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Chickie's post got me thinking....when is it ok to say enough?

She said her friend was cut off for the silliest little reason.  Which reasons are OK and which ones are silly?  I think most of us would agree cutting off someone who is physically or sexually abusive is ok.  What about verbally?  And when does it go from "lost their temper" to "verbally abusive"? 

While you all have been so accepting, I am "one of those girls".  My DH and I haven't seen his parents in 2 1/2 years.  And I wonder if our reasons would be considered valid or silly.  And if it's hurting her son and DIL so much, is the reason really silly?  I'm just interested in getting your perspective on the whole thing. 

They believe that you HAVE to take whatever they dish out because "blood is thicker than water".

PFFFTTT!!!  My answer is:  "Actually.....I don't".

I've cut off family members as well as inlaws in the past, and before I've done so I've asked myself "Would I associate with this person if there wasn't a DNA connection?"  If the answer is "no", then no more needs to be said. 

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't treat family with the same respect that they give to random strangers.  And that is totally messed up.

Well, I grew up with the concept that parents are sacred, unless of course they did something REALLY bad. We owe our parents our life and we owe them respect and we are the ones that need to conform to them and not viceversa. I realize in today's world everyone is considered equal, there's no respect for the elderly and this is very hard for me to accept.

Quote from: doormat on April 07, 2010, 10:13:28 AM
They believe that you HAVE to take whatever they dish out because "blood is thicker than water".

PFFFTTT!!!  My answer is:  "Actually.....I don't".

I've cut off family members as well as inlaws in the past, and before I've done so I've asked myself "Would I associate with this person if there wasn't a DNA connection?"  If the answer is "no", then no more needs to be said. 

Unfortunately, a lot of people don't treat family with the same respect that they give to random strangers.  And that is totally messed up.

Yes, Doormat, we do have to take whatever is dished out.  We have to, not because we want to but because we want
to keep in contact with our "blood relative son"  Yes, blood is pretty thick and it is indeed thicker than water but when
you've had enough, I guess you do have to go where the DILs have already been and that's to get a swig of that tasty
Boundaries book.  Since the DILs wrote it, I guess they have a leg up on us.  We're like Freshman and here they are
with their Master's Degree. 

Hell, I think I'll get my PHD in the thing so I can do battle on their turf.  I'm so sick and tired of this whole thing....trying to defend
a Mother's heart....it's ridiculous.  It's time for the gloves to come off and for his parents to be shown some respect just for being his parents.  If you've got a good husband thank his parents.  (like if you speak English, thank a teacher?)  Same thing, just
a higher calling. 

Clover, this really is a great post!  One that I believe will make everyone think.  I really have cut off family before.  Without getting too much into the story, my children were being abused.  Don't get me wrong, I believe a slap on the bottom once in a while brought them to their best senses and at the same time I have to say that my pop on their bottoms was more of a brush than a slap or a beating.  When I cut off some family members they were watching my kids while I worked (my late 20's, I'm 55 now).  I went to pick up my children one day, and had given plenty of warning before that about what I felt was abuse, my daughter was sitting in a chair and my son wasn't ready to go.  His jacket (which I washed the night before was being washed).  I asked why his jacket had to be washed again and was told that he had gotten a bloody nose.  On the way home in the car my daughter told me they lied to me.  She said the family member was on top of him beating him for something he said, and was sitting on top of him, beating him until he bled.  I called in personal leave when I got home and called the family member, telling them they were no longer welcome to watch - or see my children, and they didn't for a few years.  When I did finally take my children over again, they were not left alone with them.  The family member had denied the whold experience.  My children thought if they told me, they would get in trouble!

I already have another unpopular view on another thread but I guess I'm going to do it again...   I have to agree with doormat.  Relationships are two way streets whether you are biologically connected or not and sometimes your family will expect you to take anything they have to dish in your direction.  Whether it be toward the children, parents or IL's.  I do feel there are always going to be very good reasons for saying enough.  If I had the chance to go back and change my decision, I wouldn't.  If and/or when it comes to abuse, whether physical or verbal, I believe I'm the parent and have the right to say enough, just like I do for myself, and I believe sometimes that is the healthiest decision we can make...

EXACTLY Coco!  Stick with people who treat you with dignity and respect and ditch the rest as best you can, whether they're related or not.   Or at least, for self preservation purposes, greatly reduce your exposure to them.   My DH recently cut off contact with his uncle and his family (I stopped seeing them years ago) b/c all they ever did was break other people's stuff, ask for money, and demand free stuff.  You think I need people like that in my life just b/c my DH happens to be related to them?  Not likely.

Personally I don't think an inlaw relationship is any different to any relationship in our lives.  If you are empowered and strong you know how you should be treated.  Asking someone to suck it up and put up with someone because "that's just the way she is" is no different from telling a wife she should stay with a husband who abuses her.  Who among us would suggest that?

My answer to that's just the way she is, is that this is the way I am, I don't believe I deserve to be belittled and bullied, so I won't!  I wouldn't care if it was my mother in law or my son doing it.  Blood has nothing to do with it.

After my mother passed away I cut my abusive Step-father off, completely.  After years of him trying to sequester my mom away from her family, being mean and nasty to her grandchildren, and finally raising a fist to me one week after her passing.....he was gone from my life.  I'm not sorry I did this action, nor am I concerned for his well-being or mental health....I'm just done with him. 

Getting feedback from my step-sibs about how cruel I am not to keep him in the style to which he was accustomed to live...and hearing what a terrible person I was to NOT feed  and nurture their father...I cut them out of the loop too.

For my sanity, I had to resort to this action.   I had reached the "Enough" point.

I'm not here to make people mad, really I'm not, but I do agree as far as relationships go.  Whether they be family, IL's or friends, there is a certain amount of give and take in any relationship.  I can see tolerating some things and accepting that someone else is human, as long as I know that person is also tolerant of me and my humaness.  However there are just some things that cross lines.  In your original post Clover you accepted abuse, but I also believe if you are in a relationship with anyone who chips away at your dignity, then after awhile, that may be reason to set some boundaries. 

Renny had a problem with her inlaws bullying her and finally stopped going to family functions (and after a threat to push her down a flight of stairs, which I think is abusive).  I believe ther are valid reasons for staying away from these relationships. 

All of our relationships are as important as we want them to be, and usually the abuse can be stopped.  In my case, it took years to get the message across.  It was important enough to me to wait.  I don't believe that was from a need to be right or from stubborness.  I feel I did that for the protection of my children.  I would also do it for my own protection, the protection of my parents, or anyone else who may be faced with these things. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are always going to be reasons for having boundaries, and I believe that having them is sometimes the healthiest thing for everyone.  I also believe each situation is different, but sometimes if someone I know is overbearing then it does create a desire in me, not to see them if I don't believe I deserve that.  Maybe we shouldn't address boundaries, but dignity and respect...

There is just so much involved when these decisions are made...

Quote from: Orly on April 07, 2010, 06:18:39 PM
After my mother passed away I cut my abusive Step-father off, completely.  After years of him trying to sequester my mom away from her family, being mean and nasty to her grandchildren, and finally raising a fist to me one week after her passing.....he was gone from my life.  I'm not sorry I did this action, nor am I concerned for his well-being or mental health....I'm just done with him. 

Getting feedback from my step-sibs about how cruel I am not to keep him in the style to which he was accustomed to live...and hearing what a terrible person I was to NOT feed  and nurture their father...I cut them out of the loop too.

For my sanity, I had to resort to this action.   I had reached the "Enough" point.

Exactly.  I believe we all have an "enough" that can finally be reached.  We may try to bend, but I believe there are times that if we do not say "enough," we will break, and that may be different for each person..

Coco, you put it beautifully.  Sometimes it's obvious (eg Renny and the threat of serious bodily harm).  Other times it's more of a death by a million paper cuts.  It's just one of those things that you can't always explain but you just know.  You try different things to make it work and finally you just get so beaten down you have to say enough. 

Quote from: coco on April 07, 2010, 06:29:53 PM
I'm not here to make people mad, really I'm not, but I do agree as far as relationships go.  Whether they be family, IL's or friends, there is a certain amount of give and take in any relationship.  I can see tolerating some things and accepting that someone else is human, as long as I know that person is also tolerant of me and my humaness.  However there are just some things that cross lines.  In your original post Clover you accepted abuse, but I also believe if you are in a relationship with anyone who chips away at your dignity, then after awhile, that may be reason to set some boundaries. 

Renny had a problem with her inlaws bullying her and finally stopped going to family functions (and after a threat to push her down a flight of stairs, which I think is abusive).  I believe ther are valid reasons for staying away from these relationships. 

All of our relationships are as important as we want them to be, and usually the abuse can be stopped.  In my case, it took years to get the message across.  It was important enough to me to wait.  I don't believe that was from a need to be right or from stubborness.  I feel I did that for the protection of my children.  I would also do it for my own protection, the protection of my parents, or anyone else who may be faced with these things. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are always going to be reasons for having boundaries, and I believe that having them is sometimes the healthiest thing for everyone.  I also believe each situation is different, but sometimes if someone I know is overbearing then it does create a desire in me, not to see them if I don't believe I deserve that.  Maybe we shouldn't address boundaries, but dignity and respect...

There is just so much involved when these decisions are made...

Coco,
I'm so sorry to hear that someone hurt your dc.  Beating a child?  How horrible!  I'm so happy you set some boundaries and kept your dc away from the abuser once you knew.  And I'm proud of your daughter for speaking up when it happened.  You're a wonderful mom and grandma. 
Sending love and hugs,
Hope

Thank you so much Hope.  I've had such negative responses to some of my posts, that I believed this would be another one.  I'm pleasantly surprised.  I may not go along with the crowd here and am not for everyone, but I will be honest.

And I appreciate your love and support so much!  Thanks for the hugs too!  I felt them.. :)

Quote from: clover on April 07, 2010, 09:34:02 AM
Chickie's post got me thinking....when is it ok to say enough?

She said her friend was cut off for the silliest little reason.  Which reasons are OK and which ones are silly?  I think most of us would agree cutting off someone who is physically or sexually abusive is ok.  What about verbally?  And when does it go from "lost their temper" to "verbally abusive"? 

While you all have been so accepting, I am "one of those girls".  My DH and I haven't seen his parents in 2 1/2 years.  And I wonder if our reasons would be considered valid or silly.  And if it's hurting her son and DIL so much, is the reason really silly?  I'm just interested in getting your perspective on the whole thing.

I think cutting off (mil or dil) someone who is physically or sexually abusive is apparent.

Someone that is verbally abusive is this way all the time. Nothing good ever comes out of that persons mouth about you. That person finds fault in everything you do and say and verbalizes it everytime she or he sees you. I would not ever want to be around this person either.

I think a person who has "lost their temper" deserves a chance. There is usually a reason and maybe it can be solved by discussing it.  If you can't get past the hurt to even talk then maybe you'll never get a second chance. It only gets harder to talk about with age...and longer to get over the hurt...

Just my opinion....

I agree with Chickie. My DIL is very rude and critical; she hates who we are and is looking for any excuse to cut us off. Although I would never take this treatment from anyone else, blood or no, I suck it up for DS's sake. We want contact with him, so we put up with her.

MILs are in a different position than DILs. If a DIL walks away from an abusive MIL, the DIL hasn't lost anything. She still has her DH, her DC, her FOO. If a MIL walks away from an abusive DIL, she loses DS and DGC. Quite often she's also blamed for the family losing DS, so she has to deal with the anger of her DH & other DC as well. It's quite devastating and life altering, whether you go or stay.

I think we need to really be honest about our feelings towards ILs and others...are these people mildly annoying and awkward or is continued contact with them really dangerous? Or something in between? If one is ever in physical danger, as in "I'd like to push you down the stairs," it's definitely time to go. If it's just that your MIL doesn't bake as well as your mom, or enjoys climbing a mountain more than going to the mall, that's silly.

An occasional breach of good behavior should also be overlooked and forgiven, as RedRose said. But, people who are looking for any excuse to be rid of someone will use this against them.

Penstamen,
Such true words...thank you.

Quote from: Postscript on April 07, 2010, 06:01:25 PM
Personally I don't think an inlaw relationship is any different to any relationship in our lives.  If you are empowered and strong you know how you should be treated.  Asking someone to suck it up and put up with someone because "that's just the way she is" is no different from telling a wife she should stay with a husband who abuses her.  Who among us would suggest that?

My answer to that's just the way she is, is that this is the way I am, I don't believe I deserve to be belittled and bullied, so I won't!  I wouldn't care if it was my mother in law or my son doing it.  Blood has nothing to do with it.

YES!  You have a way with words!  I absolutely refuse to take poor treatment from anyone whether they're related or not. 

Poor treatment (short of any abuse) can be worked on...if you want any kind of a relationship with that other person. If your willing to anything is possible.

But I also believe that family is the most important relationship in my life...my family is worth it.

RedRose both parties have to be willing to work on the relationship.  As the song goes, it takes two.  If the other party carries on with the same behavior, then you are rowing with one oar.

In my case, my mother in law treats her sons as if they are still 10, she is cut out of all her sons lives, at least 3 of us daughters in law have told her why.  She's been allowed back in several times and repeats the same exact behaviors of interfering and backstabbing.  It's been over 20 years, how long do you excuse that?  At what point should she be able to work out that she is cause in the matter and be prepared to make changes?

Quote from: Postscript on April 08, 2010, 05:09:04 PM
RedRose both parties have to be willing to work on the relationship.  As the song goes, it takes two.  If the other party carries on with the same behavior, then you are rowing with one oar.

In my case, my mother in law treats her sons as if they are still 10, she is cut out of all her sons lives, at least 3 of us daughters in law have told her why.  She's been allowed back in several times and repeats the same exact behaviors of interfering and backstabbing.  It's been over 20 years, how long do you excuse that?  At what point should she be able to work out that she is cause in the matter and be prepared to make changes?

You didn't address this to me but I hope you don't mind me answering.  Would you cut your own Mother out of your life? 
This always baffles me because in most cases the woman replies that her own Mother is just perfect and would never
do what your MIL does. 

If anyone has an answer to Postscript's questions then I'd love to know it, too. 

For Chickie....as far as my mom goes, she hasn't done anything to anger either my DH or I.  And if she did, I'd be the first to tell her to stop it ASAP.  I think that's one problem.  The DH's let the tension build to a breaking point before they try to do something and by then resentments exist. 

I did "take a break" or whatever you want to call it from an aunt for about 12 years.  She was addicted to pain pills but wouldn't admit it, and playing the charade of "ignore aunt B's weird behavior" became ridiculous.  I did restart a relationship with her after she finished rehab and had been sober 6 months.  It's a guarded one but maybe with time we'll progress to what we had.  I think that if things become emotionally draining and the person isn't willing to work with you to fix them to some mutually satisfying outcome, then you have to stop beating yourself up.  If and when things can be reexamined to reach an outcome you're both happy with, then go for it then, but until then, stop putting yourself in that situation.  It's not going to end well.

Maybe she doesn't feel she has to change...maybe she feels she is not the problem.

Quote from: clover on April 08, 2010, 05:19:09 PM
If anyone has an answer to Postscript's questions then I'd love to know it, too. 

For Chickie....as far as my mom goes, she hasn't done anything to anger either my DH or I.  And if she did, I'd be the first to tell her to stop it ASAP.  I think that's one problem.  The DH's let the tension build to a breaking point before they try to do something and by then resentments exist. 

I did "take a break" or whatever you want to call it from an aunt for about 12 years.  She was addicted to pain pills but wouldn't admit it, and playing the charade of "ignore aunt B's weird behavior" became ridiculous.  I did restart a relationship with her after she finished rehab and had been sober 6 months.  It's a guarded one but maybe with time we'll progress to what we had.  I think that if things become emotionally draining and the person isn't willing to work with you to fix them to some mutually satisfying outcome, then you have to stop beating yourself up.  If and when things can be reexamined to reach an outcome you're both happy with, then go for it then, but until then, stop putting yourself in that situation.  It's not going to end well.

Throwing people away because they have problems is something I can't wrap myself around.  I know that your Aunt is
sick....sick people need help, not to be thrown away.  I know that my first DIL told the second DIL that they needed to
band together against us.  This is when they first met.  I guess that says a lot.

It really goes back to having a son, which is not a good thing to have in our society.  His wife holds all the cards and in
her hands lies your future with your son.  It's sad but it's true and I envy those who have a great family.  It's all I ever
wanted.  Just a family, not fame, nothing....just people to love and to love me.

It has just about destroyed me.  I'm not the same person I used to be.  I hate that.  I hate that for me.  I feel like I had
a lot of love to give but she nipped that right in the bud.  For the contest.  She has 3 sons.  I wonder what her future
holds. 

Chickie yes I would and I have.  She once called my house at 7am and abused my husband until he hung up on her.  When she called back I answered.  She accused my husband of keeping me from her because when she'd called the night before I was asleep and my son told her that.  Because of that she decided that my husband was keeping me away from her and it all became his fault.  When I spoke to her she was completely unreasonable and I told her that, I work, I get tired and I have a life to live that means I am not at her beck and call.  I told her that was enough, she couldn't treat my husband that way and cut her off.  Eventually she came back and apologized.  Some months later.

This was a few years ago now, my husband doesn't want to deal with her and I make sure he doesn't have to.  She sees me maybe once a month, she comes over when my husband is at work and leaves before he gets home.  She's lost the freedom she once had.  And it's not a one off either, that was the last straw for my husband.  My mother has a history of aberrant behavior towards everyone.  She's a strange person, even her own parents couldn't handle her.  I think she has something not quite wired right.  She is elderly now and I am all she has, my brothers cut her off years ago, as did her sister and brother.  I take care of her out of duty but I have made it clear that if she is on her last chance.

Quote from: Postscript on April 08, 2010, 05:39:00 PM
Chickie yes I would and I have.  She once called my house at 7am and abused my husband until he hung up on her.  When she called back I answered.  She accused my husband of keeping me from her because when she'd called the night before I was asleep and my son told her that.  Because of that she decided that my husband was keeping me away from her and it all became his fault.  When I spoke to her she was completely unreasonable and I told her that, I work, I get tired and I have a life to live that means I am not at her beck and call.  I told her that was enough, she couldn't treat my husband that way and cut her off.  Eventually she came back and apologized.  Some months later.

This was a few years ago now, my husband doesn't want to deal with her and I make sure he doesn't have to.  She sees me maybe once a month, she comes over when my husband is at work and leaves before he gets home.  She's lost the freedom she once had.  And it's not a one off either, that was the last straw for my husband.  My mother has a history of aberrant behavior towards everyone.  She's a strange person, even her own parents couldn't handle her.  I think she has something not quite wired right.  She is elderly now and I am all she has, my brothers cut her off years ago, as did her sister and brother.  I take care of her out of duty but I have made it clear that if she is on her last chance.
[/quote

I'm really sorry to hear about that.  I don't have a mother but always thought if I did I'd never do anything to hurt her no matter what she did. I guess there are exceptions. I can't imagine but I've heard of it.  It seems so cut and dry to me.

Quote from: RedRose on April 08, 2010, 05:21:29 PM
Maybe she doesn't feel she has to change...maybe she feels she is not the problem.

I'm sorry but how many people have to cut you out of your life before you realize that you are the common denominator?  I am sure that is exactly how my mother in law feels, but it's not just one person, it's multiple people who are telling her the same thing and putting distance in their relationships with her.

Disclaimer: Not meaning you specifically RedRose, just couldn't make the question work without making it sound direct

I don't know what to tell you here...I have never had this experience.

I can say that when I did have disagreements with my mother or mil I would never cut them. In fact, I think cutting someone from your life is never an answer.
Maybe staying away for a while...to cool down and think about things.

Chickie it's not cut and dried.  Being a mother doesn't excuse us from treating others well and avoiding the consequences of treating them badly just because they are related.  If my mother wasn't my mother, I certainly wouldn't be her friend.  Both my mother and my mother in law get to have relationships with their children, simply because of a feeling of responsibility my husband and I both feel towards our mothers.  I would hate to have my children "suffer" me, the way I suffer my mother.

My husband happily puts up with my father and stepmother's eccentricities, he particularly enjoys being with my father, even though once many years ago, they had an argument that resulted in my father threatening to "punch him on the nose".  They sorted out their differences, shook hands and never brought it up again.  They happily potter around together working on home repairs, learning from each other about their different trades and have for over 20 years now.  I wish I could have that sort of relationship with my mother in law.

Being thrown away for any reason is sad, but that's the mind set these days. Don't help people get a grip, let 'em go! Don't help people do a better job, just fire them! Don't fix up that lovely old building, tear it down! No matter what "evil" we might be doing now as MILs, we gave birth to and nutured our sons. That's got to be worth something! My crime? I'm not a city-dwelling, mall shopping, money-mad success freak. Pardon me, and plow me under with the other old stuff.

When our DDD was diagnosed with learning disabilities, my dad and his wife couldn't handle it. They still can't deal with our dear disabled daughter. Maybe I should have put her in an institution to make everyone more comfortable. You know, she just doesn't "look right" in the family photos; ruins the illusion that we're all intellectually hot poo (degrees are everything in my family.)

I know I sound upset. I've never gotten a "minus" on this site until today, so something must be going on. I hope I earned it fair and square! :P

Postscript, regarding your statement about someone being a common denominator, sometimes (not always) it can be due to a mob mentality, like bullying. It spreads like a virus amongst a family or another group of people via snide comments and gossip until the one who is "the problem" is completely shunned, which just breeds more odd behavior. I know my behavior has changed since I started being treated poorly by DIL; I'm probably proving her point every time we get together!

Penstamen some people when attacked come out fighting and spitting, some back off.  I backed off and out.  If she wants a relationship with me, she's making no effort to have one.

Gosh, Penstamen, I got two minuses...so join the club.  I don't know even how to give one of those things.  I kind of know
who gave it so that's okay.

I think you're wonderful and that's what matters with me.  I know your DDD is perfect too, not a throw away at all.  I have
a friend who has 2 DDS's.  They are her babies and she loves them. They are perfect too.

Yep, when you're ganged up on, it's a no win situation.  You lose. I know you want a relationship with your DIL so much.

I know Postscript wishes she had a good one with her MIL.  I know that's all we all want.  All of us on this site want a good
relationship with either MILs or DILs.  That's why we're here.  People who really don't give two hoots and a holler don't
write on these forums. 

We're all hurting here.

Quote from: Postscript on April 08, 2010, 06:15:28 PM
Penstamen some people when attacked come out fighting and spitting, some back off.  I backed off and out.  If she wants a relationship with me, she's making no effort to have one.

I hope someday she will, Postscript. :)

Postscript, I understand what you mean. I just fold when attacked, and suck it up so we can continue to see DS. I hope you get a chance to mend your relationship, but you're right, it takes two. Best wishes.

Chickie, I feel like I lost my "thumbs down virginity." And I was always the good girl! LOL

At least you didn't get 2 minuses, Pen.   She must be REALLY mad at me!!

I don't know when I got mine  :(  I must be bad huh? 3 to 1 ?

We got them this evening.  We must be doing something right, Pen.  The good girls getting whacked!

How can I tell when I got mine? I didn't honestly notice until Penstamen noted hers.

You're hangin' with a tough crowd, Postscript ;) I'm not sure how to tell - I think it's all anonymous.

ooooh I feel like Sandy when she joined the pink ladies in Grease!

You got one too, Postscript?  You are a Pink Lady now!!  Somebody has got it in for us! 

LOL

Quote from: 2chickiebaby on April 08, 2010, 06:29:25 PM
At least you didn't get 2 minuses, Pen.   She must be REALLY mad at me!!

Someone popped in long enough to give me another minus!  It's okay. 

"Someone"
has shown her true colors. ;)

I hope this isn't directed at me.  I don't do the negatives, and it seems I have one too, even though I wasn't involved in your arguing last night.  When I came through, I was replying to some PM's I received through my email, and wrote some.  I would think if you know you are not respectful to others, you would be watching for negatives too, but that's just my opinion.  I really thought more of this site than all this and am disappointed that this went on here.

I still would like to thank many of you for support and understanding.  I guess another woman was right when she said to me on her way out, "one bad apple can really spoil the barrel."  I've learned my lesson.  Thank you.

If it's alright with the group, I'd like to once again go back the very important issue that was brought up originally about when it is enough.

I was reading a book on boundaries also (although written by Drs. Cloud and Townsend) and they were talking about how to deal with people who are hurting you. Since the whole point of boundaries in their book is that you cannot and should not control how another person acts and the only thing to really control is what you do, then if a person is hurting you, the only thing you can do is remove yourself from the situation so that you are no longer being hurt. So I really don't view that as shutting the other person out, I see it as me walking away until the behavior that hurts me is no longer being done.

Penstamen, I know what you mean about the more you feel bullied, the weirder the behavior gets. I felt that way with my MIL. I am naturally a very cheerful person who loves to talk to anyone who will listen and who loves to help anyone who is in need. However, after my MIL started acting strange with me, I became very fearful and would seclude myself in my bedroom (since she lives with us). I wouldn't talk around her or say that I was sick or tired (bad pregnancy) because she would make me feel like it was my fault. About 4 months after my son was born, and after repeated things that happened, I changed from scared to angry, and I stopped saying good morning to her or even talking to her. My husband was shocked because he knows that I'm not like that, but I couldn't help it. Then she left for almost a year, and when she came back, everything was much better. I'm no longer scared or angry, but the truth is that I can't fully forget everything that happened. Although I'm sad to say this, I don't think I will ever feel for her what I used to feel (I believed in the whole Ruth/Naomi relationship, but not anymore).

However, when she's having a good day and being very nice, we can have a nice conversation, and I'll even take her out to lunch and what not, but when she starts acting up again, sometimes I feel myself withdrawing into either the scared or angry person. I'm working on that because that is not a good thing to do. We can't let how others behave control how we react (I believe it's called codependency in the book I was reading). But these bad habits take time to overcome, just like everything else.

Quote from: clover on April 07, 2010, 09:34:02 AM
Chickie's post got me thinking....when is it ok to say enough?

She said her friend was cut off for the silliest little reason.  Which reasons are OK and which ones are silly?  I think most of us would agree cutting off someone who is physically or sexually abusive is ok.  What about verbally?  And when does it go from "lost their temper" to "verbally abusive"? 

While you all have been so accepting, I am "one of those girls".  My DH and I haven't seen his parents in 2 1/2 years.  And I wonder if our reasons would be considered valid or silly.  And if it's hurting her son and DIL so much, is the reason really silly?  I'm just interested in getting your perspective on the whole thing.

Hi There,

I'm going to chime in this one, b/c I used the word silly...when applying it to the problems with my DIL.
When I started to change my attitude about this whole thing, meaning, let go of blame, and realized, I was responsible for my own pain during all of this...and I'm talking about me, no one else here...so, while your all reading this, please remember, this was my experience....

To make a long story short, in the end, before, my DIL and I reconciled, I kept thinking how silly a lot of this stuff really was.  It's like a situation that when it happens, gets you really upset, or angry, hurt or embarrassed, however, years down the road, you can look back and say, "That really wasn't so bad"  is the concept I'm trying to relay...and that is what happened to me...she misperceived my actions, I misperceived her actions...from the very beginning...trust and respect was lost....and each little thing that happened after that, was perceived wrong, and escalated the situation to a new all time horrible disaster.  It sometimes, not all the time, takes two to tango....and when I started realizing this, accepting it, and forgiving, along with apologizing...and by the way, when I apologized, my DIL told me something that I did...and I couldn't believe I did it...I wouldn't have done it an anyone else's home, I was a guest in her home, and how dare I do that...well, I cannot imagine how hurt and unhappy she was....I hope she and I, can look back, and say to ourselves, those things were so silly...and they were....it is all about how we perceive the actions of others, and when things go south, we as humans tend to take the actions of others, as a personal attack even more so...b/c we've made up our minds, that person hates us or is no good, or has set out to destroy our relationships with other family members...again, please know, that I'm not talking to anyone here in this forum, I'm simply sharing my experience, and my perception of what happened....with my DIL and I. 

So, yes, when we resolve things between us, regardless of who the other person involved is...a lot of times, we can look back on that disagreement as silly, and realize, it was more important to me then, to be right, then it was to try and view things from her point of view...or even talk to her about things right then and there....wich I didn't do....so, it was fear led, and magnified a thousand times, until it was almost to the point of ruin....I even cut them out of my life for 3 years...because I wanted to do what was best for all of us, and I knew, they were fighting over me....I didn't want that...more then anything...

So, the big things today, in some cases, might become very small things tomorrow, it's all in how we handle situations with other people....I believe respect also assumes responsibility for oneself, in letting people know what your uncomfortable with.  By saying nothing, escalates things  beyond the norm...and leaves the mind open to all kinds of assumptions....

So, while touching your belly may be a huge thing now, may down the road, 30 years from now, be something you might find comical, b/c I will tell you this, no matter who you are or where your from, as you grow older, your perspectives do and will change....that is life....we evolve with change and grow with the education of life....

Quote from: penstamen on April 08, 2010, 06:02:12 PM
No matter what "evil" we might be doing now as MILs, we gave birth to and nutured our sons. That's got to be worth something!

This- this statement right here- is the core of the disagreement IMHO. 

***PLEASE note that I'm not directing this at you.  Your DIL sounds like a snob.

But it is this line of thinking that makes a lot of people cross the line over and over.  My DH's whacko cousin repeatedly destroys family get-togethers b/c she assumes that she'll be invited back regardless b/c she's family.  My SIL (DH's sister) always borrows and destroys things and never apologizes b/c she's family after all (well, not anymore, DH and I have an agreement NEVER  to lend her anything again). I won't even get started on my aunt- I could write a book on her.....

I'm not talking about shunning someone b/c they don't make a lot of money, or have a big house or belong to the right clubs.  But when someone- REGARDLESS of their role in giving someone life- repeatedly and deliberately tries to hurt you, I believe you'd be doing yourself a great disservice if you didn't dump them.

So, my point is- again NOT directed at you- giving someone life doesn't give anyone a free pass to act without consequences. 

QuoteCarmexx

However, when she's having a good day and being very nice, we can have a nice conversation, and I'll even take her out to lunch and what not, but when she starts acting up again, sometimes I feel myself withdrawing into either the scared or angry person. I'm working on that because that is not a good thing to do. We can't let how others behave control how we react (I believe it's called codependency in the book I was reading). But these bad habits take time to overcome, just like everything else.

When you withdrew, and I'm responding to this, by putting myself in your place...when Your MIL, first started acting weird...yes, it scared you, b/c you were not used to being treated like that, talked to like that, or even witnessing that kind of behavior (she definately crossed over boundaries)...so, the hurt must have been overwhelming, not to mention the confusion....however, while your situation is magnified, that is exactly what happens in any relationship...two different cultures, coming together...she was used to acting like that and you were not used to being treated like that...however, she probably figured, since she got away with it for so many years, and maybe even since childhood, b/c her parents spoiled her or couldn't deal with disiplining her, she developed this character which she thought everyone else understood, or just allowed her to be that way, without calling her on her bahavior and saying..."Hey, that's wrong, you can't treat people like that!" 

But, yes, I can certainly understand your hesitancy, b/c trust was broken when she treated you like that...and however people treat you, is the way your going to remember them....it's your last memory of her, therefore, it will take time and work on both of your parts, especially hers, to feel completely comfortable with her again....however, I would start speaking up....not in a mean or condiscending way, but in a way, that informs them of who you are....I believe, that is our responsibility, to let people know, "hey, this is hurting me, or I'm uncomfortable with this or that"....and that in itself is respect for our own self being...perhaps down the road, we will change our thoughts about it, but for now, this is who I am....?"

and please know, these are simply thoughts running through my head, I'm not saying you should be this way or that, or directing this toward you, the original poster...but, it's what your words brought to my mind....and who I am...and how I think, which isn't right all of the time...so, I'm open for discussion if you so wish. 

Creme

Quote from: cremebrulee on April 09, 2010, 06:16:51 AM

QuoteCarmexx

However, when she's having a good day and being very nice, we can have a nice conversation, and I'll even take her out to lunch and what not, but when she starts acting up again, sometimes I feel myself withdrawing into either the scared or angry person. I'm working on that because that is not a good thing to do. We can't let how others behave control how we react (I believe it's called codependency in the book I was reading). But these bad habits take time to overcome, just like everything else.

When you withdrew, and I'm responding to this, by putting myself in your place...when Your MIL, first started acting weird...yes, it scared you, b/c you were not used to being treated like that, talked to like that, or even witnessing that kind of behavior (she definitely crossed over boundaries)...so, the hurt must have been overwhelming, not to mention the confusion....however, while your situation is magnified, that is exactly what happens in any relationship...two different cultures, coming together...she was used to acting like that and you were not used to being treated like that...however, she probably figured, since she got away with it for so many years, and maybe even since childhood, b/c her parents spoiled her or couldn't deal with disiplining her, she developed this character which she thought everyone else understood, or just allowed her to be that way, without calling her on her bahavior and saying..."Hey, that's wrong, you can't treat people like that!" 

But, yes, I can certainly understand your hesitancy, b/c trust was broken when she treated you like that...and however people treat you, is the way your going to remember them....it's your last memory of her, therefore, it will take time and work on both of your parts, especially hers, to feel completely comfortable with her again....however, I would start speaking up....not in a mean or condiscending way, but in a way, that informs them of who you are....I believe, that is our responsibility, to let people know, "hey, this is hurting me, or I'm uncomfortable with this or that"....and that in itself is respect for our own self being...perhaps down the road, we will change our thoughts about it, but for now, this is who I am....?"

and please know, these are simply thoughts running through my head, I'm not saying you should be this way or that, or directing this toward you, the original poster...but, it's what your words brought to my mind....and who I am...and how I think, which isn't right all of the time...so, I'm open for discussion if you so wish. 

Creme

This is what happened to me when DIL and son first married.  He and she lived here for a few weeks. It was awful.  She had
a dog who was more like a horse.  Sweet dog but honestly, it took over the entire house, on the furniture and making our
little dog go crazy. 

She was so rude, RUDE.  Everytime she was rude, she'd run to son and because our other son was still here, he could here here
through the walls telling son, "you're going to back me up, aren't  you?"

I mean really, there was NO NEED in her acting this way.  Her parents would not let them live with them because of
the horse/dog. 

It's not right to go into someone else's house and treat the owners as your servants.  There's so much more but I'm get
so tired of this whole diatribe that goes nowhere I don't know what to do.  Suffice it to say, she hit us up side the head and
is nicer now but really, you can still ask her something (totally benign) and she will wait 30 seconds to answer you.  What is
up with that??  It freaks you out.

I would also like to say to the original poster...I counciled with our minister on this subject, my real mother was very abusive, and a user...she never says anything nice about anyone, she really hates everyone, because she dislikes herself emensly....she is illogical, and doesn't have anything good to say about anyone.  No one and I mean no one can stand being around her....it's very sad, she has no friends or family...really, just me...and no matter what I do for her, she talks about me to others about how horrible I am....but I don't care...I have no expecations anymore...she is simply a human being who cannot help herself along.  So many people are amazed that I do go back and help her when she calls, but she has no one...do I hate her for what she did, no, b/c I know, mentally, she did the best that she knew how...she was the way she was b/c of the way she was raised, and I'm certain, being her sister is just like her, and her other sister committed suicide...that there is a degree of mental illness in the family.

I can't change her....and I can't change the past, however, the past is long gone, and I've got to forgive her...that doesn't mean, I don't remember from time to time....and let me tell you, it is very very difficult to do that, when I am around her....and I do slide, loose my patience and yell at her....and then leave and ask myself, "Now why did you do that?"  So, it's a constant work in progress....

When is enough, enough?  My mother not only physically abused me, but did not report my uncle for sexually abusing me and my cousins....is it difficult to accept that?  It used to be....very difficult, but something inside of me, cannot leave her to fend for herself alone.

I am not suggesting that anyone take physical or verbal abuse, we each have our own threasholds...and levels of how much we can withstand...believe me, I could never ever have my mother come and live with me....that would be the end of me, mentally I fear....however, I'll deal with it tomorrow....

right now, this very moment, I want peace in my life, as everyone does...so, we each have to choose to do what is best for our own well being...however, once we make that decission, please know, we have to live with the consequences of our decissions and choices....so, we must ask ourselves, can we live with the results of our actions?

I cut my son, DIL and grand daughter off for 3 years....or almost 3 years...and it was the most God awful hardest things I've ever done...hard to accept, to live with, to wake up every day with, and go to sleep at night with. 

What I'm saying is, and this is just me, I cannot speak for anyone else here....I couldn't live with myself, knowing I'd abandoned my mother completely....

Just as I couldn't go on with the situation with my son and DIL as it was....there are times when I know, I am going to have to suck it up and apologize, even though, I've felt I hadn't done something that was wrong....why you say?  Because seeing them, having them in my life, was more important to me, then being right....I was sick and tired of the pain, grief and loss....which didn't have to be...so, that is something everyone should ask themselves before making a decission....can I live with it?  And then follow your intuition....however, as you grow older, your priorities do change, and you will be able to look back and see if your decissions were justified or not.  And when it speaks in the Bible about judgement day...I do firmly believe, our very own consciense will be our own judge...b/c I've known personally the pain of guilt, and guilt can surely be destructive to oneself....so, I learned a long time ago....to try and live my life to the best of my ability...even if that means, sucking it up now and then...it's given me freedom....and has also taught me there are many more important things in life, then being right.  In my heart, God knows and I know, and no words have to be spoken other then that. 

Chickie, I don't know if this helps, however, when my son was young, he had a friend, who was as much a part of our family as my son...he had his own room, etc...now, when we were discussing something tragic, sad, or talking about a family member who was in trouble..."he used to laugh"??????  Honestly, he'd laugh and it would thoroughly annoy me....I  asked my now ex, what was up with that and he said, "Because it's the only way he knows how to deal with it...he's not laughting at the situation, he is simply responding to it, the only way he knows how". 

In your DIL's case...here is an example....I've noted that President Obama does the same thing, when someone asks him a questions him, he doesn't respond right away...he waits and thinks about his response....sometimes for a full minute or longer....and my son was taught to do that....in the police training....sometimes when we humans do that, we are collecting our thoughts and searching for a right answer.....or what we think is the right answer.  Perhaps that is what she is doing...I really and honestly do not believe she is doing it to hurt you...or it is against you...maybe since so much time has passed, she is trying Chickie, and she is thinking about what she is saying so that she doesn't go with her first response, but is thinking thru what she is going to say, so as not to add coals to the fire?  Does that make sense?

Chickie - my husband does the 30 second pause before he answers too - it drives me up the wall!

But here's what I figured out, he doesn't think like me, not nearly as quickly, but almost as if he thinks in pictures or something, and then he has to "translate" his picture-thoughts into words and then get them out.  And, he seems to be stuck that way to the extent that he can't even tell you WHY he's taking so long to answer.

So I just cut him some slack and try to be patient - sadly, I don't always succeed.

Quote from: Scoop on April 09, 2010, 09:30:02 AM
Chickie - my husband does the 30 second pause before he answers too - it drives me up the wall!

But here's what I figured out, he doesn't think like me, not nearly as quickly, but almost as if he thinks in pictures or something, and then he has to "translate" his picture-thoughts into words and then get them out.  And, he seems to be stuck that way to the extent that he can't even tell you WHY he's taking so long to answer.

So I just cut him some slack and try to be patient - sadly, I don't always succeed.

Thank you, Scoop....maybe that's what it is with her.  She's thinking?

Quote from: cremebrulee on April 09, 2010, 08:59:54 AM

Chickie, I don't know if this helps, however, when my son was young, he had a friend, who was as much a part of our family as my son...he had his own room, etc...now, when we were discussing something tragic, sad, or talking about a family member who was in trouble..."he used to laugh"??????  Honestly, he'd laugh and it would thoroughly annoy me....I  asked my now ex, what was up with that and he said, "Because it's the only way he knows how to deal with it...he's not laughting at the situation, he is simply responding to it, the only way he knows how". 

In your DIL's case...here is an example....I've noted that President Obama does the same thing, when someone asks him a questions him, he doesn't respond right away...he waits and thinks about his response....sometimes for a full minute or longer....and my son was taught to do that....in the police training....sometimes when we humans do that, we are collecting our thoughts and searching for a right answer.....or what we think is the right answer.  Perhaps that is what she is doing...I really and honestly do not believe she is doing it to hurt you...or it is against you...maybe since so much time has passed, she is trying Chickie, and she is thinking about what she is saying so that she doesn't go with her first response, but is thinking thru what she is going to say, so as not to add coals to the fire?  Does that make sense?

Yes, it does...thank you, Creme.

We, as humans let alone as DILs or MILs or FILs, deserve common courtesy. It's called being civil to another human on the planet.

My DIL & her family wouldn't treat an animal the way they treat us. And yes, Doormat, raising a son that DIL would consider worthy of marriage should be worth something. Not everything, not the only thing, but small "s" something, just as our DSs choosing our DILs as worthy should be worth something - again, not everything or the only thing. We shouldn't have to give in to her every demand or put up with rudeness simply because she married DS. However, what I feel the big issue here is: MILs often suck it up because they want to see their sons. DILs can walk away and lose nothing.

Doormat, I understand you didn't direct your post at me, but I felt I had to respond.

I've read through the whole thread.   Regarding thumbs up and thumbs down: I personally don't like them and would like them to be eliminated. If you are writing/sharing in a thread, I don't think it's any one's place to evaluate them as a plus or minus. I don't see them as an agree or disagree, but as an evaluation of the content.


Regarding cutting off: If someone, no matter who, in a relationship continually hurts, interferes and causes harm, they should be cut off. I feel that no one should have to put up with that, no matter if it's a parent, inlaw, relative or friend. I don't feel this should be a first resort, but a last resort.  If the person hurting you does not stop, after being told, why should you (generic you) put up with them? I really feel that people should be given a chance, but there is that part of the population that does not care to learn and does not care that you are hurt. Cut them off and don't look back.

Only the person in the situation can evaluate if their life is better with or without that person in it. Life is too short to put up with nonsense.

You can give me as many minuses as you want. I find them irrelevant.

Meryl :)

Meryl, what if cutting off DIL means never seeing DS?

After being in therapy, I came to a revelation that shook me to the core. Here it is:

Just because a person is a parent, that doesn't mean he/she is a good person.


Really. All it means is a sperm hit an egg. I can't tell you how profound this revelation was in my own life. No longer was it something must be wrong with me, why would a parent do that to me?

It wasn't me.

IT WASN'T ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because a person is a parent that doesn't mean he/she is a good person. It means they are human, not superhuman, and have faults, and some may even be toxic.

Profound.
Meryl  :)

OK, if you have really awful parents you cut them off. I guess - my dad was pretty awful, no physical abuse but a real narcissist who walked out on the family. I haven't cut him off, but whatever.

What if you have a really great kid, and your really great kid thinks you are really great parents, but the woman he marries wants to get rid of you so she treats you horribly? I don't want to lose my really great kid, and he doesn't want to lose us. I can't cut off the DIL without cutting off the really great kid. What then?

Dear Meryl, the world is not black and white. :)

Pen, only you can determine what your course should be. Can you try to distance yourself from her antics and not let them affect you? Your goal is to see your son - can you put yourself in a psychic bubble that she can't penetrate? You can't change her, you can only change yourself and the way you deal with her. This is so hard.  Why can't the sons just visit the FOO without the wives?

Quote from: penstamen on April 09, 2010, 11:51:50 AM
OK, if you have really awful parents you cut them off. I guess - my dad was pretty awful, no physical abuse but a real narcissist who walked out on the family. I haven't cut him off, but whatever.

What if you have a really great kid, and your really great kid thinks you are really great parents, but the woman he marries wants to get rid of you so she treats you horribly? I don't want to lose my really great kid, and he doesn't want to lose us. I can't cut off the DIL without cutting off the really great kid. What then?

Dear Meryl, the world is not black and white. :)

I agree Pen, cuz you know, if you cut her off, you'll be cutting him off as well....and if you cut her off, you've got to be able to live with that...I can't tell you how hard it was for me to do that....awful.....

Quote from: Meryl on April 09, 2010, 11:53:32 AM
Why can't the sons just visit the FOO without the wives?

I do know a lot of sons who do that Meryl...however, they are married to mature women who encourage them to spend quality time with they're mothers....they are women who have a sense of what family and parents are...like I've said so many times before....I've never known anyone who had severe problems with inlaws, until my situation...it just didn't happen.  I mean, you always have family politics, however, a lot of things are ignored, instead of taking offense or as a personal attack....now I know not every situation is the same, but I also feel, there are many relationships out there that could also be worked out.  No one here is asking for the DIL's to love them, they are just asking for some quality time with they're sons....and if the DIL's come along, while a guest in the MIL's home, they should be decent, and visa versa, when the MIL goes to the DIL's home, the same respect should be offered. 

I'd also like to add, that the wife who doesn't encourage a husband to see his family, who needs to be there with him constantly 24/7 and won't give him any quality time on his own, is a very controlling woman, you cannot be joined at the hip and smother each other, everyone needs they're own space and time....I used to enjoy it when my husband spent time with his mother, he would stop by once a week for dinner.....gave me a break from rushing home and cooking dinner, and some quality time to go for a walk, with my son and share some quality time with him....or take him out for dinner...whatever, but, to smother your husband and keep him from his family is just plain wrong, and tells me there are some behavior issues there that need counseling....

Quote from: 2chickiebaby on April 09, 2010, 06:29:57 AM

Quote from: cremebrulee on April 09, 2010, 06:16:51 AM

QuoteCarmexx

However, when she's having a good day and being very nice, we can have a nice conversation, and I'll even take her out to lunch and what not, but when she starts acting up again, sometimes I feel myself withdrawing into either the scared or angry person. I'm working on that because that is not a good thing to do. We can't let how others behave control how we react (I believe it's called codependency in the book I was reading). But these bad habits take time to overcome, just like everything else.

When you withdrew, and I'm responding to this, by putting myself in your place...when Your MIL, first started acting weird...yes, it scared you, b/c you were not used to being treated like that, talked to like that, or even witnessing that kind of behavior (she definitely crossed over boundaries)...so, the hurt must have been overwhelming, not to mention the confusion....however, while your situation is magnified, that is exactly what happens in any relationship...two different cultures, coming together...she was used to acting like that and you were not used to being treated like that...however, she probably figured, since she got away with it for so many years, and maybe even since childhood, b/c her parents spoiled her or couldn't deal with disiplining her, she developed this character which she thought everyone else understood, or just allowed her to be that way, without calling her on her bahavior and saying..."Hey, that's wrong, you can't treat people like that!" 

But, yes, I can certainly understand your hesitancy, b/c trust was broken when she treated you like that...and however people treat you, is the way your going to remember them....it's your last memory of her, therefore, it will take time and work on both of your parts, especially hers, to feel completely comfortable with her again....however, I would start speaking up....not in a mean or condiscending way, but in a way, that informs them of who you are....I believe, that is our responsibility, to let people know, "hey, this is hurting me, or I'm uncomfortable with this or that"....and that in itself is respect for our own self being...perhaps down the road, we will change our thoughts about it, but for now, this is who I am....?"

and please know, these are simply thoughts running through my head, I'm not saying you should be this way or that, or directing this toward you, the original poster...but, it's what your words brought to my mind....and who I am...and how I think, which isn't right all of the time...so, I'm open for discussion if you so wish. 

Creme

This is what happened to me when DIL and son first married.  He and she lived here for a few weeks. It was awful.  She had
a dog who was more like a horse.  Sweet dog but honestly, it took over the entire house, on the furniture and making our
little dog go crazy. 

She was so rude, RUDE.  Everytime she was rude, she'd run to son and because our other son was still here, he could here here
through the walls telling son, "you're going to back me up, aren't  you?"

I mean really, there was NO NEED in her acting this way.  Her parents would not let them live with them because of
the horse/dog. 

It's not right to go into someone else's house and treat the owners as your servants.  There's so much more but I'm get
so tired of this whole diatribe that goes nowhere I don't know what to do.  Suffice it to say, she hit us up side the head and
is nicer now but really, you can still ask her something (totally benign) and she will wait 30 seconds to answer you.  What is
up with that??  It freaks you out.

I can't imagine, walking into someone else's home and acting like that Chickie??  What ever happend to the words gracious?  Thankful to have a home?

I remember when my husband and I first got married, we lived with his parents....they were very nice and all, but there was no privacy, and being we were living with them, gave them an unspoken entitlement to our private affairs, financial and otherwise.  It's not a good situation...however, I always tried to be helpful and give them privacy by going to our room....and I would never overstep boundaries in they're home....there were some good times to, I'm just shocked at the entitlement your DIL owns....

 :)  I do understand the world isn't just black and white.   I was just sharing something important in my life - I just had such poor self esteem. My father wasn't superhuman, and it wasn't my fault he acted in such not nice ways to me. 

I guess it could be black/white if the person is so truly toxic. It's that middle ground when everyone seems to be misunderstood that the picture becomes cloudier.

Pen, I hope your son comes to a place of strength where he can see you, without his wife if that what it takes. He needs to get through to her that love multiplies, not divides, and he loves her no less if he also loves his parents.

Meryl :)

Meryl, I don't know why we can't see him without her. I'd love some time to talk and hang out. He's talkative and more like himself when she's not around. She won't allow it, apparently, since he only calls us when she's not there and has only seen us three times in two years without her.

One thing I must make clear - we're very nice people. We  live in a rural, artsy sort of atmosphere, but enjoy attending events in the city. We have friends (DIL doesn't like them, but oh well.) We are not criminals; we have jobs and own our home. We are valued and trusted members of our community. We were good parents & good providers. Our children grew up in a loving, accepting home with lots of experiences and intellectual stimulation. We don't hover, don't offer advice, don't demand their presence on holidays, don't criticise. We give awesome gifts. We paid for our share of their wedding expenses, at great personal sacrifice, as well as DS's education and living expenses through college..way more than DH or I got from our folks, BTW.

I think we're worthy of respect and courtesy, but you're right - we can't change DIL, we can only change how we deal with her rudeness. We suck it up and and smile...we never say anything & we pretend we don't hear her snide comments or notice her rude behavior. We refuse to be passive-aggressive towards her, for example we spend the same amount on her that we do our own children at birthdays and holidays. We always ask DS what she wants so we are sure to get it right. She certainly doesn't give us the same consideration, but as DH always says, "We do what feels right to us, and she has that same freedom."

The phenomenon of DIL's criticism of us getting through to DS is fairly new, but I can see it starting. Other MILs on this site have mentioned it happening to them, but I thought we were safe because our DS was standing up to DIL & her family. Lately he's seemed to be less supportive of us and sounds more like them. I think the constant  input from DIL does have an effect. She's already let it be known we'll not be involved GPs.

Quote from: penstamen on April 09, 2010, 12:37:55 PM
Meryl, I don't know why we can't see him without her. I'd love some time to talk and hang out. He's talkative and more like himself when she's not around. She won't allow it, apparently, since he only calls us when she's not there and has only seen us three times in two years without her.

One thing I must make clear - we're very nice people. We  live in a rural, artsy sort of atmosphere, but enjoy attending events in the city. We have friends (DIL doesn't like them, but oh well.) We are not criminals; we have jobs and own our home. We are valued and trusted members of our community. We were good parents & good providers. Our children grew up in a loving, accepting home with lots of experiences and intellectual stimulation. We don't hover, don't offer advice, don't demand their presence on holidays, don't criticise. We give awesome gifts. We paid for our share of their wedding expenses, at great personal sacrifice, as well as DS's education and living expenses through college..way more than DH or I got from our folks, BTW.

I think we're worthy of respect and courtesy, but you're right - we can't change DIL, we can only change how we deal with her rudeness. We suck it up and and smile...we never say anything & we pretend we don't hear her snide comments or notice her rude behavior. We refuse to be passive-aggressive towards her, for example we spend the same amount on her that we do our own children at birthdays and holidays. We always ask DS what she wants so we are sure to get it right. She certainly doesn't give us the same consideration, but as DH always says, "We do what feels right to us, and she has that same freedom."

The phenomenon of DIL's criticism of us getting through to DS is fairly new, but I can see it starting. Other MILs on this site have mentioned it happening to them, but I thought we were safe because our DS was standing up to DIL & her family. Lately he's seemed to be less supportive of us and sounds more like them. I think the constant  input from DIL does have an effect. She's already let it be known we'll not be involved GPs.

Pen, I hate to tell you this but more and more his words will become her words....like he is moving his mouth and her words
are inserted.  It is very hard to take.  I've been at this longer than you. 

The bottom line is, that the only person you can change is yourself.  If you get to the point where another persons behavior is unacceptable to you, you can let them know.  If they don't alter that behavior, I guess that altering yours is the only other option.

If that means cutting someone out of your life, that is what you do.

I agree.  The only person you can change is yourself.  Most of the time changing your own view is all that's necessary.

And yes, I cut someone out of my life that had the big "f" (family) association.  And if I had the chace to change that, I would not.  It took a few years, but was worth it.  It changed their association with my children and I too, but that needed to change or end...  That was my "enough!"

I'm happy I did.

Coco I liken it to divorce, better one happy parent than two unhappy parents.

I think children pick up on the strain in a relationship, despite our best efforts.  They'll soon notice that their grandmother makes their mother unhappy and vice versa.  They will wonder why and they will pick a side, children always do because they see life in far more black and white terms than adults.

Quote from: penstamen on April 09, 2010, 12:37:55 PM
Meryl, I don't know why we can't see him without her. I'd love some time to talk and hang out. He's talkative and more like himself when she's not around. She won't allow it, apparently, since he only calls us when she's not there and has only seen us three times in two years without her.

One thing I must make clear - we're very nice people. We  live in a rural, artsy sort of atmosphere, but enjoy attending events in the city. We have friends (DIL doesn't like them, but oh well.) We are not criminals; we have jobs and own our home. We are valued and trusted members of our community. We were good parents & good providers. Our children grew up in a loving, accepting home with lots of experiences and intellectual stimulation. We don't hover, don't offer advice, don't demand their presence on holidays, don't criticise. We give awesome gifts. We paid for our share of their wedding expenses, at great personal sacrifice, as well as DS's education and living expenses through college..way more than DH or I got from our folks, BTW.

I think we're worthy of respect and courtesy, but you're right - we can't change DIL, we can only change how we deal with her rudeness. We suck it up and and smile...we never say anything & we pretend we don't hear her snide comments or notice her rude behavior. We refuse to be passive-aggressive towards her, for example we spend the same amount on her that we do our own children at birthdays and holidays. We always ask DS what she wants so we are sure to get it right. She certainly doesn't give us the same consideration, but as DH always says, "We do what feels right to us, and she has that same freedom."

The phenomenon of DIL's criticism of us getting through to DS is fairly new, but I can see it starting. Other MILs on this site have mentioned it happening to them, but I thought we were safe because our DS was standing up to DIL & her family. Lately he's seemed to be less supportive of us and sounds more like them. I think the constant  input from DIL does have an effect. She's already let it be known we'll not be involved GPs.

Pen, after reading this beautiful post of confidence and love....I thought of something, perhaps she is so jealous of you, b/c she wants to be you and doesn't know how to...she wants to be just like you.  Pen, she married your son...so that accounts for a whole lot of what you did and how you raised him....she fears rejection, so she rejects you first...?  I'm not sticking up for her, but while reading your words, I thought, this young woman is probably so insecure, and wants your son's love all to herself...perhaps it's the first time she has ever been loved...as I read all the posts of everyone here, it comes to mind how kind hearted and loving everyone is...maybe some DIL's want so much to be like us, b/c they see the love your son has for you...and want that admiration and respect.  They don't understand that your son loves her more in a different way....

Children will always love they're parents no matter what plays out, it is a proven fact that even abused children will  love and respect they're parents...

Perhaps she feels like she started this and she has to keep playing it out, otherwise, it would be to her an admition of ownership in this?  But more then anything, maybe she wants to be a part of your family more then your aware of...? 

Does that make any sense?

Creme

Creme,
I can see what you mean...I remember when our son's friend died, young, in his 20's.  It was so sad the way the DIL was
acting.  Son was attentive to his parents and DIL was fuming because he wasn't paying attention to her.

I found that so pitiful.  She was insecure, I can see that now but back then, I couldn't believe my eyes.  She even said while
at his parent's home, "why is he not paying attention to me!"

I know she is very insecure so seeing us interact might have been too much for her.  Small consolation to us, though.

I hope you'll keep us posted on when you get to see your DIL...how it goes and what all happens. 

"Children will always love they're parents no matter what plays out, it is a proven fact that even abused children will  love and respect they're parents..."

That is so true.  When my parents got divorced and my father was with my stepmother family legend has it that my soon to be stepsister said to me, "my mommy is your daddy's girlfriend" to which I responded "my daddy doesn't need a girlfriend, he has a wife!"

Despite the fact it was horrible at home with my father and mother together, I wanted my family intact.  I didn't want the upheaval and despite my mother's abominable treatment of myself and my brothers, I loved her.

Thank you for saying that.....thank you for saying that children love their parents.  It mean everything to me.

I had a terribly abusive father.....he married 4 times after my mother died.  I wanted him to love me but he didn't. 

I would sit for hours trying to figure out how to make him say, "hello" to me.  Nothing worked.

Chickie when I had my son, I had the hardest time even looking at my mother.  All I could think was how much I loved this little scrap and all I wanted to do was love him and look out for him.  It made me realise that there was something terribly wrong with my mother for being able to hurt all 3 of her children so easily.  She was both physically and mentally abusive.  She told me that my father replaced me with my stepsister and didn't need me any more.  She hit me with a belt, broke a plate over my head and she had errr housekeeping issues.

It made me wonder if she ever loved me and my brothers?

It made me question whether she was deserving of my love?

I do think my mother loves me in her own fashion.  It's flawed and far from perfect.  I understand now that she was jealous of our showing love to anyone else, including me loving my father.  It took me a long time to come to terms with that.  She cannot understand the facility we all have for loving people in individual ways.  She also has a really bad temper!  She has never gotten over the fact her parents loved her siblings too.  She cannot stand not to be the focus of the individual attention of anyone she is with. 

I don't know if what I have for her is love now, I don't much enjoy her company either.  I think it is responsibility I feel for her.  I do know that somewhere along the line, I gave up the idea of her showing me love and affection.  I stopped wanting to please her. 

I was lucky with my father.  He wasn't physically demonstrative but I always knew he loved me, he told me he was proud of me and I strived to never disappoint him and the trust he had for me. 

At the risk of picking at a scab so to speak.  Is it possible that the lack of regard your father showed toward you and your feelings, is the heart of your issues with your dils?  I expect like me you found having your children's complete devotion and love (and children do give this initially) a balm to the wounds your father inflicted.  As they have grown and moved on (as children do) they have been able to give less of themselves to you.  I suspect somewhere in there is a fledgling chickiebaby who just wants to sit on her Daddy's lap and be told she is loved unconditionally just because she is his daughter.

If so, that lil chickie needs to be recognised, her frustrations need to be spoken and she needs a direction for her lack of nurture.  Would it be worth bringing this up at your counseling session so that poor little girl can find the love she needs? 

I'm not crying....I'm sobbing.  Yes, I'm sure that not being loved is what this is all about.  When I had my family, here, all
of us. I was whole and well.

I only want to know if my kids still love me.  That's all this is about.  I don't want to run their lives, control their lives,
anything like that.  Just want to know that they still love me.  Yes, they have moved on but the whispers about me that I've seen
the DILs do, makes them view me differently.  It has broken me and I am that little child still sitting for hours trying to get
my father to speak to me.

Imagine...I tried everything.  Nothing worked, nothing I said.  I wasn't clever enough to make him speak to me. I said
once, "why don't you say, "hi" to me, Daddy?   He wouldn't answer.

Chickie hon that was your Dad's problem not yours, his inadequacy and he is to blame for it.  Remember holding your sons as babies? That all encompassing feeling of love for them?  A father's love is just as strong, there is nothing my husband wouldn't do for our children.  When he held our son for the first time, I remember the wonder and emotion in his voice when he showed him to me and said look, this is OUR son.  Your father was wrong Chickie, wrong and probably broken by his own experiences, just like my mother.  It's not your fault, it's his.

Of course your sons love you.  It's just that now they are older and married, with jobs etc, they have limited ways of showing it.  I don't see my Dad but once a year now, because of time and distance.  It doesn't mean I love him less or that he loves me less.  We just show it differently now.  I called him about 6 months ago, just to thank him for being a great father to me.  He waited decades for that recognition and with no expectation of receiving it.

Chickie you need to trust that the love you gave/give your sons is returned.  That is probably hard for you, because you could never trust the first man in your life to love you.  It's proved that mothers and fathers set the pattern in our lives for love and trust.  The fact that your sons have gone out, found wives who they love, is proof positive that they received unconditional love and can give it back.

My stepmother once told me you don't always like your children or their behavior, but even when you dislike their behavior etc you love them.  You may not like the way your sons are responding right now, but you love them.  I am positive that the reverse is the same, even when our teens are stomping to their rooms shouting "I hate you" because we wouldn't let them go hang out with their friends at some seedy dive, we know in our hearts one day they will understand we did it for their own good and they love us despite what they say.  When they grow away from us, we trust that even though they are busy living their lives, pleasing their spouses and have little or no time, they still love us.

Quote from: Postscript on April 09, 2010, 07:48:35 PM
Chickie hon that was your Dad's problem not yours, his inadequacy and he is to blame for it.  Remember holding your sons as babies? That all encompassing feeling of love for them?  A father's love is just as strong, there is nothing my husband wouldn't do for our children.  When he held our son for the first time, I remember the wonder and emotion in his voice when he showed him to me and said look, this is OUR son.  Your father was wrong Chickie, wrong and probably broken by his own experiences, just like my mother.  It's not your fault, it's his.

Of course your sons love you.  It's just that now they are older and married, with jobs etc, they have limited ways of showing it.  I don't see my Dad but once a year now, because of time and distance.  It doesn't mean I love him less or that he loves me less.  We just show it differently now.  I called him about 6 months ago, just to thank him for being a great father to me.  He waited decades for that recognition and with no expectation of receiving it.

Chickie you need to trust that the love you gave/give your sons is returned.  That is probably hard for you, because you could never trust the first man in your life to love you.  It's proved that mothers and fathers set the pattern in our lives for love and trust.  The fact that your sons have gone out, found wives who they love, is proof positive that they received unconditional love and can give it back.

My stepmother once told me you don't always like your children or their behavior, but even when you dislike their behavior etc you love them.  You may not like the way your sons are responding right now, but you love them.  I am positive that the reverse is the same, even when our teens are stomping to their rooms shouting "I hate you" because we wouldn't let them go hang out with their friends at some seedy dive, we know in our hearts one day they will understand we did it for their own good and they love us despite what they say.  When they grow away from us, we trust that even though they are busy living their lives, pleasing their spouses and have little or no time, they still love us.

Even if I never write on here again, I think I've learned what I came here to learn thanks to you.  Postscript, thank you. 

It seems we have a lot in common despite our differences Chickie.  One thing I take as a positive from my early life, I learned to be strong and independent.

One last thing Chickie, don't depend upon other's to be the yardstick that measures your self worth.  I remember crying on my husbands shoulder after an argument, it was a moment of realization for me and he helped me see it.  We'd had a fight that reduced me to tears, I remember saying why can't you just love me the way I am? Somehow it turned into nobody just loves me for me, my own mother doesn't love me, maybe I am not worth loving, who could love someone whose own mother doesn't love them?

My husband took me by the shoulders, held me out and said, don't ever suggest I don't love you for you, just because we disagree.  If you weren't completely lovable and didn't challenge me, do you think I would be with you?  You don't need anyone to reflect how lovable you are, just know you are loved no matter what.

He sent me a poem to remember it by

Somewhere there is someone
Who dreams of your smile
Who finds in your presence
That life is worthwhile
So when you are lonely
Remember it's true
Somewhere
Someone
Is thinking of you.

So now I am giving it to you :)

Thank you , Postscript...that is a priceless poem he wrote you.  Yes, we do have a lot in common and never knew it. You
made me see that in spite of all the things that have happened, my kids still love me.  It means the world to me and I
will never forget you and what you said.  I will take them with me always.

I think you are brilliant beyond your years. Your kids are blessed to have you. 

Oh I don't think he wrote it, I suspect though, he'd like me to think he did.  I'm sure he heard it somewhere, but it was apt.

I'm glad to have given something positive to you Chickie.  Hold on to it and seriously, talk about this in counseling.  That little girl inside needs to be appeased, she needs some nourishment and you need to find ways to keep her nourished, for your own future happiness.

I do appreciate you, Postscript....so much!  I will try to do that, nourish me.

Are you English?  You might not be but I wanted you to know that I'm of English descent also....centuries ago.  My maiden
name is one of your English cities.  How about that? 

I'm not English but from a former colony.  I do speak English not American which probably accounts for my odd spelling.

I gain so much from this site.  I want to understand well, everything.  I was always taught to try and see the other persons point of view.  I also think that somewhere inside little postscript is hurt by yet another mother's rejection over my mother in law.  I think if my stepmother hadn't taken me on and in, I'd be without any sort of objectivity.

I am learning from you too.  While I am currently still the number one women in my childrens lives, I know that they are growing quickly, that one day they will each put a spouse ahead of me.  Just like I have done, like generations before me did.  I know I have to prepare now and build my self worth and belief to keep it strong.

Quote from: Postscript on April 09, 2010, 08:39:31 PM
I'm not English but from a former colony.  I do speak English not American which probably accounts for my odd spelling.

I gain so much from this site.  I want to understand well, everything.  I was always taught to try and see the other persons point of view.  I also think that somewhere inside little postscript is hurt by yet another mother's rejection over my mother in law.  I think if my stepmother hadn't taken me on and in, I'd be without any sort of objectivity.

I am learning from you too.  While I am currently still the number one women in my childrens lives, I know that they are growing quickly, that one day they will each put a spouse ahead of me.  Just like I have done, like generations before me did.  I know I have to prepare now and build my self worth and belief to keep it strong.

We're all here to learn...but I have learned the most.  I know I have. I wouldn't have known love either if It hadn't been for
my Grandmother who took me in when my Mother died.  My Mother, my treasure.

Your Mother is missing out on so much.  Your Mother in law is missing a heart.  I am sorry for that.   I always think if I only
had had a daughter, it would be okay.  You can talk to your daughter but no more to your son when he is married.  And
there, you can see, if you only have sons, you think you're not loved. 

You and your daughter can butt heads but still be okay in the end.  That's what I wish I had had.  That's what I wanted
my DILs to be in my life. 

Keep writing to us and give us more of your brilliance.  We need it.  I need it. 

Chickie I think what you are coming up against is the difference between men and women.  Women tend to be more giving and forgiving. We are softer and more emotional.  It's nature not nurture.

My mother can't miss what she's never had.  I've come to terms with our relationship, at the moment it's mutually agreeable.  She gets what she needs from me.  I'm not sure what I get apart from peace from her explosive behavior, but it works and that is what matters.  As for my Mil, she is missing out and during my more pragmatic moments, I see that as her loss.  In my lower moments when I am full of self doubt, I wonder why?

I am by no means faultless.  I am not at all innocent.  When I realized I was being attacked, I did fight back by pulling away.  That is learned behavior from my childhood, fly under the radar and you don't get hit right?  Hide and they can't find you to hurt you?

One thing I am questioning at the moment is should I continue to hide?

I confess I had an opportunity to see her last night, but I wouldn't go.  When I see her I feel 5 again, I shake, I feel ill and I put up walls.  My husband doesn't understand why, in all other aspects of my life I am confrontational and self confident.  Yet with her, I revert to feeling like a child, a small defenseless child.  Why? I don't want to feel that way, so I avoid her.  He respects it, but he doesn't understand it.

I understand it, Postscript...I do.  You hide, just like I do to keep from being hurt.  I do that very same thing.  You feel small
like you did with your own Mother.  It's perfectly understandable.

I don't know your mother in law but I think if you could view her not like your mother but like a friend, it might be
different.  I don't understand why she attacked you?  Did you view it like it was your Mother attacking you?  You said
she thought you should have had a healthy baby when your precious one died.  That was it, wasn't it?  That was a low
blow and something no one should say to anyone.

If that's the thing that tipped this over, I think that time has a great way of healing things.  Who in Heaven's name
would understand why she said it?  I have no idea.  Just wanted to be the big time boss, I guess.  Wanted to one up you?

Take some time and see her slowly....for a little bit at a time.

It's very late here.....goodnight, my former English colony friend.   

Chickie it was a bunch of things, it started out small, with wedding planning I bent over backwards to include her, it was never enough.  She was involved, my parents and my soon to be husband footed the bills, but I wanted to ensure she was not left out, so she got to come and pick the flowers, she saw my wedding dress, was included in the invitations, chose the paper and set out for the order of service, helped with the favors, so on and so forth.  But it wasn't enough, she still complained to other people she wasn't included.

In our early married life I would invite her to dinner, it was never right.  Any gifts I chose, were just put to the side.  I arranged a major milestone birthday surprise party for her and for the gift, got a family portrait for her using our wedding photographer because I knew her to be good.  The portrait was never hung and I heard it had too much background for her taste!  If only she appreciated the logistics in arranging all those people to be in the same place at the same time and getting kids to smile etc.

Then when I had children, she talked about me behind my back ( I know because concerned people told me) about how bad a mother I was, she thought my kids should have bottles, she was vocal about any tiny sniffle my kids had, gave them imagined illnesses I wouldn't treat.  I admit was was very sensitive about that because of my own mother being not so very perfect, but I was a good Mother.  Everything I did was wrong, wrong, wrong.

She continues to act as though I trapped her son.  Asked my husband if he was "ok" with my second pregnancy, the one I lost as it happens.  Of course he was ok with it, we'd been married several years and already had one child, why wouldn't he be?  We planned it!

When I lost the baby, she was downright cold about it.  Her own daughter has since had a miscarriage, only that wasn't her fault, like it was mine when I lost my baby.

The thing is, she's done the same/similar to her other daughters in law, so I shouldn't feel especially bad, I'm definitely one of the group.  So many little things over the years just mounted up.  I held my tongue and kept soldiering on, trying to find the one thing that would please her.

I guess yes because she is a mother figure and I was brought up to respect adults, I have trouble confronting her with her actions and how they make me feel.  I also guess I hold a grudge about my miscarriage.  It was many years ago but I find it hard to forgive her unsupportive attitude.

I've seen her maybe once a year for the past 10 years since I gave up trying and started hiding.  I don't like the way I feel around her, I like to feel in control of myself and I don't around her. 

Like I said, we have a lot in common.

Just to add, if she'd behaved like a friend, I might see her as such.  But she never did.  She treated me and the others very much like children, naughty children.  In a way that I had never been treated by my father.  Even as a child my father treated me with respect and allowed me to make my own choices.  He talked to me, he never hit me, he never berated me.  He just talked and listened.  Being treated like I was one of supernanny's charges put me off to a large extent too.  I wouldn't go to the naughty step.  I think I do see her largely in terms of my own mother, who did berate me.

Quote from: Postscript on April 09, 2010, 09:41:38 PM
Chickie it was a bunch of things, it started out small, with wedding planning I bent over backwards to include her, it was never enough.  She was involved, my parents and my soon to be husband footed the bills, but I wanted to ensure she was not left out, so she got to come and pick the flowers, she saw my wedding dress, was included in the invitations, chose the paper and set out for the order of service, helped with the favors, so on and so forth.  But it wasn't enough, she still complained to other people she wasn't included.

In our early married life I would invite her to dinner, it was never right.  Any gifts I chose, were just put to the side.  I arranged a major milestone birthday surprise party for her and for the gift, got a family portrait for her using our wedding photographer because I knew her to be good.  The portrait was never hung and I heard it had too much background for her taste!  If only she appreciated the logistics in arranging all those people to be in the same place at the same time and getting kids to smile etc.

Then when I had children, she talked about me behind my back ( I know because concerned people told me) about how bad a mother I was, she thought my kids should have bottles, she was vocal about any tiny sniffle my kids had, gave them imagined illnesses I wouldn't treat.  I admit was was very sensitive about that because of my own mother being not so very perfect, but I was a good Mother.  Everything I did was wrong, wrong, wrong.

She continues to act as though I trapped her son.  Asked my husband if he was "ok" with my second pregnancy, the one I lost as it happens.  Of course he was ok with it, we'd been married several years and already had one child, why wouldn't he be?  We planned it!

When I lost the baby, she was downright cold about it.  Her own daughter has since had a miscarriage, only that wasn't her fault, like it was mine when I lost my baby.

The thing is, she's done the same/similar to her other daughters in law, so I shouldn't feel especially bad, I'm definitely one of the group.  So many little things over the years just mounted up.  I held my tongue and kept soldiering on, trying to find the one thing that would please her.

I guess yes because she is a mother figure and I was brought up to respect adults, I have trouble confronting her with her actions and how they make me feel.  I also guess I hold a grudge about my miscarriage.  It was many years ago but I find it hard to forgive her unsupportive attitude.

I've seen her maybe once a year for the past 10 years since I gave up trying and started hiding.  I don't like the way I feel around her, I like to feel in control of myself and I don't around her. 

Like I said, we have a lot in common.

Just to add, if she'd behaved like a friend, I might see her as such.  But she never did.  She treated me and the others very much like children, naughty children.  In a way that I had never been treated by my father.  Even as a child my father treated me with respect and allowed me to make my own choices.  He talked to me, he never hit me, he never berated me.  He just talked and listened.  Being treated like I was one of supernanny's charges put me off to a large extent too.  I wouldn't go to the naughty step.  I think I do see her largely in terms of my own mother, who did berate me.

Well, I got back up from bed ...I couldn't sleep...Postscript!  This is awful....it is.  First of all, I had a grandmother (who
didn't raise me but raised my brother) who was just like this!!  It's horrible...you could not please her. She kept her kids
and grandchildren off kilter all the time.  I'd bring her a present and she'd run in to show me all her laid out gifts from
others.  They were all better than mine.

She was so controlling.  Oh!  It was awful....her own grown children waited like puppy dogs to get some kind of special
treatment to know they were loved.  When she did give love, it was wonderful!  You could live on it for a year.  So
special and wonderful, I'll never forget it.

She had terrible baggage from her childhood, of course.  Instead of being a shrinking violet, she became a control
freak.  I think that might be what your MIL is doing.  She probably has baggage too.  We all do.

Think about not engaging her if you see her. Don't do anything special...be strong and silent.  Don't let her see your anger
so she'll know you can't be done in by her treatment.  I know that when I did that with my grandmother, it worked
wonders.  She did cartwheels to try to engage me.  I buckled, though, when she showed me love.  It was almost
worth it. 

I think a reverse treatment of how you have been with her, when you're around her, will work.  Don't let her think she
is getting to you.  It's been awhile since you've seen her so going in you will be scared but people like this get scared too
when they realize it's not working anymore. 

I wish I could give her a piece of my mind.  I would. 

Thanks Chickie, gosh we've talked a lot!

It's nice to be heard and to hear I'm not being childish or anything.  I've been feeling a little vulnerable since last night when my husband went to visit and got offside with me for not wanting to go.

I will get this beaten, just like I sorted out my own mother's relationship with me.  Thank you for helping me get my thoughts back in line.

Go and sleep now, peacefully.

Quote from: 2chickiebaby on April 09, 2010, 05:46:40 PM
Creme,
I can see what you mean...I remember when our son's friend died, young, in his 20's.  It was so sad the way the DIL was
acting.  Son was attentive to his parents and DIL was fuming because he wasn't paying attention to her.

I found that so pitiful.  She was insecure, I can see that now but back then, I couldn't believe my eyes.  She even said while
at his parent's home, "why is he not paying attention to me!"

I know she is very insecure so seeing us interact might have been too much for her.  Small consolation to us, though.

I hope you'll keep us posted on when you get to see your DIL...how it goes and what all happens.

Hi Chickie...I believe it will go well...they are coming home soon...with her help, I've realized, that things she does and says are her just being who she is, it isn't meant to hurt me or attack me...we are all as human beings never on the same plain at the same time.  Knowing that, nothing she does will bother me or hurt me...I know now she was simply retaliating b/c she thought I hated her and visa versa.  So, I'm hopeful we will now have a normal relationship....

Someone posted, and I'm sorry I forget who, said something which was thought provoking and that was, "why can't inlaw relationships be like any other relationship?" Which they are...and should be...

Quote from: Postscript on April 09, 2010, 10:17:05 PM
Thanks Chickie, gosh we've talked a lot!

It's nice to be heard and to hear I'm not being childish or anything.  I've been feeling a little vulnerable since last night when my husband went to visit and got offside with me for not wanting to go.

I will get this beaten, just like I sorted out my own mother's relationship with me.  Thank you for helping me get my thoughts back in line.

Go and sleep now, peacefully.

Yes, I agree, this forum is a God sent...
as badly as my mother has treated me, I can't cut her off...yes, she did a lot of damage, and always will...however, I do feel sorry for her and know she did the best she could with the tools she was given...very bad parenting on the part of her parents...my cousin and I sit and wonder, as we never knew our grandparents...however, her mother is just like mine, therefore, it can't be simply one bad child, but something in the way they were raised to think and believe, b/c my mother's sister is just like her...my cousin hasn't talked to her parents for many years now.  My mother only calls me when she wants something..she has no one else, so, I go help her.  However, I don't think of her as my mother....my foster mother will always be my mom....

Gosh, I could hardly wait till this morning to see if what I said made sense at all....but just to be heard feels so good...just
like you did for me.  Finally, I had too many expectations from these girls and I see that.  But to know that my sons will
always love me just cured me and made such a difference. 

I hope so much this gets worked out with your Mil...you've done so much for her and she hasn't acted right so maybe this
time, without trying so hard, she will be better.

Maybe you put expectations on her she couldn't meet...I don't know.  I'm sure that's what I did with my DILs, now that I
think about it...

So good to talk to you......it really is... :)

Chickie, you sound so happy that it warms my heart! I'm glad you had this breakthrough.

Quote from: Carmexx on April 10, 2010, 06:14:14 AM
Chickie, you sound so happy that it warms my heart! I'm glad you had this breakthrough.

Thank you, Carmexx, it's a good feeling to know my sons still love me. I didn't know that...I thought that was only reserved
for Mothers of Daughters and I didn't have a daughter. 

Quote from: cremebrulee on April 10, 2010, 02:50:44 AM

Quote from: Postscript on April 09, 2010, 10:17:05 PM
Thanks Chickie, gosh we've talked a lot!

It's nice to be heard and to hear I'm not being childish or anything.  I've been feeling a little vulnerable since last night when my husband went to visit and got offside with me for not wanting to go.

I will get this beaten, just like I sorted out my own mother's relationship with me.  Thank you for helping me get my thoughts back in line.

Go and sleep now, peacefully.

Yes, I agree, this forum is a God sent...
as badly as my mother has treated me, I can't cut her off...yes, she did a lot of damage, and always will...however, I do feel sorry for her and know she did the best she could with the tools she was given...very bad parenting on the part of her parents...my cousin and I sit and wonder, as we never knew our grandparents...however, her mother is just like mine, therefore, it can't be simply one bad child, but something in the way they were raised to think and believe, b/c my mother's sister is just like her...my cousin hasn't talked to her parents for many years now.  My mother only calls me when she wants something..she has no one else, so, I go help her.  However, I don't think of her as my mother....my foster mother will always be my mom....

You're a good woman, Creme and in the end, you'll have no regrets.  I think that's one of the best things you can give
yourself.....no regrets.

ohhh Chickie, but I do have regrets....I'm impatient, and with my mother, it's tough...after I leave her I always become so angry with myself for opening my mouth and arguing with her...I don't know if this makes any sense to anyone, but her last husband was a good man, everyone loved him...so did we...I called him dad.  When he became ill with cancer, she was so nasty to him...he was in the hospital and on a Sunday, his doctor had the nurses station call me and ask me to meet him there.  When we got there I was so embarrassed...she was carrying on terrible and when the doctor came in, he yelled at me and said, "your mother is mentally ill....she needs to be institutionalized!"  She was making a big fuss in front of my dad, about the bag he had, and she said, it's going to stink and I'm not going to help him with it...Chickie, I'm crying now, b/c I cannot imagine how my dad felt.  He was so good to her all those years...well, I went into his room, and sat on his bed, and said, "Dad, if I had my breasts removed, would you love me any less....?  He started to cry...and I said, Daddy, I love you with all my heart and always will...we will get thru this...".  Then he started to sob...and I told him to go ahead and let it out, and I held him...he was so small from the weight he had lost...when I walked out of his room he was laughing...the nurses station was right outside his room...apparently he was so depressed he wouldn't eat...the nurses were standing outside his door listening and they started to clap...but all I could do was cry...b/c I know my mother and the fuss she would make.  You talk about selfish nasty people...my mother would win the prize...after my dad died, not long thereafter....I couldn't talk to her or go to see her for a very long time....I was very angry with her for the way she treated him....awful!!!!

So, now, I suppose, whenever I'm around her, that always sticks with me and I loose my temper with her at times...instead of just shaking my head and agreeing.  My one cousin is a minister and we just discussed this last week...he said, I have to forgive...and I'm trying to...I really am...it's so hard though.

So, while I appreciate your kindness, Chickie...I'd be a better person if I could just let her vocalize and keep my mouth shut tight and just let it roll off my back...but sometimes it's very hard.  The poor woman has no one...and I used to say to her..."mom, you should be nicer to me, cuz I'm all you got".  But she'd just get really nasty and tell me what a horrible person I am. 

I really didn't spend much time with her as a child...I was at my foster parents home, all the time...she used to hit me a lot, and I know she hit dad to, but he never said anything. 

So, it's hard to like her, let alone, love her...and I haven't even began to tell you about the things she did to me....

I just feel very very sorry for her, nothing more....I think about how lucky I was and am, and there is no amount of money that could buy whay I've had in my lifetime as far as being bought up by a good family...one that never yelled or hit each other...a loving compassionate family...who literally saved my life. 

Hugs to you girlfriend, and thank you

Gosh, Creme...it amazes me that people can be so sick and still live on the earth.  Your Mother is one of those...I guess the
reason she still lives is that she's so sick that she has no idea she's sick.  The Dr. was probably right, she does need to
be instituationalized.  It might do her more good than being able to walk around like she does.

Normal people understand they can't treat people like she does but not her, she's so sick she doesn't know that.

I'm sorry you had to go through all this, Creme.  It's made you a better person, though.  Small comfort for all you've
been through but it's allowed you to see what your DIL might be feeling.  At least that's something.

I guess what I have learned and I know it's too late is that we are all scarred by something.  I wish it wasn't true
but we are. 

Thinking of you. :)

Creme and Chickie, I'm thinking of you both so much today. We've really been through it, eh? My dad is a narcissist and my sibling and I suffered for it. I haven't cut him off, but I haven't been able to forgive him yet either. I know forgiveness will help me move forward, and I've gotten close, but can't seem to do it. He married a woman who is his equal and she's also done a number on me. What are the odds?

Quote from: penstamen on April 10, 2010, 05:12:30 PM
Creme and Chickie, I'm thinking of you both so much today. We've really been through it, eh? My dad is a narcissist and my sibling and I suffered for it. I haven't cut him off, but I haven't been able to forgive him yet either. I know forgiveness will help me move forward, and I've gotten close, but can't seem to do it. He married a woman who is his equal and she's also done a number on me. What are the odds?

I know what you mean Penstamen....I can't think of my father without getting sad.  He never loved me, ever. I know he's ]
responsible for my Mother's death.  Not overtly but by just being his brutal self.  She had no other out from him. His last
wife and he adopted a child and left all he had to that child, leaving my brother and me out in the cold.  I don't know
how I feel about him but when he died (at 51), I cried.  Maybe for what could have been.  He seemed very frightened
when he was dying.  He had been quite angry at God, denying His existence,  but was crying for God when he was dying. 

I seem to pour my heart out to all of you and feel safe.  I would never do that anywhere else. 

Quote from: 2chickiebaby on April 10, 2010, 06:39:57 AM

Quote from: Carmexx on April 10, 2010, 06:14:14 AM
Chickie, you sound so happy that it warms my heart! I'm glad you had this breakthrough.

Thank you, Carmexx, it's a good feeling to know my sons still love me. I didn't know that...I thought that was only reserved
for Mothers of Daughters and I didn't have a daughter.

Chicky...I am so happy for you. It's been a long time coming.  I knew your sons loved you I'm glad you know that too.