My son has chosen to become involved with a woman who has five children by three different men. Their ages are 15 years to 3 years. Four sons one daughter. She has been married once and lived with the other two fathers.
My son went through a divorce two years ago after a six year marriage. It was a destructive relationship for him and the divorce was not alltogether a bad thing. It was, however, difficult for him.
We have a closeknit family and have always cherished that fact. However, since the divorce, my son began to frequent local pubs where he met this woman. One night he got a DUI which involved property damage...he called her to his aid and the relationship began.
He brought her home for a visit with family and friends, and the followup comments and remarks from both fronts were not favorable in the least. He admits and seems to agree with all points of view on this 'blossoming' relationship, but has told us all to essentially 'butt out'....and should we desire our relationship with him to continue as it has for 37 years, she WILL be a part of his life and she WILL be involved in each and every exchange and facet of his life. He will NOT bypass her to be with his family.
I'm sorry, as I'm sure it's frustrating to see your child with someone you would not choose for them- however, he's a very grown man who has a valid point. If he's 37 years old, you really don't get to butt into his personal life and choices (unless we're talking about a drug/alcohol intervention, abuse, etc). This woman may have a less than perfect past, but I don't think that gives anyone a valid reason to judge her for it. He is choosing her, and he has a right to do that without interference from others. As much as it may frustrate you, I don't see that he said or did anything wrong. You said your peace, now respect his adult choice and let him live his life with this woman.
He's also giving you the choice- respect him as a grown capable man, or don't and lose your relationship with him. To me, that would be a pretty easy choice. I think we all deserve to be treated with mutual respect in our relationships, no matter who it is.
Welcome luvpetzall8. How did she act during the visit? I'm asking because I wasn't able to ascertain from your post if the remarks were due to her history or how the visit went.
And OW was right. No matter what, he is an adult and free to choose his own path, even if everyone else sees it as bad. That is a very hard thing for us to accept.
I think when a man reaches 37 , he gets to make his own mistakes .
If he agrees with all points of view ,then he realises what he's getting in to .
as long as she's respectful to you , you really can't complain .
Hey, he may end up happy . Here's hoping .
Petz,
I agree with OW. I think if I were in your DS's situation, I would find myself saying the same thing. I remember a few times my mom remarked about DH...and she didn't really say anything I didn't already know, they were just things I chose to accept about him. I think that might be why he agrees in part with what your saying (which also means, I think that he respects your opinion about it...since he can see that side of it), it is just that he's okay with her shortcomings. It's hard, b/c there is nothing you can do about it...but there's not a whole lot he can do to make you like his GF either.
I do see him saying that she needs to be included in the events as his way of saying that he'll be there as long as she's invited and welcome. To me, that's him not only fighting for her, but fighting for his family too. I think there are a lot of on here that wish our relatives would try to toe that line like he is doing.
Thank you all for your input and VERY point on observations....oddly, each of you responded as my son had...I thank you for recognizing his good character and desire to be the 'man' to this woman and the leader of his 'home' life.
You are right too is seeing my frustration.....but more than that my sadness and concern. I do not know how to express my level of ambivilance about this GF. But I have a great unease about her. My son has shown himself to be somewhat of a 'hero' and has a history of choosing needy females.....always coming out with the short end of the stick.....
We have talked at great length about this tendency within himself......I have always enjoyed the talks we have shared as a family in analysing ourselves and others and motives and actions and so forth......here I am deeply concerned for what I see and believe my folks see and he doesn't see.....But then I also know he sees things WE don't see so.....
My prayer is that all will be well ultimately, but I have serious reservations....in any case, I just need to work on myself and encourage my folks to do likewise....we also need to try to find a way to 'break bread' with this person and demonstrate graciousness....this will be a big hump for sure....
If you go out of your way to make this person feel welcome , your son will love you for it .
He'll also know you are there if the cookie crumbles ....thats families for ya ..!!
I think you have enough balance and civility within you know what the right thing to do is, and do just that. :)
The Ladies are absolutely right that he is a grown man and capable of making his own decisions. You mentioned two things that made me think. You said you are a close-knit family and that he is divorced and you thought the divorce was a good thing. Just out of curiosity, how were you toward your ex-DIL? Did you feel she was "replacing" you? Did you have to "step-in" and tell DS that she was "all wrong for him" or anything like that? I'm trying to understand DS's reaction on this. If you were judgemental of his past relationship choice, he may be blaming you for the divorce. It obviously deeply affected him. Did she leave him? over any issues with you?
Sorry if that offends or upsets you, but often times "close-knit" translates to enmeshment.
Luvpetz- I also want to add to please please be aware of your actions towards this woman. It is evident that you look down on her for her history and you don't want that to come out in your interactions with her. Some people are better than others about picking up on that kind of thing- but if they do, it usually turns into a big mess. I'm not saying "walk on eggshells," I'm just saying be aware of your facial expressions and verbal interactions with her. Make sure you don't come off as fake or condescending.
ADIL- I did ask myself the same question about the "close knit family" part. I wish I understood what it meant or why it was thrown in there with, "however, he started going to local pubs where he met this woman." From your response luvpetz, it sounds like you believe close-knit to mean you all are very familiar with each other's business (talking about telling your folks to be nice to her). I don't mean this in a negative way, I'm just asking. Because if that's the case, I think at this point in time you really do need to take a step back from being in his business and even talking about this girl and their relationship with other people, including your folks. If they try to engage in gossiping about her, ask them to stop or tell them you don't want to get into your son's personal life anymore. That's a kind of "close knit" that is likely to backfire if your son decides this woman is his lifelong partner. I also wondered why you brought up the amount of kids she has with the amount of men she's had them with. Ask yourself- why do you look down on her for her past? If you've raised an intelligent, capable man, you should trust that if he likes her, she must be a good person. We all have history that we're not proud of. The last thing we need is our in-laws judging us unfairly for them. I wish you the best of luck.
I can understand the OP's concerns. If my son went through a bad relationship which ended in divorce and then I saw him going into what I thought was a worse relationship, I would feel a not so nice feeling in the bottom of my stomach.
The picture painted of this woman was vivid enough to make me think that the ds's new gf really has had an issue with self-respect. BUT.. isn't your son doing exactly what you raised him to do.. to look past the surface and find what beauty we all have. Which is obviously more then the rest of your family is capable of doing at this point. Lead by example ... learn who this woman is first before you pass any judgment or confirm your fears.
The fact that your 37 yo son is getting DUI's etc then he is apparently making some of the poor life choices that you are concerned about with the gf. While it's possible that they may go off on a path that is less desirable by most, it's also possible that they will become stronger individuals for the sake of the other. I would feel lucky that he and his gf would even want to come back to a family that he felt had already viewed her as unworthy of being in attendance.
I agree, Laurie. And I think she also said he got the DUI by himself- and she was the one who bailed him out. She didn't have to do that, she could have left him high and dry, but she didn't. She came to his side. There's something to be said for that as well. She can't be blamed for him getting a DUI, that was all him.
Hi all, and welcome Luvpetzall8. I feel your sadness and concern.
It's quite possible the woman in question is a great asset and will be a wonderful life partner. However, the DUI is possibly a symptom of a larger problem - if DS has a problem with alcohol he isn't making clear-headed decisions about his life. Chances are he's not in the best frame of mind to make the best choice, but he is an adult and there's nothing you can do but welcome her, observe her behavior and protect yourself, your family and your finances if you feel the two of them may try to take advantage of you.
Best wishes. It's very difficult to accept and let go in cases like this. My heart goes out to you. I truly hope it will be OK.
I really want to thank you each and every one....I feel I have found a forum of friends....to bring some specifics to the matter I want to say, my family has been 'close' but not in a smothering, controlling, maniuplative, way. I appreciate the questions regarding the family dynamics because we all have differences in that way. I am confident in saying my son is his own man. Not momma's boy.
Also, the divorce came about after six years of struggle....my former DIL had some deep seated emotional problems....while being from the same home town, the two of them were military and lived 2,300 miles from us all during the marriage. As I mentioned earlier, he is a male who is a 'hero'....she needed help he couldn't give. She did not receive nor desire to seek that help during the marriage, and it dissolved. It was an amicable break in that there was no anger or bitterness. In fact, he said he thinks she had "divorced" him six months before the real break. He said she waited on him to see it was over. There was no third party or abuses. I believe he felt a failure b/c he could not 'fix' her. Her father died when she was nine and her mom had a string of bad relationships....I don't know, I just think he felt his love could bring her comfort and wholeness.....
He started drinking alot after this....his dad, my husband, was very concerned about this. After the divorce he said "I'm telling you it is not good for him to be up there alone, we need to try to get him closer to home"....so we made random visits the 600 miles to visit...work in the yard with him...go to games, movies, play cards...whatever...from time to time just to keep him buoyed up...he didn't have much of a social circle as he had only lived in the area after getting out of the AF about 1 year when this break up occurred....He had taken an excellent position with a great company and is very successful in this area of his life.
Now this new GF is not simply someone with five children by three different men.....I know we all have stories behind us which have brought us to where we are today...and thankfully we have been moved 'forward' and not remained where we were....But I have serious reservations about 'who' she 'is'....and I do know full well my son is 37 .....I just know you can't fix broken people, and
I guess I just hope that is not what he is trying to do.
The children still see their dad's....I am concerned about the fact that my son is living with her, and these poor kids are watching mom try to find her way yet again with another man....I don't know I just see the whole thing as a mess....But I really do appreciate the encouragement to move beyond these observations and try to build some sort of bridge here....
It doesn't seem to matter what age our kids are.... we hate to see them struggle or sad..
In the case of your ds, it may be quite helpful that the kids are all in contact on a regular basis with their fathers.. Your son is not having to totally take on that responsibility as well.. It will be easier if all the 'dads' get along and much easier for the children involved.
I knew a woman who had 4 kids by 3 different fathers and now married to yet another man. I was at the school one day when she was there to request an early release for them... I thought if anyone could keep up with all the different sir names they were doing good... the kids were happy, and happy that their mother was finally happy and they all seem to be very well adjusted people who just happen to have a different background then me. It's hard not to judge when it's a situation that is alien to our way of thinking... really kind of nice that your son could see past this.. I hope it works out for everyone.
You sound very level headed and have your act together. I do understand your concerns over his "need-go-fix" people. To me, this is no different than women that are in a physically abusive situation, finally get out of it, then will go right back into another physically abusive situation. Those of us that haven't been in that situation, have a hard time understanding how they do that. So why would we find it harder to imagine that they are men that do the same thing? (I'm not saying that your Son was in a relationship like that, but entered another "fix-it" relationship).
All you can do is try to show her compassion and civility, and hope that she responds in kind.
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 10, 2011, 06:32:28 AM
If you've raised an intelligent, capable man, you should trust that if he likes her, she must be a good person.
OW, I wish it was that way, but many times it's not. Even intelligent men and women, get into relationship with bad people. I think there are many of us here that have experienced our children picking a bad partner and we sit back going "What in the world?". Men and women alike. Heck, I was raised intelligent and capable and I still picked a bad first husband. And I think I was like the OP's son, "I can fix him". That was my mistake.
Oh, don't get me wrong- I don't think it DOES always work that way. I know a lot of times it doesn't. My point is to give that person the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise. You should trust that your adult child is capable to pick someone right for them instead of automatically assuming the worst, or assuming this person is wrong for them. If they prove otherwise, then they do. I'm just saying to start out with before you judge without knowing them, you should trust that.
Oh yeah, I agree with you. That's why I asked the OP in my original post if her opinions on this GF were based off of her history or her actual behavior towards them. I don't see where she answered that.
I didn't either, and to be honest it worried me that there was so much negative in the post about the woman that didn't seem to be relevant to the relationship with the DS. I guess it's a sensitive subject for me because of my ILs.
My DS, who will be 22 next week, also has this rescuer tendency. We have talked about it and he has gradually made better decisions regarding his SOs, but he has a ways to go. I only hope when he does get married, it will be to his equal, not to someone who he thinks needs to be saved, but I don't have a say in it at all. Oh, my gosh is it frustrating, but if I made that sort of decision for him, I would be cheating him of a chance to learn and grow. Maybe he never will learn, but that is not my problem. I did my best with him, now it is up to him to make those decisions and then to live with them.
I know it is hard giving up that sort of control, but you have to. Letting go is part of being a parent. I think it is the definition of parenting. Be careful that you don't mistake your problems with allowing your DS to make his own decision with a possible dislike for his chosen mate. It is easy to do and easy to blame her, but that is a mistake that will only drive your DS away. Own your own feelings, don't punish her for them.
BTW, one of my BILs married a woman who had three kids by three different fathers. I love her. They have been together for about 10 years now and are still going strong. So, her past doesn't mean she can't have a good future with your DS. Regarding the kids and what they see/are going through, that isn't your business. I know it is hard to step back from that, but you have to. It is a worry, and something I would worry about, but there is nothing you can do about it. Maybe your DS is just what they need.
Quote from: justus on March 11, 2011, 10:26:53 AM
My DS, who will be 22 next week, also has this rescuer tendency. We have talked about it and he has gradually made better decisions regarding his SOs, but he has a ways to go. I only hope when he does get married, it will be to his equal, not to someone who he thinks needs to be saved, but I don't have a say in it at all. Oh, my gosh is it frustrating, but if I made that sort of decision for him, I would be cheating him of a chance to learn and grow. Maybe he never will learn, but that is not my problem. I did my best with him, now it is up to him to make those decisions and then to live with them.
My DS is also a rescuer. In spite of our non-relation with our DIL, the rescued child DS did marry, my DH and I often look at each other and say "Thank heaven he didn't marry the GF before this one, or the GF before that." They were certifiable basket cases.
And so I wonder about myself. Did I create such a big comfort zone for DS that he was able to rescue everyone else?
I sometimes wonder that too seasage. My marriage to their father for 21 years, allowed them to see me, the woman in control, and dear Dad, the man that didn't have to do anything. I did everything because he never helped, but we didn't fight often, and the kids wouldn't have known the whys. But now I wonder if they saw that and somehow think that is how it is, or how it shouldn't be. Their take on it?
OS has been lazy and irresponsible and married a controlling person. Does he think this is normal because he saw me being the "person in charge" his whole life?
YS isn't married yet, but tends to date women that "need saving". Did he see me having to do everything, and went the opposite route?
I know they are who they are and this is not me looking for a "reason", but just things I sometimes think about...Lol.
Pssst Pooh! Luise will tell you that you're over-analyzing and some things can't be explained.
I do wish it were simpler to understand why people do the stuff they do. :-\ *sigh*
Hee hee...yes she will. But I can't help it. It is not me looking for whys and reasons, I do this by nature. If I see a water wheel, I want to know how it works. If I see a strange piece of art, I want to know the story behind it. When I am going on vacation and everyone says you have to got to go here....I want to know what makes it so interesting. Lol. I love to research things and figure them out.
I gave up on figuring out my OS several months ago....because there's nothing to figure out there. He's just him. But I still go back and ponder things when someone posts something that makes me think.
I am very much like that too, Pooh, so it has been hard for me to really let go of the fact that I will never be able to make any sense of 1) why I get blamed for everything and 2) why my H's family is willing to completely forgo a relationship with him instead of assuming responsibility for what they've done. I can't wrap my brain around it, and it's hard for me to be okay with that because I am used to reasoning and analyzing until I figure something out- in most outlets of life. I hate it when something isn't logical enough to reason out! :)
Maybe having grown up in loving homes, they just want to share the love...maybe a little too much. The "can do" attitude is a good thing. If things get too hot, that attitude may get them out of trouble, as well. It's worked for my yb.
I don't know why they become rescuers. DH thinks he was a rescuer because he was responsible for his M's emotional well-being, and being the oldest child, he was responsible for his younger siblings. He thought he was rescuing me, but boy was he wrong. If he hadn't "rescued" me, I would have been out of this podunk town long ago and on to grad school. He tried that protection thing and I gave him heck for it. I made it clear that I had been wearing big girl pants for a long, long time and didn't need him to protect me, but he was so used to that role he had a hard time stepping out of it. It is such and arrogant way of looking at the world.
DH explained it to me that it was so painful for him to watch other people face the consequences of their choices that he just went ahead and prevented/fixed things so he wouldn't have to watch the people he loved be in pain. I explained to him that he was doing the people he loved a total disservice by depriving them of learning and growth opportunities. Yes, it is painful in the short term, but if they learn their lesson now, you won't be fixing the same messes over and over again and it is less likely that a mess so big he can't fix it will occur. It also sent a message that he didn't think we, the people he loved, were strong enough to handle it while he was oh so much more equipped to deal with these situations than we were. Talk about arrogant.
We modeled a good M for DS, mostly, and I certainly didn't expect him to make my world OK. So, I am not sure if he inherited DH's arrogance or his GM did the same thing MIL did to DH. I was that person, but I stepped back from that role, and I know M pulled my siblings into being her rescuers. I think DS got pulled into it, too. Maybe a bit of both. *shrug* All we can do is point out the patterns, it is their choice to do with the info what they will.
It's funny, my DH picked me because I was so vastly different from how he was raised and his M. He was raised as a rescuer and of course, after his dad died, that role for him became even stronger. He loved the fact that I was so self sufficient and independent and didn't "need" him to make me happy. To be honest, I thought it was kind of sad that he was so surprised that women like that actually existed.
DH was livid with me when we were dating (not exclusively) early on. I went out with a guy to the nearest big city (an hour drive) and the guy refused to take me home. He figured I would relent and stay with him in a hotel; when that didn't work, he figured the car would do just as well. I kicked him, maced him, ran out of the car and to the nearest public place I could find. I had a bartender call me a cab and one $200 ride home, I was back on base, safe and sound.
Why was DH mad? I should have waited in a strange place and called him b/c that's the "easiest way to make a man feel important. Men always want to rescue someone."
The generalizations are his, not mine; I think he should have subsititued the "men" for "me" and "I". I was rather proud of myself b/c I could pull myself up by the bootstraps, but to him, this was almost a dealbreaker. I told him he watches too many movies. :)
But, I don't think his parents instilled that in him, I think it just there b/c he prides himself on being the nice guy that always does the right thing. IF I called, the right thing to do would've been to come get me, I suppose. And, maybe, when you meet someone you might be interested in, and they have what some would call a checkered past, the right thing to do is look past it at first. The other right thing to do is know when you're in over your head and when you can't fix or change someone.
Oh, and about worrying if they are making a good choice. That is so difficult to tell. I know my Ps thought DH was not right for be because we "were so different." I was in my 30s and had just finished college. I was a lot different the person they thought I was which was the 18 yo I was just before I left home. They knew we were going to be divorced. It has been 13 years and we have a great M, a much better M than my Ps and my sibling have ever had. This I know because they all used to confide in me and tell me things I really didn't want to know.
I was sure SD was choosing the the wrong guy, and even now, 5 years later, I worry that their M is going to explode. SIL puts up with so much from SD, I don't know where he gets the patience. When they were engaged, I was just so worried about it, but I had to step back and remind myself of my own P's worries and how off base they were. If their M turned out to be a mistake, it was their mistake to make and learn from. God knows, my crystal ball was certainly flawed, so who was I to know if they would end in divorce? They could be happily married for the rest of their lives. So, I shut my mouth and was happy for them even when I wasn't feeling it, and it has worked out so far. I have an amazing GC from the union, so who am I to complain? They have both grown up in some surprising ways and make a good couple in ways I had not predicted. So much for the all wise and all knowing Pamme.
Hi all, to respond to the question whether the GF had offended us in some way or demonstrated poor character in some way the answer is 'yes'.
And the story goes on.....once the relationship began, they made a visit home to meet the fam. Wow.....not good. And I really do not know how to describe all the details of the visit and make things clear or sound 'fair'..... Let's just say the differences in people were very apparent. I know my son has chosen this person and we have to respect that. That is it in a nutshell. We have our work to do. Because this is not apt to change any time soon, and we do love him and want to be a continued part of his life. I have to work on my facial expressions, and my attitude and maintain a strong leash on myself. I shared with my husband what you all had said and he said "Wait before you make any decisions, i.e.(letter writing, flowers, cards) I am not sure I am ready to do any of that, nor am I sure we 'should' ".....So I will begin working on myself and getting to a place where I am ready when we do decide to make a move toward our son and his family. Thanks again for all the wisdom....I have found the right place to vent.
But everyone is different and that's what makes the world go round. Did she have a poor attitude with you or bad manners? I mean, just being different? I wish I could understand why she made such a bad impact on you...do you think you could elaborate at all on not how you felt, but what her actions were that upset you?
This is also the right place to heal :) Sending love...
Sounds like if you push him and keep telling him you don't approve it may push him even more into her arms. He knows you don't like her so just back off now would be my advice. Once you act like you don't care..you may be suprised...he may just decide she isn't the one for him. He is an adult and he will have to live with his own decisions. You don't have to act thrilled about her but I would just tell him you just want him to be happy but you feel that 5 kids is a lot to take on.
I still am very curious to hear what her actions and behaviors were at your house that made such a bad impact on you?
We don't want to put down the mates of our friends, either. Even when they express unhappiness, it can backfire on us when they get back together. We might want to keep that in mind when our adult children take up with people we're not thrilled with.
I'm a bit curious as well, OW..my imagination can come up with some pretty wild scenarios. But only if you're comfortable, LPA8.
In my first M I was seen by my very wealthy society ILs as a total boor; in my second M, with more down-to-earth ILs, I was the well-bred, cultured one. Now I'm back to being a boor in DILs eyes. The truth is probably somewhere in between, perhaps skewing to boor a bit more than cultured these days, LOL.
Don't forget to factor in "sweetie", Pen. :D
Hi all....wow what a day....I was on my second cup of coffee this a.m. when DS called....gulp....my husband looked at the caller ID and handed the phone to me....w/o any preparation, I said 'hello' for the first time since January 19.....I have to say I was so happy to hear his voice that for a moment I was just mom and chatting with my son...forgetting the three difficult letters and the hurt they brought me, and the conflict in emails....
Of course, that was a part of the conversation, and then we moved toward the 900 lb. gorilla....But I have to say in all honesty, we had uninterrupted time on the telephone to go point by point down each and every one of the challenges we felt we faced with each other and bring some clarity to one anothers point of view....while we may not agree on all issues, we did concede any false sense of victory over one another and agreed to respect one anothers point of view....
I told him his dad and I had discussed writing a letter to GF and asked if he felt that would be of benefit to her and us....he asked what we would want to say, and I told him basically what we had just done on the phone....go point by point and clarify where we needed to complete some unfinished thoughts and explain some things which were not allowed to be explained....
I appreciate OW123 asking for exactly what occurred which put her in a bad light with the family....I will attempt to explain....DS and GF had only come to town one other time prior to January, and that was in November...it was an overnight visit....very brief and she was introduced as a friend, and we did not see her as any more than that....now, my son had spoken of her back in the early fall and late summer as someone he had met, along with other people....he had joked about her being 'after' him, and she called him 'city' and he called her 'country'....we really took these as lighthearted remarks about some one we did not know, and no more than that....then when she came in November as a 'friend', we pricked up our ears but got no feed back, so......by January when they returned, they came for a week and brought three of her children....My father has been very close to my DS throughout his lifetime...he was the first grand on both sides and my dad has placed a great premium on their relationship for 37 years....when he came in to town with the GF and family, my father called one morning to speak with DS and they exchanged so very heated words (unbeknownst to anyone else other than GF)....that day went on with shopping and sight seeing with DS, GF, and children only....we were to get back together for dinner that night....When my husband and I came into grandmother's house with great aunt visiting, we felt there was 'tension' and something was amiss....DS and GF came into the family room from the back of the house, and the children were upstairs....my son began a dialogue by turning to husband and I and said "I spoke with Papa this morning"...then rolled his eyes...I looked at him closely and he spoke lowly and said "not good"....I said what do you mean what did he say, and the aunt and grand said "Oh, let's not go into all that right now, dinner is ready let's call the kids and eat"....DS said "No, I want to get this out in the open and tell Mom and Dad what has transpired"....He began....ugh....My father has a tongue on him that would make a sailor blush...he did not choose his words carefully when he bleep bleep bleepped his way in my son's ear that morning and GF was sitting right there and heard it all....My mouth fell open, I listened as did my husband....then I said "you know how Papa is, and we have all been on the receiving end of that tongue...I am not making any excuses for him, but I want you to try to sift through the profanity, vulgarity, and meanness of what he said and put that over here...and then".....and that is where my words stopped....GF had been standing in the doorway, marched across the room, and said"This isn't about me!" and looked right at me....I said "well, it is in a" and she cut me off again and yelled up the stairs for the children....they came running down, she stood right in front of me and yelled "are you going to stand there and call me a whore and these children bastards?????!!! You AND your father!!!@@##$$" I looked like a guppy out of water ....my mouth closing and opening.....She took the children, took the keys, went to the door....great aunt followed, wimpering and begging her not to go out upset, don't drive with the children in the car upset, please stay and let's go over things, oh me oh my this is not good....but off she went....Well, my husband had my son's ear for the next hour....I DID NOT OPEN MY MOUTH....not once....at all....My husband covered alot of ground in a very calm concise manner....mostly cautionary....telling my son to move slowly, and take care....much to consider here...five children....mom is wounded....so forth....finally, when he began to repeat himself, I put my hand on his arm, and said "we need to leave"....."we need to be gone when she comes back"....DS "no mom, stay....we need to clear the air over all of this".....I said no absolutely not....she is upset enough....this needs to settle....they left the next morning, and the email's began.....She wrote and told me it had never been her intent to come between his family and him, but we obviously do not understand the nature of their relationship, nor will we ever, however, nothing and no one will come between them.....I did not respond....then another in which she called me a hypocrite, and very judgemental....Now I want ya'll to understand, I DID NOT SAY ANYTHING more than what I have conveyed here....This is where I was so caught off guard....And when I began to speak, the words were cut off and my thoughts were never expressed....After her correspondence, my son wrote three searing letters to me, and sent back his birthday gifts with a note basically telling me if she did not feel the warm fuzzies about me from here on out, he was to be counted out as well....As you can see, it was like an emotional Keystone Kops.....willynilly, pellmell, everybody everywhere.....ugh....when I found this website, I knew you were all familiar with episodes of this type and could give me some right thinking and direction.....I am glad I was able to speak with my son this morning without any chaos around...I felt he could hear me clearly and hear my heart, and know I DO respect his age and ability to choose for himself what his personal life should be like and with whom....I feel like I've written a book and I bet ya'll do too!!!! Sorry so long!!!!
Luv,
Is it possible she is so defensive about her situation because of all the past judgment she has already had? I imagine relationships have been difficult for her to come by and then when she encounters family for the first time, she is on high alert and ready for a fight.
I don't think she should've assumed you said those things, but I can see why she did. I don't think that makes her different than you all, I just think it means that she does expect that everyone (including your father) be accepting of her. She was already tense to begin with regarding his feelings about her. I don't agree with the conclusions she jumped to, but I do see how she got there.
I can not, for the life of me, explain the emails she sent...but is it possible that was what DS was trying to avoid? Do you think that's why he wanted you to stay to clear the air? It's too late now (and trust me, I would've left too), but do you think he foresaw this?
I think that maybe, since your son wants you to accept her, that all of you need to sit down and have a tough disussion. By tough, I mean, you all need to get it out in the open, and do not leave until things get resolved...and that can be hard to do. You need to go over exactly what happened, and maybe explain to her how your father is.
She has probably spent a lot of time defending herself, that she is always on the look out for people to judge her.
Best of luck to you. I do see that your son wants this to work out with you all, which is why a conversation between you, DH, DS and her might be of help. I'll be thinking of you.
I'm still puzzled...what did your dad say to your son in that phone call that upset your son?
The GF sounds like she is off her rocker. I feel sorry for you if this is the girl he is going to get serious with. UGGHH! I feel sorry for her kids. When she walked up to you and yelled at you and cursed she showed absolutely no CLASS or respect for you. She was a guest at YOUR relatives house. Who does she think she is?! I really don't even know what to add. Good luck cause you are gonna need it. :-\
And you know what....no matter what your dad said to your son (and maybe he was out of line), she had no business acting that way towards you. She sounds very inmature.
I'm going to second what HB said. I don't want to justify her behavior, but I'm assuming that grandfather said some pretty mean things about her or her past? If that's the case, I do find it a bit of a double standard to blow off what your father said as "oh that's just how he is," yet judge this woman for getting defensive about it. If "that's just how grandpa is," then perhaps everyone should be willing to look at her positive qualities and give GF the same benefit of the doubt? I'm sure none of us can understand why she reacted to you the way that she did but I can imagine how defensive and judged she must have felt (with good reason, mind you) and she reacted accordingly. I can't even imagine how I would react being in her position. Perhaps when you started in with, "oh you know g-pa," she saw you "taking his side" when really no one should have been defending his actions. Not saying that's what you did- but everyone interprets things differently and I am sure a LOT of things got lost in translation on that visit.
Wanted to also add thank you for sharing the story! It actually does shed some light on this. :)
Is this the father that you cut off and only spoke to at your other son's funeral, or have I completely mixed up posters?
I'm curious.. how is it that Grandpa trash mouth had any ammo to use against the son and his gf? Obviously he felt that he had enough knowledge to form a negative opinion of the situation. If this is the case then it was perfectly clear to the gf that she had been discussed, diced up and was ready for the barbecue pit. I probably would have felt equally insulted. The emails that followed were probably the result of the hour long warning that your dh gave to his son about his assessment of the relationship.. Other words it doesn't sound like anyone had a single positive word to say to her or about her.
What I had to kinda chuckle over and I know it's not funny.. but why would anyone be taken back by what the gf said about her perceived self descriptions that she felt was being applied to her and her children. I mean with what all grandpa says and is excused for, that sailors tongue shouldn't shock anyone.
I'm glad you spoke with your son... I know others will give high praise to the letter idea... I think I would do a one-on-one meeting with her if you really want for her to know that you're sincere. Since I'm not sure how the grandpa fits into this family, I'm not sure what I'd do with him at this point.
Thanks L, OW, HB, and Laurie....My dad IS the one I have not spoken to in five years other than funerals, weddings and baptisms!!! Now you know why!!! I dealt with him a long time ago and that was strictly for myself....so glad to have that chapter of my life dealt with! My son however, has never had a cross word from his grandad...never...this was a real wipeout....DS has not spoken to grandad since January either....I do not know how this will go down between the two, but that is between them....and my DS knows this very well....when I had my meltdown regarding my father, it was difficult for the family to understand or support my decision to distance myself, and I went through alot with them all and the pressure they put on my to put my stick back in the "Jenga" tower....I am so thankful I did not waiver...kyears of hard work led up to the final climas....anyway, OW and HB I do agree with you that this GF has had ALOT of rejection along the way, and she was sitting on ready when my words came out sounding like I was siding with my father....which I clearly was not...however, there was no calm dialogue here...there was just too much pent up emotion....valves needed to be released, assumptions were made in error, the whole thing was a train wreck....so now I willDS wants to keep you posted as to the letter writing or the sit down discussion....they are 600 miles away, and DS has a suspended license and relies upon her to do the driving....I also wanted to comment here on "L's" comments....This reaction was exactly our initial reaction....b/c we do not know her, we thought Wow....this is who DS wants to share his future with ???
But after time passed and cooler heads prevailed we began to view things in a different light...and I knew how wierd I thought the emails and her comments were....there had to be some underlying reason for her to target me and write me......so you are right on L, OW, and HB.....once again WWU triumphs!! to be continued.....and thank you all again....
Oh, and I wanted to say to "Laurie", grandad made his assessment of GF the first time he saw her on the November visit home....she is something to 'see' ;)....and then when DS came home in January with three of the children, grandad read the signs...DS had not even been over to grandad's for the customary visit, but my dad knew he was coming to town as they did talk frequently....once they arrived my dad called that morning presumably to set up a visit....NOT.....and so goes the story.....the ammo he had was from his own opinions....certainly none of mine since I am incommunicado with him....this GF on first sight did not seem like the kind of GF my son has had in the past, nor the first wife....so the difference is there to observe.....however, back again to supporting my son and his choices and his right to run his life as he sees fit without our 'approval'....yes, that is the young man we raised....and he is a good man, I am happy to say.
Ok all I can now picture is Jesse James' new girlfriend with the head to toe tattoos.
I do understand your husband's and your concerns... I even can even see how her 5 children raise some red flags.. I hope she is what he is looking for because he is certainly taking on a lot of responsibility. On the bright side, he still wants to be active in the family... shame the first real meeting was such a trying event. Almost sounds like to many people were involved to introduce her children to you and your dh... I see where a one on one would be hard, but I think I'd still try for it and if that wasn't possible then at least speak with her on the phone.... we all know that letters and notes can be misconstrued unintentionally.
Quote from: luvpetzall8 on March 14, 2011, 09:05:42 PM
Oh, and I wanted to say to "Laurie", grandad made his assessment of GF the first time he saw her on the November visit home....she is something to 'see' ;)....and then when DS came home in January with three of the children, grandad read the signs...DS had not even been over to grandad's for the customary visit, but my dad knew he was coming to town as they did talk frequently....once they arrived my dad called that morning presumably to set up a visit....NOT.....and so goes the story.....the ammo he had was from his own opinions....certainly none of mine since I am incommunicado with him....this GF on first sight did not seem like the kind of GF my son has had in the past, nor the first wife....so the difference is there to observe.....however, back again to supporting my son and his choices and his right to run his life as he sees fit without our 'approval'....yes, that is the young man we raised....and he is a good man, I am happy to say.
Hi luv.,
can you explain 'she is something to see"
Just wondering
Quote from: luvpetzall8 on March 14, 2011, 08:55:02 PM
anyway, OW and HB I do agree with you that this GF has had ALOT of rejection along the way, and she was sitting on ready when my words came out sounding like I was siding with my father....which I clearly was not...
I read what you put and if I were in GF's shoes I would have heard you as "siding with your dad." With the "welcome" your family as a while had given her, I think she had every right to say what she did to you. You need to get over that because in the grand scheme of things, that wasn't that bad. Let it go. Don't hold her past against her. My heart really goes out to her.
Ok, all the events and assumtions and other things aside. I have a real problem with GF calling the three children downstairs and yelling in front of them about "bastard children" and then cursing you, followed by herding them out. To me, that shows she is not a good role model for her children. It was like she called them down there and said that in front of them, to see if you would react so they could witness it.
I'm sorry, but a Mother that would do that and use those words in front of the children, I have no respect for. If this was the first time, what is she going to say when they ask what a "bastard child" is? The last thing children out of wedlock need is to feel like they have a bad title.
Pooh, I agree with you there. The kids should never have been exposed to that. I can see why she reacted the way she did, but I am assuming she is at least in her 30s because she has had 5 kids, if so, she should have had a lot more control than that.
On old Prof. of mine once said that our first big love is about our parents. We either chose someone who is very much like them or very different than them. The second big love is a reaction to the first partner. Either we continue to try to work out the issues we had by choosing someone similar, or we intentionally go with someone who is just the opposite. Our third big love is about us assuming we work out the issues we had with our first big love.
Of course, this isn't written in stone. I have had only two big loves. xH was totally about my parents. He was a horrible mixture of all that was bad with both of my Ps. I did a lot of work between Hs and stayed single during that time because I wanted to do better for myself and my two kids, I didn't want to make a mistake in choosing my next partner. DH was and is totally about who I am and that is why we work so well.
So, Luv, I am wondering about your DS's choice of partner here. Who is it about? Did he chose someone just like his 1st W, or is this an attempt at a relationship with someone totally different?
Either way, try not to let them make their problems about you. Be supportive and loving as much as you can be so that they don't have some outside challenge to bond over.
I advise against writing letters because words can so easily be twisted without you there to explain yourself. Look at your son's letters. Make the trip. I think it will be worth it.
I am glad you have come to a new conclusion about this experience with the GF and a more understanding perspective of why she reacted the way she did. Let's face it, she was judged. She was judged by her appearance right off the bat. You even said so yourself- she was a sight to see. So even you and your H were silently judging her- and some people pick up on that better than others.
We all here realize that you were not taking your father's side because of all the dialogue we've had with you about it. But be careful saying, "clearly you were not taking his side and GF just didn't realize it." Honestly, I don't think it was very clear in the moment. And especially not if I was GF. If I was GF would be thinking, "How could she say that's just how he is when she doesn't even have anything to do with him?" Just know that what's clear to you isn't always automatically made clear to others. It wasn't ALL her misinterpretation. I'm sure some of it was, but I'm sure everyone there could have communicated better in one way or another. I agree with justus, I would really opt for a face to face if at all possible. I feel like this can really end well if you are careful to backtrack and show her you are accepting of her (even if you truly are not- you have to fake it) verbally and non verbally.
I'm so glad we have helped! Love hearing that! But we couldn't have helped without you being willing to listen- so we're glad you did :)
Oh, and, all too often the phrase, "that is just how he is...." is code for, "So, just shut up and take the abuse." We all have family members who are just mean and since we have been dealing with it all of our lives, we just shrug, don't take it personal and move on. But, this isn't so easy for new members of the family.
One of my flaws is that there are certain sorts of behaviors that I am keyed up to reacting strongly to. I have been a scapegoat and door mat for most of my life, so if I perceive anyone trying to use me as either of those two things, I tend to overreact. I am wondering if the GF has the same issues with being called such names.
I agree, justus, and that's part of what I was trying to say too. Plus, it's unfair to give grandpa an excuse like "that's just him!" But think poorly of the GF because of her reaction. If we're saying "that's just how people are!" then she should get an excuse, too. After all, she was only REacting in defense of what was said about her.
I agree Justus, but I still have an issue with her communication style. A Mother of 5 in (like you said) probably at least late twenties, early thirties that thinks it is acceptable to scream curse words after calling children in to witness it, doesn't inspire a vote of confidence in me. Understanding her reaction may have had nothing to do much with the incident, but probably a wall she has built to protect herself. Even if she wasn't in the right state of mind to try and understand and communicate, she could have looked at them more calmly saying, "I don't appreciate the words and insinuations that I am a bad person, so I am chosing to take my children and leave", and then do so, would have give me more hope for future conversations and shown more maturity.
Quote from: overwhelmed123 on March 15, 2011, 07:20:21 AM
I agree, justus, and that's part of what I was trying to say too. Plus, it's unfair to give grandpa an excuse like "that's just him!" But think poorly of the GF because of her reaction. If we're saying "that's just how people are!" then she should get an excuse, too. After all, she was only REacting in defense of what was said about her.
I don't think poorly of GF because she got upset OW. I think poorly of GF because she called children in to witness it and said words that were inappropriate for children to hear.
I'm not saying you did, Pooh, and I'm not excusing her actions. :) But it was an issue for luv. And the emails that were sent to luv from GF reacting the way she did was an issue for luv, too. Understandably so. But I think some compassion from all sides will go very far in this particular situation.
I agree OW, and seeing it from both sides is the way to go. I just don't think we can tell luv to have compassion for what GF did, without also having compassion for luv for how GF acted. If GF was cutting luv off and not letting her finish what she was saying or explain about GP, and how she didn't agree with him, and then doing what she did in front of the children, I can see where luv was saying she didn't make a great first impression, and where her concerns lie as well.
And I am saying that because from the beginning of this thread, we all were questioning if luv was looking down on this GF because of her past, or something she did at their meeting. After she has now explained how their visit went, I can understand more why luv has reservations.
I do still think DS is a grown man and has to make his own decisions, but can see where luv's concern comes from now.
I agree Pooh, but I also think that the situation wouldn't have even happened how it did had a family member not spoken the way he did about GF. She's obviously made some not so great decisions in her life, I wonder how many times she's been reminded about that before this happened. She reached a breaking point and obviously took it out on the wrong person. But still, I feel sorry for her. She probably feels so insecure. I can't imagine overhearing God knows what being said about me. I feel like that first impression shouldn't dictate the way Luv feels about this GF because that was kind of a terrible situation the GF was put in, you have to admit. I just feel like she should be let off the hook and given the opportunity to make new impressions without feeling attacked.
I'm really sorry you're going through all this, Luv. What an awful, sticky mess you are in! I do, however, believe that it can get better!
No, I agree Pooh. I don't think I was specific enough when I said she's not handling it appropriately. If she has a problem with the stigma of having children from multiple fathers, she's not considering how her children are reacting. She is instead calling attention to the stigma, right in front of them. All she is doing is highlighting the difference for them, which increases the stigma instead of reducing it.
Quote from: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 05:25:57 AM
Ok, all the events and assumtions and other things aside. I have a real problem with GF calling the three children downstairs and yelling in front of them about "bastard children" and then cursing you, followed by herding them out. To me, that shows she is not a good role model for her children. It was like she called them down there and said that in front of them, to see if you would react so they could witness it.
I agree OW she was judged.. but you know everyone is judged at every turn she is no different. The one I referred to as Grandpa trash mouth is being judged, his behavior justified but still judged. Without knowing this woman I can honestly say that I would have judged her based on what the OP is saying... I could be wrong but I feel that we are being told that this woman is rather skanky in both appearance and demeanor. Pooh has a point and her actions very definitely say that she is not considering the well being of her children which here we go again I judge her to now be ignorant on top of classless, and a bad role model. If you don't want others to poorly judge you then don't contribute to the negative views.
I guess it's like walking down the street and seeing some black teen with his pants down to his knees and and acting like a street thug.. yep I'm going to make a judgment call in 3 seconds or less... I think it's human nature to make quick decisions which is first and foremost a survival instinct. Is it wrong? I'm sure most will say yes, but if I'm not comfortable with a person or a group of people, being wrong isn't the point any longer... it's simply how I feel.
Now how that translates into the acceptance of my child's relationship with a person that I find this uncomfortable to be around? I think I would still make the phone call and make it clear that your words were misinterpreted, and then I think I'd be upfront and straight about how you really feel. You can accept your son's decisions without becoming 'enmeshed' (did I use my new word correctly? ) with his gf or her children, or her children's fathers. We are capable of loving our children without loving their actions such as the DUI, and keeping the two separate.
Good post Laurie, and I am guilty as well. When my sons came home with a friend that was wearing all black, chains hanging around his waist, hair down past their shoulders, a tongue piercing and bracelets with skulls all over them, and wouldn't look me in the eye and simply said, "Yeah...hey", I was uneasy. I gave him a chance, but it didn't give me a warm, fuzzy feeling up front. It is wrong, but I am guilty of it too.
I have a SD that we are not seeing right now because she has decided our "house rules" are too strict for her. At 17, she knows more than us (insert eye-roll here). She was dressing like the boy I described above (minus the tongue piercing), and looked like an EMO kid. One of her gripes with us when we would make her go change because we were going to a wedding, was that we were judging her based on how she dressed. We tried to explain to her then, that yes, people were going to judge her based on her appearance. Was that right? Maybe not, but that was life. And even though she liked to dress that way, there were times and places (like this wedding) that were not appropriate for it. I asked her if she would go into a job interview dressed that way? Her answer? "Yes, I would because if that can't except me for who I am, then I don't want to work for them". She's going to be jobless for a longgggggg time.....
....unless she applies at "Hot Topic"
Oh, Pooh! Lol. My mom just landed a high paying massage therapist job, and then the boss told her she was going to have her working 4 days instead of 2. I asked her why and she said that while she was planning on hiring someone else, everyone that walked in the door came decked out in tattos and piercings and that wasn't the "motif" she was looking for.
It is so true...we do judge. It is just too easy to compartmentalize. I think that the woman's behavior probably just reinforced the pre-judgment, and in a round about way, that means that Luv wasn't really wrong for pre-judging.
Yep, it's life. Right or wrong. It's like paying taxes. I don't want to and I don't think it's always fair, but it's life.
Hang in there luv!
Pooh, I agree the GF handled it badly. My judgment of her in Luv's place would probably be the same as Luv's. I would be thinking, "What the heck has DS stepped in now?" Believe me, I have had to squash such judgments regarding my children's choices of friends and BFs and GFs so much that I think I am a professional at it.
I work in a college, so I have to do it here, too. We have so many different cultures here that I am getting much better about passing judgment based on appearance.
Oh bless you justus. Me and DH went to our local college last summer because he was trying to get his college transcripts from 20 years ago, and when we stood in line, I felt like I was standing in line to get in some funky nightclub. When we got to the desk finally, this very sweet, 60ish something gray haired lady, looked up and smiled. She said, "Oh wow, normal people." I laughed my butt off.
I once was told by a boss that I was not allowed to wear dangly earrings at work because his ancient mother had told him long, long ago that women who wore dangly earrings were disreputable (he used a different word.) It was rather amusing, but I wore posts at that job from then on. In subsequent jobs it hasn't been an issue, LOL. Times and perceptions do change.
Have you seen the new Greek yogurt and hummous commercials with "YaYa?" They're hilarious...YaYa (a traditional Greek grandma) approves of a young hostess's choice of hummous as an appetizer for her guests, but insists she "dresses like a prostitute" when actually she's wearing a very modest outfit by today's standards.
We've all got to own our actions at some point. The young woman in question has lived a certain way, and she needs to own it. If she's proud of her family she should hold her head up and show it by honoring her kids and treating them with respect. If she's tired of being judged by her appearance she needs to change it. There are many (too many) style shows on TV that could guide her.
Gosh, how many times have children done something for shock value or as a rebellion against their FOO's? Do you suppose DS's choice of a partner falls into that category?
I saw one the other day Pen, and it was hilarious! I love a good commercial.
I am probably gonna get blasted for this, but you know I can't stop myself once I get on a roll... ;D I had a friend that was complaining one day how she couldn't go in a bar or club without guys hitting on her constantly. That all men thought she was easy. Ok, she would wear a see through shirt with her "assets" pushing out the top and her belly showing. Paired with either a very short skirt or skin tight faded jeans, with 3" spikes on. When I pointed out that they way she chose to dress, gave off the impression that she might be that way, she got soooo mad at me. I couldn't help it. I can't stand when women complain about that but dress for the attention.
Sorry gotta be honest...when all is said and done...that GF is a train wreck. I don't feel sorry for her. And no matter if she felt disrespected by crazy Grandaddy she shouldn't have blown up and cursed in front of her kids and at everyone. That was totally ridiculous. She is not a teenager but obviously has the maturity of one.
Sounds like you are handling the whole situation very well though. Sorry your dad is loud and uncontrollable. He is older and so is "old school" as they say... so he probably does not think much of her since she has all those kids out of wedlock. And actually I think she does sound like a train wreck.. but your DS has to make his own choices and it's his life to live.
I would just take a step back and let it play out. I wouldn't feel compelled to write her a letter...hey, it wasn't your fault your dad acted like he did toward her and she got mad at everyone and went loco! :-\ Hang in there.
Quote from: L on March 15, 2011, 09:11:06 AM
Sorry gotta be honest...when all is said and done...that GF is a train wreck. I don't feel sorry for her. And no matter if she felt disrespected by crazy Grandaddy she shouldn't have blown up and cursed in front of her kids and at everyone. That was totally ridiculous. She is not a teenager but obviously has the maturity of one.
While that is possible L, in her current relationship she is the one that has not had her license revoked so train wreck or not, she is his train to ride. If I'm going to pass negative judgment on one based on the OP statements, then I'll pass them on all :) and I think there may be as many facets here as a brilliant cut diamond.
Oh, well I didn't know DS had his licensed revoked...I don't always read every single post. Well, yeah I agree that's not good. Still think she sounds like a train wreck though. We are all entitled to our own opinions. But thanks for udpate! :)
Quote from: Pooh on March 15, 2011, 09:00:03 AM
I saw one the other day Pen, and it was hilarious! I love a good commercial.
I am probably gonna get blasted for this, but you know I can't stop myself once I get on a roll... ;D I had a friend that was complaining one day how she couldn't go in a bar or club without guys hitting on her constantly. That all men thought she was easy. Ok, she would wear a see through shirt with her "assets" pushing out the top and her belly showing. Paired with either a very short skirt or skin tight faded jeans, with 3" spikes on. When I pointed out that they way she chose to dress, gave off the impression that she might be that way, she got soooo mad at me. I couldn't help it. I can't stand when women complain about that but dress for the attention.
Pooh! I think you know my SIL! LOL She dresses like that and has a fit when men leer at her. I told her when you dress like a "lady of the evening" (yes, I used THAT exact phrase LOL) you can't have a problem when it attracts guys like that.
Hee hee. If I am going on a date with my DH, and I want to send out certain signals, I know exactly how to dress to send those signals. I don't buy into the Bologna that women don't know what they are doing.
We are ultimately responsible for our own reactions to people. I'm not saying I haven't had negative reactions toward people based on what they wore, but I've been trying very hard to work through that. I also try very hard to not make that known and give a person a chance despite outward initial appearances.
I feel that women should be able to wear whatever they want, if it makes them feel good. It is up to the men to resist calling them names, grabbing them, cat calling or whatever is done nowadays. The risque attire seems like such a slippery slope; I've heard it used in rape cases, sexual harassment cases and I've seen photos where one woman had a button more unbuttoned than maybe I would have (not what I would call risque). What is risque to one person may not be to another (cross-culturally speaking, modesty speaking), and I don't think there is a fine line as to what is appropriate and what is not. As long as we're blaming the victim, the perpetrators can continue their treatment of other people as they would like without suffering consequences..and the behavior will remain unchanged.
I can't control what someone else will wear, but I can control how I'll treat them for it. I realize this is contrary to what society teaches us, but there are some cases where I wish society would change...and this is one of them. Although I'm not without my preconceived notions of people, I probably need to keep them in check when getting to know someone.
I'm a feminist at heart, so maybe there is just a little of that coming through. Even if someone is scantily clad, tattooed, pierced, and who knows what else, they are owed the same protection that I would expect, because harm done to her means that harm could easily be done to me for no other reason than what I'm wearing. I don't expect to be groped and called names, so I don't expect that treatment of her either. I believe that if she weren't around dressed like that, men that do that sort of thing would make me their next target (or 3rd or 4th) and I do consider myself Ms. Modest.
Quote from: holliberri on March 15, 2011, 11:02:01 AM
As long as we're blaming the victim, the perpetrators can continue their treatment of other people as they would like without suffering consequences..and the behavior will remain unchanged.
Whoa..back the train up. You are talking about something totally different than what I was. I said attention, not physically attacking or groping. I wasn't talking about a woman being harrassed. I was talking about a female that can't believe a man would approach her dressed provocatively. What you are talking about is totally different.
And I totally agree with you that we shouldn't base first impressions on what someone is wearing, but I do it all the time. I give them a chance and try to get to know them, but if I am walking in my neighborhood at night, and a thug looking guy starts approaching me with his dark hoodie pulled over his head and baggy pants, I am leary. Not saying that's right or wrong, just that it's true in my case.
And holli, I do get what you are saying. A person should be able to dress how they want without fear of retribution.
I didn't think that was what you were talking about. I was speaking more in hyperbole, and I should have said that. I think there are a few fine lines in that sort of situation: what a girl is wearing is one, and what a man does is another.
I can wear what I want, and you're welcome to approach me: once. I would take no offense to that. If I say no (or now, if I say, "Hey, married, sorry...move along") and he keeps on that subject, the problem is him, not what I'm wearing. I would interpret that kind of behavior as harassment; I'm not exactly sure what your friend goes through at the bar, though.
I dress a little differently in the summer, or if I'm happy, or if... "You know what? I worked my tail off to get these calves just right and the perfect accessories are a 6 inch pair of Jimmy Choos and a mini-skirt," but the point is, I dress for me. Having said that, I don't even own a pair of Jimmy Choos and my mini-skirt is from 2003, but still, as soon as I get back on that treadmill; I do expect my self-esteem to go up, and my clothing to tighten up along with it...I don't have any other goal than that. That doesn't mean that unwanted attention is okay.
I did just hurt my coworkers feelings. He always wears sweats and a tee, and I said 'Have fun at the gym!' today. He has a herniated disk, he hasn't been to the gym in two years (he was a body builder before), but he has to wear comfy clothing b/c of how much pain he is in. Again, my assumptions have once found me in a little trouble.
In terms of tattoos...I don't have one, but I did hear they're addicting. I would think that would mean that sometimes, the average Joe winds up with 20 more than he ever would have intended originally. Again, sometimes.
When was in management at Aetna Life and Casualty, I was actually sent home for wearing a pants suit. (I was lobbying for them to change the dress code) I went to a thrift shop and got the most awful dresses you can even imagine...then I wore them every day along with no make up and a a pony tail with a rubber band around it. When I was confronted, I just looked confused and said..."but I'm within the dress code, right?" ;D ;D ;D
LOL, Luise.
I wore a sleeveless shirt (not a tank, not a spaghetti strap thing, more like a vest) in the first grade. The teacher told me not to, and when my mom put it out for me, I told her I couldn't wear it.
Mom marched up to the school with it in hand and threatened to make me wear it everyday if they didn't change the dress code. They told her they were afraid of sexual harassment in the school (in first grade!?).
I was, just a mortified 6 year old at the time (Mom, come on!! ::) ), but I do see her point, now.
I gotcha holli. I agree that once is ok, twice is looking for you to get a well placed knee ;D. My friends complaints are simply that guys approach her.
Tattoos, oh lol. I actually have two. I got my first when I was 32, after making sure that at that age, I still wanted it, and it wasn't a whim. Wait for it....it's a Pooh! You got a shocked face? I did take into my thought process, what society would dictate. I worked in a place where I had to wear dresses many days, and dress professionally. So I didn't want to wear a dress and worry about my tattoo showing. So the artist, helped me place in on my shoulder, to what they call, the inside of a sundress. The only time it shows is if I have spaghetti straps or a bathing suit on, and it is rare that you will catch me with either of those. Did I let society dictate that? Yes, in a way I did. My friends got them on their ankle areas, and every time they wore a dress, you saw them and even though we shouldn't have to worry about it, it didn't give off a professional appearance.
The 2nd one I got last year, after I decided I wanted to get one for my DH. It is special to only he and I, and again, I had it placed where it would not show unless I wanted it to. My friends that got them, have found them addictive and gone back after several more. I didn't find it addictive, but I like the ones I have. They each have special meaning to me and I also love art so much, I enjoy the artistic aspect of them as well.
If you saw me, you would never guess in a million years that I had tattoos.
Quote from: luise.volta on March 15, 2011, 11:49:16 AM
When was in management at Aetna Life and Casualty, I was actually sent home for wearing a pants suit. (I was lobbying for them to change the dress code) I went to a thrift shop and got the most awful dresses you can even imagine...then I wore them every day along with no make up and a a pony tail with a rubber band around it. When I was confronted, I just looked confused and said..."but I'm within the dress code, right?" ;D ;D ;D
Hee hee ;D
Oh, and you guys will get a kick out of why my DH doesn't have one. He wants one very badly, but his exact words...and I quote, "My Mother would kill me."
All I know is if you dress and present your self in a certain way and end up on the Walmart Shoppers Site.. I'm going to shake my head, wonder how disgusting some people can be.. then laugh at you for getting yourself put on the Walmart site.
Awee...but I thought that the Walmart Shoppers Site Christmas Edition was kind of cute... :)
Laughing about what people wear is different than actually treating them differently. I think you can laugh at attire, without laughing at the person. Although, if I didn't think that, it might not make much sense for me to look forward to the Oscar Worst Dressed List as I do every year.
Although, I don't think laughing at the get-up your child's significant other is in would be wise, at least on the first few meetings, unless it's Halloween or Carnivale.
But at the same time you have the right to decide if this is how you want to portray yourself. If I had a kid who was covered head to toe in tattoos, purple and green glow in the dark mohawk, and spikes embedded in his forehead.. I should also be respected for not wanting to be seen associating with that person. As much as it's their choice, it's mine as well. And yeah I've actually laughed at some of the Walmart shoppers.. not just how they are dressed.
LOL, not associating with someone or being embarrassed about their appearance is okay, I think.
As for the WalMart Shoppers, I seriously had a guy come up to me last night and tell me not to buy their ice cream (I was in the hamper/laundry aisle so why he thought I was concerned about ice cream I have no idea). I ignored him...he then said, "They take half the ice cream out of the container and mark it down only 25%." He was going on and on as I was walking away.
I think he gave me a reason to laugh at him. Actions are different than clothing. I wouldn't give a guy a misplaced knee for hassling me at the bar (Queen of Delayed Reaction), but I do think I'd laugh at him.
I think the GF in this instance didn't give anything away until she opened her mouth. If she had risen above, it might have disproven the stereotype about her appearance.
Quote from: holliberri on March 15, 2011, 01:06:18 PM
I think the GF in this instance didn't give anything away until she opened her mouth. If she had risen above, it might have disproven the stereotype about her appearance.
Well unless I missed something while I was at Curves and you all were playing on your computers.. has it been declared as to why her appearance is questionable. Inquiring Minds Want To Know :)
LOL...you are so right.
Assumptions, again. I took your Kat Von D impression and ran away with it. Oops.
No Laurie, I don't think it was ever said.
Luv,
I'm really sorry; I made a lot of assumptions about the appearance of your DS's GF that I shouldn't have. I believe this was a total waste of a board for you. I'm really sorry. I'll be more careful about that; I combined posts.
It's not a waste... I think she can see that even though we know that it is wrong to judge a book by it's cover.. humans do exactly that at times. She is not wrong for making a snap decision and how it will affect her.. even if we know that it's not right.
Now if this girl supports her original opinion by cussing Luv out, then the gf is sealing the deal on how she will be perceived. I still say that when you son especially an adult makes his mind up to make this gf his soul mate, there isn't anything you can do, or should do for that matter but it doesn't mean that you need to be untrue to yourself either.
I agree. We may have went a little askant, but it was tied into the opinions that were being posted that luv could be judging GF on appearance or past. And in a round-about-way, holding up for luv on that we are all guilty of judging people sometimes at first impression. And I agree that GF did act out in a way that upheld their families opinions of different.
The second time I ever met my future in-laws... we went to dinner.. MIL suggested that we order some wine.. I was 20 and pretty much light weight drinker.. so I said ok.. I drank a glass before dinner and then we went to the salad bar.. I think I staggered to the salad bar lol.. In-laws said nothing.. only God knows what they were thinking... I carefully and skillfully use my fork to spear the unruly leaf lettuce and then proceeded to miss my mouth and stab myself in the side of my face on the first bite. If they were the type to judge you and then accept that you can not change, there would have been no hope.
Acceptance is what luv is after... you don't have to love this girl or the situation, but if you can accept her for who she is, your home will be calmer and happier.
It isn't just how you dress that attracts unwanted attention. I am pretty, even in my 40s, and have always had men leer at me. I have never dressed provocatively, tending more towards classy and comfortable, I am not a flirt, and only in the last couple of years have I begun to wear makeup regularly. Heck I let my hair go gray and I am overweight!! I do treat everyone from the president of the college down to the janitors exactly the same, that is with respect and consideration, and DH says this is why. Research has shown that people tend to be optimistic about their chances with the opposite sex and this coupled with misreading cues means that men go from "Hi" to having me in bed pretty quick just because I am nice to them. If my boundaries weren't water tight, I would be on the edge of having affairs with several men, at least in their minds. I hated being single because I had to constantly deal with insistent men of all ages and insecure wives. Believe me, I don't like this sort of attention, and I don't solicit it.
With the way fashion is these days, it is impossible to know what a girl is all about. The girls from a certain area around Big City dress like whores according to the standards of our small community, but this is how all the girls dress up there. It is what is fashionable in that area and in Hollywood. It is kind of fun to watch the freshman boys from other areas figure out they are not actually whores the hard way. The girls do tone it down and become more professional as they realize what sort of message they are sending and as they get closer to graduation.
But, I am telling you, some of the things I have seen from all sections of the population over the years. Cleavage down to the belly, and butt cleavage all the way down. There was a time in the 90s when skirts were obscenely short, which was hell for DH. He is a Prof. and he often taught in tiered lecture halls. Lets just say that panties were optional with these short skirts. He has had to learn how to look without seeing. His students test him to see if he is looking and if he doesn't look, he is respected even more.
It is hard to judge and you wonder what their Mamma taught them about appropriate dress, but even that is an unfair judgment. Fashion is so personal. If my Mamma dressed me, I would be wearing shirts embroidered with teddy bears, American flags and unicorns. So NOT my style.
Quote from: justus on March 15, 2011, 01:47:36 PM
It is hard to judge and you wonder what their Mamma taught them about appropriate dress, but even that is an unfair judgment. Fashion is so personal. If my Mamma dressed me, I would be wearing shirts embroidered with teddy bears, American flags and unicorns. So NOT my style.
So true, justus! I'm sure my ILs used to think I dressed provocatively because I have a nice body that I have worked hard for and I like to show that (I'm not talking about showing skin, I just mean the way my clothes fit me or the cut of a dress or blouse). But I thought they dressed like old grandmas. It's just all about personal preference and style. I would never be caught dead in the clothes they wear, and I'm sure they thought I was too "edgy" with mine. But I promise you that no one else I associate with thinks that. They'll simply say, "cute top!" Or, "your butt looks really good in those jeans!" (girls, of course) Even my mom loves my clothes...she's little too so we borrow clothes a lot, but she's pretty modest so she would say if she thought I was dressing skanky. It's trendy...nothing wrong with it. But if you talked to my ILs they would think so. It is all about preference. I mean unless your goodies are hanging out all over the place and your skirt shows your buttcheeks...that might be a little much.
I agree that personal choice of fashion is up to each individual. And attractive men and women, no matter how they dress, are probably going to get hit on. There are many things that attract people of the opposite sex. I think all that is a given and will always happen. I met my first husband while covered from head to toe in mud (from ball practice in the rain) and for whatever reason, he found that attractive. I didn't discover until after we were married, it was because he was dumber than dirt.
I was always very fashion conscious in school. I went through the preppy phase, and then into the 80's. I didn't dress that way because I thought I was Madonna, I dressed that way because it was the current tread. I still remembered to say please and thank you. My clothes did not define who I was.
My problem with what I see today is they do not consider it fashion. I walk into our Mall every week and there are teenagers hanging out with clothes that deem them EMO, Goth or Scene Kids, two tone hair in vivid colors, girls dressed like boys, boys dressed like girls, some dressed so I don't know which gender they are, piercings in their noses, ears, lips, eyebrows, etc. They are rude and cursing, will not move to the side so an elderly couple can walk by and will push past you without a backwards glance. I do look at them and think, why do their parents let them do that? There will be a never-ending argument of letting them be who they are, don't clip their wings, give them some freedom, don't stifle them (can you tell we have heard every one of these from SD?) I have had numerous conversations with SD and she will tell you, they do not consider this a fashion trend. She is insulted if you say that. She will tell you it is a culture and who they are. She says it depicts their torment and deep feelings about society....Ok, you guys following this. Her clothes are a reflection of who she thinks she is. Her words, not mine. And with her clothing choices, she adopts the attitude of the culture she is trying to respresent.
She was raised to respect others, to have empathy for people, to know the difference between right and wrong, to be confident, to do well in school, to be a good person. Her torment is that she was given an 11 o'clock curfew on weekends. So therefore, we are stifling her. That's a load a crap. She simply thinks that she should be able to do anything she wants and not be held accountable. So she dresses like that and acts all depressed to imply what a tortured life she is leading and get sympathy from all the other kids that have adopted that culture. And when she finally starts having real life issues? She is not going to cope well. Her culture dictates torment is teachers giving assignments, parents giving curfews, having to clean your room, having to help around the house, having to "ask" permission to go with friends, I can't use my cell phone in class to text and I have to keep up my grades to earn the right to drive my car. That is their torment. Heck, I didn't realize my parents or school tormented me, because I thought those were normal rules.
So I am sure there are people out there that are dressing differently, that are really nice people, just as I deal with people daily that are dressed nicely and fashionable, that are the biggest jerks. I am sure there are women that dress provocatively that do it just because they like it and don't want to be hit on, and there are some that dress that way to get hit on. But if I dress up today in a big ole' bear suit and go to the mall, I have to expect that there will be children that probably will try to hug me. I can't be shocked or offended when they are not interested in the fact I am a good person underneath. I dress like a bear, I am a bear at first impression.
Sorry Luv, now I am feeling like I hijacked your thread. I will quit now...Lol.
I do hope you come back and answer the question of her appearance.
Quote from: Pooh on March 16, 2011, 06:02:02 AM
She was raised to respect others, to have empathy for people, to know the difference between right and wrong, to be confident, to do well in school, to be a good person. Her torment is that she was given an 11 o'clock curfew on weekends. So therefore, we are stifling her. That's a load a crap. She simply thinks that she should be able to do anything she wants and not be held accountable. So she dresses like that and acts all depressed to imply what a tortured life she is leading and get sympathy from all the other kids that have adopted that culture. And when she finally starts having real life issues? She is not going to cope well. Her culture dictates torment is teachers giving assignments, parents giving curfews, having to clean your room, having to help around the house, having to "ask" permission to go with friends, I can't use my cell phone in class to text and I have to keep up my grades to earn the right to drive my car. That is their torment. Heck, I didn't realize my parents or school tormented me, because I thought those were normal rules.
Pooh, a great start to my day. You have put it all so well. We could be talking about the same girl. I am feeling a lot happier at the moment. My daughter (as above) is 18 and leaving home tommorrow. She has plans for her future and that is really good I am happy about that. The "real world" will be quite a shock to her but now at last she will find all about it herself. I feel many young people today don't have resilience and won't cope terribly well later in life but I will NOT enable her for 1 minute longer, the last 5 years has worn me out. Yes poor me lol.
Sorry Luv to get of topic just had to add to pooh's post. But there IS hope we just need to hang in there....
Bless your heart Julia AND good for you! I agree. I think SD is going to have a rough life.
Quote from: Pooh on March 17, 2011, 09:49:08 AM
Bless your heart Julia AND good for you! I agree. I think SD is going to have a rough life.
Not necessarily, Pooh. My dd had that attitude, so long as she lived at home. I used to say she, "wants what she wants when she wants it." She still does, however, the real world doesn't owe her the way she "thought" dp's did. :) I think Julia has the right idea. Dd should have home sooner, she lived here while she got her bachelor's degree, resenting every minute.
I forgot to mention that dd is doing fine. She still has an attitude where dm is concerned though. I fill her every whim. : (
Quote from: Rose799 on March 17, 2011, 11:14:22 AM
I forgot to mention that dd is doing fine. She still has an attitude where dm is concerned though. I fill her every whim. : (
oopsie - "I didn't fulfill her every whim"
I'm glad that your DD is doing well, and don't get me wrong, I hope SD does too. But I am afraid that with her "it is always someone else's fault and responsibilty how my life goes". She takes no personal responsibility for anything and has cut us off at 17 because we didn't cater to her and give in.
I hope you are right and she does do ok.
My oldest son use to get so aggravated with me over food in the fridge.. he would do his best manly shout.. "When I have my own place I'll have roast beef in the refrigerator at all times"... We went to his place about two years ago and everyone was hungry.. I said oh I'll take roast beef... he said yeah well mom I've learned to eat bologna ... getting out on their own.. the world will slap them a few times when by law you couldn't :)
FYI, I had to move in with my dad for 6 months in 2009 when DH deployed and I was in law school.
Let's just say I um...regressed. Messy room, not cooking, not helping with the chores. 25 year old baby.
So...be forewarned should a child need a home for a little while. We might pick up our old habits really fast!
I am glad, Rose, that your DD is doing well on her own. I hope the real world keeps working on her and she starts working on her relationship with her DM.