WiseWomenUnite.com

Hi Everyone,

I was looking for support and googled "lying daughterinlaw" and that is how I found your forum.  I am going to try to make my intro as brief as possible but so much has happened in the last 8 months. My 21 yr old oldest son has been married for 2 yrs and the entire time he has been stationed overseas.  They have a 1 yr old child together.  At first, I thought my DIL was the best thing ever, I have 3 sons so she was like the daughter I never had.  She has now turned into my worst nightmare!

I went to visit them last fall to meet my new grandchild and everything went great. We had a fantastic time!  One month later that all changed.  My son facebook chatted with me that DIL got mad at him and said she was going to leave him and wanted a divorce. He told me that she does that quite often, gets mad and then threatens him that she will leave. I was very careful with what I said to him because I never ever wanted to get involved with their relationship- I just wanted to be supportive to my son. He didnt understand why she got so mad, said she was used to having everything that she wanted and that he tried to tell her that they cant always have it all. I said and this is exactly what I typed, " I never pictured her as being high maintenance, i pictured her as being simple like me"  He responded, "no mom, she is not high maintenance, she just wants things that we cant get right now" I said okay and that was that. Well, you can see where this is going. She went on his computer later and read our chat and took things I said the wrong way and she totally made me out to be this horrible person. I didnt know this until a few days later when I asked my son why did he seem to be ignoring me online. He then told me that DIL had sent me an email. I read it and I couldnt believe what I was reading. She said I called her high maintenance, that I was basically calling her crazy because I recommended that they go to counseling and that only crazy people go to counseling and that she had never felt so backstabbed in all her life. She is 20 years old.  So my son stood up for her and said that she didnt twist around what I wrote, that what i said was pretty straight forward. So I write DIL back, I  thought it was a fantastic heartfelt supportive email, trying to tell her how i can relate to some of her feelings- I have been the young, military wife before who hated where we were stationed. I totally get it. Well, I dont hear anything back. I write to my son and tell him how it hurts that he is not talking to me.  He writes back and tells me that I have always played the victim, that I tried to get DIL to feel sorry for me with my email. He said that I have always done this and the only thing I couldnt do was make him hate his Dad but I brainwashed my other 2 sons to hate their dad. ( their dad left me in 2002 for a younger model - sound familiar Pooh?)  Just like Pooh's story my son and DIL are all about his Dad and stepmom and I am on the outs now. So, I am trying to condense this- the holidays were horrible.. I didnt hear from him. I found out from my youngest that she came to town while my son was deployed. She ignored my emails so I showed up on her parents doorstep. She was standoffish at first then seemed to warm up. I saw her and grandbaby on my Mother's birthday, my younger sons bday and 2 days before she left to go back overseas. In 3 months, I saw my grandbaby for a total of about 9 hours. I tried to go by her place on valentines day to give her candy and my grandbaby stuffed toy and it felt very awkward. Although she apologized for what happened, something still didnt seem right and I still wasnt hearing from my son. I tried emailing him in January and February and then he blocked me on facebook. She went back overseas end of march. I hear nothing from any of them- nothing from him for my april birthday, nothing from him on mothers day . I finally heard from him  a week after mothers day. My middle son wrote something on facebook (my oldest and his wife deleted me and my middle son off their facebooks) but my middle son doesnt have his wall marked private, so anyone can read it.  He wrote a post about the male part of the body, I am sure it is lyrics from a rap song. I commented with a silly comment, teasing him and my younger son about how they talk about the male parts so much, should i be worried. ( No, I am not against gay/lesbian, we were just joking). My middle son comments with "other son should be the one you are worried about, he had only 1 girlfriend in high school and he married her, hahaha, coverup" I said,  "you have a point there"    Youngest son writes, "hahaha, Mom called other son gay."  it was clearly a joke...everyone else could see that it was a JOKE!!  Well DIL must have been just lurking waiting for my oldest sons name to come up in any capacity, told him that we were trash talking him so mid may I finally get an email from him and this is what he wrote:

"So this is the first time I have talk to you in months and its not about anything good. Wife just stumbled upon your guys' trash talk session on brothers facebook. Do all of you really have the need to talk about me behind my back. Brother hates me for no reason just because you went crying to him like you always do to anyone just trying to get people to feel sorry for you, so i have lost all hope for you or him.  Other brother was the only decent one but he seems to actually think I'm "gay" now too. You have sucessfully earned yourself to seriously never talk to me again, and no wife isn't my "cover-up" incase you were all still wondering. Wife and I would like you to take all pictures of us and our daughter off your facebook/myspace, just dont talk about us anymore. Act like i never exsisted if thats how you want to look at it. All these years Dad never said anything about you but i can see where he is coming from all of you guys are emotionally unstable and it seems like im the only sane one. Anyways good luck!"

I was devastated and if that wasnt bad enough DIL also wrote ( I took out the foul language):

"i can't even believe you. how could you trash talk one of your children, & think it's totally ok? honestly, how can you even call yourself a mother?
i TRIED to like you. i put all my power into it... & what i read about husband's "cover up" completely disgusted me & put the cherry on top of an already ruined relationship.
Husband has not said ONE THING about you people EVER.... yet you all still continue to (explicit) talk about him. are you people that (explicit) bored with your own lame-ass lives? i honestly think you need help, which is ironic because of all you've done to pursue your "dream job".
seeing what kind of person you really are, i realized that you people are not the type of people i ever want my children around. i'd rather have them grow up not having to deal with all your (explicit). remove every detail, picture, whatever of us from everything. i do not want any connection between you & my family. i give you permission to tell all your friends or whoever that will listen to you about what i'm saying now, since i know that's what already going to happen anyways.... i know how important it is for you to get people to feel sorry for you. "

My granddaughters bday was beginning of june, I went ahead and sent her a package. This is what my son wrote in response to receiving the package:
"when i told you to never talk to me again i meant it.  that includes sending any mail.  we got your package and they didn't let us send it back so we are gonna send it back in a different box.  we made it very clear that we didn't want any association with you and that includes our kids.  you lost the right to call yourself a grandma to our daughter so stop."

I received the package one week later. The card was the only thing missing. So it makes me wonder if they opened it to see what I wrote and then ripped it up.  The sad thing, DIL is pregnant again and due in September. I heard from friends who are still on their facebooks that its another girl.     cannot believe this is happening to me. It sometimes feels like a dream. I have always been there for my son and for him to defend his Dad like he does now is a big kick in the gut to me. I know that DIL is talking to the stepmom and that she loves the fact that my son and DIL have turned on me. So I am sure she is fueling a lot of this along with the DIL.  I helped the DIL a lot when they were first married. Her parents didnt agree with the marriage, she stayed at my house for 3 months before she got approved to join my son overseas.  I loaned them money to get her overseas dental. I sent them Christmas gifts, baby gifts, visited them over there and spent so much money during my trip so we could have the best time ever. My exhusband lied about why he couldnt go over there to see him and turned around and took a trip to a tropical island instead.  Its just all very hurtful. I cant believe my son has totally cut me out of his life and that he now is in this wonderful relationship with my exhusband and his wife.   This is a start to my story. Sorry for the length but I wanted to tell you as much as possible and hope that I can find support here.

Sandy

You sound such a loving and wonderful person.  Please know I am thinking of you and was very sad to hear how hurt you are.  You will get so much support here from girls who can relate to your story.
Love and thoughts
Julia

Wishing you well. There are better days ahead. I think it would be wise to modify your post and remove peoples names. It works well to be anonymous here. Sending love...

Bless your heart, allcriedout.  Yes, it does sound familiar.  But you know what, I am proof that there is always light at the end of the tunnel.  It may be a totally different light, but it is light.  Be good to yourself and take care of you now.  I was so used to being a Mother and doing everything, I had no idea how to do things for myself.  It's a learning process and you have to take it in stages as you will learn here.

Stage 1 - Do something for yourself

I thought about removing their names in their emails before I posted it. Thanks for the advice, I modified it.

Good for you. I'm the only who uses names. It's my website and so I use my name and my son's. He's our webmaster, Kirk VandenBerghe...but I think it's safer for others to cover their tracks.  8)

There was one thing in your post that really stood out to me.  When your son said, "Wife STUMBLED upon the facebook trash talk."  Ok, that's bull.  She didn't stumble, she went looking.  If you are blocked, you don't see their status messages unless you go to their page (given your's is not set to private) and look! 

That in itself says to me she was looking for things to use against you.  And my Grandma always said if you want to go looking for trouble, you will find it.  It wouldn't have matter what you were writing, joking or not, she was looking for trouble.

Thats right she didnt "stumble upon" it. She was waiting for the instant when her husbands name was mentioned in any slight capacity. As you notice, the thread started with me joking about my other two sons. My son#2 brought up Son#1's name and all I said "You have a point" It was CLEARLY A JOKE!! Son #2 doesnt make his wall private because he is a very outspoken who cares what you think type kid.  A few months ago, their stepmom did the same thing. Looked at son#2's wall and saw a comment that son#3 made about her. She told my exhusband who then called up my youngest son and told him that he needed to respect his stepmom.  So the DIL and stepmom are two peas in a pod!    It makes me wonder what would have happened had I not written "you have a point" and at that point it was only son#2 who brought up his brothers name. I dont know but clearly she is the one who has too much time on her hands. I know it has a lot to do with her insecurities and I also know for sure that my sons stepmom is getting involved. A friend of mine wrote to my son and DIL trying to be the peacemaker without my knowledge until DIL wrote me a nasty email telling me to stop talking about them to everyone. In DIL's email to my friend, she clearly states that she is getting their Dad's side of the story and that they are positive that they made the right decision in cutting me and my other two boys out of their lives. I know her information is coming from the stepmom. My exhusband is not much into computers, email, social network sites, etc...  It was devastating for me to read the correspondance between DIL and my friend- more lies!! I decided at that point, I cant handle it. Asked friends NOT to tell me anything anymore and I have blocked DIL on facebook.

 
The more people I meet the more I like my dog.

I was looking for support and googled "lying daughterinlaw" and that is how I found your forum.  

Your story is very sad and hurtful, but I don't see where she lied.  What you don't want to do right now is escalate. Don't turn misunderstandings and hurt feelings into lying.  Not even in your private mind.  It seeps out and right now you need to look at things with brutal realism.  It doesn't sound like she lied.  Other things are going on, but not lying.

At first, I thought my DIL was the best thing ever, I have 3 sons so she was like the daughter I never had.  She has now turned into my worst nightmare!

Common mistake.  She's not the daughter you never had.  She is her mother's daughter.  A mother-daughter relationship with a 20-year old woman took 20 years to develope.  It was never possible for her to be like your daughter.  You may not realize it, but you of course have, unconscious expectations of a what a daughter would be like.  The chances of your expectations matching her expectations of a MIL was almost nothing.  While it's possible over time that a MIL/DIL relationship can feel like a mother-daughter relationship, it doesn't happen in 2 years long distance.  It will be helpful to you to acknowledge that you might have had unrealistic expectations of her that interfered with your ability to get to know the real her.

Also it is hyperbole to say she is your worst nightmare.  There are worst things.  Brain  cancer comes to mind.  The death of one of your children. Nuclear bombs.  Kidnapping, torture, and public beheading.  If you allow hyberbole to rule your feelings, you will find yourself over reacting.  That won't help you now.

My son facebook chatted with me that DIL got mad at him and said she was going to leave him and wanted a divorce. He told me that she does that quite often, gets mad and then threatens him that she will leave. I was very careful with what I said to him because I never ever wanted to get involved with their relationship- I just wanted to be supportive to my son....

Okay, I don't think you did anything purposefully wrong. You certainly weren't mean or malicious or meddling.  However, the position your son put you in was a no win one.  I can see you answered carefully, however, as you now know, not carefully enough.  One must NEVER in any way criticize one spouse to another.  Did you criticize?  I don't think so, but I can see how she thought so: he complained about a problem (which he NEVER should have done to you), and you immediately jumped to the worst case scenario: that she's high maintenance.  From her 20-year old point of view, she suspected you've thought all along she was high maintenance and was jumping on the first piece of evidence.  She never absorbed the part where you said, "I never pictured her as...".  Her eyes jumped to 'she is high maintenance'. 

The only thing anyone should ever say to one spouse about another when they confide in their problems is, "I'm sure you will work it out."  It can even be tricky to stick up for her, because if you don't stick up for her the way she'd stick up for herself, she can be offended.  You can only say vague things like, "I'm sure you'll work it out.  She's a lovely person." 

I'm sorry you fell into that trap.  Your son put you in a no win situation when he whined to you about her.  He was the one who was really at fault.  He violated the trust in the marriage.  Likely she senses his betrayal, and is projecting her anger (which is justified) at him onto you.  It's easier that way.  Just as you are projecting your anger at your son (who was the one who was wrong here, not you, not her) onto her.  It's easier to be mad at the 'other woman' than at the man in the middle who betrayed both his wife and mother and set up a bad situation.

She went on his computer later and read our chat and took things I said the wrong way and she totally made me out to be this horrible person.

She took it the way she took it; she's not wrong here.  People are entitled to their feelings and thoughts, even if you don't agree with them.  She's not a mind reader and can't know how you meant something.  It would be nice if she gave you the benefit of doubt, but for her own reasons she didn't.

She said I called her high maintenance, that I was basically calling her crazy because I recommended that they go to counseling and that only crazy people go to counseling...

Did you recommend counselling?  I don't see anything wrong with that, but it changes your story as you reported it above.  Apparently there was more to the conversation than you are admitting to here.  You made it sound like you said two things: the sentence about how you never saw her as high maintenance, and 'okay'.   There's more to this story, though, isn't there?

 So my son stood up for her and said that she didnt twist around what I wrote, that what i said was pretty straight forward.

Sounds like your son also twisted your words around, or else your words were not as straightforward as you think.  Again, the bigger problem is your son...and I don't know if this is true or not, but it might also be a tendency on your part to minimize your part in the problem.  It's a natural response, but it will not help you here in fixing the problem. 

So I write DIL back, I  thought it was a fantastic heartfelt supportive email, trying to tell her how i can relate to some of her feelings- I have been the young, military wife before who hated where we were stationed.... He writes back and tells me that I have always played the victim, that I tried to get DIL to feel sorry for me with my email. He said that I have always done this and the only thing I couldnt do was make him hate his Dad but I brainwashed my other 2 sons to hate their dad. ( their dad left me in 2002 for a younger model - sound familiar Pooh?)...

I can see how easily you can make a misstep here.  You are trying to empathize and show solidarity and understanding.  Bless your heart for that.  It's a kind thing to do.  But again, it can be clumsy.  The problem is, you don't really know what their problems are and what's causing them.  If you think it's because they hate where they are living, but the truth is they are mismanaging money (just pulling something out of thin air), then your sympathy makes no sense and they wonder wth you are thinking.  It puts them on the defensive.

The response your son gives is very interesting.  He accuses you of always playing the victim, trying to rope other people into feeling sorry for you, trying to brainwash (or more likely recruit) your sons, and implies that you haven't gotten over the divorce.

None of these accusations are about or from your DIL.  They refer to things that happened before he married her or maybe even knew her, to things that occurred when he was 12 or 13 and onward.  This is the root of your problem with your son: it's not your daughter in law, it's that you and he have unresolved issues from when you and his father divorced.

Also, their relationship with his father and stepmother has nothing to do with you.  Let it go.  It's not a competition, it doesn't matter if your X and his new wife don't like you.  Don't go there, you have nothing to win. 

I found out from my youngest that she came to town while my son was deployed. She ignored my emails so I showed up on her parents doorstep.  

That was rude, just to show up uninvited.  You were pushy and don't be surprised if you hear about it in the future. 

  I tried to go by her place on valentines day to give her candy and my grandbaby stuffed toy and it felt very awkward. 

 Although she apologized for what happened, something still didnt seem right and I still wasnt hearing from my son.

As you can see from this, your DIL is trying to get along; the problem is your son.  You had a more troubled relationship with him than you realized and it's being played out over this drama.  You cannot fix things until you and your son resolve the divorce issues and your behavior during and after the divorce, and his complaint about your habit (as he sees it) of playing victim. 

It's easy to say, "Oh no, I don't play victim." But he thinks you do.  And he has reasons for thinking that (which have nothing to do with DIL or stepmother or his father).  You are going to have to stretch yourself to understand his point of view.  And I submit for your consideration, that maybe you do.  It would not be something easy to recognize in oneself.  Whiny people almost never realize they are whiny.  Needy clingy people almost never characterize themselves that way.  And people who play victim usually don't recognize they are doing it either.  I'm not saying you are (or that you are whiny or needy), only that you need to honestly consider that you may give that impression to your son.

...He wrote a post about the male part of the body ... I said,  "you have a point there"    Youngest son writes, "hahaha, Mom called other son gay."  it was clearly a joke...everyone else could see that it was a JOKE!! 

That it was a joke does not make it right or kind.  'Joking' is one of the favorite methods used by passive aggressive people to strike back.  It's a way to be hostile and aggressive without taking responsibility for it.  And you had a reason to strike back.  Your son cut you off before your DIL did, he skipped your birthday and Mother's day, and went a couple months ignoring you.  You must have been so hurt--and angry.  You are not wrong to be angry.  You feel what you feel.  But... it was tactless and unkind to joke about your son's masculinity with his brothers in a public forum--or even in private. 

Well DIL must have been just lurking waiting for my oldest sons name to come up in any capacity, told him that we were trash talking him

You are walking down the wrong path here, allowing yourself to be diverted by your DIL's involvement.  It was public, she saw it, and she didn't have to tell him you were trash talking him: he no doubt read EXACTLY what you wrote and he clearly thought you were trash talking him too.

"So this is the first time I have talk to you in months and its not about anything good... Do all of you really have the need to talk about me behind my back.

He has a good point here.

Brother hates me for no reason just because you went crying to him like you always do to anyone just trying to get people to feel sorry for you, so i have lost all hope for you or him.  Other brother was the only decent one but he seems to actually think I'm "gay" now too. You have sucessfully earned yourself to seriously never talk to me again..."

There is apparently history between him and his brothers.  And again your son is accusing you of crying victim and recruiting allies.  This issue is not going to go away until you address it.  And the best way to address it is to take yourself to counselling and review your behavior regarding this charge.  And get expert help on how to handle it. It's beyond the ability of a forum to advise.  However, be aware, that this will never just go away by itself.  You will have to address it with him, and you will have to address it carefully, because it will be very easy to make it worse.  Get professional help with this.

....and no wife isn't my "cover-up" incase you were all still wondering.

Okay, apparently he is quoting you to yourself.  When on earth did you ever accuse his wife of being his cover-up?  That's insulting and out of line on your part.  And it's part of his anger with you.  It sounds like you owe him an apology.  Again, discuss this candidly with a therapist, and follow the therapist's advice on how to proceed with fixing it.

  All these years Dad never said anything about you but i can see where he is coming from all of you guys are emotionally unstable ...

Again, you have pre-DIL unresolved divorce issues.  They will not go away by themselves.  You need to address them.  You cannot blame them on dad or DIL or stepmother.  This is between you and your son.  He believes what he's saying and probably a whole lot more, and frankly, you do sound bitter about the divorce, dad and stepmom.  It's very hard to heal from infidelity and betrayal.  It's possible that you have some post traumatic stress or depression about it and are acting out in ways that aren't best for you.  I'm not saying that's true, but it would be a reason for your son's opinion and perhaps for a feeling of being victimized (sounds like you were, but not by your son or your DIL, but by your X).  It may be a reason, but it's not an excuse.  Go talk to someone.  You deserve to be happier.  You deserve to heal.  You deserve an ally that really can help.

Your DIL wrote what she wrote because you hurt her husband, and because she's personally seen some things that she didn't like.  She's frustrated and angry.  Frankly, she's not the issue and I'd just ignore her letter.  It doesn't mean anything except that she's frustrated with the relationship with you and she's hurting on behalf of her husband.

My granddaughters bday was beginning of june, I went ahead and sent her a package.

Why would you do this?  I'm on your side and I think you were stirring the pot.  Come on now, they made it clear they didn't want contact with you at this time.  Why blatantly disrespect their wishes?  How could it have ever possibly have made things better.  Your granddaughter is too young to know if you remembered her birthday or not, so you didn't do it for her.  Why did you do it?  I'm at a loss.  Is negative attention better than no attention?  Did you hope they'd pretend nothing happened and just carry on like there wasn't a problem?  Did you think they'd be 'bought' by a gift and obligated to be nice to you (were you trying a gift-with-strings strategy)?  Were you purposely poking the sleeping bear?  If you want to fix things with your son, you are going to have to answer this question honestly. 

The sad thing, DIL is pregnant again and due in September. I heard from friends who are still on their facebooks that its another girl.  I  cannot believe this is happening to me.

I am sorry. It is sad.  I feel bad for you. 

]I have always been there for my son and for him to defend his Dad like he does now is a big kick in the gut to me. I know that DIL is talking to the stepmom and that she loves the fact that my son and DIL have turned on me. So I am sure she is fueling a lot of this along with the DIL.

Why is the subject of dad coming up?  You were divorced 8 years ago.  Dad has nothing to do with you or your son.  If the subject of dad comes up, your son SHOULD defend him.  That's his father.  Don't bring up the subject of dad.  If he is bringing it up out of nowhere (hard to believe, children of divorce desperately avoid talking about one parent to the other), but if he is, it's only more evidence that there are unresolved issues between your son and you regarding the divorce.

Give up the competition between you and the stepmom.  Why torture yourself imagining anything about her.  She has nothing to do with your relationship with your son.  You might want to think that she's turning your son against you.  But if you had a strong, healthy relationship with your son, she would not be able to do so--just as you have not been able to turn your son against his dad.  Do I think they discussed the package you sent after being told not to for your granddaughter's birthday?  Maybe, but it signifies nothing--except that you made a choice that gave them something to talk about. 

  I helped the DIL a lot when they were first married.

Is this more gifts-with-strings attached?  I assume you gave freely and only what you wanted and could afford to give?  If you helped your DIL, then you also helped your son.   You appear to have expectations of something because you did this that was not understood by your son and his wife.  Was it undying loyalty to you against your ex?  When people realize that there is hidden expectations behind a gift, they feel betrayed.  Gifts can sometimes feel like Trojan horses. 

My exhusband lied about why he couldnt go over there to see him and turned around and took a trip to a tropical island instead....I cant believe my son has totally cut me out of his life and that he now is in this wonderful relationship with my exhusband and his wife.

What on earth does this have to do with anything between you and your son and your DIL and you being cut off?  Are you trying to say, "I'm the good parent, he's the bad parent. You should love me more."?  The story you are presenting is: I made a couple innocent mistakes, and did a couple mean things, I got cut off, I don't feel I deserve such a heavy penalty because some of it is due to misunderstanding and out of my own hurt; how come I'm cut off when my X is not, I did more for them; X didn't just betray me, he's betraying my son, and my son isn't reacting the way I think he should.

If that's how you really feel, there's no shame in that.  Feelings are feelings, thoughts come into our head without invitation.  However...it is up to you to manage your thoughts and feelings and actions and words responsibly.  Therapy would be helpful, you need to unburden your heart and professional guidance on how to repair this delicate relationship. 

I wish you great luck, and you are in my prayers.

Quote from: allcriedout on June 23, 2010, 11:08:04 AMThats right she didnt "stumble upon" it. ... clearly she is the one who has too much time on her hands. I know it has a lot to do with her insecurities ...

It doesn't matter if she stumbled on it or is monitoring the page.  This is not the problem or issue.  And if she's pregnant, keeping house, and has a year old baby, she does NOT have too much time on her hands, probably not as much as you have on yours.  Beig negative and snarky about your DIL is going to hurt you.  It's time to give it up.

And do you not have any insecurities?  You have exhibited a couple in your post.  Most people have insecurities.  All you can do is work on your own.  What have you done to fix your own faults?

Quote from: allcriedout on June 23, 2010, 11:08:04 AMA friend of mine wrote to my son and DIL trying to be the peacemaker without my knowledge ...

I'm sorry your friend did that.  She made everything worse and owes you and DIL an apology.   It's wise tof you to say you don't want to know what's going on with your son/DIL and your X and his wife.  Because that's not where the problem is.  The problem is personal and private between you and your son, and if that relationship was right, nobody else could interfere..  Get the relationship with your son strong and healthy, and watch all the other problems melt away without much more efort on your part.

Allcriedout,
I can feel the pain in your post.  You obviously have been through a great deal of hardship and need support and understanding at this point.  You were betrayed by your husband after building a family together and unfortunately you cannot avoid the fact that you will still have to interact with him through events with your children.  Your ds/dil were very young at the time they married and obviously have a lot of maturing to do.  Young adults often misunderstand situations such as yours and make the mistake of thinking that you are looking for sympathy, when in truth you are being human.  What you have endured is heartbreaking and it sounds as though you have done all you can in your power to support your os/dil.  I think it would be wise to withhold any talk, teasing or otherwise, about your dil and ds as it is clear that they are very sensitive.  While reading your post, my thoughts were to take a huge step back and allow them to come to you after things settle down.  It may take a very long time, but eventually they are going to find fault in most everyone else they are dealing with and you are going to look a lot better to them.  In the meantime, counseling would help you to deal with your hurt and the steps needed to reconcile with your ds/dil. 
Hugs, Hope   

Hope, it's good to see your smiling face once again! I like your post.

ACO, I'm sorry you're going through this.

This site has helped me immeasurably, but I still don't understand how adult children, DILs, and other people can think that it should be easy for mothers to walk away from their years of nurturing. Even if we're accomplished career women with rich, full lives, the time we put into raising our children is important. Sometimes it seems as if we're expected to just walk away with our memories as if those years never existed for us. A big chunk of our lives is wiped away. We don't even get a gold watch! We don't dare express our feelings for being seen as overly emotional, clingy, or needy.

I first experienced this when my dad married a woman who did not accept me or my sibling. We didn't exist for her to the point of being excluded in what they said were "family celebrations." When we did see them we couldn't talk about anything that happened before Stepmother entered the picture, thus wiping away our childhoods (mom had passed on soon after the divorce.) When DS married a "cut from the herd" DIL, all those feelings of rejection, abandonment, loss of a loved one and the erasure of my past came flooding back. I was determined to fight for my right to exist! But the more I fought, the more emotion I displayed & the further DS & DIL moved away.

We can't change them. We can only change our reactions to them and work on healing ourselves. It seems like defeat at first, which is hard for a devoted mother to succumb to since we're hardwired to fight fight fight for our kids, but it really is about loving ourselves, accepting what we cannot change, and moving on. Sometimes doing those things for ourselves gives the other parties enough breathing room to also heal, mature, and reconnect with us. If not, we're healthier and better able to enjoy a fulfilling life anyway.

Best wishes to you as you continue this journey. We're here for you, and we're learning right along with you!

My guess is that people don't "think it's easy for us to walk away"...they just don't think at all. We're not on their radar screens as living, breathing entities. Just my take of course...but being insular and self-absorbed often looks like the"norm" in these situations to me. Sending love...

I agree Luise, I think the only "thinking" some of them do are thinking of themselves.  I think we were raised in generations where we were taught to think charitably.  We were supposed to think of others first, whether that be friends, family or complete strangers.  So we struggle with DILS/MILS that only think of themselves and seem to never consider others.

The back-lash of that is we were not raised to do things for ourselves.  It was always others first so it is sometimes hard to fathom that we should be selfish and do things for ourselves. 

Magicgran has being giving some good advise here. I am almost sure she is a Phygologist.

There is one thing I am absolutely sure of and that is we must see our children as a bird in the hand.
We either allow them to fly away or we hold on to them. It is difficult. We are the mothers who have spent the best part of our lives bringing them up.
Never mind giving them life ( Losing our figures--not important) Calling the shots. Do this dont do that. Now we have this slim attractive women taking over with a lot less experiance than we have.
We have made mistakes so tend to want to stop them from doing things we think may not be quite right.
Children are only loaned to us. My son is here for the world cup and he gets flu and for his own good I think he should stay in bed but girlfriend is not prepared to give up evening with friends so I moan and groan at him and he goes anyway. I could have been doing better things with my time
I must let him make up his own mind.
He is 28. I am an old foggie and must shut up.

To put it very very simply. When we were kids and wanted to go out and play but mother said "no, not until you have done your homework"

Actually with homework off the mind we played more freely because we did not have to constantly think that we still had homework to do.

As mothers our homework is done so why is it that we cant use this free time enjoying all the things in life that passed us by while we were bringing up children.

Why is our focus still on our children? Setting ourselves free sets them free.

I seriously don't know what I would do if I did not have my own interests.
This is something every mother should develope while she is bringing up children otherwise when our job is done we have nothing left but to seek the attention of the very things that we should be setting free.

If we hold a bird in a closed hand it will struggle to free itself and will never want to fly back onto your hand.

Even if we don't have interests of our own we should try and take the focus off ourselves.
Invite a lonely person to tea.Take a long walk.Give a helping hand to charity.

The more we are self assured the less we need the attention of others.
Give love and it will come back to you.

As the commandment goes"Love thy neighbour as thyself "or how can you love someone else if you dont love yourself.
This is the time for us to nurture ourselves.

Great post catchingup.  And you are so right on all of it.  I think the only thing I was thinking different while reading it was, although I am positive there are tons of Mothers that are desperately trying to hold on to their children, I think there are also many of us that don't have our total focus on it.

I personally have a very fulfilling life, a wonderful DH whom I love spending time with and many outside friends and interests.  But, I still want a relationship with my children and grandchildren.  I still want them to be part of my life, and I want to part of theirs.  Not much, just the occasional visit, call or Holiday.

I don't think letting go is a problem, non-existance is.

Lots to think about here. I feel that self love is the original building block. If you look outside of yourself for it, it's an endless search. If you find it... then you can share it.

Magic Gram,

I appreciate all of your input. I couldnt possibly put everything in my original post, there is of course so much more to my situation and also I didnt even begin to touch on my own background.  You dont see where she lied in what I told you but I have found out that she has lied about things she told my son about herself and she also exaggerates the truth a lot. That is why I typed in "lying daughterinlaw" to find some kind of forum such as this.  I read some of the others posts in the archives and my DIL fits the description of some of the other's DILs- a loving golden retriever at first who later turns into a pit bull.

I realize she is her mother's daughter but I was treating her as if she as one of my own.  That is what I meant by the daughter I never had.  I didnt treat her like a stranger, I welcomed her with open arms into my family and into my heart. I am not a difficult person to get along with.  Her relationship with her own mother is not exactly great although I am sure she is at least still talking to her own mother. She is more of a daddy's litte girl. Yes, I did have expectations of what our MIL-DIL relationship would be like and it seemed to be that way at first. I was wanting to have the type of relationship with my DIL that I had with my ex-MIL.  I dont think my expectations were unrealistic or that they interfered with my ability to get to know the real her. Understand that this is how I am thinking versus how you are thinking and of course versus how she is thinking.

Yes it is a hyperbole to say she is my worst nightmare, realistically of course there are worst things that could happen to people. Yes brain cancer, lost a dear friend a little over a year to it. Death of a child, yes my landlord's 14 year son fell from a cliffside into water, his body never to be recovered.  Count my blessings I am not going through those terrible tragedies. There is ALWAYS someone out there going through something much worst than you are, things could be worst, but when you are the one in it whatever "it" may possibly be- it feels like its your worst nightmare.

Yep, you are right the only words that stood out to her in the chat were the words that hurt her the most "high maintenance".  When I wrote the email to her I told her what she didnt read was other times when I told my son he better not be hanging out with the guys all the time or playing video games all of the time and not being there for her. Also the times when I told him that its not easy for her being there not having friends and the importance that he take her out to do things, even if its a drive somewhere. I bought them a GPS so they could get out an explore more.  The times when I told him that compromise and communication are very important in a marriage-- that you should not lose yourself when you get married but you must compromise and take into account the other person's feelings. 

Yes, I totally understand people are entitled to their feelings. Your feelings are your feelings, it doesnt matter if they are good or bad, they are your feelings.  Most of the time when someone is reacting a certain way to something we say or do, the question is what is it inside of them that is causing them to react to it the way that they do. I stop and ask myself often, why am I reacting a certain way to a particular situation?

There wasnt more to the story of the chat than I am admitting to, I was trying to condense my original post so that it wasnt a novel. I did recommend counseling on the chat with my son. They are newlyweds, in a foreign country, with money and relationship issues and counseling services are provided for free by the military.  I did recommend it because I am a strong advocate of it. I was finishing up a Masters in Marriage and Family Therapy when all of this started last fall. I have completed all of the coursework, I only needed to complete an internship to graduate. That is why when she wrote to me she mentioned something about my "dream job".  I dropped my internship in December because I was pretty much an emotional mess. I felt pretty hypocritical counseling others who were suffering with depression. The number of people seeking therapy for depression increases during the holidays. I was in therapy because a part of the Masters program is to go through at least 20 hours of therapy sessions.

I am not minimizing my part at all. Logically I know what is going on here, he is trying to keep the peace with her because he lives with her and now she can hold his two daughters over his head. She is very manipulative. She referred to me as manipulative, when in turn that is a description of her behavior.

I didnt know all of their problems and of course there is always two sides to the story but I did try time empathize with her to the best of my ability and it just didnt get interpreted that way. The interpretation was that I was playing the victim trying to get them to feel sorry for me. Yes, I was upset to read my son's words that I play the victim. I printed that particular email off and took in to my therapy session so that my therapist could help me process it.  She brought up a good point- my 21 yr old son's definition of the word "victim" is entirely different from my definition of that word.  When I hear victim, I think of someone who just rolls over and plays dead and doesnt even try to bounce back from adversity.  That is NOT me.

I am very much over the divorce but you are right, there is a lot of stuff that I have still been trying to work through that happened during the 15 year marriage. My Masters degree program I was in was really like one big 2 year long therapy session- I learned a lot about myself during that time and I continue to learn.  I am bitter at the fact that I have been there and done all these things for my son (and DIL in a short amount of time) and ex and his wife havent done a thing and now stepmom has Grandmother rights and I dont. Its a hard pill to swallow but I admit anger and hurtful feelings but remember, they are MY feelings and I have a right to them.

In your opinion, it was rude that I showed up uninvited on her parents doorstep but in reality in was out of pure desperation. My mother's 80th birthday party was the following week and I wanted more than anything for my mother to meet her great granddaughter on her birthday. My DIL went because her parents told her it was the right thing to do. I am thankful she went. I have a picture of my mother holding my granddaughter and who knows, it may be the only picture that I ever get of the two of them together because my mother's health is declining.

If there was a troubled relationship with my son, I didnt see it. On my 40th birthday he bought me a mothers medal of honor necklace. He wrote me from military bootcamp to thank me for everything that I ever did for him while growing up.  I was at his bootcamp graduation, not his father.  I know... not a competition right but I was there. 

The latest thing, the joke on my other son's FB.  It was a joke and we have always been a very joking family- my three boys and I joke a lot. Any other time, my son would have seen that (he used to draw the penises on my car also) but she turned it into something it was not.  I didnt ever say anything about her being his cover-up, my other son joked and said that.  All I said was "you have a point"  and it was in response to my other son saying that my oldest only had one girlfriend in high school which is true.  The whole post started off with me joking with my other two boys. They didnt take offense to it.  The oldest wouldnt have either if things werent the way they currently are.  Yes the conversation was public to the point that my son doesnt mark his wall private, but she had to purposely click on his profile to see it- she didnt just "stumble upon it".  DIL didnt write what she wrote because I hurt her husband, her husband wouldnt have known anything about it if she wouldnt have clicked on the profile and read it. I respect your comments Magic, but she created more than was there with the FB post.

Yes he stopped talking to me months ago. She didnt really talk to me much either and thats why I sensed something was still very wrong even though she apoligized that night I showed up on her doorstep.

The history between him and his brothers is that they used to be very close.

I already bought my granddaughters gifts before the FB blowup- so I sent it. I had it in my posession, I mailed it anyways. He said to act like he didnt exist, but I didnt translate that to act like my granddaughter didnt exist. I was not purposely poking a sleeping bear.  I had no hidden expectations behind my gifts and help. I have always and will always be more of a giver than a taker. I truly do appreciate your lengthy response but as the days go by you will learn a little bit more about me and in turn I hope to learn a little bit more about you.

When my FDIL and family upset me I deleted her and an uncle from facebook. Then I put a picture up of myself with my back turned and wrote on facebook
"Sometimes you just have to turn your back on some people"

A few weeks later I added"What is the point of spending time with people who dont like us"
I do not need the approval of others. I will do what I enjoy without seeking the approval of others,I am a free spirit"

" The faults people find with me are what I call hangups" They are like Barbie doll clothes hanging on a washing line, even the pegs seem oversized"

What a butch I can be when I am angry.

I would not bother with facebook but I have 3 sons living in the U.K. --I live in South Africa--and my youngest suggested I go on facebook so that I could keep up with their activities and photo's

Problem with DIL's is that we sometimes are expected to be the MIL they want.
Well I shall be myself and if she does not like me too bad.
I have always got on well with my other sons girlfriends and never had a problem with any of them.

Life is like that. Sometimes we meet someone and "Click" and the person remains a close friend.

Let us ask ourselves "How often does this happen in a lifetime" Not that often. Most people we refer to as friends are good acquaintances.

Even if we dont particularly like someone we treat people with respect.

In all the time that my MIL virtually emotionally abused me I was never rude to her nor did I ever
try and keep her son away from her.
I eventually after many years let her know where she stood with me but did not abandon her totally.
She accused me of keeping the grandchildren away from her.
This was not entirely true. The truth was I  would not allow her to be alone with the grandchildren because I did not like the critisism she handed out to them and told her so.

So for a DIL or son to totally abandon family really does not make sense to me.

Hi allcriedout,

A lot of us have said here that letters (emails) are never a good idea. If you are upset usually the worst is said and you will regret it later. I feel the same way about facebook. Even if nobody meant to hurt .. words can be twisted to mean the the opposite of what you really mean...

I do understand what you are going through and it is heartbreaking.  I can relate to what you have said...when you said...
"I am not minimizing my part at all. Logically I know what is going on here, he is trying to keep the peace with her because he lives with her and now she can hold his two daughters over his head. She is very manipulative. She referred to me as manipulative, when in turn that is a description of her behavior."
You may need to step back and let things go for a while.
Sometime time heals.

I found MagicGram's post to be very offensive...she picked apart your whole post. I saw nothing that she said as good advice at all...only putting you down. I thought....sheesh....she saw nothing wrong in how your dil is acting at all?

But...you handled it well.        (((hugs)))

Redrose, How long has your son  been married?

I work for a company with a majority of men between the ages of 40 - 60.  Over the months, some of them have walked into my office when I was having a down day and it was obvious something was tearing me up inside. I have talked to a few of them about it and they said that they were once married to someone just like my DIL when they were very young but that marriage didnt last.  They are also the ones who told me that they would do anything to keep the peace in the household.  My son told me about a couple of their fights last year before the cut off.  One time he had worked  a 12 hour day and he was tired. She seemed so sweet telling him to go ahead and go to bed. About two hours later, she woke him up from a dead sleep and started yelling at him about how worthless he was and how she wanted a divorce. She threw his work cell phone and broke it and she also took off her wedding rings and threw them across the room.  Now there is a possibility that this was postpartum craziness as their daughter was just 1 month old but its over the top! When I was there on my last day of sightseeing last year, my son put on a tshirt that was too tight. DIL told him that he looked gay and he got upset about it and then she got upset that he was upset. So the entire train ride into the city she is giving him the cold shoulder. He is trying hard to suck up to her, touch her knee, get her to smile and nothing. She wouldnt talk to any of us. So we get to the city and I tell them both that it was my last day there and to please let it go. Well, she still continued on for a few hours with with the silent treatment and then finally she was holding his hand.  Before that point, when I was next to my son by himself on the escalator is when he told me what happened that morning. His exact words after telling me was "this happens all of the time." 

So, that is why I say that I understand he is trying to keep his family together now that he has a daughter and another daughter on the way. I just wonder how long I will be cut out of his life. I hope that is not for a lifetime. I would hate to see them go through a divorce because she seems like the type to be very nasty about him being able to see the children plus he is in the military. 

This is so hard but I appreciate the input and support I have received so far here in this forum. I knew there had to be more people in a similar situation, I just didnt realize how many there would be.  As my friend told me recently, I am too blessed to be stressed. Better days head I am sure.

My son would have been married 3 years in August. They separated last year for about 3 months...got back together for about 8 months....but it wasn't meant to be...they are divorcing.

She is not only a very controlling young lady she was also cheating on him.

He lost all trust in her.

She has 2 sons, 1 is my grandson. I love him dearly so I will keep whatever realtionship I have with her and it can be her way...I don't care...just as long as I see my grandson

Also on the whole facebook/email thing, yes I totally understand how things can be misunderstand. In writing, there isnt always the emotions of the writer coming through the same way to the reader. Facebook could be a good thing. It has allowed me a chance to keep in touch with my family who lives in a different state than me. I have reconnected with so many friends. It also can be a bad thing and destroy relationships. The internet has been my only connection with my son while he is overseas. He would contact me via skype. Where he lives, calling their home phone would cost them money as well, so I never called their home phone, I didnt even ever know their phone number. That last time I heard my son's voice was last September when I was there. The few moments I have heard from  him since have been via an email messages. When he first go there, I would hear from him once a week and slowly that all changed. The main one I was keeping in touch with was her. She is the one on the social networks sites the most. He plays the online war games.

Facebook, email...all can be good things too.

It's when it's used for devious purposes...you just have to be careful.

Facebook is how my son found out a lot of things about his x-wife(soon).

Luise, thank you thank you thank you for creating this forum and thanks to your son for maintaining it!     In 2000, I turned to the ivillage message boards when I found out that my husband of 12 years at the time fathered a child with another woman. The message board was for women who had been betrayed. The theme of husbands not only cheating but also fathering a child was common on this message board. So I formed my own private message board just for that particular situation. We helped each other so much get through that difficult time in our lives. There was no judgment if you decided to stay with your husband and be a part of the other child's life and there was no judgment if you decided you couldnt be a part of it. We were all there for each other. Almost ten years later, that particular message board isnt as active but it still exists. Facebook is now the place to be but I am in touch with a few of the ladies who have become very good friends. I actually was able to meet one of them in person when I went to my son's bootcamp graduation. We finally met after 7 years of talking online!

Julia, thank you for the comment. Not to toot my own horn, but I am a loving and wonderful person. I dont purposely set out to hurt others. I feel I am one of the least judgmental and most caring individuals you will meet in your lifetime. I know I do not deserve this and I will survive it. The support has already been so amazing here. Thank you!

Pooh, I am trying real hard to take care of myself. It is my most important relationship.  I would get upset with myself when I would let this get to me so bad that I was having a hard time functioning and not taking care of myself. Better days ahead. I am doing better than I was doing yesterday or the day before and the day before that, etc... Thank you!

Anna, thanks for your hugs and welcome! My beautician pointed out to me the fact that before DIL my son's only other important relationship with a woman was with me. An AH HA moment for sure!

Catching up, I love your sense of humor "the more people I meet the more I like my dog"   Humor is a great way to get through even the toughest moments in life. I appreciate yours!  As for Facebook, my good friend is currently going through a divorce after 28 years of marriage. She moved back to the state I live in. Her soon to be exsisterinlaw was on her facebook and everytime my friend would say something about what she was doing here, her SIL would make a hurtful comment. It was tearing my friend apart. I told her, enough is enough, delete her from your facebook and block her. Well, she finally after a couple weeks took my advice. The SIL was still trying to get through to her via her daughter's facebook account! LOL! The SIL just was loving stirring the pot but now that she is not on my friend's FB anymore, my friend is doing so much better. Sometimes you just have to get rid of the crap on your wings that is preventing you from flying.

Hope,I was betrayed by my exhusband on more than one occassion.  My exhusband, was trying so hard to be my buddy buddy a few years ago. I finally wrote him a handwritten letter, there was so much I wanted to say and I felt written was better than actually phone conversation where you think later to yourself, "oh I should have said this or I should have said that"   I told him in the letter that the boys were old enough to talk to him directly, that I would only contact him if something happened to one of them other than that there was no need for us to talk.  Well, one week later I receive a letter back, the envelope was clearly addressed by him, I know his handwriting, but his wife wrote the letter!  She was telling me to get over her husband and to stop contacting him when my letter was telling him to leave me alone! LOL- I think I mentioned early on- she is very young, closer to my older sons age than she is to my exhusbands age. Unfortunately my exhusband is always going to be there. Ugh. You are so right in saying "eventually they are going to find fault in most everyone else they are dealing with and you are going to look a lot better to them"  I can only hope.  I stopped my counseling in January. My counselor and I agreed it was a good time to transition. I dont think I need to go back to her just yet. I think I am doing pretty well talking here in this forum and I have a huge support network of friends.

Pen, thats what I dont get either- how do they think it would be so easy to just act like they never existed. There is no way I could ever do that. He was my very first baby, the one who has been in my life the longest. I still have his pictures all over my house. I will always hold him close to my heart and that was the last thing I wrote to him. You experienced similar what my children experienced when their Dad remarried. His wife was livid that his sister still talked to me. Hello, I am the mother of her nephews. I was married to her brother for 15 years. You are so right, things that are beyond our control, we cant change it, we can only change the way we think about it and react to it. Acceptance... yes slowly but surely I am getting there. It may feel like I am treading through molasses some days but slowly I am making progress.

Thanks everyone! Hugs to all the wise women on this forum!

Pooh, your quote below sums it up for me! Thank you!  I have had a wonderful man in my life for the past 5 years, I have tons of friends and outside interests... I have a life!  Cutting the umbilical cord is not the problem it is being totally cut out that is.

Quote from: Pooh on June 25, 2010, 12:06:34 PM

I personally have a very fulfilling life, a wonderful DH whom I love spending time with and many outside friends and interests.  But, I still want a relationship with my children and grandchildren.  I still want them to be part of my life, and I want to part of theirs.  Not much, just the occasional visit, call or Holiday.

I don't think letting go is a problem, non-existance is.

Magicgram took the time to write a very interesting response. 
She took a problem-solving approach, empathetic and objective at the same time. 
Lots of good ideas.  In order to help resolve a conflict, it's helpful to consider how the other person might be experiencing the same conflict.
I see how it might seem like blame, but I don't think she meant it that way.   
The reply seems to be based in what our minister tells us, we can't change others only ourselves. 

Relationships can be such trickety wickets!

Non-existence is in the eyes of the beholder. Sending love...

Like you, I found this site by accident while looking for support.  While looking at these entries, I learned that I am not alone and not experiencing some sort of aberration in family relationships.

I feel like a character is someone Else's play...given a scripted role to play. I do not recognize the character.

We are now through the first year of "without our youngest son".  The worst is behind us. We survived and the best is yet to come.

We raised our son to be a loyal, loving man.  I would expect no less of him than to be supportive of his new wife and their newly adopted children.  We think it will be many years before we learn of them again and although that is not OK...I think we will be just fine and hopefully, so will they.

allcriedout

Please understand, I am trying to help you understand, the hurt and pain your going thru is very real and merited...you are being rejected by your own son, which is the most devastating situation...maybe all of us can give you our points of view and help that way...but as already stated...we are no where near counselors...therefore, we're only asking you to consider how we're viewing it...and it does sound like you are...but in situations like this, I believe we all need reinforcement and support....so, please know, we all do support you and only offer our deepest feelings on the matter...inserting some of our own experiences which might help...but please believe, we want to help.

QuoteI realize she is her mother's daughter but I was treating her as if she as one of my own.

It was nice of you to do so, however she is not your own...and that is the mistake we MIL's make sometimes...some DIL's are willing to love...some are not, and that is they're right...it's who they are and how they were raised...

QuoteThat is what I meant by the daughter I never had.  I didn't treat her like a stranger, I welcomed her with open arms into my family and into my heart. I am not a difficult person to get along with.

Several of my friends told me, I am so easy to get along with?  I made the same mistake with my DIL...welcomed her with open arms and immediately "expected" her to be like I was raised to believe.

QuoteHer relationship with her own mother is not exactly great although I am sure she is at least still talking to her own mother.

In the beginning of your relationship with her, and I'm just guessing here...but please consider, that she may not trust woman due to her dysfunction with her own mother.  She may not realize it, however, it's how she was...and fears getting close to women, b/c she was so hurt by her own mother...perhaps that is why she gets along better with your ex's wife...b/c your ex's wife had no expectations of her and she felt that...please realize, we all send out an energy...our feelings and thoughts are felt by others...

QuoteShe is more of a daddy's little girl. Yes, I did have expectations of what our MIL-DIL relationship would be like and it seemed to be that way at first. I was wanting to have the type of relationship with my DIL that I had with my ex-MIL. 

Your fortunate to have had a great relationship with your ex MIL..however, you must understand, we all her wanted that with our DIL's, but sometimes we can't have what we want...I went thru this for 12 years...never understanding that my DIL didn't want it...I refused to believe that and took it as a rejection, when in fact, she wanted things to happen slowly...she needed time...

QuoteI don't think my expectations were unrealistic

I don't think so either, but apparently your dil does...can you understand that?  I strongly believe by looking at her point of view, and your son's...and trying to understand it...with self examination, this situation your experiencing, will improve, however, it's going to take time...and a lot of hard work on your part.  Can you view her feelings, putting your own feelings aside and trying to see they're point of view....what I'm trying to explain is, if you detach yourself...and view this problem as you would, if it were happening to a friend of yours...you would view it differently...

Quoteor that they interfered with my ability to get to know the real her. Understand that this is how I am thinking versus how you are thinking and of course versus how she is thinking.

Your right, and you can never second guess how someone else is thinking and feeling and doing...and when our feelings become hurt and we're rejected, which is the worse thing that any human being can go thru...we see things differently...we actually start to believe what we're seeing, which could totally be way off base.

My son's step mother is a very evil person and a mutual friend asked me if to consider if maybe she had a hand in this problem between my DIL and myself....and I wouldn't be surprised if she did, however, I don't know...so what good does it do me, to dwell on it or look for an excuse...no one can make another person feel the way they do, unless they allow it

QuoteYes, I totally understand people are entitled to their feelings. Your feelings are your feelings, it doesn't matter if they are good or bad, and they are your feelings.  Most of the time when someone is reacting a certain way to something we say or do, the question is what is it inside of them that is causing them to react to it the way that they do. I stop and ask myself often, why am I reacting a certain way to a particular situation?

Your are absolutely right here...

QuoteThere wasn't more to the story of the chat than I am admitting to, I was trying to condense my original post so that it wasn't novel. I did recommend counseling on the chat with my son. They are newlyweds, in a foreign country, with money and relationship issues and counseling services are provided for free by the military.  I did recommend it because I am a strong advocate of it. I was finishing up a Masters in Marriage and Family Therapy when all of this started last fall. I have completed all of the coursework, I only needed to complete an internship to graduate. That is why when she wrote to me she mentioned something about my "dream job".  I dropped my internship in December because I was pretty much an emotional mess. I felt pretty hypocritical counseling others who were suffering with depression. The number of people seeking therapy for depression increases during the holidays. I was in therapy because a part of the Masters program is to go through at least 20 hours of therapy sessions.

Then I think your on the right track...however, therapy is only good when the therapist is like Magicgram....she is trying to help point out to you, where she see's only your mistakes...b/c by self examination...well, quite frankly it's the hardest thing to do...(why do you think Asian's view it as facing our own demons?) however, it is the best way to get answers...believe me, I've been through it...so you need to make certain...your not going into therapy and spending all your time talking, but the therapist is only agreeing with you, and not helping you face what you might be doing wrong....

QuoteI am not minimizing my part at all. Logically I know what is going on here, he is trying to keep the peace with her because he lives with her and now she can hold his two daughters over his head. She is very manipulative. She referred to me as manipulative, when in turn that is a description of her behavior.

Yes, that could be part of it...but your son has said things that point problems between you and him that are apparently deeply rooted and to him, very real...and you've got to find out why he feels that way...even if he did fabricate it, basically, you've got to consider that he may have some validity to his feelings...and again, I'm not picking on you...or taking sides...I'm throwing some ideas out there for you to reconsider...maybe in some ways he's trying to reach you...I don't know you...so there is no way I can say you are what he says you are...

QuoteI didn't know all of their problems and of course there is always two sides to the story but I did try time empathize with her to the best of my ability and it just didn't get interpreted that way.

No two people are on the same plain at the same time...logically you were ready to resolve, but she may not be...her feelings have been hurt deeply, she is only 20 years old, and due to her upbringing, she is going to take things maybe much more personal then you are aware of...I'm not saying your wrong, just trying to point out what she may be feeling...and by truly understanding that, considering that, it will help you understand...she isn't ready yet...your son isn't ready yet, and when you push yourself on someone, instead of allowing them to make the first move...it angers them more and pushes them away even more....

QuoteThe interpretation was that I was playing the victim trying to get them to feel sorry for me. Yes, I was upset to read my son's words that I play the victim.

The question is, could you be doing that, and not realizing you do?  Only you know the answer to that?  I'm simply throwing that out there...apparently your son feels that way, why?  And we all do it at times...some more then others...and you have every right to feel hurt...you've been through a lot...had a lot of disappointments...but is he saying that he feels you dwell on things to much and to long?

QuoteI printed that particular email off and took in to my therapy session so that my therapist could help me process it.  She brought up a good point- my 21 yr old son's definition of the word "victim" is entirely different from my definition of that word.  When I hear victim, I think of someone who just rolls over and plays dead and doesn't even try to bounce back from adversity.  That is NOT me.

She's right and a good start...playing victim to me, is someone who dwells on things way to long for whatever reason, and talks about it all the time, b/c that is the only way they can bring attention to themselves...but there are always other definitions and ways people look and see things...the trick is, to be able to understand that...

QuoteI am very much over the divorce but you are right, there is a lot of stuff that I have still been trying to work through that happened during the 15 year marriage.

That part of our lives leaves huge scars...which are hard to overcome...leaves us with a lot of baggage...the end of any relationship is like a death and it's devastating...serves up a lot of insecurities if we don't address it with counseling...

QuoteIn your opinion, it was rude that I showed up uninvited on her parents doorstep but in reality in was out of pure desperation.

No matter what reason you had for showing up on her parent's doorstep, it was very wrong of you to do that...and in my opinion...you have a sense of entitlement...your DIL's parents need to invite you...regardless of your mother's birthday, if anything you should have called...what you did is give them more reason to question your behavior..and again, I'm not taking sides...

QuoteOn my 40th birthday he bought me a mothers medal of honor necklace.
He wrote me from military boot camp to thank me for everything that I ever did for him while growing up.  I was at his boot camp graduation, not his father.  I know... not a competition right but I was there.

We very rarely see it, and when he tells you these things he means it, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't think you made mistakes...

QuoteThe latest thing, the joke on my other son's FB.  It was a joke and we have always been a very joking family- my three boys and I joke a lot. Any other time, my son would have seen that (he used to draw the penises on my car also) but she turned it into something it was not.

But can you please see, while you may view it as a joke, it was at someone else's expense which hurt them.  People get angry b/c they are hurt...

QuoteI didnt ever say anything about her being his cover-up, my other son joked and said that.  All I said was "you have a point"

But you agreed, and it is as if you were saying, "your right and you have every reason to feel that way, I feel that way to."  And by the way, you shouldn't be writing about this stuff on face book...for all the world to see...that is embarrassing and a misuse of facebook, which gives facebook a bad name...some people go in there and use it to demean others and it's wrong...and you as they're mother should not be encouraging them to do so, even though you are hurt, he is also your son, and it must have really hurt him deeply when he read that...I know it would me...can you see that? 

QuoteI already bought my granddaughters gifts before the FB blowup- so I sent it. I had it in my posession, I mailed it anyways. He said to act like he didnt exist, but I didnt translate that to act like my granddaughter didnt exist. I was not purposely poking a sleeping bear.  I had no hidden expectations behind my gifts and help. I have always and will always be more of a giver than a taker. I truly do appreciate your lengthy response but as the days go by you will learn a little bit more about me and in turn I hope to learn a little bit more about you.

Yes, I understand your point of view...but I think what was stated is, you were not wrong in your feelings about this...that is you and how you are...and we all would feel as you do...however, they asked you not to...but you did it anyway, which validated in they're minds, that you do not plan to see they're point of view and respect they're wishes...I believe you did it out of the goodness of your heart...but we MIL's have to realize our son's are adults and we don't have entitlement over them any longer as Mothers.  They are adults...and we have to respect they're wishes...

In your words at the end, you stated,

QuoteI truly do appreciate your lengthy response but as the days go by you will learn a little bit more about me and in turn I hope to learn a little bit more about you.

what your saying is, you do appreciate her words...but...which means...you think she's wrong...or your not willing to accept that her point of view might be right...

Honestly, I think and do believe this is workable b/c you've already started to view some very good points, you seem open to support even if it doesn't agree with you and you do consider the thoughts of others...even if you don't want to, and that is very hard to do... and I do believe this situation can be resolved...but the only way it can be, is by you changing your attitude and a great deal of reconstruction on your way of thinking...it isn't easy...believe me...but the one thing we all must do, which is hard...is to consider the feelings of others...by listening to them...

I realize some people who come in here are not yet ready to go here...they only want to vent and be validated for they're feelings...it's most difficult to view our own selves and admit, that even though we only meant well, our actions were interrupted wrong...but by understanding why someone else feels the way they do, helps us to grow in life...it is very hard to face and do...but I do believe your in here to learn, to grow and to resolve...otherwise you would have taken Magicgrams post insulting and utterly offensive to the point of anger and frustration...however, you didn't...you continued to share...because deep in your heart, I think you want change...you want a working relationship with your son, and are almost ready to consider they're feelings...

please note, when we are emotinally involved, we don't see as clearly as other folks do...and to consider the opinions of others helps us to invest in the future...ours...don't take it as we're ganging up on you or as personal..we've all been there, we've all made mistakes, I surely have...otherwise, my fude with DIL wouldn't have taken 12 years for me to see this...I am deeply trying to prevent you from wasting as much time as I did...and it takes much hard work to consider and admit the fact that I could have been wrong in my perspectives of DIL...we women get off on the wrong foot, and boy oh boy, we sometimes take it to our graves..where as men, have a disagreement, have words and maybe even a fist gight, but it's all forgotten and they can move on...we women cannot...my suggestion to you, is to try very hard to work on self, and let son and DIL take the lead...stop writing on facebbook about them...or agreeing with other sons about them...it only makes things much worse..

Please hang in there with us...with me...and keep writing.  There is a reason why you came upon this forum...there are reasons for everything that happens in our lives...

I really do hope and pray that all will work out...sending much love and concern for you...Creme

I want to add something just learned, there is nothing shameful in being wrong...we've all been there...we've all been wrong, made the wrong decissions...effected the lives of others in a negative way...admiting it to self, is the test I believe...there is no possible way, kids come with a manual...we do our best we can at the time with the only tools we have, which is what our parents gave us...however...the destroyer is pride...pride which stagnates our growth, and it is important, cruical to our beings/soul and the souls of others that we progress...

Yes, that's the trick...not to get stuck...either in being wrong or being right. We are in a process. Life is a process.

I've been reading through this post for over a week now, and I was, erm... hesitant, to see other responses.

There is a wealth of love and support here.  It's hard sometimes to be supportive in the special way that person wants and needs support, and still be proactive in offering realistic advice (isn't that what we're all here for, advice, support, and coping?).  So one has to effectively balance their advice with the need to conserve the poster's feelings.  I'm going to try very hard here not to be too harsh....

I may be just that young "mutt," here but I think a good first step for you would be to realize that your DIL is not responsible for your son's actions and reactions towards you.  When someone we love doesn't treat us the way we think they should, or react to us the way we think they should....its SO EASY to say that someone else is "working their strings" (manipulating them), and to pull out of context tiny things that person says or does to "create" the horrible person we want them to be for our own egos to sleep at night.  It's clear to tell from your post that you feel your son is being manipulated by her into cutting you off, but from the other side of the fence, as a DIL, I think you could be completely off-base with that assumption.  There's still nothing in your posts that gives me any reason to believe that his reactions towards you weren't of his own accord, even though she did get involved in his defense....as most any spouse would, I think.  IMHO he had every reason to react, maybe not as strongly as he did, but the fact that he did react shows that he cares what you and his brothers think of him, or used to anyway!     

Your DIL might indeed be a real troll, but from reading your post you haven't really spent enough time with her to even know.  That's not necessarily your fault, because of the physical distance between you, but I read your post as a lot of speculation into her mindset...when you simply just don't know.  Overall, I'm gathering that the real issue is with your son, but you put a LOT of blame on her for that.  It appears that your DIL is supporting him, just as she's supposed to do as a spouse.  That being said, I'm not justifying her actions.  Quite the contrary in fact, she probably needed to just stay out of it, just as you probably shouldn't have used the term "high maintenance" to (indirectly) describe her.   

What you've said about her "nosing" around on Facebook and that she was "trying" to find some dirt, you need to let that go.  You posted on a public forum, you knew it was a public forum when his page was not private...and jokes or not, what you and your other children said about your son was hurtful.  That being a public page, she had every right to view it, and since you are family, she also had every reason to view it.  No, she didn't "stumble" upon it.  Of course she didn't!  But you and your other sons put it out there for her to find.  I won't lie...I stalk my MILs "public" facebook every single day, just to see what  or who's pot she's stirring today.  I have enough threatening information for a restraining order....just from her facebook!           

The fact that you were "joking" is totally irrelevant.  If it's a "family joke" you need to keep it in the family, not on a public forum (and a non-private facebook page IS a public forum).  Publicly questioning your own son's sexuality was wrong, and if that shoe were on my own foot as your DIL, I'd be very embarrassed.  And my heart goes out to your son, how humiliated and betrayed he must have felt when he read that!  Jokes or not, that was pretty crappy of you and your other children to even mention that, especially online where others can read it and question it.  Instead of clouding the gesture by pointing out how your DIL found it, you have to take responsibilty for that action as your own.

Showing up unannounced and uninvited at her parents' house, even out of "desperation," for your aging mother, was rude.  You have to take responsibility for that action.     

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not playing the devil's advocate and siding with your DIL.  It sounds like she WAY over-reacted in defense of her husband and herself and blew it up far bigger than what you meant it.  But your son is hurt, and he has every reason to be.  No, he shouldn't have made his relationship your business, that's his fault.  But as the wiser and more experienced mother, you should have known better than to get involved.  "Supporting your son" as you mentioned in your post, doesn't come with snide or snarky remarks about his wife, no matter how you feel about her, and whether you meant it the way she took it or not, you still said it.  You have to take responsibilty for that action. 

QuoteI am not minimizing my part at all. Logically I know what is going on here, he is trying to keep the peace with her because he lives with her and now she can hold his two daughters over his head. She is very manipulative. She referred to me as manipulative, when in turn that is a description of her behavior

.

Again, I really believe you are speculating, and you are tagging your DIL as the culprit here, and you haven't written anything in your post that would lead me to think she is really that manipulative  (over-reactive, definitely!  But not manipulative).  I realize there is more to the story than what is written here, so if you are going to continue to label her as manipulative...please give us some concrete examples. 

And I have to say this....of course he is trying to keep the peace with his wife, but that doesn't automatically mean that she is manipulating him to do so!!!  He's trying to keep the peace because he is a good husband spouse, and that's what good spouses do.  He loves her and he married her.  He wants that relationship to last.  He wants a family with two parents in the home, not just one.  You don't know her well, but he does!  He sees in her things that you will NEVER see, you're not supposed to see them.  You're not supposed to understand their relationship, thus its THEIR relationship, not yours.  I'm sorry that might be hard to swallow again, I just don't know how else to put that. 

I'm trying to be very objective here, and please understand that I am not writing with cruel intentions to hurt you, but MagicGraham stated what I think lots of us were thinking.  Kudos to her for approaching it objectively, conservatively and in a mmanner conscious of your feelings, though some of it was hard to swallow for you I'm sure.  But while there is definitely some over-reaction on the part of your son and DIL, I read their actions as purely reaction to things you've done to hurt them.  Your intentions may have been the best, but those intentions obviously weren't presented in a way that would conserve THEIR feelings. 

I re-read through this (and forgive me if I skipped over the part where you apologized to them), but I couldn't find any mention of an apology besides your DILs apology to you when you showed up at her parents' house.  I feel like you really owe your son and DIL a sincere apology if you want to even begin to mend that relationship, and even then it's going to take a lot of forgiveness and understanding from all parties.  I wish it were possible that you ALL go to counseling, together, to work through this.  It sounds like you all need it, just to learn how to effectively communicate with eachother and be mindful of those pesky BOUNDARIES....counseling is not just for "crazy" people.         

Our therapist offered "phone sessions" for us and my MIL because we live so far away (eventhough she wouldn't attend them...it was a good idea!).  Would you maybe be open to that?

                     

In some cases I think a DIL can influence DS. I know that's hard for some DILs to acknowledge, but it does happen. It's tough when it happens to us MIL/FILs who raised sons with the notion that their wives come first no matter what. I guess we never figured that there were women out there who would take advantage of that!

About 8 months into our "banishment", it dawned on me that our son was equally culpable in our mess.  For a long time, I kept thinking "Oh, he will wake up soon".  Slowly, I began to see that he was helping to fuel her fire.

Our youngest is my stepson.  His mother abandoned him from ages 5 to 10 yrs. She would have happily let my husband raise him until another mom-person came along.  She then began to pressure him to live with her and her current boyfriend...who later became her husband.

This move interrupted the natural order of his relationship with his dad.  Sons time in his teens, when he should have been asserting independence with his dad, he was spent drugging and drinking at his "good mother"s house.  Dad was kept at arms length.  I did not like that at the time, but it was not my decision to make.  As a blended family we have always deferred to the primary parent of our three kids.  This allowed us to use our intuition about our kids.  We always shared parenting and feel we did it pretty well until now.

So, Dad deferred. He felt son would come to him willingly when he was ready to be an equal partner in a relationship. Dad has many male friendships lasting many decades.  His friends are with men of  different ages as well.  He is skilled at communicating and other men like him too. 

I don't think son knows how to do this work without some modeling from dad. Son seems to be wanting his wife to do the work for him...out of fear?? or something else??

Apparently, son, in  his quiet moments with DIL, expressed his childhood resentments and hurts.  His wife sees herself as "big momma", stepping in for those weaker and frail, decided to fix all his hurts.  Consequently,  DIL might have built her case against us out of sons' expressed emotions; this in turn gave her license to behave so poorly and with such disrespect. 

Anywhooo...like most of us, these are complex issues with a bottom line. 

We are so happy to be without the drama now.  We love our son and would naturally love his children, but I see no hope for this relationship without years of good family therapy.  Not every therapist is skilled to handle such things.  I don't know if my husband would do this and I am not sure if i would right now either. 

What do you think?  I have never overstepped my step mom boundaries and insisted on therapy and yet, I have a niggling in my ear to begin this process. I did my own therapy in the beginning of this fiasco and she said to wait it out.  She felt no good would come of it.  I wonder about it now that emotions have died down?  I would love input.  This situation is much worse that I could paint, but  what the heck, I would rather hear it here than in Ann Landers too.

Neecee - how wise you are to step back and let the emotions die down.  That's a terribly hard thing for anyone to do.  If you are willing to go to counseling and want to do it, I think all you can do is offer via letter or email.  I applaud you immensely for wanting to go, I think family counseling is a wonderful thing.  My DH and I went, even when his mother refused to.  It helped us understand her behavior and learn how to stop it from destroying our relationship, and also taught us how to effectively communicate with each other without fighting.  It was the best thing we ever did together, besides our daughter of course.  :)

Are you sure you wouldn't like to adopt me as a DIL?  ;D

I think we are all learning here that stepping back for a bit (which implies shutting up for a bit, as well) is often the best way to take stock of the situation. It sure works for me! Thank you one and all.

Quote from: luise.volta on August 02, 2010, 03:10:59 PM
I think we are all learning here that stepping back for a bit (which implies shutting up for a bit, as well) is often the best way to take stock of the situation. It sure works for me! Thank you one and all.

Very, very difficult to step back and shut up without first venting and reacting to a slap in the face, which is the great thing about this site.  Thank you for the site and the time you've given it. If not for the discussions back and forth, we'd never come to any resolution.

Yes, nearly impossible! And we do a good job here of venting and being heard. Very therapeutic. Sending love...