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Problem Solving => Adult Sons and/or Adult Daughters => Topic started by: worrysome on January 06, 2014, 04:37:58 PM

Title: Expectations too High?
Post by: worrysome on January 06, 2014, 04:37:58 PM
My concern is with my DS, lives in another state, married <10 yrs.> with toddler and one on the way.  DIL is a stay at home mom.  Home life includes DIL expressing violent rages almost every month that make no logical sense, alternating with periods when DIL acts perfectly normal and loving, of which, I have observed three rages, one being directed at me.  My feelings are my DS may be experiences battered husband syndrome.  Most the time, he doesn't engage her during these fights, keeps quiet, but has been baited into fights where he gets hurt, or he pushes her to get away from her.  OK, this is not the issue (another post maybe). 
Because he is under so much stress, he forgets things (keys, credit cards, important dates).  The reason for this post is he forgets to thank people for gift from family members - Grandparents, brother and mom (me).  This has been happening for a couple of years and this was not how he was raised.  The latest episode deals with this Xmas.  My expectation is to call after opening gift.  The call came on the normal Sunday phone call (4 days after receipt – tracked box with signature).  Calls to Grandparent (GP) and brother had not been made yet for Xmas gift.  DIL will occasionally call with a thank you when 'she likes' what she received...sometimes not.  However, will thank on normal Sunday phone call, if asked if received.
On Sunday call, DS thanked for gifts, asked what was wrong and I replied, 'what do you think is wrong?'  He acknowledged he hadn't thanked me, and said he was sorry.  I guess I wasn't very excepting of his apology, so he quickly put DIL on the phone.  She thanked for the gifts, and I had to ask about specific gifts (did they fit, etc.).  During our conversation, she reminded DS to call GP & brother.  So I knew they hadn't been thanked either.  After several minutes talking about GD, I asked to talk to DS.  I asked him if he had thanked GP & brother and he started to make excuses but said would do so after we talked.
In our conversation, I told DS that I would be getting my own cell phone plan.  We have an arrangement that they include me on their 'family cell plan', and my payment comes out of expenses for helping them move, helping them decorate their home and making items for their home.  I pay for all the expenses associated with these projects.  In our conversation, he asked why I wanted to change.  I asked him how much this costs per month, and he stated around $15.  I shared a feeling that I wondered if this costs was being applied to: mother's day, birthday and Xmas.  He didn't reply, so I ended the conversation with I love you and please call your GP and brother. 
I know DS was feeling dejected and I didn't feel any better after the call.  So I wrote my feelings down and sent him an email.  I will paraphrase my comments:
•   I told him I love him, and always will, no matter what the circumstances are or will be.  Often times, we hurt the ones closest to us.  I told him I was hurt and disappointed by his actions;
•   Family members feel you don't care or appreciate "our giving';
•   The expectation is to call as soon as you open the gift, otherwise, you forget. I shared, I knew he didn't intentionally do this but it doesn't diminish the 'hurt' feelings it creates";
•   I didn't understand not receiving a Xmas gift – did he just forget?
•   I told him I wasn't mad at him, just hurt, and was not writing this to make him feel less than a man, or to hurt him.  Communication is the key to working out our situation;
•   I asked him to call so we could talk this through....told him "Family is EVERYTHING!!  We are your support system and you need us, as we need you".

Now I'm not sure if I was too hard on him and pushed too much?  Maybe my expectations are too high but this has been the course for the last two years.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: Sarah on January 07, 2014, 05:45:21 AM
Wait..I'm so sorry..did I read this right?  He has one toddler and one on the way and you are upset he didn't thank everyone for gifts and you guilt him and email him and take him to task for this?  IMO, you are pushing him away.  He is a grown man with responsibilities.  Should he thank family members?  Yes, but that is not up to you to dictate.  imo, this is not a battle I would choose to have with my son.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: jdtm on January 07, 2014, 06:10:55 AM
QuoteExpectations too High?

This post may seem harsh - not meant to be so - as I have lived what you are now living.  When our children get married, I learned that the immediate family unit includes the spouse and the children (our precious grandchildren). My immediate family includes my spouse (if one is lucky to have one); and if we  are lucky enough, good friends.  The part that that I found hard to "get" is that my husband and I are now "extended" family.  But that comes with lessened stress and work and expense - the immediate family is responsible for those things (and whether or not they say "thank you"; of course, we get to decide whether or not we give - gifts, money, babysitting, etc.).  And, I find that my husband and I give less and less - partly due to our age, our children's/grandchildren's ages, and the gratitude expressed/not expressed.

As Luise often says that our expectations are fair and reasonable; however, no one (and that includes our adult children) need meet them.  I am now finding this to be true with our elderly parents - what they expect cannot be met by my husband and/or me.  I agree with you that "communication is the key"; but I often find that no communication is the answer (and we don't see or hear from our adult children as much as we would like; the reverse is also true, we don't call or visit our elderly parents as much as they would like).

QuoteNow I'm not sure if I was too hard on him and pushed too much?  Maybe my expectations are too high but this has been the course for the last two years.

What's that old saying - insanity is doing things the same way and expecting different results?  I found that "backing off" was the best course of action for us, and in doing so, I am in less contact with our adult children but I have far, far more activities and friends and happy times without them.  I guess I have just "let go".

Life is not fair and certainly often not what we want or deserve.  But, life can still be very good.  So sorry for your pain ....
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: Pen on January 07, 2014, 08:37:10 AM
Worrysome, we ask all new members to please read the pink-highlighted items under Open Me First on the home page. You will learn how the site started, what the policies are, and you can decide whether or not this site is a good fit for you.

That said, I must agree that you do have high expectations, IMO. Please keep reading old posts to glean wisdom from our experiences. Most of the time backing off has worked better than pushing our DSs.

Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: Pooh on January 07, 2014, 08:46:41 AM
The one thing we learn around here is that our expectations are exactly that.  They are our expectations.  They may be reasonable or unreasonable, but either way, they belong to us and not the other person(s).  Although I will agree I think that anyone should be thanked for a gift, I've never had the expectation that I needed to be thanked immediately upon opening.  If I'm reading correctly, he thanked you on your normal Sunday phone call that fell after they opened the gifts from Christmas?  The other side too is that although I'd like to think my Son has manners, I'm not responsible for telling him to thank other people.  He's an adult and that's his responsibility and between him and the other adults.

I also know it's hurtful for him not to send you a gift, but again, that's your expectation to receive one.  Maybe they didn't have the money and couldn't buy for anyone?  Or maybe they did think that since they pay your cell phone that was a gift in itself?  This is just me, but when it comes to gifts, I never expect one from anyone.  I spent quite a bit on YS/DIL and GS, and they bought me and DH about a $10 item each.  I was very grateful for that little item, because I know they struggle as a young couple and for them to even get us anything was super nice of them.  They were told beforehand not to even buy for us and save their money.  I'm in a place I can afford to provide them with nice gifts, they are not.  When gifts become a competition, I think the spirit of the gift loses it's meaning.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: hairstylist on January 07, 2014, 09:11:54 AM
I have to agree with the other ladies, your expectations are high. I know from personal experience from my MIL expecting my DH to do what she expected him to do, like come to every family function (not caring about my family), buy everyone Christmas gifts (not caring that we just got married and paid for a wedding) and etc. has caused a lot of problems between the two of them, also in our marriage with us fighting and bickering at each other about her. Because she has thought she could tell her grown son what to do they aren't close anymore. I'm sure that she thinks this is all my fault but in reality she caused it.
Try to step back and let your son do his own thing. Since family is everything for you guys try asking what is bothering him instead of just assuming it is the DIL. They may have money issues, job issues, is the baby on the way healthy.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: worrysome on January 07, 2014, 09:41:46 AM
Sorry if I posted something wrong.  My intent was to reach out to this community to help me solve this problem, the one I created. 

That said, thank you for the advice shared.  The posts are not too harsh.  I want your honest opinion. 

New posts are always welcome and encouraged.  I will use it to help me!  Sometimes, we are too close to the situation to really see what we are doing. 
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: Footloose on January 07, 2014, 09:53:38 AM
Oh Worry,
My expectations have exceeded reality at times too!  Stay with us and soak up the experiences and recommendations here.  you are among friends!

Presents and thanks yous are your traditions and priority but obviously not your son's? He has a right to chose his own for himself and new family.  I try to look at it this way instead of pushing my opinions of what is right.  It's not a matter of right vs wrong, it's simply a difference in preferences, like chocolate and vanilla.  The "right" answer is the individual's preference....

Welcome! hugs!
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: jdtm on January 07, 2014, 11:05:00 AM
QuoteSorry if I posted something wrong.

Worrysome - you did not post anything wrong.  Practically every one of us could have written your posting when we first joined.  If only DILs (or SILs) came with instruction booklets.  What we expect is fair and just and reasonable; unfortunately, others do not have to be fair and just and reasonable (even our own children).  By the way, I don't think you (or your son) created any problem; it's just that things change when our children get married (and I believe more so with sons than daughters) and no one tells us!  One day we are of utmost importance in our children's lives and the next - well, in my case, I became non-existent/invisible.   We get to figure this out for ourselves and no one made more errors than I did.  All I did was create a lot of anguish - mostly for me.

As Footloose said - you are among friends and "welcome". 
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: FAFE on January 07, 2014, 03:57:06 PM
Ha!  Our own children do not come with directions, so why should we (that word again) expect our in-laws to come with directions either.  Not making light of the subject or a response, but have said that same thing to my children many times - you did not come with directions, I have done the best I know how.  I would die for you, but I have had to wing it to get you where you are.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: Cranky Pants on January 07, 2014, 06:49:05 PM
Quote from: FAFE on January 07, 2014, 03:57:06 PM
Ha!  Our own children do not come with directions, so why should we (that word again) expect our in-laws to come with directions either.  Not making light of the subject or a response, but have said that same thing to my children many times - you did not come with directions, I have done the best I know how.  I would die for you, but I have had to wing it to get you where you are.

This is some serious wisdom, thank you so much for posting this, I too, have done the best I know how although things haven't worked out the way I hoped.

CP
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: Pen on January 07, 2014, 10:15:26 PM
Quote from: worrysome on January 07, 2014, 09:41:46 AM
Sorry if I posted something wrong.  My intent was to reach out to this community to help me solve this problem, the one I created. 

That said, thank you for the advice shared.  The posts are not too harsh.  I want your honest opinion. 

New posts are always welcome and encouraged.  I will use it to help me!  Sometimes, we are too close to the situation to really see what we are doing.

Oh, you didn't post anything wrong! I'm sorry if my welcome sounded like a scolding :( I try to mix up my wording when welcoming newbies so it doesn't sound rote, but this time I think it came out as a criticism. Again, sorry...and welcome!

I too had expectations, although in my own mind they were very reasonable, lol. I've learned to scale back.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: DixieDarling on January 08, 2014, 03:34:46 AM
Judging from what you've told us about your son and his family he is probably doing his best. If indeed his wife is having some emotional issues (Which if one is on the way may explain some of that with hormones etc) along with a toddler , job, home etc, etc.
You may be the only source he has where he don't have to be perfect? Honestly he sounds like he could use a huge hug.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: worrysome on January 08, 2014, 11:16:33 AM
Thank you, all, for making me feel welcome.  A hug is what I needed. 

Footloose, your wisdom is WISE!

FAFE, I guess I should share this thought with my DSs; it would make me more "human" and one who makes mistakes.  I think our choices were the best we could do at the time.  Your comments made me chuckle, no disrespect intended, as my mom has said this to me.  The chuckle is the realization that I have become my mother.  She shares her expectations when it comes to giving, especially for gifts of money.  I am always grateful, and call as soon as I get the gift (her expectation).  I hear when my children don't thank her.  So my reaction is to share this with DS.  She is the type that will stop giving and the outcome is hurt for the DS who didn't follow her expectation. 

DixieDarling, I know my DS is doing the best he can.  And I have to honestly say DIL is doing the best she can.  I need to do more research to help me understand the rage issues (quote from DS).  I don't know how I should respond when I witness this behavior.  Any insight?

I feel my DS is experiencing what he feels is judgment from me.  All I can do is pray that he will be able to look past this and keep me in his life.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: FAFE on January 08, 2014, 11:44:00 AM
WS, there is a funny thing going around on Facebook that reads "Life does not come with a manual - It comes with a Mother.  (Hope this is not inappropriate to share here.)  Your son is a grown person, who was taught to say thank you for gifts, etc.  I think I would never, ever remind him again to thank someone for a gift.  if it results in him not getting any more presents, then so be it.  If he's really interested in getting presents and saying thank you is the key, then he will make changes.  When he was little it was appropriate for you to encourage and maybe suggest hardily that he did the thank you notes, calls, etc.  Pick your battles and let this one go.  Here's another hug. 
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: Footloose on January 08, 2014, 12:10:41 PM
Worry,
My family used to use me as a middle man too (called in psych: triangles) when I allowed it.  "why has he excluded us? "what did we ever do to him?"  "I still did not get a thank you for the gift" "can he come over to help,,?" " "what is your sister's problem?" "is he going to show up for Easter?"

In my earlier, full nest mom role, i was used to being DS' secretary lite and would coach him to follow our family norms and such but now he is his own secretary, unless wife does it for him but no longer my job, man!

Now any feedback, criticism, nagging and even compliments, I might say:

"I hate to hear about your struggle. I am sad and disappointed about it too but I am sure the other party might be open to making the relationship better and the best thing is for you to talk directly with them..."  or

"It's so nice to hear your compliment, etc, but you really should share with the recipient as I'm sure they'd like to hear from you and u might brighten their day."

I will indulge only to the point that the person with the problem is asking for help on resolving the issue.  I always try the direct approach first, with proper time and place in mind.  If that doesn't work, try an impartial 3rd (not you) who can facilitate the conversation with respect for all parties. If the parties are unwilling to try these two steps then they are not ready to make changes.  What do you do?  Absolutely nothing.  it is not your fight.  Redirect any negative back stabbing comments back to the complainer and tell them that you must leave it between them and the other party.  If they still ignore your boundaries, then tell them you must end the conversation and would be happy to talk again about more positive subjects.

Many times, we want to heal all hurts and slights and get it over in one big pow wow but what is the point?  The past remains the past and all we can do is learn from it. How can a blamed person be expected to remember back years ago?  Feedback must happen as close to the event as possible so it is fresh on everyone's mind for it to even be believed.  So, no going back to 1972.....I call this full dump of hurts, "the greatest hits"  Focus should be on how do we move forward, what are the common ground rules, when can we meet to talk again?

I have been disciplined to follow this since Feb/13 with my entire FOO and it has worked!  They still struggle with getting along and focusing on who is right instead of making real progress but, hey, my life has gotten much more peaceful! 

Hugs again!
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: worrysome on January 08, 2014, 04:53:56 PM
FAFE, hugs accepted and appreciated.  God presented this situation for me to learn.  I AM LEARNING, with help from you and all who have responded.  It's not worth the anxiety.

Footloose, I'm so glad you were able to find a successful approach with your FOO and stuck with it.  :)

Question for all:  How do you handle when (DIL or girlfriend) call and want to tell what is wrong/problem with significant other?  (DIL or girlfriend) tell me problems with their relationship or what (DS or OS) have done or not done.  I'm really not comfortable with hearing 'their dirty little secrets'.  I don't understand the mentality of these 30 yr. old females?  What is the best way to say, "I can't be a part of this" without offending them?  Especially DIL, with GD.

Again thanks to all for your support!
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: jdtm on January 08, 2014, 05:27:28 PM
QuoteWhat is the best way to say, "I can't be a part of this" without offending them?

Preface the statement with "Because I trust you and love you, I can't be a part of this".  And, to make the situation "light", one could add - "it is one of the blessings of being a grandmother" or something similar (followed by a slight giggle or laugh)  and then change the subject.  But, I'm sure others will have other options from which you can choose.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: Stilllearning on January 09, 2014, 02:05:26 AM
How about saying..."Oh, that is more than I needed to know"...I had a neighbor who said that whenever you tried to tell him anything about your health.  My feelings were not hurt but I did learn to stay away from the subject. 

Of course the new way is to just say.."This is awkward"  but if you don't talk that way maybe just tell her that talking about that makes you feel awkward.  It is often less hurtful to describe your feelings rather than to tell someone what they are doing wrong.  Good luck!!
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: FAFE on January 09, 2014, 05:42:16 AM
My mother's mantra was - I didn't make you marry so and so, did not have anything to do with your choice of divorce, but if you are being harmed or abused, I'll move heaven and earth for you.  YOU and YOU CHOICE need to talk about this and make your decisions, etc.  Worked for her and all her 7 children, who(m) she raised by herself. 

One of my first sister in laws told me one day when I was fussing about her brother - YOU chose him out of all the men/boys in the world.  YOU have to deal with it.  And, I learned it was so true.

I think I've wandered off the subject a little, but that's how I roll!  Hugs to all who need them today, and tomorrow, etc.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: Pooh on January 09, 2014, 12:05:12 PM
I've told my DIL when she wants to start complaining about my YS, "Sorry you two are having issues but the one thing I have learned about relationships is that the only people that can work it out, are the two people involved.  It will make your marriage stronger if you can learn to communicate with each other."  And then I change the subject...ha ha.
Title: Re: Expectations too High?
Post by: worrysome on January 09, 2014, 01:22:32 PM
Jdtm, Stilllearning, FAFA and Pooh, thank you for taking time to post these useful responses.   :)

I will have to practice saying these and hope I am ready for the verbal attack. 

I am so pleased I found this support site. 

Thanks Again