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Problem Solving => Adult Sons and/or Adult Daughters => Topic started by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 11:30:08 AM

Title: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 11:30:08 AM
I have one child......a son. He's now 42. I took him out of my first marriage.......an abusive marriage..... before he was even two years old because I could see how badly it was starting to affect him, even at his tender young age. When he was three, I married a man who had no children. We'll be married 40 years this year. My husband has always been a wonderful father and husband. We weren't fortunate enough to have children together, so we focused solely on my only son. He's always been adored, we've always fed his self esteem, always showed our pride in him.

We've never been wealthy, but we've always been comfortable financially. Because we didn't want to worry about son being in unreliable cars, we'd buy him new to fairly-new cars through high school and college. We paid the insurance on them. We also paid for his college education. I won't go into how he took advantage of us by taking my husband's brand new car without permission (when he was in high school) and smashed it up. We also won't go into how he then smashed up the beautiful car we gave to HIM to drive. Those were teen years, and we honestly were naive enough to think they'd pass and that one day he'd realize how loved and fortunate he was...........and there would be a happy ending with a great relationship between us and son.

He'd bad mouth us in a way I never would have dreamed of bad mouthing my parents, even though I had far less in life than my son was given. My husband and I have worked our own way through life..........no help from our parents. Still, we showed respect.

I was a stay-at-home mom, because my husband and I felt that was best for my son. I was always there for him, through whatever he experienced. My husband was always there for him, too. We tolerated many of my son's outbursts, always thinking it was a stage he'd just get through.

We continued to help him any way we could when he got married. They got TV's from us, NordicTrak equipment, we helped them move and make their lawn pretty when they bought a home. We threw an expensive event for them when they turned 40. No great fuss was made by either of them as all these events took place. In fact, they barely spent five minutes with us at the party we threw for them.

It seems their friends have the spotlight in my son's and dil's lives. They do not want children of their own, and I have to wonder if it's because my son is very selfish and doesn't want to share with a child of his own. When the two of them are not at work, they spend every minute with their friends. In the past, I've mentioned how much I'd love to see more of them, since they live only 15 minutes from us; but, each time I mention it, he's jumped all over me and then stops speaking to us.   I would give in by getting in touch with him, so that we could be on speaking terms again.

This past Mother's Day while dining at a restaurant, I asked him, quietly and nicely, if he could find the time to come see us once a week or once every other week. He sizzled with anger. He told me I had just ruined another holiday by bringing up "visits." I asked him if he knew how heartless he was being. He made the most horrible,wicked "grinning" face and shook his head, "Yes!" I was taken aback by this blunt display of cruelty and said, "You mean you agree that you're being heartless?" Again, he made the horrible, wicked, "grinning" face and nodded "Yes." He followed that up with "And I'm not gonna spend the rest of the day with you. I'm going home from here."

Tears rolled silently down my cheeks. My dil said nothing, as it's never been her practice to say anything to him like "These are your parents. They've been loving and generous to both of us, and I think you should show them some respect." SHE would NEVER speak to her parents in this manner. The odd part about that is she's been given more in life since she came into our family, because we spoiled her in ways her parents wouldn't dream of.

If my husband and I could think of any good reason for them to want us out of their lives, this might make sense to us; but we can't! My son hinted that he finds us boring now that we're seniors. He can't stand to visit with us and do nothing but talk. It's just not "him," as he put it.

Though they want nothing to do with us, we still sent her a check for her birthday. Why did we send her a check in spite of everything that's transpired? Because we already honored my son's birthday earlier, so we didn't think it would be right to ignore dil's birthday. When their anniversary came up, we decided enough was enough and didn't acknowledge it at all. That's very out of character for us.

You may be thinking we went overboard in everything we did. Our friends have stated that the only mistake we've made is to make my son the center of our universe. Funny, but I didn't think you could love a child too much or nurture them too much. I honestly believed the only thing that could come from focusing so much attention on a child was love between parents and the child. What a fool I am. How can a person become mean and cruel simply from lots of love and attention? We never visited them unless we were invited, because we've heard so many couples complain about interference from parents and in-laws. But does that mean we shouldn't expect any visits from them, except for maybe 10 times a year? Or if they need something? They never have holidays at their home. My son cut out Valentine cards, because he said he doesn't feel Valentine's Day is meant for parents. Then he made sure he made plans that didn't include us for Memorial Day, the 4th of July, Labor Day and Easter. That left only Christmas and every other Thanksgiving as holidays spent together. The preparations for Thanksgiving and Christmas were left up to me. By the time I was their age, I was already relieving my mother of holiday responsibility for years and years, but they don't seem to think about taking a turn for anything.

Unexpectedly, I received an email from son......the first communication in over six months. It said only:

"Hello. Thought you'd want to know that my father in law had a second heart attack over the weekend, had to have a balloon procedure done in the hospital, but will probably be allowed to come home tomorrow. How are you guys doing?"

That was it. He didn't even sign it.  There was no sign of an apology, no sign of affection, nothing. Am I just supposed to forget how he treated me and the "faces" he made to me and act like nothing ever happened? He's used to having us give in with no apology necessary. He just expects us never to mention it again. We refuse to do that any more.  I responded to his email with "We wish him a speedy recovery."

My husband's birthday rolled around, and son and dil sent him a gift card via email.  Husband was so fed up at this point that he sent son a note saying, in light of what's transpired, he couldn't accept the gift card; and he sent it back to son.  No response.  Christmas came, and son and dil sent a flower arrangement with a card saying "Merry Christmas.  Love, ..........."  No phone calls, no visit.  I responded with an email that said the flowers were unexpected but very pretty.  We gave them nothing for Christmas.  No communication of any kind since then.

I'm in emotional pain every day since this started last May on Mother's  Day.  I cry.  I lose sleep.  I pray.  But no answers come to me.  I'm sick over the separation, yet giving in to my son once again by being the  one to contact him to end this separation doesn't feel like the right thing to do either.  He seems very content to fulfill what he considers an "obligation" by sending us gifts but having no real relationship with us.  What do the gifts mean?  Is it what he considers to be "reaching out" or is it just a "token" of obligation on his part?  Does he feel gifts make up for the time he doesn't want to spend with us?

I'd appreciate any suggestions, and I thank you for taking the  time to consider my problem and letting me know where I went wrong.

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on January 21, 2011, 11:39:14 AM
Angie.. It's not where did you go wrong.. it's where do you go from here.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 11:44:37 AM
Where DO I go from here, Laurie?  It will soon be nine months that I haven't seen my son or talked with him.  I hear from others that he and dil are having a blast meeting up with, partying with and participating in sports with their friends.  I'm having such a hard time trying to understand how son doesn't feel the loss that I feel.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on January 21, 2011, 11:52:57 AM
Dear Angie,

I am so sorry to hear what you are going through, but so glad you have found WWU.  There are many people here going through the same thing, who will offer advice and tell you their stories. I know how you feel, it hurts so much when your children, who you would give your life for, don't seem to care about you.    My odd is also 42, and I do not know if or when I will see her again.  Keep posting, you will comfort here...............Jill
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 12:00:28 PM
How do you live with that, Jill?  The thought of never having a relationship with my son is killing me. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on January 21, 2011, 12:10:19 PM
Welcome Angie and I am so sorry for your pain.  I think you and your DH are doing exactly what you should.  You have set your boundaries by not sending gifts, you answered appropriately the email, and are backing off.  With the way your DS answered last year, he clearly knows what he is doing.  And he clearly knows that you want him to visit.  So now it is up to him.  You can't force him and he is telling you he is tired of hearing it.  Right or wrong, he is tired of hearing it.  So, stay backed off and see what happens.

I think by sending DH a present, the flowers and the email, he at least is still acknowledging that you are in his life.  It may not be how you think he should, but he is acknowledging it.  You did say one thing that struck me.  10X a year and once a week or every other week for a visit?  I do think that is a lot of pressure to put on him since he has a wife and his own life.  I know you miss him, but they do in fact have a life to live.

And I don't want you to think I said that out of meanness.  I haven't seen my DS in over a year, so I know how hard it is.  But if I did have a great relationship with him, a visit or meet for dinner every couple or three of months would tickle me to death.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on January 21, 2011, 12:19:27 PM
I think some people have a problem when they are asked to agree to a schedule of sorts for visits. And while I'm sure you were not trying to set visits in stone, that may be how he took it.

Your son does sound like he did become selfish and self-centered.. I'm sure if you had it all to do over again you would change quite a few things, but that really isn't the issue.  He has grown into an adult who is having a hard time putting any value in your relationship... I too think that you've done the right thing in setting some boundaries for what behavior you will and will not accept.  Through your friends etc you are hearing that he is happy and doing well, for that you should be grateful.  You may have to accept the fact that he will  never apologize for his past actions, because he may not recognize his actions as being wrong. He may have felt that he too was setting some boundaries, just in a rather immature manner IMHO. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 12:35:53 PM
I guess the reason I don't understand the "he has a wife and a life" attitude is because, although I also had a husband and a life and a child to raise, I always made time for my parents........simply because they were my parents.  What happened to respect?  I became bored visiting my parents as they aged, also; but I visited anyway.  During my son's visits, he'd spend time talking to his friends on his cell phone or sitting at our computer.  Then he'd abrubtly leave.  Where did he learn such disrespect?  Certainly not from us.  I see my neighbors' children visiting them often, and their children have children.  I would  think having little children to raise (plus both parents holding down full-time jobs) would leave much less time for socializing with parents, yet my neighbors' children manage to do it.  My son has no responsbility outside of his work.....no children.....nothing.  I would have  loved to have grandchildren.  Son said, "You'd make a wonderful grandmother, but you'll never be one."  I never said a word because I don't believe anyone should have children just to please someone else.  But do I miss the joy I see in those fortunate enough to become grandparents?  Yes, I do.  However, I'd still never say anything about it to son.  I realize it's not my place. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on January 21, 2011, 12:41:49 PM
Hi Angie,

I'm a DIL, and I heard my DH's conversation over the phone with his parents last night.

"Can we skype this Sunday?"
"We started going to Church, so I'm not sure."

I go to church. Not him. Ugh. I asked him about this and he said he doesn't want to commit, when he feels like doing something, he'll do it. He doesn't like the pressure, but he LOVES his parents. The Skype thing has been an issue b/c they would like us to Skype every Sunday; as BIL does with them.

I said nothing while his parents were on the phone.  I think that was his REALLY bad way of setting boundaries; although I'm not sure what Skyping one Sunday has to do with boundaries...he just interpreted it as turning into a possible weekly Skype session.

DIL may not have known what to say when DS acted that way towards you; I still don't know what to say to my DH about what he told his parents last night, and confrontations send me running for the hills.  Please don't take that personally. I can understand why she would want to stay out of the crossfire. What is going on is between you and him; it has nothing to do with her.

DH doesn't like weekly commitments (not even on Skype). Is it possible DS took your suggestion this way? I don't think he handled it appropriately at all, but could it be this was what he was aiming at?

Reading the rest of your post, it does sound like DS is trying to assemble some sort of communication with you (via gifts--lots of the women on here have done that). My guess is that he wants it to be on his terms.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: MrsKitty on January 21, 2011, 12:44:27 PM
I just wanted to say ditto to what Laurie has posted. I also wanted to add that you don't know what your DIL says to her DH behind closed doors--she may well be intervening on your behalf (or not, who knows?). In my opinion, I really don't think it is her place. I personally try to stay out of my DH's relationship with his parents--that is his relationship, not mine and I wouldn't appreciate it if he tried to step into my relationship with my parents.

It seems like you are expecting your son to behave as you behaved or as others behave. He will not. He is his own person with his own thoughts and values. He puts a lot of time into things you may not think are important (friends, socializing)--but that's him. He may not think that the things you value are important.

Perhaps it would be a good idea if you looked into some therapy for yourself, you sound depressed.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 12:51:22 PM
I'd say I'm depressed.  I did seek professional counseling.  The end result was I either agree to his terms to keep the relationship going or make boundaries of my own in order to garner some self respect of my own (I've never been good at saying no to son, even at the sacrifice of my own self respect).  So far I've chosen the latter, but it's not proving to be anything that takes away the pain I feel as a mother.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on January 21, 2011, 12:54:04 PM
Angie,

Have you tried the former? It might lessen the pain since what you've been doing hasn't been helping. I'm very sorry. Although, I'm having trouble as to why respecting his boundaries means that you don't haveany of your own.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 12:56:28 PM
Thanks, holliberri, for giving me the perspective of a dil.  I was thinking that the generations are very different from each other in the way they approach things, but now I'm getting the impression that people can be very different from the way they were raised.
It obviously doesn't have to have anything to do with which generation a person belongs to.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 01:00:59 PM
I have tried the former, holliberri; and each and every time I've been made to feel that, if I'm not the one willing to make the concessions, then there will be no relationshiip.  It doesn't me feel very worthwhie as a person.  I've spent 42 years building self esteem in my son, and I feel son enjoys tearing mine down every chance he gets.  Still I can't stop loving and missing him. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: MrsKitty on January 21, 2011, 01:18:18 PM
Quote from: Angie on January 21, 2011, 11:30:08 AM
This past Mother's Day while dining at a restaurant, I asked him, quietly and nicely, if he could find the time to come see us once a week or once every other week. He sizzled with anger. He told me I had just ruined another holiday by bringing up "visits." I asked him if he knew how heartless he was being. He made the most horrible,wicked "grinning" face and shook his head, "Yes!" I was taken aback by this blunt display of cruelty and said, "You mean you agree that you're being heartless?" Again, he made the horrible, wicked, "grinning" face and nodded "Yes." He followed that up with "And I'm not gonna spend the rest of the day with you. I'm going home from here."
I think that much of your problem with your son stems from your different ways of communicating and "hearing" the other person. It seems to me that you are both saying things that the other person is not hearing.

When you asked for weekly visits he hears:

"Son, you are not spending enough time with me. You are responsible for my happiness and meeting my needs-- and you are not meeting my needs. I want you to commit to a visit with me every week no matter what. If you do not make this visit, I will be very upset with you and it will show me that I do not matter to you."

This is not what you said (or meant), but it seems like this is what he heard.

Then, when he responded, in his mind he said,"No, I am not willing to commit to that. Your needs are not more important than mine and you are pressuring me to sacrifice my needs and wants for your needs and wants. I am not willing to do that."

But what you heard was,"No, you don't matter to me and I don't care about you."

Your response was then that he is heartless. He interprets your response as being--he is "heartless" if he does not agree to sacrifice his own wants/needs/desires in order to meet yours.

I think the two of you have a fundamental communication problem and I would encourage you to go back to therapy. Sometimes, you need more time to sort through difficult things.

Meantime, take this time to spend on your own hobbies and likes. Travel with your great husband--go to the spa...have some fun!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on January 21, 2011, 01:20:54 PM
Angie,

I don't think you'll ever stop loving or missing your son, but on the same token, you clearly aren't getting something from him that it sounds like you need. I think you need to find a way somehow, whether it is through therapy, gardening, quilting, exercise, having friends over, to find happiness for yourself again. You can't depend on your son for that. You need to do it by yourself, for yourself, for no other reason than everyone deserves to be happy.

In my mind, when I feel wronged by others, I know they are going to be happy regardless of what they've done to me...that means I need to make for certain that I'm happy too.  It's the figuring out how to get there that's the hard part.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 01:36:52 PM
Reading the replies from all of you has made me realize something important.  I've LET him manipulate me out of fear that there will be  no relationship if I don't.  However, it was wrong for me to allow the manipulation.  Example:

It's Christmas Eve and dh and I are visiting friends.  Son calls and tells me to go home because he wants to drop by and wants me there.  Instead of telling him I had my own plans, I went home..........just as he told me to.

Son stops by to visit.  "Don't you think it's about time you sell this house instead of spending so much time gardening and keeping up with things inside?"  We respond "Well, we're still able to do it, and we haven't asked anything of you; so why do you think we should sell?"  Son says, "I think it's ridiculous to invest so much time and effort in a house and property." 

We adopt a couple of dogs.  Son's response is "Oh great.  Two more to run your life."  (Yes, we love our pets.  Is that somehow his businiess or something that affects HIS life?)

--------------

I've been abiding by what he wants of me all of his life.  I should have stopped letting him tell me how to live my life a long time ago.  Question.......why doesn't he recognize that he's been doing to me all along the very thing he doesn't want me to do to him?????? 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 01:57:22 PM
holliberri, the things you mention are good advice, and some of them are things I already do; but they don't take the place of a child that became your heart the day you gave birth to him.  No matter how busy I try to keep myself, at the end of the day, I still realize I have no relationship with the person I call son.  I  don't expect him to visit every day.  Maybe the only reason I even bothered to ask for more visits is because, during the vists he did make, he didn't even try to act a little bit interested in my dh and me.  What's a visit to your parents' home when you spend the whole time you're there talking to your friends on your cell phone?  Had he put more "involvement" in the infrequent visits, those visits may have felt so satisfying that I wouldn't yearn for more visits from him. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on January 21, 2011, 01:59:30 PM
Angie, I was exactly like you and your neighbors kids.  I worked full time, volunteered, raised kids, sports, the whole shebang but still managed to get to my parent's and in-laws a couple of times a month.  I love my Mother dearly, but I can honestly admit I went because I wanted to.  But if she had said to me, "Hey, do you think you can come more or every week?" I probably would have resented it.  Because in my head, with everything I had to do, going twice a month was a struggle and even though she may not have meant it that way, I might have heard "I don't think you're doing your part by only coming twice a month".  I went because I wanted to and it was important to not only me, but to make sure she knew I liked visiting.  If at any time I felt like I had to, or that she was guilting me into it, I probably would not have wanted to go as much. 

I do believe as many of these ladie's say all the time, sometimes it's not what we say, but how it's heard.  That's not fair, but so true.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cremebrulee on January 21, 2011, 02:02:51 PM
Angie,
I am so sorry to hear your going thru this, however, from reading all your posts, I apologize for saying this, but it sounds to me, like you created a monster....when your visiting someone and your son has the odasity to phone you and say "you need to come home b/c I'm coming over"...Shhheeesh....and why in the world didn't you tell him, "now is not a good time?" 

Angie, I mean this with a due respect, but you've got to either find a counselor who is going to help you change your way of thinking, or do it by reading up on bullies and spoiled children.

you've made your son your only purpose in life, and he knows it and is way off base in the way he is treating you, and if you continue to cater to his every whim, your unfortunately going to be on the reciving end of his disresect.  I don't know if you've ever heard of this, but do you know, you can love a child to much?  Tough love is what your going to have to learn, otherwise, this will never change. 

I know you love your son, we all do, however, you don't need to be a victim and that is what your making yourself and your son knows it, this is actually abuse and you are enabling him to do so....it's like a spouse who is allowing her husband to beat her up....and the mental result of this abuse can be more devestating and harmful then if he hit her. 

You suggested that your DIL never says anything to him when he treats you so awrful...and I agree, with the other poster who said, it is not in her place, but I'm also thinking as I was reading that, "she is probably afraid to say anything to h im"  because Angie, your only seeing part of how he is....she is living with him and I cannot imagine how he must treat her...this is not love...and you have some very serious decissions to make....but it can't keep going on like this, b/c if you allow it to, your life will be painful and sad....

You can't change him, and yes, as another poster said, he is an adult, but you can put your foot down and tell him no more.....you will not be treated like this and then let him go...your not cutting him out of your life, you are telling him that to treat another human being like this is so wrong....

You cannot depend on him to make you happy, only you can do that, and your allowing  him to effect your whole being...don't...for your husbands sake and for yours, you need to learn how to do tough love...and respect yourselves..no one, but no one deserves to be treated like you are allowing him to treat you just so he thows you crumbs whenever he feels like it and please stop giving them everything...even if the relationship improves, let them make it on they're own....

Angie, come in here and post whenever you need to, there are so many wise ladies in here who are able to guide you and if someone suggests books to read, please do read them...you desprately need to work on your own attitude and change the course of this, b/c the more you grobble, the more he knows it and the more he will treat you so dispicably...remember, your enabling him...

Angie, you have a husband, start focusing on him, and change your way of thinking, and please stop depending on son's love for your happiness...it's almost like he's the parent and you are the child....it's time to put your husband first and start making plans of your own, life is to short to focus on the negative, and your son is not capable of treating you with respect right nowand you or your husband do not deserve this, you deserve much better....so, know that your in my prayers...in hopes that you will be strong and find your way back to your husband, and don't allow your son to treat you like this....he is holding over your head estrangement if you don't cater to his every whim and he gives nothing in return...so don't enable him any more....love him from afar, and start to learn how to change your life around, without him in it...he's married now, let him go his way, but don't allow him to treat you any less then you deserve, and stand tough and strong...

all my love
Creme
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 02:05:20 PM
Let's say that's the case, Pooh.  What do I do now and how do I do it without coming across as, once again, giving in to ds's orders?
Do I email him?  If so, what do I say in the email?  I don't have any idea how to approach this without feeling like I may be getting back a relationship with my son, but I'll be letting him know he's still in charge.  What are the proper words to use?  I guess I'm not a "wise woman." :(
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cremebrulee on January 21, 2011, 02:11:15 PM
Angie, your a wise woman, and a very caring person, you just have to decide what is good for you, not your son, but for you, and then stick to it...for now, if it were me, I'd back off and start consentrating on me...don't email him...let him alone for a while and start learning how to enjoy life without him....

Personally, I think your son doesn't like who he is at all, and from the comments you said he made to you...throughout your posts, it sounds like to me, like he is extremely angry and has a lot of pent up inhabitions...his comments are very cruel and uncaring...and the reason he doesn't realize it, is because he's done this all his life...and he thinks it's ok to be like this?



Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 02:16:09 PM
Thank you, cremebrulee.  Although your post made me cry, I think you hit on what's happening better than anyone.  I see it as a form of abuse also.  We never ask anything of our ds.  The visiting thing seems to be the worst thing to ds that we could have done to him.  All I can say to that is, "Isn't he fortunate."  Everyone who knows us has said they think the way he treats us is horrible.  We were always the kind of parents who wanted to make wonderful memories for ds.  When vacation time came, we'd ask where HE'D like to go......and that's where we'd go.  We kept thinking, if all he has are memories of pleasing, loving parents, how can the relationship  ever go wrong.  It wasn't an ordeal for dh and me, because we're natured to be caring and giving.  But you're right.  We created a monster.  So, if I realize all this, why does it hurt so much not to have him in my life? 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cremebrulee on January 21, 2011, 02:22:47 PM
Because you love him, and loved him maybe to much, so much so, that you allowed him to have his way all the time, so he doesn't know how to not have his way...he thinks the whole world revolves around him, and he thinks this is the way to be...he learned to be like this by always getting what he wanted...again Angie, you were loving parents, and you did a wonderful job, unfortunately he doesn't know any better, and I'm afraid, just by the way you said he gave you that terrible grin of his and acknowledged that he knew he was hurting you, well, that is unacceptable, and if anyone should have gotten up and walked out, it should have been you...and not looked back...
I would have...


Try and calm down, and take it one day at a time...and as I said before, work on you...and learning how to be stronger...learning to consentrate on your life with hubby.

What do you and he do together?  Lets talk about that?  Can you and he plan a weekend getaway, where you can just think about each other...consentrate on smiling and enjoying each others company?  You really do need to find happiness in other areas and stop allowing son to define who you are
Does that make any sense?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: L on January 21, 2011, 02:34:30 PM
Your son sounds a lot like my daughter.  I think my daughter may have narcissistic personality disorder.  I know it rips your heart out how he is acting.  I too did everything for my daughter...loved her, encouraged her, gave her everything material I could, never spanked her or anything ever.  I haven't seen my daughter in over a year but yet she will travel all over the place.  It hurts badly.  Maybe we spoiled them too much!  Still, there is no excuse for their behavior.  I do believe in what goes around comes around so I think he will regret his actions.  I know you are especially hurting because he is your only child.  I know it's hard but maybe the only thing we can do is just take a step back and be the better person by still sending them birthday gifts or a card at least, and same with Christmas and just pray that they will come around.   Sending hugs your way. :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on January 21, 2011, 02:50:10 PM
Hi Angie,
Such great words of advice from all these ladies.  I know how you feel not knowing if you can have a relationshipwith your son.  It is the most difficult I am living with, I think of it every morning when I wake up, and pray about it every night before I go to sleep.   I have another daughter but we are not close, she calls me when she needs a babysitter.  I am beginning to realize that my daughters cannot give me the kind of relationship that I want, to have the closeness that we used to, or I thought we did.  My friends have normal relationships with children, sons and daughters, see them on a regular basis, call them to see how they are, but my children do not want to do that, and I cannot force them to, so I have to step back and try to do the best for myself.  I have been divorced many years, and they are my only family.
Angie, there are some good books available, that I would recommend you read, the first one is "When Parents Hurt" by Joshua Coleman, and I am currently reading "Healing from Family Rifts" by Mark Sichel.  You will feel enlightened by these books, and realize that in many cases, adult children think only of themselves, and not of the mothers who gave birth to them.  My prayers are with you.........Jill
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cremebrulee on January 21, 2011, 02:55:58 PM
yes, Jill, it is like a dark cloud following you around everywhere you go, the pain is always there...however, I do know there is a way to learn how to manage that pain...and there is hope...
honestly...there is hope, we never stop loving our children, however, there comes a time in our lives, when we have to learn how to go on without them...even families that get along have to learn how to do this...if we're lucky they will keep us in they're lives...however, we will never know them the way we knew them when they were little, they've grown up now and have to leave the nest...

someone once said, "when your children leave the home, that is when your real problems start"  and it is true in a lot of cases, especially ours...however, we must learn how to manage and go on without them, they don't need us in the ways they did when we were small...I think, sometimes in our own way, some of us mothers became co-dependent on them for fulfillment...I don't know?  We are each different, however, I do know in my case, it was a huge adjustment when my son left home...awful....and some men, believe it or not, go thru this worse then some of us do....

Angie, Jill, we're in your corner and here to support you as best we know how, with love and through our own experiences...we don't claim to be right all the time....and we learn from each other...but I promise you both, there is light at the end of that tunnel....

Love to you both
Creme
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 02:57:06 PM
It does make sense, cremebrulee; and, actually it's what dh and I do, when the weather allows.  We've been snowed and/or iced in for the better part of winter, which makes things difficult.  DH and I have a wonderful relationship.  To be honest, we don't even have to be going anywhere special or doing anything special.  We enjoy doing yard work together or re-decorating a room together or taking the dogs for a walk together.  It's all so good.  Still, there are reminders all around us that the ds we so love and cared about isn't anywhere to be found.  It hurts.......not just me, but both of us.  My ds's biological father was an emotional and physical abuser to me, which is why I took my son and got out.  However, he's not the one who raised my son.  Yes, he was granted visitation, but he didn't raise my son.  My dh raised my son with gentle, loving care and kindness.  So, why does my son seem to carry the cold, selfish traits of a biological father who didn't raise him?  Is all of it my own fault?  When people are kind and loving, I sit up and take notice and always respond in kind.  I don't take advantage of the love and kindness.  That's why it's so hard for me to get a grip on "you loved him too much." 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cremebrulee on January 21, 2011, 03:04:21 PM
No Angie, it isn't your fault, you loved your son, and you did the best you knew how to do at the time...emotionally and otherwise...and I do believe, that certain genes are passed down to our children...and many things are hereditary...

and yes, there will always be reminders, but how bout we try something...when you start feelings sad, try and think of something marvelous, that made you happy, that doesn't include your son...like your wedding day, or something you did as a child, or a childhood friend, and then sit down and right a story about it...it's difficult at first, but if you put it into practice, each day, it lasts a little longer...do you have neighbors, could you maybe host a party?  Plan something different....

How bout any dreams you and your husband had before your son came along...yanno Angie, we tend to put our dreams aside for our kids...does your husband have any dreams something maybe he always wanted to do, but never did it...discuss this together, and accomplish something like that...do different things, vibrant things, and constantly fight the thoughts in your mind which make you sad...
it is a lot of hard work, but it does help and you will learn to change your thought pattern and your attitude...Angie, your son can't make you happy....only you can...try, will you?

And by the way, there were times when I loved my son to much, we all do, I think, we love our kids sometimes to hard...and sometimes without knowing it, we learn to depend on them for our happiness....when they leave home we are lost, b/c we made them our purpose...

would you also read those books that Jill suggested?  It will help retrain your thought pattern...I would also suggest books that teach you how to be happy...how to sing...how to laugh and remember yoru childhood again....your parents...and smile, lady smile...so your heart will shine....

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 03:08:04 PM
Thank you.........all of you..........for the prayers, the hugs, the advice, the love.  Lord knows I can use them all.  And, Jill, thanks for the heads up on the books.  I'll be looking to purchase them soon.  For all of you........all of us.........whose children had the best that love can bring but threw it away like yesterday's garbage, I wish peace and love and happiness and sunshine and rainbows.  My wish is that what we hope and pray for becomes reality.  Love, Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cremebrulee on January 21, 2011, 03:12:35 PM
Angie, come back and share with us always, and read some of the other posts, it's really a God sent, when your reading someone else's problem and you realize, your not alone, and sometimes, someone says something that really sparks alight in your soul....so, stay here with us...and come in when you feel the need to talk....

hugs and love
Creme
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 03:14:49 PM
I  didn't know you were posting at the same time I was, cremebrulee.  I will be reading your last post over and over again and trying to implement your ideas into everyday life.  At this point, it's really hard for me to imagine that I can turn off the pain I feel; but I realize it's necessary that I try even harder.  You're a doll.  Thank you for your insight.  I hope I don't disappoint you or myself.
Love, Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 03:19:13 PM
I will be checking back, cremebrulee.  If anything new happens, I'll  probably need advice on how to handle it.  Meanwhile I'll read what others are going through, although it  makes  my heart ache even more for each and every one. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 21, 2011, 04:29:20 PM
He's grown. You did your job. He gets to choose what he wants to do with his life and the choice he's made is hard to take. He has that right. You can't change him and wishing he was different is making you ill and ruining your life. Let go. He has.  Get that you were a whole person before you became a parent and you can be again. Move through the acute disappointment and self-pity (I have been there) as soon as you can and let the healing begin. Were here for you. Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cremebrulee on January 21, 2011, 04:36:58 PM
Quote from: Angie on January 21, 2011, 03:14:49 PM
I  didn't know you were posting at the same time I was, cremebrulee.  I will be reading your last post over and over again and trying to implement your ideas into everyday life.  At this point, it's really hard for me to imagine that I can turn off the pain I feel; but I realize it's necessary that I try even harder.  You're a doll.  Thank you for your insight.  I hope I don't disappoint you or myself.
Love, Angie

Angie, it's a long road of do diligence...a constant work in progress, a reprograming of the mind and heart....as Luise said...
your jobs done, you must realize that...and yes indeed, we've all been there, but it does get better, but takes a long time of hard work on changing your attitude...

Love and hugs
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pen on January 21, 2011, 05:57:50 PM
Angie, welcome. It looks as if you've got a lot to think about.

A wise friend once told me, regarding parents of disabled children, that they mourn the "death of the perfect child." As the mom of a disabled child I can verify that - all the stages of grief were there until I finally accepted my daughter and all her limitations as well as her wonderful qualities. I suspect you've got some mourning to do. Your life will not be the same as it was when your DS was younger, and you may never have the "perfect child" all parents yearn for. But your life can still be very wonderful! And it sounds as if you've got quite a prince in that DH of yours. I agree that you might want to put your energy and love into your husband, as well as into taking special care of yourself. You guys deserve it!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 06:31:55 PM
Good evening, ladies; and thank you.  I want to reach the "I'm better now" point.  I thought maybe it would be easier by now.  To me, nine months is a very long time.  Thus far, it has not gotten easier.  I guess, because I never found giving and showing love to be difficult to do, I just assumed that feeling would be passed on to my ds.  I've discovered I have a lot to learn.  Maybe my story is seen as self pity, but I can't honestly say I see it that way.  To me, it's more like an unexpected war that shocked me; and I'm now in post traumatic stress mode.  I will always love him, although I can't say I "like" him at this point.  It's amazing and heartbreaking to learn how many of you have experienced this same thing.  DH and I are now in our twilight years.  It would have been nice to have the last stretch of our journey be peaceful and loving, not just between my dh and me, but with ds and dil also.  Please don't think for a moment that I don't realize what a gem my dh is.  I had a first marriage to compare it to; and, as tough as that row was to hoe, it is a good reminder of how lucky I am to have met my dh.  I'll keep all of you in my prayers, too.  I hope they're answered.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 21, 2011, 06:53:21 PM
Courtney, you bring up a point I've thought about. When he graduated from college and got his own apt., my dh thought for sure I'd be over there cleaning for ds, as well as doing his washing, ironing and cooking.  My dh was basing his opinion on what he watched me do all the years ds lived at home.  However, I told dh that I didn't intend to do any of those things because I didn't want ds to look on me as an interruption to his independence.  Even dh was amazed that I kept my word.  If your point is on the money, then my ds's contempt for me started many years ago when he learned I wouldn't take care of him once he was on his own.  I certainly would always be here for him, but not for those things I did for him while he lived at home, unless, of course, he got sick or something.  DS has become so complex to me that I no longer feel I know him.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 21, 2011, 08:50:26 PM
That actually makes a lot of sense to me. Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on January 23, 2011, 01:34:18 PM
In the beginning I sat and thought about the "Whys" so much.  I would sit and go, "You know, I almost wished I had beat him or something.  At least then I would understand this and be able to have a "reason" for this."  That sounds awful now, and I would never had beat him, but it sounded good at the time.  It wasn't until I accepted that I had not done anything major to cause it, that it became easier to deal with.  We all make mistakes as parents.  A quiet, sensitive child we tend to overprotect.  So they get to grow up and say they were "smothered".  And independent, strong-willed child, we let have more freedom, so they grow up to say "we didn't love them enough".  I think when I became a parent, I said, "I will do this and this, and that and that, because my parents didn't".  Funny now, because I had a great childhood and excellent parents, but yet I can still tell you what I was lacking.  So if that stands to reason, then it would make sense that our children think we were lacking at something.  I think the difference is personal responsibility.  When bad things happened to me as a young adult, I didn't think it was my parents fault.  I either did something to cause it or it was just how life was.  If things were not going how I planned, I had to change my plan.  I have a DS and a stepdaughter that both make excuses for everything in their life.  There is always someone or something to blame.  The YS that I have a great relationship with, takes responsibility for his life.

How do you have a good relationship with kids like that?  You don't.  You have to wait for them to grow up hopefully or you realize that nothing you ever do is going to change them.  You let them know you love them, and that the communication door is always open but that you will not take responsibility for their lives any longer.  I gave them a life for the first 20 years, the next 80 are theirs to figure out. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 23, 2011, 02:02:36 PM
You are so right. When people are into blaming...there is always someone handy to lay it on.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on January 24, 2011, 05:00:15 AM
And it kind of makes it understandable which parent they align with.  My Ex had an excuse for everything and told lies.  My OS is the same, and sees him all the time.  My SD is the same and my DH's Ex is the same, and that's who she stays with.

Not blaming everything on them, but both DH and I take responsibility for our lives and our mistakes.  And we would be the ones to tell them the truth about a situation.  The Ex's would agree with their excuses because that is how they live their lives.  And there is another "AHA" moment for me!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Sheen on January 24, 2011, 07:18:41 AM
hi
I have read thru this thread and agree with all the advice given to Angie. But I have somewhat of a question I guess about the extent that we pull back and concentrate on our own lives.  She has been going thru this for nine months, I have been going thru it for six years and quite honestly I have little hope that my son and I will ever reconcile at this time.  My question is if that contact is never made, what are we suppose to do. For the last six years I have allowed him the space he wanted, I have however sent Christmas, Birthday cards just to make sure he knew that although we haven't spoken, not a day goes by that I don't think of him.This year when I sent his card out, I received it back with a stamp that said forwarding time had expired.  After doing a bit of research thru public records, I found out that he had actually sold his home a year ago and I have no idea where he currently lives at this time.  My address and phone number have not changed so I am assuming if he wanted to reach me there was a way.   Although I think cooling off periods and acknowledging that they are adults and therefore able to live their own lives etc, I was just wondering if you all feel that we should just acknowledge that our adult children are in no way a part of our lives and sadly accept it.   I would be interested in hearing your views.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: L on January 24, 2011, 07:41:34 AM
Hope you are feeling better Angie.  Was just reading the post and cremebrulee's post to you were so good and dead-on.  They really helped me also.  I am suffering much like you and feel a lot in common with you as your son sounds like a male version of my daughter.   I emailed my daughter yesterday and didn't hear back.  No suprise!  The pain of loss is so deep, mine made worse by my dad passing away this November and my mom 2 years ago.  Angie, I was like you...I loved my parents and was a good daughter who was close to my parents and visited them.  My DH and I took them on vacations with us to Florida and were very good to them.  My daughter only thinks of herself and is totally self centered and cruel to me like your son.  She and I live in different states but she won't even come visit.   And of course they need to lead their own lives but they should respect and love their parents and visit occasionally at least.  At least email and call once in a while and be nice.  It's inexcusable.  I know the pain is overwhelming for you, but really we can't control our sons/daughters behavior so all we can do is be good people ourselves.  I think reaching out to others to help them is probably a good idea to get our minds off our own pain and heartache.  Find people who will appreciate you.  At your son's age I don't think you can expect he will change and I know that hurts.  I think they are so used to abusing us that they get some sick pleasure from it.   It is just not normal for them to not have any empathy for their own parents.  I am trying to realize something is truly wrong with my daughter, I think she has a character defect like her biological father.   He had wonderful parents but was a drug addict and total mess.  My daughter is smart and always did well in school though and was never on drugs but she likes the alcohol.  Does your son drink?  I think that can cause problems too.   My husband ( I re-married when she was 12) has been a great step-dad to her but she doesn't appreciate it one bit.   And yes, genes can definitely play a part because my daughter is spitting image of my brother even though they have not been around each other much through her life.  He is very snobby, inmature, sarcastic, self-centered, self-righteous and likes to drink alcohol to much and party just like my daughter.  I also was reading a post here another thread about how alcohol can affect one's brain and cause them to not mature mentally.   I wish you peace and hope you feel better soon.  Take care.             
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pen on January 24, 2011, 08:15:02 AM
These stories are all so heartbreaking. Sheen, I don't know what else you can do but accept that your DS is out of your life for now, since he didn't give you any contact information. It is so painful, I know. I hope he changes his attitude, but in the meantime live for yourself. You deserve to be around those who appreciate the love you have to give. You're not alone, we're here for you.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on January 24, 2011, 08:27:58 AM
Quote from: Sheen on January 24, 2011, 07:18:41 AM
I was just wondering if you all feel that we should just acknowledge that our adult children are in no way a part of our lives and sadly accept it.   I would be interested in hearing your views.

I think there comes a time, when you have exhausted all your efforts, that you have to accept that they are not part of your life right now.  I think that time is different for everyone, and each person has to come to terms with this in their own time.  I think you will always have hope they will return and leave a window open just in case, but move on with your life.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 24, 2011, 08:32:40 AM
I can't improve on that. That's it in a nut shell. (And nut shells are hard to swallow.)  :(
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 09:27:50 AM
Hi, dear ladies.  After reading your responses, I think there's a little info I should add.  My ex (the biological father of my ds) was a cruel, heartless man.  My ds expressed his hatred for him when he was only in his teens and cut off all ties with him, so I can't honestly say I can blame my ds's present actions on my ex........unless, even without contact, the bad traits can still be there.  My ds does drink beer when he's with his buddies.  In fact, the bunch of them seem to have become "beer connoisseurs," knowing the names of all imported beers, as well as the different special blends made here in the USA.  BUT he and all his buddies are extremely athletic.  No matter the season or the weather, they're all out there participating in sports.  To me, that implies that, although they love their beer, they probably aren't abusing it.  Am I wrong?  Here's another thought I'm having......and, once again, I could be very wrong.  I'm thinking that, if I called him and didn't bring up how much he's hurt me, he might just speak to me as though the last nine months didn't even happen.  Okay, but what happens after that?  We may be on speaking terms again, but it will be on his terms...........an occasional visit during which he'll act bored out of his mind while he's here and not be the least interested in us.  I could NEVER expect an apology from him for the faces he made at me because that would infuriate him.  He never wants the past brought up, no matter what he's done.  We've walked that path before, so I know exactly what to expect.  If I should make an attempt to contact him (and that would mean that, once again I have to be  the one to give in, even though I'm the injured party), and it opens up communication again, I have to always be walking on egg shells. 

Before all this happened, my husband and I used to experience tension whenever ds did visit because we wanted so much to make the infrequent visits so pleasurable for ds that he WOULD want to visit again.  DH and I would hand ds the remote and let him choose what he wanted to watch, we'd try always to have something to eat that we thought he'd enjoy.  We'd wrack our brains trying to come up with conversation that would interest ds, since he didn't seem interested in anything that was happening in OUR lives.  If we were all watching a tv movie together and dh or I would ask "What did they say" (because we didn't catch a line), sometimes ds and dil would answer, but sometimes they'd just ignore our question and not answer at all.
 
IF I were to make an attempt at opening the door to communication, and IF he responds in kind, I have to accept that things will be just as they were before.  My ex remarried, which ended up in a second divorce.  I once asked my ds if he had ever seen my ex be physically or emotionally cruel to his new wife.  My ds answered that he had NOT and then followed it up with telling me that my ex's new wife was strong and wouldn't take that kind of abuse.  He said "You're weak."  BTW, the reason my ex got divorced the second time is because he found his "strong" wife in bed with another man.  Anyway, I guess my ds's perception of me is that I'm weak...................not that I'm kind, caring, loving, devoted and loyal......but that I'm weak.  Maybe he's right.  After all, haven't I allowed ds to walk all over me his whole life. 

Anyway, these are just some of the thoughts racing through my mind right now.  Will I act on any of them?  I don't know.  All I do know is that not having my ds in my life is just as stressful as having him in my life with the disrespect.  If I'm confusing you, know that I'm confusing myself also.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: MrsKitty on January 24, 2011, 09:36:37 AM
Hi Angie. I found the below information on a website about domestic violence. I'm not sure if it applies to your situation as your DS was very young when you left, but I thought it might shed some light for you:

What are the long-term effects on children who witness domestic violence?

Whether or not children are physically abused, they often suffer emotional and psychological trauma from living in homes where their fathers abuse their mothers. Children whose mothers are abused are denied the kind of home life that fosters healthy development. Children who grow up observing their mothers being abused, especially by their fathers, grow up with a role model of intimate relationships in which one person uses intimidation and violence over the other person to get their way. Because children have a natural tendency to identify with strength, they may ally themselves with the abuser and lose respect for their seemingly helpless mother. Abusers typically play into this by putting the mother down in front of her children and telling them that their mother is "crazy" or "stupid" and that they do not have to listen to her. Seeing their mothers treated with enormous disrespect, teaches children that they can disrespect women the way their fathers do.

Most experts believe that children who are raised in abusive homes learn that violence is an effective way to resolve conflicts and problems. They may replicate the violence they witnessed as children in their teen and adult relationships and parenting experiences. Boys who witness their mothers' abuse are more likely to batter their female partners as adults than boys raised in nonviolent homes. For girls, adolescence may result in the belief that threats and violence are the norm in relationships.

Children from violent homes have higher risks of alcohol/drug abuse, post traumatic stress disorder, and juvenile delinquency. Witnessing domestic violence is the single best predictor of juvenile delinquency and adult criminality. It is also the number one reason children run away.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 09:48:39 AM
Quote from: Sheen on January 24, 2011, 07:18:41 AM
hi
  My question is if that contact is never made, what are we suppose to do. For the last six years I have allowed him the space he wanted, I have however sent Christmas, Birthday cards just to make sure he knew that although we haven't spoken, not a day goes by that I don't think of him.This year when I sent his card out, I received it back with a stamp that said forwarding time had expired.  After doing a bit of research thru public records, I found out that he had actually sold his home a year ago and I have no idea where he currently lives at this time.  My address and phone number have not changed so I am assuming if he wanted to reach me there was a way.   Although I think cooling off periods and acknowledging that they are adults and therefore able to live their own lives etc, I was just wondering if you all feel that we should just acknowledge that our adult children are in no way a part of our lives and sadly accept it.   I would be interested in hearing your views.

My heart aches for you, Sheen.  I feel nine months is a long time.  I can't imagine six years of this hell.  I continue to hold onto every positive possibility, because I can't bear the thought of this lasting forever (and I'm probably just kidding myself).  My son hasn't moved, and did send gifts even when I stopped sending them.  Should I consider those gifts as "reaching out" to us, or is he just doing it so that he can tell others that he has "tried" but that we're not responding?  What are his motives?  To me, real reaching out would mean a phone call, a visit, an apology.  Should I tell myself, "Well, it's a different generation and it's just not in them to admit they've said or done something to hurt us deeply?"  And why is it always up to the parents to try to rectify things?  Why don't our children consider US a loss as much as we consider THEM a loss?

  I have to wonder, even if I look at this and consider it as "reaching out," is my ds depending on what he considers my "weakness" to get him through his bad actions once again with no explanations or apologies necessary?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 24, 2011, 09:51:51 AM
Please try to remember that we can't reprint anything here due to copyright laws...but we can refer members to URLs. (And yes, I have forgotten and done it, too.) Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 10:01:56 AM
That's really good info, Mrs. Kitty.  I'm not aware of any abuse of my ds towards his wife, although she does seem to agree with everything he says and does.  dil has mentioned some endearing things ds has done to her and for her.  I'd hate to think there's any kind of abuse going on there.  I left my ex before my son was even two years old.  I wonder if the info you supplied would still apply to someone who was taken out of an abusive home that young.

I tend to beat myself up, willing to take the blame for everything, much to my dh's chagrin.  Now I'm wondering if I should take the blame for my ds's behavior because his behavior may be the result of the environment he lived in before I divorced my ex.  There honestly were no indications that there would be abuse before I married my ex.  Even my parents were caught unaware by it because they never detected anything either.  However, if that abuse IS responsible for my ds's behavior, it doesn't really matter whether there were signs beforehand or not.  How do I make it right for him?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 24, 2011, 10:08:14 AM
One thing that if often really hard to get is that we can't undo any parenting mistakes...real or imagined. They are adults and need to work through what is dysfunctional, just like we did. All childhoods are lacking...because life is. There's no perfection anywhere....(real or imagined.) Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on January 24, 2011, 10:17:10 AM
Angie... now this is not the 'oh honey' type of message that I think you tend to respond to better.. but have you read your own postings?  I mean really read them, sat and listened to your own words.  You are so busy finding more ways to blame yourself, in every aspect of your life then you are in finding your inner strength.  Of course your son is going to walk all over you because you are bent on throwing yourself under his feet.  Until you can figure out who Angie is, and find a little gumption you are going to continue to wring your hands asking over and over again.. Why
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 10:21:14 AM
Maybe it's because everything I read seems to lead to blaming parents for what children become or do.  My own parents were tough on me.  They didn't believe in compliments or nurturing a child's self esteem.  Self esteem is not something I grew up with.  That's probably why I worked so hard at trying to feed my ds self esteem.  Does that make sense? 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 24, 2011, 10:22:54 AM
Yes, beyond "why?" there can be "Is is." And often only beyond that..."healing." Not easy to look at but sometimes we are the "bull that needs to be taken by the horns." We are here for you...many of not most of us us had to pass that milepost.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 24, 2011, 10:27:08 AM
Sure it makes sense. And what a lot of us are also learning is that a sense of "entitlement" often arose out of that. The pendulum swings too far oftentimes. Keep thinking about yourself. Set him aside mentally and emotionally, if and when you can, as a painful enigma and think about what you can do now, today, that would bring you joy...and then do it.  :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on January 24, 2011, 10:34:06 AM
Quote from: Angie on January 24, 2011, 10:21:14 AM
Maybe it's because everything I read seems to lead to blaming parents for what children become or do.  My own parents were tough on me.  They didn't believe in compliments or nurturing a child's self esteem.  Self esteem is not something I grew up with.  That's probably why I worked so hard at trying to feed my ds self esteem.  Does that make sense?
Don't you think it's time that you work on your own self-esteem?  Until you do, I'm afraid that all you will ever see is that hideous snearing face your son made to show you what he thought of you as a person..didn't you say that he reinforced those feelings by doing it yet again?

Your son will not respect you until you began to have a little respect for yourself.  Find help, find groups, because you really need to find yourself now.   
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 10:37:09 AM
Quote from: luise.volta on January 24, 2011, 10:27:08 AM
Sure it makes sense. And what a lot of us are also learning is that a sense of "entitlement" often arose out of that. The pendulum swings too far oftentimes. Keep thinking about yourself. Set him aside mentally and emotionally, if and when you can, as a painful enigma and think about what you can do now, today, that would bring you joy...and then do it.  :)


I do believe you're right.......a sense of entitlement arose out of that.  Thinking about myself first is not even natural to me. 
Sure, I'd like to change that; but it's not going to be easy.  I don't even know how to say NO easily.  Saying no to something someone wants of me actually makes me feel uncomfortable.  I've tried it in an attempt to  strengthen myself, but I can't honestly say it made me feel good or strengthened; so I resort back  to being a pushover most of the time.   I KNOW I have to change this!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 10:41:12 AM
Quote from: Laurie on January 24, 2011, 10:34:06 AM
Quote from: Angie on January 24, 2011, 10:21:14 AM
Maybe it's because everything I read seems to lead to blaming parents for what children become or do.  My own parents were tough on me.  They didn't believe in compliments or nurturing a child's self esteem.  Self esteem is not something I grew up with.  That's probably why I worked so hard at trying to feed my ds self esteem.  Does that make sense?
Don't you think it's time that you work on your own self-esteem?  Until you do, I'm afraid that all you will ever see is that hideous snearing face your son made to show you what he thought of you as a person..didn't you say that he reinforced those feelings by doing it yet again?

Your son will not respect you until you began to have a little respect for yourself.  Find help, find groups, because you really need to find yourself now.

Laurie, do you think my son has not seen a different me in the behavior I've displayed in the last nine months?  These last nine months have been my way of trying to show him a stronger me.  Okay, I know  I'm still stressing over not having him in my  life, but HE doesn't know that.  Have the last nine months of being totally out of character from the mother he perceives as weak not been even the slightest indication of some strength on my part?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 24, 2011, 10:51:20 AM
I know you asked Laurie...but I am going to jump in here because I am leaving my computer and going out for quite a while.I'm going to ask if you can write about yourself and not your son and your relationship, or lack thereof. Can you find a glimmer of self, the one before you became a parent? Can your fingers find the keys to tell us who and how she is over, under, around and beyond this issue? It doesn't define you unless you say so. Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on January 24, 2011, 11:00:55 AM
Quote
Laurie, do you think my son has not seen a different me in the behavior I've displayed in the last nine months?  These last nine months have been my way of trying to show him a stronger me.  Okay, I know  I'm still stressing over not having him in my  life, but HE doesn't know that.  Have the last nine months of being totally out of character from the mother he perceives as weak not been even the slightest indication of some strength on my part?
Is your goal to only obtain the perception of being strong, or do you actually want to be strong.  I'm not saying that anything is going to bring your son back, and I'm not saying that it's now your responsibility as to how he chooses to now interact with people.  What is your responsibility is how you continue to use all your last God given breaths pondering why. 

Grab your husband and start living again.  It doesn't matter what your son knows or doesn't know any longer, he's made his decision. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 11:16:59 AM
Quote from: luise.volta on January 24, 2011, 10:51:20 AM
I know you asked Laurie...but I am going to jump in here because I am leaving my computer and going out for quite a while.I'm going to ask if you can write about yourself and not your son and your relationship, or lack thereof. Can you find a glimmer of self, the one before you became a parent? Can your fingers find the keys to tell us who and how she is over, under, around and beyond this issue? It doesn't define you unless you say so. Sending love...

What was I like before my son?  Hmmmmm.  Friendly......still am.  I believed people were mostly good, and now I'm not so sure.  When I was young, I didn't take the world so seriously.  Now I take everything to heart and want to fix it all and make everything better.   I put quite a bit of effort into trying to make people feel better............still do.  I always liked a sense of humility in people rather than a superior attitude..........still do.  I didn't care about politics when I was young but take an active part in them now.  Despite the flaws and the wish to be stronger, I actually like the type of person I am because I'm aware of how far I'll go to help someone and feel the world would be a better place if everyone behaved that way.   I don't really know what you're looking for except to say that before my son I was probably pretty typical of other young women of that time.........working, looking forward to settling down and raising a family.  Nothing out of the ordinary or extraordinary.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 11:21:43 AM
Quote from: Laurie on January 24, 2011, 11:00:55 AM
Quote
Laurie, do you think my son has not seen a different me in the behavior I've displayed in the last nine months?  These last nine months have been my way of trying to show him a stronger me.  Okay, I know  I'm still stressing over not having him in my  life, but HE doesn't know that.  Have the last nine months of being totally out of character from the mother he perceives as weak not been even the slightest indication of some strength on my part?
Is your goal to only obtain the perception of being strong, or do you actually want to be strong. 


Actually...........both.  Both are big changes for me.  Ya know what's funny?  My friends keep telling me that they know from my  past experiences that I AM strong.  I honestly don't know why they feel that way.  I've survived a lot......an awful lot.  I don't feel it gave me strength though.  I did what I had to do.  BUT those things didn't include a child of mine.  Of all I've been through and survived, I see this as the hardest.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on January 24, 2011, 11:52:07 AM
Without a doubt it's the hardest, it's your son.  You say that you now take everything to heart and want to fix all.. is it to avoid fixating on yourself?  Your son is grown, healthy, hopefully happy with his life's decisions, even if they make you sad.. This is your time for regrowth, when and if you and your son come to terms in the future, you will be able to avoid the pitfalls.

QuoteThinking about myself first is not even natural to me.
Sure, I'd like to change that; but it's not going to be easy.  I don't even know how to say NO easily.  Saying no to something someone wants of me actually makes me feel uncomfortable.  I've tried it in an attempt to  strengthen myself, but I can't honestly say it made me feel good or strengthened; so I resort back  to being a pushover most of the time.   I KNOW I have to change this!

:) we don't have to be a scrooge to exert our boundaries.  Not to overuse these words but they really do apply here,  Loving yourself a little more, doesn't mean you love your son any less.   Figure out what it is you need for you and then do it. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 12:08:52 PM
Thanks, Laurie.  I need to do more soul searching and have more in-depth conversations about this with dh.......as if we haven't discussed it enough already.  lol    Part of me is saying to make a move towards my son, even if he perceives it as weakness.  If I decide to do that and ds responds, I realize now I will have to be satisfied with little in the way of visits or anything else.  I will convince myself that the little I may get from the relationship is better than no relationship at all.........I GUESS!  I will,  however, not make myself available at all costs, I will make up my mind never to bring up visits again, and I will make mention to him of any cruel remarks or "faces" he may attempt.  But I have to discuss this with my dh.  If it ever comes to pass that I actually follow through with this, I'll post to let all of you know.  That's a big IF at this point.  ;)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 12:19:39 PM
Quote from: Laurie on January 24, 2011, 11:52:07 AM
You say that you now take everything to heart and want to fix all.. is it to avoid fixating on yourself? 

I don't think so.  I think it's just the fact that I'm as sensitive to others' pain as I would be to my own.  My dh keeps reminding me that, as much as I'd like to, I can't fix everything for everybody.  No one has ever cared about me (parents included) except for my dh.  I think my feelings and needs were so invisible to my parents, even when I needed their attention very badly, that I must have  made myself an unconscious promise never to let anyone else's feelings or needs go unnoticed.  I wouldn't change that about myself, but it can wear me down sometimes. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 12:28:36 PM
Quote from: Angie on January 24, 2011, 12:19:39 PM
Quote from: Laurie on January 24, 2011, 11:52:07 AM
You say that you now take everything to heart and want to fix all.. is it to avoid fixating on yourself? 

I don't think so.  I think it's just the fact that I'm as sensitive to others' pain as I would be to my own.  My dh keeps reminding me that, as much as I'd like to, I can't fix everything for everybody.  No one has ever cared about me (parents included) except for my dh.  I think my feelings and needs were so invisible to my parents, even when I needed their attention very badly, that I must have  made myself an unconscious promise never to let anyone else's feelings or needs go unnoticed.  I wouldn't change that about myself, but it can wear me down sometimes.


I forgot to mention this.  Many years ago, as an adult, my ds told me he was very lucky to have us for parents because, through us, he had the best of both worlds.  He said, "I never have to be hesitant to come to you about anything, mom, because you're so tied into emotions that there's nothing I have to be afraid to tell you; and dad (my dh) is so analytical that there doesn't seem to be anything he can't help me figure out or solve."    I wonder what ever happened to those feelings ds had.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on January 24, 2011, 12:55:42 PM
who knows... and if you've done nothing to deserve his hatred or contempt then why accept it as your destiny?  I figure I have one life, I've gotten a lot wrong but I know I've gotten some of it right.  While my kids were growing up, like everyone of us I would have laid my life on the line in a heartbeat.  I for one can not stomach being walked on or worse by my own children, so I choose not to.  I have different boundaries for my three different kids.. I know some will find that as wrong, but they each have their own unique set of needs and goals and they each react to me differently. 

You can't change who they've become.. I like to blame the worse parts of their personalities on those outside influences :)  but I do accept who they are now, good or bad.  Making the decision to step back for 9 months has got to be trying.. but you never really stepped back as he has eaten at your heart daily. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 01:12:52 PM
You're right.............and OMG do you sound strong!  Wanna come rub against me to see if some of that strength rubs off?  It would be a nice change for me to lead with my head instead of my heart for a change.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on January 24, 2011, 01:30:00 PM
I'm far from strong, but after having your heart broken numerous times in life you began to catch on that, that may not be the way to get to the end as a survivor. 

My problems are not with my son as much as it's the son/dil/her extended family combination.  Of course it bothers me, thus the reason for being here to begin with.  I just have to work a little harder then some women to constantly try and focus on my fantastic relationship with my other son, daughter and husband, and of course our extended family. 

My married son is deployed now and my concerns shift from feeling a little slighted by his wife to worrying about his safety.  And then I feel a twinge of guilt because my son is not in harms way like so many others are and somewhere in all that I try to find a balance in order to live this life that ends all to soon.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 02:06:54 PM
Quote from: Laurie on January 24, 2011, 01:30:00 PM
I'm far from strong, but after having your heart broken numerous times in life you began to catch on that, that may not be the way to get to the end as a survivor. 

My problems are not with my son as much as it's the son/dil/her extended family combination.  Of course it bothers me, thus the reason for being here to begin with.  I just have to work a little harder then some women to constantly try and focus on my fantastic relationship with my other son, daughter and husband, and of course our extended family. 

My married son is deployed now and my concerns shift from feeling a little slighted by his wife to worrying about his safety.  And then I feel a twinge of guilt because my son is not in harms way like so many others are and somewhere in all that I try to find a balance in order to live this life that ends all to soon.


First of all, I'm so very glad to hear your son's not in harms way.......and I hope he stays that way.  BTW, do let him know how grateful we are for his service.    As for the rest, I sit here wishing I had been blessed with more than one child because I wouldn't have focused so much on one.  But then I read your story as well as the stories of others and realize that, with multiple children you can also have multiple problelms.  Handling one is hard enough.  It's so strange to me that I had parents who didn't focus on me at all, yet I called them every day, visited them multiple times a week, cleaned,  cooked and washed for them when they weren't able to, took them into my home to nurse them back to health,etc., yet, after getting better lives, our kids give us heartaches.  I don't get it. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on January 24, 2011, 02:12:20 PM
I have been reading through this thread again, and it has got to be one of the most interesting.  It seems everyone here is sharing their thoughts, and I am nodding my head saying yes, that's the way it is in my case, it is so good that we are opening up our hearts like this.
First of all Sheen, I am so sorry you have lost contact with your son, it must be the hardest thing you have to endure.  I am wondering, have you healed in any way over the past six years, if you have not spoken to him?  Angie, I think your wounds are very fresh, even if it is nine months, I think everyone heals at a different rate, and when it is losing our children, I don't know  if we ever really heal.  I know we all want relationships with our children where we are treated with respect, but if that is not going to happen, do we take whatever relationship we can get, or have nothing to do with our children?
My odd called me last night to invite me to something with my granddaughter, she was curt (bordering on rude) and I could have easily have said "don't talk to me like that" but I thought I get to see my granddaughter and that is one of the most important things in my life.  So I took it, and thought afterwards, it does not hurt as much when she talks to me like that any more. I get to see my granddaughter and that's the most important thing.
I have also been thinking this is part of her personality, she is sometimes quite curt to her husband (not when her inlaws are around), so this is her problem.  Angie, I think you and I had similar backgrounds, I lived with a lot of criticism as a child, and then married a man who treated me the same, so maybe that is why my children treat me like this, mom was always someone who was walked over.   
I think that I can have relationships with my daughters, when they choose to, not the kind I would like, but I will take what I can for the sake of my grandchildren.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 02:38:50 PM
Quote from: jill on January 24, 2011, 02:12:20 PM
  I know we all want relationships with our children where we are treated with respect, but if that is not going to happen, do we take whatever relationship we can get, or have nothing to do with our children?

At this moment, I'm thinking along the lines of some relationship is better than none, even if the relationship isn't great, Jill.  Who knows what I'll be thinking tomorrow. I go back and forth in my thoughts. 

I think you may be onto something re being treated poorly by children because they see everyone else treating us poorly.  During one of my dad's  stays in the hospital, I rushed over there (as usual) and was followed by my ds (the apple of my dad's  eye).  My being there was no big deal to my dad, but my ds's presence brought a smile as big as the sun.  My dad didn't mind telling an uncle of mine (right in front of me) that bringing my ds into the world was the one good thing I had ever done.  I walked out into the hall with tears in my eyes. DS followed, hugged me and said he felt sorry for me because  as great as everything had been for HIM, he knew how hard my parents had been on me.  So, he witnessed my being abused by parents and a first husband.  So, did he just decide he would follow suit?  Sure looks that way.  :'(

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on January 24, 2011, 03:05:54 PM

At this moment, I'm thinking along the lines of some relationship is better than none, even if the relationship isn't great, Jill.  Who knows what I'll be thinking tomorrow. I back and forth in my thoughts.   

Only if that "some relationship" is not abusive.   If you sacrafice your self-worth and self-respect to have some type of relationship, you are gaining nothing and losing yourself. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 03:38:07 PM
Quote from: Pooh on January 24, 2011, 03:05:54 PM


At this moment, I'm thinking along the lines of some relationship is better than none, even if the relationship isn't great, Jill.  Who knows what I'll be thinking tomorrow. I back and forth in my thoughts. 


Only if that "some relationship" is not abusive.   If you sacrafice your self-worth and self-respect to have some type of relationship, you are gaining nothing and losing yourself.
[/quote]

True.  I have a close friend who has three grown children, all older than mine; and she does her best to talk me into staying estranged from my ds, because she's been there.  All three of her children are now on speaking terms with her, after a ten-year estrangement.  SHE made the move towards reconcilation.  However, she keeps telling me that she's always aware that things could go back to where they were if she doesn't watch everything she says or does; therefore, she puts no trust or faith in the relationship.  Her wish was to sit down and have a nice discussion with her children so that things don't turn sour again.  They won't hear of it.  She's not to expect them to apologize and she's not to bring up the past.  It doesn't matter to them whether she was hurt or not.  Get over it!  So she talks and walks cautiously.  I have never in my life felt that kind of power or control.  BTW, she came out of an abusive marriage also.  But I can't believe that all children who come out of these marriages can be so disrespectful, just as not all children who come out of homes where the parents got along well are respectful to their parents. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cadagi101 on January 24, 2011, 04:00:13 PM


Abusive relationships in family's
I will just add my 10 cents worth here because it can be a very large cause of anxiety among  wives from an abusive relationship as to how their kids will turn out and how they will act towards their own families.      I didn't find out until years into my marriage that my dh and his dm and db were physically and emotionally abused by his father.     I thought then and still think to this day it has made him stronger as a person, he respects women enormously he is very kind and loving,  a great worker with fantastic work ethics,  never took drugs and has a beer a day if that,  and would never raise a hand let alone his voice to me or others.   

Our ds is 20  verbally abusive to me and the reason I am on WWU.  Another story I have shared many x's.  So I do somex's think to myself "maybe the abuse and anger dh's  df had  has skipped a generation"  who knows.. but I can only hope my ds is more respectful to his dw than his dm.     I know "higher risk , can , could, might are all words used in the above post and when nervous or anxious we skip those words and think the worst every time.     Maybe that is just me and we live in hope all will work out in the end.
[/quote]
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 04:34:55 PM
Quote from: Julia on January 24, 2011, 04:00:13 PM


Abusive relationships in family's
I will just add my 10 cents worth here because it can be a very large cause of anxiety among  wives from an abusive relationship as to how their kids will turn out and how they will act towards their own families.      I didn't find out until years into my marriage that my dh and his dm and db were physically and emotionally abused by his father.     I thought then and still think to this day it has made him stronger as a person, he respects women enormously he is very kind and loving,  a great worker with fantastic work ethics,  never took drugs and has a beer a day if that,  and would never raise a hand let alone his voice to me or others.   

Our ds is 20  verbally abusive to me and the reason I am on WWU.  Another story I have shared many x's.  So I do somex's think to myself "maybe the abuse and anger dh's  df had  has skipped a generation"  who knows.. but I can only hope my ds is more respectful to his dw than his dm.     I know "higher risk , can , could, might are all words used in the above post and when nervous or anxious we skip those words and think the worst every time.     Maybe that is just me and we live in hope all will work out in the end.
[/color][/color]
[/quote]


Excellent point, Julia; and I'll tell you why.  My dh's father was a cruel alcoholic.  The stories I've heard from dh and his siblings are enough to make one's hair curl.  As rotten as my dh's life was, he is as loving, kind and caring as any person could be.  Everyone who knows him loves him.........well, except maybe for ds.  So, you're right.  My dh's horrible childhood made him decide to walk a totally different path from his father.  I guess it's all a matter of choice.  Maybe, instead of  placing the blame on parents who unfortunately had bad marriages, the "professionals" should place the blame on the children who make the wrong choices in how they conduct themselves.  I, too, could have been a cold, non-caring person, having come from parents who behaved that way.  But I'm not.  I chose a  different path so that I could be a more loving, nurturing mother to my ds.......for all the good that did.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 24, 2011, 05:43:04 PM
Thank you, Courtney.  I just got off the phone talking to a friend.  She doesn't  like my idea of "some relationship is better than none" either.  I said to her, "People keep saying that ds's gift giving is his way of reaching out.  If it is, maybe I shouldn't ignore it."  She disagrees that it's a way of reaching out.  She feels it's just a cheap and easy way to let himself off the hook as far as a relationship  goes.  She doesn't feel for one minute that he wants any relationship with us, because even one  minute of a visit with us is one less minute he has to be with his friends, doing all the fun things that are meaningful to him.  We're just a drag on his lifestyle.  He obviously doesn't want a talking relationship or he would have made an attempt to call or something.  I've had enough of thinking about this for today.   I love happy endings, and I know that's what I'm looking for; but I can't figure out a way to make it happen without selling myself short.

I can relate to how your daughter has been treating you.  There would be Mother's Days that ds and dil would offer to take us out somewhere.  They always walked a good 20 feet ahead of us...........never WITH us.  They'd duck into a store without telling us,  leaving us to look for them;  and heaven forbid we should say something about not knowing where they went, because then we'd be accused of looking for an argument.

Please tell me one thing though, Courtney.  If you didn't have your older daughter to stand by you, would you find it more difficult to have this estrangement with your younger daughter?

Adding this...........DH and I just had a talk.  I asked him, if ds does look on me with contempt because I was the "weak" one, how does he look on his dw who ALWAYS kowtows to him?  Doesn't he see her as weak for always giving in to him?  DH said, "I don't know.  I'm beginning to think the reason he married her was BECAUSE he knew she'd kowtow to him."

My dh and I always hold hands.  DS and his wife never do.  I've never witnessed him giving her even a little peck on the cheek.  He grew up seeing dh and me giving each other a hug or a kiss for no reason.  Whatever ds is working on, he always calls to his dw to come help.  There have been those times when I silently wondered why he needed her to help with things he was doing because they were the sort of mechanical things that men usually do alone.  But she always runs to be his extra hands.  There were also times, though not often because we weren't invited to their home often, that dh and I would be left sitting alone in their living room as they went into the garage to work on some piece of sports equipment.  We didn't know if we should stay or leave.  Why ask us over if you're not going to keep us company?

Then there was the time their pet was dying and ds and dil were going out.  I asked why they weren't staying home with their pet, since they knew they weren't going to have him very much longer.  DS said it could take days for their pet to pass, and he wasn't about to waste all that time sitting home.  I was floored!  I'd never do that to a pet of mine.  Yet, when their pet passed, ds tried to convince me how hard he was taking it.  All I could think was it couldn't have been that hard on him since he wasn't  even willing to sit  home with the poor thing as he was getting weaker. 

Like you, Courntey, I could dredge up a ton of things that show ds's character if I let  myself,  but I guess I've been covering for him for a long time, too.

Do you know I'm actually feeling guilty about exposing all these things re my ds?  I feel like I'm betraying him.....but they're all true, and I have to teach myself to face the truth.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on January 25, 2011, 05:42:27 AM
Angie, I keep following this thread and there are a couple of things you are missing.  1.  You have convinced yourself you are not strong.  I see a very strong women in some of the things you have done.  You left an abusive husband, fairly quickly considering many abused women take years, if ever, to leave an abusive relationship.  You said you left when your DS was two, so that shows that you have much strength in protecting yourself and your child.  You also speak about your childhood and how it was not ideal, yet you managed to overcome that and not follow in those footsteps with your own children and relationship with your second DH.  Again, it takes much strength to change your upbringing and determination on your part.  So in those two things, you were stronger than most people. 

2.  You are mixing up the differences in "nice" and "used".  You want to be a nice person, a person that helps other people, a person that validates others feelings.  There is nothing wrong with being nice and the world definitely needs more of that.  But allowing someone to make you feel less than you are, allowing someone to disrespect you continually, allowing someone to run your life on their terms, allowing someone to make you feel guilty about everything you do...is not being nice, it is being used.

Notice how many times I used the word "allowing"?  Because that is what happens to us in these situations.  We want to fix it, make it better, refuse to believe a child of ours could treat us this way, so we keep on "allowing" them to disrespect us because there is surely a reason for it?  I think you were probably an excellent Mother with great expectations from your DS that he would grow into a man you could be proud of.  Isn't that why we try so hard as Mothers to teach them right from wrong, have values and ethics and treat people nicely?  Of course it is.  We want them to become flourishing, happy adults.  No one wants their child to turn out to be a turd. 

Until you come to the realization that you are a strong woman, that you can be nice but still have boundaries, that his life is in his hands now...not yours, that his marriage is up to him to make work or ruin, that how he chooses to live his life is none of your business any longer....the only business it is of yours is how you allow it to affect you...and how you allow him to treat you, you are going to spin circles trying to search for the whys.

I think your friend was right in her advice, and your DH has been right with his.  They are both trying to tell you that you can't fix him...he can only fix himself.  I love happy endings too, but I don't remember Cinderella and Prince Charming riding off in the carriage with their DS in there with them.   ;D

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Scoop on January 25, 2011, 05:51:18 AM
Courtney - it seems like your YDD had a different experience of her 'growing up' than your ODD did.  I've seen it with my Mom & my Aunt.  Their Mom died when they were young, and then went to live with an aunt & uncle (and 8 cousins) on a farm.  My Mom has happy memories of her time with them, my Aunt does NOT.  To this day she says that she would have rather slept in a dog house than to be separated from her Dad.

My thoughts from reading your post were that maybe your YDD missed you when she was living at her Dad's.  Maybe, at that young age, she wanted her Mom and without knowing your reasons, she saw that you were not around.  How many years of hurt would that be for her?  Even if you explained to her now, what your reasons were, there is no reasoning with her memories.  I can see that she reaches out to you when she needs you and I think that's a good stepping stone.  I hope that you can end this stand-off, because if she thought you abandoned her before and was hurt by it, well, another 'abandonment' is not going to help the situation.

You know, even if you're a good parent, if you're not the parent that the child "needs", they're going to suffer.  I'm thinking of my cousin.  His parents are good people and took really good care of their family.  But my Uncle was more artsy than woodsy.  And my cousin *needed* to go out and do "ultra-boy" things.   Luckily, they lived out in the country and he had my Dad to take him fishing and teach him some woodlore.  I've seen kids who didn't get the parenting they needed and it's sad.

I don't think it would be a bad thing for you to speak with your YDD about her experience growing up.  And I think it would be helpful if you could really listen to her without getting defensive.  It just sounds to me like her 'inner child' may still be hurting for your perceived abandonment of her.

Again, I'm just playing devil's advocate.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 25, 2011, 07:29:28 AM
Quote from: Pooh on January 25, 2011, 05:42:27 AM
Angie, I keep following this thread and there are a couple of things you are missing.  1.  You have convinced yourself you are not strong.  I see a very strong women in some of the things you have done.  You left an abusive husband, fairly quickly considering many abused women take years, if ever, to leave an abusive relationship.  You said you left when your DS was two, so that shows that you have much strength in protecting yourself and your child.  You also speak about your childhood and how it was not ideal, yet you managed to overcome that and not follow in those footsteps with your own children and relationship with your second DH.  Again, it takes much strength to change your upbringing and determination on your part.  So in those two things, you were stronger than most people. 

I actually wasn't very smart, Pooh.  I was married to my ex for three years before my son was born and left during the fifth year of marriage.  I should have gotten out sooner and not brought a child into that situation, but I was one of those gals who  thought my ex would change and love that baby as much as I did and become a better person.  Like many, I learned that doesn't work.  Actually, although it could be considered a mistake to have brought a child into the marriage, had I NOT, I wouldn't have been a mother at all, since my dh and I were unable to have our own child.  I, unfortunately, lost the child dh and I could have had together and almost lost my life in the process; so dh said he didn't want to take another chance and risk losing me.

2.  You are mixing up the differences in "nice" and "used".  You want to be a nice person, a person that helps other people, a person that validates others feelings.  There is nothing wrong with being nice and the world definitely needs more of that.  But allowing someone to make you feel less than you are, allowing someone to disrespect you continually, allowing someone to run your life on their terms, allowing someone to make you feel guilty about everything you do...is not being nice, it is being used.

I know.   :(   I took ingratitude a very long time from my parents, so I guess it was just "natural" for me to take it from the son I adore.

Notice how many times I used the word "allowing"?  Because that is what happens to us in these situations.  We want to fix it, make it better, refuse to believe a child of ours could treat us this way, so we keep on "allowing" them to disrespect us because there is surely a reason for it?  I think you were probably an excellent Mother with great expectations from your DS that he would grow into a man you could be proud of.  Isn't that why we try so hard as Mothers to teach them right from wrong, have values and ethics and treat people nicely?  Of course it is.  We want them to become flourishing, happy adults.  No one wants their child to turn out to be a turd. 

I agree.

Until you come to the realization that you are a strong woman, that you can be nice but still have boundaries, that his life is in his hands now...not yours, that his marriage is up to him to make work or ruin, that how he chooses to live his life is none of your business any longer....the only business it is of yours is how you allow it to affect you...and how you allow him to treat you, you are going to spin circles trying to search for the whys.

Spin circles is the perfect way to phrase it, because that's what I do in my quest to understand how this happened.

I think your friend was right in her advice, and your DH has been right with his.  They are both trying to tell you that you can't fix him...he can only fix himself.  I love happy endings too, but I don't remember Cinderella and Prince Charming riding off in the carriage with their DS in there with them.   ;D

I hope my responses above show up, but your last sentence cracked me up.   I'm ROTF    :D 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 25, 2011, 07:36:35 AM
I'll be away most of the day.  DH and I have to go out of town.  Get back to you later.  I hope it's a better day for everyone.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on January 25, 2011, 08:33:13 AM
Quote from: Angie on January 25, 2011, 07:29:28 AM
I actually wasn't very smart, Pooh.  I was married to my ex for three years before my son was born and left during the fifth year of marriage. 

I still think that showed strength and intelligence.  I stayed in a marriage for 21 years, because I thought an idiot could be reformed into a human being....we live...we learn.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 25, 2011, 06:21:14 PM
My take is that you are at choice and you have standards regarding integrity, respectability and responsibility. You seek out people who make sense to you. She doesn't. That's her choice.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on January 25, 2011, 06:57:01 PM
Quote from: Pooh on January 25, 2011, 08:33:13 AM
I stayed in a marriage for 21 years, because I thought an idiot could be reformed into a human being....we live...we learn.

LOL
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on January 25, 2011, 07:07:35 PM
Been there, done that! :-[
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on January 26, 2011, 12:18:37 PM
Someone posted this on another website; and I thought it might be something for all of us to read and, hopefully, carry with us:

MAY YOU ALWAYS FEEL LOVED
Author Unknown


May you find serenity and tranquility in a world you may not always
understand.

May the pain you have known and the conflict you have experienced give
you the strength to walk through life facing each new situation with
optimism and courage.

Always know that there are those whose love and understanding will
always be there, even when you feel most alone.

May you discover enough goodness in others to believe in a world of
peace.

May a kind word, a reassuring touch, a warm smile be yours every day
of your life, and may you give these gifts as well as receive them.

Remember the sunshine when the storm seems unending.

Teach love to those who know hate, and let that love embrace you as
you go into the world.

May the teaching of those you admire become part of you, so that you
may call upon them.

Remember, those whose lives you have touched and who have touched
yours are always a part of you, even if the encounters were less than
you would have wished.

May you not become too concerned with material matters, but instead
place immeasurable value on the goodness in your heart.

Find time in each day to see the beauty and love in the world around
you.

Realize that each person has limitless abilities, but each of us is
different in our own way.

What you may feel you lack in one regard may be more than compensated
for in another.

What you feel you lack in the present may become one of your strengths
in the future.

May you see your future as one filled with promise and possibility.

Learn to view everything as a worthwhile experience.

May you find enough inner strength to determine your own worth by
yourself, and not be dependent on another's judgments of your
accomplishments.

May you always feel loved.

~Angie~
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on January 26, 2011, 12:47:31 PM
Love that, Angie.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AncientWarriorQueen on February 13, 2011, 04:16:01 PM
Just wonder if your son has had some kind of personality change in the last few years that you may have noticed or if this is normal behavior for him. The reason that I am asking is because narcotics of all kinds are so prevalent in our society and it's never the person that you expect to be on drugs...it's always unsuspected. There are many drugs that would cause a personality change that would resemble narcissism, borderline personality disorder or bi-polar disorder. Where a son would not mind whatsoever seeing his cry or be in emotional distress because of his behavior. Just wondering if you have noticed any differences. I've had a few people in my life treat me pretty badly only to later find out that the person who had treated me that way had been on drugs of some sort. Just an idea.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cd1029 on February 14, 2011, 10:19:56 AM
"I've never been good at saying no to son, even at the sacrifice of my own self respect"

When you do not respect yourself, it is easy to see why your son does not respect you either.

Let him set the boundaries and you find a life of your own that does not include him.  If he calls, talk, if he wants to visit, visit, but do not reach out on your own to him.

Maybe it will improve, maybe not...

But you will have a life of your own, and that's all you have a right to have.  The rest is gravy.

It's hard to see other parents getting from their children what you want from yours, but they are different people.  You have your son and have to accept him as he is.

It is difficult, but essential.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: wcrbkw on February 18, 2011, 11:18:21 PM
Hi Angie,

I've been reading your postings and I feel like we are twins separated at birth!  I too have an estranged son.  He has often put on a silly smirky look and uttered curt comments.  My son doesn't apologize.  He never says he is sorry.  Instead, he has resumed communication with us like nothing ever happened.  Your son's email that ended with asking how you are doing is precisely what I have seen in my son's behavior.  Like you, I have always been so grateful that he was willing to stop the anger and resume a relationship that I just let it go.  I know that my son would probably object to us asking him to visit us with any kind of frequency because he always has insisted that we visit in their home when we see our grandchildren.  Our DIL's parents refuse to make the 1 hour drive so instead they visit in her parents home twice a month for 3 day weekends.  Her parents live about 15 miles from us and they drive right past us on the freeway to get there!  For me....I don't feel cared about.  I have also been having serious depression issues.  In fact, I have been suicidal.  I miss our son and his little family so very much and want everything to be right again.  But, I am not sure things were ever right.   I would be encouraged to talk with my son if he reached out in an email like your son has but I can completely understand your frustration.  Like you, I don't know how to resolve things.  I just wanted you to know there is someone out there on the same path as you......
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Tara on February 19, 2011, 09:03:17 AM
Dear Friends,

I'm moved as I read everyones stories.  I also have a son in his 40's who I have allowed to treat me poorly vs
ending contact   I have settled to some degree for gifts we exchanged over the holidays and a few phone calls now and
then, but when we would get together he would always act out:  be totally 'not there' as has been mentioned,
not show up, be 3 hrs late, etc.  I have thought that some contact was 'better than nothing'.  But yesterday in
therapy I was working on clarifying my boundaries and in discussing these issues she said:  "Well then, something isn't
better than nothing"  this was a deep reflection.  I haven't cryed since a recent traumatic event happened.  But last night when
drifting off to sleep I started  thinking about maybe "something is't better than nothing" and I cryed. 

I think we each have to figure out our own boundaries. 

I'm glad that Sheen, Angie and Cd are here and sharing and learning with the WW.  Its really made a difference in my life.
I also recommend reading When Parents Hurt by Joshua Coleman.  There is a link to an audio telecast which was his into
to a workshop.  Might be worth listening to. 

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 19, 2011, 09:57:55 AM
We're walking with you, Tara. And weeping with you, as well. Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 19, 2011, 10:52:25 AM
I've given much consideration to exactly what you said, AncientWarriorQueen.  I know that he and his many friends are into "high-end" beer, even so far as to learn about many, many imported beer flavors.  They're all athletic and follow up sports with beer.....always.  I don't THINK he's on drugs, but how can I know for sure?  I'm trying to be honest with myself; and the truth is he displayed signs of cruelty and disrespect even as a teen........all of which I attributed to a "teenage stage" that I thought he'd get over.  That didn't happen.  Has he done some nice things for my dh and me over the years?  Yes, but they're easily outweighed by the disrespect and his "me-first" attitude.  We are over nine months into estrangement at this point.  My thoughts are still of him, and I dream about him often.  BTW, he once told me that, were it not for sports, he'd go out of his mind.  I've always let him know I'm here if he'd like to discuss something.......ANYTHING.  He chooses not to discuss anything.  In fact, he makes a point of not wanting anyone to know any of his business; and he's led me to believe that it includes his friends. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 19, 2011, 10:55:51 AM
Quote from: cd1029 on February 14, 2011, 10:19:56 AM
"I've never been good at saying no to son, even at the sacrifice of my own self respect"

When you do not respect yourself, it is easy to see why your son does not respect you either.

Let him set the boundaries and you find a life of your own that does not include him.  If he calls, talk, if he wants to visit, visit, but do not reach out on your own to him.

Maybe it will improve, maybe not...

But you will have a life of your own, and that's all you have a right to have.  The rest is gravy.



I'm trying.  I'm truly trying.

It's hard to see other parents getting from their children what you want from yours, but they are different people.  You have your son and have to accept him as he is.

It is difficult, but essential.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 19, 2011, 11:11:55 AM
Quote from: wcrbkw on February 18, 2011, 11:18:21 PM
Hi Angie,

I've been reading your postings and I feel like we are twins separated at birth!  I too have an estranged son.  He has often put on a silly smirky look and uttered curt comments.  My son doesn't apologize.  He never says he is sorry.  Instead, he has resumed communication with us like nothing ever happened.  Your son's email that ended with asking how you are doing is precisely what I have seen in my son's behavior.  Like you, I have always been so grateful that he was willing to stop the anger and resume a relationship that I just let it go.  I know that my son would probably object to us asking him to visit us with any kind of frequency because he always has insisted that we visit in their home when we see our grandchildren.  Our DIL's parents refuse to make the 1 hour drive so instead they visit in her parents home twice a month for 3 day weekends.  Her parents live about 15 miles from us and they drive right past us on the freeway to get there!  For me....I don't feel cared about.  I have also been having serious depression issues.  In fact, I have been suicidal.  I miss our son and his little family so very much and want everything to be right again.  But, I am not sure things were ever right.   I would be encouraged to talk with my son if he reached out in an email like your son has but I can completely understand your frustration.  Like you, I don't know how to resolve things.  I just wanted you to know there is someone out there on the same path as you......


Hi,wcrbkw; and thanks for your response.  I know too well what you're  feeling.  I also know it would do me no good to reach out to my son.  When we last saw him and I brought up the dreaded "v" word (visits), he said, "You wanna see me?  Come to my house."
My dh responded with, "Fine.  We've always been willing to visit you.  Tell us WHEN."  DS answered, "I don't know."  That told me he didn't even mean it when he said we should visit him.  He was just trying to make it look like not seeing him more often was OUR fault for not visiting HIM.  First of all, they're NEVER home.  Secondly, if he REALLY wanted us to visit, why couldn't he tell us WHEN rather than saying, "I don't  know."  I can't see how this estrangement can ever end.  He WON'T reach out to us, and I CAN'T reach out to him because I'll just be putting myself in a position to be berated by him.  Like you, I find myself fighting depression and sometimes having thoughts I know I shouldn't have.  That's when I remind myself that I have a dh who loves me and would be devastated if anything happened to me.  I have to carry on for his sake, if not my own.  I wish you strength and courage, just as I wish it for myself.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 19, 2011, 11:28:41 AM
Quote from: Tara on February 19, 2011, 09:03:17 AM
Dear Friends,

I'm moved as I read everyones stories.  I also have a son in his 40's who I have allowed to treat me poorly vs
ending contact   I have settled to some degree for gifts we exchanged over the holidays and a few phone calls now and
then, but when we would get together he would always act out:  be totally 'not there' as has been mentioned,
not show up, be 3 hrs late, etc.  I have thought that some contact was 'better than nothing'.  But yesterday in
therapy I was working on clarifying my boundaries and in discussing these issues she said:  "Well then, something isn't
better than nothing"  this was a deep reflection.  I haven't cryed since a recent traumatic event happened.  But last night when
drifting off to sleep I started  thinking about maybe "something is't better than nothing" and I cryed. 

I think we each have to figure out our own boundaries. 

I'm glad that Sheen, Angie and Cd are here and sharing and learning with the WW.  Its really made a difference in my life.
I also recommend reading When Parents Hurt by Joshua Coleman.  There is a link to an audio telecast which was his into
to a workshop.  Might be worth listening to.

Hi, Tara.  Others have suggested reading books; but, when I reviewed how others felt about the books, many of those who had read them stated the books didn't really touch on what they needed; therefore, they got nothing out of them.  When I researched further to find what needs those people had that the books didn't touch on, I came to the conclusion that the contents wouldn't fulfill my needs either.  Don't ask what the reviewers said precisely, because I don't remember word for word.  I only know I came away with the feeling I'd just be wasting my money.  No, that's not an excuse (for those who may be quick to think it is).  I know myself better than anyone, and the negative reviews I read showed the books to be lacking in what I need.  However, not everyone's problems, feelings, needs and emotions are the same; so I'm sure there were those whose needs were satisfied by the books that were recommended.  I'm not even getting satisfaction from any religious material I've read that's "supposed" to offer strength and/or courage.  I read it and feel they simplify everything.  I don't  happen to feel these estrangement cases can be mended as simply as portrayed in most books or religious material. 

I wish I could tell you it gets better.  It's over nine months for me, and every day of living without my ds in my life is a struggle.  I can't just turn off my love, and I don't happen to believe real love CAN be turned off very easily, even for self preservation.
So, I have an inner battle with  myself on a daily basis.  I hope eventually I come out of this intense fog of war a whole person who smiles more often and truly believes that life can be much better than I think it is right now.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on February 19, 2011, 05:52:56 PM
Hi Angie,
Have you tried one-on-one counselling?  I think in your case it might be really helpful.   She will help you cope with the situation.  You mentioned that you did not think the books would be helpful. Have you read them?  I borrowed the  books from the library, read them through once, and then a second time, making notes of all the situations that applied to me, and helpful things that I could use.  There are lots of different scenarious but I am sure you will find something useful.  I found that by making notes I was able to absorb things a lot faster.
I understand how awful you are feeling, I have been feeling the same, but I am starting to improve.  Why don't you and your husband plan something together, a nice trip, a getaway weekend, I think you would feel better if you have something to look forward to.  I probably sound more positive today because I did see my ODD and we were cordial.  I don't expect a normal mother-daughter relationship like my friends have with their daughters, but I will take what I can. It hurts a lot that my friends and their daughters are close, but I have been kidding myself that I had a normal happy family, and am now trying to accept the fact that my family is disfunctional.
Sending hugs....Jill   
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 19, 2011, 08:43:47 PM
Quote from: jill on February 19, 2011, 05:52:56 PM
Hi Angie,
Have you tried one-on-one counselling?  I think in your case it might be really helpful.   She will help you cope with the situation.  You mentioned that you did not think the books would be helpful. Have you read them?  I borrowed the  books from the library, read them through once, and then a second time, making notes of all the situations that applied to me, and helpful things that I could use.  There are lots of different scenarious but I am sure you will find something useful.  I found that by making notes I was able to absorb things a lot faster.
I understand how awful you are feeling, I have been feeling the same, but I am starting to improve.  Why don't you and your husband plan something together, a nice trip, a getaway weekend, I think you would feel better if you have something to look forward to.  I probably sound more positive today because I did see my ODD and we were cordial.  I don't expect a normal mother-daughter relationship like my friends have with their daughters, but I will take what I can. It hurts a lot that my friends and their daughters are close, but I have been kidding myself that I had a normal happy family, and am now trying to accept the fact that my family is disfunctional.
Sending hugs....Jill


Hi, Jill.  Yes, I had one-on-one counseling for quite some time.  She was a wonderful, loving, compassionate woman; but the only options I came away with were either to accept my son on his terms in order to maintain a relationship or do what I'm doing now.  Neither one is pain free.  As much as I love him, my ds's attitude is toxic to both me and my husband; so that creates pain.  Doing what I'm doing also creates pain.

As for getting away, it's not easy for us.  We adopted two rescue dogs less than a year ago.  They had been put through an awful lot.  Neither dh nor I have any family to speak of that we might ask to keep an eye on our dogs, and a kennel is out of the question.  The dogs have suffered enough trauma, and we feel a kennel would have adverse effects on them.  Besides, I would just take my  pain with me.  I never stop thinking about my ds, no matter where I am or what I'm doing, although I do handle some days better than I do others.

As for the books, maybe I'll change my mind in the future; but, for now, I just don't feel anyone's words or advice are helpful.

I'm happy you got together with your ODD.  Since it was at least cordial, my wish for you is that the relationship grows warmer and closer with time.  I know of very few families that are not dysfunctional, even if the parents and children are not estranged.  It seems to be in epidemic proportions.  Dysfunctional seems to have become the norm.  The problem is, when you feel you've given everything you've got at trying to be the "perfect parent," you don't expect it to happen to you. 

Hugs right back to you.
Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: sad mom on February 19, 2011, 10:11:07 PM
All of your comments have helped me in my pain as well. I just always thought my son and I were sooooooooooooooooooo close. I did make him my "purpose", as a single parent with an only child. I did love sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard. Expecting the return "reward" one day for all that love and support. Now for him to slap me in the face with his deadbeat dad, and prefer his company to mine???? It has been a very hard pill to swallow. I never saw that one coming!!!!! "So, why does my son seem to carry the cold, selfish traits of a biological father who didn't raise him?" I almost fainted when I saw that question. My son is acting just like the man who turned his back so many years ago on the both of us, never looked back, but is now the one "rewarded". Thank you for a new realization.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: stilltryen on February 20, 2011, 12:19:33 AM
In my experience, it seems like every only child I've run across has some kind of behavior issues towards their parents.  My DIL thinks life is all about her, because growing up, it was!  She will dig herself in when she decides something and DS has watched her be incredibly rude and nasty to her parents.  My friend's daughter was an only child.  This girl is 31, still  lives with her parents and still treats them like dirt most of the time.  One day she started harping on her dad, calling him names, etc. and before I knew it, I'd opened my mouth and given her the lecture of a lifetime.  My friend (not to mention her daughter) were flabbergasted.  So was I!!  I quickly apologized and told them I had no right to reprimand her, but as I was good friends with her father, I knew how much he loved her and how much he did for her and I didn't think he deserved that.  I could go on with many other stories of only children syndrome that I've run across.  When you raise your child to think that the world revolves around him/her, they tend to carry that into adulthood.  One time my DIL exploded on me and I was so ripped, I turned right around and let her have it back.  I totally took her off guard - and she hasn't done it again.  I think she expected me to be like her mom, boy, was she in for a surprise.  DS stayed totally out of that one, smart boy.  And no, I do not mean to imply that this is only a single child syndrome, I've just seen this kind of rotten behavior in every single child I've run across, sadly enough.  I think my generation (I'm in my 50's) overdid it with spoiling our children.

If I were you Angie, I'd get involved volunteering for your political party.  I'd go travel, I'd get new hobbies and new friends and live your life.  Either he's going to come around or not, but frankly, it's his loss if he wants to keep you out of his life.  You've already taken a stand, don't back down.  The ball's in his court now.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 07:15:22 AM
Quote from: sad mom on February 19, 2011, 10:11:07 PM
All of your comments have helped me in my pain as well. I just always thought my son and I were sooooooooooooooooooo close. I did make him my "purpose", as a single parent with an only child. I did love sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo hard. Expecting the return "reward" one day for all that love and support. Now for him to slap me in the face with his deadbeat dad, and prefer his company to mine???? It has been a very hard pill to swallow. I never saw that one coming!!!!! "So, why does my son seem to carry the cold, selfish traits of a biological father who didn't raise him?" I almost fainted when I saw that question. My son is acting just like the man who turned his back so many years ago on the both of us, never looked back, but is now the one "rewarded". Thank you for a new realization.

Seems we can truly relate to each other's circumstances, sad mom.  It's really heart breaking, and I don't understand or believe it should turn out this way when so much effort is put into the relationship.  I keep wishing I had been blessed with children by my dh, because maybe,  just maybe, some of the "sting" of the pain I'm feeling would be helped.  My dh always asks what makes me think they'd turn out any different from ds.  My answer is always because dh is so good natured (unlike my ex) that perhaps any children we would have had together would have given us a better shot at the kind of relationship we see in some other families.  Unfortunately, it wasn't to be.  I  miscarried the only child my dh and I would have had together.  It was a really bad, serious type of miscarriage.  I nearly lost my life in the process, and dh said he would never risk my going through that again.

I know precisely how you feel, sad mom.  If I could, I'd reach out to give you a much-needed hug.

Angie


Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 07:34:37 AM
Quote from: stilltryen on February 20, 2011, 12:19:33 AM
In my experience, it seems like every only child I've run across has some kind of behavior issues towards their parents.  My DIL thinks life is all about her, because growing up, it was!  She will dig herself in when she decides something and DS has watched her be incredibly rude and nasty to her parents.  My friend's daughter was an only child.  This girl is 31, still  lives with her parents and still treats them like dirt most of the time.  One day she started harping on her dad, calling him names, etc. and before I knew it, I'd opened my mouth and given her the lecture of a lifetime.  My friend (not to mention her daughter) were flabbergasted.  So was I!!  I quickly apologized and told them I had no right to reprimand her, but as I was good friends with her father, I knew how much he loved her and how much he did for her and I didn't think he deserved that.  I could go on with many other stories of only children syndrome that I've run across.  When you raise your child to think that the world revolves around him/her, they tend to carry that into adulthood.  One time my DIL exploded on me and I was so ripped, I turned right around and let her have it back.  I totally took her off guard - and she hasn't done it again.  I think she expected me to be like her mom, boy, was she in for a surprise.  DS stayed totally out of that one, smart boy.  And no, I do not mean to imply that this is only a single child syndrome, I've just seen this kind of rotten behavior in every single child I've run across, sadly enough.  I think my generation (I'm in my 50's) overdid it with spoiling our children.

If I were you Angie, I'd get involved volunteering for your political party.  I'd go travel, I'd get new hobbies and new friends and live your life.  Either he's going to come around or not, but frankly, it's his loss if he wants to keep you out of his life.  You've already taken a stand, don't back down.  The ball's in his court now.

Good for you, still tryen!  I wish I'd had someone like you around to  put my ds in his place.  Instead, what I had was a father who, every time I did try to discipline my son, would say, "Go ahead.  GIVE him reason to run to his biological father!"  And he'd say this right in front of my son!  My father was a stern disciplinarian with me, yet he never hesitated to interfere any time he was present when I was trying to discipline my ds.

I believe you're absolutely right in saying we overdid it with spoiling our children.  On the other hand, I've always felt love and respect for anyone who's gone out of their way to be loving and kind to me.  Why don't kids who are lucky enough to get those qualities in their parents return the same towards the parents?  I keep asking myself what ds's feelings are now that we're not in the picture to spoil him.  Doesn't he feel the loss?  Then I remind myself he picked a wife who took up where we left off, so  ds  probably doesn't feel any loss at all.

I'm still a little active with my political party, but I'm thinking I'll feel so  much better when we're rid of the cold, ice and snow; and I can once more get outside to garden and tinker around our yard in the warmth of the sun.  I know my ds will still be on my mind; but at least I'll be doing something I really enjoy.

Nice to meet you, stilltryen.
Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 08:44:20 AM
Quote from: cd1029 on February 14, 2011, 10:19:56 AM
"I've never been good at saying no to son, even at the sacrifice of my own self respect"

When you do not respect yourself, it is easy to see why your son does not respect you either.

Let him set the boundaries and you find a life of your own that does not include him.  If he calls, talk, if he wants to visit, visit, but do not reach out on your own to him.

Maybe it will improve, maybe not...

But you will have a life of your own, and that's all you have a right to have.  The rest is gravy.

It's hard to see other parents getting from their children what you want from yours, but they are different people.  You have your son and have to accept him as he is.

It is difficult, but essential.

I didn't mean to slight your response, cd1029.  In fact, if I've slighted anyone's response, it wasn't intentional.  Sometimes I think I've "covered" everyone but find out later I didn't.  As for accepting my ds as he is, I guess I don't feel I can do that right now; because  I don't like what he is.  AND I  don't deserve what he is. I deserve better than that.  His friends get the best of him.  Why should I get the worst?   So, for now at least, I'll keep my distance. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Rose799 on February 20, 2011, 10:20:35 AM
Quote from: Angie on February 20, 2011, 08:44:20 AM
As for accepting my ds as he is, I guess I don't feel I can do that right now; because  I don't like what he is.  AND I  don't deserve what he is. I deserve better than that.  His friends get the best of him.  Why should I get the worst?   So, for now at least, I'll keep my distance.
[/quote]

Your story sounds similar in some ways.  Do you suppose this could be the reasoning behind ds' sarcasm & why you don't get an apology?  Looks can be deceiving, dd appears to wear a facade around friends, until one crosses her.  That isn't necessary with dp's, as she already knows where all the buttons are located.  Passive /aggressive personalities don't want responsibility (a reason why ds doesn't want dc perhaps?), they drag their feet, make excuses, are forgetful, promise things & then not deliver, & use sarcasm, then claim they were only joking.  Nothing is ever their fault.   

http://zenpizza.blogspot.com/2008/01/dealing-with-passive-aggressive-people.html



Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: stilltryen on February 20, 2011, 10:45:55 AM
Angie, re: Instead, what I had was a father who, every time I did try to discipline my son, would say, "Go ahead.  GIVE him reason to run to his biological father!"  And he'd say this right in front of my son!  My father was a stern disciplinarian with me, yet he never hesitated to interfere any time he was present when I was trying to discipline my ds.

Yep, I had a dad like that.  Interfered all the time with me & hubby & the children.  One time when DS was 3, we went to the grocery store and when we got home, he wanted to help me carry in the groceries.  I found a sack that had a loaf of bread and had him carry that in.  My dad was at the house at the time and ripped me up one side and down the other because I was a horrible mother for making him carry in that sack.  It had a friggin' loaf of bread, it's not like it was loaded with cans.  So yep, can relate to your comment. 

I don't think anyone has the answer to why giving love and respect for anyone who's gone out of their way to be loving and kind don't return the same.  I do know that it helps to "talk" about it and sometimes something that someone types here makes you think in another direction that you might not have done before.  Sometimes we make small steps and count them towards success.  And I totally and completely agree with you about wanting Spring to show up pdq!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 10:57:44 AM
Quote from: Rose799 on February 20, 2011, 10:20:35 AM
Quote from: Angie on February 20, 2011, 08:44:20 AM
As for accepting my ds as he is, I guess I don't feel I can do that right now; because  I don't like what he is.  AND I  don't deserve what he is. I deserve better than that.  His friends get the best of him.  Why should I get the worst?   So, for now at least, I'll keep my distance.

Your story sounds similar in some ways.  Do you suppose this could be the reasoning behind ds' sarcasm & why you don't get an apology?  Looks can be deceiving, dd appears to wear a facade around friends, until one crosses her.  That isn't necessary with dp's, as she already knows where all the buttons are located.  Passive /aggressive personalities don't want responsibility (a reason why ds doesn't want dc perhaps?), they drag their feet, make excuses, are forgetful, promise things & then not deliver, & use sarcasm, then claim they were only joking.  Nothing is ever their fault.   

http://zenpizza.blogspot.com/2008/01/dealing-with-passive-aggressive-people.html
[/quote]


Boy oh boy, was that ever interesting, Rose!  I've observed my ds when he's around his friends, and I've often come away thinking ds was extremely careful in his approach to his friends......almost as though he was "kissing up" to them.  I couldn't help wondering why he was so careful with them and so blatently harsh with me.  There were times when it actually appeared he might honestly be "afraid and cautious" about how he dealt with them, unlike the way he comes across with dh and me.  Could it be p/a behavior?  Could it be he KNOWS he can't pull the crap with his friends that he pulls with us; so he treads lightly, because he knows they're not about to take it from him the way my dh and I always did?  So many questions run through my mind.  As harsh as he can be with us, I've observed that he actually seems intimidated when in the company of friends or strangers he has to deal with through his work or other things.  I've seen a different person in him when he's with them as opposed to the harsh type of person he is when he's in OUR company.

Last Mother's Day, when this all happened, my dh reminded my ds that, even though "I" never asked for it, ds told me he was going to take one day a month and make it "mother and son day."  DS's response was "I don't remember saying that."  DH said, "Well I was there, and you DID say it.  That was THREE years ago, and you never followed through with it."  I was so thrilled the day my ds suggested a mother/son day.  I was also very stupid to believe it would ever come to fruition.  Did he do it purposely to hurt me once again?  Why?  I never broke a promise to him.

Forgive my lack of knowledge, Rose; but what do dc and dp  stand for?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 20, 2011, 11:04:02 AM
I think you may have gotten a glimpse of how your son wishes he was. We all have an idealized image of some kind and at least you are important in your son's...even though he can't live up to it yet. Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AncientWarriorQueen on February 20, 2011, 11:08:01 AM
I've been reading through all of the postings on this thread and inner relating those to the thread, ("Running out of Time") that I started about my own youngest son. While I read your comments and suggestions here, I realized that my other sons do not treat me very well either. I've concentrated so hard on my youngest son's needs that I neglected to notice how I'm being treated by the older sons. They are not disrespectful, but they are uncaring and inattentive. Both are in the service and so I have given them total leeway however, I've been very poor for several years now. I've dug myself out of a major hole by myself. I'm going to school and moving up the chain at an age that most are thinking about retiring.
Last year I made sure that all had Christmas presents. I had always made sure that they had the best, the brightest and the shiniest. I had always backed them up when they wanted something and had always been there to pick them up when they fell down. Well, I haven't had a mother's day card, a Christmas card or a birthday card since I left their abusive father. Abusive, only to me, and only when they weren't around. My phone calls are usually never answered and never returned. Guess I'm just used to it. I had a promise made to me that one of them would help me fix my car this year. I've been car-less and walked in ice and snow through the winter. He never showed up, forgot about it and that was that. I'm still walking.
I was visiting a very young student dietician in a weekly meeting to help me with my diet. This is through the university. I had binged on candy a couple of days before and she asked me why. I told her it was the only comfort that I could find for missing my children so very much. We had chatted briefly before about my past and I had said something about my ex being abusive...then made a joke out of it and dropped it.
This young, perceptive and quite intelligent young lady looked me straight in the eyes and said, even if your sons never saw what was going on, they felt the strain and stress in the relationship between you and husband and in those situations, sons learn how to treat their mother through the example of their father.  In those circumstances, often, the mother is to blame for the loss of the family when things break up.
Out of the mouth of babes! What can one do to turn things around that was taught long ago. Perhaps it is best to do like so many have told me. Start my life over; continue focusing on the future instead of the past. Concentrate on myself and my future. Find self worth in other things and give myself things to look forward to in my future and on a day to day basis.
I often wonder if it is my sons when they were children whom I miss rather than these men that I hardly know. I have many things to be proud of with each of them, but are they really even the same people that they were?
I could continue to sit here and cry in desperation and complete loss over my sweet children who became selfish men. I could let their self centered, uncaring ways, shape the second part of my life or, I could choose to pick myself up, pull my bootstraps up, and go love others who deserve my time and attention.
Perhaps when my sons are n their 40's or their 50's...maybe when they suffer losses of this magnitude themselves, perhaps when life is unfair to them in some ways, maybe they will look me up and say, "Mama, I really love you, I'm really proud of you, and I'm really sorry that I was never there for you."........or perhaps, when hell freezes over and pigs really do fly and the tooth fairy comes to pay me for all of the teeth that I have lost and Santa brings me a new car, my sons will come home to me. In the mean time, I guess all I can do is to continue walking to where ever my little feet might take me. My suggestion to you sweet lady, is to do the same.



Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 11:11:19 AM
Yep, I had a dad like that.  Interfered all the time with me & hubby & the children.  One time when DS was 3, we went to the grocery store and when we got home, he wanted to help me carry in the groceries.  I found a sack that had a loaf of bread and had him carry that in.  My dad was at the house at the time and ripped me up one side and down the other because I was a horrible mother for making him carry in that sack.  It had a friggin' loaf of bread, it's not like it was loaded with cans.  So yep, can relate to your comment. 

---------------

Boy, can I relate, stilltren.  One night, only months after we were married, I had gone to a ceramics class with my sil while dh stayed home with my ds, who was only three years old at the time. When I got home, my dh told me he had put ds to bed; but, after having been asleep for a while, ds woke up crying.  DH went to pick him up; and, at the same time, our phone rang.  With ds still crying, dh answered the phone.  It was my dad...........checking up on us as usual.  When my dad heard my ds crying, he asked my dh why he was crying.  DH said it was nothing and that ds had a bad dream.  My dad hung up  on my dh and 15 minutes later was pounding on our front door.  When my dh opened the door, he was still  holding my ds, as he had been walking the floor with him, trying to get him back to sleep.  My dad ripped my ds right out of my dh's arms and said, "Give him to me.  I'll take care of him."

See, we were supposed to show respect to my parents; but there was none given in return.  I should have treated my parents the way my ds treats us.  I had every reason to do so............and, looking back, I wish I had.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 11:21:53 AM
Quote from: luise.volta on February 20, 2011, 11:04:02 AM
I think you may have gotten a glimpse of how your son wishes he was. We all have an idealized image of some kind and at least you are important in your son's...even though he can't live up to it yet. Sending love...


If you're right, luise, and I am important to him but he can't  live up to it yet.........then when?  He's 42, soon to be 43.  I'm in my late 60s.  How much time is left to make this right before it's too late?  How much older does he have to get before he's old enough to live up to it?  You're sweet, and I thank you for giving me a possible prospect of hope.  I just wish it would happen.......sooner rather than later.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 11:34:37 AM
Perhaps when my sons are n their 40's or their 50's...maybe when they suffer losses of this magnitude themselves, perhaps when life is unfair to them in some ways, maybe they will look me up and say, "Mama, I really love you, I'm really proud of you, and I'm really sorry that I was never there for you.".

------------------


I used to hear all the time about this "special bond" between mothers and sons.  Did it really exist?  What happened to it?  I just shed some tears for you, AncientWarriorQueen, because you're getting mistreated from even more angles than I am; and my heart just aches for you.  If, in fact, sons do  learn how to treat their mother through the example of their father, is that true even if you take a son out of that bad environment before he's two years old?  Dear Lord, I did the very best I could!  Should I continue to be punished for something I never asked for?  I didn't abuse my ds's father.  He abused  me!

I hope, when your sons reach my son's age, they're more mature and have learned to be respectful of the mother who sacrificed so much for them and gave them so much love.  I truly do.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 20, 2011, 11:55:03 AM
I wasn't thinking about hope and the situation righting itself...although that's always a remote possibility. I was looking at how it is and may always be, regarding an idealized image. There is love in you son's heart,  that was all I was suggesting. I was 73 when my eldest son passed on at age 52, (10 years ago.) It was never resolved but I took comfort in the signs that led me to believe that he wanted to offer more and for some reason, just couldn't.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: stilltryen on February 20, 2011, 11:56:50 AM
Oh Angie, it's amazing what mistakes parents do.  Yep, my dad was always telling me what a horrible mother I was.  Yet, on the other hand, if I had called him and asked him to come over in the middle of the night in a blinding snowstorm to help me, he would have moved heaven and earth to do so.  He was a total contradiction.  He slapped me one time because I asked if I could borrow his car, refused to buy me a car, yet when my brother turned 16, he had exactly what my brother wanted sitting in the driveway, some hopped up Trans-Am.  I had to walk until I was able to buy my own car.  Now he's in his 80's.  One day I had to drive him to the doctor and he said, "Oh, you can drive my car if you want."  I told him, "You never let me near your %^$$#@**& car when I needed it, it'll be a cold day in ^&%$!!* before I ever touch a vehicle of yours."  I'm not mean to him, I'm always there when they need help as well, but now I'm not afraid to tell him what I want to, where before I would bite my tongue.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 12:22:10 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on February 20, 2011, 11:55:03 AM
I wasn't thinking about hope and the situation righting itself...although that's always a remote possibility. I was looking at how it is and may always be, regarding an idealized image. There is love in you son's heart,  that was all I was suggesting. I was 73 when my eldest son passed on at age 52, (10 years ago.) It was never resolved but I took comfort in the signs that led me to believe that he wanted to offer more and for some reason, just couldn't.


OMG, I'm so very sorry, Luise. Being new, I had no knowledge of your circumstances.  I'm glad to hear you were able to take comfort in the signs you were shown.  Bless you.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 12:27:57 PM
Quote from: stilltryen on February 20, 2011, 11:56:50 AM
Oh Angie, it's amazing what mistakes parents do.  Yep, my dad was always telling me what a horrible mother I was.  Yet, on the other hand, if I had called him and asked him to come over in the middle of the night in a blinding snowstorm to help me, he would have moved heaven and earth to do so.  He was a total contradiction.  He slapped me one time because I asked if I could borrow his car, refused to buy me a car, yet when my brother turned 16, he had exactly what my brother wanted sitting in the driveway, some hopped up Trans-Am.  I had to walk until I was able to buy my own car.  Now he's in his 80's.  One day I had to drive him to the doctor and he said, "Oh, you can drive my car if you want."  I told him, "You never let me near your %^$$#@**& car when I needed it, it'll be a cold day in ^&%$!!* before I ever touch a vehicle of yours."  I'm not mean to him, I'm always there when they need help as well, but now I'm not afraid to tell him what I want to, where before I would bite my tongue.


My dad never told me I was a horrible mother, but his actions all pointed to his thinking he was better at parenting than anyone else.  Little did he know how horrible he was at it.  He wanted to take complete control of my ds merely because my ds was the apple of his eye.   I once heard my father say to my ds, "Come to daddy."  It blew my mind.  Still, I said nothing.  What my father put me and my dh through was something my father would never have allowed anyone to do to him.  NOBODY......NOBODY......dared tell HIM how to raise his kids.  Hipocrisy at its best.   >:(
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Rose799 on February 20, 2011, 02:17:55 PM
Quote from: Angie on February 20, 2011, 10:57:44 AM
Boy oh boy, was that ever interesting, Rose! 

From what I understand, p/a is a learned behavior, Angie.  When you're fearful of being hurt, real or imagined, you tend to hide those feelings & come off as something you're not, using whatever tactics work.   All kids learn to manipulate to some extent.  If they try p/a & it works on mom, dad, teachers, friends & foes, why stop?  Given enough practice, it becomes their norm.  The sad thing is that they never really address their fears & insecurities.  It must be exhausting to be on the offense 24/7.  But it isn't any easier for those of us who love p/a's & have to play defense.  As Holliberri said, there are ways of confronting them, like your husband did when he held ds accountable for his actions.  Pay less attention to what ds says than to his actions.   

I've been butting my head against the wall for years, looking for answers as to why dd behaves this way.   Now that I understand, I hope to manage better & not take everything as personally as I have been. 

If that's what you're contending with, you have my sympathies, Angie.

dc –dear children
dp –parents
gc - grandchildren

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 03:43:25 PM
Thank you, Rose.  Now that you've told me what dp and dc stand for, I went back to read your earlier post.  I've often wondered what the true reason is for ds's not wanting children.  He keeps reiterating this is no world to bring children into.  However, knowing how he dislikes responsibility and obligation, not to mention the selfish streak I see in him, what you said above could possibly be true.  He seems to take some interest in the children of his friends and family; but, let's face it.....that requires no obligation or responsibility at all......AND no sarificing.  If all this speculation is actually true, he certainly has his demons to deal with.  That makes me feel sorry for him on one hand; but, OTOH, I've let him know time and time again that I'm here for him for whatever he may need, and he's already admitted that he knows how tied into emotions I am and that he would never have to fear coming to me with any emotional problem he may have.  If he chooses not to discuss his problems, I can't begin to help him or seek help for him. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cadagi101 on February 20, 2011, 04:34:52 PM
Quote from: Angie on February 20, 2011, 03:43:25 PM
  That makes me feel sorry for him on one hand; but, OTOH, .

What does OTOH stand for??
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 04:38:12 PM
It stands for "on the other hand," Julia.   ;)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cadagi101 on February 20, 2011, 04:40:59 PM
Quote from: Angie on February 20, 2011, 04:38:12 PM
It stands for "on the other hand," Julia.   ;)

Thanks, nice to know you are sitting at the computer...I have to wait until the following day to pick up messages from all the yankee doodles on this site....time difference..sorry so of the track of the thread
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 20, 2011, 04:47:44 PM
You're welcome, I'm sure.  I'm catching up on email and just checked the weather forecast.  Looks like we're in for more snow tonight and another wintry mix tomorrow.  We all have cabin fever right about now.  Even those who like winter are tired of it.  Winters have been pretty mild for so long that I guess we've gotten spoiled, but Mother Nature sure seems to be making up for lost time.   :(
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 20, 2011, 07:07:19 PM
Yankee Doodle Noodles!  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Rose799 on February 20, 2011, 07:16:00 PM
Quote from: Angie on February 20, 2011, 03:43:25 PM
I've let him know time and time again that I'm here for him for whatever he may need, and he's already admitted that he knows how tied into emotions I am and that he would never have to fear coming to me with any emotional problem he may have.  If he chooses not to discuss his problems, I can't begin to help him or seek help for him.

Hope, pray & be available if they need us.  That's all any of us can do...  Wishing you all the best, Angie

Rose
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: courtney on February 21, 2011, 12:20:49 AM
Hi. ok, I'm lost. I'm thinking I must be a 'yankee doodle', because I'm in the NE...so, then why am I up? But where is there going to be snow tomorrow?  I hear on the television that would be here...or maybe that's why I'm lost, because I'm up! Angie, Julia, where are you?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cadagi101 on February 21, 2011, 02:30:21 AM
Quote from: courtney on February 21, 2011, 12:20:49 AM
Hi. ok, I'm lost. I'm thinking I must be a 'yankee doodle', because I'm in the NE...so, then why am I up? But where is there going to be snow tomorrow?  I hear on the television that would be here...or maybe that's why I'm lost, because I'm up! Angie, Julia, where are you?

lol Courtney,  I am in Australia, my sister is in the US somewhere (not sure which state).       And our nightime is her daytime!!!        I have just noticed when I post most of the lovely WW are sleeping.  How do I know that?  I don't but..just an observation.  However after I posted  and then scrolled down and realized a lot of the last few posts were posted when I did.  Yet I thought Angie must be in my part of the world but if it's snowing than hey I don't know what I am talking about.... (maybe I'm lost)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 21, 2011, 05:38:58 AM
Good mornin', ladies.  I'm in the northeastern part of the U.S., and we woke up this a.m. totally covered in the white stuff again.  The wintry mix is supposedly coming next, sometime today.  It truly is beautiful to look at, especially when we spot bright red cardinals against the white snow over the dark green of the evergreens.  It's like a Christmas card.  But the beauty is followed close behind by the desire for springtime, lush green and warmth.  Wherever you are, I wish you a wonderful day.

Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 21, 2011, 05:47:55 AM

lol Courtney,  I am in Australia, my sister is in the US somewhere (not sure which state).       And our nightime is her daytime!!!        I have just noticed when I post most of the lovely WW are sleeping.  How do I know that?  I don't but..just an observation.  However after I posted  and then scrolled down and realized a lot of the last few posts were posted when I did.  Yet I thought Angie must be in my part of the world but if it's snowing than hey I don't know what I am talking about.... (maybe I'm lost)
[/quote]


You recently had some devastating flooding in Australia, Julia.  My heart goes out to all who were affected by its strength and fury.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 21, 2011, 07:47:31 AM
I'm in NW - USA. The sun isn't up yet but it's 34 degrees and my dwarf daffodils are in bloom. Snow visible in the mountains (where we feel it belongs.) Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Jesuspsych on February 21, 2011, 08:19:49 AM
This is my first post and am so grateful for this site. Relative to the
Mom with the 42 year old son, I want to support your questions. I have a 25
Year old son that rather acts the same way and has put me in an incomprehensible
place cognitively. Their behaviors seem to be "crazy making" for
me. How as you say can you be kind, overwhelming generous and get cruelty? It doesn't
Make sense. When this happens I personally think does this follow elsewhere in my thinking and it
doesnt as it doesn't for you in that as others correctly post your boundaries now have become clear and well defined. You have a nice husband and things make "sense" with him and others. For awhile I thought there was sone kind of evil intervening and to some extinct I still do. The depression aspect
In my opinion is well tendered as enough emotional pain will bring on s/s of depression. It's so sad though that our concepts of life can be so vulnerable to others that perhaps the only way to deal is change yourself and your way of looking at things. I so understand where you are and know that although you haven't spoken in your posts to this issue you are probably a little angry too. I wish you all the best and pray for the best. Chris C.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 21, 2011, 09:04:32 AM
You're absolutely right, Jesuspsych.  I feel multiple emotions........disappointment, anger, fear, pain...........and still love.  Were it not for the fact that I love him so  much, I doubt I'd feel the other emotions over his absence in my life.   :(
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 21, 2011, 10:37:07 AM
Chris C, I'm sorry I didn't see your "name" until after I posted; and I wish you the very best with your circumstances.  Thank you for the prayers.  I continue  to pray and include all "suffering" mothers in my prayers. 

Hugs, Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Jesuspsych on February 21, 2011, 10:40:12 AM
You know fear does come into it. How do feel
All those emotions and still manage the pain? I have
Actual physical pain when he does things I can't understand
The reasons for. How can they watch their parents suffer
From their hands and still smile and say I love you etc. I so need
To understand the behaviors and the reasonings. I understand
and so enjoy his desire to be an adult and on his own but when
You see someone who's devoted themselves to you how can you be overtly false and cruel?
My son is an RN so it's not that hes mean to everyone just a select
Few to include me. From reading the posts it seems the better you
Treated the kids the worse they treat you. That is fundamentally difficult
To understand. I would like to know more about that. As for other posts I do
Agree for the most part it is manipulation but with good incite from folks like you
That can be understood. I'm pretty sure 99% that my son has
Asbergers Syndrome so I forgave a lot but now I'm 60 and have to deal
With a lot of his for lack of specificity roughness and unwillingness to bend to social mores.
I have gotten to the point this summer where I was almost suicidal from the confusion and the pain.
As of right now I am feeling wonderful to be even able to address all this by writing it and presenting it to others such as yourself who seem to " manage" with all the emotions and overwhelming
Ununderstandable behaviors. I really appreciated your description of things as so much has happened I'm not at the point where I can say this and that he does etc. Hope this wasn't too long. Regards CC
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 21, 2011, 10:51:15 AM
When you feel that badly, please seek outside help. We can't address crisis here. The answer lies within us, not in those we have difficulty with. Many of us need help to be able to get that and apply it in our lives. Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 21, 2011, 12:42:37 PM
I deal with the  pain on a daily basis, Chris.  What is helping me is a wonderful husband and supportive friends and the advice given  on this board.  I'll not try to simplify what you're going through, because I know first-hand that getting through the pain is not simple.  It's hard work.  Some days are better than others.  Some days are absolutely intolerable.  I'm taking one day at a time.  On those days that I find intolerable, I tell myself tomorrow probably won't be as bad.  I still hold onto the hope for an about-face from my ds, which, at this point, would probably take a miracle.  If I don't allow myself something to hold onto, I realize I'll fall; and picking myself up won't be easy.  So far, I'm still standing.  I allow myself a good cry when I feel I can't fight it.  I play with my dogs to fill some of the void I'm feeling.  I no longer feel I'm worse at handling this than anyone else would be.  I'm just different, as we all are; and that's okay.  We don't all handle things the same way.  Be yourself.  Try your hardest to fend off bad thoughts.  Seek counseling if you like, as that may be something to help you along.  Allow yourself those intolerable days without feeling guilty.  We're dealing with the loss of children here, even though they still exist.  Take solace in the fact that your situation is  not uncommon, and you certainly are not alone.  I'm not healed, and I don't  know if or when I'll be able to say I am.  But if I can make it through one day at a time, even with intolerable days in between, I'll consider it progress. 

Warm hugs,
Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: courtney on February 22, 2011, 01:41:40 AM

Hi Chris. I am so sorry to you about the pain you are in.

When I first started reading at this site, I was crying at least once a day, not able to get chores done or be involved in other interests...my mind was racing trying deparately to figure out what I had done, constantly replaying old conversations with my daughter, believing if I tried hard enuf, I could find an answer & all would be well between her & I.
  I could not believe that I had alienated a person I loved so much!

Today she still isn't speaking to me. But I am different. I took all the words of strength & advice & suggestions from these women, and I put them to work for me.
   Number one: I did not feel so horribly alone any more, embarrassed that I was not loved by my own daughter!

   Luise's suggestion that I didn't do anything wrong probably...if there is an answer to that, only my daughter has it, and she's not talking.
I was looking for a logical answer, but my daughter isn't logical right now in the wild life she choses to live-forget looking, I won't find it.

    I did the best I could, nothing to be ashamed of.

If I don't love myself, take care of myself, I won't be strong enuf to help her, should she ever seek me out...
.......realizing that may never happen.

   I listened when these ladies said... to seek out and be around people who do like me & see my worth, enjoy being around me.
  This was difficult!  But I've done it, and it has made a difference.

(Mind you I also do NOT talk abt my daughter, her problems as I see them, or my estrangement with her anywhere but here!)

   Some days are still not very comfortable, sometimes I cry... but I don't feel like there's no answer anymore.

  The answer is that I was 'SOMEONE'  before I was a mother, and that 'SOMEONE' deserves to enjoy life too.

  Thank you again all you very wise women, and all who post here.  My life is very different than it was less than 3 month's ago.

  Chris, I wish for you the same sense of 'it's going to be ok', that I have now.
You have to do the work, and it isn't what we want...but it's ok, and better than crying every day.
  lots of well wishes sent to you...   
-COURTNEY
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 24, 2011, 02:48:22 PM
I just came from the hospital where one of my best friends is dying.  My ds knows her.  Do you think I should email ds a short note to say she's dying?  Or should I let him read it in the paper when it happens?  I'm so torn apart by her approaching death that I can't even think straight right now.  She's never been afraid of dying, but she's always been afraid of suffering before dying; and suffering is, unfortunately, what she's going through.  It's so very painful for me to watch.  They'll be transferring her to another hospital which has better facilities to make her more comfortable.  I'll be spending as much time as I can with her and still praying for a miracle, because that's what the doctors say it will take for her to pull through.  Meanwhile, what is your opinion about informing my son?  My dh said it might be a good idea to let ds know, but I'm no so sure; because I don't know how it will be received by ds.  He hasn't seen my friend in a few years.  Will he even care?  And, if you're a praying person, would you be so kind as to tuck in an extra prayer for my dear friend.  Thank you.   :'(

Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on February 24, 2011, 02:52:05 PM
Was he close to her?  Close enough to want to go see her?  If not, honestly...I'm not sure that I would send anything.  This happened to my DH with his mom.  He had just sent her a letter explaining why he is not associating with her right now and giving her an opportunity to right her wrongs.  She ignored the letter and started sending other correspondence having nothing to do with it.  One of them was "So and so died the other day.  You knew her in high school, remember?  She always liked you, I just thought you would want to know."  He was pissed, and he felt like it was a way to make him feel bad or suck him back in because this lady was completely irrelevant to his life.  It's a tough one- I think you have to judge based on whether or not they were close.  Did they see each other because they sought out each other to visit or because of circumstance?  You have good intuition- right or wrong, he may not receive it well.  If you think he won't be mad that you didn't tell him, maybe err on the side of caution?  Hugs.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 24, 2011, 02:57:30 PM
I think this may be one of those "darned if you do/darned if don't/ things. If you don't...there a "how could you?" in the wings and if you do...it's "You'll use any excuse to contact me!" (Hope I'm wrong!)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 24, 2011, 03:49:43 PM
Dear son has known her as long as I have.  In fact, there were many years that they worked at the same place.  However, that was quite a few years back; and the only time ds did see her was at a 4th of July cookout we had at our home about three years ago.
Other than that, he did not seek her out.  This is such a sticky situation for me.........."darned if I do and darned if I don't" says it well.  Remember, he did email me during this estrangement to inform me of his fil's heart attack.  Do I follow suit, or is it different because my friend is not a family member?   
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 24, 2011, 03:54:06 PM
I think it's different and silence is the best policy.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 24, 2011, 03:57:22 PM
I guess I'll keep it to myself. Thanks for being here with a "shoulder."  I appreciate it. 

Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 24, 2011, 04:03:21 PM
Keep us posted. We care...a lot. Sending prayers for her "highest and greatest good."
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 24, 2011, 04:17:23 PM
Will do.......and thank you for the prayers.  I know my df would thank you, too.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on February 24, 2011, 05:20:44 PM
Hi Angie,
I feel differently here, I think I would let him know, you said they worked together.  If he finds out later, after she has passed away, he might be mad that you did not let him know. 
I agree it is one of those darned if you do or darned if you don't situations, but follow what feels best for you.  Best wishes................Jill
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on February 24, 2011, 06:13:15 PM
Is there anyone else you could trust to contact him?

It seems like mixed messages, he can contact you..... So what does your gut say? 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 06:19:07 AM
Because I'm so torn, I was willing to follow whatever the majority said here.  My gut says to let him know and let the cards fall where they may.  Could things be any worse than they already are between him and me?  I doubt it.  So, I was thinking, since things are about as bad as they can be, what's the real risk in telling him?  None, as far as I can see.  There's no one I can think of who might let him know.......and, even if there were someone, THAT could cause friction, too; because he may wonder why I didn't let him know myself.  I'm still hoping for a miracle for my df.  I don't like the hospital she's in and don't believe she's getting the best of care.  I'm hoping she's moved to a better hospital where they're better equipped to care for pulmonary patients.  The nurses at the hospital she's in right now said they were going to try to transfer her to the "better" hospital today, but there seems to be a problem with their transferring her along with all the equipment she's hooked up to.  I don't understand that at all.  Since when can't patients be transferred and still be hooked up to necessary equipment?  Maybe her chances for a miracle survival would be greater at a better facility, and she wouldn't be facing death.  Maybe the staff at a better hospital would tell the family that her chances are far better with them.  I'm hoping the family fights for her tranfer before it's too late.  It's all I could think about all night long.....all the "maybe's" and "what if's."
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on February 25, 2011, 06:34:54 AM
I will admit that even though I haven't spoken to DS in months, if someone I knew he was close to was in this situation, I would probably text him and let him know.  It would be his decision if he follows through.  But I would keep it to the facts, and not think that was an open door between us.  And I would not be upset if he didn't answer me.  I wouldn't expect it.  I would be going by my gut, as Pam put it.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on February 25, 2011, 06:40:15 AM
Angie, then I would tell him.  Like Pooh said, a text with no expectations of a response.  Just the facts.  I think it will relieve your mind and you can then focus on best supporting your friend. 

(((Hugs)))
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 06:45:19 AM
Well, I asked dh; and he agreed there's no risk in letting ds know.  I emailed ds and simply said, "------ ---------  was admitted to the hospital.  We visited her yesterday and were told they don't expect her to live."  That's about as brief a I could think of to keep it.  If he chooses not to respond, then nothing's changed, has it?  Whatever he chooses is totally up to him. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on February 25, 2011, 06:51:00 AM
Yes it is.  And now you have relieved yourself of that anxiety and can move on in support of your friend.   My prayers are going up for her.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 06:56:22 AM
Thank you.......all of you.......for the prayers and support. 

Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Update.  I just called the hospital.  They're not transferring my df to another hospital.  Instead, they've induced a coma and put her on a ventilator.  They feel her chances are better by doing this.  She's less agitated, the ventilator is helping her lungs, and she's getting more rest now.  Ladies, it looks like your prayers may have already kicked in, because things sound just a wee bit better today than they did yesterday.  We may just get that miracle yet.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on February 25, 2011, 07:39:35 AM
I hope so, Angie.  That's great news
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 07:53:16 AM
Thanks, Pam.  I have to admit my hopes are up.  It's my understanding that she can't be kept on a ventilator for any long length of time, so they will probably take her off the ventilator this coming Sunday to determine how she's doing.  From what I'm told, her blood gases (which were really, really bad) are pretty near normal now; and the bi-lateral pneumonia seems to be improved.  It was horrible to watch her fighting for breath, even with a full oxygen mask on her face.  There is still COPD and severe emphysema to contend with, however.  Her children are keeping in touch with me about any changes, because there's no point to visiting her while she's in an induced coma. I anxiously await Sunday with the hope that she's so improved that she won't need the ventilator any longer. I realize that's hoping for a lot, what with COPD and emphysema still present; but I'll continue to hope and pray.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 09:31:53 AM
I got a response from ds.  It said:

Hey Mom,

I'm sorry to learn this.
Is it related to her breathing?
I wish I could take back the time that I thought it was acceptable to smoke.

Please tell Dad hi.

Love
(his name)

He asked a question I feel it's only courteous to answer.  Do you agree?

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pen on February 25, 2011, 09:57:32 AM
Angie, IMHO it's a good sign and shows he's not completely withdrawn from you. However, take it very slow and carefully...think "skittish colt." Too much too soon could scare him off. Answer his question with as few words and emotion as possible.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 10:20:06 AM
You gave precisely the same advice my dh gave me, Pen.  I'm going to try to compose something.  Since he signed his email with "Love," should I do the same?  Or is that pushing it?  I'm so afraid of making a mistake. :(
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 10:24:16 AM
How does this sound for my response:

Yes, it is related to her breathing.  Unfortunately, she got pneumonia on top of the emphysema and COPD.  As a last-ditch effort to try to save her, the doctors have induced a coma and put her on a ventilator. 



Is that generic enough?  Do I sign it "Love, Mom?"
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 25, 2011, 10:25:08 AM
how do you normally sign things to him?  That's the way I would sign.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 10:28:33 AM
Before the estrangement, I signed everything "Love, Mom."  Does that apply now?  Should I follow suit, since he signed it "Love?" 
I really don't think I know what's right and what's wrong any more.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Rose799 on February 25, 2011, 10:38:08 AM
Quote from: Angie on February 25, 2011, 10:28:33 AM
Before the estrangement, I signed everything "Love, Mom."  Does that apply now?  Should I follow suit, since he signed it "Love?" 
I really don't think I know what's right and what's wrong any more.

My goodness Angie, what have we been reduced to?  Sign it to suit yourself.  If ds chooses to cut you off, surely he can find better reason than you signing off that you love him.  Be who you are...  That's my vote.   :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on February 25, 2011, 10:39:32 AM
If you've always signed "Love," and you do in fact love him...I think you have your answer.

I saw this as someone who doesn't sign their notes "Love" by the way, no matter how much I really do love the person.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 25, 2011, 10:45:02 AM
I always sign Love Mom... my best friend called me one day and told me that it was so sweet that I thought to sign an email I sent to her in that manner.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 10:50:56 AM
I'm quite demonstrative in showing my love, so signing it "Love" is definitey me.  I'll go with that.  I doubt there will be any more communication between ds and me once I respond to his email; however, if there should be, I'll let you kind ladies know.  Thank you once more.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 11:17:48 AM
I see people leaving this earth almost every day when I visit Val in our nursing home because the two critical care, private rooms are across the hall from his room. I have come to think of those rooms as cocoons from which a butterfly emerges and flies away into the sunshine. I know most of them (the butterflies) because we have lived here for 10 years and they are our friends and neighbors. Val doesn't notice...he is cozy in his cocoon.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 11:32:45 AM
Due to my being new I don't know who Val is, Luise.  But I love your analogy.  It has a beautiful meaning as well as being comforting.  What a wonderful perspective.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Scoop on February 25, 2011, 11:48:50 AM
Luise, that's one of the ideas that gave me a LOT of comfort when my Dad died.

"What the caterpillar perceives as the end, to the butterfly is just the beginning"

I believe there's *more* after this life and that we can't even begin to imagine it.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 12:07:08 PM
That's the one, Scoop. I see it so often and I believe it. (Please remind me of that when Val and Me, Too pass.)

Angie, Val is my 99 year-old husband. Kirk is our Webmaster and my son. "Me, Too" is our ancient Chihuahua. We've lived in a retirement center for the last 10 years. There are picture of all three here and there on WWU. I started WWU almost two years ago because the most common questions on my counseling Website, www.MomResponds.com, were about adult children and extended families. That site is six years old and going strong, as well.

You can read about my own MIL in Success Stories.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 12:10:40 PM
For Angie:

(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc491/luisevolta/Dad2.jpg)

(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc491/luisevolta/mom_and_Kirk_2.jpg)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 12:24:42 PM
OMG, Luise, what a handsome family!!!  Your dh is 99!  God bless him.........AND you!  Do thank your handsome son for giving us a place to pour out our hearts.  I love your dog; but that's no surprise, being the animal lover that I am.  Thank you for sharing these wonderful pictures!  What a treat this has been for me~~~~~Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 12:33:17 PM
I read your Success Story, and it warmed my heart.  How I hope one day to be able to post my own success story in re to my ds and me.  I still cling to the possibility.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 12:47:46 PM
I was wracking my brain trying to think of the actor your dh reminds me of, when it finally hit me.  He reminds me of Harold Gould, the fella who played Rose Nyland's boyfriend on The Golden Girls! 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 12:57:30 PM
Thank you! I realized what a job it would be for you to hunt those pictures down here. I guess, now that Laurie has taught me how to store and download pictures, (bless her heart), I should put them with my Bio. Never thought of that before! Duh...

Kirk is arriving here (Washington State) from Hawaii, where they live, on Wed. to celebrate my birthday with me and stay in his little place down the road for three weeks. It was 17 degrees this AM and we have 7 inches of snow, so I sure hope it warms up before he gets here! (They wear long-johns here when they stay here all summer!)

I will pass your comments on to him. I usually do that with most of the WWU kudos because he has gifted us with this site and I feel he needs to know that we appreciate him. He's really busy and gets big bucks for his Web-work, so we're really lucky. He's a former ordained youth pastor and NLP Counselor, so he's very supportive of what I do.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 01:06:07 PM
If you say so, Angie!  :) I have a lovely, wall-mounted, plasma TV with a sound bar and woofer (I have never heard it woof) but I never turn it on. I think I turned it off in 1954.  ;D ;D ;D (Well, that one didn't look quite like this one. I have it for when I get old and can't do anything but sit there and watch the world go by. Not happening yet.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 01:17:46 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 01:06:07 PM
If you say so, Angie!  :) I have a lovely, wall-mounted, plasma TV with a sound bar and woofer (I have never heard it woof) but I never turn it on. I think I turned it off in 1954.  ;D ;D ;D (Well, that one didn't look quite like this one. I have it for when I get old and can't do anything but sit there and watch the world go by. Not happening yet.

Harold Gould was quite debonaire!  Although I've never been to WA, I hear it's a beautiful state, despite having lots of rain.  That said, it's your son I envy.  I can't imagine being able to call HI your home.  How very fortunate to be able to  live in Paradise.
And I'm LOL at "I have never heard it woof."   ;D  .  Good for you not letting life pass you by!  I have to admit I waste more time than I should on the computer or watching TV when it's winter.  That's why I long for spring and its warmth.  I hope Mother Nature treats us well to make up for the horrid winter we've had.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 01:17:50 PM
I have just Googled Harold Gould and you're right, except Val is even better looking!

Here is a picture of him on his 98th birthday!

(http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc491/luisevolta/Dadvoltabirthday-1.jpg)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 01:22:09 PM
Yup!  Val is definitely a handsome man!  And you sound like you're still on your honeymoon!  That's terrific!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 01:39:35 PM
Well, he's been in our campus nursing home for almost a year...but we walk in the halls together every day, holding hands and we hug down at the end of the hall...(so we don't make his room mate sad, because he's lost his wife.) I take the dog over there with me, too.  :)

I have another marvelous picture of him taken that day with his birthday donut. (His request.) I need to have one of my sort-of daughters scan it for me, so I can get it into email and transferred over to Photobucket. Maybe I'll get another scanner. It took up too much room where I used to live so I gave it away. Probably time for a new one, there's room here.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 01:47:08 PM
I look forward to seeing another photo.   :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 01:50:48 PM
It'll be a while. She is on vacation in New York. She does foster care for disabled babies, (has two right now), and is on respite.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 25, 2011, 01:53:41 PM
Luise if you get a scanner.. get one that does it all.. prints, copies, scans.. little larger but I love mine.. or if you don't have many things to scan I believe (I could be wrong) but places like Kinko's will scan
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 01:55:39 PM
Well, in the meantime, Luise, I want to wish you a happy, healthy birthday, with many more to come.


 

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 02:09:03 PM
Great idea, Laurie. Got any make or brand in mind? Not for a while though. I have to save up for stuff like that. It will be fun to go online...check Amazon, etc. I've actually missed having a scanner the last five years.

Angie, thank you! My 84th birthday is March 9th. ("Just a Kid," Val says!)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cadagi101 on February 25, 2011, 02:18:19 PM
Quote from: Angie on February 25, 2011, 12:47:46 PM
I was wracking my brain trying to think of the actor your dh reminds me of, when it finally hit me.  He reminds me of Harold Gould, the fella who played Rose Nyland's boyfriend on The Golden Girls!

This is crazy, a coincidence just amazing.    (I think so anyway).    I haven't seen the Golden girls for 30 odd years.  I turned on the tele after I finished on WWU for the day and guess what was on??? Rose and Harold.  It was so funny they were in the kitchen and Rose was saying  "the why don't you say nice things to me" , Harold said he would sleep on it.  They were  also discussing problems they were haveing with there extended  family's etc.     Harold snuck into bed hoping she was asleep and she started at him again turned on the light and faced him and she had a face mask on.    Luise I thought of you with a face mask on and laughed.  Ok I digress, I just thought it was such a coincidence I had to share.

Just me better go and do something a little more constructive with my day. 


Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 02:20:05 PM
Quote from: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 02:09:03 PM

Angie, thank you! My 84th birthday is March 9th. ("Just a Kid," Val says!)

Definitely just a kid!   :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 02:22:26 PM
...in a face mask!! :o
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 02:25:46 PM


This is crazy, a coincidence just amazing.    (I think so anyway).    I haven't seen the Golden girls for 30 odd years.  I turned on the tele after I finished on WWU for the day and guess what was on??? Rose and Harold.  It was so funny they were in the kitchen and Rose was saying  "the why don't you say nice things to me" , Harold said he would sleep on it.  They were  also discussing problems they were haveing with there extended  family's etc.     Harold snuck into bed hoping she was asleep and she started at him again turned on the light and faced him and she had a face mask on.    Luise I thought of you with a face mask on and laughed.  Ok I digress, I just thought it was such a coincidence I had to share.

Just me better go and do something a little more constructive with my day.
[/quote]


That was a neat coincidence, Julia.  LOL   Because I dislike much of what's on TV these days (I'm not a reality show fan), I find myself watching many re-runs, including Golden Girls, Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens and Seinfeld.  I do love good movies, too; and the Biography channel, the Hallmark channel and National Geographic can be quite interesting. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cadagi101 on February 25, 2011, 02:42:23 PM
Quote from: Angie on February 25, 2011, 02:25:46 PM



That was a neat coincidence, Julia.  LOL   Because I dislike much of what's on TV these days (I'm not a reality show fan), I find myself watching many re-runs, including Golden Girls, Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens and Seinfeld.  I do love good movies, too; and the Biography channel, the Hallmark channel and National Geographic can be quite interesting.

Yes i knew they had started re-runs of the show but thought it was at night ... not 9.00 in the morning.    Must admit I'm pretty fussy with what i watch.     Interesting shows on abc..Australian Story,  four corners,  and Yes anot many will admit to watching it  and hate Charlie sheen for all the rubbish in his private life but I like 21/2 men.    And i am watching this series of Farmer Wants a wife only because one of the "farmers"  Keiran lived near us and i know his mum.    Imagine I knew him when he was a child  (I hope this doesn't sound warped but gosh he's hot!!!  I'm old enough to be his mother.....!!!)    Couger springs to mind god what next!!!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 03:01:19 PM
Quote from: Julia on February 25, 2011, 02:42:23 PM
Quote from: Angie on February 25, 2011, 02:25:46 PM



That was a neat coincidence, Julia.  LOL   Because I dislike much of what's on TV these days (I'm not a reality show fan), I find myself watching many re-runs, including Golden Girls, Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens and Seinfeld.  I do love good movies, too; and the Biography channel, the Hallmark channel and National Geographic can be quite interesting.

Yes i knew they had started re-runs of the show but thought it was at night ... not 9.00 in the morning.    Must admit I'm pretty fussy with what i watch.     Interesting shows on abc..Australian Story,  four corners,  and Yes anot many will admit to watching it  and hate Charlie sheen for all the rubbish in his private life but I like 21/2 men.    And i am watching this series of Farmer Wants a wife only because one of the "farmers"  Keiran lived near us and i know his mum.    Imagine I knew him when he was a child  (I hope this doesn't sound warped but gosh he's hot!!!  I'm old enough to be his mother.....!!!)    Couger springs to mind god what next!!!

Oh my goodness, that doesn't sound warped at all, Julia.  Is there supposed to be an age where a person stops appreciating what he/she finds attractive?  I don't think so.   ;)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cadagi101 on February 25, 2011, 03:06:29 PM
Quote from: Angie on February 25, 2011, 03:01:19 PM
Quote from: Julia on February 25, 2011, 02:42:23 PM
Quote from: Angie on February 25, 2011, 02:25:46 PM



That was a neat coincidence, Julia.  LOL   Because I dislike much of what's on TV these days (I'm not a reality show fan), I find myself watching many re-runs, including Golden Girls, Everybody Loves Raymond, King of Queens and Seinfeld.  I do love good movies, too; and the Biography channel, the Hallmark channel and National Geographic can be quite interesting.

Yes i knew they had started re-runs of the show but thought it was at night ... not 9.00 in the morning.    Must admit I'm pretty fussy with what i watch.     Interesting shows on abc..Australian Story,  four corners,  and Yes anot many will admit to watching it  and hate Charlie sheen for all the rubbish in his private life but I like 21/2 men.    And i am watching this series of Farmer Wants a wife only because one of the "farmers"  Keiran lived near us and i know his mum.    Imagine I knew him when he was a child  (I hope this doesn't sound warped but gosh he's hot!!!  I'm old enough to be his mother.....!!!)    Couger springs to mind god what next!!!

Oh my goodness, that doesn't sound warped at all, Julia.  Is there supposed to be an age where a person stops appreciating what he/she finds attractive?  I don't think so.   ;)

I hope not Angie,  in my mind just look, think but don't touch even when i'm 83.!!!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 03:12:46 PM
I definitely believe in looking.........not touching, since I'm a married woman.......but looking is fine; and, imho, it's harmless.   ;)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 25, 2011, 03:14:45 PM
ok, if age doesn't count against us.. I think Ashton Kutcher is one of the sexiest guys out there.. I thought a younger Mel was doable and Denzel  Washington.. oh but I just watched the movie Unstoppable and well Denzel got old.. what's up with that?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 03:30:29 PM
Quote from: Laurie on February 25, 2011, 03:14:45 PM
ok, if age doesn't count against us.. I think Ashton Kutcher is one of the sexiest guys out there.. I thought a younger Mel was doable and Denzel  Washington.. oh but I just watched the movie Unstoppable and well Denzel got old.. what's up with that?


ROTF, Laurie.  I noticed Denzel looked older last time I saw him, but I don't know why it surprised me, since I'm older too.  LOL
I think Antonio Banderas, Brad Pitt, Andy Garcia and still Denzel Washington are all hunks.  Maybe it was makeup that made Denzel look older for the part he played?  Ya think?   :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 25, 2011, 03:33:04 PM
Yes I think that must be it.. I often put on my older lady makeup just to fool the world.. everyone says.. you don't act your age.. so I know it's working
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 03:39:49 PM
Quote from: Laurie on February 25, 2011, 03:33:04 PM
Yes I think that must be it.. I often put on my older lady makeup just to fool the world.. everyone says.. you don't act your age.. so I know it's working

Bwaaaaaaahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!! You're a riot, Laurie!   ;D
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on February 25, 2011, 03:47:15 PM
Thanks all, for giving me a good day.  I was taken away from my "problems" for a while, and  I laughed........HARD.......and it felt so good.   :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 04:34:26 PM
When Val was still able to watch TV, (up to about 4 years ago), he would say , "My, hasn't she gotten old! " And I would chuckle and think, "Look in the mirror, you're 95!" But I didn't say it!  ;D ;D
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 25, 2011, 06:27:33 PM
And then there is Dick Clark :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 07:11:06 PM
And Gary Cooper!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 07:13:14 PM
Bob Mitchum...Jimmy Stuart. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.................sigh....................
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 25, 2011, 07:58:05 PM
I almost followed  you Luise Jimmy's last name was spelled Stewart.. and yes he was one of my favorites..I just looked him up on wikipedia and I did not know that he was a Brigadier General.. such an accomplished man he was.  Henry Fonda was another that I liked and let's not forget Ronald Reagan.. that is back when stars were really stars.  I will always love John Wayne.. and then some of the women.. I use to really like Doris Day movies
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on February 25, 2011, 08:11:46 PM
And that Bad Boy, Errol Flynn!  8) (That's where the saying "In like Flynn" came from.)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on February 28, 2011, 10:39:34 AM
Seriously, I would have drank James Dean's dirty bathwater......sigh.....
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 28, 2011, 01:09:36 PM
Quote from: Pooh on February 28, 2011, 10:39:34 AM
Seriously, I would have drank James Dean's dirty bathwater......sigh.....
you know I once read that he pees in the tub
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on February 28, 2011, 01:20:24 PM
Then I don't want to know what kind of stuff you read....
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 28, 2011, 01:26:59 PM
Hey I'm into that  important trivia.. never know when you might be asked to play on jeopardy
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: seasage on February 28, 2011, 01:27:58 PM
At the risk of showing my age, this was my teenage movie idol:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/Mario_Lanza_Pinkerton.jpg/300px-Mario_Lanza_Pinkerton.jpg)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 28, 2011, 03:18:31 PM
Well the uniform gives me tingles, but who is the guy?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: seasage on February 28, 2011, 03:32:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmJSWgWNCFQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Y8t6tUAPQ&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=MLGxdCwVVULXfNZLKuFr0OoZR0GtVmHn4u
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on February 28, 2011, 03:37:33 PM
Seasage,

What did you post? I'm on a public computer. I have to make sure it won't offend anyone.  :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: seasage on February 28, 2011, 03:50:22 PM
The first youtube clip is ~2 minutes from the movie The Great Caruso by MGM.
I don't know the name of the movie in the second youtube video, but I love the range of his voice in that clip.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on February 28, 2011, 03:50:35 PM
Robert Redford used to be a hottie. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on February 28, 2011, 05:10:25 PM
The photo is of Mario Lanza, who played Enrico Caruso in "The Great Caruso", in the 1950's.  I am really showing my age here.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: seasage on February 28, 2011, 05:36:34 PM
My uncle sang the songs of Sigmund romberg all the time -- desert song, student prince
  So when I started going to the movies, as a teenager, I fell in love with mario lanza
  I also loved elvis.  Have you ever heard elvis sing classical italian or spanish songs?  He was truly versatile.  Elvis was my swcomd love.  #3 movie star for me was fred Astaire.

Sorry for the misspellings above.  I would edit, but not possible anymore
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on February 28, 2011, 05:51:10 PM
Hey.. as long as you spelled Elvis right.. you're good in my book
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Faithlooksup on February 28, 2011, 06:06:29 PM
Hi Angie,  Just as all have said over and over again---Please do cut the cord...Let go of him--NO phone calls, no cards, NO nothing.....He knows the door is open, he knows you love him....so let him come to you.  Sometimes they need to grow up by themselves no matter how old they are,  you were a good Mom and he knows that so just keep that in your heart......Now its time to take care of you and DH and enjoy Life....LEARN to enjoy life.

Read---When Parents Hurt  its an excellent book....he also has a web seminar in which you can here his seminars as well....www.joshuacoleman.com  you will receive a lot of great advise and insight as well.

Wishing you all the best and remember~~You are now #1.....Hugs, Faith
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on February 28, 2011, 06:45:31 PM
Quote from: seasage on February 28, 2011, 03:32:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmJSWgWNCFQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Y8t6tUAPQ&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=MLGxdCwVVULXfNZLKuFr0OoZR0GtVmHn4u

Seasage,

I'm touched. This was my father's mother's favorite version of this song. He asked me to think of her if I ever happened to hear it. I'm crying just thinking about it. Very beautiful, thank you. It's been almost 42 years since she died, and while I never met her, I felt like I've always had a connection to her through this song.

I feel very foolish that I didn't catch on quicker to who you were talking about!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Rose799 on February 28, 2011, 08:23:59 PM
Quote from: Faithlooksup on February 28, 2011, 06:06:29 PM
Just as all have said over and over again---Please do cut the cord...Let go of him--NO phone calls, no cards, NO nothing.....He knows the door is open, he knows you love him....so let him come to you.  Sometimes they need to grow up by themselves no matter how old they are,  you were a good Mom and he knows that so just keep that in your heart......Now its time to take care of you and DH and enjoy Life....LEARN to enjoy life.

I've read your advice many times, Faith.  I am so happy to hear your news!!   Keep posting with updates, k?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 01, 2011, 06:24:39 AM
Quote from: holliberri on February 28, 2011, 06:45:31 PM
Quote from: seasage on February 28, 2011, 03:32:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmJSWgWNCFQ&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Y8t6tUAPQ&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=MLGxdCwVVULXfNZLKuFr0OoZR0GtVmHn4u

Seasage,

I'm touched. This was my father's mother's favorite version of this song. He asked me to think of her if I ever happened to hear it. I'm crying just thinking about it. Very beautiful, thank you. It's been almost 42 years since she died, and while I never met her, I felt like I've always had a connection to her through this song.

I feel very foolish that I didn't catch on quicker to who you were talking about!

There is nothing for you to feel foolish over Holli.  When I don't hear something for a long time, I tend to forget about it until it comes up again and all these feelings rush back in.  That's a good thing.  My GM died when I was 16 and was the most influential person in my childhood.  I still miss her.  Her favorite song was "The Little Drummer Boy", and every Christmas, the first couple of times I hear it on the radio, I will start bawling.  I'm sure the other drivers around me are pretty confused.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Tara on March 01, 2011, 08:23:53 AM
Pam,

Oh yes, I used  to think Robert Redford was definitely a hottie
I'm always a little bit surprised to see how old he is now   lol.
but oh by the way so am I!  Anyway, he was a looker and
has done good things in his life besides being cute and make movies.
I respect him.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pen on March 01, 2011, 08:50:51 AM
RR's face has spent a lot of time outside. I have the same problem as a gardener/hiker/skier/beachgoer...had fun, though!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 01, 2011, 10:52:52 AM
Quote from: Pen on March 01, 2011, 08:50:51 AM
RR's face has spent a lot of time outside. I have the same problem as a gardener/hiker/skier/beachgoer...had fun, though!

I just remind people that my great grandmother was Cherokee Indian.. that explains away the wrinkled every time :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on March 01, 2011, 12:26:46 PM
How wonderful!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 01, 2011, 05:42:37 PM
Quote from: Faithlooksup on February 28, 2011, 06:06:29 PM
Hi Angie,  Just as all have said over and over again---Please do cut the cord...Let go of him--NO phone calls, no cards, NO nothing.....He knows the door is open, he knows you love him....so let him come to you.  Sometimes they need to grow up by themselves no matter how old they are,  you were a good Mom and he knows that so just keep that in your heart......Now its time to take care of you and DH and enjoy Life....LEARN to enjoy life.

Read---When Parents Hurt  its an excellent book....he also has a web seminar in which you can here his seminars as well....www.joshuacoleman.com  you will receive a lot of great advise and insight as well.

Wishing you all the best and remember~~You are now #1.....Hugs, Faith


Hi, Faith.  My son (I'm becoming more and more reluctant to refer to him as "dear" son; therefore, I'll just call him son) emailed me with one sentence today to ask how my dear friend is doing.  I responded briefly that she had been taken off the ventilator but wasn't doing well.  That was it.

I have a birthday this month, dh and I have a 40th anniversary coming up at the end of March; and son has a birthday this month.  I've learned that son has already made his own "fun" plans on the day of our 40th anniversary.  I don't know if he'll acknowledge our anniversary and/or my birthday with flowers or not.  Whatever he does or doesn't do, it won't make up for his lack of presence or his satisfaction over not being with us for these special occasions.For my dh's birthday, he sent a GC by email, which my dh sent back to son.  For Christmas, son sent flowers, which aren't easy to send back; so I sent a short note to him, as stated in one of my earlier posts.   I'm thinking of not doing anything for son's birthday and not acknowledging any gifts he might send us.  Nothing......not even an email thank-you note.  I'm feeling angry right now, and I'm not even feeling guilty for feeling angry.  I don't even care if it's wrong for me to be feeling the anger I feel.  All I'm thinking is how much I wish I could go back and do things differently.  I'd give him less of myself and certainly less of the monetary gifts he and his wife got from us.  I'm even sorry I let him know about my dear friend, and I'm NOT blaming anyone's advice; because it's what "I" felt was the right thing to do.  Right now I feel like I never want to do right by him again.........just as HE'S content not doing right by US. >:(

My dear friend is off the ventilator but now sepsis is through her frail little body.  My thoughts and prayers are with her.   :'(

Warm hugs, Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on March 01, 2011, 07:11:28 PM
I'm with you on both fronts, A. We all are, I'm sure. Anger is healthy when it goes though us. If it get stuck, it doesn't hurt the other person, it hurts us. Do what works...and stay close to your WWU family as you walk this difficult walk. Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Keys Girl on March 01, 2011, 07:27:19 PM
Angie, my circumstances are similar.

I won't negotiate with terrorists.  I've been through the tears, shock, anguish for about a year and a half of trying to please my son and his future bride which resulted in receiving an email from my son saying they no longer wanted to keep in touch.

It's brutal, but being held hostage in my opinion is worse than letting them go.  I would rather never ever see my son or any future grandchildren (which I was looking forward to) than be kept under the thumb of two petulant brats who want to rule my roost and barely have their own nest.

I'm not getting any younger, and my health has improved a lot since I forgot about them both.  Maybe time will heal the wounds, maybe it won't whatever happens I won't let them try to control my life.  If people can't control you they sometimes cut you off.....in the expectations that you'll come running back with a handful of apologies and then they get to control you even further.

I now remember that my responsibility is to myself first and everyone else on the planet after that, that is those who treat me well and who I reciprocate in kind.

Hang in there, anger comes from hurt........but happiness comes from freedom (IMHO).



Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on March 01, 2011, 07:31:27 PM
Hi Angie,

You have a lot going on right now, first of all with your dear friend being so sick.  It is good that you are able to be with her at this time. 
You have a right to feel angry but you cannot undo the past.  You love your son and were the best mother you could be.  If he does not realize that, it is his loss.  I would not think about whether or not he acknowledges your birthday right now (I am one to talk I am already thinking about mine next month), I would send him a card, no gift, just to let you know you are thinking about him, and you and your husband go out and have a super celebration for your anniversary.
Best wishes.....Jill
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 01, 2011, 07:58:48 PM
But I don't want to send him even so much as a card.  Why should I do that?  Because it's the right thing to do?  Does HE worry about the right thing to do?  I'm in a lot of pain right now, and all I want to do is hurt him right back, so he knows how it feels.  The problem is he WON'T know how it feels because he's incapable of caring.  "I" want to become incapable of caring, too!  I want to forget he exists, just as he doesn't think about OUR existence.  Why should the VICTIM, the injured party, worry about constantly focusing on doing the right thing?  I don't want to worry about "leaving the door open" for him.  If he doesn't feel I'M worth it, why should I feel HE'S worth it?  I've been waiting almost 10 months for him to realize what he pushed out of his life, but he obviously feels no loss at all.  All I want at this point is not to feel anything at all. 

Time to go to bed.  Hopefully, tomorrow will be a better day.

Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 01, 2011, 08:04:37 PM
Tomorrow won't be a better day.  I just got a call.  My friend passed.  My head feels like it's gonna explode.  I can't type any  more.  It's too hard to see through the tears.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Nana on March 01, 2011, 08:16:36 PM
Oh Angie.    Sorry for your loss.  You have been very stressed with your friend's illness and the  hurt of son ignoring you.   Give yourself time to mourn your friend's passing.  Then have a fresh start with no expectations whatsoever of what son does or doesnt do.   Celebrate with those who love you.   Sometimes what hurts us most is that we are suffering and we think our son/daughter is having a good time without us.  We dont know that for sure.    There is always another day to look forward....never know what surprise this day could bring.    Wishing you the best always. 

Love
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on March 01, 2011, 08:30:42 PM
Reach out for the Angel. She's there for you. Sending love...

(And please remind me of that when Val passes and I forget that he has started his next great adventure.)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on March 01, 2011, 09:01:02 PM
Hi Angie,
I'm so sorry to hear about your friend.  At least she is not suffering any more.
You have to do what feels right with your son, but I hope your anger will pass soon, it is hurting you, not him.  I agree with Nana's post, you need to take time to mourn.  I felt the same about my odd, I wanted her to feel the hurt that I was feeling, but  I am gradually getting past that, with not much contact at all, I don't feel angry.
If you do not want to acknowledge your son's birthday, then don't.  I don't think you really want to be incapable of caring, or forget that he exists.  Try to concentrate on your husband and yourself, you are mourning two losses here, and I think it will take a while to heal.
Best wishes....Jill
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Tara on March 01, 2011, 09:23:47 PM
Angie,

My condolences re:  the passing of your friend. 

As with the other Wise Women here I hope that you can take some down time and
take time to grieve, to spend quality time with your spouse and take care of yourself.

Anger and depression are the 2 of the stages of grief and perfectly expectable. 

I would encourage you to take one day at a time.  Your feelings will fluctuate alot
in the next few days and weeks so allow for that. 

Wishing you well Angie

Tara
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pen on March 01, 2011, 09:26:04 PM
Angie, so sorry for your loss. Please take care.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on March 02, 2011, 05:01:49 AM
Angie, I'm so sorry. I will be thinking of you. Please take care of yourself.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 02, 2011, 05:09:12 AM
So sorry Angie and my thoughts and prayers are with you during this time.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Keys Girl on March 02, 2011, 07:38:34 AM
Angie, I'm so sorry to hear about your friend.

If you don't feel like sending a card to your son, don't.  When in doubt, the advice that I was given was to do nothing.

Take care of yourself and know that you did everything that you could for your friend while she was here.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: lancaster lady on March 02, 2011, 09:37:45 AM
angie:
You never lose the ones you love , they remain in your heart forever ...x
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: courtney on March 04, 2011, 07:56:43 AM

    Angie, I am so sorry you lost your friend. I like what Luise said about the birth of a beautiful butterfly when someone dies, if that's true, then she will always be there with you. You have to grieve, it's so necessary, but you can smile when you feel her presence around you as she isn't suffering anymore. Stay in touch here with us, Angie. You are in all our hearts now. -Courtney
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 14, 2011, 05:38:15 PM
Well, my dear friend was cremated; and I miss her more than words can say.  I've been quite ill with a flu/pneumonia combination and am just starting to feel a little bit human again. 

I had a birthday last Friday but was too ill to keep the plans we made, so we'll do something with friends as soon as I feel up to it.

For my birthday, son sent an email saying,
"Happy Birthday Mom!  I hope Dad takes you someplace nice for dinner.  Love, ****"

Exactly three minutes later, another email arrived from dil saying,
"Hi Mom!  Wishing you a happy birthday!  Love, ****"

I guess they must have planned what time they would send their acknowledgements, since they were only three minutes apart..

Then flowers were delivered mid-afternoon, with the attached card saying, "Happy Birthday Mom.  Love, **** and ****"

No visit and no phone call.  What is this game they're playing?  If I'm supposed to "catch on," I'm failing to do so. 

Son has a birthday this coming Wed.  I was planning not to acknowledge it at all.  Why?  Because I don't know what the "proper" thing is to do any more.  I ignored their last anniversary, as well as Christmas; and still they send presents.  Why?  What do presents mean when they've chosen to be absent from my life?  Wouldn't my acknowledging his birthday make him think I'm OK with what he's doing?  I HATE this!  I'm NOT OK with what he's doing.  He's turning me into someone I don't even know any more, because I'm behaving in a way that's totally out of character for me.  Yet, if I act "normal," I run the risk of his thinking I'm fine with things just as they are, or he may even think I'm caving, weakening.  However, it doesn't feel good not to acknowledge his birthday either.  Knowing I'm purposely being a butch by keeping quiet and keeping my distance is not something I enjoy.  So, either way I run the risk of losing.  How am I supposed to read his mind?  How am I supposed to GUESS which actions may work for me and which won't work for me.

Some say to ignore him altogether, some say not to.  I've ignored him for a long time now, and nothing has changed.  Despite seeing a difference in me, he still says nothing about being remorseful for his actions.  He seems perfectly content to have a "give-a-present-for-a-special-day" connection only. I don't have a clue as to how to interpret the presents. If I give in and acknowledge his birthday, I'll be condoning the "give-a-present-for-a-special-day" connection, even though there's nothing else between us.  I don't want to follow his lead and I don't want to ignore him.  I'm stuck!

This is harder than losing a child to death imo, because he's CHOOSING to be absent from my life.

BTW, he doesn't even know my friend passed away because he's never bothered to ask how she's doing.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 14, 2011, 05:48:56 PM
Adding:  I acknowledged the flowers with an email that simply said:  "Flowers were delivered today.  They remind me that spring is right around the corner."

That was it.  That's all I said.  It was disgustingly generic at best.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 14, 2011, 05:58:23 PM
Unfortunately, we can only speculate why they are acting the way that they are, but my guess would be that they are doing it for their own conscience so that they can say to themselves, "Well we did send her birthday flowers...we aren't evil."  Not saying it's justified...just saying I think they're justifying it for themselves because they don't want to seem callous.  I don't think DS feels like he did anything that wasn't warranted because he probably had been holding back for a long time when he blew up at you and it finally came out. He probably feels like he told you how he felt and that he shouldn't feel bad for that.  Right or wrong, if he feels he was justified in his actions, he's probably trying to build a bridge to have a subdued relationship with you guys.  I wish I knew the right answer for what to do.  I honestly think you should do what you feel is right.  If you don't accept their terms of having a less personal relationship, then I don't think you should send anything or acknowledge his birthday.  If you want to try to build that bridge between you and your DS, despite your differences in thought and takes of the situation, I think you should send a card and tell him happy birthday, and that you hope he has a great day.  Don't ask him to call, don't ask him to visit, don't ask him to contact you.  Just reach out to say happy birthday just for the sake of wishing it with no strings.  It's really completely up to you and what you are comfortable with doing.  JMO of course.

To add from your update: did you say 'Thank you," for the flowers, or just that they were delivered?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 14, 2011, 06:09:26 PM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 14, 2011, 05:58:23 PM
Unfortunately, we can only speculate why they are acting the way that they are, but my guess would be that they are doing it for their own conscience so that they can say to themselves, "Well we did send her birthday flowers...we aren't evil."  Not saying it's justified...just saying I think they're justifying it for themselves because they don't want to seem callous.  I don't think DS feels like he did anything that wasn't warranted because he probably had been holding back for a long time when he blew up at you and it finally came out. He probably feels like he told you how he felt and that he shouldn't feel bad for that.  Right or wrong, if he feels he was justified in his actions, he's probably trying to build a bridge to have a subdued relationship with you guys.  I wish I knew the right answer for what to do.  I honestly think you should do what you feel is right.  If you don't accept their terms of having a less personal relationship, then I don't think you should send anything or acknowledge his birthday.  If you want to try to build that bridge between you and your DS, despite your differences in thought and takes of the situation, I think you should send a card and tell him happy birthday, and that you hope he has a great day.  Don't ask him to call, don't ask him to visit, don't ask him to contact you.  Just reach out to say happy birthday just for the sake of wishing it with no strings.  It's really completely up to you and what you are comfortable with doing.  JMO of course.

To add from your update: did you say 'Thank you," for the flowers, or just that they were delivered?

I didn't use the words "thank you."  However, that's not unusual for me.  See, I had some great English teachers in school who taught us that which was beyond the call.  One of them told us that the best thank-you notes never actually use the words "thank you."  You just say wonderful things about the gift that implies "thank you."  BUT, ordinarily, I would have gone on and on about how wonderful the flowers were.  I kept the  email brief purposely because I don't want to come across with the same warmth I ordinarily would.  It's almost like I feel I have to keep MY distance in order to come across to him the same way he comes across to me.  I don't WANT to appear all warm and fuzzy about the flowers because he'll feel I'm just SO ELATED with the crumbs he's tossed my way in place of his company.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Nana on March 14, 2011, 06:35:43 PM
Hi Angie:
I agree with Overwhelmed.  How bad can it get for you saying Happy Birthday (you will be playing the same game) and still you will be polite.  It will not hurt. 

I know how you feel...not knowing what is the right thing to do.  When I want to do what is right...only what is right....I ask God to help me make the best choice.  Sometimes the answer is in our heart.   He has decided to keep you out of his life...for the moment....be patient...dont ever lose hope.  As long as he is contacting you...means there is something in the air (love I hope).    Hold on.

Love you
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on March 14, 2011, 06:49:06 PM
Hi Angie,
Belated Happy Birthday to you.  Sorry to hear you have been sick. I know you are still missing your friend and it will be awhile but eventually the pain will lessen.
I think you have to go with your gut feeling about your son.  It is nice that he did remember your birthday and sent you flowers, but I know you are wanting more.  You want to see him and talk to him on a regular basis.  Angie, right now you cannot have that kind of a relationship, it is heartbreaking I know, but there is not much else you can do.  It may be that he  is easing his guilty feelings by remembering your birthday, or it may be that that is all the contact he wants, and he does not feel he has to do any more.  You cannot change his way of thinking.  If it was me, I would remember him on his birthday, but it is up to you.  If he is sending gifts cards etc. on special occasions, and you are ignoring these occasions, then eventually he may stop all contact.
I have always spent Mother's Day with my dds, but last year my odd did not invite me as she had in the past, and sent me a card. She also called to wish me Happy Mother's Day.  I was extremely hurt that we would not spend the day together, and I told her.  She thought I was being unreasonable and it was another reason she did not speak to me for months.  I did see my ydd but did not get a card, did not do anything special, and I had to leave early so she could spend her mother's day with her family.
This year, I will not expect anything at all, and then I wont be disappointed. I know the hurt you are feeling, but tomorrow will probably be better.  Try to plan something with your husband. Start thinking about yourself.......Jill 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 14, 2011, 06:59:12 PM
Quote from: Nana on March 14, 2011, 06:35:43 PM
Hi Angie:
I agree with Overwhelmed.  How bad can it get for you saying Happy Birthday (you will be playing the same game) and still you will be polite.  It will not hurt. 

I know how you feel...not knowing what is the right thing to do.  When I want to do what is right...only what is right....I ask God to help me make the best choice.  Sometimes the answer is in our heart.   He has decided to keep you out of his life...for the moment....be patient...dont ever lose hope.  As long as he is contacting you...means there is something in the air (love I hope).    Hold on.

Love you


Nana, God should be so tired of hearing from me that I'd think He would have supplied me with an answer by now.  I would be so happy to think there might be love in the air, but love doesn't allow separations like this without causing unbearable pain.  Son can't be suffering unbearable pain, or he would have called or stopped by.  I think I'm gonna settle for sending him an email that simply says Happy Birthday.  Nothing more.  Thx, Nana.   :-*
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 14, 2011, 07:07:18 PM
Quote from: jill on March 14, 2011, 06:49:06 PM
Hi Angie,
Belated Happy Birthday to you.  Sorry to hear you have been sick. I know you are still missing your friend and it will be awhile but eventually the pain will lessen.
I think you have to go with your gut feeling about your son.  It is nice that he did remember your birthday and sent you flowers, but I know you are wanting more.  You want to see him and talk to him on a regular basis.  Angie, right now you cannot have that kind of a relationship, it is heartbreaking I know, but there is not much else you can do.  It may be that he  is easing his guilty feelings by remembering your birthday, or it may be that that is all the contact he wants, and he does not feel he has to do any more.  You cannot change his way of thinking.  If it was me, I would remember him on his birthday, but it is up to you.  If he is sending gifts cards etc. on special occasions, and you are ignoring these occasions, then eventually he may stop all contact.
I have always spent Mother's Day with my dds, but last year my odd did not invite me as she had in the past, and sent me a card. She also called to wish me Happy Mother's Day.  I was extremely hurt that we would not spend the day together, and I told her.  She thought I was being unreasonable and it was another reason she did not speak to me for months.  I did see my ydd but did not get a card, did not do anything special, and I had to leave early so she could spend her mother's day with her family.
This year, I will not expect anything at all, and then I wont be disappointed. I know the hurt you are feeling, but tomorrow will probably be better.  Try to plan something with your husband. Start thinking about yourself.......Jill

Thank you for the birthday wishes, Jill.  I believe I'll be taking your advice and will send him an email with birthday wishes.  Nothing more.  I'm sorry you were treated so badly.  Funny, I always thought things would be better if I had a daughter instead of a son; but then I read the stories of those who have daughters:  and I learn it doesn't matter whether we have sons or daughters.  Both can be equally painful.  These special occasion days just make things that much worse.  I've reached the point where I dread them.
Wishing  you well, Jill................Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Scoop on March 15, 2011, 05:27:53 AM
Angie - I'm sorry for the loss of your friend.

It looks like you and your son are re-negotiating your relationship.  He's telling you what he's willing to give, right now it's e-mails & flowers, whether it gets better or worse depends on your next move.  If you do nothing for his birthday, then you are negotiating for "less", if you e-mail and ask if DS and DIL will come over for a birthday supper near his birthday, then you're negotiating for "more".

If you look at it as a 'negotiation', you'll see that he's told you that *this* is too much, but *this* is 'enough'.  Ideally, you would compromise in the middle, so you won't see him or hear from him as much as you want, and he will make a bit more of an effort.  I can actually see that as something a man would respond to, a calm negotiation, with compromise on both sides.

As for the e-mails for your birthday, well, to this younger generation, this is a completely acceptable, if not favourable, form of communication.  It was (likely) not intended as a slight.  As for the timing, maybe DS said "Oh, I just sent a birthday e-mail to my Mom." and DIL said "Did you sign it from you, or you and me?"  And then when she found out he didn't say it was from her too, she sent you one herself.  (Which I think is actually very nice.  In that situation, I would have been furious with my DH, not to have included me.  Do you know how many times I've signed his name to cards?)

What I'm saying is that, when someone does something that makes you say "Huh?", it's almost always about them, not about you.  And you can drive yourself crazy trying to figure it out.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 05:37:58 AM
Sorry to hear you have been sick and glad you are on the mend.

I agree with Scoop on this is how this generation communicates.  It's emails, FB posts and texts instead of phone calls and visits.  I also think there are many people that show their affection by sending "things".  They don't realize that we would rather have them, than a thing.  I think that is a maturity thing that you start understanding more as you get older.  I used to send my Mom flowers for occasions, thinking that would make her feel special.  It took me longer to realize she would prefer I BRING her flowers, so she could see everyone. 

I do think he is reaching out, in his own way.  He may not see he has done anything wrong and this is his way of letting you know he is thinking about you.  Or he could realize that he was wrong, and this is his way of trying to make up.  Who knows?  But I agree with the other ladies.  No matter what his reasoning is, it isn't about him, it's about you.  What do you want?  Do you want to hold out waiting for him to apologize and chance losing the contact completely?  Or do you decided that you are not going to get the type of apology you want, but you want to mend the relationship?

Only you can decide what you want and what will make you feel good.  But if you choose the latter, you have to find a way to make yourself realize, he may never apologize in the way you need, and let it go.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 15, 2011, 07:12:02 AM
Angie, I agree with Scoop and I hope you take her post to heart.  Try to make sure you aren't trying to "get him back" for "making you feel" the way you do.  It sounds like you are adamant on saying "Happy birthday." and nothing more, just to prove a point- just to sound cold and distant.  We have to focus on finding a happy medium with our family and not trying to make them feel how we feel- especially since I think it's fairly obvious that your son is trying here.  He's trying to find a happy medium for you guys- and just because it isn't the level of communication that YOU want, doesn't mean it's wrong.  It has to work for both of you now.  And I would think that some communication is better than none.  Instead of focusing on what he's NOT doing (visiting more, delivering flowers in person, calling you), don't you think it would be more productive to focus on what he IS doing?  You will get into a tailspin fast if you get too wrapped up in what he's not doing that is not meeting your standards.  Don't lose sight of the fact that he IS trying.  Scoop said it perfectly when she said he is basically telling you THAT was too much, I am more comfortable with THIS- so let's try THIS and we'll go from there.  You know, it's not wrong when you think about it.  A relationship has to be mutually beneficial to be a real relationship.  He's trying to find his comfort level, I'd warmly encourage it without being overly needy.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 15, 2011, 07:28:37 AM
Thank you, ladies.  As much as I wish the relationshp would get better, I just can't invite them over.  It would make me feel like I'm begging for them to come back.  I've already taken my kick in the gut when asking son to come see us more often.  I can't take another kick in the gut..........and I can't allow myself to come across as begging.  As for sending emails three minutes apart, my son usually tells his wife what to  do; and she follows through.  I'm sure she didn't just say he forgot to add her name.  Those emails were sent from their places of employment, and they don't work at the same place.  They were sent three minutes apart because that's the way it was planned.  I will send him a happy birthday wish tomorrow, but that will be it.  Besides, I'm sure son is totally relieved to know that he can spend his birthday being toasted with beers by his buddies than being bored to death at a dinner in his parents' home.  He's more than insinuated that in the past.  We are passe' in his eyes.......not "young" fun. My dh reminded me last night of what son's visits used to be like on those rare occasions that he was here..........pacing the floor, talking to his friends on his cell phone, emailing his friends on our computer.........anything but keeping us company, even though he was in our home.  My dh asked if I really want that kind of visit again.  The answer is no.  My dh was right.  Although I long to have the son I gave birth to back in my life, I'd like him back in a respectful, caring way; and son's not about to give us that.  He's having too much fun being rid of parents to want any more than a gift-giving relationship.  He's totally free, and that's just the way he wants it........no parents, no children and a wife who goes along with every single thing he wants.  I'm sure he wouldn't change that for the world.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 15, 2011, 07:33:41 AM
Well Angie, it sounds like you have come to a conclusion about it.  For future though, I think that extending an invitation specific to a day and time (or even weekend) will be received much differently than asking "can you come see me more often??"  I think the tone of the two are much different and a specific invitation is much more likely to come off better than his view of you "whining and badgering him" when he feel like he's doing his "duty" by visiting you.  But if you already have your mind made up you aren't inviting him over again, that's your decision and it won't matter.  I thought I'd bring that up in the event you decided you DO want to work toward a compromise that works for both of you.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 15, 2011, 07:40:24 AM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 15, 2011, 07:12:02 AM
Don't lose sight of the fact that he IS trying.  Scoop said it perfectly when she said he is basically telling you THAT was too much, I am more comfortable with THIS- so let's try THIS and we'll go from there.  You know, it's not wrong when you think about it.  A relationship has to be mutually beneficial to be a real relationship.  He's trying to find his comfort level, I'd warmly encourage it without being overly needy.



If he's "trying," it's trying to make himself feel better, not me.  What was too much?  That I would have liked to see him more than on Christmas or a birthday or Mother's Day?  He lives 15 minutes away and spends all his non-working hours with his friends but can't make time to see his parents?  And then, when his parents ask when they can visit HIM, he says, "I don't know?"  We NEVER went to his house w/o an invitation.......and we were lucky to be extended an invitation once a year, during which time they thought nothing of leaving us alone in their living room while they worked on sports equipment in the garage.  What is that?  Some kind of obligation he felt he was fulfilling while still not giving up what he really wanted to do by spending our visiting time in the garage?  He was not raised that way, and I guarantee he wouldn't behave so rudely to any of his friends.  He never even knew how hurt we were, because we never brought it up.  We just pretended everything was all right and eventually left.   
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 15, 2011, 07:50:34 AM
I understand what you're saying, but I think if you let go of the expectations you have of him and appreciate the fact that he does communicate with you at all, you guys could be on your way to having a relationship get back on track.  You call it "crumbs" because it's not what you want.  I think a lot of parents on here would appreciate even the "crumbs" because they view it as an effort.  And that IS something.

I don't think he should be obligated to any certain amount of visits because of the fact that he lives 15 minutes away.  As hard as it is to hear, that doesn't change the fact that he is a grown man with a life of his own and other things he wants to do.  It could be worse- he could live on the other side of the country and imagine how much you'd see him then!  We had expectations set for us, too, because we lived 30 minutes away.  The problem was that those expectations were not something we were willing to give, and it ended in one huge mess.

He is telling you that when he makes the effort to go visit you, asking him about more visits is too much.  Making a general "can we see you more?" is too much.  "When can we see you?  When can we come over?"  is too much.  If we're being honest here, if I was in his position the last time you guys had your situation, I'd feel backed against the wall, too.  Would I react exactly as he did?  Probably not.  But I'd feel annoyed and pressured and unappreciated for what I was doing, and it would make me less likely to want to extend the effort again.   Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.  Are you asking him about specific dates, or are you just saying, "can we see you soon?"

But again, I just feel like when we get so wrapped up in our pre-conceived expectations we have set for our loved ones, bad things happen and communication goes awry.  He has a life and he is entitled to live it.  He may not have been visiting as much as you wanted, but he was visiting an amount he was comfortable with.  So- you still get to see him, and he doesn't have to feel like you're pressuring him to give you more than he is willing to give.  That is a mutual relationship. 

Now, the phone thing and being preoccupied...is another story.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 07:53:24 AM
Then I also think you have made your mind up Angie.  You have to forgive me for how this is going to sound, because I can't think of a nice way to say this.  You are wanting him back, but only on your terms.  You are still looking for justice in how he treated you.  I don't think anyone here will disagree that he treated you and DH badly and disrespectfully.  He did.  He did things that no parent deserves and it was very hurtful of him.  And yes, he should apologize.  But right now, he is not going to.  He either doesn't see it that way, or is ashamed to have to admit it and sending you emails and flowers in an attempt to make it better.  Better for him?  Better for you?  Only he knows.

You are saying that you will not accept what is going on with him.  Understandable and only you and DH can decide if that's what you want.  And correct me if I read your last couple of posts wrong, but it sounds like that is the decision you have made.  That you do not want him in your life right now as he is?  Then I don't think you should send him an email wishing him Happy Birthday.  That is going to send mixed messages to him and give him hope that you have forgiven him.

I am not contacting my DS.  I made that same decision over 3 months ago.  No contact, period.  No emails, no texts, no calls, no visits, no nothing.  But I did it for myself....not for him.  I did it so I could move on and heal, and be happy.  I did not do it to "show him".  So if you are going to do this, you have to do it for yourself Angie.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pen on March 15, 2011, 08:15:13 AM
Angie, happy belated birthday. Sorry it took me so long to send my good wishes.

I'm sorry you're in this situation. I hope the right path for you shows itself soon and that you find peace in your decision.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Scoop on March 15, 2011, 08:17:37 AM
Another thing Angie, have you heard of the Languages of Love?  The book talks about how people show love differently, some like to give gifts, some like to spend time, ect (there are 4, I don't know them all).  What if his way of showing love is to give gifts, but your way is to spend time?  No one is wrong here.  He's showing love in the way he thinks is best.  I think the book is more aimed at couples and assumes that both parties want to improve their relationship.  But it might help you to see where he's coming from.

Okay, one more thing, my Mom and I were talking awhile back and she mentioned "seasons" in your life.  I really like the idea that we all go through seasons in our lives.  So your son is in the season where he appreciates his friends more.  If he's young, then that's pretty natural.

Jeez-luise!  I can't stop this morning.  About the timed e-mails, do you think they actually made plans to e-mail you at 10:27 & 10:30 respectively?  That's not reasonable.  No one would do that.  It's possible that they were on the phone with each other (or e-mailed each other) about your birthday and got the same idea at around the same time.

And I still think it's an amazingly good sign that your DIL e-mailed you to wish you a Happy Birthday, and she calls you Mom.  Let me tell you, I don't e-mail my MIL on her birthday, and I certainly would never, ever call her Mom.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 08:26:50 AM
I love the "seasons" thing Scoop.  My Mother says the same thing.  That our entire life is about seasons.  We are constantly changing, and some seasons are harder than others.  And she says what you said.  She could be frolicking in the Summer, and I may still be stuck in Winter.  I love the season analogy.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Scoop on March 15, 2011, 09:09:53 AM
Pooh - it *is* a good way to think of things, because you know that seasons end, so you know you can endure a hard season, or you should relish a good one.

And in the grand scheme of things, most seasons in our lives are short.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 15, 2011, 09:47:08 AM
Oh so you aren't saying that children are "spring" and I've hit  autumn... at 53, I feel like autumn down to the changing colors and everything.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 10:00:13 AM
No Laurie, I think that one would be more like Mother Nature catches up with all of us  ;D
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 15, 2011, 10:13:07 AM
I am a pushover.  Always have been.  My parents knew it, my dh knows it, my son knows it; and now my dil knows it.   The difference between my dh knowing it and the rest of my family knowing it is that dh is the only one who doesn't take advantage of me for being a pushover.  My son's "attitude" is not new.  If you read back over my posts, you'll see the attitude started in his teens and just kept growing.  I was hopeful they were "stages," but  I was so wrong.  Instead of being a mouthy, selfish teen, he is now a mouthy, selfish man!  He has not grown to maturity.  I honestly don't believe he's capable of standing on his own two feet.  I don't doubt that he picked his wife because he saw in her a person who would allow him to continue to be immature and rely on her to "carry" him.  You haven't heard son's opinions on certain things.  So much of his opinion is based on how others should or shouldn't spend their money or live their lives.  He's so opinionated about such things that he actually shows a nasty temper when speaking of the way some spend their money or live their lives.  He wants everything he does to be unconditionally accepted, but it's not a privilege he allows others.  You weren't here to witness so many things that were said and done over the years, from his childhood to his claiming his independence. 

I just got off the phone with a friend who knows the situation up close and personal.  I told her some of the advice I've been given here.  Her response was that she could agree with much of the advice you've given if this were a one-time falling out.  However, in light of what she knows has transpired over the years, she doesn't feel she could ever take another step in trying to resolve this; because she's so afraid I'd be setting myself up to once again be taken advantage of.  There's no way she would have taken as much as dh and I have already taken, in spite of the fact that she,too, loves her children. 

So, why do I hold on?  Even "I" don't know at this point except to revert back to the fact that I've allowed this to go on out of an obvious one-sided love affair with my son.  Out of  love, I couldn't treat him the way he's treated me.  My friend doesn't believe son's gifts are "reaching out" to me.  She believes it's a connection he's keeping "just in case"..........just  in case another time comes up that he finds himself needing us for something.  The presents aren't working with my dh.  He's had it with ds!  He doesn't intend to wish him even a happy birthday.  He's given his life to a child he didn't even father biologically but loved as his own.  He never expected that child to turn on us............not with all he provided that child.  Dh has let me know that, if I send birthday wishes to son, I'm not to add his name to it.  This is a man who, even after son got married and was on his own, if dh bought himself something , he'd always think, "Boy, I  bet ds could use one of these,  too;" and then he'd go ahead and purchase that item to give to ds.  No occasion was ever necessary.  DH is just that wonderful type of man.  But that's all over now.  DH hurt beyond words. 

I'll send birthday wishes tomorrow, but they'll be solely from me.  I don't think son has any intentions of changing this situation, even if I were to sacrifice my own feelings.  He'd just be happy to win another "bout" in the "take advantage" fight he's made of our relationship. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 15, 2011, 10:27:26 AM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 15, 2011, 07:50:34 AM
  It could be worse- he could live on the other side of the country and imagine how much you'd see him then! 


That wouldn't be worse, overwhelmed.  In a case like that, I could accept that it's unreasonable to expect him to visit more often.
He's willing to give and do so much for complete strangers, while he turns his back on those who love and gave the most.  I'm not asking for too much.  Any decent human being whose had life as good as son has wouldn't even have to be asked to visit more often.
But that would take an "unselfish" human being.  It would mean our taking up his beloved SPORT and drinking his beloved BEER in order for him to consider us worthy of a minute of his time.  We're not about to do either.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 10:39:26 AM
Can I ask Angie, and I'm asking because I truly want to understand, what are you trying to accomplish with the email on his birthday?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 15, 2011, 10:47:05 AM
Quote from: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 10:39:26 AM
Can I ask Angie, and I'm asking because I truly want to understand, what are you trying to accomplish with the email on his birthday?


Just to let him know I didn't forget..........even though there's no gift involved.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 11:36:57 AM
Thanks for answering.  I really hope you don't feel I am giving you a hard time.  I am sincerely trying to understand where you are at with this.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 15, 2011, 11:49:28 AM
Quote from: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 11:36:57 AM
Thanks for answering.  I really hope you don't feel I am giving you a hard time.  I am sincerely trying to understand where you are at with this.

I didn't interpret it as your trying to give me a hard time, Pooh.  My emotions are in such a turmoil that even I can't understand myself, so how can I expect others to understand.  I think I was doing just a tiny bit better until my friend passed, I got sick and birthday time came up.     
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 12:13:05 PM
It is hard when things come up and send us backwards.  I have been cleaning out my house in another county, getting it ready to sell.  When I married my DH, I still had my home and he had his.  So for two years, I have been working on getting mine all spruced up, and 22 years of stuff cleared out.

I have been fine with my DS situation, but last week, I decided to tackle two huge totes full of pictures.  Yes, I was world's worst about just throwing all my pictures over the years in these two totes.  I have been putting it off, but I knew I had to do it.  So I had several photo boxes around me, and I was going through them all dividing up the pictures into boxes for both boys and also a box to give to their Dad.  I wanted to burn all the wedding pictures a couple of years ago, but my Mother wisely talked me out of it, saying that someday, the boys would want them.  After all, we are still their parents.  Thank you Mom! 

So I tackled it, but I shed a few tears while doing it.  Seeing all the pictures of my OS, brought back all the love and good times and I had to fight through it all to get it done.  I had to keep reminding myself that my memories were still intact, although my relationship with him is not.  I was even surprised to find myself a little wistful over my wedding pictures and early days of my first marriage, when there were good memories, for about two seconds!  But then I remembered how much better my life is now with a very good DH.

So I do understand that there are days that you will feel in turmoil and other things will happen that seems to make you stagger.  But you can do this.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 15, 2011, 12:54:58 PM
OMG, Pooh, going through those pictures had to be tough!  Ironically, just before this last estrangement, I gave all but a couple photo albums to my son.  I had been thinking they would be his one day anyway, so why not just give them to him now.  I do still have the family videos though, but I refuse to watch them.  I remember one day when ds, dil, dh and I were watching the videos and son said (after watching himself as a youngster), "Boy, I was a brat!"  I have news for him.  He still is!

Just before I got sick, dh and I had a night out with friends.  I had a really good time and thought I'd like to keep up the pattern of going out.  Wouldn't I get sick right at the point of making that decision!!!  Although my chest and lungs are much more clear, I'm still so badly congested in my head that it's giving me vertigo; and I'm wondering if I'll get back that feeling of wanting to go out and have fun.  I sure can't do it in this condition.  Ever feel like even the smallest things can't seem to go your way?  I had plans for dh and me to  go to an Irish pub for St. Patrick's Day.  That's not gonna happen either.  It was hard enough for me to reach the decision to go out and have fun.  I didn't need something to set me back.  It would have been so much nicer to be out through this birthday time rather than sitting here sick and having so much time to dwell on everything.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 01:19:41 PM
You just get yourself well and you will be ready to go out again.  You just don't feel good right now.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: lancaster lady on March 15, 2011, 01:24:11 PM
angie:
Maybe that's the answer , imagine he lives in another country .
Then it won't be so painful ......
your body is maybe telling you , it's time for you to look after you .
you will always love your DS , but you don't have to like him .
you need something  to aim for  when you are better .
so why not concentrate on a holiday , start to plan , get brochures etc .
sort out your wardrobe for holiday clothes .
He is getting on with his life , you should do the same .
Sending healing thoughts .....x
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 15, 2011, 01:36:22 PM
Quote from: lancaster lady on March 15, 2011, 01:24:11 PM
angie:
Maybe that's the answer , imagine he lives in another country .
Then it won't be so painful ......
your body is maybe telling you , it's time for you to look after you .
you will always love your DS , but you don't have to like him .
you need something  to aim for  when you are better .
so why not concentrate on a holiday , start to plan , get brochures etc .
sort out your wardrobe for holiday clothes .
He is getting on with his life , you should do the same .
Sending healing thoughts .....x

Hi, lancaster lady!  Holidays away for any length of time aren't doable, since adopting two rescue dogs; because we have no one to sit with them, and kennels are out of the question.  However, nights out are doable; and that's what I'm aiming for.  I wish I were good at pretending son lives in another country, but my head won't play along.  I also wish dh and I had moved a long, long time ago so that we wouldn't have had the interference from my parents while raising my son.  I truly believe that's one of the things that's causing us to pay dearly now.  Unfortunately, it's not always easy to quit a job and pick up and leave, which is what dh would have had to do in order for us to go.  We almost did move away at one point but then decided against it.  Good thing because it wasn't long after that the company folded. 

I thank you for sending healing thoughts.  You're very kind.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 02:42:54 PM
Well, yesterday was our 40th anniversary.  We got an email from son saying, "Happy anniversary mom and dad.  Love ...." That was followed up by another email from him in which he stated that he neglected to add his wife's name.  We didn't respond.  Today we received flowers from them.  We then sent son an email saying, "The flowers are beautiful; but your presence to celebrate our 40th wedding anniversary would have meant more.  Since your choice is not to allow that to happen, please don't send any more flowers as a substitute."  No response.  But I don't think I really expected one.  I'd like to be able to get over this once and for all; and, since keeping my distance and keeping my mouth shut about visits (as he obviously wanted) haven't proven to change anything, I think it might be better if he didn't acknowledge any "special days," because it only sets my emotions into a turmoil.  It makes me feel like a starving person to whom he's given one bite of food and then takes the plate away, knowing I'm still hungry.

Angie
   
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 28, 2011, 03:15:03 PM
Sorry you are still hurting, Angie.  I hope you guys can find a happy medium that works for everybody in the near future.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on March 28, 2011, 03:17:30 PM
Angie,

Despite all of that, I'd like to wish you a Happy 40th! That's a good milestone. That's something to celebrate.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on March 28, 2011, 03:17:50 PM
Hi Angie,
Happy Anniversary, I hope you and your husband did something special for this occasion.

Angie, I do not think there is any "getting over" this situation.  It is a case of living with it, just as you would in the death of a child.

I can understand how when he sends you a message and flowers, you hope for more.  At this point in his life, he is not ready to give more, but he did not ignore your anniversary, which means he still thinks of you.

I know how difficult it is, I am going through the same thing with my odd, and I do not expect her to acknowledge my birthday next month.         

Take care Angie...........Jill
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: lancaster lady on March 28, 2011, 03:49:13 PM
Hi Angie ,
this is your Ruby Wedding anniversary , Congratulations !
How would you feel if you hadn't heard from your DS ? no card , no flowers , nothing at all ?
Wouldn't that have been ten times worse ?
This means that you are in his thoughts , he has taken the time to chose and order flowers for you .He's not there
in person , but he's thinking of you . That must mean something .
You are still in his life , I don't see my oldest DS as much as I want to , but I know he's still my son
and I am his Mom .Nothing will change that .
By sending you flowers I think he is still acknowledging that fact .
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 03:52:20 PM
Thank you.......EVERYONE........for the anniversary wishes. We had a nice time out with some friends on Sat. night.  Also, dh got me a brand new car.  Hurray, since I haven't had one in over 12 years. Admittedly, the one dh traded for the new one was a real cream puff.......very well taken care of and in stellar condition.

  Jill, I'm quickly reaching the point where I don't believe he'll EVER be ready to give more.  He's had things his way for pretty near a year (in May), yet nothing has prompted him to want anything more to do with us besides acknowledging special days.  I think one of the things that blows my mind is the way he throws around the word "love" by signing everything he sends us "Love, ____."   In light of everything he's doing that he KNOWS hurts us, I have to wonder just what his definition of love is.  His actions certainly don't define MY definition of love.

BTW, has anyone told you gals lately how wonderful you are?  You can be counted on to jump right in with advice and always a shoulder to lean on or cry on.  It's important to me that you know I'm grateful.  I may not be a very wise woman, but I'm surrounded by very wise women here.  Thank you for letting me just be me.

Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 03:59:41 PM
Quote from: lancaster lady on March 28, 2011, 03:49:13 PM
Hi Angie ,
this is your Ruby Wedding anniversary , Congratulations !
How would you feel if you hadn't heard from your DS ? no card , no flowers , nothing at all ?
Wouldn't that have been ten times worse ?
This means that you are in his thoughts , he has taken the time to chose and order flowers for you .He's not there
in person , but he's thinking of you . That must mean something .
You are still in his life , I don't see my oldest DS as much as I want to , but I know he's still my son
and I am his Mom .Nothing will change that .
By sending you flowers I think he is still acknowledging that fact .

Truth be told, I don't consider what he's doing as still being in his life, lancaster lady.  We're his parents, yet we're getting flowers in place of HIM, while strangers get HIM.  This is not keeping us in his life.  This is merely tokenism. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: FAFE on March 28, 2011, 04:35:03 PM
Happy Anniversary Angie & DH. We will be celebrating our 40th in July.  Sorry you are hurting, but will pray that you can find some "happiness" somewhere out there.  What's so bad about the way our children act is that unfortunately theirs will probably treat them the say darn way! 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: FAFE on March 28, 2011, 04:35:03 PM
Happy Anniversary Angie & DH. We will be celebrating our 40th in July.  Sorry you are hurting, but will pray that you can find some "happiness" somewhere out there.  What's so bad about the way our children act is that unfortunately theirs will probably treat them the say darn way!

In case I miss the date or am not around, I want to wish you a most wonderful 40th Annniversary early, FAFE!  I hope, by the time July comes, you find yourself unbelievably happy, with everything happening the way you want it to happen.  As for our children's children treating them the way they've treated us, well, son has made sure it won't happen to him.  He's chosen not to have children of his own.  Since everything has always been all about HIM, he's not about to let it change. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Keys Girl on March 28, 2011, 04:50:44 PM
Angie, congratulations on your anniversary.

I'm in a similar set of circumstances with my son.  After 4 months of him "cutting the cord" completely and sending me an email saying that he didn't want to keep in touch with me which was signed "Goodbye" with his name, this after a 2 and a half month "Cold shoulder" treatment when he had to call me back and never did, I have to say, that while it's sad beyond measure, in the last two weeks, I've moved to a spot where I am happier than I have been for the last couple of years when the hostilities started with him and his bride to be.  My friends tell me I look younger, my blood pressure is down dramatically, I laugh often and provoke laughter in many others and I look forward to the next few months of my life with optimism instead of dread as I would be if I was still in the pressure cooker with his bride to be "She who must be obeyed".

I know the agony that you are going through, it cuts like a knife, but at this point in time I can't think of any reason that I would want my son in my life any more than he is now, which is nothing at all, at his choice.  It's a decision that I've come to with a lot of agonizing and dread over more than 2 years, but the wherefore and the why of why your son is treating you the way he is, doesn't matter, in my opinion.  That he is doing it and quite deliberately and boldly telling you in what could be termed a malicious fashion is key.  It's an extraordinary grief that mothers like us suffer through, but as the Japanese say "Fall down 6 times, get up 7".  The rollercoaster of negative emotions like guilt, regret and sadness has slowed down to a crawl in my case.  When I feel it starting to start I remind myself "I did everything I could, I did my best".  Things don't always work out the way you expect them to so my suggestion is to is change the input to change the output.

What he is willing to do now or in the future, I don't think you should waste a minute speculating on.  If he does something positive, thank him but ask for nothing more. 

Acceptance of these circumstances (in my opinion and experience) is one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life.

The guilts try to land on my shoulder almost every day.  I tell myself:

My job as a "hand on mother" is over.
My job is to enjoy my life as much as possible for however many years I have left and take care of my health and myself, first above others.  Every other.
If my son chooses not to be part of my life, I need to respect that choice, as difficult as it is, but refuse to allow it to cast a long or short shadow in my life.  It already has and my health suffered because of it, but I'm on the mend now.

I'm not saying it's easy but any stretch of the imagination, but as the old saying goes "You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink", I know that you can bring up a child to be an adult to the best of your abilities, instilling him with your values and a wonderful example but he may not bring you the joy and respect and affection and spend time with you that you expected he would. 

As someone told me many years ago - "Drive on" always "Drive on".





Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: FAFE on March 28, 2011, 04:51:14 PM
Angie, I must have missed that about him not having children.  Thanks for the anniversary wish.  I'm calling it my anniversary season as we are going on a cruise in May to start celebrating!  Wish we lived closer and we'd get together for an late/early celebration together. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cadagi101 on March 28, 2011, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 28, 2011, 03:52:20 PM
Thank you.......EVERYONE........for the anniversary wishes. We had a nice time out with some friends on Sat. night.  Also, dh got me a brand new car.  Hurray, since I haven't had one in over 12 years. Admittedly, the one dh traded for the new one was a real cream puff.......very well taken care of and in stellar condition.

  Jill, I'm quickly reaching the point where I don't believe he'll EVER be ready to give more.  He's had things his way for pretty near a year (in May), yet nothing has prompted him to want anything more to do with us besides acknowledging special days.  I think one of the things that blows my mind is the way he throws around the word "love" by signing everything he sends us "Love, ____."   In light of everything he's doing that he KNOWS hurts us, I have to wonder just what his definition of love is.  His actions certainly don't define MY definition of love.

BTW, has anyone told you gals lately how wonderful you are?  You can be counted on to jump right in with advice and always a shoulder to lean on or cry on.  It's important to me that you know I'm grateful.  I may not be a very wise woman, but I'm surrounded by very wise women here.  Thank you for letting me just be me.

Angie



Hi Angie,
I have read your post again  today from the very beginning and I have noticed something that stands out a mile....
1. the wonderful advice given by the WW here, although they readily admit they have had similar feelings and have come to realize they did the very best they could when they had their children and how they have turned out as adults has absolutely zilch to do with it as we all showed unconditional love to then.   

and.....the strength you have gained in the last month is a credit to you.  Although your comment today has let me (and you down a bit) ...you have said you "may not be a very wise women"   that is just plain wrong because ...

You have given a great insight to us  made me think about my situation and how we have been so similar..yes... and as you have also said "we gave unconditional love....but..you would have discovered early in the posts  that sadly that just doesn't "set in concrete our ds or dd will carry on our values and show the love and respect to us as we showed them and our parents.     You have helped us so much with the compassion you have showed to us through  your posts and the replies have been amazingly helpful and I thankyou for that.   

You must feel strong in yourself and can smile right now that you are not allowing  ds to take  you and dh for granted.     

Congratulations on your anniversary.

I understand how you believe your son's "efforts " are merely tokenism.     

Is he still living only 15min away.  You may  feel  differently if he were in another state.     

Hang in there you are doing well.




Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 05:08:23 PM
Quote from: Keys Girl on March 28, 2011, 04:50:44 PM
Angie, congratulations on your anniversary.

I'm in a similar set of circumstances with my son.  After 4 months of him "cutting the cord" completely and sending me an email saying that he didn't want to keep in touch with me which was signed "Goodbye" with his name, this after a 2 and a half month "Cold shoulder" treatment when he had to call me back and never did, I have to say, that while it's sad beyond measure, in the last two weeks, I've moved to a spot where I am happier than I have been for the last couple of years when the hostilities started with him and his bride to be.  My friends tell me I look younger, my blood pressure is down dramatically, I laugh often and provoke laughter in many others and I look forward to the next few months of my life with optimism instead of dread as I would be if I was still in the pressure cooker with his bride to be "She who must be obeyed".

I know the agony that you are going through, it cuts like a knife, but at this point in time I can't think of any reason that I would want my son in my life any more than he is now, which is nothing at all, at his choice.  It's a decision that I've come to with a lot of agonizing and dread over more than 2 years, but the wherefore and the why of why your son is treating you the way he is, doesn't matter, in my opinion.  That he is doing it and quite deliberately and boldly telling you in what could be termed a malicious fashion is key.  It's an extraordinary grief that mothers like us suffer through, but as the Japanese say "Fall down 6 times, get up 7".  The rollercoaster of negative emotions like guilt, regret and sadness has slowed down to a crawl in my case.  When I feel it starting to start I remind myself "I did everything I could, I did my best".  Things don't always work out the way you expect them to so my suggestion is to is change the input to change the output.

What he is willing to do now or in the future, I don't think you should waste a minute speculating on.  If he does something positive, thank him but ask for nothing more. 

Acceptance of these circumstances (in my opinion and experience) is one of the most difficult things I've ever done in my life.

The guilts try to land on my shoulder almost every day.  I tell myself:

My job as a "hand on mother" is over.
My job is to enjoy my life as much as possible for however many years I have left and take care of my health and myself, first above others.  Every other.
If my son chooses not to be part of my life, I need to respect that choice, as difficult as it is, but refuse to allow it to cast a long or short shadow in my life.  It already has and my health suffered because of it, but I'm on the mend now.

I'm not saying it's easy but any stretch of the imagination, but as the old saying goes "You can bring a horse to water but you can't make him drink", I know that you can bring up a child to be an adult to the best of your abilities, instilling him with your values and a wonderful example but he may not bring you the joy and respect and affection and spend time with you that you expected he would. 

As someone told me many years ago - "Drive on" always "Drive on".

What a wonderful post, Keys Girl.  You've offered much for me to ponder.  Now, all I have to do is let it sink in and apply it to my own life.  I HAVE to learn to lead with my head instead of my heart.  My heart isn't at all wise in making the best decisions for my  own well being.  I think I'll refer back to your post every so often to give myself a swift kick.  My dh has often asked me, since my son's behavior is so-centered and selfish, would  I want him as a friend if he weren't someone I was related to.  The answer is NO.  Yet I continue to hurt my own health over a child who couldn't care less about me, while he carries on with a great life (much of which we provided him with).  There's definitely something wrong with this picture.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 28, 2011, 05:17:11 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 28, 2011, 03:52:20 PM
Thank you.......EVERYONE........for the anniversary wishes. We had a nice time out with some friends on Sat. night.  Also, dh got me a brand new car.  Hurray, since I haven't had one in over 12 years. Admittedly, the one dh traded for the new one was a real cream puff.......very well taken care of and in stellar condition.

  Jill, I'm quickly reaching the point where I don't believe he'll EVER be ready to give more.  He's had things his way for pretty near a year (in May), yet nothing has prompted him to want anything more to do with us besides acknowledging special days.  I think one of the things that blows my mind is the way he throws around the word "love" by signing everything he sends us "Love, ____."   In light of everything he's doing that he KNOWS hurts us, I have to wonder just what his definition of love is.  His actions certainly don't define MY definition of love.

BTW, has anyone told you gals lately how wonderful you are?  You can be counted on to jump right in with advice and always a shoulder to lean on or cry on.  It's important to me that you know I'm grateful.  I may not be a very wise woman, but I'm surrounded by very wise women here.  Thank you for letting me just be me.

Angie


Angie,

Respectfully, have you given him what he's wanted since last May?  From what you have told us, you have kind of been sticking it to him- letting him know in subtle and now not so subtle ways that you are not "okay" with his backing off from you.  I don't know him, but I am guessing that is not what he had in mind.  He probably needed you to be okay with some distance- and since you have been giving nonverbal and sometimes verbal cues that you will not tolerate him living up to your visit expectations, he doesn't want to go any further.

I feel for both of you- you for obvious reasons, but also your son because it seems like he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.  If he sends you something to show he's thinking of you, but not giving into your demands and expectations, you don't appreciate it.  If he doesn't send you anything, I know you'd be criticizing that as well.  Nothing he is going to do is going to live up to your expectations, but wouldn't you rather HE be comfortable with the time he spends with you as well as you appreciating it?  It can't be one way on either side.  I think if you stop to think about the things he is doing to reach out to you and less about the fact that you can't have it "your way," you will realize that he is trying to show you he wants you in his life, but it has to be mutual terms.  As much as you say you don't understand how he can sign "love" with his name because he knows what he is doing hurts you, he could be thinking the same about you.  No one defines love the same, no one shows love the same, and more importantly no one shows love by compliance to what someone else wants you to do.  I wouldn't want that kind of love.  I wouldn't want my DH ignoring his own individual needs as a person because he feels he has to comply with what I want simply because I want it (and if he doesn't do it, I will accuse him of not loving me) Because he isn't doing what you want him to doesn't mean he doesn't love you.  It means he is an individual with a different set of core values, beliefs, and morals and that doesn't make him any less capable of love. 

I also suggest you stop thinking of his friends in terms of "strangers."  I've seen you say that before.  He'd rather spend time with "strangers" than you.  They may be strangers to you, but they certainly aren't strangers to him.  They are his friends who are probably more like family.  Everyone has them.  I have friends who I consider more like family, but my parents don't know them as well.  It's unfair to call them strangers as if they are undeserving of his time, yet you are. 

I really really do think you need to take a big step back from this for the sake of all parties involved and open your mind up a little.  What do you really want from him?  Because to me it sounds like all or nothing.  Either visits when you deem appropriate, or no contact at all because anything in between just sets you off or you deem as "crumbs."  Is that fair to any of you?  I don't think so.  There have to be compromises in all relationships.  I don't know what it is you want at this point, but I can tell you my husband and his mother haven't spoken for over a year, and it was because she wanted all or nothing.  She wanted him to either live up to her expectations of what she thought was acceptable, she wanted to keep tabs on the percentage of time spent with her and other parties, and he needed a compromise so he could be an individual first and come back to the family as his own person.  That was not acceptable and now they are not on speaking terms.  I can tell you without a doubt that was 100% preventable had his mother just accepted the fact that he is not her and he does not think as she thinks.  Had she just accepted this fact and appreciated the gestures with warm regard, it would have inevitably led to more contact until he got to a place he was more comfortable with.  I just feel like your son is testing the waters and you're shutting him down every step he takes.  I don't know the solution, I just feel for you and your DH AND your son.  I feel like all parties are hurting and that it doesn't have to be this way.

I like keys girl's post and I think it was very well written but remember your son isn't cutting you off.  He is trying to be a part of your life in ways that he is comfortable with at this point in time.  You're the one deciding to cut him off because he isn't living up to your expectations. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 05:25:32 PM
Quote from: Julia on March 28, 2011, 04:52:58 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 28, 2011, 03:52:20 PM
Thank you.......EVERYONE........for the anniversary wishes. We had a nice time out with some friends on Sat. night.  Also, dh got me a brand new car.  Hurray, since I haven't had one in over 12 years. Admittedly, the one dh traded for the new one was a real cream puff.......very well taken care of and in stellar condition.

  Jill, I'm quickly reaching the point where I don't believe he'll EVER be ready to give more.  He's had things his way for pretty near a year (in May), yet nothing has prompted him to want anything more to do with us besides acknowledging special days.  I think one of the things that blows my mind is the way he throws around the word "love" by signing everything he sends us "Love, ____."   In light of everything he's doing that he KNOWS hurts us, I have to wonder just what his definition of love is.  His actions certainly don't define MY definition of love.

BTW, has anyone told you gals lately how wonderful you are?  You can be counted on to jump right in with advice and always a shoulder to lean on or cry on.  It's important to me that you know I'm grateful.  I may not be a very wise woman, but I'm surrounded by very wise women here.  Thank you for letting me just be me.

Angie



Hi Angie,
I have read your post again  today from the very beginning and I have noticed something that stands out a mile....
1. the wonderful advice given by the WW here, although they readily admit they have had similar feelings and have come to realize they did the very best they could when they had their children and how they have turned out as adults has absolutely zilch to do with it as we all showed unconditional love to then.   

and.....the strength you have gained in the last month is a credit to you.  Although your comment today has let me (and you down a bit) ...you have said you "may not be a very wise women"   that is just plain wrong because ...

You have given a great insight to us  made me think about my situation and how we have been so similar..yes... and as you have also said "we gave unconditional love....but..you would have discovered early in the posts  that sadly that just doesn't "set in concrete our ds or dd will carry on our values and show the love and respect to us as we showed them and our parents.     You have helped us so much with the compassion you have showed to us through  your posts and the replies have been amazingly helpful and I thankyou for that.   

You must feel strong in yourself and can smile right now that you are not allowing  ds to take  you and dh for granted.     

Congratulations on your anniversary.

I understand how you believe your son's "efforts " are merely tokenism.     

Is he still living only 15min away.  You may  feel  differently if he were in another state.     

Hang in there you are doing well.

Awwwww, Julia, if you were near, I think I'd give you a hug.  Thank you for the congratulations on our anniversary,  and thank you for feeling I've made some progress and possibly helped others, even if just a teeny bit. Thank you, also, for seeing the tokenism in my son's actions. My son still lives only 15 minutes away.  I fear that a neighbor will eventually notice that he doesn't visit us at all any more.  I worry about what I'll answer if they should ask why they never see him around.  I worry about the shame I'll feel when/if the neighbors do learn that son has estranged himself from us.  BUT there are those days I don't dwell on it, so I guess that's progress. :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 05:43:45 PM
I don't know what I could have said to give you the impression that I'm jabbing at him, overwhelmed. He hasn't called me, and I haven't called him.  Up until today, when he's sent a gift, I've acknowledged it without ever mentioning visits at all. In fact, I haven't mentioned anything about anything except to let him know my df was sick.  I've applied no pressure about anything.........until today, when dh and I decided to send him the email about not sending flowers any more.  And that email was to let him know that, just as he wants the right to do what he wants, so do we.......and we don't want flowers substituted for an occasional visit from him.  DH and I don't think that's unreasonable.  Just because son's satisfied with sending flowers instead of ever seeing us again, that doesn't mean WE have to be satisfied with that decision.  Things have always been son's way or the highway.  That may not be the way you see it, but that's the way it's always been; and we've abided by that in order to keep him a part of our lives.  We've given him all the space a person could desire for nearly a year, yet he still hasn't come for even one visit.  Were we not abiding by his wishes all this time.........without harping on it at all?  Frankly, we're weary of giving in to his every whim because we feel we deserve at  least as much respect as son does.  As for referring to "strangers" getting him, I meant that they're not blood.  Even if he looks on them as family, why does it have to mean he gives up his parents?   
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Keys Girl on March 28, 2011, 05:56:34 PM


I fear that a neighbor will eventually notice that he doesn't visit us at all any more.  I worry about what I'll answer if they should ask why they never see him around.  I worry about the shame I'll feel when/if the neighbors do learn that son has estranged himself from us.  BUT there are those days I don't dwell on it, so I guess that's progress. :)
[/quote]

Angie, I hope that you won't be feeling any shame for a second over what your neighbours think.  It's none of their business who comes to visit you or the state of your relationships.  I think shame should be reserved for people like Bernie Madoff who are bad to the bone.

If anyone asks I would say "Oh, they are doing their own thing as fine as far as I know", and then ask them to borrow $1,000 for a charitable donation.  Ask them for a charitable donation every time anyone asks a nosy question........send the money to a children's charity, have a party, invite anyone who chipped in, heck get a block party going, the 4th of July is just around the corner!!  (I've met many people who have at least one estranged adult child over the years, you would be surprised at how many people are in the same boat).

On another topic, I have to say that I now only have one family member left, but many, many wonderful people who are friends are closer to me than many "blood" relatives.   In my opinion, blood doesn't much matter, that's just biology, the people who are there for you and add to your life rather than subtract from it may be a "family" of friends but have no doubt the bonds that I have with them are just as strong and secure as any I might have had with biological relatives, in fact maybe even stronger.

I don't believe that your son is necessarily giving up his parents for his family of friends, once again, that's the way he's choosing to live his life, his choices as well as yours I believe should be respected.   
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 06:15:45 PM
Quote from: Keys Girl on March 28, 2011, 05:56:34 PM


I fear that a neighbor will eventually notice that he doesn't visit us at all any more.  I worry about what I'll answer if they should ask why they never see him around.  I worry about the shame I'll feel when/if the neighbors do learn that son has estranged himself from us.  BUT there are those days I don't dwell on it, so I guess that's progress. :)

Angie, I hope that you won't be feeling any shame for a second over what your neighbours think.  It's none of their business who comes to visit you or the state of your relationships.  I think shame should be reserved for people like Bernie Madoff who are bad to the bone.

If anyone asks I would say "Oh, they are doing their own thing as fine as far as I know", and then ask them to borrow $1,000 for a charitable donation.  Ask them for a charitable donation every time anyone asks a nosy question........send the money to a children's charity, have a party, invite anyone who chipped in, heck get a block party going, the 4th of July is just around the corner!!  (I've met many people who have at least one estranged adult child over the years, you would be surprised at how many people are in the same boat).

On another topic, I have to say that I now only have one family member left, but many, many wonderful people who are friends are closer to me than many "blood" relatives.   In my opinion, blood doesn't much matter, that's just biology, the people who are there for you and add to your life rather than subtract from it may be a "family" of friends but have no doubt the bonds that I have with them are just as strong and secure as any I might have had with biological relatives, in fact maybe even stronger.

I don't believe that your son is necessarily giving up his parents for his family of friends, once again, that's the way he's choosing to live his life, his choices as well as yours I believe should be respected.
[/quote]

Oh gosh, Keys Girl, I'm learning what an epidemic child/parent estrangement has become.  I'm still uncomfortable with the thought of being asked about my son's absence though. 

To overwhelmed:  Our door has been open to him. I never said it wouldn't be;  but, even after all this time, he hasn't chosen to walk through it.  I honestly thought that, if we just let him go, said nothing to pressure him about visiting, etc., he would see a change and WANT to visit.  Why did I think that you may ask.  Because, according to him, my asking to see him more often was the cause for the estrangement to begin with. Okay, so all this time I haven't made mention of that which he claimed annoyed him.  What's his excuse now------now that his parents haven't attempted to bug him about visits?  If you tell me the email we sent today sent the wrong message, well that's too bad.  At least our message conveyed that flowers can't take his place.  His messages convey that we should be happy with flowers instead of him.  That just isn't acceptable.   
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cadagi101 on March 28, 2011, 06:33:59 PM
  I fear that a neighbor will eventually notice that he doesn't visit us at all any more.  I worry about what I'll answer if they should ask why they never see him around.  I worry about the shame I'll feel when/if the neighbors do learn that son has estranged himself from us.  BUT there are those days I don't dwell on it, so I guess that's progress. :)[/b]
[/quote


Angie,  why waste time worrying what a neighbour thinks.  It isn't any of there business,   and if they want  to make it "there business" by commenting to you then they are only neighbours and not friends, a friend wouldn't put you in the position where you have to explain why ds doesn't visit.     

Why don't you "get in first"  if you think they are nosey and noticing he doesn't come around, when speaking to the neighbour jump in with "gosh I wish ds had more time to visit,  oh well occasionally is better than nothing.    He's going well that all that matters and smile lots etc etc   ds sent lovely floweres for our anniversay.   It is an untruth but somex's it doesn't hurt to stretch it a bit.      The neighbour doesn't see every move and every visitor you have so if he does say something to you say "gee I didn't realise you spent so much time watching who comes and goes.  I wouldn't have a clue who visits you and how often.

That is just what I would do in your situation ....It is different for me, we are used to not seeing anyone for weeks (except for an agronomist) occasionally.  Our nearest neighbour is 25's away and my ds is now 550k's  (6 hrs if anyone is wondering about k's)

So who comes and goes when and where is so far out of the realms of my thinking I can only say don't let it take up another moment of your time.

You do not ever have to explain estrangement or anything you don't want to to anyone.     It isn't anything to be ashamed of and the definition of estrangement is "feeling alienated from other people".   Says nothing about the sort of parent you were and at the same time doesn't say anything derogatory about your son either.     

So why worry???
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: cadagi101 on March 28, 2011, 06:35:59 PM
Quote from: Julia on March 28, 2011, 06:33:59 PM
  I fear that a neighbor will eventually notice that he doesn't visit us at all any more.  I worry about what I'll answer if they should ask why they never see him around.  I worry about the shame I'll feel when/if the neighbors do learn that son has estranged himself from us.  BUT there are those days I don't dwell on it, so I guess that's progress. :)[/b]
[/quote


Angie,  why waste time worrying what a neighbour thinks.  It isn't any of there business,   and if they want  to make it "there business" by commenting to you then they are only neighbours and not friends, a friend wouldn't put you in the position where you have to explain why ds doesn't visit.     

Why don't you "get in first"  if you think they are nosey and noticing he doesn't come around, when speaking to the neighbour jump in with "gosh I wish ds had more time to visit,  oh well occasionally is better than nothing.    He's going well that all that matters and smile lots etc etc   ds sent lovely floweres for our anniversay.   It is an untruth but somex's it doesn't hurt to stretch it a bit.      The neighbour doesn't see every move and every visitor you have so if he does say something to you say "gee I didn't realise you spent so much time watching who comes and goes.  I wouldn't have a clue who visits you and how often.

That is just what I would do in your situation ....It is different for me, we are used to not seeing anyone for weeks (except for an agronomist) occasionally.  Our nearest neighbour is 25's away and my ds is now 550k's  (6 hrs if anyone is wondering about k's)

So who comes and goes when and where is so far out of the realms of my thinking I can only say don't let it take up another moment of your time.

You do not ever have to explain estrangement or anything you don't want to to anyone.     It isn't anything to be ashamed of and the definition of estrangement is "feeling alienated from other people".   Says nothing about the sort of parent you were and at the same time doesn't say anything derogatory about your son either.     

So why worry???

Key's girl posted the same time i did "great minds think alike"
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 06:53:12 PM
Overwhelmed.......still pondering what you said.  You said it sounds like son's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.  Educate me, if you will.  What do you think I'm supposed to say or do?  When he sends flowers, I acknowledge the flowers but I don't say anything else.  Is that slamming the door in his face?  If I were to say anything about "seeing" him, wouldn't that be precisely what he doesn't want to hear?  So, who's REALLY damned if I do and damned if I don't?  I don't know or understand what I'm allowed to say or not allowed to say at this point.  Anything can set him off.  Frankly, dh and I are tired of walking on egg shells whenever we're in his company.  My dh is happy with things just the way they are, because he became totally disgusted with son's constant "attitude."  My dh can't understand why I'm NOT happy with things the way they are.  Guess ya have to be a mother to understand how much a mother will tolerate in order to keep a relationship with her child(ren).  My friends have all said they would have told son off a long time ago rather than put up with what he's  dished out to us. Well, that's easy to say if it hasn't happened to them.

If you have children, I'd like to know how it would make you feel to see them very little during the course of a year, even if they live close by and expect you to drop what you're doing if they should need something, and if, during the few visits they did make to your home, they were bored being with "older people" so they spent their time visiting you by talking on their cell phone to their friends instead of talking to you or if they went to your computer to email with their friends or look up sports equipment instead of talking to you.  My dh and friends can't understand what it is that I miss, since they don't feel there was anything great for me to be missing.  And I can't understand how son could be so mad at my mentioning wanting to see him more often.  We didn't even see each other or talk to each other often enough to give me many opportunities to even mention more visits, so how often could I even have had an opportunity to bring it up?   He said cruel things and made faces at me that last Mother's Day we were together.  Which 42-yr. old do you know that acts that immature?  It shocked me to see a grown man act  like that.  That's the sort of thing grade school kids do. I honestlly feel that I'm the one caught between a rock and a hard place.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 07:02:03 PM
Quote from: Julia on March 28, 2011, 06:33:59 PM
  I fear that a neighbor will eventually notice that he doesn't visit us at all any more.  I worry about what I'll answer if they should ask why they never see him around.  I worry about the shame I'll feel when/if the neighbors do learn that son has estranged himself from us.  BUT there are those days I don't dwell on it, so I guess that's progress. :)[/b]
[/quote


Angie,  why waste time worrying what a neighbour thinks.  It isn't any of there business,   and if they want  to make it "there business" by commenting to you then they are only neighbours and not friends, a friend wouldn't put you in the position where you have to explain why ds doesn't visit.     

Why don't you "get in first"  if you think they are nosey and noticing he doesn't come around, when speaking to the neighbour jump in with "gosh I wish ds had more time to visit,  oh well occasionally is better than nothing.    He's going well that all that matters and smile lots etc etc   ds sent lovely floweres for our anniversay.   It is an untruth but somex's it doesn't hurt to stretch it a bit.      The neighbour doesn't see every move and every visitor you have so if he does say something to you say "gee I didn't realise you spent so much time watching who comes and goes.  I wouldn't have a clue who visits you and how often.

That is just what I would do in your situation ....It is different for me, we are used to not seeing anyone for weeks (except for an agronomist) occasionally.  Our nearest neighbour is 25's away and my ds is now 550k's  (6 hrs if anyone is wondering about k's)

So who comes and goes when and where is so far out of the realms of my thinking I can only say don't let it take up another moment of your time.

You do not ever have to explain estrangement or anything you don't want to to anyone.     It isn't anything to be ashamed of and the definition of estrangement is "feeling alienated from other people".   Says nothing about the sort of parent you were and at the same time doesn't say anything derogatory about your son either.     

So why worry???


You and Keys Girl are right, Julia.  I may just say what was suggested about how he's fine and very busy.  Hopefully, that will be enough. ;) 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 28, 2011, 07:04:26 PM
"Our door has been open to him. I never said it wouldn't be;  but, even after all this time, he hasn't chosen to walk through it.  I honestly thought that, if we just let him go, said nothing to pressure him about visiting, etc., he would see a change and WANT to visit."

From reading all your posts, I am confident in saying you may have not mentioned visits verbally, but you made sure your son was aware that you were not okay at any point in time with his level of communication.  He originally sent a "test the waters" email and asked how you were doing and you ignored him.  It just continued from there.  You stopped acknowledging things you normally acknowledge to him- nonverbally but clearly telling him you are not accepting his level of comfort.  That's not really "letting him go." I don't think its unusual for him to not go any further down the road.  So, like I said, I don't think he's seeing this as you "respecting" his wishes.  It seems as if you have been pushing back at every attempt of his so that he knows you are not okay with it and you want more.  His attempts have not been warmly received.  You feel pain and you want to send it back to him- that has been clear in your posts so I'm sure it's clear to him.  He's not comfortable moving forward until you can be comfortable with the distance and you haven't shown that to him. 

Like I said before, I don't mean this harsh, but it sounds like it's either all or nothing for you to be happy and I just think its a sad situation because I think if his communication attempts were warmly received and it didn't seem as if he was being punished for putting space between you guys, this could end much differently.  I hate to see it taking a bad turn.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on March 28, 2011, 07:05:22 PM
Angie,

If a relationship was what you wanted with your DS, e-mailing a response like that probably didn't help things. It allowed you to vent, get something off your chest, and that was that. I understand why you did it, and I would have done the same thing, but I wouldn't think I'd be hearing from him anytime soon.

To me, if I was making effort to reach out (even if only by flowers and e-mail), it shows I'm trying to keep communication lines open. Your response would say to me that I should cease trying to keep any communication lines open at all.

I may be wrong, but I'm just saying how I would perceive it. Is that what you're ready for? Because if you want your son in your life, I think biting your tongue and accepting the flowers and e-mailis (however pitiful a relationship that signifies) may be your best option until he decides to make another move. I'm not saying what he did was right, but you don't sound like a total cutoff is what you're after, and by my viewpoint, I believe that is exactly what would result from an e-mail like that. If that is what you were going for, then I support you; I do believe that is a part of moving on, but I just want to be sure that is what you were after when you sent that e-mail.

What would you like him to do?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 07:12:39 PM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 28, 2011, 07:04:26 PM
"Our door has been open to him. I never said it wouldn't be;  but, even after all this time, he hasn't chosen to walk through it.  I honestly thought that, if we just let him go, said nothing to pressure him about visiting, etc., he would see a change and WANT to visit."

From reading all your posts, I am confident in saying you may have not mentioned visits verbally, but you made sure your son was aware that you were not okay at any point in time with his level of communication.  He originally sent a "test the waters" email and asked how you were doing and you ignored him.  It just continued from there.  You stopped acknowledging things you normally acknowledge to him- nonverbally but clearly telling him you are not accepting his level of comfort.  That's not really "letting him go." I don't think its unusual for him to not go any further down the road.  So, like I said, I don't think he's seeing this as you "respecting" his wishes.  It seems as if you have been pushing back at every attempt of his so that he knows you are not okay with it and you want more.  His attempts have not been warmly received.  You feel pain and you want to send it back to him- that has been clear in your posts so I'm sure it's clear to him.  He's not comfortable moving forward until you can be comfortable with the distance and you haven't shown that to him. 

Like I said before, I don't mean this harsh, but it sounds like it's either all or nothing for you to be happy and I just think its a sad situation because I think if his communication attempts were warmly received and it didn't seem as if he was being punished for putting space between you guys, this could end much differently.  I hate to see it taking a bad turn.

It's really not all or nothing at all.  I'm afraid of two things.  (1) Afraid of bringing up something that will set him off again and (2) afraid of sounding so warm that it confirms to him that I'm as weak as he's accused me of being and that he'll continue to treat me as a pushover.  So, there you have it.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 07:16:18 PM
Quote from: holliberri on March 28, 2011, 07:05:22 PM
Angie,

If a relationship was what you wanted with your DS, e-mailing a response like that probably didn't help things. It allowed you to vent, get something off your chest, and that was that. I understand why you did it, and I would have done the same thing, but I wouldn't think I'd be hearing from him anytime soon.

To me, if I was making effort to reach out (even if only by flowers and e-mail), it shows I'm trying to keep communication lines open. Your response would say to me that I should cease trying to keep any communication lines open at all.

I may be wrong, but I'm just saying how I would perceive it. Is that what you're ready for? Because if you want your son in your life, I think biting your tongue and accepting the flowers and e-mailis (however pitiful a relationship that signifies) may be your best option until he decides to make another move. I'm not saying what he did was right, but you don't sound like a total cutoff is what you're after, and by my viewpoint, I believe that is exactly what would result from an e-mail like that. If that is what you were going for, then I support you; I do believe that is a part of moving on, but I just want to be sure that is what you were after when you sent that e-mail.

What would you like him to do?

Ya know what?  You may be right, holliberri.  In trying to convey to him that flowers can't take his place, he may just interpret it as my cutting off communication.  I honestly didn't mean it that way.  I don't know how to begin to rectify this, if he did, in fact, misinterpret what I meant. :(
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 28, 2011, 07:29:02 PM
Angie.. I believe that is what OW123 was trying to say as well.  Good thoughts are with you.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 07:41:01 PM
Quote from: Laurie on March 28, 2011, 07:29:02 PM
Angie.. I believe that is what OW123 was trying to say as well.  Good thoughts are with you.


Yup, I see that now.  Well, the next occasion that comes up is Mother's Day..........again!  If I don't hear anything, I'll know for sure that my email wasn't taken the way it was meant.  I guess I'll worry about it then and try not to drive myself crazy meanwhile.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on March 28, 2011, 07:43:51 PM
Hi Angie,
I have been reading through the replies here again, and I have to agree, in some ways I think you are giving an ultimatum, you want him to visit, or not have anything to do with him, because of the hurt it brings when he sends flowers.   He has not told you he does not want to have anything to do with you, as many of us here have been told, but what you want is a long way from what he wants.  If he never contacts you again, it will not make you happy.
I would not worry about neighbours, it is none of their business.  I know how you feel ashamed, I feel the same myself, and have not told my close friends about the situation with my odd.  I am sure at some point I will, as it will be hard to keep it a secret forever.
Keys girl, I wish I could be where you are, it sounds like you have been able to put this totally behind you.
Take care Angie..............................hugs, Jill
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on March 28, 2011, 07:47:49 PM
Angie,

Might it be worth it to apologize and just thank him for the flowers instead, so long as you appreciated them? He's not going to walk through a door that doesn't appear to be open. Just a thought.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 07:48:40 PM
Quote from: FAFE on March 28, 2011, 04:51:14 PM
Angie, I must have missed that about him not having children.  Thanks for the anniversary wish.  I'm calling it my anniversary season as we are going on a cruise in May to start celebrating!  Wish we lived closer and we'd get together for an late/early celebration together.


Anniversary season works for me, FAFE!  The cruise sounds wonderful!  So does celebrating our anniversaries together.   :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 07:54:15 PM
Quote from: jill on March 28, 2011, 07:43:51 PM
Hi Angie,
I have been reading through the replies here again, and I have to agree, in some ways I think you are giving an ultimatum, you want him to visit, or not have anything to do with him, because of the hurt it brings when he sends flowers.   He has not told you he does not want to have anything to do with you, as many of us here have been told, but what you want is a long way from what he wants.  If he never contacts you again, it will not make you happy.
I would not worry about neighbours, it is none of their business.  I know how you feel ashamed, I feel the same myself, and have not told my close friends about the situation with my odd.  I am sure at some point I will, as it will be hard to keep it a secret forever.
Keys girl, I wish I could be where you are, it sounds like you have been able to put this totally behind you.
Take care Angie..............................hugs, Jill

What is it that makes me see things so differently than others see them?  Jill, you said, "He has not told you he does not want to have anything to do with you."  That's true.  He hasn't verbalized it.  However, that's all I read when he sends flowers instead of visiting us.  In my mind, I hear "Flowers are all I want to do with you."  That translates in my mind to "I don't want to have anything to do with you."  The flowers, no matter how pretty, mean nothing when he seems so content to keep it at that. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 07:58:47 PM
Quote from: holliberri on March 28, 2011, 07:47:49 PM
Angie,

Might it be worth it to apologize and just thank him for the flowers instead, so long as you appreciated them? He's not going to walk through a door that doesn't appear to be open. Just a thought.

Somewhere in these posts,holliberri, learning to have self respect came up.  My son already thinks I'm weak.  How can I risk an apology that would confirm that, once again, mom's giving in.  Doesn't he owe me an apology for the cruel things he said and the faces he made at me?  Is it all up to me ALL the time?  He's just gonna come away feeling he has the upper hand.......just like always.  "Mom can't stand not having me in her life, so she'll give in to anything; and I never even have to apologize for what I say and do."  I can just hear him saying that.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on March 28, 2011, 08:06:15 PM
Hi Angie,
I think adult children today (not all of them of course) do not have the same sense of responsibility or respect we had for our parents.   They are the "me" generation.
So to him sending flowers to his parents is his way of letting you know he still thinks about you.

Some people here have had absolutely no contact, no phone calls, texts, letters or visits for years, then you know your child has no feelings for you.

I truly feel your pain, Angie, I am going through the same myself with odd.

Hugs.............Jill
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 28, 2011, 08:14:44 PM
Quote from: jill on March 28, 2011, 08:06:15 PM
Hi Angie,
I think adult children today (not all of them of course) do not have the same sense of responsibility or respect we had for our parents.   They are the "me" generation.
So to him sending flowers to his parents is his way of letting you know he still thinks about you.

Some people here have had absolutely no contact, no phone calls, texts, letters or visits for years, then you know your child has no feelings for you.

I truly feel your pain, Angie, I am going through the same myself with odd.

Hugs.............Jill

You may be right, Jill; but I'm honestly not sure.  I was just discussing the conversations here with my dh.  With all due respect, he was amazed that anyone could try to direct me as to what to do about my son; because my dh said, "Even I don't know who that guy (son) is any more, so how can strangers feel they know him or what to do about him?"  He didn't mean that disrespectfully.  He's just genuinely bewildered by all of it, especially by son's behavior.  I think I'm gonna call it a day and get some rest.  This whole thing has me exhausted.  Nighty night.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 28, 2011, 08:27:49 PM
Angie.. I don't think any one is trying to direct you concerning your relationship with your son... I think others have tossed in a lot of 'have you thought about this' type of scenarios, or 'what if you try this'.. with a few 'this is how it sounded to me' 

Your relationship is yours to have and mold the way you see fit.... looking for a different perspective sometimes allows you to think outside of your own eyes and that is what you were seeing in the responses here. 

You and your husband are right.. no one knows your son and the only knowledge gained is from reading your words.  This is how I take these boards, we are not here to change our sons, daughters, or dils.. we are here to try and learn how to adapt to others who are not seeing the relationship the same as we do.  Sometimes all it takes is to view life from a different angle for it all to make sense.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on March 28, 2011, 08:47:32 PM
That's one of the most important contributions we make to each other...perspective without judgment. You take what yu want and leave the rest. Sending love...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: lancaster lady on March 29, 2011, 01:22:41 AM
Angie:
I totally agree with HB.
I feel you have to make peace with the past and move on .
By your DS sending flowers , in my book , this is him still saying Hi Mom , still thinking about you .
Your reply was really like sending the flowers back saying No thank you .!
Just my opinion , like others here , we don't know you or your son , we are on the outside looking in ,
you are living it . Easy for us to make suggestions , harder for you to apply them .
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Nana on March 29, 2011, 02:01:38 AM
Angie
Happy 40th Anniversary!

I thought the same as other ww thought.  At least he sent flowers...a way of saying....I care and love you.  It was one step forward (a move).  Some nice ladies here are hurt because they were completely cut-off of their children's lives.  They would have been so happy to have flowers and e-mail sent to them.   And yes, imagine if ds would have not sent flowers or e-mail, what would have you said or thought for that matter?  Would you feel less hurt?  Think about it....I wouldnt..

I do feel your son loves you but is not ready to visit yet.   Give time to time dear Angie....patience is the answer.  Let him see you strong (and in your new car huh) but in the sense of not demanding or pushing.  Let him think you are doing just fine without him.  It is hard but it can benefit you a lot.

Love you Angie

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: FAFE on March 29, 2011, 05:54:07 AM
Angie, I can so see your point of view as to your son.  I'm thinking that if he lived 1000 miles from you then flowers would have been the way to go.  I think you said he lives 15 minutes from you.  If nothing else, he could have brought them by, said these are for you and Dad, happy anniversary and left.  I can see your hurt and no matter what advice you get here, there or anywhere else, you (as George Bush said) are the decider as to how you respond.

P.S.  Tell your husband we always have an opinion, right, wrong or indifference.  That's how girlfriends handle problems.  LOL. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 06:58:20 AM
I've read all the posts added since last night.  I honestly felt that by simply acknowledging the gifts but not mentioning visiits, I WAS letting him know and see that I'm doing well and am okay with the situation (which was a lie because I'm not doing well without ever getting a visit from him).........but I feel I TRIED to make him think I was so he wouldn't be hesitant to visit.  As for not answering his question about how we were doing, my feeling was "Why ask me in email?  Why not come visit if you're REALLY interested in how we're doing?"  I see it all as pretense.

I think I mentioned somewhere here that I fell in the driveway a little while back and got hurt.  My dil and I have the same hair dresser.  I had to cancel my appt. because I was hurt.  When I was finally able to make another appt. for my hair, my hair dresser said, "Your dil was in, and I asked her how you were doing after your fall.  She said she didn't know."  My hairdresser found that odd, beings we're family and live so near each other.I told my hair dresser there's been no communication.  She was sorry to hear that.  Then I told my dh that NOW son and dil know I fell but don't know the extent to which I was hurt.  DH said, "Okay, now they know; but they don't know how badly you were hurt.  Let's see if they care about your welfare enough to call or visit to see if you're okay."  They never did.  That really irritated my dh; because all he could think was, "He (son) tries to come across as caring by asking how we're doing in an email; but, when he finds out his mother has fallen (and we're sure dil told him), he doesn't bother to see if she's bad off or not.

I've once again reached the point where some suggestions here make me feel I'm supposed to swallow all the pain and still do all it might take to make things work with my son, even if it means losing more self respect.  I love him, I miss him; but I'm tired of being the one who wants a  relationship and will sacrifice everything to get it.  Look, I took abuse from my parents, from an abusive first husband and then from a son who talked to me in ways no child should ever talk to a parent who has always loved him and been there to try to grant his every wish.  Maybe I just am tired of being the one who always cares enough to give in.  Maybe I feel that, since I didn't REALLY do anything to cause this separation (No, I don't  feel wanting to see son a little more was reason for all this to happen), I shouldn't be the one who has to do the crawling once again.  I'm expected to watch everything I say and do, while what is said and done to me is never given a second thought.  Why?  Because children should be granted more liberties than their parents are granted? The pattern has been that I'm to take it and keep my mouth shut.  I'm older now, and I'm tired of the pattern being the same. When is it my turn to have the liberties I've granted others?  And, instead of creating such a scene last Mother's Day, why couldn't son just pacify me for ONCE by giving me just a token of what I've given him all his life.  He was so lucky being raised by my dh and me.  He had advantages most kids don't get thankis to us.  Compared to what he GOT out of having us for parent, are a couple extra visits too much to GIVE?  Really?  You'll never convince me that a couple extra visits would really interfere with the way he chooses to live his life.  Those couple extra visits wouldn't even put a dent in the life style he chooses, because I never exptected him to stay long.  Just dropping by OCCSIONALLY  (no hardship since he lives so near by) to see how we're doing and giving us a hug would have sufficed. But even that was too much to ask of a guy who was given everything he wanted and more.  BTW, lest I forget, there were those visits when he walked in the door and headed straight for the couch to fall asleep.  I didn't get mad.  I simply covered him with a throw and would then wake him later to tell him he'd better go home and get some rest.  Yup, I guess all that makes me a terrible enough mother to stop speaking to.  The things we tolerated from son would be cause for any other parents to throw him out of the house and use Tough Love on.  But that would have made me worry myself sick.  I guess all that makes me a terrible mother who should still be giving in to her child, whether it's warranted or not; and I probably deserve even more punishment than he's already giving me (and, YES, he is punishing me and he knows it).  I guess I should thank God that He gave me no other children for me to treat so horribly.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 07:06:14 AM
Quote from: FAFE on March 29, 2011, 05:54:07 AM
Angie, I can so see your point of view as to your son.  I'm thinking that if he lived 1000 miles from you then flowers would have been the way to go.  I think you said he lives 15 minutes from you.  If nothing else, he could have brought them by, said these are for you and Dad, happy anniversary and left.  I can see your hurt and no matter what advice you get here, there or anywhere else, you (as George Bush said) are the decider as to how you respond.

P.S.  Tell your husband we always have an opinion, right, wrong or indifference.  That's how girlfriends handle problems.  LOL.

Thanks for seeing things from my perspective, FAFE.  I think many of the opinions here might change if they had witnessed up close and personal exactly what it was like raising my son.  No matter what he said or did, we continued giving him what he later admitted was a wonderfully advantaged and loving life (that was said during his college years).  If "I" had had the life my son had growing up, I'd feel so very blessed. Our friends have told us there's no way they would have given as much as we did; and, now that they see how we're being treated, they're glad they didn't make the sacrifices for their kids that we made for ours.

I'll give my dh the message.  LOL
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 29, 2011, 07:43:45 AM
Bless your heart Angie.  It is obvious that you are hurt and struggling to deal with all this.  I am actually very glad to see you come back and continue posting after being given other perspectives.

My take is that in reading your posts, you are still searching for what you want.  You are still trying to look for equality in the relationship, where there is none on his side.  You are still trying to figure out what he is doing and why, and you will never be able to come up with an answer right now, because it is on him.  There is no logic when the other person is not acting logically.

It is true, there are many of us going through this right now.  It is also true, that many of us have no contact.  I personally, would be thrilled if my DS sent an email, text, flowers or anything showing that at least he is still acknowledging that he thinks about me.  Would I prefer a visit?  Absolutely as there is never a substitution for a visit.  So that is totally understandable why you are thinking the way you are.  There is nothing wrong with thinking that way, but trying to be grateful for the small things. 

I do think you need to step back, and decide what you truly want.  If you want absolutely no contact unless he visits, then that is a decision you need to make and move on.  If you want to keep contact, then you will have to settle for his emails and flowers right now.  But you have to make a decision on what you are willing or not willing to except.  I do think the email you sent, although understandable, was telling him that unless he visits in person, don't contact you.  You may not have meant it that way, but that is the spirit that it will be read.  I would read it that way.

It is obvious that you are in great turmoil trying to maintain this relationship and I am very sorry for that.  You are afraid of being seen as weak to your DS, but you are giving him that power.  You have the ability to take control of your life back.  He doesn't have the power unless you give it to him.  You can not make him do what you want any longer.  We lose that ability when they are adults and move on in their lives.  You are the only one that can set your boundaries, and decide what behaviors you will accept and what you will not.  But you also have to be willing to accept the consequences and move on.  That is what strength is and you have plenty of that in you.  Once you realize that strength is living happy within your own skin, you will be surprised at how much time you spent giving someone else that power over you.

You did your job and did it well.  There is no need to try and justify that.  You wouldn't be here if you were not a good parent.  You know it, we know it and he knows it.  Believe in yourself.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 07:54:34 AM
Angie, you sound like you have made your decision you are not budging and you are willing to forgo your relationship with your son because of it.  You say he is punishing you, yet you are also punishing him.  I guess I don't understand what self respect you'd be losing or how you'd be "sacrificing everything" to acknowledge his attempts in a warm regard instead of silently letting him know you do not approve.   There is a way to make this a mutually respectful relationship and there is a big difference in being appreciative that he is trying to stay in touch and dropping everything to do what he wants.  You can take what is given and appreciate it, but still tell him "no," if he calls and says, "we're coming over, you guys need to be there."  There is a happy medium- but if you want it, you have to do what it takes to get there.  It can't be one-sided on either side.

If you are so dead set on making sure he "knows" you have self-respect, then I don't think there is any advice anyone else can give you- you have made your decision to let your relationship with your son decline, and that's okay if that's what you need to do for yourself.  However, if you do want a relationship with your son (I've said it before and I'll say it again) you have got to let go of all the things you did for him when he was younger and the repayment you feel you are owed.  You did those things because you gave birth to him and you loved him and wanted to do those things for him (or at least i hope that's why you did them).  You have got to let go of these expectations of what you feel he should do because of that.  This "if he cared so much how I was doing, he shouldn't email, he should come personally."  He cares- he is asking.  You can't discredit his attempts because they aren't what you want them to be.  If you refuse to budge on your expectations, your son won't come around and you guys will be stuck.  You have to decide what matters to you more and then do what you need to do to get there.  Good luck, Angie.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 07:59:34 AM
PS- Laurie is right- that was what I was trying to say as well.  I was not born with the gene to put things as delicately as others, but it is something I am working on! :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pen on March 29, 2011, 08:05:09 AM
Angie, it would be very hard to live 15 mins away from a loved one and never see them. I agree with the other posters that it could be worse, that your DS could be like so many here who never acknowledge their parents in any way, but at the same time I feel your sadness and pain over the lack of face-to-face visits. Only you know the subtle (and not so subtle) ins & outs of your relationship with DS, so you will handle it in the way that feels right to you. It sounds like a case of "enough is enough." I'm so sorry. Take care.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 08:37:00 AM
I'm definitely hurt and struggling.................and wondering why son's choosing to make this so difficult when all his life we sacrificed to make his life so very easy and fulfilling.  The message I'm gettiing a lot on this board is that he will learn certain things from certain action on our part.  If that's so true, why is it he didn't learn anything from our loving, caring, giving actions while he was growing up?  He certainly isn't responding in kind. 

Some of the guys he hangs with are divorced fathers who only get to see their kids on weekends.  Some of those fathers have been known to say, "I can't join you in sports this weekend, because I'll have my kids; but, hopefully, that should be over soon, and I'll be able to be out there with you guys."  When my son hears talk like that, how can he not think, "Geez, my parents would NEVER have wanted to be rid of me in order to have their own good time!"  There are reminders all over the place of what son had in us, yet he chooses to ignore them.  Is it any wonder that I'm afraid of being beaten up by him again................in spite of missing him??????  I know what should be and could be, but it means nothing as long as I'm the only one wanting it, thinking about it and losing sleep over it. 

Son evidently chooses not to feel about the estrangement the way I do.  That does NOT mean he's right and that I should cater to his choices.  He's just more into himself than dh and I are, and THAT'S the part that may be our fault.  But that's still no reason for him to act the way he does. If he sat down and really was honest with himself, he'd know that he's made this a one-sided relationship.................he EXPECTS everything, and we're to GIVE everything if we want a relationship.  Maybe I AM reaching the conclusion that no contact would be better for me than "token" contact.  I'm already hurting tremendously, so what's a little more added pain?  Personally, although I'm realistic enough to know it will never happen, I  believe son should be ashamed of what he's done.  Without having anything remotely close to the wonderful life we gave him, I still showed so much more respect, love and caring towards my parents.......and, whether this is "just the way kids are today" or not, I don't like it and I don't feel it's right.  Those who justify and/or accept son's type of behavior because they feel this is just the way his generation chooses to live are either accepting behavior they shouldn't be accepting (as we did when we were rasing our son) OR perhaps they themselves fit into this type of  behavior towards their own parents and make themselves feel better about it by saying things are different now.  I think it's all BS.  When  a person is lucky enough to have had parents who gave their all in raising their kids, and the kids (as adults) come up with  "this generation is just different," all it is is an excuse to get away with being selfish. That inane excuse is used to make themselves feel better for not wanting to do what they know is the right thing to do.  A different life style does NOT mean you rid yourself of good parents, no matter how hard you try to justify it.  Whatever the younger generation is going through , the older generation has already been through; and they didn't use any of it to forget their parents existed.  My son has no children.  He has eight hours of  work (no long commute), and eight hours of sleep.  That leaves him eight hours five days a week and 16 hours each Sat. and Sun. to do as he pleases; so don't even begin to tell me short visits to his df and me interfere too much with his life style.  And don't begin to tell me it's all right for him to make the choices he makes; because, believe me, he would have been the first to scream bloody murder if WE had made the choices towards him that he's making towards us.  Not in a million years would he have felt we were entitled to those choices, even though he obviously feels HE'S entitled to them.  And, for what it's worth, WE wouldn't have felt we were entitled to make choices that were great for us but not for  him, excuses or no excuses.

Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 08:49:25 AM
I'm feeling anger right now.  When I feel that way, I tend to sit down and put my words on paper in order to get it out of my system. I always end up shredding it afterwards because it's so lengthy.  Just now I wrote "By now, I assume you read the email re flowers yesterday. How do you feel about it?  I'd appreciate your telling me where you feel this is going or where you'd like it to go."  I didn't forward it to son because I's likw your perspective.  Does it, too, sound negative to you?  Remember, this is a guy who refuses to  discuss ANYTHING.  Just let him go on doing what he wants and never mention it..............no talking things out, cuz that's not his style.  Yet I've heard him tell his buddies that it's healthy to talk things over.  Guess there's a different set of rules for parents.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 08:57:48 AM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 07:59:34 AM
PS- Laurie is right- that was what I was trying to say as well.  I was not born with the gene to put things as delicately as others, but it is something I am working on! :)

Oftentimes I guess I don't put things as delicately as I should either, OW.  I still don't know if I've reached a conclusion; because, from day to day, my emotions are on a roller coaster.  One day I may feel I'll cave in to anything he wants.  The next day I may feel I've taken enough; and, if he doesn't mind losing his parents, I'll teach myself not to mind losing a son.  I do wonder what he'll do if, once again he gets sick and his wife can't get off work; so he expects me to  take him to the doctor.  Would that make him swallow  his false pride?  And will I take him or will I say, "We haven't been good enough for you to  contact all this time, so ask one of your good buddies to take you."  My opinion of what I'd do changes daily, depending on which stage of the roller coaster ride I'm in.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 09:01:42 AM
Angie.. I think that all anyone is trying to say is, it would be almost impossible to have a loving relationship with your son as long as you are this angry with him and the situation.  The anger is yours to own, you have the the right to be angry, and you have the right to stay angry.  You have the right to tell him of your anger, your hurt and your frustrations and while  some of it could sink in, most may bounce off off of him because it's hard to hear someone past their anger.   
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:06:00 AM
Quote from: Laurie on March 29, 2011, 09:01:42 AM
Angie.. I think that all anyone is trying to say is, it would be almost impossible to have a loving relationship with your son as long as you are this angry with him and the situation.  The anger is yours to own, you have the the right to be angry, and you have the right to stay angry.  You have the right to tell him of your anger, your hurt and your frustrations and while  some of it could sink in, most may bounce off off of him because it's hard to hear someone past their anger.

I could  have gotten over my anger a long time  ago.  I'm angry at him now for allowing this to go on so long.  I think anything I  say would bounce off him, Laurie.................even if I bit my tongue until it bled.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:07:46 AM
Any perspectives on how my little note below sounds?

Just now I wrote "By now, I assume you read the email re flowers yesterday. How do you feel about it?  I'd appreciate your telling me where you feel this is going or where you'd like it to go." 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 09:13:03 AM
Are you asking for honest opinions, Angie?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:16:47 AM
Quote from: Laurie on March 29, 2011, 09:13:03 AM
Are you asking for honest opinions, Angie?

I don't know if I understand that question. Have I given the impression I don't want honest opinions, Laurie?  If I don't agree with them all of the time, does that leave the impression that I don't want honest opinions? 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 09:20:28 AM
No I'm not trying to twist your words.. I was asking
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:21:05 AM
I do want honest opinions.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pen on March 29, 2011, 09:22:33 AM
Angie, to a non-communicator your message might sound pushy. JMHO.

I do understand why you want to hash this out with DS! You're a talker, you're more emotional, he's not. You want to get things settled, he's willing to let it ride as long as he can. But as others have asked, what's your objective? What approach will help you meet that objective?

I'm a big believer in the power of the "thinking of you, hope all is well" message - no pressure, no response required, but letting the other party know you're still there for them.

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:25:20 AM
Quote from: Pen on March 29, 2011, 09:22:33 AM
Angie, to a non-communicator your message might sound pushy. JMHO.

I do understand why you want to hash this out with DS! You're a talker, you're more emotional, he's not. You want to get things settled, he's willing to let it ride as long as he can. But as others have asked, what's your objective? What approach will help you meet that objective?

I'm a big believer in the power of the "thinking of you, hope all is well" message - no pressure, no response required, but letting the other party know you're still there for them.


But does that sound appropriate followed on the heels of yesterday's email, Pen?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:28:38 AM
Quote from: Pen on March 29, 2011, 09:22:33 AM
Angie, to a non-communicator your message might sound pushy. JMHO.

I do understand why you want to hash this out with DS! You're a talker, you're more emotional, he's not. You want to get things settled, he's willing to let it ride as long as he can. But as others have asked, what's your objective? What approach will help you meet that objective?

I'm a big believer in the power of the "thinking of you, hope all is well" message - no pressure, no response required, but letting the other party know you're still there for them.


Oooops.  My objective.  I want this over with.  I'm tired of living in limbo, wondering from day to day where we're headed.  Trouble is, at this point, dh has about given up and is enjoying the distance from what he perceives as an unnecessary, toxic personality from son.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 09:35:07 AM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:07:46 AM
Any perspectives on how my little note below sounds?

Just now I wrote "By now, I assume you read the email re flowers yesterday. How do you feel about it?  I'd appreciate your telling me where you feel this is going or where you'd like it to go."

Once again JMHO.. if I received this after the messages saying to basically keep your flower, we don't want flowers, we want you... I would be taken back if my original intentions were honest.. I would still be reeling from the email yesterday and I would take this to mean that you were gunning for a showdown.  I do not think that I would meet this note with anything but 100% resistance.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 09:36:24 AM
Angie, I'm not always the best with words and am often considered very blunt, so I'm going to do my best with this. :-)

You stated that DS basically has 72 hours a week of "free" time and that he should spend some of that visiting you and your DH. In a "perfect" world, he would visit you.

But in the real world, Parents sacrifice for their children. When their children become adults, they eventually become (not always I know) parents of their own and sacrifice for their children and so on and so on. Your "repayment" as a parent is never going to happen. Someday maybe your DS will have a child and your "repayment" will go to your GK.

Yes, you sacrificed for your DS, BUT that was your decision. He did not choose to be born or to have this and that given to him to make his life easier. YOU chose to do that. I'm sorry that your DS is going through this phase, but he doesn't "owe you." If you make the choice to do something for someone, you can't turn around and "charge" them for it.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:36:49 AM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:28:38 AM
Quote from: Pen on March 29, 2011, 09:22:33 AM
Angie, to a non-communicator your message might sound pushy. JMHO.

I do understand why you want to hash this out with DS! You're a talker, you're more emotional, he's not. You want to get things settled, he's willing to let it ride as long as he can. But as others have asked, what's your objective? What approach will help you meet that objective?

I'm a big believer in the power of the "thinking of you, hope all is well" message - no pressure, no response required, but letting the other party know you're still there for them.


Oooops.  My objective.  I want this over with.  I'm tired of living in limbo, wondering from day to day where we're headed.  Trouble is, at this point, dh has about given up and is enjoying the distance from what he perceives as an unnecessary, toxic personality from son.

Edited to add:  DH's not wrong.  I should feel the same way he does because he's right.  But dh is able to "let go" easier than I can.  DH feels, if you've given your all, right up  to and including a child's adulthood, and that child is still able to lash out and step all over  you, it's time to call it quits.  He hurts because he sees me hurting, and he sees me hurting over a little ripple that son turned into a tsunami.  Hubby reminds himself and me of all we overlook to keep peace and how son chooses not to overlook anything but instead chooses to argue in the same manner a second-grader would argue.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on March 29, 2011, 09:42:12 AM
You can not begin letting  go if you keep e-mailing him about those flowers. JMHO.

You're keeping the game going. You're adding to it, making it more  complex and making yourself hurt even more. You are expecting a reaction out of him that he may not be capable of. I imagine both you and him are hurting. E-mails like that prolong the hurt, they don't take it away or fix things.

My take:

1.) He read your  e-mail and will heed your warning to cease all flower sending and e-mail communication; you can let go. You won't be reminded that he sent  flowers but  didn't come.

2.) Or, if you want a possible relationship with him, just apologize and leave that door open for him to one day change. He may not accelerate the change at the speed you'd like him to, but  he may eventually change. You can begin letting  go, and not  wonder whether you made a terrible situation even worse.

Have you read Irenic's latest posting? It's food  for thought, and she likely knows exactly how you feel.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 09:36:24 AM
Angie, I'm not always the best with words and am often considered very blunt, so I'm going to do my best with this. :-)

You stated that DS basically has 72 hours a week of "free" time and that he should spend some of that visiting you and your DH. In a "perfect" world, he would visit you.

But in the real world, Parents sacrifice for their children. When their children become adults, they eventually become (not always I know) parents of their own and sacrifice for their children and so on and so on. Your "repayment" as a parent is never going to happen. Someday maybe your DS will have a child and your "repayment" will go to your GK.

Yes, you sacrificed for your DS, BUT that was your decision. He did not choose to be born or to have this and that given to him to make his life easier. YOU chose to do that. I'm sorry that your DS is going through this phase, but he doesn't "owe you." If you make the choice to do something for someone, you can't turn around and "charge" them for it.

He"ll never have children, Anonymous.  He doesn't want them. We don't expect to be repaid for "spoiling" him, but we don't consider a short visit every couple of weeks as falling into the category of "repayment."  He's told us he can't stand even a short time of visiting with us and doing nothing but talking.  He'd rather be out doing sports. That hurt............a lot!   I don't want the visits because he owes them to me.  I  want them because I'd like to know we mean something to him..........something that can't be conveyed with flowers and lack of presence.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: lancaster lady on March 29, 2011, 09:47:35 AM
Angie ;

I wouldnt have sent the first email , a thankyou would have been sufficient .
you are trying to force a face off , is this how you want your son to meet you ?
you can't force anyone to meet you , even your son .
With respect , I don't think he wants to see you , as he knows you will rake over old grounds again .
Maybe he doesn't want another argument . Start as you wish to go on , a clean slate .
just my honest opinion with no malice intended , but your second email sounds a bit hostile to me .
A ''Can we start Again '' type email would be more appropriate .
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:50:07 AM
Quote from: holliberri on March 29, 2011, 09:42:12 AM
You can not begin letting  go if you keep e-mailing him about those flowers. JMHO.

You're keeping the game going. You're adding to it, making it more  complex and making yourself hurt even more. You are expecting a reaction out of him that he may not be capable of. I imagine both you and him are hurting. E-mails like that prolong the hurt, they don't take it away or fix things.

My take:

1.) He read your  e-mail and will heed your warning to cease all flower sending and e-mail communication; you can let go. You won't be reminded that he sent  flowers but  didn't come.

2.) Or, if you want a possible relationship with him, just apologize and leave that door open for him to one day change. He may not accelerate the change at the speed you'd like him to, but  he may eventually change. You can begin letting  go, and not  wonder whether you made a terrible situation even worse.

Have you read Irenic's latest posting? It's food  for thought, and she likely knows exactly how you feel.

Is Irenic's post somewhere in this thread or in another thread, because the name doesn't sound familiar.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:51:52 AM
Forget that last messge.  I see Irenic's name and will go back to read the poem.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: free_at_last on March 29, 2011, 09:52:03 AM
As the wife of a man who completely cut his family off, I would strongly encourage you not to send that message.  You have already let him know that you rejected his email and flowers because it isn't what you want from him.  I don't see how anything good can come from sending this second message.  He has made it clear that he isn't ready to give you anything more that what he is giving you now, if you push the issue you are only going to push him away.  If that is your objective, then, yes, go ahead and send it, but if you do be prepared that he may not respond to it or anything else for a very long time, if ever.  You already let him know how you feel with your message yesterday, IMO the only way to NOT make it worse now is to send a genuine apology and thank him for the flowers and good wishes and leave it go at that.  If you can't do that then at the very least don't send the second email pushing for a confrontation when he obviously doesn't want one....he will just withdraw more.  I don't post often but this second email you are considering sending is just all too familiar, I have seen how easily it can escalate into a full blown cut off. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 09:56:20 AM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
He's told us he can't stand even a short time of visiting with us and doing nothing but talking.  He'd rather be out doing sports. That hurt............a lot! 

I don't know you personally (like your health, physical capabilites, etc.). But what if you arange to go miniature golfing with DS? Or Bowling? Or hiking? Anything with an activity so there isn't the "need" to talk the entire time. Some people (especially men) really just don't like to talk.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 09:58:16 AM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:45:01 AM

He"ll never have children, Anonymous.  He doesn't want them. We don't expect to be repaid for "spoiling" him, but we don't consider a short visit every couple of weeks as falling into the category of "repayment."  He's told us he can't stand even a short time of visiting with us and doing nothing but talking.  He'd rather be out doing sports. That hurt............a lot!   I don't want the visits because he owes them to me.  I  want them because I'd like to know we mean something to him..........something that can't be conveyed with flowers and lack of presence.

What you "don't consider" as adequate time every couple of weeks is not something he agrees with.  You are both entitled to your opinions as individuals and to spend your time the way you decide to spend your time.  You are each entitled to that, but you can't go about dictating what is enough for BOTH of you and what isn't because there are 2 people involved in this with two different mindsets.  Obviously he believes sending flowers conveys that you mean something to him, otherwise he wouldn't be sending them.  It CAN be conveyed if you don't put limits on how he is "expected" to show you he's thinking about you.  Again, just because it means "nothing" to you doesn't mean you should discredit the effort as crumbs.  Every couple of weeks is a lot for some people who have a lot going on in their life.  Calculating out the free time he has for himself in order to give an expectation of how much of that should be allotted toward you is not fair to either of you.  Someone could calculate my "free time" based on how much I work but they'd be dead wrong.  A lot of that "free time" is spent running errands, upkeep on the house, things that I need to do in my life.  Then there are things I need to do to decompress from all of those things- whether it be to relax and lay at home or go to the gym.  That leaves a lot less "free time" for someone to go about expecting of me.

Please please please open your mind up to these things.  Think about all these expectations you have for him and how that is fair to either of you.  You can't have a mutual relationship based on all of someone else's expectations of what is good enough- demanding certain levels of communication and throwing the rest back in their face. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 10:06:39 AM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 09:58:16 AM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:45:01 AM

A lot of that "free time" is spent running errands, upkeep on the house, things that I need to do in my life.  Then there are things I need to do to decompress from all of those things- whether it be to relax and lay at home or go to the gym.  That leaves a lot less "free time" for someone to go about expecting of me.


I spent 2 HOURS in the bathtub this weekend. :-) Much needed relaxation after spending the entire day cleaning the house. The laundry still isn't finished.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 10:19:49 AM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 09:56:20 AM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
He's told us he can't stand even a short time of visiting with us and doing nothing but talking.  He'd rather be out doing sports. That hurt............a lot! 

I don't know you personally (like your health, physical capabilites, etc.). But what if you arange to go miniature golfing with DS? Or Bowling? Or hiking? Anything with an activity so there isn't the "need" to talk the entire time. Some people (especially men) really just don't like to talk.


He'd love to go hiking.  Does it matter that I wouldn't?  The last time we hiked, all of us were covered with ticks (from which he's caught Lyme disease twice); and I pushed myself up a steep trail, just to make him happy.  The other things wouldn't appeal to him at all. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 10:21:07 AM
Yes, ADIL- I feel you there!  We went to a double feature on Sunday because we spent all day Saturday working out in the yard and needed a break- and I've got a pile of clothes that need to be folded and put away that I just can't find the time to do between everything else!  Free time is hardly EVER free time when you're living on your own as an adult!  There's always something that needs done...unfortunately... :(  I miss being in school and not having these dang chores!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 10:24:25 AM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 10:19:49 AM
He'd love to go hiking.  Does it matter that I wouldn't?  The last time we hiked, all of us were covered with ticks (from which he's caught Lyme disease twice); and I pushed myself up a steep trail, just to make him happy.  The other things wouldn't appeal to him at all.

Then do something other than hiking.... You need to make a move if you want him in your life. Passive agressive "flowers are good enough you must visit" isn't going to get him back in your life. So the question remains. Do you really want a relationship with him or not?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 10:29:09 AM
Try Geocaching. It's outdoorsy and your DS would probably like it, but it doesn't have to be in the woods so no ticks! :-) Plus it is a blast. check it out www.geocaching.com
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 10:32:28 AM
Quote from: holliberri on March 29, 2011, 09:42:12 AM

Have you read Irenic's latest posting? It's food  for thought, and she likely knows exactly how you feel.


Irenic's poem sounds like she feels she did lots of things wrong and that she was to blame for the separation.  Was she really, or did she feel that taking the blame for everything was the only way she could get her daughter's attention and renew the relationship?  I don't feel I'm to blame, nor does my dh.  I'll take the blame for the poor choice of words in my emails, but neither dh nor I will take the blame for what caused the estrangement initially.
I think Irenic is very brave, but I refuse to take the blame for something I didn't create.  The most I'll do, if I do anything at all, is say, "I spoke before I thought when that email was shot off yesterday.   I didn't mean it in a cruel way but realize now it can be interpreted in that way.  Thank you for the flowers.  They're beautiful.  Love, Mom" But I'm gonna mull things over before I send an email.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: holliberri on March 29, 2011, 10:36:10 AM
Whoa,

I'm not going to dissect and compare Irenic's post or why she did what she did.

I was only highlighting just how far apologies can go.

Best of luck. I hope you get precisely what you seem to be looking for. I don't think I can add anything else productive. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 10:38:33 AM
Quote from: holliberri on March 29, 2011, 10:36:10 AM
Whoa,

I'm not going to dissect and compare Irenic's post or why she did what she did.

I was only highlighting just how far apologies can go.

Best of luck. I hope you get precisely what you seem to be looking for. I don't think I can add anything else productive.


That's okay, holliberri.  I anticipated this sort of reaction would come from someone.  Nice to have met you though.
Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 10:47:09 AM
So, you have done absolutely nothing in your relationship with DS to apologize for, he is just being "something that would get me edited by Luise LOL" and needs to come around to your way on this with you not giving at all?

Since you are unwilling to compromise, it seems obvious that you don't really want a relationship with your DS any more or you would try to understand why it is that he is behaving the way that he is and find how you need to change to fit into this new relationship. He is not a little boy anymore. He is a man. New stage of life means new dynamics for a relationship. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 10:49:16 AM
Angie,

Relationship problems are rarely caused by only one party.  Usually both sides contribute to the problem, so each party has to own their actions.

I'm going to tell you what I think and it will be your choice whether or not to take it to heart.  I first want to tell you that I have become very involved in this thread because I see a lot happening that I know could have been prevented in my own situation, and I know how painful the cut off has been for me.  I hate to see another family go through it if it can be prevented.

You said in your original post:
QuoteIn the past, I've mentioned how much I'd love to see more of them, since they live only 15 minutes from us; but, each time I mention it, he's jumped all over me and then stops speaking to us.   I would give in by getting in touch with him, so that we could be on speaking terms again.

This past Mother's Day while dining at a restaurant, I asked him, quietly and nicely, if he could find the time to come see us once a week or once every other week. He sizzled with anger. He told me I had just ruined another holiday by bringing up "visits." I asked him if he knew how heartless he was being. He made the most horrible,wicked "grinning" face and shook his head, "Yes!" I was taken aback by this blunt display of cruelty and said, "You mean you agree that you're being heartless?" Again, he made the horrible, wicked, "grinning" face and nodded "Yes." He followed that up with "And I'm not gonna spend the rest of the day with you. I'm going home from here."

Did he react immaturely?  Yes.  But what I saw in that post was a man that kept trying to tell you that he did not appreciate you bringing up visits as often as you did.  He clearly did not like it because you say everytime you did it (which indicated this was an ongoing thing that you brought up), he showed you he was not comfortable with it by backing off.  But you kept doing it.  And he kept showing you in his non-confrontational way that he didn't like it.  You were saying, "come on more," and he was saying, "Please stop bringing this up."  Verbally or nonverbally, this is what happened.  And instead of heeding to his attempts at showing you he did not appreciate this, you kept at it.  On Mother's Day, it sounds like he finally snapped because he had been trying and trying and trying to show you he doesn't like it when you bring this up, and you insisted.  So he snapped.  Should he have reacted that way?  Of course not.  But I feel like he had tried showing you he was not willing to tolerate that kind of relationship by giving you indications whenever your proceeded with the behavior and you kept at it, then he finally reached his breaking point.

It is okay to WANT to see your children more, I think every parent wants that.  But the way you went about it was clearly something he did not want to participate in.  Right or wrong in your own eyes, he made it clear he didn't want you to ask him this and you did anyway.  That led up to the "estrangement."  (I hesitate to call it that because it's not yet- you have the power to change it back)  You both could have done things differently leading up to this point and since you can't control the actions of others, all you can do is own your own actions.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 11:02:48 AM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 10:38:33 AM
Quote from: holliberri on March 29, 2011, 10:36:10 AM
Whoa,

I'm not going to dissect and compare Irenic's post or why she did what she did.

I was only highlighting just how far apologies can go.

Best of luck. I hope you get precisely what you seem to be looking for. I don't think I can add anything else productive.


That's okay, holliberri.  I anticipated this sort of reaction would come from someone.  Nice to have met you though.
Angie
Holli.. I think your help was just dismissed.  I understood what you were trying to say concerning Irenic's posting, and I thought it was a good suggestion on your part... and no you took nothing away from what Irenic had said.

Good luck to you Angie be sure to buckle up tight.. roller coasters are known to be hellacious rides.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 11:16:57 AM
Quote from: Laurie on March 29, 2011, 11:02:48 AM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 10:38:33 AM
Quote from: holliberri on March 29, 2011, 10:36:10 AM
Whoa,

I'm not going to dissect and compare Irenic's post or why she did what she did.

I was only highlighting just how far apologies can go.

Best of luck. I hope you get precisely what you seem to be looking for. I don't think I can add anything else productive.


That's okay, holliberri.  I anticipated this sort of reaction would come from someone.  Nice to have met you though.
Angie
Holli.. I think your help was just dismissed.  I understood what you were trying to say concerning Irenic's posting, and I thought it was a good suggestion on your part... and no you took nothing away from what Irenic had said.

Good luck to you Angie be sure to buckle up tight.. roller coasters are known to be hellacious rides.

I didn't dismiss holliberri, Laurie.  I thought she was saying it would be her last post to me, and I was just trying to let her know that I accept that and that it was nice to have met her. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 11:20:43 AM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 10:47:09 AM
So, you have done absolutely nothing in your relationship with DS to apologize for, he is just being "something that would get me edited by Luise LOL" and needs to come around to your way on this with you not giving at all?

Since you are unwilling to compromise, it seems obvious that you don't really want a relationship with your DS any more or you would try to understand why it is that he is behaving the way that he is and find how you need to change to fit into this new relationship. He is not a little boy anymore. He is a man. New stage of life means new dynamics for a relationship.


No one's perfect; so, yes, there have been things I've apologized for.  I do think son carried the Mother's Day thing way over the norm though.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 11:26:28 AM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 10:49:16 AM
Angie,

Relationship problems are rarely caused by only one party.  Usually both sides contribute to the problem, so each party has to own their actions.

I'm going to tell you what I think and it will be your choice whether or not to take it to heart.  I first want to tell you that I have become very involved in this thread because I see a lot happening that I know could have been prevented in my own situation, and I know how painful the cut off has been for me.  I hate to see another family go through it if it can be prevented.

You said in your original post:
QuoteIn the past, I've mentioned how much I'd love to see more of them, since they live only 15 minutes from us; but, each time I mention it, he's jumped all over me and then stops speaking to us.   I would give in by getting in touch with him, so that we could be on speaking terms again.

This past Mother's Day while dining at a restaurant, I asked him, quietly and nicely, if he could find the time to come see us once a week or once every other week. He sizzled with anger. He told me I had just ruined another holiday by bringing up "visits." I asked him if he knew how heartless he was being. He made the most horrible,wicked "grinning" face and shook his head, "Yes!" I was taken aback by this blunt display of cruelty and said, "You mean you agree that you're being heartless?" Again, he made the horrible, wicked, "grinning" face and nodded "Yes." He followed that up with "And I'm not gonna spend the rest of the day with you. I'm going home from here."

Did he react immaturely?  Yes.  But what I saw in that post was a man that kept trying to tell you that he did not appreciate you bringing up visits as often as you did.  He clearly did not like it because you say everytime you did it (which indicated this was an ongoing thing that you brought up), he showed you he was not comfortable with it by backing off.  But you kept doing it.  And he kept showing you in his non-confrontational way that he didn't like it.  You were saying, "come on more," and he was saying, "Please stop bringing this up."  Verbally or nonverbally, this is what happened.  And instead of heeding to his attempts at showing you he did not appreciate this, you kept at it.  On Mother's Day, it sounds like he finally snapped because he had been trying and trying and trying to show you he doesn't like it when you bring this up, and you insisted.  So he snapped.  Should he have reacted that way?  Of course not.  But I feel like he had tried showing you he was not willing to tolerate that kind of relationship by giving you indications whenever your proceeded with the behavior and you kept at it, then he finally reached his breaking point.

It is okay to WANT to see your children more, I think every parent wants that.  But the way you went about it was clearly something he did not want to participate in.  Right or wrong in your own eyes, he made it clear he didn't want you to ask him this and you did anyway.  That led up to the "estrangement."  (I hesitate to call it that because it's not yet- you have the power to change it back)  You both could have done things differently leading up to this point and since you can't control the actions of others, all you can do is own your own actions.

I just sent an email to son which read:
I spoke before I thought when that email was shot off yesterday.   I didn't mean it in a cruel way but realize now it can be interpreted in that way...............just one of the reasons I dislike email.  No facial expressions to see, no tone of voice to hear.  It was meant to convey that seeing you would be nice.  Sorry about the tone or impression it may have given.  Words aren't always easy to find.

Although we've been going out quite a bit with friends despite it, we're hating this weather and can't wait for it to warm up and stay that way.

BTW, we lost ____; and I miss her terribly.  It still feels so unreal to me.

Hope you're both doing well.

Love, Mom

That was the best I could do  right now.  Thanks for your response, OW.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 11:28:13 AM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 10:29:09 AM
Try Geocaching. It's outdoorsy and your DS would probably like it, but it doesn't have to be in the woods so no ticks! :-) Plus it is a blast. check it out www.geocaching.com


We have Wii; and, although he enjoyed it once when he was here, he hasn't mentioned it since.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: lancaster lady on March 29, 2011, 11:31:21 AM
angie :

hope he responds well to your email , and we did make sense after all , good luck .
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Scoop on March 29, 2011, 11:57:18 AM
Angie, I loved your message.  I think it was real and honest, without being snarky.  Although I'm sure a snarky message would have been more satisfying in the short term, I think you would have regretted it.

In reviewing this whole thread, something else occurred to me, if your DS doesn't have kids, then he doesn't *know* what it means to be a parent.  I remember before I got pregnant with DD, how Motherhood seemed like this secret society and there was only one way to gain membership.  I could *think* about parenting, but there's no way I could *KNOW* about it, without experiencing it.  I know that I learned so much about my Mom when I became a Mom.   And again, there's is NO WAY to know or learn that, without actually becoming  a parent and having that feeling of your heart walking around outside your body.

Do you see that this is something he*CAN'T* know, not something he refuses to see?  Hopefully this will help you realize that this is not an intentional slight to you.

Also, when his friends have to spend time with their kids, you can bet your (swinging bachelor) son is thinking "SUCKER - too bad about your spawn, more beer for me!".  If you go and look up the childfree stuff, you'll see how they feel about kids and parenting.

As for his 72 hours a week of free time.  Out of this time, he has to clean (ahem), go to the gym, go tanning (why am I thinking he should be on Jersey Shore?), cook food, clean up the food, laundry, Monday-night Sport, Tuesday-night Sport, Wednesday night is pub night, Sat & Sun he likes to sleep in, Saturday-afternoon Sport, Saturday-evening recap of the afternoon (at the bar), ect.  This swinging bachelor lifestyle is BUSY!  And never mind after all that, he wants time to unwind too!  And I'm sure his wife has some demands on his time too.

Okay, in the past, you've tried being the Coyote, now it's time for you to try being the Road Runner.  Let HIM decide when he speaks to you next.  Be patient.  Be more patient!  How can he miss you if you don't give him some space?

Good luck - I'm so glad you took the high road!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 12:22:09 PM
Quote from: Scoop on March 29, 2011, 11:57:18 AM
Angie, I loved your message.  I think it was real and honest, without being snarky.  Although I'm sure a snarky message would have been more satisfying in the short term, I think you would have regretted it.

In reviewing this whole thread, something else occurred to me, if your DS doesn't have kids, then he doesn't *know* what it means to be a parent.  I remember before I got pregnant with DD, how Motherhood seemed like this secret society and there was only one way to gain membership.  I could *think* about parenting, but there's no way I could *KNOW* about it, without experiencing it.  I know that I learned so much about my Mom when I became a Mom.   And again, there's is NO WAY to know or learn that, without actually becoming  a parent and having that feeling of your heart walking around outside your body.

Do you see that this is something he*CAN'T* know, not something he refuses to see?  Hopefully this will help you realize that this is not an intentional slight to you.

Also, when his friends have to spend time with their kids, you can bet your (swinging bachelor) son is thinking "SUCKER - too bad about your spawn, more beer for me!".  If you go and look up the childfree stuff, you'll see how they feel about kids and parenting.

As for his 72 hours a week of free time.  Out of this time, he has to clean (ahem), go to the gym, go tanning (why am I thinking he should be on Jersey Shore?), cook food, clean up the food, laundry, Monday-night Sport, Tuesday-night Sport, Wednesday night is pub night, Sat & Sun he likes to sleep in, Saturday-afternoon Sport, Saturday-evening recap of the afternoon (at the bar), ect.  This swinging bachelor lifestyle is BUSY!  And never mind after all that, he wants time to unwind too!  And I'm sure his wife has some demands on his time too.

Okay, in the past, you've tried being the Coyote, now it's time for you to try being the Road Runner.  Let HIM decide when he speaks to you next.  Be patient.  Be more patient!  How can he miss you if you don't give him some space?

Good luck - I'm so glad you took the high road!

Thank you for feeling my message was good, Scoop.  Funny you should mention that son can't begin to know what it means to be a parent because he's chosen never to be one.  DH and I discuss this all the time.  Our friends remind us all the time that they feel his behavior has a lot to do with not being a parent.  That's one of the reasons I feel we can't communicate properly...........because he can't begin to relate.  I have to admit I never thought that son's reaction to his friends who are weekend fathers might be "Sucker."  But there's a very good chance that you're right. 

BTW, he doesn't do much in the way of cleaning (unlike his mother......and, no, I've never said anything about it.)  They can do what they want with their house.  I don't have to live there.  He doesn't go to the gym, no tanning, cooks only occasionally as they eat out a bit, and wife makes no demands on him.   There's only one sport he's involved with; and he eats and sleeps it.........can't seem to get enough. He does that sport right after work every day and all weekend long.  In fact, he doesn't even sleep in on most weekends so he can get up early and be out most of the day engaging in that sport.  Their vacations are taken where he can still engage in that sport.  After the sporting comes the eating and drinking with the guys who also engage in that sport.  Every hour outside of work or sleep he engages in that sport......oh, except when there's snow on the ground.....then he switches to XC skiing.
I can't think of any activity I'd let take up that much of my time.  Plus I enjoy spending time doing things with dh, whereas son and dil don't seem to mind the separation to go off alone.  Again, that's none of my business.  I guess it works for them since they've been married going on 17years.

I WILL take your advice in letting him decide when/if he speaks to me next.  I do think that's the proper thing to do now.  Thanks again, Scoop.
Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 12:40:11 PM
Once a week or every other week is still too much for me to see my own parents.  Especially if they want a set schedule and implied or directly told me they expected it. 

I do think asking him to go do things is a good idea.  We have had the same issues with my in laws, where they want us over or to drop by.  TBH, it's kind of boring especially when they want it to be such a regular thing.  Finding stuff to do outside of the house is always good with me.  Sounds like your son is active in a sport, so maybe tickets to a game?  Or eat out at a restaurant that shows the game? 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 12:49:02 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 12:40:11 PM
Once a week or every other week is still too much for me to see my own parents.  Especially if they want a set schedule and implied or directly told me they expected it. 

I do think asking him to go do things is a good idea.  We have had the same issues with my in laws, where they want us over or to drop by.  TBH, it's kind of boring especially when they want it to be such a regular thing.  Finding stuff to do outside of the house is always good with me.  Sounds like your son is active in a sport, so maybe tickets to a game?  Or eat out at a restaurant that shows the game?

The sport is mountain biking, Pam.  No tickets, no game, no tv.   :)  I never asked for a set schedule.....just that it would be nice to see him for just a short time without there having to be a birthday, anniversary or holiday, which amount to only eight days out of the year, because he's crossed off the 4th, Memorial Day and Labor Day.  I guess asking for more than eight days a year is criminal.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 12:51:53 PM
To me, it comes across as you want a schedule.  Reading all your posts, that's how I would take it.  I haven't read anything where you've called him to go get a drink, watch a game or anything like that.  Just a lot of sadness and hurt that he isn't doing exactly what you want, which he's already told you he's not willing to do. 

In some families 8 days a year with extended family is pretty normal.  Others it's not. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 12:55:01 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 12:51:53 PM
To me, it comes across as you want a schedule.  Reading all your posts, that's how I would take it.  I haven't read anything where you've called him to go get a drink, watch a game or anything like that.  Just a lot of sadness and hurt that he isn't doing exactly what you want, which he's already told you he's not willing to do. 

In some families 8 days a year with extended family is pretty normal.  Others it's not.


How can we ask him to go for a drink or anything else?  He's never home and doesn't return calls.  He'd never settle for watching a game.  He's not interested........unless there happens to be a film on mountain biking.  How often does that happen on tv?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 01:00:00 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 12:51:53 PM
To me, it comes across as you want a schedule.  Reading all your posts, that's how I would take it.  I haven't read anything where you've called him to go get a drink, watch a game or anything like that.  Just a lot of sadness and hurt that he isn't doing exactly what you want, which he's already told you he's not willing to do. 

In some families 8 days a year with extended family is pretty normal.  Others it's not.


Eight days a year is not normal with anyone I know.  Far from it.  I have friends whose kids show up almost daily and call them several times a day.  That's  far more than what I'd like or want.  In fact, eight days is totally abnormal in my circle of friends. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Pooh on March 29, 2011, 01:05:26 PM
Hey Pam.  Good to see you...where you been chicko?

Angie, you are still trying to justify why you are right.  You are going to spin in circles.  My DH loves Mountain Biking.  I have become a fan of the Tour De France, sitting on the side the road watching bikes go by and watching video's on YouTube.  There are always new videos on YouTube.   I can't ride like he does, but you can bet I will make a sign and root for him.

You don't have to like what he does, but you can't fault him for liking it.  There has to be give and take if you want to have a relationship with him.  I love my kids, but expecting them to show up more than every couple, three or four months for a visit, would be pushing it for any young adult with their own lives.

I would really like to know if you want to have a relationship with him?  I asked earlier, and several others have, but you haven't honestly said what you want?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 01:14:52 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 01:00:00 PM
Eight days a year is not normal with anyone I know.  Far from it.  I have friends whose kids show up almost daily and call them several times a day.  That's  far more than what I'd like or want.  In fact, eight days is totally abnormal in my circle of friends.

8 days is normal for my mom and IL's. We are just too busy to get together more than that. I will sometimes call/text my mom but it isn't that much. She is busy too. She has a life of her own.

Showing up daily only happens in ENMESHED familes and it is EXTREMELY unhealthy. IMO
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 01:21:18 PM
Quote from: Pooh on March 29, 2011, 01:05:26 PM
Hey Pam.  Good to see you...where you been chicko?

In crazy land where nothing goes right lol.  Good to see you too :)  If I get some free time today I will start a new thread, I'm gonna need some advice. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 01:52:33 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 12:22:09 PM

BTW, he doesn't do much in the way of cleaning (unlike his mother......and, no, I've never said anything about it.)  They can do what they want with their house.  I don't have to live there.  He doesn't go to the gym, no tanning, cooks only occasionally as they eat out a bit, and wife makes no demands on him.   There's only one sport he's involved with; and he eats and sleeps it.........can't seem to get enough. He does that sport right after work every day and all weekend long.  In fact, he doesn't even sleep in on most weekends so he can get up early and be out most of the day engaging in that sport.  Their vacations are taken where he can still engage in that sport.  After the sporting comes the eating and drinking with the guys who also engage in that sport.  Every hour outside of work or sleep he engages in that sport......oh, except when there's snow on the ground.....then he switches to XC skiing.
I can't think of any activity I'd let take up that much of my time.  Plus I enjoy spending time doing things with dh, whereas son and dil don't seem to mind the separation to go off alone.  Again, that's none of my business.  I guess it works for them since they've been married going on 17years.

I WILL take your advice in letting him decide when/if he speaks to me next.  I do think that's the proper thing to do now.  Thanks again, Scoop.
Angie

Angie, I am asking this as an honest question- not meant to be snarky, but being that you only see him every so often, how do you know how he spends his every moment?  You seem to know for a fact he doesn't help to clean his house, so you know what chores he does, how often he cooks, what his wife "demands" of him in their personal life, and how many hours per week he spends on his sport.  How are you privy to all this personal information?

I would think it was great that he is so involved in a hobby that is so good for your body.  He doesn't sleep in on the weekends, he gets up early to go mountain biking- good for him!  He is taking care of his body- that is a priority for him and that is GOOD!

Also, the longer you compare what your friends tell you their children do to what your child does is going to leave you spinning in circles.  It is such a moot point to compare what other families comfort levels are.  Your friends' kids might call them or see them daily, but all that becomes irrelevant if your son isn't comfortable with that type of relationship.  8-10 times a year (I thought I read 10 times a year somewhere in your other posts) is actually fairly common and I would think a lot more of a realistic expectation.  You can deem it "criminal" and paint yourself into a victim for asking for more, but at the end of the day your son doesn't want to give it, so why force the issue?  Why not just appreciate the fact that you see him 8-10 times a year, which is a compromise in itself if you're saying he's so busy with his interests and hobbies (regardless of where he lives, because that doesn't mean he doesn't have a life outside of you)!  And just so you know, I am very close with my parents but I don't reserve Memorial Day, 4th of July, and those other "holidays" for them.  They don't get upset about it.  They known I am a grown individual with my own couple friends that I want to spend time with.  I think that's normal.  Those holidays really aren't that special...so there's no use getting so hung up on them.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 01:52:47 PM
Pam- we missed you!!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 01:58:32 PM
I think there is a song that goes with this thread... ~~~ what does make that little old ant, think he can move that rubber tree plant~~~

Oh wait OW and Adil may not be old enough to remember that song... and no Pink did not sing it
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 02:00:08 PM
HE'S GOT HIGH HOPES! HIIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHH HOPES!

LOL :-)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 02:05:36 PM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 01:52:47 PM
Pam- we missed you!!

I missed all of you guys too :)  I was having withdrawals lol
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 02:10:13 PM
Well Pam you're just in time to sing with us
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Nana on March 29, 2011, 02:11:28 PM
Welcome back Pam

Love
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 02:14:02 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 12:55:01 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 12:51:53 PM
To me, it comes across as you want a schedule.  Reading all your posts, that's how I would take it.  I haven't read anything where you've called him to go get a drink, watch a game or anything like that.  Just a lot of sadness and hurt that he isn't doing exactly what you want, which he's already told you he's not willing to do. 

In some families 8 days a year with extended family is pretty normal.  Others it's not.


How can we ask him to go for a drink or anything else?  He's never home and doesn't return calls.  He'd never settle for watching a game.  He's not interested........unless there happens to be a film on mountain biking.  How often does that happen on tv?

You're right, you can't call him up right now and ask him to go do something -- it's gone too far for that right now.  In time, it may be possible.

I think a lot of people have given you great advice in this thread.  I wish someone could have told my MIL these type of things before it got too far and we hardly see them at all anymore.  And it looks like that's really not changing any time soon (and this is according to DH, his family, his choice.)

Something DH has been saying the past month really resonates with me concerning this thread.  He feels that his mother just plain doesn't respect him as a person.  I've often thought and described her as a person who is playing tea with her dolls concerning her children.  She pulls them out of the closet when she wants, she sits them where she wants, she has them say what she wants and do what she wants.  It's a very one sided relationship and very hurtful.  (I'm not saying you're like her, I'm just noticing similarities)

Angie, you've described your son doing some pretty nice things for you.  Going out on Mothers Day -- rejected and guilt trip by voicing complaints about more visits.  Flowers - rejected and guilt trip.  It doesn't matter what your friends think or really, even what we posters think here.  It matters what your son thinks....   Do you think he finds interactions with you pleasant?
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 02:15:08 PM
Quote from: Nana on March 29, 2011, 02:11:28 PM
Welcome back Pam

Love

Thank you :)

Are you suuuuuuure you want me to sing?  I'm already tone deaf and currently really deaf in one ear lol.  Maybe now is the time to try out for American Idol, I think I might be too old though lol
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 02:20:37 PM

it is EXTREMELY unhealthy. IMO
[/quote]

It is????  I don't see THEM here asking for advice.

Gotta go for now.  I'm having trouble with my dang computer and have to  try to figure out what happened, if I can. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 02:54:22 PM
Quote from: Pooh on March 29, 2011, 01:05:26 PM
Hey Pam.  Good to see you...where you been chicko?

Angie, you are still trying to justify why you are right.  You are going to spin in circles.  My DH loves Mountain Biking.  I have become a fan of the Tour De France, sitting on the side the road watching bikes go by and watching video's on YouTube.  There are always new videos on YouTube.   I can't ride like he does, but you can bet I will make a sign and root for him.

You don't have to like what he does, but you can't fault him for liking it.  There has to be give and take if you want to have a relationship with him.  I love my kids, but expecting them to show up more than every couple, three or four months for a visit, would be pushing it for any young adult with their own lives.

I would really like to know if you want to have a relationship with him?  I asked earlier, and several others have, but you haven't honestly said what you want?

I never said I don't like what he does. As a matter of fact, I'm glad he feels exercising is important.  I just wish he could tear himsef away for short visits now and then.

Yes, I  would love to have a relationship with him.  I think I've reiterated that several times.  What I want is for us to like each other and to enjoy each other's company
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 02:59:41 PM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 01:52:33 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 12:22:09 PM

BTW, he doesn't do much in the way of cleaning (unlike his mother......and, no, I've never said anything about it.)  They can do what they want with their house.  I don't have to live there.  He doesn't go to the gym, no tanning, cooks only occasionally as they eat out a bit, and wife makes no demands on him.   There's only one sport he's involved with; and he eats and sleeps it.........can't seem to get enough. He does that sport right after work every day and all weekend long.  In fact, he doesn't even sleep in on most weekends so he can get up early and be out most of the day engaging in that sport.  Their vacations are taken where he can still engage in that sport.  After the sporting comes the eating and drinking with the guys who also engage in that sport.  Every hour outside of work or sleep he engages in that sport......oh, except when there's snow on the ground.....then he switches to XC skiing.
I can't think of any activity I'd let take up that much of my time.  Plus I enjoy spending time doing things with dh, whereas son and dil don't seem to mind the separation to go off alone.  Again, that's none of my business.  I guess it works for them since they've been married going on 17years.

I WILL take your advice in letting him decide when/if he speaks to me next.  I do think that's the proper thing to do now.  Thanks again, Scoop.
Angie

Angie, I am asking this as an honest question- not meant to be snarky, but being that you only see him every so often, how do you know how he spends his every moment?  You seem to know for a fact he doesn't help to clean his house, so you know what chores he does, how often he cooks, what his wife "demands" of him in their personal life, and how many hours per week he spends on his sport.  How are you privy to all this personal information?

I would think it was great that he is so involved in a hobby that is so good for your body.  He doesn't sleep in on the weekends, he gets up early to go mountain biking- good for him!  He is taking care of his body- that is a priority for him and that is GOOD!

Also, the longer you compare what your friends tell you their children do to what your child does is going to leave you spinning in circles.  It is such a moot point to compare what other families comfort levels are.  Your friends' kids might call them or see them daily, but all that becomes irrelevant if your son isn't comfortable with that type of relationship.  8-10 times a year (I thought I read 10 times a year somewhere in your other posts) is actually fairly common and I would think a lot more of a realistic expectation.  You can deem it "criminal" and paint yourself into a victim for asking for more, but at the end of the day your son doesn't want to give it, so why force the issue?  Why not just appreciate the fact that you see him 8-10 times a year, which is a compromise in itself if you're saying he's so busy with his interests and hobbies (regardless of where he lives, because that doesn't mean he doesn't have a life outside of you)!  And just so you know, I am very close with my parents but I don't reserve Memorial Day, 4th of July, and those other "holidays" for them.  They don't get upset about it.  They known I am a grown individual with my own couple friends that I want to spend time with.  I think that's normal.  Those holidays really aren't that special...so there's no use getting so hung up on them.

I have a very reliable source re what he does, and I know you won't mind if I choose not to reveal what or who it is.

I do think it's great that he loves to exercise.  Just wish he'd make a few minutes here and there to see mom and dad.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 03:04:30 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 02:14:02 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 12:55:01 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 12:51:53 PM
To me, it comes across as you want a schedule.  Reading all your posts, that's how I would take it.  I haven't read anything where you've called him to go get a drink, watch a game or anything like that.  Just a lot of sadness and hurt that he isn't doing exactly what you want, which he's already told you he's not willing to do. 

In some families 8 days a year with extended family is pretty normal.  Others it's not.


How can we ask him to go for a drink or anything else?  He's never home and doesn't return calls.  He'd never settle for watching a game.  He's not interested........unless there happens to be a film on mountain biking.  How often does that happen on tv?

You're right, you can't call him up right now and ask him to go do something -- it's gone too far for that right now.  In time, it may be possible.

I think a lot of people have given you great advice in this thread.  I wish someone could have told my MIL these type of things before it got too far and we hardly see them at all anymore.  And it looks like that's really not changing any time soon (and this is according to DH, his family, his choice.)

Something DH has been saying the past month really resonates with me concerning this thread.  He feels that his mother just plain doesn't respect him as a person.  I've often thought and described her as a person who is playing tea with her dolls concerning her children.  She pulls them out of the closet when she wants, she sits them where she wants, she has them say what she wants and do what she wants.  It's a very one sided relationship and very hurtful.  (I'm not saying you're like her, I'm just noticing similarities)

Angie, you've described your son doing some pretty nice things for you.  Going out on Mothers Day -- rejected and guilt trip by voicing complaints about more visits.  Flowers - rejected and guilt trip.  It doesn't matter what your friends think or really, even what we posters think here.  It matters what your son thinks....   Do you think he finds interactions with you pleasant?

I think you'd have to ask HIM that last question, because he's never said anything to me about whether he finds me pleasant or not.  I find it interesting that, in another thread, someone told me it's never just one side that's guilty  (not verbatim), yet here you are putting all the blame for your situation on your MIL.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 03:11:58 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 02:59:41 PM
I have a very reliable source re what he does, and I know you won't mind if I choose not to reveal what or who it is.

I do think it's great that he loves to exercise.  Just wish he'd make a few minutes here and there to see mom and dad.

Um.... CREEPY.... Who or Whatever you source is sounds like it is an invasion of your son's privacy....oh, and your DIL's. Not allowing a grown adult their privacy is just disrespectful. You really need to let your son have his space.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 03:13:54 PM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 03:11:58 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 02:59:41 PM
I have a very reliable source re what he does, and I know you won't mind if I choose not to reveal what or who it is.

I do think it's great that he loves to exercise.  Just wish he'd make a few minutes here and there to see mom and dad.

Um.... CREEPY.... Who or Whatever you source is sounds like it is an invasion of your son's privacy....oh, and your DIL's. Not allowing a grown adult their privacy is just disrespectful. You really need to let your son have his space.


He does have his own space.  And I won't go into further detail about it.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 03:24:21 PM
Angie... what are you looking for here?  You've spend an entire day justifying your stance... you're right, your son is awful, hateful and toxic.. you had every right to blast his butt over having the audacity to send you flowers instead of hand delivering them... He will never put you above his beloved sport of biking, his sport means more to him then his own family does.  He will never call you everyday because he does not care enough to.. he probably received your email and felt that all his thoughts and feelings have been confirmed.  He will continue to make hideous faces at you because he never matured into an adult who understands relationships.  As long as his wife plays the human vise for him in the garage he has a place for her, but if she makes any demands on his time he will most likely cut her out of his life too.. she may not even get the flowers.. he only sent them to you because you've reminded him daily that you did after all give birth to him.

There is no way I would waste my breath or  time to ever apologize to him, your behavior has been justified, we will all vouch for that.. the second email you sent today will probably never be read because toxic self-centered spoiled rotten brats simply don't care. I do not see where you went wrong.. where you can change any of this, where you got anything more then the shaft from a son that you gave everything to.  With this support, go forward and live your life with your husband.. there is a lot of life left.. why waste it on someone like him.  Let the strangers have the rest of him, you don't need this in your life.. I wish you well in your journey...
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 03:26:28 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 02:59:41 PM

I have a very reliable source re what he does, and I know you won't mind if I choose not to reveal what or who it is.

I do think it's great that he loves to exercise.  Just wish he'd make a few minutes here and there to see mom and dad.

Well I'm not even going to go into this whole "reliable source" thing because...well just because.

But the point is....he DID make a "few minutes here and there to see mom and dad."  I think I remember you saying before you saw him 10 times a year.  That IS making a few minutes here and there to see you- that obviously was NOT good enough for you.  You're saying that's all you want, and that's what he gave- wasn't good enough for you.  That's why you kept hounding him and he kept pushing back.  And now you are where you're at now.  Being grateful for the time you spend together or the interactions you do have instead of focusing on the time you don't get to spend together can change the entire dynamic of a relationship.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 03:29:25 PM
Quote from: Laurie on March 29, 2011, 03:24:21 PM
Angie... what are you looking for here?  You've spend an entire day justifying your stance... you're right, your son is awful, hateful and toxic.. you had every right to blast his butt over having the audacity to send you flowers instead of hand delivering them... He will never put you above his beloved sport of biking, his sport means more to him then his own family does.  He will never call you everyday because he does not care enough to.. he probably received your email and felt that all his thoughts and feelings have been confirmed.  He will continue to make hideous faces at you because he never matured into an adult who understands relationships.  As long as his wife plays the human vise for him in the garage he has a place for her, but if she makes any demands on his time he will most likely cut her out of his life too.. she may not even get the flowers.. he only sent them to you because you've reminded him daily that you did after all give birth to him.

There is no way I would waste my breath or  time to ever apologize to him, your behavior has been justified, we will all vouch for that.. the second email you sent today will probably never be read because toxic self-centered spoiled rotten brats simply don't care. I do not see where you went wrong.. where you can change any of this, where you got anything more then the shaft from a son that you gave everything to.  With this support, go forward and live your life with your husband.. there is a lot of life left.. why waste it on someone like him.  Let the strangers have the rest of him, you don't need this in your life.. I wish you well in your journey...

I've used this same psychology on someone, Laurie.  They didn't get it, but I do.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 03:33:01 PM
Quote from: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 02:00:08 PM
HE'S GOT HIGH HOPES! HIIIIIIIGGGGGGHHHHH HOPES!

LOL :-)

I'm ashamed...I'm not as good as ADIL...I had to look up the lyrics to understand. :(
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: AnonymousDIL on March 29, 2011, 03:34:20 PM
Thanks to Nick at Nite's showings of Laverne and Shirley LOL
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 03:36:11 PM
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 03:26:28 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 02:59:41 PM

I have a very reliable source re what he does, and I know you won't mind if I choose not to reveal what or who it is.

I do think it's great that he loves to exercise.  Just wish he'd make a few minutes here and there to see mom and dad.

Well I'm not even going to go into this whole "reliable source" thing because...well just because.

But the point is....he DID make a "few minutes here and there to see mom and dad."  I think I remember you saying before you saw him 10 times a year.  That IS making a few minutes here and there to see you- that obviously was NOT good enough for you.  You're saying that's all you want, and that's what he gave- wasn't good enough for you.  That's why you kept hounding him and he kept pushing back.  And now you are where you're at now.  Being grateful for the time you spend together or the interactions you do have instead of focusing on the time you don't get to spend together can change the entire dynamic of a relationship.

Is it possible that so many of you jumped to the same conclusion at the same time, or is it more likely that, when one person kicks someone, the others make sure they get a turn at kicking too?  You're right.  I wanted to see more of my only child.  Not every day........just more.  Ya know, there just might be something you'd think isn't right about your children but I'D think it was just fine.  But ya know what I wouldn't do?  I  wouldn't try to purposely make you feel as though you're a very bad person for it, just because we might not agree about it. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 03:50:20 PM
You are not a bad person.. no one here said you were... your son is the only one who was labeled as being 'bad'.. thoughtless hateful and all those  other ways you described him.  I mean how can you two spend time together when you don't even like who he has become.  Has he said in many actions that he doesn't like you, or want to spend time with you... you're old and boring and do old people things.  I don't see what there is about him that you still like.  So now that you've let him know that you do not appreciate him or his gestures what is left to do.  I mean really do you want a person in your life who is like this? Who thinks so very little of you? Who would rather hang with strangers then his own parents?  I'd lay my head down every night and thank my lucky stars that I didn't have to see my grown adult son making ugly faces at me in an attempt to belittle me and hurt me.  He flat out  sounds like a horrible person who isn't worth the time.. that is just my opinion
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 03:56:32 PM
No one said anything about you being a bad person...if you took it that way, that is no one's doing here.  It seems like you really don't want any perspective here that differs from what you deem to be "correct."  I just feel for your whole situation because it doesn't have to be this way.  But if you take the perspective as personal attacks, which they weren't, you still won't get anywhere at the end of the day.  I hope you see them soon in the spirit they were intended and I hope you can salvage a relationship with your son that both of you are comfortable with giving.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 04:00:07 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 03:04:30 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 02:14:02 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 12:55:01 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 12:51:53 PM
To me, it comes across as you want a schedule.  Reading all your posts, that's how I would take it.  I haven't read anything where you've called him to go get a drink, watch a game or anything like that.  Just a lot of sadness and hurt that he isn't doing exactly what you want, which he's already told you he's not willing to do. 

In some families 8 days a year with extended family is pretty normal.  Others it's not.


How can we ask him to go for a drink or anything else?  He's never home and doesn't return calls.  He'd never settle for watching a game.  He's not interested........unless there happens to be a film on mountain biking.  How often does that happen on tv?

You're right, you can't call him up right now and ask him to go do something -- it's gone too far for that right now.  In time, it may be possible.

I think a lot of people have given you great advice in this thread.  I wish someone could have told my MIL these type of things before it got too far and we hardly see them at all anymore.  And it looks like that's really not changing any time soon (and this is according to DH, his family, his choice.)

Something DH has been saying the past month really resonates with me concerning this thread.  He feels that his mother just plain doesn't respect him as a person.  I've often thought and described her as a person who is playing tea with her dolls concerning her children.  She pulls them out of the closet when she wants, she sits them where she wants, she has them say what she wants and do what she wants.  It's a very one sided relationship and very hurtful.  (I'm not saying you're like her, I'm just noticing similarities)

Angie, you've described your son doing some pretty nice things for you.  Going out on Mothers Day -- rejected and guilt trip by voicing complaints about more visits.  Flowers - rejected and guilt trip.  It doesn't matter what your friends think or really, even what we posters think here.  It matters what your son thinks....   Do you think he finds interactions with you pleasant?

I think you'd have to ask HIM that last question, because he's never said anything to me about whether he finds me pleasant or not.  I find it interesting that, in another thread, someone told me it's never just one side that's guilty  (not verbatim), yet here you are putting all the blame for your situation on your MIL.

LOL, whoa..no, I don't put all the blame on her.  I think I was pretty clear in describing only one side (DH's and mine) in a similar situation.  I don't know why you're looking for who's right or wrong in *my* sitch instead of just taking what I offer if it is of any use or just skipping it.   

And, there are quite a few of us here who have admitted our mistakes.  A lot of us even made a list.  But whatever, I think it's clear you're only looking for an atta girl, you're right, he's wrong. 
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 04:03:35 PM
Did we say Welcome Back Pam :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 04:20:07 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 04:00:07 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 03:04:30 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 02:14:02 PM
Quote from: Angie on March 29, 2011, 12:55:01 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 12:51:53 PM
To me, it comes across as you want a schedule.  Reading all your posts, that's how I would take it.  I haven't read anything where you've called him to go get a drink, watch a game or anything like that.  Just a lot of sadness and hurt that he isn't doing exactly what you want, which he's already told you he's not willing to do. 

In some families 8 days a year with extended family is pretty normal.  Others it's not.


How can we ask him to go for a drink or anything else?  He's never home and doesn't return calls.  He'd never settle for watching a game.  He's not interested........unless there happens to be a film on mountain biking.  How often does that happen on tv?

You're right, you can't call him up right now and ask him to go do something -- it's gone too far for that right now.  In time, it may be possible.

I think a lot of people have given you great advice in this thread.  I wish someone could have told my MIL these type of things before it got too far and we hardly see them at all anymore.  And it looks like that's really not changing any time soon (and this is according to DH, his family, his choice.)

Something DH has been saying the past month really resonates with me concerning this thread.  He feels that his mother just plain doesn't respect him as a person.  I've often thought and described her as a person who is playing tea with her dolls concerning her children.  She pulls them out of the closet when she wants, she sits them where she wants, she has them say what she wants and do what she wants.  It's a very one sided relationship and very hurtful.  (I'm not saying you're like her, I'm just noticing similarities)

Angie, you've described your son doing some pretty nice things for you.  Going out on Mothers Day -- rejected and guilt trip by voicing complaints about more visits.  Flowers - rejected and guilt trip.  It doesn't matter what your friends think or really, even what we posters think here.  It matters what your son thinks....   Do you think he finds interactions with you pleasant?

I think you'd have to ask HIM that last question, because he's never said anything to me about whether he finds me pleasant or not.  I find it interesting that, in another thread, someone told me it's never just one side that's guilty  (not verbatim), yet here you are putting all the blame for your situation on your MIL.

LOL, whoa..no, I don't put all the blame on her.  I think I was pretty clear in describing only one side (DH's and mine) in a similar situation.  I don't know why you're looking for who's right or wrong in *my* sitch instead of just taking what I offer if it is of any use or just skipping it.   

And, there are quite a few of us here who have admitted our mistakes.  A lot of us even made a list.  But whatever, I think it's clear you're only looking for an atta girl, you're right, he's wrong.
You're wrong..  I wouldn't have sent him an email after you guys showed me I was wrong in what I said in yesterday's email if I were looking for atta girl, you're right, he's wrong.  By sending that email, I was saying I realized I did the wrong thing yesterday.  That's hardly someone looking for atta girl.  That's someone who's recognized she made a mistake and tried to rectify it.  I think I've taken most of the constructive criticism in good stride and welcomed it.  I also think some go out of their way to verbalize their opinions more kindly than others.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Keys Girl on March 29, 2011, 04:28:52 PM
Angie, the title of this thread is: What Have I Done to Cause Such Pain?

Well, for one thing, "reliable sources" spying on your adult son and his wife would be one thing that you have done that would certainly cause them some pain.  Do you think they don't know about this? People always talk and I'm sure they know that you are spying on them. 

Your son is an adult, if you are unhappy because he is living his life as he wishes and not to please you, then I suggest you -
A. Leave your "reliable sources" to spy on others, because that's what stalkers do.
B. Go back to school and get a Private Detective's license so that you can legally spy on others, get paid for it and give you something interesting to do during the day.
C. If those two don't work, that's life.  You did not give your son a contract when he was born that stipulated how he would treat you when he grew up. 
D. While we give our children life and our generation was very familiar with the word "sacrifice" but this generation doesn't seem to have ever heard it whispered, every very generation has its trials and turmoils.  They will have theirs, no doubt, eventually, but certainly.
E. Lastly, "There are two lasting bequests we can give our children: One is roots, the other is wings." Hodding Carter quotes

Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 04:32:53 PM
Ok, but then you wouldn't be busy pointing out where you think everyone is wrong when they simply disagree with you.  Take a good look at your posts on this thread.  People were genuinely trying to help you in taking the time to post their differences and you have consistently posted harshly in return.  Even going so far as to victimize yourself when the opinions still didn't sway your way consistently.  I haven't seen anyone post harshly directed at you but that is your opinion, as it is mine that you're not looking for real help.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 04:40:52 PM
Real help  and opinions have fallen by the wayside all day.. Angie does not even seem to want people to agree.. So where does that leave the board and where does that leave Angie.

We had another mother on the board who was kinda stalking her son.. maybe I'm doing something wrong.. I love my children.. but they are adults and personally I don't really care that much about what they are doing on a minute by minute basis.  Your observations are correct Pam, I don't think help is what she is after here.. but she's got 27 pages and 4 months worth of postings on this topic.. that will be hard to beat.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 04:42:52 PM
Quote from: Keys Girl on March 29, 2011, 04:28:52 PM
Angie, the title of this thread is: What Have I Done to Cause Such Pain?

Well, for one thing, "reliable sources" spying on your adult son and his wife would be one thing that you have done that would certainly cause them some pain.  Do you think they don't know about this? People always talk and I'm sure they know that you are spying on them. 

Your son is an adult, if you are unhappy because he is living his life as he wishes and not to please you, then I suggest you -
A. Leave your "reliable sources" to spy on others, because that's what stalkers do.
B. Go back to school and get a Private Detective's license so that you can legally spy on others, get paid for it and give you something interesting to do during the day.
C. If those two don't work, that's life.  You did not give your son a contract when he was born that stipulated how he would treat you when he grew up. 
D. While we give our children life and our generation was very familiar with the word "sacrifice" but this generation doesn't seem to have ever heard it whispered, every very generation has its trials and turmoils.  They will have theirs, no doubt, eventually, but certainly.
E. Lastly, "There are two lasting bequests we can give our children: One is roots, the other is wings." Hodding Carter quotes

Okay, before this goes any further, I said my son has his space.  There are other public boards just  like this  one that anyone can read.  And that's my source.  I'm not learning anything no one else can learn about him.  And he's had his wings since he was 22 when he took his own apt., so he's hardly been held captive by his mother.  He knew his roots before that.  I have no desire for him to have trials, turmoil or tribulation.  I just wanna get a hug again, and I've made a step towards that today, hopefully.  And now I bid you adieu.  Keep on keeping on..... I know you will.   ;)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: jill on March 29, 2011, 05:04:40 PM
Angie,
Just want to let you know everyone here really cares about you, they know the pain you are in, and we are all just trying to help as much as we can.  We are all suffering because of the way we are being treated by the children we loved and nurtured.
I know it is hard but please not try to think about visits or hugs (I cannot remember when I last had a hug from my odd), or how many times a year you should see him.  Every family is different. You have your husband, you have pets, I would not contact your son.  He may come around, he may not, nothing you do can change it, it will be when he is ready.
Take care of yourself Angie............................best wishes Jill
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 05:08:40 PM
So you read about him on another message board?  Is that what you're saying?

I don't wish for you to leave either.
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 05:13:47 PM
Quote from: jill on March 29, 2011, 05:04:40 PM
Angie,
Just want to let you know everyone here really cares about you, they know the pain you are in, and we are all just trying to help as much as we can.  We are all suffering because of the way we are being treated by the children we loved and nurtured.
I know it is hard but please not try to think about visits or hugs (I cannot remember when I last had a hug from my odd), or how many times a year you should see him.  Every family is different. You have your husband, you have pets, I would not contact your son.  He may come around, he may not, nothing you do can change it, it will be when he is ready.
Take care of yourself Angie............................best wishes Jill

You put that very kindly, Jill.  I intend to wait and see if son responds to my last email.  If he doesn't, I'll consider it out of my hands.

Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Keys Girl on March 29, 2011, 05:14:34 PM
My point of view is that it's time to shut down this thread.  I don't spend a lot of time on the computer and I think this topic has run it's course, I have no use for people who lurk around on Facebook or other sites in an effort to snoop/stalk their adult children.

A lot of people have spent time and energy in a sincere effort to help Angie, and now she's bid us Adieu, I'm not sure if she means for the night or forever, but whatever, I won't post on this thread again if it remains active. 



   
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: overwhelmed123 on March 29, 2011, 05:17:34 PM
I didn't realize there were men out there who got on a message board or website to discuss their daily schedules, daily chores, what responsibilities they share with their spouse, and how much time they dedicate to each activity, and how often they cook themselves vs eating out...he must like to talk a lot more than he lets on!
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: LaurieS on March 29, 2011, 05:18:31 PM
maybe he tweets :)
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: Angie on March 29, 2011, 05:20:26 PM
Quote from: pam1 on March 29, 2011, 05:08:40 PM
So you read about him on another message board?  Is that what you're saying?

I don't wish for you to leave either.

That's exactly what I'm saying.  It's a public board that anyone can read.  Son posts there as do  other people, and that's  how I  learn what he's doing.  I'm not sneaking around as you prematurely thought.  The board is open to anyone and everyone.

I thought you'd all be relieved at the  prospect of my leaving..  You surprise me with wishing for me not to leave.

However, since it will make Keys  Girl uncomfortable, I think it best that I go.  Grant her her wish, and delete this thread.  Be well.  Be happy. 

Angie
Title: Re: What Have I Done To Cause Such Pain?
Post by: luise.volta on March 29, 2011, 05:29:29 PM
No one needs to stay that doesn't want to and no one needs to go that doesn't want to. Also, no one needs to continue reading a thread that has apparently run its course. OK I think we've given it our best. I'll shut it down. See you all tomorrow morning over coffee? :-) Sending love...