly loved my mil. I would call her just to talk. Prior to my having kids, we'd go out to dinner together and things like that. Having loved them in the first place is probably why I hated them so much when all the bad happened. Because it hurt so much.
ETA...I used to like my fil, too, as much as one could prior to all this. He's a very patriarchal guy and a huge control freak. I was the only person who ever stood up to him. Everyone, including my dh felt he was a man to be deferred to even at other people's expense. Glitterati didn't play that. Fil (prior to the blow up) had an understanding w/each other.
What I wanted and what I expected are two different things. I wanted a close bond and a friendship and another daughter I guess. When that was clearly not going to happen I still expected to be treated like a human being, meaning treated with respect because I am a person, I am the person that raised the man she married, the person that paid for some of their wedding costs, the one who watches their dog when they go away, and cleans up at their parties and brings the food when I am asked. I just expected to be treated fairly, not equal to her mother, I know that is asking too much but treated like a grandma instead of a monster. I expected my daughter who was always so close with her brother to have a small place in their life not every weekend not even once a month but a visit alone with her or phone call every three months would be great. Or a birthday card like they used to.
Hey - wouldn't that be great if Glitter could be Bettylou's dil? Bettylou could take Glitter to lunch and buy her the Coach bag of her choice and her dd could have a good time with Glitter and she could probably visit occasionally and even hold the precious little baby. Maybe even play some board games or watch a movie.
I try not to have expectations, so I tell myself, "don't expect calls, don't expect to be treated like dil's parents, don't expect ds/dil to hang out with dd's, don't expect answers to my messages, don't expect visits, don't expect invitations, don't expect any initiatives on their part", but it is an inner battle b/c we naturally WANT to see our children or hear from them occasionally. I really appreciate that our dd's stay in touch. Thank you, Lord! And to think some countries put such high importance on sons - and daughters are a curse! I know not all sons treat their parents like this and not all sons have dil's that try to pull them away from their families. We're just the lucky ones.
Hugs, Hope
But Hope, I wanted the Coach bag :'( Oh right, I'm too old to be Betty's DIL >:(
I tell myself the same things, Hope, and have the same inner battle. Well put.
Maybe in the countries that favor boys the MILs rule the clan and the poor DILs don't stand a chance until they become a MIL. Of course it only works if they have a son...I wonder what happens to the poor moms of daughters in that case?
I'm looking forward to sipping wine around the fire pit Pen, I'd rather have a good memory than a handbag but I kind of gave up on bags when a diaper bag became the most practical thing to carry ;D I'll take a nice glass of wine and good company instead.
Postscript, I found that any "after kids" handbag I carried could be counted on to contain at least one dinosaur, two Hot Wheels cars, many smashed crackers, linty binkies, and Sesame Street bandaids. You're better off sticking with the diaper bag. I hear Coach makes a nice one :)
Glitter I can not believe that your inlaws chose a crum bum contractor over thier own son and his wife! That is terrible to me! I would be angry and hurt for years if that happened to me. I feel bad for you. Have they always done things like that to your husband? Are they senile? Just wondering because I know some older people get senile they get taken in by someone they think is nice to them and they just can not see the truth so sad. I hope soon you and husband have a wonderful reversal of fortune and can get out debt you did not cause!
Quote from: Hope on April 16, 2010, 07:06:32 PM
Quote from: penstamen on April 16, 2010, 09:20:11 AM
Clover, for some reason my thoughts aren't getting through. I'm sorry if I haven't made myself clear. I hope you don't mind slogging through this again with me so I can be sure you understand. The "thank you" issue is not the important thing to me. Somewhere along the line you missed that DH and I had spent all day, on the hottest day of the year, helping DS & DIL move and clean. Her parents and siblings were not there, it was up to us to drive for two hours, work hard all day without being offered food or drink. We were not appreciated for our efforts, and in fact have been treated even more rudely by her since then. So why did we do it? Because we love them, they asked, we thought it would help show DIL that we accept her and want to be considered part of the family.
No, there's no law that says DIL needs to thank us. There's no law that says she has to like us. But it's polite to show appreciation (don't want a fruit basket, just a kind word - and lunch...a water bottle might be nice, LOL) when people who don't have to help you come and give up a day (well, two days actually because we were really sore the next day - we're old) to help you move. I don't expect anything from DIL, but I mention these things to point out how she feels about us. They are examples of her behavior.
Holidays - we've been parents, too, and totally understand about the Christmas morning - pj thing. DS & DIL don't have kids yet, so that's not the holiday issue we're dealing with. What happened with us is that DIL's family set the rules without any discussion or compromise with us. It's their way and that's that. Finally the SILs (our DS & his BIL) stepped up and complained that they should at least get every other Christmas with their FsOO. So now DILs family gets EOC plus a week every Christmas. We get EOC and no week. BTW, it's DS's only week off from work (he works for FIL.) They've pretty much sewn up his life. Yes, I understand they have the right to make their own choices, but it still hurts.
Other celebrations? They laid down the law regarding meal times and we always have to work around it. By the time DS & DIL get to us they're full and sleepy. If we don't agree with this we miss seeing DS, so we go along with whatever they want. We let them all run the show and try to fit ourselves in.
Does even a little part of you see that this behavior is rude, inconsiderate and unfair? Even if they all "have the right" to do it? I can understand DIL frustrations when I read their stories of unfair, abusive treatment from ILs and have expressed support. Can I get the same courtesy?
Adult children have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to their parents if they choose (and parents have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to adult children/il's) - but it doesn't make it a good choice or the right thing to do. It certainly doesn't foster a healthy relationship. And we ALL have a right to our own feelings and if we are disappointed, hurt or sad - well, that's an appropriate response if we are being ill-treated. Shouldn't we all be working toward happy, healthy relationships - MIL/FIL/DIL/DS one and all? Just giving in to one side all the time to keep the peace may be one way of handling a bad situation - but it doesn't make it a well rounded healthy relationship. It's not really mil's against dil's - there are good and bad in both arenas.
Btw, can anyone tell me a good way to ask dil/ds what their expectations are in our relationship? Is a letter best, in person, over the phone, email............and the wording? Thanks for any help you can give me.
Hugs to all........Hope
I can speak for myself and as a DIL. I would have prefered a face to face talk. Email or letter can be taken out of turn since you can't express tone or attitude.
Also, depending on your relationship with your DIL/SIL I would also request their spouse be there so that their is no miss-communication on either side or finger pointing later on a he-said, she-said.
I think about this often, even though my children are still babies. I imagine sitting down a future DIL/SIL and just saying this is how I am.
As a person that has never done this with my MIL and wish we had, I feel like you sit down with your future husband/wife and talk about your expectations and such - but we never do it with the extended family, which will also become our family.
When we helped in our marriage prep courses at our church we were told and tell they newly engaged couples that the biggest issues they will face is usually: Family, holidays & money. In that order.
I hope as a DIL I can offer some insite and help the struggling MIL on this board. I also hope for the same.
Quote from: bettylou on April 17, 2010, 12:55:47 AM
Glitter I can not believe that your inlaws chose a crum bum contractor over thier own son and his wife! That is terrible to me! I would be angry and hurt for years if that happened to me. I feel bad for you. Have they always done things like that to your husband? Are they senile? Just wondering because I know some older people get senile they get taken in by someone they think is nice to them and they just can not see the truth so sad. I hope soon you and husband have a wonderful reversal of fortune and can get out debt you did not cause!
Oh no...they're not senile. They can NOT admit to being wrong. Unfortunately for us all...I simply can't forgive them for that.
It's about more than the money...they didn't actually take the money from us. It's about supporting and providing succor and jobs to the person who caused that to happen to us. They didn't believe us. They believed him. We were straight with them and told them if they continued to deal with him that they wouldn't have us. We issued an ultimatum and they chose. They proved, loud and clear, that we aren't as important as other people. Honestly...when we sat down and talked with them over a year ago my mil told me "you weren't the only consideration" when I asked why they kept him on. They thought they were getting a great deal money wise and chose that over us. Maybe it makes me bad...but I'm waiting for the day when something is TRULY important to her, she NEEDS me and my help and I can just look at her and tell her she's just not a consideration in my decision.
They do see the kids...and it takes every ounce of understanding and kindness in my heart to do that. But, I'll be truthful...it's on MY terms. They've lost the privilege to have things on theirs. It's really a shame, too...consider we live across the pasture from them.
Glitter's quote:
We hired a contractor who was a friend of the ils to build our home. He turned out to be a crook who ended up costing us hundreds (yes, HUNDREDS) of thousands of dollars. We fired him. Inlaws supported contractor friend and not us. They went so far as to let the guy live on their property while he restored a house for them. Dh and I now have a mortgage that is 40% of our NET monthly salary because of this dude. In the end...he really ended up defrauding the ils too...but for nearly 3 years they chose him over us--To the point that they told us we were hurting him financially and we were acting badly by firing him! They can't seem to understand why I can't get past it.
They've said they can't change the past and we can only move forward. Both of those are true. Without them realizing they did something wrong and being sorry...I'm just done. Believe it or not, I've come a long way. I don't hate them anymore. I don't just wish they'd drop dead anymore. I just feel lots of indifference and some scorn.
Oh...and all of this happened after we'd had what I thought was a good relationship for about 17 years. I truly loved my mil. I would call her just to talk. Prior to my having kids, we'd go out to dinner together and things like that. Having loved them in the first place is probably why I hated them so much when all the bad happened. Because it hurt so much.
ETA...I used to like my fil, too, as much as one could prior to all this. He's a very patriarchal guy and a huge control freak. I was the only person who ever stood up to him. Everyone, including my dh felt he was a man to be deferred to even at other people's expense. Glitterati didn't play that. Fil (prior to the blow up) had an understanding w/each other.
Glitter, I see your point, I agree that this situation does warrant your il's heartfelt apology. I hope they will come to see the pain they have caused you and your dh and try to make amends. I can feel the pain in your post and pray that the healing you are experiencing continues full circle.
Bear Hugs, Hope
I can speak for myself and as a DIL. I would have prefered a face to face talk. Email or letter can be taken out of turn since you can't express tone or attitude.
Also, depending on your relationship with your DIL/SIL I would also request their spouse be there so that their is no miss-communication on either side or finger pointing later on a he-said, she-said.
I think about this often, even though my children are still babies. I imagine sitting down a future DIL/SIL and just saying this is how I am.
As a person that has never done this with my MIL and wish we had, I feel like you sit down with your future husband/wife and talk about your expectations and such - but we never do it with the extended family, which will also become our family.
When we helped in our marriage prep courses at our church we were told and tell they newly engaged couples that the biggest issues they will face is usually: Family, holidays & money. In that order.
I hope as a DIL I can offer some insite and help the struggling MIL on this board. I also hope for the same.
[/quote]
Birdy, thanks for your input. I really appreciate hearing a dil's perspective on this. In general, I feel like hearing your side of the story (& the other dil's) has really helped me see things differently. Face to face and with ds/dh it is............but now I have to figure out a way to ask that is non-threatening and will not be taken out of context or twisted to make me out to be the bad guy. Any suggestions?
Hugging you, Hope
Quote from: Hope on April 17, 2010, 10:02:17 AM
Glitter, I see your point, I agree that this situation does warrant your il's heartfelt apology. I hope they will come to see the pain they have caused you and your dh and try to make amends. I can feel the pain in your post and pray that the healing you are experiencing continues full circle.
Bear Hugs, Hope
Hope...see...the thing is, they DO see the pain they have caused. They consider saying it's in the past, lets just move forward as amends. I do not.
Dh...because he was raised by them, to a large extent, does. I've tried to explain it to him...but he really has no idea what a chunk that takes out of our marriage and my trust and faith in him. He very seriously told me they had apologized. I said when? He said when we talked. I asked him to specifically tell me when they either said "I'm sorry" or "I apologize" at any point in the conversation. He couldn't remember it because it didn't happen. The realization looked painful to him. I told him that nothing with me changes until they do so.
Like I said...I went at Xmas (and mil thanked me and said it meant alot--and she was sincere). That won't happen again. I fully believe that my ils expect I am back in the fold, so to speak, and that I'll be back on holidays and at other times in between. I don't have the energy right now to start the fight by saying I have no intentions of coming back. Dh knows...I've been clear with him. They just don't.
As I look at this...I realize I have a luxury as a dil. I'm not really losing much...just two people. I never had much of a relationship with dh's sister and her family, and (despite what she thinks) dh has never been close to her and really doesn't like or respect her or care if he ever sees her again. Maybe I'd feel different if more people were involved--like my children or grandchildren. Maybe losing more people would motivate me to change the way I feel. I just don't have that motivation because having them out is less painful than having them in and it just isn't the same type of "family" relationship.
I will tell you what this has taught me FOR me. I don't know if I will ever really consider any il in my life real family. The actions of my ils over this and some other things since have proven to me that I was never a member of their family. So...they're dh's family. They're even part of my children's family---mother, father, sister, niece, nephew, gma, gpa, aunt, cousins. To me they are just my husbands family. I no longer feel any connection to any of them. When my kids marry...I wonder if I will hold myself aloof and will just consider their spouses spouses---as opposed to a member of my family.
I have to admit, I'd be loathe to make amends and move on if I was literally paying for my inlaws actions for the next 10-20 years in the form of a mortgage. It hardly falls under the category of one day you'll laugh about it does it? EG Hey remember that time I got mad at you for costing us an extra 40% on our mortgage haha...yeah not going to happen!
Quote from: Postscript on April 17, 2010, 03:36:29 PM
I have to admit, I'd be loathe to make amends and move on if I was literally paying for my inlaws actions for the next 10-20 years in the form of a mortgage. It hardly falls under the category of one day you'll laugh about it does it? EG Hey remember that time I got mad at you for costing us an extra 40% on our mortgage haha...yeah not going to happen!
It's more about feeling absolutely betrayed. Yes...I focus on the money...A LOT. But they didn't actually cost us the money. They just chose the person who cost us the money over us. It wasn't like we were asking them to choose between dh and his sister. (Which btw...they'd chose dh's sister in a flat second. They wouldn't even refuse to take sides...they'd just choose her. It really makes dh angry.)
I know what you mean the money is secondary but the money would just be a constant reminder. Seriously who chooses a contractor over their own son? As for choosing between children, I'm one of those strange parents who from the time they were little refused to choose one over the other. We do different things for each because they are different people with different needs but it all equals out in the end. I couldn't ever choose one over the other in that situation.
I've been thinking about expectations and I was reminded of this story.
My cousin married a guy who is a jerk. He's a cocky jerk. But he's not backstabbing about it, he doesn't say nice things to your face and then act the opposite, in fact you always hear EXACTLY what he's thinking. My Mom was having an open house party for my Dad's birthday. My Dad and a lot of his friends don't drink, so out of respect, my Mom offered coffee, tea and soft drinks, along with cake and snacks. So this cousin's husband, after hearing his choices of beverage said "I should have known I wouldn't get offered a beer in this house, I should have brought a cooler-full!" My Dad was SO angry about this. He was telling us the story (we didn't make it to the party - too far, bad weather) and my brother interrupted him and said:
"You were wrong!"
We were ALL shocked.
Then he continued and said "Look, this guy is a JERK, he doesn't hide it, and if *you* expect him to be anything but a jerk, then YOU are wrong."
I've found with my MIL too that I've changed my expectations of her - she just doesn't have it *IN* her to be a good grandmother - I can't get blood from a stone.
So maybe you guys should just change your expectations, some of your DIL's are NOT capable of what most people consider 'nrmal' behaviour.
Scoop, when I was young, I didn't realize, expectations of others were debilitating my life...all I knew were how things were supposed to be, according to the way I was raised and how I believed things were suppsed to be. Expectations caused me to either get along with others or not...if someone didn't think and feel as I did, I got upset, or if someone in the work place, didn't act a certain way, I was personally offended to the point that it hurt me terribly. I was either not doing something, being sometime, giving something or getting something.
Love is without trying, without ownership, without control...without duty, obligation or commitment...and that is how we love our children...unconditionally...
We are let down by the inactions or actions of someone..we didn't have our needs met...and we become disappointed when someone doesn't meet our expectations, which in turn leads us to hurt feelings of disappointment...due to a perceived sight which is unintention, however, that is how our brains process.
I believe when our expectations are not met, it can destroy a relationship. For instance...
When we marry, we have this idea in our minds, of how a marriage and relationship should be...it is our most intimitate knowledge, it is us, how we are...however, when someone acts out differently...other then the way we expect them to act or be, we are devestated...which is what I realized with my now ex-husband...it wasn't anything I did to cause him to do the things he did, it was in fact, who he was...he was raised without moral obligation to self and others.
Relationships, all relationships are hard...friends, relatives, in the work place, husbands, wives, children and inlaws..it's like when we plan a vacation with someone...and we automatically have this idea in our minds of how it's going to play out...however, the other couple, has they're own ideas...and those ideas clash once engaged in the vacation...I used to be very upset with people when they were not on time...I was always early and ready...but when I had to wait, it really made me angry...I thought, "how could they be like this? How could they do this to me?" But it wasn't me they were doing this to...it was simply how they were...all the time...
Expecations can set each individual in a relationship up to fail...everyone has they're own needs and ideas of how to be and believe...
I have this neighbor who never makes it in a relationship...some may call her controlling, however, she really gets upset, with her mate, when he doesn't do what she expects him to do, act or feel...I feel sorry for her, b/c all these men leave her...she was telling me the other day, she was wondering if her relatives checked on her home last week...and if they didn't she was really going to have a talk with them...maybe they were not able to get there due to some unforeseen event...but she didn't consider that...b/c they didn't do what she wanted them to do, she was very angry...
Her mother died...and her boyfriend didn't act the way she thought he should, so she broke up with him...
expectations, leads us to wanting something from other people that they can't always give...or be...we all want something from relationships...in any relationship there has to be a conscious shift from 'I' to 'we' and that's not easy.
When you compromise there is an element of disgruntlement which can sow the seeds of resentment ultimately resulting in dissolution which can be disastrous to the balance of relationship. Compromise and communication is essential, the lifeline of any relationship...
Just some ideas that were swimming around in that head of mine from your post Scoop...
Thanks
Creme
Quote from: Anna on April 17, 2010, 07:32:11 AM
Birdy, what do they tell you to do, at the marriage prep courses, when faced with money, holiday, & family issues. When I got married these courses didn't exist in our area.
Anna:
Basically they tell you that no matter what you do, you need to do it as a couple and a united front and to remember that you are now a core family unit.
They also tell you to realize that you can not and will not make everyone happy.
They also suggest that if there are some issues within the family, say we have a problem with my dad, the first attempt to work it out should come from me and not my DH. Only because as his daughter I could most likely say or handle him better then my DH. I also would know my dad. Then together as a group if it is still not worked out.
With regards to money - they don't say to much , but ask the couples to give them suggestions on what works for them. So we always told everyone how we set up or accounts and how we work our money together as a couple.
Anna - worst part about this whole prep course is that I would have to say 99% of the people didn't want to be there and didn't care or listen. They were only doing it because it was a requirement to get married with the catholic church. Which is such a shame.
Because both my DH & I took a lot away from it and took it serious. We were given a work book with activities do to together and apart, which opened up discussions for us.
I