WiseWomenUnite.com

Problem Solving => Grandchildren => Topic started by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 07:51:36 AM

Title: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 07:51:36 AM
Hi everyone. I am a DIL. I've been reading this site for some time now and would like to hear from some of you about a few things. I am a DIL for 8 years now with a very difficult MIL. I guess I will jump right in and try to combine 8 years of stuff as best as I can. I have 2 children ages 5 and 10. The 10 year old is from a previous marriage and dad is not involved but DH has adopted him. DH and I met and DH was a full-blown drug addict and alcoholic. I got pregnant 6 months after meeting DH and about a month later DH stopped drinking and drugging and has been sober since. We have been together 7 years and married for 1. DH was brought up my MIL as a single parent and MIL was in abusive relationships while DH was growing up and she worked 2-3 jobs and DH was by himself all the time as a very young kid to a teenager until he moved out got it lots of trouble and started drinking and drugging.

MIL and I had a great relationship. I was there for her when her mother died, helped her with almost everything, she went into a deep depression and I took care of her. Cooked her food, did her chores/washed her clothes etc... We got along great and when DS was born she took him once a week for the day to spend some quality time with him. Older son was in school all day. I never missed a birthday or holiday or even mother's day. Not because I felt I had to but because I cared.

MIL from day one has been prying, meddling and over-stepping her boundaries 24/7. This however has been the least of our issues. When she came to our house she would re-arrange things, throw out food she thought was bad for us, tell us what we're doing wrong with child rearing, etc. She even told me how I wasn't making a salad correctly or vacuuming the right way. She has taken food out of DS's hands if she thought it was unhealthy. He had a white chocolate lollipop one day and when she came over to our house she took it away and threw it out saying how bad sugar is for kids. When DS was a few weeks old we had to live with her due to a fire and our house needing to be repaired. She would get up in the middle of the night when DS was crying and take him out of my arms and feed him etc.  This went on for years. MIL over-stepping boundaries- but not quite being rude and nasty about it. Neither DH nor myself knew how to deal with any of this so we decided to go to counseling. We stayed in counseling for about 4 years, with 90% of our discussions involving MIL. At this time MIL was still taking DS once a week and sometimes on the weekends with my older son as well. This goes on for about 3 1/2 years. MIL even came to my PT job and showed me how to mop correctly because I wasn't mopping right I guess. HAHAHA

Oldest DS who was about 6 at the time starting telling us that MIL lets him swim in her pool (4ft, above his head) by himself because there are floats in there. I started asking 6 yr old DS what else he is allowed to do alone. And he said he waits in the car with younger DS while MIL goes grocery shopping, he can walk around neighborhood by himself because "he's smart and knows how to get back to grandma's house" etc etc. So DH decides to tell MIL that she can't do these things and that she needs to keep a better eye on the kids and never leave them alone. Ok, so we think she listens but she doesn't. I get a call from DH one day that says MIL calls him hysterical saying she doesn't know where DS who is 2 now. Come to find out she left him in the car alone (DS1 in school) and someone seen and called police and DS was taken and being held by CPS. DH went and picked up DS and no charges were filed, thank goodness. SO after that DH tells MIL that she can not take kids alone and she will have to see them when we have time to bring them over or she can come over our house and see them while we're home. We also noticed TONS of safety hazards at MIL's house as well.

MIL flips out on DH and doesn't speak to him for a few days. She finally shows up at our door in hysterics begging to see her grandchildren. We say come in, of course you can see them, but we're not comfortable with you taking them alone after the recent incidents. MIL's behavior takes a turn for the worst and now she is over-stepping boundaries more than ever and saying things like "I've know DH all my life, he likes xyz for dinner not abc" etc etc. She starts showing up at our house every day uninvited, without calling, etc. DH decides we should bring her to our counselor so we can let her know that her behavior is very invasive.

When she sees our therapist she breaks down crying saying that she just left baby in car for a minute, and she doesn't leave them alone, that DS1 is lying about the pool and neighborhood and that she's too involved in our lives because she thinks my way of parenting is not right, etc etc. She then all of a sudden turns on me and says I spend too much time watching tv and not baby. I spank kids all the time (lie) and that I feed them nothing but sugar and fast food (lie) Therapist tries to explain how she needs to take a step back and that DS is not her child etc etc. MIL will not accept therapist's advice and even disagrees with the therapist when she said DS was in danger in car alone. So counseling session to bury the hatchet- unsuccessful! It became a 2 hour session for MIL to criticize me and the things I do with my kids!

The next day she calls and says she's on her way over to see the kids. She comes over and I'm in the kitchen making dinner when I hear her saying to my oldest son "why did you tell your mom I leave you alone and let you swim in the pool by yourself. Now you're not gonna be able to come over anymore, and this weekend I'm going camping and you cant go because you told your mom everything and now she's not gonna let you." DH walks in the door 10 mins later and MIL leaves. I told DH what she said and he said not cool, shes probably mad at you so she's directing towards DS. He calls her and she denies it all.

DH and I go to therapist and she suggests DH tells MIL that he needs some space from her and so do the kids. She suggests telling MIL to see a therapist and in the meantime just taking a break from everyone. Well this is where things get real bad. 

MIL writes DH an email saying how it's all me manipulating him to ask for a break, etc and that I'm a butch and he can't seem to see it. She says that I'm nasty and vicious to her (never have been and DH told her not true), she says I'm mentally ill and needs help, DH is brainwashed by me, I have transformed DH, that she will tell DS's when they're older that I kept them apart. She also told DH that she believes I have the devil inside me and that I need to stopped and punished by God and she can't wait for the day something bad happens to me for all the pain I'm causing her, and that karma is gonna get me etc etc. She tells DH that she has a counselor and the counselor agrees that I am pure evil in human form and that there is no help for me and that she must get DH away from me!!!

Now DH decides that he was to be left alone- he asks MIL not to contact him in email, phone or person. He told her her loves her but he thinks she's consumed by not being able to see kids for a while and not being able to take them alone. He tells her to get a new counselor and after some time we'll re-visit this situation and come to an agreement as to when she can see and talk to kids once and awhile. She tells him off and hangs up the phone.

For the next few months MIL calls DH 3-4 times per day. Calls his cell, stops by his job, texts him many times per day, calls his other family members to get them to call DH and convince him to talk to her etc etc. She writes him letters in the mail, sends religious cards and drops off religious gifts for him at our doorstep with letters saying she's praying all the time for his eyes to be open about me and that I get what's coming to me. He calls her to tell her to stop showing up places, emailing, mailing gifts and letters and to give him space but she keeps on going. DH blocks her phone numbers and she calls from pay phones and other family members phones.

A few days later DH's aunt (MIL's estranged sister) calls DH and tells him that she heard it through the grapevine that MIL is filing paperwork to take us to court to try to get grandparents rights, and if its too late then she's moving 4000 from hometown to where we are going too and filing there!

DH and I have always wanted to move out of state to where my parents live- so what better a time than the present. So we decide to move and before we move we decide to have a small outdoor wedding ceremony so our families can see us wed before we move 4000 miles away. This is now 3 weeks before the move. Of course I don't want MIL there since she's not supportive of our relationship anymore, and I'm worried she will cause a scene. I told DH my thoughts and said here is an invitation for your mother. If you really want her there- write it out and send it. Well, he never did. So wedding day comes and what do you know MIL shows up and causes a scene. My brother calls the police and they remove her and we carry on. However, we notice that none of DH's family from his mom's side attends (who we were pretty close with)

A week goes by and DH's father who has been divorced from MIL all of DH's life calls DH and asks him to come to his house xyz night alone to talk. He said he wants to have heart to heart father-son talk before DH moves. Ok, no problem. Well what do you know? MIL showed up a few days prior on his doorstep in histrionics. MIL asks DH's father if they can set up DH to come over and she will be waiting for him. So DH decides to go to his fathers one night and walks in his dad's door and MIL is sitting there crying with his dad, aunt and uncle. MIL proceeds to tell DH how he's blind and etc etc. DH stays for about a half hour and leaves. Nothing changes.

Two weeks before move I get a call from police and they're telling me MIL called them and told them I have been driving around her house late at night and that she wants me to stop. I tell them I don't leave my house after dinner and that I've never driven by MIL's house without stopping by. A week after that police call me again and tell me MIL has called them again and reported an "incident" involving some harassment and that I need to come down and talk. Now I know what that means, so I say no and retain an attorney. The attorney calls police and tells them that the only way I'm going to station is with a warrant and an arrest. Never heard from police again after that. My thoughts are MIL was trying to stall move by having me arrested, you cannot leave state during an open charge. Then she would file for grandparent visitation time.

2 days before we move I go out to my car to grab boxes and MIL is sitting in her car next to mine. I don't know how long she was there but I go back into my house and call DH at work. He calls MIL and asks her to leave and she does. We make the 4000 mile move and for the next 9 months MIL calls from pay phones, emails gets our p.o.box and sends letters and cards begging DH to talk to her and in one letter saying how she's moving to new state too. We then get an attorney and write up a no-contact order. For the next 2 months we have peace and quiet from MIL. DH discovered an ulcer and I am now on blood pressure pills because I was feeling sick and sent to the e.r and my b.p. was 180/110. Most likely due to stress...

She got our p.o.box address from DH's dad's side of the family and sent DH many letters saying the same things she's always said and how she cant believe he married me, look how much problems I've caused in the family, that it's scary we're raising children and that she hopes we don't succeed in new state.

Over the course of about 18 months DH has written her emails and letters telling her that her behavior is dysfunctional and is making things worse for herself. It just seems like no matter what DH says, does or asks for nothing will get through to her. Still to this day I have never been rude to her in person or over email or phone or anything. Never once told her off or even "put her in her place."

After a few months we realize living in new state is not working out so we decide to move back to hometown. I was terrified of MIL at that point. DH thinks that we should let kids call her once in awhile and see her around holidays. He feels like that will stop her from obsessing over trying to see or talk to the kids and it will stop her from her erratic behavior and that giving her some time with kids will be enough for her to be satisfied. He also feels since both of our DS's have a relationship with her it would upset them to never see or hear from her again. He feels that if he brings the kids over there every once in awhile and supervises the visit then there is no harm in that.

My counselor feels that MIL has a toxic enmeshment with DH and that he needs to seek counseling to be able to get rid of guilt he's displayed and learn ways to deal with a mother like her.

I told DH that I'm not comfortable with the kids having a relationship with her at all since she's hoping for something bad to happen to me (their mother), trying to get DH to leave me, split up their parents. I am upset because I feel that given all she's said and done that she has bad intentions and wishes for bad things to happen to us. I just don't think that my kids should be around someone who doesn't have good intentions and doesn't bring positive things. I don't feel like she should be around the kids just because they're related and she loves them and they love her. I think you should base having someone in your kids life because they are a positive person and they have good intentions and have done good things. It doesn't sit well with me that someone who wants to pretty much ruin my kids lives inadvertently should spend any time even supervised with them.

My thoughts are it is a privilege to be involved in your grandchildren's lives not a right. I feel that she hasn't earned that right back and that she has ruined that privilege she once had by her behavior and actions the past few years. However, my kids want to see her. They are ages 10 and 5.  :-\So my question is to you MIL's and maybe even other DIL's what would you do if you were me and what are your thoughts on everything?

Thanks for reading this long rant. I tried to include mostly everything. I really do appreciate your feedback. I really want to do the right thing here...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 15, 2012, 08:16:04 AM
Welcome Trondogs :)

Please read the top three threads in the category Open Me First.  We ask all new members to do so not b/c there is anything wrong with your post.  It'll also help you to get a feel for WWU.

Wow, this is a lot going on.  Are you still in therapy?  I think you need to take care of you first, this sounds like stalking and can be very unhealthy for you to go through long periods of intense stress like that. 

I know that sometimes when we're in the thick of it is hard to see the big picture.  This is a woman who left a young child in the car, had the police involved, stalked you and your family and has threatened to take your children away.  She has clearly shown that she does not have your childrens (or you and DHs) best interest at heart and clearly means harm to your family.

So...No Way would I ever allow this woman near my children.  I do not care what the children think in this instance.  This isn't do you want to go see MIL who I don't like....this is a woman who is obviously dangerous.  No Way.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 08:22:59 AM
Hi Pam,  thanks for your reply. I will read the agreement now. I am in counseling now. My counselor suggested just having DH bring the kids over to her house around xmas, easter and a birthday each. I disagree with the counselor but DH agrees so....

I agree however, that there is no real immediate danger for the kids to go there for 2-3 hrs with DH 3 times per year BUT I do agree that she does not have nice intentions.

I am worried though that if I "don't allow" DH to take the kids there then he will resent me and it will destroy our marriage (me trying to control everything)
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 15, 2012, 08:51:00 AM
Trondogs,

There's a couple things 1) since she already threatened grandparents rights and if you or DH have a history of letting her visit, it only increases the likelihood should she actually file that she may actually get some sort of visitation rights in the future.  Without supervision.  It depends on your state too.  But also since you can't really prove any of the previous stalking (I'm guess there is no filed reports and/or convictions) and if you still let the kids visit....a court would be unlikely to take you seriously when saying she is dangerous if she does file.  If you and DH don't take steps, the law won't either.

2) While they may come to no physical harm while seeing her, I believe that kids do know and pick up on things.  The harm comes in by seeing their family split, their mother treated horribly and their father letting it happen.  That is harmful to children and skews their outlook on life. 

If one of your children were in this predicament, what would you tell them?  Would you want this for them?  For their children?
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Scoop on February 15, 2012, 08:52:24 AM
Trondogs: please don't reward your MIL's bad behaviour with exactly what she wants: your DH and DS's without you.

She endangered your children's lives in the past.  She tried to use emotional manipulation on the older one, which to me is emotional abuse.  She's bad-mouthed you (the MOTHER).  She has STALKED you.  She has filed false reports against you.  She has shown ABSOLUTELY ZERO remorse over her actions.

And you want to give her another chance?  REALLY?

To me, she's torn up her grandparent card. 

DH can certainly go and spend time with her, however the children should NOT be with her unless YOU are there.  And if she can treat you in a civil manner, and is actually NICE to the children (not manipulative), then you can try for longer or more frequent visits. 

Oh my, I'm not done yet it seems.  To me, at the point of endangering them, even before all of this other baloney, she tore up her GP card.  She left a 2 y/o alone in a car long enough for someone to notice him,  call the police and for the police to come and get him?  That's a good 20 minutes.  I would have pressed charges at the time.  I honestly don't understand why you seem so nonchalant about it.

Good luck, I think you're in for a fight, but I hope that you persist, for your children's safety and emotional well-being.

Scoop
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 08:56:53 AM
We filed a no contact order 6 months ago, but DH has since brought kids to see her. She admitted to the therpaist of DH and I that she left them in the car and thought nothing of it.

I am trying to keep the kids out of this mess by allowing them to see MIL 3 times per year with DH, not me going. I dont want them to know anything until they're adults regarding the things she has said and done.

However my gut is telling me somethings up soon and that it's a mistake for the kids to be going over there even with DH
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 09:07:07 AM
Scoop- I really am having a hard time allowing MIL to be around the kids. My biggest thing is that she has caused harm to my family in the past, was made away of the harm and still continued to do it. I'm on the fence because while there is no immediate danger going on while DH is supervising she may be behind the scenes again plotting to break my family up. DH says she's done it in the past and we should look past it because she isn't doing it anymore. However that is something that I can't look past and I am always going to be thinking "what if she's gonna do it again?"

I asked DH years ago (while watching a reality show lol) if I cheated on him, got into therapy and promised to never do it again, would he look past it and continue a relationship with me? He said "no" that he would never be able to look past it and would be wondering if it was going to happen again.

I wonder why he can see and say that with me but not when it comes to his mother?! Why does it not apply to me making a mistake (hypothetically) and not be forgiven and forgotton, but applies to his mother?
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 15, 2012, 09:11:14 AM
Trondogs, listen to your gut.  Read the book "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin DeBecker.

There is immediate danger with your MIL, it's all around you and the children.  The best way to keep them out of this mess is by protecting them from her.  If they are around her, they are in the middle of it.

Do not break the contact order.  People like this only escalate until they get what they want.  You and DH have shown her if she calls enough, does enough squawking at some point you two will give her what she wants.  You even broke a no contact order to calm her down, this is serious. 

If the adults can't handle her, how do you expect a child too?  Please, please reconsider placating her.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 09:21:32 AM
Pam- I agree 100% with you!!! It's DH who does not and now my new therapist who thinks DH should bring kids over there 3 times per year. I am getting sick to my stomach thinking about this. I have to allow my kids around this person even though I don't want it because 2 people- so far- think I should? Nonsense...now if only I can figure a way to stop the visits and get DH on my side of the fence- which could be near impossible because he is so dysfunctional with her and has a ton of guilt.

I am afraid that since DH has brought kids to her and they have talked to her a few times that re-instating that no contact order is darn near impossible and looks ridiculous and I'm sure DH will not go along with it BUT it should only take one parent to draw up and send the no-contact order right??
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 15, 2012, 09:29:42 AM
Yes, but a lot also depends on the state you are in.  There's a free website with real lawyers on it (they also aren't very nice, they just give legal facts so don't go looking for a hug lol) google "free advice forum" and there should be a category, maybe child custody that many posters will be able to help you with correct legal advice.

You're doing the right thing, trust your gut. 

Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 15, 2012, 09:30:37 AM
Oh and if you're not already doing it -- document *everything* related to her.  Everything, even miniscule stuff.  Make sure it is documented. 
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 09:34:20 AM
I have called an attorney in my state last year when this all started and she said that anyone can be granted visitation in my state to anyone's children however it HAS to be proved that the children would be emotionally devestated to not see _____ (whoever is petitioning for visitation) and its highly unlikely and MIL would be laughed at in court ESPECIALLY since it's been documented that she admitted to leaving kid in car

How do I get DH to agree??
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 09:36:11 AM
I have what looks like a stalker in purest form. I have written down all the times she tried to contact DH and I on ohone, in person and via email/snail mail, that led up to the no contact order.

Then we let kids talk to her and see her once and now we want no contact order in place again....I look like a fool :(
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Scoop on February 15, 2012, 10:02:12 AM
Trondogs - you have to trust your gut.

I know some families who have a rule: 2 yesses means yes, 1 no means NO.  So both parents have to agree to something before it happens, if one says no, then it's no.

Ask your DH what he would think about you doing something he's against with the boys (piercing their ears? getting a dog? putting them on the back of a motorcycle? - whatever he would be AGAINST).  And I'm not talking about something out of the blue, but something you've talked about and you KNOW he's against it and you do it anyway.  How would he feel about that?

Conversely, I would tell DH that I was willing to go on these visits but that WE, as a family, were leaving the first time anything insulting came out of MIL's mouth.  If she REALLY wanted to see the kids, she would be able to be civil to you.  If she can't control her tongue then you guys know that it's more important for her to run her mouth that it is to see your kids.

Personally, I wouldn't trust your DH to protect the kids.  If he was treated like that all of HIS life, he can't objectively judge that it's WRONG.  And that's furthered by the idea that he can't see that it's wrong to bring them there in the first place.  Also, men (and this might just be MY DH) don't have the same ability to multi-task as women do.  So he could be doing some work for MIL, or chatting with FIL, or watching TV and he won't hear what she says to them, or her leaving with them or whatever.

I repeat - TRUST YOUR GUT.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 15, 2012, 10:52:31 AM
T - You have had all kinds of professional, legal and law enforcement intervention before you came to our site. You are welcome here...and we aren't trained to top that. Your initial post has offered you a chance to be heard, again, in a different vunue. I hope that has helped. Please re-read the Agreement. You used unacceptable language in Par. 10 of your first post. If we can figure it out, you can't use it. Compliance to the Agreement is a requirement.

For what it's worth, I don't think you can create a viable marriage or raise your children successfully with that kind of pathological interference. What she does or doesn't do about counseling, you need to close the door...lock and bolt it. There are people who are too deeply abberated to respond to counseling and change. My guess, and I'm hoping I'm wrong, is that she is one of them. I see you as seriously up against how to survive what she has infested your lives with.

I don't, in rereading your first post understand Par. 2 because it doesn't seem to relate to the rest:

"MIL and I had a great relationship. I was there for her when her mother died, helped her with almost everything, she went into a deep depression and I took care of her. Cooked her food, did her chores/washed her clothes etc... We got along great and when DS was born she took him once a week for the day to spend some quality time with him. Older son was in school all day. I never missed a birthday or holiday or even mother's day. Not because I felt I had to but because I cared."
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 12:50:55 PM
Thanks Louise- My apologies for putting the asterisks in- I thought that was allowed. In the future could I just put ______, like a long line? Thanks.

Your sentence "I don't think you can create a viable marriage or raise your children successfully with that kind of pathological interference." is what I've been trying to say but couldn't put into words- thank you so much for that!!!

In par 2 I was trying to show that IMO I have been liked by MIL at one point and things weren't always bad until we decided to supervise visits. That I cared about MIL, and essentially feel a little betrayed that I was so kind and then almost over night MIL went from acceptance to divide and conquer. I also wanted to add in my thread that me, not DH, was the one who remembered MIL's birthday and mother's day, holiday cards etc, because I felt like I'd have another motherly figure to share stories with, recipes and who I would care for similar to my own mom and I did care. I wanted readers to know that I "allowed" MIL to see DS every week and that I didn't fit the typical stereotype of a "DIL". I guess I just do feel slightly let down- maybe my expectations were too high...idk...

It's good to get advice from MIL's and other women other than "jaded" DIL's. What I hope to get from this site is advice from the other POV to show me "maybe" I can not see farther than my own hand because I'm in the thick of it. I'm glad to hear that it doesn't seem like I'm the crazy evil DIL who doesn't allow her MIL access to her children. I needed a pep talk that I was doing the right thing. Thanks guys.

Sometimes though I feel empathetic towards my MIL even still because I wouldn't want to not see my grandkids, but then again I wouldn't do any of the things she's done and unfortunately probably will continue to do.

Thanks for your words of wisdom.

Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 01:05:16 PM
Oh, also wanted to add that everything I wrote has happened in the past. It's not continuing and DH and I are on the same page as things like: MIL not allowed in the house, MIL not given my phone number or the address where we live, DH won't discuss our marriage with MIL or answer any questions about our relationship and MIL is never to be left alone with the kids.

The only thing we can't see eye to eye with is that DH thinks MIL should see kids supervised and I disagree. I was told that I disagree only because of how much I dislike MIL but I don't feel that is the case here.

Should I put the past in the past and let her see the kids with DH or should I put my foot down and not allow any contact between MIL and DS's? I am confused as to what is the right or wrong thing to do. I'm skeptical about DH having the right answers because I was told my a therapist that he has deeply rooted guilt issues with his mom and the inability to have a functional adult realtionship with her.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 15, 2012, 01:11:51 PM
T - We don't do long lines either. Just find a word that fits that has no four letter connotation...like rotten, nasty, horrible...whatever. It's in the Agreement. I am surprised that it was ever OK, since MIL seems to always have been like that. Her conduct is what brought about your decision. I admire and respect your empathic feelings toward MIL, I just hope they don't get in your way. She has brought this about, you haven't. All of this is just my take, of course but I highly recommend survival mode. Your little family matters. It wasn't created for your MIL to use to express her pathology. Sending love...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 15, 2012, 01:19:23 PM
And you disagreeing about supervised visits is just what has to be, IMO. They can't be an option. Your kids have had more than enough and she is not going to be anyone but herself. She can't be. The whole situation has got to have had adverse affects on the kids and confused them. No more! You don't have to pass on compassion...just don't act on it.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 01:28:25 PM
Gotchya ;)

MIL's behavior was never OK but the unsolicited advice was ignored/tolerated and taken with a grain of salt by DH and I. Our relationship was good before because everything was going the way MIL wanted it to and I guess over the years her behavior escalated and just seemed to worsen when DH and I tried to change a few things that we allowed or didn't allow. So in a sense things weren't great because we were just adapting to MIL and what she wanted, and we were walking on egg shells to not upset her. Things were great for MIL I should say :)

My feelings of empathy and sympathy most definitely get in the way because I hate seeing people upset and I find myself 2ND guessing myself with MIL. Sometimes I think maybe I'm the one making a mountain out of a molehill or maybe I'm the messed up one for not wanting MIL to have a relationship with my kids. Or maybe all these years I have the wrong impression of MIL. After all DH should know her the best and he says my views are sometimes distorted about her. However, I am finding that DH doesn't seem to know his mother too well afterall. Everything he says she'd never do she ends up doing and he also even told her one time that he used to think she was fragile and easily upset until the day in counseling where she was very aggressive and lashing out at me.

Bottom line is I don't want my kids to have a relationship with someone of her character and DH does. I believe her behavior can change but her personality/character will always remain the same, thus not allowing anyone around her to maintain a healthy relationship with her. I look around her and I can't find allbit one person she has what appears to be a good/healthy relationship with.

DH says the kids would be upset to never see her again. Sadly, I have to agree. So I am stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 01:30:44 PM
So you're saying in your opinion that it's better to have no visits than even supervised visits- for the kids sake that is.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 15, 2012, 01:41:09 PM
Yes, that's what I'm saying.  The kids don't get a say right now.  They will understand when they are older.  However, if something happens to them again while in her care I don't think they will be quite as understanding.

There are many stories here of children who were abused by someone in their childhood yet blame their non abusive parent as they get older. 

And your MIL is abusive to you, your kids and your DH.  No doubt about it. 
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Doe on February 15, 2012, 01:44:45 PM
Quote from: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 07:51:36 AM
MIL and I had a great relationship. I was there for her when her mother died, helped her with almost everything, she went into a deep depression and I took care of her. Cooked her food, did her chores/washed her clothes etc... We got along great and when DS was born she took him once a week for the day to spend some quality time with him. Older son was in school all day. I never missed a birthday or holiday or even mother's day. Not because I felt I had to but because I cared.

MIL from day one has been prying, meddling and over-stepping her boundaries 24/7.

??  Is this the same MIL that you are talking about?
You had a great relationship with her when she was prying, meddling and over-stepping boundaries?
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Doe on February 15, 2012, 01:46:00 PM
oh, I guess that was addressed - sorry...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 02:00:19 PM
No prob Doe. Maybe my perception that she liked me was wrong, but I felt that in the beginning things were good between us and the unsolicited advice was so minuscule that it could go in one ear and out the other.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 15, 2012, 02:15:46 PM
I don't know, of course. I just think that your kids don't know what you do and can't decide a thing like that. Your history tells me that she is dangerously toxic. She tried to manipulate your son into no longer telling you the truth. It's just my take that supervised visits are going to carry something in them under the surface that will subversive. A sense that you aren't being fair to her and are maybe what, cruel? Things kids can't necessarily verbalize but get the intention presented. You and DH need to get on the same page. She is hurting more than your kids. I may be way off base. Who knows?
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Doe on February 15, 2012, 03:28:30 PM
Ok, my advise is: maybe to satisfy DH, not MIL, agree to visits with MIL only if you meet in public places - go bowling, out to eat, to a movie - somewhere very public with lots of witnesses people around.  DH stays with the kids and MIL the whole time.  I think I would be inclined to go along to supervise, too, but not engage MIL at all.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 15, 2012, 04:34:47 PM
D - Good plan, it seems to me. Meeting in the middle. Sometimes I am too black and white.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 04:37:29 PM
Louise- That is also my inkling. For years everything with MIL has added intentions. Nothing will be good enough for MIL until things are back to the way she wants them- kids every other weekend sleeping over for the whole weekend and once a week visits. Once DH gets the "whatevers" to tell his mom that she'll only be seeing them around 2 holidays and a birthday the you know what's gonna hit the you know what!!! Yes, DH hasnt't told her that she'll be seeing them only 4 times per year...he is avoiding telling her that...wonder why?! My guess is that he is afraid she's going to start back up to her old ways. As it is she calls him every other day to ask or text when will she see the kids? Each and everytime he ignores her texts and doesn't return her calls. Not something I would do to my mother. If I did my mother is sure to report me missing!!!

Doe- great idea- only what to do around xmas with all the gifts the kids will have to open? And most def I would go to keep an eye on her. The only reason I don't go now is because it's at her house and I am 100% uncomfortable at her house.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 15, 2012, 04:40:11 PM
T - Christmas is a long way off! Time to put tha on hold? Sending love...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 04:46:20 PM
Hahaha yes it is! DH just took them over to MIL's house 3 weeks ago to open their gifts so pardon me, it is still very fresh in my mind hahahaha.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 15, 2012, 04:49:16 PM
T - I'll bet it is!  :o
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Doe on February 15, 2012, 04:56:37 PM
Yeah, I would start thinking about Christmas maybe in November.   :)
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pen on February 15, 2012, 05:41:24 PM
Trondogs, welcome. I'm kind of confused by your story, but it does sound as if your MIL has done some things w/your DC that are not safe or responsible. I agree that your DC's safety and happiness are the most important thing here.

Regarding Christmas, why would you still want to accept "all the gifts" for your children from a woman you are cutting off? Like I said, I'm confused.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 15, 2012, 06:03:17 PM
Thanks Pen. We haven't let MIL take kids alone for almost a year and a half now due to the safety issue with her. We did a temp cutoff when her behavior turned to stalking and harassment. We moved 4000 miles away and now we're back to same hometown as MIL and DH and I let kids call her and get Xmas gifts from her. We're not in a cut off right now because DH does not agree with that. So for right now the kids have seen her once and talked to her once in the past 5-6 months.

I guess my dilemma lies with my DH at this point. He thinks kids should see her while he supervises around major holidays. I on the other hand do not think the kids should have any contact with MIL at all.

I would like to do what's best for the kids but I'm not so sure what that is and I'm seeking out help here too.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Scoop on February 16, 2012, 05:37:45 AM
Trondogs - why won't YOU go and supervise these visits?  I think this is important to the discussion.  I can see several reasons for not going, but all of those reasons (in my head) seem like they should come with the addendum of "and I don't want my kids exposed to that either".

Also, how much do you trust your DH to adequately supervise the boys?  My DH couldn't do it, to MY satisfaction.  And it would be EASY for me to prove to him too.  I would step back and every time DD asked him for something and he ignored her, I would point it out.  I would also explain girl-bullying to him and explain that he likely wouldn't even SEE it or recognize it.

Good luck - be strong!
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 16, 2012, 05:44:40 AM
Scoop- I am very uncomfortable around her. I am sure I could suck it up and go. I'm not even sure if I'm allowed in her house anymore...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: elsieshaye on February 16, 2012, 05:55:26 AM
TD, maybe that should be part of the negotiation:  "Sure, honey, we can have occasional supervised visits with your mother, but I have to be there too."  If she won't have you in her house, no visit.  If protecting your children is the goal, then I do feel it's important you be there as well and don't leave it all up to your DH, who has issues of his own with his mother and can't really be there 100% for your kids in this situation.  Particularly since he disagrees about the kind of protection they need from her.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pen on February 16, 2012, 06:53:33 AM
And for goodness sake stop accepting gifts from her. It sends mixed messages to your children and to your MIL.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Doe on February 16, 2012, 07:23:19 AM
Since none of us exist in DH's head to know what exactly his issues are, I suggest taking a simpler approach to this: 

Trondog loves DH and DH loves his Mom.
DH cares about keeping both of his families intact.
MIL is difficult and untrustworthy.

Trondog, I think you can support your DH by not cutting your MIL off entirely but it will be a hassle to make it work.  I do think the extra effort of heavily supervised visits will pay off  and when she'd dead, you won't second guess yourself.

Talk about difficult,   we got a call one day that my MIL was acting strange so DH went to her home.  He called me and said she had mild dementia and he didn't want to put her in a nursing home,  he wanted to bring her home.  I said OK and for the next 5 years, I had what you'd call a difficult MIL situation in my home as I was raising toddlers.  But DH couldn't put her in a nursing home, I couldn't deny this last gift from my DH to MIL.   Just telling you this because families have all sorts of difficult relatives but there are ways to keep the family in tact if that's important to someone.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 16, 2012, 07:40:03 AM
Quote from: Pen on February 16, 2012, 06:53:33 AM
And for goodness sake stop accepting gifts from her. It sends mixed messages to your children and to your MIL.

I agree.

I also think that if you find her uncomfortable to be around so much so that you actually won't be around her -- then why should your own children be exposed to that? 

If anything, I think maybe coming up with a list of boundaries with DH might help ease your mind.  Maybe something like if she wants to see the kids for holidays the rules are 1) she has to invite 2 weeks in advance 2) public place 3) no more than 2 hours 4) both parents must be included in the invitation.

Other than the public place and 2 hours, both 1 and 4 are reasonable things that most people do.  2 and 3 are to protect you and the children and in this case are reasonable.

If she cannot or will not abide by the boundaries then it's not you making it difficult for her to see the kids, she is making it difficult for herself.  At this point IMO there needs to be some shift away from "Trondog stands in the way of seeing the kids" and the boundaries will make it clearer for all involved.

Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Doe on February 16, 2012, 07:46:34 AM
Good ideas, Pam.  My only tweak would be to not announce the boundaries to MIL because that would be just another thing for her to fight.

Decide on the boundaries with DH and each time newly, when a get together is planned, hold fast to them.  If MIL doesn't want to meet in a public place, then it's "sorry, maybe we can make it another time...". 

jmo
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 16, 2012, 09:05:55 AM
My take: I keep coming back to protecting the kids from such intense pathology...which they have had way too much of already and can't possibly understand. To me, that's the bottom line. Supervised visits if they work...stopped permanently if they don't. Both parents present. Not because it feels good but because the kids deserve it and  because the dynamics between DH and MIL can't possibly be healthy. He grew up with her. Public place without exception. You should never go into her home again. Gifts need to stop. They manipulate and intimidate kids. Your marriage can't be about MIL; her hangups, her needs, her perceptions, her behavior and, yes, her illness. For it to survive, your marriage needs to be about your relationship and your parenting. Sending love...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 16, 2012, 09:21:50 AM
Loise- That sounds like it's going to work well. Hopefully DH agrees. I'm not counting on it though; not because he's a jerk or a momma's boy but because I don't think he knows right from wrong when it comes to his mother, by no fault of his own but because you're right he grew up with her. When it comes to his mother his way of thinking and living, until he gets counseling is most likely dysfunctional.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 16, 2012, 01:39:51 PM
I agree, Doe.  She doesn't need to know the rules or have them discussed with her.  Talking doesn't work with people like this, action does.

Trondogs, my own MIL is mentally ill and in the early days DH would defend some of her dysfunctional behaviors or try to "gaslight" me (unconsciously) because this what he knew and was his normal.

A counselor we saw once said to him "your wife loves you, clearly loves you.  A lot of people would not stay in a situation like this and run.  So why do you think her boundaries are unreasonable?  What gives you cause to think what she's saying/doing is out of spite rather than love for you and your marriage?"

He told me later that this hit him like a ton of bricks.  Perhaps because I'm not the one who said it to him lol.  Maybe another therapist is in order.  DH refused therapy for a long time but I held firm to my boundaries and didn't back down.  You can read through a lot of my posts here, it was a long struggle.  It still is hard. 

Good luck to you and I really hope you read the book "The Gift of Fear."  I hope it will help you.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pooh on February 16, 2012, 02:10:13 PM
Welcome Tron.  When it came to the protection of my children growing up, I wouldn't have cared who it was that purposefully put them in danger....they go bye bye.  And yes, purposefully includes doing really stupid, common sense stuff.  You don't leave little children in a car unattended...period.  No excuses in my opinion.  I can take alot and people can do all kinds of stuff to me, but you don't mess with my children's safety.

I would be having a bigger issue with DH not seeing this than I would with MIL right now.  I know you are trying really hard to satisfy everyone and that's really hard sometimes.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 16, 2012, 02:25:08 PM
Pam- I ordered that book on-line last night, it should ship in a few days.

Pooh- I think DH can't get on the same page with me right now because he is very dysfunctional. So for now, until he gets some good counseling, I am going to be the one to call the shots, nothing personal DH but for now I need to borrow "the pants" in this family. If my kids didn't have a strong bond with her already there would be a total complete 100% cutoff (there still may be if she can abide). Since they do I will allow a public get together around Xmas, Easter (we go to my parents state for thanksgiving) and each birthday for 2 hours. With me and DH so kids don't see the division of family. This though brings me to a question of presents.

Xmas, Easter and a birthday brings presents and an Easter basket. The kids have been given an Easter basket every year of their life from MIL, while I think that's strange, since the "bunny" is supposed to do it, THE PARENTS of the child, it has become something that the kids are accustomed to. Of course I could put and end to it, but I see it as more things for the kids to enjoy and have fun with. At any rate- I know it would be wise to not accept gifts from MIL, how would that work in this situation where MIL is only seeing the kids on 3 gift giving "days"?
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 16, 2012, 02:26:07 PM
*can't abide...I meant
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Doe on February 16, 2012, 02:38:14 PM
Quote from: Trondogs on February 16, 2012, 02:25:08 PM
Xmas, Easter and a birthday brings presents and an Easter basket.

Why not make the get together at a time that's farther away from Easter?  Say, a couple of weeks after?  Let her know you have other plans for Easter this year but you can get together say, closer to the end of April.  The 5yo will likely forget it soon enough and you can just tell the 10yo that you're having a family celebration this year.  Just a suggestion, not telling you what to do..

Isn't the 10yo a little old for "Easter Bunny"?  My kids liked the candy but they were just as happy to get a lot more candy on sale the next day after Easter was over!  :P
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 16, 2012, 04:08:02 PM
I'm sure the 10 year old knows there's no Easter bunny but isn't saying anything for the 5 year old.

The "Easter" visit won't actually be on Easter and it probably will be a few weeks after like the "Xmas" visit was, but MIL will have an Easter basket for each kid. Should we change that since it will be an acceptance of gifts that was reccommended I stay away from?
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Doe on February 16, 2012, 05:12:02 PM
Well, I'm not one of the "refuse gifts" people.   Maybe you could just have the Easter Bunny arrive on Easter and let the children know that the gifts that MIL gives are from MIL. 

By allowing her to act as EB all  these years, you've essentially given your approval and consent imo.  I think you need to decide what you want for yourself.  I think she sees your indecision and takes over, like an alpha dog.  If you have something in place that you believe  is right for your family, then there's no question that what she wants is secondary to that.  If you think it's more important for the kids to have the gifts from her, I'm sure she picks up on that.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 16, 2012, 05:40:57 PM
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. We've never had MIL play the Easter bunny. The reason I never really liked her giving the Easter basket on Easter (after the kids get their's at home from me and DH as the Easter Bunny) is because I think it could confuse the kids. In my family only the Easter Bunny got baskets for the kids :)

My questions is should I refuse gifts outside holidays?
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Scoop on February 16, 2012, 06:42:29 PM
Trondogs - you can't accept gifts if you don't see her.  Your Dh has to leave the gifts behind when he leaves, or he has to stop at the Goodwill on the way home.

I hope you're not still entertaining the idea of your kids spending ANY time with her?
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 16, 2012, 06:54:59 PM
Hi Scoop- I like Louise's idea. The only reason I'm still entertaining the thought is because I get the idea out of my mind that a few times per year supervised with DH and I in public can't hurt and is enough to satisfy my kids.

A huge huge part of me is fighting with myself however because I really don't think MIL deserves to see kids and shouldn't but my kids don't deserve to be sad because MIL is a lunatic
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 16, 2012, 08:32:07 PM
I'd suggest you not get into what MIL deserves or doesn't. She is, IMHO, one sick gal. Focus on what will work for your little family. I know it's a fine line to walk between resentment and compassion. Turn in another direction...you an your own. Sending love...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Scoop on February 17, 2012, 05:42:05 AM
Trondogs - you say that MIL is a lunatic.  Do you want your children to spend even a couple of hours with a LUNATIC?

Also, I think you should change how you think about it.  It's NOT you hurting the children by keeping them away from MIL.  It's MIL hurting them, because she can't (won't?) control herself better.

You know that you're not being spiteful, that if she was nicer, or if she was even able to be CIVIL for a couple of hours, you would not stand in the way of a relationship.

So let DH go see her a few times and if he says that she's apologized and is contrite, then YOU can try having a visit with her.  And if she can hold her tongue through a few visits, then you can TRY a visit with the kids.  But she's on notice.  Until then, I think it's okay to tell the kids that Gma is in "time out" for a while.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pooh on February 17, 2012, 05:52:59 AM
My take on the gifts is that you just still let her buy at those holidays and give them to the children.  Here's where my head is on that.  I detested my horrible MIL, but my kids loved her.  They wanted to see her and if I had told her she couldn't buy them gifts, it wouldn't have hurt her, it would have hurt them.  They wouldn't have understood the logical side of it, they would have just seen it as the GM they loved didn't buy them anything any more.  Now, I'm reading it's only a few times a year, on special occasions.  It doesn't sound like she's being extravagant and sticking to the holiday theme?  I would take myself out of the equation and think what would be best for my children.  I'm saying this because of the fact that you are trying to keep the relationship with the children alive.  If you had cut her off, I would feel differently, but if you are going to foster the relationship between them (supervised visits), then I would have a very hard time saying no to something the children wouldn't understand.

By the way, the easter baskets?  My MIL did the same thing and I never understood it, but it was just something she did.  Doe, my Sons got Easter baskets until they moved out!  YS even got one last year, because he was in on leave and he was 20!  We still do stockings every year too! 
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 17, 2012, 05:53:21 AM
DH said that the visit a month ago she was doing nothing but coloring wit them, ate lunch, opened their xmas presents and being very "normal", civil, nice etc. for the 3 hours he was there.

She has never apologized and just a few months before we moved back, during one of her religion preaching phone calls to DH where she cries and rants and raves she said she still has never done anything wrong...

I don't want my kids spending time with a lunatic and I've expressed that to DH and my new therapist (who I've only seen once though) and they both feel like supervised visits are ok. Now they are making me feel that I am the "lunatic" or the one doing the wrong thing.

Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pooh on February 17, 2012, 05:56:13 AM
You're definately not a lunatic Tron.  I would say the therapist is seeing your DH as wanting to have the relationship and wanting the children to have the relationship, so is advocating supervised visits.  If someone is going to do something, even if it's wrong, the best we can do is try to help them remain safe while they are doing it. 
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 17, 2012, 05:59:47 AM
Pooh- The kids visited her about a month ago to get their Xmas gifts. Since then she has continued to call and text DH asking him, telling him, she wants to do crafts for valentines day, she has stuff for them for valentines day, can you bring them over for valentines day etc etc etc. I can see her douing the same for: grandparents day, st patricks day, united nations day, bring your child to work day etc etc hahaha. DH ignores her calls and texts and doesn't return a call or a text. So valentines day comes and goes. Although I have disagreed with DH in the past with him ignoring and avoiding her, he may be doing the right thing. With someone like her it seemed the more we spelled things out (rules, visit dates etc) the more she did the obsessing and caused problems and stress on us.

Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 17, 2012, 06:02:35 AM
Pooh- I wish I could take away all visits and have DH bring me to counseling and him try to "persuede" me to let kids see her rather me having to "persuede" him to not have the kids around her.

You may be right. I wonder that if I went into the counselor's office and the kids weren't havy any contact with MIL if the counselor would advise me to start the visits up. I doubt it. I will ask her though :)  Or maybe switch therapists.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pooh on February 17, 2012, 06:08:35 AM
I think that would be the thing to do!  I'm totally guessing but if the therapist did tell DH not to see her and DH was adamant about having the relationship, the therapist would have had to switch gears and try to figure out how to help the relationship.  You can tell someone what they are doing is wrong until your blue in the face, but at some point, you reach acceptance that they are going to do it anyway, so how can I help?

Don't be surprised either if the therapist does tell you to go to the visits and help.  You love your DH and want to be with him, so the therapist would probably see that to help your relationship with each other, you would need to be supportive of his decision.

I'm not saying DH is right, just trying to see where a therapist, who is hearing from DH that he wants this relationship would try to help facilitate it in a healthy way.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: jdtm on February 17, 2012, 06:16:35 AM
QuoteDH ignores her calls and texts and doesn't return a call or a text.

Sounds to me as if your husband is dealing with the situation as best he can.  As Dr. Phil says if there is a problem with any of the parents, it is the adult child of those parents (not the DIL or SIL) who needs to take command.  From what you have written, it appears as if your husband is doing his best.  After all, I suspect he loves his mother and is trying to best to please her, as well as you and his children.  That being said, Dr. Phil also says that if a husband has to choose between his parents and his wife/children, the smaller nuclear family must take precedence.  Sometimes the best solution is choosing from the better of two evils. 
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 17, 2012, 06:23:23 AM
Pooh- I think you're right. Thank you. I've been wondering why in the world a therapist would suggest building a realtionship with MIL and the kids. But it's only because she thinks there already is a realtionship. To be honest I don't think there is a big of a realtionship between MIL and kids and DH thinks, or as there once was (years ago, in the past) In the past 9 months kids have seen her once and talked to her on the phone 3 or 4 times. I suspect as my kids get older they will be less interested in visiting with "granny" just out of natural pre-teen behavior anyways. I think video games, hanging out with friends and tv will soon trump siting at gramma house for a visit. 

JDTM- I think husband knows the best way to deal with MIL is to pretend she doesn't exsist. Perhaps I need to learn to do the same as him!
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 17, 2012, 07:54:18 AM
Would it be inappropriate and uncalled for if I sent MIL a short email that said:

You'll see the kids at a public place for 2 hours around Christmas, Easter and around each one's birthday. When you see them if you mention them coming over, sleeping over or meeting you somewhere other than on those holiday's the visits will stop completely.

It's just that DH hasn't told her these things and the last time she saw them (a month ago) she was telling them how she'll see them in 2 weeks and that they can sleep over for the weekend etc etc. Setting them up for dissapointment when either DH or I tell them no. Or do you think this needs to come from DH?

Like I said earlier that the more you say she can't do things the more obsessed she becomes and the dramatics and unhealthy behavior starts all over again?

I just don't want her saying those things to the kids. I asked DH why he has a problem saying that to her and he said "i don't know, but that's why I'm going to going to see a therapist" BUT regardless these words need to be spoken and spoken before the next phone call or visit.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Doe on February 17, 2012, 08:05:58 AM
Tron-

Maybe it's time you had a talk with your kids about their GM.  They need to know that you are the boss of them, not her.  If she says they can do something, they need to know that they have to ask you if it's ok before they can count on it.  You can tell them that GM often promises things that she can't deliver and you don't want them to be disappointed.

I think it's ok to let your kids know that "We all love GM, but she's a little nutty at times" and therefore,  they need to check with you before making plans with her.  You don't have to spell it out, but I think it's ok to point out that GM has some problems and sometimes she isn't thinking straight.

Your email with that wording will probably set her off again but if you just tell your kids, don't listen to GM, that might handle the situation.

Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: jdtm on February 17, 2012, 08:40:08 AM
QuoteWould it be inappropriate and uncalled for if I sent MIL a short email that said:

You'll see the kids at a public place for 2 hours around Christmas, Easter and around each one's birthday. When you see them if you mention them coming over, sleeping over or meeting you somewhere other than on those holiday's the visits will stop completely.

No comment - you already know the answer ...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pooh on February 17, 2012, 01:44:56 PM
Are the kids telling you what GM said or DH?  I think if it's the kids saying it to you, then what Doe said would be the best way to handle it.  I think if it's DH telling you what she said, then DH needs to handle it.  I wouldn't send any email because she's already blaming you.  I think she'll just use that to say, "See, see how she is!"
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 17, 2012, 02:01:49 PM
I agree about the email. We are all learning not to try to deall with conflict that way. It often creates bigger problems. Sending love...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 17, 2012, 02:05:11 PM
My oldest son and other family members are telling me what MIL said. I see what you're saying about the email backfiring in my face, but she's already told me, DH, both sides of the family "see, see how she is" so at this point it's like who cares if I come off as a you know what anymore, at least MIL won't be telling the kids that she's gonna see them in 2 weeks when they sleep over. I'm not goint to send it but DH should...even though I seen it with her before; DH only sent it because his wife (me) made him.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 17, 2012, 02:17:00 PM
My guess is that it will just make something awful, worse. You don't need that.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 20, 2012, 11:06:55 AM
Trondogs, if your oldest knows what she is saying about you -- she *is* actively abusing him.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 20, 2012, 12:02:29 PM
The sheriff of the town in the state I used to live in just went to my parents house a courtesy to tell them I have a warrant in the new state. My parents house is the address on my license. I called an attorney and he said tomorrow, after the holiday he will be able to get all the info.

Let's see what MIL is doing now...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 20, 2012, 12:19:03 PM
Now DH and I are re-instating, or sending a new no-contact order rather, from the state we are back in now. The old no-contact order was signed, notarized and sent from the old state.

DH said that he is done, he's had enough and this is coming to end for MIL now.

Lying to police is going to hold severe consequences for herself, not just legally but by her son as well. He is done with her now.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 20, 2012, 12:27:33 PM
T - Please remember that he will need a lot of support in sticking to that because of their history. He might get added support in counseling. I honestly don't remember if he has tried that or not. Sending love...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Karina53 on February 20, 2012, 05:51:53 PM
I'm sorry for what you are going through. It sounds awful. And it sounds very similar to my OD's MIL. They have finally broken away from her toxicity, but it was awfully stressful on my DD. She went through hell. I told her early on that I thought her MIL had Narcissistic Personality Disorder. They went to a counsellor who helped them, and also told them that MIL has NPD. This isn't a simple case of being vain, but, rather, a totally disordered way of looking at and dealing with the world. I grew up with an older sister who also has NPD, and it took me years to find a counsellor who knew what it was. My sister wreaked havoc in my live, and it wasn't until I was in my late 30's that I finally began to understand it all. That was 20 years ago. About 15 years ago, I had to go "no contact" with her for my own sanity and peace of mind. Some people thought it was an awful way to treat a sister, but my responsibility is to myself and my own family. If you google NPD you will find some good sites, and one or two not. They have really helped me be strong in my own recovery of N abuse. Your MIL sounds so much like my daughter's MIL. They have finally gone no contact, and plan on moving to another state. I'm so happy for them. After 5 years of marriage, they finally get to really live their own lives and be their own family. You deserve the same.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 20, 2012, 06:35:31 PM
Thanks Karina. I too wondered if my MIL has undiagnosed NPD. I've done some reading on it in the past and she fits a lot of the description and has a lot of the characteristics.

Lousie-  This police thing is never going to amount to me getting in trouble. She's strictly self-sabotaging herself...but oh well it was only a matter of time.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pen on February 20, 2012, 06:39:52 PM
Even if she's shooting herself in the foot, you still have to go through the drama. Thinking of you, Trondogs. I hope it is all resolved very soon.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 20, 2012, 06:46:52 PM
Pen- that is true. I've realized that no matter what MIL is going to do what she wants. Even an r.o. or even a few days in jail won't stop her if she doesn't want to stop. DH just needs the mental tools and support that hes doing the right thing, even if it feels wrong to him. It's going to feel wrong to him because he's lived in her dysfunction for 20 years, but he has to trust me that I am right and only want our kids to have the best people in their lives.

It's definetly going to get worse (again) before it gets better but allowing MIL to do what she wants so she doesn't flip out is not the answer. Besides, she will never be satisfied and always pressuring more time, more days, more visits, longer visits, outings, and sleepovers eventually.

Better to have the drama minus her toxicity than have the drama with her in her "circle"
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pooh on February 21, 2012, 06:54:31 AM
This may have been a blessing in disguise.  Not that it's going to be any fun for you sorting it all out, but if she's lied to police, that may be the push DH needed to see how harmful she can be. 
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 21, 2012, 08:41:22 AM
Right, and let me tell you I will sue her for attorney's fees. It's not fair that I have to dish out money for nothing. Also, I will be filing charges for lying to police. She's opened this can of worms.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pooh on February 21, 2012, 09:53:16 AM
Also, you might want to ask your attorney about your no-contact order.  I know here, once they are issued, they automatically work both ways.  If DH has been voluntarily seeing her while the order is in place, here...he would be violating it.  Again, different states are different, but something to maybe ask about?
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: elsieshaye on February 21, 2012, 02:23:53 PM
I think Pooh has a good suggestion - it would be useful for you, I think, to get a complete picture of what the possible outcomes are so you can protect your family adequately.  It might also make it more concrete for your DH if it's coming from someone other than you that the contact with MIL has repercussions.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 21, 2012, 08:37:17 PM
The original no contact order was in old state.

Anyways after todays events I am 100% confident things are going to start looking up for us!!

So my attorney called me this morning and says I have a bond and that I need to turn myself in and that I have harassment and threatening charges brought against me from MIL.  So we went right down to station and dished out a few thousand dollars and I have a court date in 2 weeks.

Now dh is beyond angry and calls MIL. She does not answer, instead she texts him that she can't talk right now. Dh texts her back and says "now that you've lied to the cop and my wife has been arrested you have signed and sealed this with me and you're never going to hear from me again." MIL responds: "that's your choice. You guys cant hurt me anymore!!!!"

I have never seen dh so mad. This is a blessing that comes at a cost for me. Since MIL has made this up dh said that after the charges are dismissed that we're filing a civil counter-suit for attorney fees and bond money we dished out in her little charade she pulled.

And MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!!! Finally a therapist who thinks MIL should not ever see the kids and that dh needs to cut her off!!! Dh's own counselor herself. Dh started therapy tonight and after a 2 hour meeting he comes home and tells me everything his therapist said.

Dh told me he is never going to speak to her again and he doesn't even care. Almost a decade later dh finally gets it and for the first time in my life I can say I honestly feel he has!
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 22, 2012, 02:24:11 PM
Trondogs, please have DH stop talking to her immediately.  She can use his texts today in court, if it comes to that.

Stop all contact, change phone numbers, shut down social media etc until this is resolved is what I would tell you if you were in my area.  Not a peep to anyone who even knows her, all communication that could go to and around her needs to be road blocked immediately.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 22, 2012, 08:50:36 PM
Pam- it is too late. When DH told me he called his mom and texted her I frealed out a little and told him he shouldn't have done that because now MIL is going to have him arrested too!!! Of course I get the "she wouldn't do that to me" look.

Well what do ya know?! Cop calls DH today and says he needs to stop texting his mom or he's going to arrest him for intimidating a witness and tampering with police evidence. I am NOT surprised at all.

I asked DH what he is going to do if MIL texts him, calls him or emails him and he said he's calling the police.

It's funny how for the past few years I've been telling him his mom's going to do this or his mom's going to do that and every time he says she wouldn't do that. HA! Right- guess what... everytime she does exactly what I expect and exactly what DH doesn't think she'll do.

I wonder what is next :( GP rights I think
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 23, 2012, 08:39:32 AM
Yes, document everything.  And all of you stay far, far away from her.  I'm so sorry you all are going through this.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 23, 2012, 08:45:18 AM
Thanks Pam. I'm sure I will not be convicted of anything it's just the financial burden now...I mean who  has 6,000 to hand over for something like this... not us!

DH is finally done. He said he will never speak to her again. I think of my mom and I couldn't imagine not speaking to her for 2 days let alone having to let her go from my life forever. It is so sad for everyone involved that MIL is this menatally ill...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Pen on February 23, 2012, 09:36:12 AM
Trondogs, this is truly heinous....and to think my DIL "just doesn't like" us for no discernable reason. Oh, if only she knew how bad it could be. My thoughts are with you and DH; keep your eyes on the prize.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 23, 2012, 09:39:08 AM
My mother just called and said that his mother emailed her
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: pam1 on February 23, 2012, 09:56:56 AM
Call the police and file a report.  Your mother should send a cease and desist letter to her.  And keep copies of everything.  Do not respond personally at all to her. 
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 23, 2012, 10:02:40 AM
I'm not calling the police. The cop in my town is the cop that is investigating this case and is the cop that arrested me the other night. I meet with my attorney on Tuesday and I will ask him what my mother should do. I bet if my mother doesn't respond she will keep on emailing her and eventually there will be a whole load of emails to bring where the plaintiff is trying to contact the defendant's family members...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 23, 2012, 10:14:46 AM
Most email programs have an email-blocking feature. Mine at Google does...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 23, 2012, 11:02:54 AM
ID - I'm suggesting here that we do the best we can to support T without getting hooked on the drama. That isn't going to help, IMO.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 23, 2012, 11:04:15 AM
And everything is to be done with my attorney anyways. I just want to vent that I know this is not the end and of course I'm nervous about what is to come.
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: luise.volta on February 23, 2012, 11:12:30 AM
Of course you are. What a nightmare! Sending love...
Title: Re: DIL here, would like input from the other POV
Post by: Trondogs on February 23, 2012, 11:20:31 AM
Thank you. Stressing out about attorney fees in itself is a nightmare!!!