Hi Ladies, hope you had a good holiday. I haven't posted in a while...just been lurking or interjecting. I was doing well...or at least as well as expected. 6 months of the silent treatment from DS and DIL and not allowed any part of my GD. Well...I got a text at 9:30 p.m. on Christmas night from DS, "merry Christmas" I texted back..."merry Christmas to you. I love and miss you." That was the first communication in 6 months. He knows I have gifts for them, I put that in my Xmas card. I even texted this morning that I would like to bring the gifts by...again...NOTHING. I had hopes up that he was moving forward. I was thinking about going to their place one evening and calling from outside and let him know I am there and have gifts and will sit for 10 minutes if he'd like to see me, just open the door...if not, I will leave their gifts. Does that sound like a bad idea? My therapist said do what makes me happy...but truthfully, nothing about any of this makes me happy. I seriously doubt he will open the door and now I feel stupid about leaving expensive gifts to ungrateful people who can't have the decency to even acknowledge me. I am torn.
I was wondering if any of you had thoughts on this one. I just don't know anymore and it is starting to get me down again. Bah...HUMBUG!!!!
My guess is that what he meant was "Merry Christmas." Door open...two words, door closed." I'm so sorry, MU
So...it wasn't much positive after all...was it! I had my hopes up. Now what do I do about the gifts? I have this thing where just because they are treating me awful doesn't mean that I have to do the same. I don't know...I just don't know!
I agree with Luise, MU. I'm glad you are seeking advice on this one. My vote is to NOT give them gifts, especially expensive ones. You will appear needy and gullible. Take them back to the store and spend the money on yourself! Live the best life you can and move on. Your son will figure it out one of these days and you'll be a centered, whole, vibrant, complete WW when he does if you STOP mooning around for the least little tidbit from DS & DIL!
MU, it's so good to hear from you again. Have a fulfilling, joyous new year :) {{{hugs}}}
I think showing up at their house is likely to backfire on you in a big way. Me personally, I'd put the gifts aside, and then donate them in a month if he doesn't specifically make arrangements to get them. I don't think that's treating him badly. (And, actually, if he's not speaking to you, he may genuinely not want to receive gifts from you right now.) I'm sorry that you're hurting, MU.
Just get that he said "Merry Christmas." He really did! What a miracle! It wasn't about anything else like further communication or gifts...but it was "Merry Christmas." Don't lose sight of that, Honey.
Hi MU, Hello, Well, at least you did get a text from DS with "Merry Christmas". Remember, a lot of us did not even get that.....So keep that in your Heart.
IMHO~~put gifts away in a closet for some other day...No more calls, dont go over~~nothing..DS knows you have them and when he is ready he will contact you, he knows the door is open and that you love him...that is all that matters right now...
Have you read the book, When Parents Hurt by: Joshua Coleman, PhD. ? If not, may I recommend that book to you~it really does have a lot of great insight which may help you~~for it has to me.
Hang in there, dont concentrate on them anymore (I know easier said than done) but try...This is a new year....A new year for us Mom, to better ourselves and to take a new journey in life without our children.... We will always be there for them for that is part of being a parent.....In the meantime when they need us they will be back.
Happy New Year...Peace and Hugs...Faith
Thanks for the in put ladies. I knew all this already....I guess I just needed reinforcement. I am always such the nice mom, the giver. Everytime I cook something my DS loves...I make extra and freeze it. I have about 6 meals for him....I will wait. I am taking back the clothes for GD since they are winter and she will grow out soon, put the money away...the toys...I'll wait.
I'm o.k. Thanks.
I know how hard that must be for you. Remember, MU, to be "nice" to yourself. Be the "giver" to you. It's time. Sending love...
Luise...I don't know how. I have done everything for the past 28 years to give to everyone else. My kids especially. I still want to. That's what is awful about this whole thing. I never in a million years would have suspected that my DS would be behaving this way and hurting us all....for what ever reason he has....we don't deserve it and it is most definately the hardest road I have ever travelled on.
Thanks for all your support...I'll work on me more.
Most of us don't know how. We learn to give and that becomes our identity. "Deserving" probably has very little to do with it. Our well-being can't safely be put into the hands of others. Find a great support group and an even greater counselor and move on to developing self-respect. And play your piano, MU. Sending love...
Happy New Year 2011 to all!
Miss Understood at least he wished you Merry Christmas.
Maybe he wanted just to let you know that he is thinking about you..
but could not communicate more b/c of DIL attitude?
We talk to our son on Dec.27,
DS come alone to see us, we talk in front of his brother house,
DS stayed only 10 minutes, we gave him 2 presents for his 2 daughters,
envelope for him with $100 and
food basket with goodies for whole family with bottle of whiskey.
DS took presents, wished us Merry Christmas and left,
promising that he would call latter and let us know
when we could see our 2 granddaughters.
ON Dec. 30 DS called asking where we are,
that he need to talk to us before we could see his kids.
DS came alone, we talked in front of his brother house,
he said to us that he needs to return to us the envelope and presents,
b/c it was very offensive to his new wife b/c to her 2 kids we did not gave them any presents,
only food basket, and $ 100 was like a slap in DS face b/c
to his ex I gave in September for clothes and school supply $200
for his 2 girls and to him for Christmas only $100?
but he would like to keep the whiskey..
and that that little boy is only 8 and he was just curios,
b/c he got penis and that girls are different so he just want to see how girls look..
and if I really love him as a mother should love her son,
I would not go to school talk to school psychologist
but go to him and tell him "son we have a problem we need to fix it..
that his wife do not understand why I did that
b/c
I was always nice to her or to her mother bonding with her mom very well,
never yell at her or argue with her,
that she could not say a bad thing about me..
and now I proved to them that I do not have good manners
buying presents only for his kids but not hers,
that her mom, her brother, her sister gave presents to his kids too.
And that is a reason why we would like to return our gifts to us..
I said "Fine"
just bring all back and I would give this to charity
and that he was treated same as his brothers b/c his 3 bothers got only $100
b/c he said NO toys, NO dolls, NO clothes
I bought art supply-paints, brushes, clay, crayons, coloring pencils, pens,
markers, coloring books with alphabet and numbers, dots to dots, etc...
so I knew I could use that for other grand children
I also told DS please do come in January
for dad's 60 birthday party with all family..
well today we just spend 2 hours at Mc Donald playground
with our son and his 2 daughters,
both girl were so happy to see us, smiling, talking, asking question,
we gave them their Christmas presents personally
as our son kept our presents all this time in him car in the trunk..
son allowed us to give presents to his daughters under one condition that
his wife would divide each present in half to share with her 2 children
so his girls learn how to share..
so hopefully we would see them again in three weeks
Bless your heart, Eva...you sure are made of tougher stuff than I am. Oh, the games some people play! Sending love...
thank you Louise
it is exactly what you said...
"games some people play..."
we did not see our granddaughters for 14 month
and it would be same for this year again
unless we invite his whole family for a treat to Mc Donald once a month
at Mc Donald we had to buy everything 4X
as his girls had to bring toy and apple pie to her kids
girls can not eat anything as it was close to dinner time and at home
they would have a meatloaf for supper
DS was like a brick of ice -cold, distant, voicing only his new wife wishes to me-
I should call 1-2 times a month to his house and talk to his wife,
be nice and polite to her and be very careful with my words to her,
they do not want us at their house,
they do not want to come to our house
and if we want to see his kids, we need to come to him first,
meant come to his new wife first..
DS is very angry
b/c his ex just had a baby boy born on December 23
DS thought that his ex would had no time for his girls
as she would take care of new baby
and that he would spend more time with his girls
but his girls love this new baby brother a lot, getting attach to him
and their mom,
wanted to stay with their mom in her house
whole time during Christmas holiday ;D
MU...in answer to your question, I would not contact them about the presents...
I wish you could see how codependent you are on your son for your happiness...and if your counselor told you to make yourself happy by trying to deliver those presents, then I would definitely look for another counselor who is going to help you understand that you son is now an adult...who is married...and now has his own life...and you need to back off big time. You need a counselor who is going to tell you the same things that I'm telling you and teach you how to live your life, without your son in it. That is the first and foremost issue at hand that your counselor should be teaching you....
I have refrained from posting on your threads, b/c I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I must try if I can, help you understand, that you are taking the wrong approach...if you are going to make any progress in this relationship with your son, your going to have to stop, look and listen, to them and the messages they are sending you in they're silence...and not make excuses for your actions, but to understand, your wrong in a lot of ways your looking at this. You are looking at it through your eyes only and not they'res? Why?
You son is sending you a message, meaning, he doesn't want you to contact them....period...when he wished you a Merry Christmas, you should have been so happy that he contacted you...That was a start, however, you don't see that, you take any small contact they extend as an invitation back into they're lives and take it to the next level.
No, you should not expect to give them the gifts, by stopping outside of they're home for 10 minutes and waiting for him to open the front door....MU, that is almost as bad as stalking and a very bad idea. You need to learn to let them make the moves, and simply back off. Everytime they try and contact you, it's a test, to see if your going to run away with it and expect to be back in they're lives.
MU...they are sending you a message by cutting off contact with you, and you refuse to acknowledge that...you cannot depend on them for your happiness....and by them staying away, should be sending you a huge message, to take a look at what your doing and how your acting...you keep thinking it's ok to be in your son's life to the level that it was years ago, and it is not....to him and them, it is smothering....
I'm not saying this to hurt you, or to be mean, however, if you continue to obsess with them like this, everytime you contact them, you take another step backwards.
If you would leave it alone, they would come back...however, it's going to take a very long time on your part, to rehabilitate yourself into understanding, you cannot be in they're lives to the degree that you want to be...and if they contact you, take it as a start a new beginning, and leave it at that, do not try and take it to the next level...if you do, they will back off more....
what you are doing, is pushing them away....and you have to realize that and work on you, before your relationship with them gets any better.
When they contact you, they are only extending themselves a little bit to see what you are going to do...they expect you to run away with that contact and take liberties again, however, I believe they are hoping you start to get it and change...but you don't, and everytime to take they're contact to the next level, they will back off more, and you will have to start all over again and wait for they're next contact.
What they are saying is, "Please let us alone". If you do that, they will become curious and start with a small gesture of some contact, but if you start to contact them all over again, after they do this, with a card, or a text, or a phone message, they are taking it as smothering them, and they are only going to back off more.
You have to learn to live your life without your son in your life as it was.
MU, all of us here have lost our sons to marriage, for all of us, it is never the same again....however, it is normal, and supposed to be that way, anything else beyond that, is not normal, a mother has to learn to recondition herself, and not make her children her whole life anymore...when Our children see that, they return...however, it must stay that way...we as mothers...have to realize, what our children are saying when they cut off all contact, like it or not...it's the way it must be, otherwise, we push them away further...sad but true....
I hope in some small way your realize this, and change b/c that is the only way, your going to regain any trust....you have to learn how to live without him in your life....it's hard, but we all have to do it...it's easier for some, and harder for others...and I'm not saying it's fair or less hurtful...but it is life's and nature's way.
Having sons, is difficult, b/c when they grow up and get married, they leave the nest...and your son is crying out for you to understand this and to view him as an adult and not someone who is still a child...he's begging you to...and he's hurting just as much as you are...but he is trying to say, MOM, I'm a grown adult, please, stop smothering us....
Does that make any sense?
MU, I have an acquaintance in my life, who both husband and wife tried to talk to me about they're situation, they are in they're 60's....it's her mother....she doesn't take no for an answer and give them space and never has....she is constantly there, sleeping over night all the time????? I commend her husband as he is a saint....they've given up....they gave her the silent treatment for years, as she wouldn't listen, that they were begging her for space and privacy in they're lives....everytime they would contact her again, she would take it to the next level and barge right back into they're lives....she felt being a mother to his wife, meant, that they had to allow her to not only be in they're lives, but to run they're lives...God I couldn't live like that....they are even afraid to tell her, that they've had a glass of wine to celebrate something because she doesn't believe in drinking. She goes to church with them, and spends way to much time over at they're house, and it's drained them, drained they're relationship...however, they've given up fighting her...
Do you want to cause your son and his wife that much grief and pain just to have your own way....there comes a time in life, when we have to stop being a mother in the way that we were mothers to our small children and acknowledge that it's now they're turn and they're life...
Smothering a child to that extent is thoughtless and selfish and my friends told me, they actually split up for awhile because of her mother...and yet, her mother didn't get it...? And still continues to cause them pain and interferes in they're lives....
We have to come to a point in our lives, and realize, "Do we want to have our ways, at the expense of someone else's happiness, meaning our adult children?" I don't, that is for certain, and that is why years ago, I cut my son and his wife out of my life, b/c I couldn't take it any longer, we were not listening to each other, and I was as much to blame as they were....it takes two...however, nothing was working, and I couldn't go on trying....it drove me literally up a wall....couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, couldn't function normally....do you want to continue to do this to your son? To they're relationships....b/c if you continue, you might just be the cause for them to split up...do you want that hanging over your head for the rest of your life?
I didn't, I had to do something, because I didn't want to be responsible for that, why, if that would happen, my son would have blamed me, and our relationship would have deterorated to the point that we would no longer be mother and son.
MI, you've got to consider they're point of view....we all do, I'm not saying we're all here guilty of this, however, when there are problems like this surrounding our lives, we've got to learn to listen and respect the feelings of others....
and not simply continue to pursue our own way of life....if we don't MU, we are upsetting the natural course of the lives of others...we are over stepping boundaries and interferring way to much...to the point of hurting the lives of others...and if we refuse to view these options, and continue to blame others for what is happening instead of asking ourselves, "What part am I playing in this?" then the hurt and pain will only continue, more and more...instead of resolveing the issue and bring peace to our own privet worlds.
So what I'm saying is, your not listening to what they're silent treatment is saying...they are begging you to understand they're point of view, and you are not listening...what your doing, is forcing your self on them....and it's killing them....so the only recourse they had was to discontinue contact with you, to have some peace in they're lives....
again, this is what your counslelor should be telling you...and helping you understand this...it's so easy, and yet, we human's make life so hard, b/c we want, what we want, when we want it...at all costs, and in this instance, at the cost of your own happiness and your son's happiness...
I've refrained from telling you this because everytime I've tried, you have an answer to excuse your actions and continue on the way you are...what I'm saying to you, is I care, and if you continue on, and not try to change, this issue with your son will not get better....all I'm asking you to do is to think about things, and reconsider your part in this....so that you might be ableto work this out...and I believe you can, but it's going to take hard work, and a good counselor to get to that point...
Hugs and Good Luck
Creme
Creme, First off...let me say that I am not hurt by what you are saying and your point of view. Also, I am not typing angry or upset...I know sometimes text comes off that way.
I do however; need to clarify a few things. First off...if it was that easy, none of us would be here. I have learned a lot and maybe not all of what I have learned and where I have arrived to shows in my recent post. We don't really know what is in my DS's head and why he is doing what he is doing...we can assume only by other's experiences, etc. but that is assuming and you know what they say about assuming.
First off...I did not smother my son, we had a close family, loving relationship and my DS was a very big part in our family. He was very young when he got his girlfriend pregnant and married her...he was angry and had blow ups now and again. Once before he blew up out of anger and said some nasty cursing to me...he did apologize and felt awful about 2 weeks after and made me promise not to bring it up again because he was ashamed. I never did. The reason I am saying this is because he blew up at me because of something DIL said to him (possibly lies) he did awful hurtful things to our family...his sisters, step father and me, mostly me. Our situation may not be what you are assuming by their silence...it is a different issue. His silence isn't because I am interfering in his life smothering him...it is something different and if I had a crystal ball, I would not be here on this site. I don't know what he is thinking, feeling or anything because he is not talking. I do not bring up the situation, nor do I beg him. I have left him a message about once a month that simply states that I am thinking of them and miss them all. I have let him know our Thanksgiving plans and Yes, I did leave a message asking if it would be alright if I could stop by when it is good for them and bring gifts to GD. So...if that is wrong, I wouldn't know because he doesn't have the decency or courage to at least say anything.
My Husband had an issue like this with his oldest son who married a girl at 15 because she was pregnant and the girl was much older and when my DH voiced that he was unhappy about the situation...she decided he wasn't allowed to have a relationship with his father anymore or see the GC. Every once in a while, they would let him in...his DS was excited to see his father. One Christmas, DIL expected that we get them a car...we did not, but gave $$ and gifts...she cut us off again. This time my DH would not reach out and call...4 years passed and my DH was miserable. Now he has a good relationship with his son because he grew up and grew some courage to stand up to his wife. She is actually somewhat civil now. Point I am making is....my DH's Son told him that he was awful sad that DH did not try harder to contact him or fight for a relationship. If he had only showed up at his door, called more, let him know he was thinking about him...he would have felt more loved...she made him feel that his father didn't care because he wasn't trying to make contact once in a while. My point again is....WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS GOING THROUGH THEIR HEADS. So, as a mother....I cannot just go away like I don't exist and my DS doesn't exist. It may not be what he wants or why he is silent with me...it may not. It may be that he looks forward to the fact that I call him once in a while and that reinforces him that I still love him even though he is being an awful person. I don't know and unless he personally has told you that is why he is being silent...you don't either.
My thought is that he is ashamed and doesn't know how to make things right and if he comes back or sees me he is afraid that I will bring it up, see through him or make him look at himself. But then again....I really don't know.
So...in end...for a few months now, I have gone on with my life...I do go through days without crying about this and yes...I felt happy that I at least got the merry Christmas text. So, I reached out and asked if I could see his family...I am not crucifying myself over it. At least at the end of the day...I can say I was a good mom, I am not playing their game and I love with all my heart.
I am not contacting him for a while now. He knows I tried and I will sit back and see what happens. I have decided to keep the gifts in a box and if GD does come...I will give her them. If she doesn't and grows out of the gifts, they will go to charity. I have tried and that is all that I can do.
One more thing...I am not codependent on my DS to make me happy. I am naturally sad because this is NOT normal. I have lots of friends who have adult sons, my DH and my brother...I have relatives, friends, acquaintances' that all have adult sons and DIL's...they all have relationships and are not cut off. Most of them are smothering and demanding too...But, family is family. This situation that we are going through may be common...at the least, you know lots who are going through it from this site, but it is NOT normal behavior.
I don't have to defend myself and I am not coming back at a rebuttal with you. I appreciate your friendship and what you have to say...but not everyone's situation is the same and there is no one answer to this. My therapist, does help me cope with my loss...she doesn't tell me to do anything, she only encourages to do what makes ME happy and feel O.K. with my decisions and not try to do something because I am doing it for his reaction. I am loving towards my DS, DIL and GD because I do love them and I don't know how to be any other way.
I appreciate your input and just so you know....I put out my thought on what I was thinking of doing because I am allowed and sometimes it helps me to put it out there and see it for myself. Like talking to myself...until it becomes public and reality...I can look at it more objectively...that is what this site is for...to help us. To help us cope, figure out how to deal with it...If it were as easy as a text book theory...None of us would be here.
..."Do you want to cause your son and his wife that much grief and pain just to have your own way....there comes a time in life, when we have to stop being a mother in the way that we were mothers to our small children and acknowledge that it's now they're turn and they're life...
We have to come to a point in our lives, and realize, "Do we want to have our ways, at the expense of someone else's happiness, meaning our adult children?" I don't, that is for certain, and that is why years ago, I cut my son and his wife out of my life, b/c I couldn't take it any longer, we were not listening to each other, and I was as much to blame as they were....it takes two...however, nothing was working, and I couldn't go on trying....it drove me literally up a wall....couldn't eat, couldn't sleep, couldn't function normally....do you want to continue to do this to your son? To they're relationships....b/c if you continue, you might just be the cause for them to split up...do you want that hanging over your head for the rest of your life?
I didn't, I had to do something, because I didn't want to be responsible for that, why, if that would happen, my son would have blamed me, and our relationship would have deterorated to the point that we would no longer be mother and son.
MI, you've got to consider they're point of view....we all do, I'm not saying we're all here guilty of this, however, when there are problems like this surrounding our lives, we've got to learn to listen and respect the feelings of others....
and not simply continue to pursue our own way of life....if we don't MU, we are upsetting the natural course of the lives of others...we are over stepping boundaries and interferring way to much...to the point of hurting the lives of others...and if we refuse to view these options, and continue to blame others for what is happening instead of asking ourselves, "What part am I playing in this?" then the hurt and pain will only continue, more and more...instead of resolveing the issue and bring peace to our own privet worlds.
So what I'm saying is, your not listening to what they're silent treatment is saying...they are begging you to understand they're point of view, and you are not listening...what your doing, is forcing your self on them....and it's killing them....so the only recourse they had was to discontinue contact with you, to have some peace in they're lives....
again, this is what your counslelor should be telling you...and helping you understand this...it's so easy, and yet, we human's make life so hard, b/c we want, what we want, when we want it...at all costs, and in this instance, at the cost of your own happiness and your son's happiness..
_________________________________________________
Creme
Christmas is a time about giving, forgiving, respecting and honoring
family traditions, honoring grandparents, parents, cousins
and teaching small children what family is ..
when adult children forbid contact with grandparents,
refusing accept the gits for their children or
dictate what to give to them or to their children,
then something is wrong with that adult child.
Could be immaturity, could be fear of loosing control,
or hate in their hearts..
and only very selfish person would refuse gift to his child from any grandparents
in our case, our son was very hurt by divorce,
he get involved with a divorced woman with 2 kids, both for wrong reasons
-he was looking for a new mother to his 2 daughter,
-she was looking to move away from her parents home
to move to her own place and have a child
as he biological clock was ticking tick tack
since day one I know her she wanted a child-
THANKS GOD she is not pregnant yet
we learned yesterday that little one (youngest of 4)
was crying in September every other day b/c she had school only 3X a week
and she wanted to be in school with her older sister
(probably not to be home with her stepmother as she was not crying
in her mom house)
she even refused first day of school, to be driven to school by her stepmother
and stepbrother and stepsister,
but took the bus to school with her older sister, so his wife put both girls on the school bus and drove her kids to school by car
and when was that first snow, both girls played outside in the garden
in the snow from 10 in the morning to 4 in the afternoon,
not once coming to the house for a snack, lunch or drink,
just played outside nicely refusing all day to come into the house
when DS call then in
yesterday when our DS said time to go- last two slides,
the youngest one who was all that time on smaller slide, telling me-
"grandma I am to liitle for big slide..
but two last slide she bravely took it from the top, from the tallest slide ,
taking extra another 30 minutes to climb up
it is a crime again this small children to be denied of grandparents love,
denied of gifts to them and special time share at Christmas time
Miss Understood as a loving grandmother did her best she could
One of the warning signs of abuse is when one party cuts the ties of the other party to their family and friends. DS may back up DIL & insist that he perpetrated the cut off or whatever, but that's not uncommon in abuse/hostage cases (Stockholm syndrome?)
No Pen, that is not always the case...cutting off people is not always a sign of abuse, but the other way around...there are two sides to every coin...and due to the fact that I've been on both side, I'm able to see this...nothing is cut and dry depending on the situation, and yes, all our situations are different, all our experiences are different....I'm just trying very hard, and as kindly as I can, to get us all to take a look at that other side of the coin....what I say may not apply to everyone or anyone...however, I must offer up my feelings and opinions...
Pen, we are all here for a reason....some want answers...some only want validations that they are right, and it's ok to think and feel as they do...and others sincerely want answers, and to look at every possible aspect of the situation. Some just want to vent, and others just want a sounding board...
But we are not all going to agree on situations....and I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just offering up some advice from my point of view.
When my son and DIL and I were not getting along, I did the very same thing, I so wanted peace and to resolve my problem, however, if someone did not agree with me, I took it as a personal attack...like they were saying I was wrong...I could only see my DIL and son, in the ideas I had made up in my own mind about them....but, long story short, I was wrong to, and I made mistakes, and it wasn't until I was ready to admit that to myself, that things got better....and worked themselves out.
If someone cuts another person off, it could be a sign of abuse, however, it could also mean, that I still care about that person, however, that person is interferring so much in my life, it's upsetting me, causing me distress, and there is no other alternative then to cut them out of my life right now to give myself some peace and I've seen us all read other posts that we simply advised them to back off and cut them out of our lives for a while....to rethink the situation....once a situation reaches a point of heated arguments, no one is going to listen, then it's time to take a break.
I'm not saying these things b/c I want to hurt anyones feelings, however, if one keeps looking at one's situation only from they're point of view, it's never ever going to correct itself...
Some adult kids cut off they're parents, b/c they don't have the heart to tell they're parents what is causing the problem, or they anticipate if they would, they're parents would not listen anyway, so what's the point...?
I'm not saying this is fair, right or wrong, what I'm saying is, if we want to make things better with our kids, we've got to back off of them and rethink what isn't working and try something that is.
Many have posted how when they backed off of they're kids, the kids came back out of sheer curiosity...and that is when the ball is in our court, that is when there is a chance, but if we start our old ways all over again, they are going to back off again, and this time stay away longer.
Pen, I had myself convinced, my DIL was narcissistic, selfish, it was all her fault, she was causing the estrangement between my son and self, etc. She was not, this was his decission as an adult child....mom was getting in the way, mom was causing problems....I didn't mean to and things I did and said were out of hurt, frustration and anger, and truly beliving that my DIL wanted me out of they're lives....she didn't, but what she didn't want in her life was my problems, she didn't want to feel so nervous that she was going to do or say something wrong, the moment we were together, and I felt the same way...it got blown way way way out of porportion....and escalated into something that was so sad, so hurtful, so despairing and yet, so confounded silly and un necessary.
In every situation someone's gotta give more then the other...that is a proven fact...and while I do agree, some cut offs are abuse, there are others that are crying out that there is no other alternative. And maybe, just maybe some of our son's wives couldn't take it anymore, so they said, "if you don't cut your mother out of our lives, I'm going to leave you!" Is it fair, no, is it right, no, it's very sad that people can't sit down and talk things out and accept they're ownership if a DIL says, I don't want things to be this way or that, then why not just do what she says instead of telling her she's wrong, we were not raised like that, etc. Our son's have to live with them, so why not try and make things easier on them. Everytime we fight them, what happens is, they end of fighting terrible and it ruins they're closeness and relationship....
When I was having that problem my son would try so hard to show me and my DIL both sides of the coin, we were both to hurt, selfish and frustrated to see, that he was trying to help...what we saw and only acknowledged was, he was taking her side against me, or she saw he was taking my side against her, and he wasn't and I'm not doing that here either, however, if I give a point of view some of you take it like that....
yes, I could very well be wrong, but what do we have to loose by trying it another way instead of insisting there is no ownership here on our parts...? And I dont' mean this for everyone here for you or for MU, or EVA, however, when someone doesn't agree with what we've posted and posts they're opinons and it is from another point of view, instead of taking it that way, all of a sudden, we feel like we've got to jump back in and say, I'm not this and I'm not that, or I didn't do this or that....
I never said MU wasn't a good mother, or not trying the best she can, what I'm saying is, her son asked her not to text him, send gifts, cards, etc...and I'm taking this from very early posts....however, if you asked someone not to do that to you, and they did it anyway, what would that make you think? How would that make you feel...it would make you back off all the more...
Our adult children are just that, adults, it is no longer our business who they marry, if we agree or disagree with how they live they're lives....we raised them sent them out into the world, and they're going to make mistakes, however, if they do, and we point it out to them, they are going to back off of us...if we contradict they're wishes and do something with they're kids that we were asked not to do, they are going to keep them from seeing us...so, we've got two choices the way I see it...we can fight them and loose them or comply to they're wishes and not take it so darn personal...if we want a relationship with our kids, someone's gotta give in...
You see, it's not just about our son's any more, it's now about another human being who he vowed to honor and love and be loyal to. It is no longer about our traditions or how we raisded our sons, what it's about is, if we unfortunately make our DIL's uncomfortable, they are not going to want to be around us, and our son's will go where they're wives wish to be...and they don't give a hoot about our traditions...our traditions are not they're traditions....it's a generation gap, and them wanting to start they're own traditions....
I'm sorry if my words seem harsh, they are not meant that way....I wouldn't take the time to post, if I were trying to hurt someone, what I'm trying to do, is post my own thoughts and feelings on the subject, b/c it was asked, "What do you think?"
I'm sorry I can't always say, oh, that's too bad or they're awful people, I would be lieing if I did....and I can't do that....when I was going thru this, I felt to, that people were ganging up on me if they didn't agree with me, but much more, they were taking a big chance in telling me how they viewed it and to this day, I'm so thankful I woke up and listened to them...or tried to look at it in another way.
What defines us is not how successful we are, but how we react to bad situations....
but if we cannot view both sides of this, then we are only kidding ourselves and there is no hope for reconciliation.....
I apologize for anyone's feelings I might hurt in my honesty, like I said, I may be wrong, however, what does it hurt to try another perspective or at least to consider it...just b/c someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean your wrong....it means, there is another way of maybe looking at a situation....
If we refuse to be open minded and look at things from a different point of view, we are never going to learn to deal with people who do have different points of view...we will continually rally around someone who is going to say, "oh, your right, and it's awful that your being treated this way", and the situation will never get better....
Again, this is written in the only way I can write, with much love and concern for everyone....in hopes that situations will be resolved....
I can't tell you how many have come back here and written, I backed off and my son and DIL have contacted me....well, that's great, but it doesn't stop there, if we continue to persist that it's got to be our way and refuse to give them space, respect, they will back off again....
When our son's marry, life as we mothers knew it is never going to be the same way again...you've got another woman in his life now, who wants and needs his attention....and if we fight that, we as mothers are doomed.
with all my love
Creme
Creme...relax. You opinion does matter and is well taken.
One thing I must clarify...my DS never told me not to call, text or anything...I got screamed at and nothing said to me since. If he told me not to call, text or talk to him again...I'd have an answer to the mystery.
I believe all of us have similiar but very different situations and it is good for us to share. When I was fresh in the beginning...I was so fragile and needed validation and told that I was wronged. I don't need that now. I know and believe in myself more and still question if I am doing the right thing. I am human. I do look at his side or the other side but I can only assume what the other side is because he doesn't speak. If I knew...I wouldn't be here.
It does help me to post my thoughts of what to do or what is going on because hearing everyone's feedback even if I agree or disagree helps me to reason out in my own head and heart what I need to.
Keep your love and posts going....even if we all don't always agree with you. They are heard and appreciated and yes...many times...I totally agree with you, that is true.
Update on my situation since this a.m.
My parents just called me and saw my DS yesterday. He made communication with them. He said he was seeing a counselor and the counselor said he isn't ready to talk to me yet. They said he wants to...he is just not ready emotionally.
Again...I think he feels ashamed of his behavior and fears I will be angry or upset and he won't be able to deal with it. Little does he know that I would relish in the fact of him being upset or angry to my face vs the silent treatment. I guess...again...I wait. My mom said that she feels he misses me and is coming by to see them as a way of letting me know how he is doing and that he doesn't want to cut off ties with me. I am not sure of that...but I guess I will have to wait.
He knows I love him....(according to my mom, apparently he said that) Therefore....I am glad I let him know that every now and again. He doesn't have to guess.
PEN: Also, that Stockholm thing....I've seen it before and yes....the abuser doesn't necessarily have to be a physical abuser...but a mental abuser. When a person feels bad about themselves...they make their partner feel bad about themselves and are sly in convincing them that is another person and not themselves...Do you get that?
Have you noticed of late, for the past few months we've lost a lot of DIL's in here? I've had them write me and tell me, they love this forum and they so want to help and be a part of it, however, if they voice they're opinion they're point of views are nixed...because someone takes they're opinions personal....they are not saying your wrong for your feelings, what they are saying is, maybe your DIL's are seeing it from another perspective and right away someone comes back and gets all defensive and says, I don't do that, I've been a good mother, we raised our son to be a good person, he was kind and giving and thoughtful...and all we're seeing is that they are saying we're wrong, but they are not, they are trying to help...us see, that maybe we could try something different.
I've seen people come back in here and say, they're feelings were hurt b/c of some posts, however, they realize that those posters were trying very hard to give of they're time and help them see it from another perspective...
This situation between mil and Dil is a very hard situation....especially if we both want our ways....I'm not saying the DIL's are totally right, however, all they were trying to do is give us they're perspectives and help us to see it from another point of view...
and again, what does it hurt to at least think about it...instead of taking it as a God awful attack against us or against our characters...and I've also noted that just b/c I disagreed with MU, all of a sudden everyone rushes in to defend her, Why, do you actually think I was trying to hurt her, or be mean? I am more then anything else, trying to help her get to a place where she might be able and willing to say, "yanno, I have some ownership in this, I don't know what it is, but the way I'm doing it isn't working, so maybe I'll try something different?"
If I came in here and agreed with everything everyone said, and said, honey, that's ok, and your right, is that going to solve the problem? I'm a fixer and a problem solver, and I get right to the point, and I apologize if that hurts someones feelings, however, it isn't meant to be that way, it's meant to be honest and trying to help someone in need, view they're situation from another perspective....not hurt feelings....sure, it's going to hurt if someone doesn't agree, but sooner or later, we've got to accept that we might be wrong...and try something different, and relationships are not mended in a year, or two years, it takes a long time, a lot of reconditioning, respect, understanding and giving....allowing...it took my DIL and me, 13 years....and it wasn't until I admited to myself, that I was doing something wrong, as well, that our relationship changed. I'm not saying everyone's situation is the same as mine, what I'm saying is, it's not working this way, so why not at least try and look at it from another point of view, and try something new....and if we make headway, like MU's son texting her Merry Christmas, leave it at that, don't push the issue....let them contact you again, play hard to get....like yournot interested and you have other things in your life, besides needing to be in they'res....
I don't know if any of this makes sense....however, I sure hope I've been able to get my point across in the right way...take what you want, and leave the rest....my feelings are not meant to hurt anyone....but we've all been in here for a pretty long time, and what is wrong with trying something different....or trying to look at a DIL's perspective...I've seen wonderful young Gilrs in here take the time to offer they're perspectives, and right aways someone takes offense....don't do that....it's like you view her as your dil's and not the person she is....we could all learn something from each other....
or, we can come in here and complain, and cry and contine to do this for the rest of our lives, without any change in our relationships....
Sure, we can all go on the internet, and find books that we interrupt as abusive, as narcissistic, as whatever, but when it comes down to it, are we able to view both sides...we have to or we're lost....and nothing will ever change....I guess we all have to ask ourselves what we want from this forum...and from each other...but if we cannot view another's point of view,as care, and concern, then how are we ever going to make things better with our son's and they'r wives?
Creme...I don't know who is defending me....??? Can you tell me so I can get an ego stroke today?
Please don't get upset...I hate writing instead of talking...it never comes out right.
I just think us newbies are sad about this whole business. I know I refuse to play the game. Play like I don't care. That is not the way I am...I do care, yes it does bother me and no, I am not going to pretend that it means nothing to me. I would love to take some responsibility in what I did wrong...I just need to know what it is first and am welcome to them discussing it with me. I'd love to change for the better...need to know what it is I am supposed to change.
There it is again.....I can't do anything until THEY communicate. I cannot change a thing if I don't know what I am supposed be changing and I cannot give up on someone that I brought into this world and promised to love unconditionally MY whole life.
We all make mistakes....ALL of us. Isn't time that someone is strong and caring enough to find forgiveness and reach out to those we love? I am not a door mat, just a mom.
Creme...seriously....don't take this the wrong way....Relax....no one is putting you down. Really.
I appreciate you....Really. ;D
QuoteMiss Understood
Creme...relax. You opinion does matter and is well taken.
One thing I must clarify...my DS never told me not to call, text or anything...I got screamed at and nothing said to me since. If he told me not to call, text or talk to him again...I'd have an answer to the mystery
Hello, and thank you
first, I am relaxed, I'm simply writing my heart....I'm not upset...
second, you wrote me a long time ago, and asked me my opinion, and told me you were texting your son, calling him, etc, and he wasn't answering you....maybe he didn't come out and say, don't text me, don't call me, and I may have gotten you confused with someone else, but when you phone or text someone and they don't respond, what are they saying?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you were calling him and leaving messages, and he wasn't responding, right? Well, does he have to come out and say, Mom, don't do that any more....if he is not responding, why would you continue to do so?
Same with you asking about what you should do with the gifts...if he didn't respond and give you an answer about them, why would you continue to want to insist that you should take them over....? If he didn't respond, can't you see that as a no? What I'm trying to point out here, is how you simply cannot see what he's trying to say to you by his silence?
I've kept up with your posts, and you have so improved, however, these things take a long long time....and there is still much work to do, relationships are a constant work in progress....as mine is with my kids....it is very hard not to smother them, b/c we love them, however, I try very very very hard, not to do that....he's a grown adult, and I must realize, I'm alone and not nearly as busy, and I don't want to smother them or make my DIL feel as if I'm so needy that I'm taking him away from her....first off, I think she realizes I could never do that, and would have more patience with me if I did but, the point I'm trying to make is, that I even have to stop myself from smothering them....I don't like it, why would I think they are any different?
thanks MU
Creme, Pen was right about abuse
The Silent Treatment - A Form of Abuse
Just about the worst form of abuse is the Silent Treatment. Which is someone who is in the same room as you are, but who is acting like you don't exist. They don't speak to you, they do not answer your questions or make comments on your statements, they completely ignore you and act as if you are invisible. And it works because nothing makes us madder than someone who we KNOW hears us, sees us, and knows without a shadow of a doubt that we exist, act as if we are not even there! We feel a "rage" rising from somewhere deep inside of us when we are ignored.
I believe the silent treatment is the worst form of emotional abuse. It is, in all reality, a punishment because it makes you feel like a non--person, who is not valued or cared about, and they make you feel as if you are completely out of their thoughts. It is really all about CONTROL because the abuser really DOES KNOW that you are speaking to him or her, they do know that you exist, and that you are THERE. It is emotionally abusive instead of physically abusive and even worse because there are no scars that can be seen by an outside observer.
I have seen mother-in-laws give the "silent treatment" to daughter-in-laws, or son-in-laws, when their child is not in the room, completely ignoring them, and then when their child walks back in the room, all of a sudden they will start talking to the daughter-in-law or son-in-law, being very friendly, as if just five seconds ago they had not been giving them the silent treatment. This is so their child will think that their parent likes their spouse. And then when the spouse tries to tell their mate what REALLY happened while they were out of the room, meaning they were completely ignored by the family member, their spouse does not believe them. This is just one example of how the silent treatment can work.
Silent treatment is a form of torture to someone that they profess to love. People who abuse others by using the silent treatment have learned that it works, so they use it over and over again. It makes the victim more frustrated than any other form of abuse and it allows the abuser to avoid any confrontations, any uncomfortable questions or subjects that they don't want to talk about, and it gives them a way to get out of any accountability to their spouse.
The silent treatment is a method the abuser uses to 'kill' you for something you have done. In a sense, you have been psychologically "murdered " by them, but your physical life goes on.
Excuses that the abuser uses to justify their silent treatment of you include:
I needed to have some space
I thought you needed some space
I was feeling depressed and didn't want to drag you down with me
I thought we both need a cooling off period
I felt threatened/insulted/hurt and reacted with fear and isolation
I just needed some time alone to think
I didn't want to fight
You told me to leave you alone
Problems from my past came up and I needed to sort them out
Of course these excuses are just one more way for the abusers to blame somebody or something else for his abuse.
What is really going on though is the more they ignore you, the more you want to fix it. And that is what they get such satisfaction out of which is watching you squirm and "jump through hoops" to try to get them to pay attention to you and to communicate with you. It is a real EGO BOOST for them and they actually get a RUSH from the entire experience. It also puts them in control and gives them tons of attention, from you.
Really nice godly people do not give the silent treatment to others. They listen, they communicate, they respond back and they engage and participate in the conversation. Even if they disagree they still will treat you with respect.
The silent treatment is never about love. It is denying to another human being, the person that one is supposed to be the closest to on this earth, your affection and your interest. There is a saying that the worst thing you can do to someone is not hate them but to be "totally indifferent" to them. If you hate them at least you care enough to hate them. But when you are indifferent to them you really DO NOT CARE at all.
Abuse is Abuse. And abuse is never OK. In one way though, the silent treatment is far worse than other forms of abuse, because it indirectly says to you that you are not a person, you are an object, you are invisible because they choose to make you so because you are not worthy of their time. THAT is one of the most hurtful and abusive things to do to another human being. It is a horrible feeling, being ignored and denied affection.
Usually the silent treatment occurs when you do something that the abuser does not like or approve of in their book. Or when you dare to disagree with them or actually point out something wrong that they did. And then Wham, you get punished by them not speaking to you for days, or sleeping elsewhere, or choosing to not even be in the same physical area that you are in. They make you feel as if you are a leper. They may also disappear for hours, making you worry about where they are. And it is all calculated to drive you crazy.
How does one reason with someone who is so immature you think they are a child? Or so selfish that they would treat you like this while at the same time saying that they love you? The truth is you can't reason or gain any ground with someone who acts like this. It is a "no win " situation and you can waste your entire life trying to make it work.
Yes...he did not answer me...that is me. Though I get silence, that still doesn't mean that he is saying, "I don't want you to call anymore." It says..."______________." Like I said, I can't read his mind or have a crystal ball and until he shows some decensy and respect to speak like an adult and act like an adult...I don't know what he is saying except that something is bothering him and that is why he isn't returning my call.
I am just trying to make a point here that change is alot of things....How about change for: NOT assuming what someone is thinking and NOT assuming something or analyzing it to death. That is how I changed. I no longer try to guess at what is going on inside his head and why he does what he does. I can't make sense out of something that makes no sense to me. If he is willing to discuss it...I can see his side and hopefully mend or atleast try to mend what it is that is bothering him. I purely do not know.
Just because someone gives you the silent treatment doesn't necessarily mean, "I don't want to talk to you." It could mean many things. If he really doesn't want my call or me to reach out to him...he'd say, "don't call" change his number or tell someone else that he doesn't want me to call. He doesn't do that...which leads me to believe that he probably likes the fact that I at least reach out to him now and again and he knows I am hear...That's all I can hold on to at this point because I really don't know. Like I shared about my DH's son...he really felt bad when DH stopped leaving him messages....he needed that from him...from parent to child...sometimes our children need us and as much as it hurts us...we will never know for sure.
O.K. I want to have a happier day...I have been stuck in this gloom and doom attitude all morning.
I've done my monthly cry out.
Oh...did I not say I was opinionated too! I might be a pain in the rear...but my heart is in the right place :D
QuoteCreme...I don't know who is defending me....??? Can you tell me so I can get an ego stroke today?
LOL, wrong choice of words on my part...and I could be wrong, however, ever my first post to you, two people came in and posted in your defense...and then I feel bad, that I even posted anything...however, I could be wrong....
Please don't get upset...I hate writing instead of talking...it never comes out right.[/quote]
I told you before, I'm not upset, honest, and I feel the same way you do, I'm always afraid to offer another way of looking at things for fear someone is not going to understand, and it usually happens, I don't think anyone of us wants to hurt the feelings of others, I do believe we all want to help...
QuoteI just think us newbies are sad about this whole business.
I don't consider you a newbie, for what it's worth... ;)
QuoteI know I refuse to play the game. Play like I don't care. That is not the way I am
exactly, those are the same words I said, however, regardless of the way I was, or felt, my DIL and son saw things differently...they are not asking you to play a game or not to care, they are asking you to maybe try backing off for now, give them some space. I don't believe they would cut you out of they're lives forever...it's just something they are trying b/c they don't know what else to do.
...I do care, yes it does bother me and no, I am not going to pretend that it means nothing to me.
No one is saying you don't care or you have to act like you don't care, what I'm saying is, to give them some space....I think in the back of your mind, your remembering what your husbands son said to him, that he wishes his father would have fought for the relationship...well, that is so wrong, he was asking his father to read his mind...to be someone that wasn't him, and what he wants doesn't m ean your son want s the same things....MU, if a person dones't respond to your trying to contact them, and you continue to do so, it pushes them away further....
I would love to take some responsibility in what I did wrong...I just need to know what it is first and am welcome to them discussing it with me.
You have said that in the past, you tried to talk with them, however, it lead inot a screaming match....nothing will be accomplished if your going to get angry when they tell you they're feelings....believe me, I did the same thing, I got upset and we screamed at each other, it was awful....and nothing was accomplished, it just sent us both further into a cold dark place, but one day, I didn't screm and he didn't either, we listened to each other, and didn't take it personal...we actually felt sorry that we treated each other with so little respect, that we felt that we had to scream at each other to get a point across, plus nothing ever gets accomplished that way...and that is why people back off from each other....
I'd love to change for the better...need to know what it is I am supposed to change.
There it is again.....I can't do anything until THEY communicate. I cannot change a thing if I don't know what I am supposed be changing and I cannot give up on someone that I brought into this world and promised to love unconditionally MY whole life.
We all make mistakes....ALL of us. Isn't time that someone is strong and caring enough to find forgiveness and reach out to those we love? I am not a door mat, just a mom.
Creme...seriously....don't take this the wrong way....Relax....no one is putting you down. Really.
I appreciate you....Really. ;D
Thank you very much....
I'm sorry, I tried to highlight things you said in the end, but it just won't let me, and it's difficult to type because while I'm typing the page keeps jumpaing up and down....so I h ope you can read my responds
Thanks for your response.
I am backing off. I am...atleast as much as I can.
Screaming only came on my DS's part...not mine...but regardless...there was no discussing to someone who is continually screaming at you curse words.
I think he feels awful and ashamed and finding blame for it all. Regardless...until I hear why...I am not going to assume anymore.
Oh, My DH's son was very young...teenager when this happened. He got married at 15 to a girl much older...long story. But, He was still immature and so is my DS...even though he acts as though he is an adult with a wife and kid.
I'll be quiet now.
Creme
my son asked me too not to buy any toys or dolls or cloths for his kids
b/c he is wrong I did no follow his wishes as
Grandchildren should never be used as a weapon
_________________________
Many grandparents cut off from grand kids
Of all the holiday seasons the Christmas season is the worst one for many grandparents who are denied access to their grandchildren. You avoid looking down the toy aisles, you can't watch the Santa Claus parade, and you turn your head from something as simple as seeing all the excited kids going to see Santa at the mall.
Why? Because everything around you is a reminder of what has been taken away; the love of your grandchildren, no phone calls, no "Grandma & Grandpa" cards, no Christmas or holiday songs to sing. The hugs and kisses are replaced with past memories and heartaches for what used to be.
Separation or divorce, family disagreements, whatever the reason it sometimes drives a wedge between adult generations and separates the children from their grandparents' love and support.
Spite, pettiness, revenge and anger can be awful things,
but no child, no child, should be used as a weapon. The importance of a grandchild/grandparent relationship has historically been shown to be an essential and very positive part of a child's life.
Inter generational familial love and support is an integral part of ensuring that children know where they came from, who they are, and who they will someday be.
I believe my post was misunderstood.
The "cut off" in general isn't a sign of abuse; it may be cruel, but we all have the right to have or not have relationships with whomever we choose.
What's abusive is when one person forces their mate to cut off from the mate's family and friends as a way of isolating them and becoming the one and only person in the mate's life. It is one of the signs professionals look for when determining if abuse has occurred.
I understood you Pen.
Eva...I know how you feel. I'm sorry. :(
We are at choice. We can focus on what's working in our lives or what isn't. If we try to unilaterally fix what isn't working...we need a time limit...or a pain limit...or something that says to us, "enough, already." Then, there is that part of our lives that is working...that's waiting for us. Sending love...
Hey Luise...I'll never forget something that you said to me once...I can't remember the exact words but it was something like, "focus on you and not what makes someone else happy...do what feels good to you." I may have the wording wrong. But in essence....that is what my motto is. I can't read DS's mind, I can't always make him happy and I surely cannot fix anything all by myself when someone else is involved. But....(I know you hate when I use this word) But...I can be in control of me. Therefor....If it feels right in my heart, I can do no more. If they can't accept it, that's their choice...if silence is what I get back, that is not my making. By my warm heartedness...I can sleep better at night and look at myself in the mirror. That is all I can do about them....Now, for me....I am learning to do a lot more!
Thanks for the once said wise comment to this poor soul who grows more and more each day and starts horrible arguments by accident here and comes across as a lost puppy who does all the wrong things. :D
You don't start horrible arguments. No way! We all benefit when we look more closely at our own values. And you don't come across as a lost puppy who is doing everything wrong. You are a wonderful, sensitive, loving person with a lot to deal with and accept. My only concern is that you don't get hooked on self-pity and all of the justification that keeps that in place. When you use the word "deserve"...I am concerned. We raise kids, let go and don't deserve anything. The word reflects obligation. Adult kids have none. They get to do life however they do...and we get to participate if we do...or watch...if we don't. We have other pictures and hopes and dreams...and needs and we have to grow up, as they do. Does any of that make sense? Always sending love, MU...always!
Dear MU, I really enjoy your thoughts and opinions. Your warmth and caring come through in everything you post. {{{hugs}}}
Well said Louise!
I do agree with this...
"You are a wonderful, sensitive, loving person with a lot to deal with and accept. My only concern is that you don't get hooked on self-pity and all of the justification that keeps that in place. When you use the word "deserve"...I am concerned. We raise kids, let go and don't deserve anything. The word reflects obligation. Adult kids have none. They get to do life however they do...and we get to participate if we do...or watch. if we don't. We have other pictures and hopes and dreams...and needs and we have to grow up, as they do. Does any of that make sense?"
Miss Understood
you are shining star on my way to inner peace.
your question -What to do now????
it was I was just looking for
and I know my answer to my son demands
I love my son and my 2 grand daughters ....BUT!
I would no be dancing to my DS wife tune,
I would not be a bank account to her 2 kids and
certainly I would not call her 2x a month as my son asked me to do
b/c it will be just gave her more ammunition against me
in those 14 months of silence I learn lot,
I grow, I listen pain and wisdom of others here
so I am letting my son go..
just on DS and girls birthdays or Easter and Christmas
I would contact DS, 5x a year it is not to much,
but I would not call his wife
as it was her who excluded me from their life.
Well as I was not invited to their wedding, I have no obligations to her..
I wanted to say that I think Creme made some very thoughtful points in her post and I appreciate her thoughts and words whenever I read them. I also agree that often, when we don't get an answer to a call/email/test--the non answer is the answer.
Luise...Thank you for your encouragement...O.K. Deserve is not what it sounds like. How about "I didn't do anything that puts me in the time out corner to never come out" ;)
Courtney that was lovely. I am sorry about your daughter. I too had a very strained relationship with my mother and still do on occassions...more than not, but she is at the end of her life and we both are finally really trying to find peace with eachother.
My story is complicated and there is no rhyme or reason. I guess I have a hard time realizing that one day my DS is the family oriented, take care of mom and his sisters, laughing boy with a trust that goes deeper than anything.....to a......treat my mom, sister's, step father who raised me like they don't exist. It is a hard pill to swallow....especially when it is not warranted. When I say Deserve....I mean....I was a good entity in thier lives...so I thought. They always seemed happy when they were here...they lived with us for a while, I helped them financially, emotionally, babysitting, etc. My only comment when they had an issue or a problem was, "You two will figure it out...you will." I didn't interfere or at least I didn't think I did. How they could carry anger for something innocent that tore the entire family apart is beyond me and anyone else. Even my parents who are trying to keep the avenue open with him admitted that they are concerned with him because this is so not my DS.
I agree that I am stepping back. I am not calling about the gifts and yes...If he accepted gifts, he'd have to talk to me...he is not ready. O.k. I guess I thought for a moment he was my DS, the one I knew....But I realize that son doesn't exist anymore...he morphed and I didn't see it coming. So, sad for us mothers.
Quiet I will be ladies....till Valentines day and then...I'll send GD a little gift and card in the mail....no call. I just hate this!
Thanks for letting me get my verbal vomit out!
Quote from: Miss Understood on January 03, 2011, 03:11:57 PM
I guess I have a hard time realizing that one day my DS is the family oriented, take care of mom and his sisters, laughing boy with a trust that goes deeper than anything.....to a......treat my mom, sister's, step father who raised me like they don't exist.
Hi MU.
I have hope that your situation with your son will improve eventually when he is ready to come and talk to you. I thought your final post was quite thoughtful and well put.
I just wanted to point out one thing that jumped out at me while reading your post--the line that I underlined above. I may be reading to much into this (full disclosure: I am a former English major who was trained to catch the smallest hints of foreshadowing, symbolism and meaning in writing), but this line about "taking care of mom and sisters" raised a red flag for me. I have noticed that in some families the male child is expected to be a protector or caregiver to his female siblings and sometimes even his mother. In some men, this can cause great resentment as many are around the same age as the sisters when they are expected to take on more of a "fatherly" role (sometimes it is an emotional role--he must come to the "rescue" and "defense" of sisters and mom or give advice when they are having trouble and other times it may be a financial role--he must give part of his paycheck to mom or sisters--or both). I raise this because this was the role my own father and his brother were put in with their sisters and they both really resented it. My uncle bottled up his resentment and drank too much. My father largely cut off his sisters and mother. If this does not apply to your situation, perhaps it will provide insight for someone else on the board. Good luck.
Oh, sorry...My DS is the middle child...older sister and 2 brothers and a younger sister. He was the one that used to tell the younger sister he would always protect her and would even screen the boys that liked her and with my oldest daughter...until he got married...he called her all the time and the two would plan and plot with eachother. So...no real reason I wrote that...he just did. Matter of fact, my DH had an accident and he was right there, "what can I do mom" I had cancer and he was right there, "what can I do mom". I miss him :'( I can' t help it....I can't change that!
MU, I understood what you meant. "Take care of" doesn't always mean "complete financial, physical and emotional support."
It's hard for some to believe it when we try to explain that our sons (& often our DILs) changed in a split second when they got married! It makes no sense, so we must have done something to cause it. I know there are those horrid MILs out there, my dad's mom was awful to my mother, but quite often we MILs have not done a thing to warrant a cut off or rudeness from DS & DIL. It hurts like the dickens to suddenly have that hole in our family.
In some cases the discrepancy between the time DIL's FOO gets and the time DS's FOO gets is what is most hurtful and confusing. We see our sons eagerly joining a new family with enthusiasm and we wonder why our DILs don't feel the same way about us. I'm proud that I raised a son who can be respectful to his ILs and can fit in happily with his wife's family, and I wonder why DIL wasn't raised to accept her ILs?
Most of us MILs have been, or still are, DILs ourselves so it's not a bizarre concept for us to give a new couple their space and privacy. We honor that! We totally get that our sons are grown men who want to break away from mom & dad. I wouldn't want it any other way (we don't have a basement, LOL!) Often though, the new couple's need for privacy only seems to be an issue when it comes to the DS's side of the family.
It's just a bit confusing for some of us to know that DIL's family is, as in my case, talking/texting constantly, vacationing together, working together, invited over for dinner, etc. etc. while we are lucky to see/talk to DS occasionally if at all (DS calls us when DIL is out of town on business.) My DS & DIL see DIL's FOO daily. DH & I have still not been invited to DS & DIL's house except to help them move 3X! It's very odd and quite painful at times.
WWU has helped me hang in there when the pity party threatens, and I've become more grateful for the small bits and pieces we get and less apt to compare our lot with DIL's FOO. I can't change them, just my reaction to them.
Unfair? Yes, very much so. End of the world? No, not anymore.
As I stated in my post--if this does not apply to MU's situation, perhaps it will provide insight for someone else on the board.
Pen! Yes! YES! YYEESS!!!
My DS and DIL spent alot of time with us...almost too much, so I thought. Our family was fun and she didn't have a close nit one, so I thought. Now, they are eating there, going out, spending time...I get nothing. Like my DS forgot we exist! Yes, it hurts...it's strange.
Trying to stay positive...today was not one of those days. I hadn't had a sad day like this in so long. Bummer.
"I didn't do anything"...is the same thing...cause and effect. Your son is doing what he's doing. You don't get to vote. It's his life. Your process, disappointment, loss, hurt, anger...despair are about you and your job to fix.
That's the bad news but it's also the good news because you have a lot to say your recovery and healing. Sending love...
I must say Luise....I have been so depressed about this since yesterday. I felt a healing, like I will be o.k. for the past few weeks. Now that pain of overwhelming grief has creeped back up on me. Is this just a setback? I can't imagine carrying this pain for the rest of my life. How do you do it? How do you get up in the morning and feel o.k. about all of this?
You got thrown from your horse, MU. You were all set to do Christmas without DS and then I think that email unhinged you. I probably would have had the same experience. "Is he reaching out? Does this mean something? What should I do? Can I take their presents over?"
Actually it was too words and as it turned out, they didn't mean anything. Total strangers smile and say "Merry Christmas." You can't guess his "process" or "progress" and as hard as it is to face, it's none of your business. He is on his own and calling the shots. He has that right and you are determined to deny it.
I had a terrible time getting past my own experience with my eldest son and to the place where I could realize that there was a lot left in my life...and...that I was seriously hurting others who loved me with my self-absorption. Self-pity is deadly and damages everyone involved with the person experiencing it. I was completely focused on what wasn't there any more. That was what happened in my case. I didn't see myself as selfish, I saw myself as maligned and wronged and virtually destroyed wihtout cause.
We all experience and address it differently. I have inspirational CDs (www.krystagibson.ocm) that I use when I get stuck and can't seem to break out of a thought pattern. One is affirmations and the other is a soul star meditation. The focus that you choose...yes, you choose it...either does you in our heals you. Other people whether supportive or destructive are not in charge, you are. What they do or don't do can't make or break you...you run your own show.
From what you write...you seem to be saying (and I could be way off) that your happiness is in DS's hands and he is in charge of it. You express that you don't deserve his disdain and rejection...which translates that you have given your all and deserve better. As I have said before...you are an outsider in his process of maturing, becoming a responsible adult, parent and spouse. How you feel and what you want are of no consequence. You can't seem to get that. You don't like it...and some sons act differently (some of of them with moms who didn't do half the job you did)...so you clutter it up with logic. It's self-destructive, MU. Sending you more love than you can possibly imagine...
I am vowing to have a better day tomorrow!
Thanks all.
I have been reading through these threads, and this particular one has drawn so many comments. I think because we all want to have normal loving relationships with our children, not smothering relationships, but normal adult relationships like we have with friends. Not living in each others pockets or calling or texting every day but genuine caring and contacting each other because we love and care about them.
There are so many words of wisdom here, but like you MU, I would have felt he was reaching out. I did see my odd over Christmas and we were cordial to each other, however I do not know what the future will bring, and I have been depressed about it, I think it is the time of year, I was doing a lot better before Christmas, I guess I have taken some steps backwards too.
I plan to call my odd in about a month, just let her know I love her and am here for her. The situation with my ydd is not that great either, she never calls unless she needs me to babysit. I sometimes wonder if I did not make contact, if I would ever hear from her.
I do try to keep busy and not think about these problems, but other than you ladies on this site, everyone I know has a normal relationship with their children.
Luise, I hope I can reach the point you are at some day. I am trying.
Good to hear from you...Jill. Hang in there. And please remember that I am really, really OLD! ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: luise.volta on January 04, 2011, 02:26:50 PM
Actually it was too words and as it turned out, they didn't mean anything. Total strangers smile and say "Merry Christmas." You can't guess his "process" or "progress" and as hard as it is to face, it's none of your business. He is on his own and calling the shots. He has that right and you are determined to deny it.
MU, as I sent to you in a pm, I have to say again that I think your son was taking a step towards you. This wasn't a stranger on the street, this was your son who had cut off all contact without reason, and he was texting you a message. I don't know if I feel that you are denying the fact that your son has the right to live his life, make his decisions and live with the outcome. I do see a deep concern about your son's emotional wellbeing, usually changes come a little more slowly then what you've witnessed... to be the person you had always known one day and then never speaking to you the next when nothing traumatic had occurred is not normal.
I've said before that I view my relationship with my kids as important as breathing. If one were to walk out of my life, then there would forever be a hole in my soul. This is not saying that my ultimate happiness rest in the hands of my children, but it would be more challenging to stay balanced.
Jill you said it well,
QuoteI have been reading through these threads, and this particular one has drawn so many comments. I think because we all want to have normal loving relationships with our children, not smothering relationships, but normal adult relationships like we have with friends. Not living in each others pockets or calling or texting every day but genuine caring and contacting each other because we love and care about them.
and Jill you are absolutely right. We don't have to turn our backs, walk away, or quit caring in order to let our kids live their lives. All so many of us are looking to achieve is a normal loving relationship.
I do believe my son reached out...just a little. I was grateful for the crumb, but it did set me back...hopeful turned sour. But...I will have faith, I reached back...nothing...I'm quiet and cry here. He's young, he has issues, he has pressure and he is seeing a therapist.
My road, like all of us...hard and long.
Sad and scary. All of us have views, insite and wanna help and hug us all.
I appreciate the support!!!
I will believe that this soon shall pass...one way or the other.
If as mother's we are to just accept that it's normal for this cruel behavior...we would have eaten our young while we still had the chance!
How many guys the age of 21 would have enough insight to seek the help of a therapist? He is trying to put all the pieces together and struggling... he really does have a lot on his plate with a new wife, baby, career. Be thankful that he is reaching out and realizing his limitations.
I raised him to be a good, reliable, smart and self sufficient boy with a loving heart. He's overloaded and maybe because I was the closest to him...he feels he can! Maybe he just doesn't know how to make it right or face me...maybe he really is mad! I do not know. He must be honest with himself in order for him to make his changes...that is out of my control. I only hope that je has taken 1/1000 of the things I taught him and uses it and figures this out. I know in my heart that his Merry Christmas text was his way of letting me know I still exist to him. I should have left it at that and just said Thankyou, I love you ...and not added about the gifts. I couldn't accept gifts from someone that I beat up and left in the gutter for dead with eating a lot of crow. So...I'm an idiot and a hopeful fool :)
Tomorrow....I will think positive. Goodnight Ladies and thank you!
When we transpose two words...Merry Christmas into "reaching out"...I think we set ourselves up with expectations regarding what that "means." Had that been the case your response would not have been ignored. (Please know that this is always subjective and just my take.) If it did mean something...the ball is still in his court and he will do what he does when he does it. No action is indicated unless sought. IMHO...and it may have scared him away.
Like a skittish colt...sometimes I have to think of my DS that way. When I ache to talk to him, or can hardly stop my fingers from texting, I know I need to back off and wait because invariably my neediness will be evident & viewed negatively. If I wait until he approaches me there's usually has a better outcome. A couple of times when he contacted me I thought all was well and got too chatty...he shut down and we were back to square one.
You're not an idiot, MU, or a fool. You're a loving mom who is hurting right now and trying to learn a new way of relating to a son who has changed from the boy you knew. It's a frustrating process that can be filled with hurt, anger and sadness at times. Best wishes to you.
Since being away from the computer for the holidays, I am still playing catch-up and behind. Good to see you MU! As I was reading through all the threads, there were two things that really stood out to me.
1. He text you Merry Christmas. - I see that as very positive and in my head, a good thing. To me it said that he has not totally forgotten about you, although we feel like that most of the time, and that he wanted you to know that he had thought about you on that special day. I think that is wonderful! I see that as very positive for the future of your relationship. You have already said that you handled it badly and should have just sent back "Thank You." Yep. We want so badly to see them and talk to them, that we mess up. Ok. So? You figured it out and now you wait and you handle it better next time.
2. Hearing that he is in therapy and that he loves you and is just not ready to talk yet. I see this as extremely positive! What guts it is taking for him to go to therapy. He obviously has some issues he needs to work out and is seeking help. Is the issue with you? His wife? His work? Who knows, but to me if someone seeks therapy, then they WANT to work out their problems. Again, I see that as very positive for your future with him.
I so agree with Pen about a skittish colt. We have to treat them that way and just think of the contact as a positive. Nothing more, nothing less. You are a great person MU and you didn't start a horrible fight. You needed to vent and in doing so, I see you went from venting, to "This is what I did wrong and this is what I am gonna do now." Yay! Isn't that what this is about? We vent, we look for advice, we examine ourselves and work on it. Yay US!
Pooh, Thank you and all the rest too.
I have grown....still sad, but a much smarter woman.
I am sure that by him being too young...the apron strings were still attached and DIL got the ax instead of the small sissors to cut them. Maybe it isn't all me and maybe there is much more. I know they were having adjustment problems and he was not happy at all with many things...that is why he blew up.
I just miss him and miss his voice...I miss hugging him and his smile. I miss him more than my GD. I had him for 20 years....I had her for a few months of visits.
I'll be o.k. I am quiet now...maybe next time he texts or if he calls...I'll be quiet and not push further.
Thanks again. all!
yesterday was my husband 60.birthday, our son called wishing him well
but
son said that he would come alone for his celebration on Saturday b/c
his wife has some errands to do and also
his wife is very hurt by speech my husband made on their wedding day in October
that my husband better apology to her for this speech
b/c
all her family was just shaking their heads about this speech
and his wife was hurt b/c her name was not mentioned
well what my husband said was honest
(I was not there as I was not invited)
"I tried to talk to XX out of it but it seam to me this is what XX wanted so
I want to wish you both well."
wedding was in October and waiting 3 months to voice this
on my husband birthday was not nice..
but my husband pick up the phone and did apologized to son's wife for his speech,
inviting her personally for his celebration
this give me only stomach cramps and butterfly in my belly
boy do I wish it is Sunday and all is over..
I think these are great positive steps. Son called, Son is coming. FIL apologized and invited DIL. All positive. Now the ball is in her court to either accept it and come, showing she is trying and wanting to mend the relationship.
Hang in there Eva and think positive thoughts! I truly hope all goes well.
Quote from: Eva on January 14, 2011, 06:41:09 AM
well what my husband said was honest
(I was not there as I was not invited)
I'm just wondering if they've apologized to you yet for not inviting you to the wedding?
I'm just wondering if they've apologized to you yet for not inviting you to the wedding?
No.
It would be first time to see her after 14 months of non communication
if she come with son
I think these are great positive steps. Son called, Son is coming.
Pooh not so positive
Son coming alone, 2 granddaughters age 6 and 4 are not coming..
It sometimes comes down to one party submitting in order to keep the peace. If the bully chooses to accept the apology and start over, all's well. Even better, they will apologize for their misdeeds, too. If they take your apology as permission to continue bullying and never apologize for what they did, it might set a precedent for the dynamics of your relationship in the future. However, it might be worth it all if you can rebuild your relationship with your son. Lots to consider...
I'm sorry your son is coming alone, Eva, but at least DIL doesn't prevent him from seeing you. Take care.
Pen THANK you for feedback
that is exactly what was on my mind..
I did invite son's all family -him, 2 GDs, new wife and her 2 kids on January 2
personally for this celebration, son said he could come with girls for sure..
it was my husband 60 birthday, everybody called him since morning
wishing him well, talking, laughing and promising to come Saturday
bring this on his Birthday day (what he did wrong 3 month ago)
is not positive at all, it was mean, not nice,
as it hurt my husband and make him very sad for our son
if son is coming alone, he could voice this after his dad celebration,
or send e-mail, or phone another day
Quote from: Eva on January 14, 2011, 06:41:09 AM
yesterday was my husband 60.birthday, our son called wishing him well
but
son said that he would come alone for his celebration on Saturday b/c
his wife has some errands to do and also
his wife is very hurt by speech my husband made on their wedding day in October
that my husband better apology to her for this speech
b/c
all her family was just shaking their heads about this speech
and his wife was hurt b/c her name was not mentioned
well what my husband said was honest
(I was not there as I was not invited)
"I tried to talk to XX out of it but it seam to me this is what XX wanted so
I want to wish you both well."
wedding was in October and waiting 3 months to voice this
on my husband birthday was not nice..
but my husband pick up the phone and did apologized to son's wife for his speech,
inviting her personally for his celebration
this give me only stomach cramps and butterfly in my belly
boy do I wish it is Sunday and all is over..
My jaw literally dropped when I read this. I get the feeling that you believe this toast was fine--do you? I can't imagine my parents giving a toast like this at my wedding under any circumstances. Your husband has made a bad situation worse.
Perhaps DH was uncomfortable being there without his wife who was not invited to her own son's wedding?
I agree it wasn't the best toast ever, but the poor guy was dealing with his wife being excluded and probably wasn't thinking too clearly.
Some people don't do well in the limelight. I am the worse pubic speaker that ever existed and will often say the 'wrong' thing if I don't read from the notes. He has made his apologies and if they were heartfelt what more can he do. In the future he should turn down all request to lead the toast.
"I tried to talk him out of it, but will support this if it makes him happy" is not a public speaking issue, and I really don't think there's a whole lot the ILs could say to me that would make me want to include them in my life after saying in public, in front of all my friends and family, that they disapproved of the marriage but would make the best of it in support of their son.
He was honest, yes, but your DIL is also being honest when she says that she's angry and not inclined to interact with the two of you. What other honest things is she concerned that your husband or you will say to her children when she's not there? That may be key to understanding why only your son is coming to visit, not the grandchildren.
BTW: My ex husband used to say really awful things to our son, like "your mother's crazy and she's trying to hurt you" - which were "honest" from his perspective because he couldn't understand how a sane woman would ever leave him, and he thought that divorce would hurt our son - but it completely devastated DS and led to years of problems and upset for him. Just because something is "honest," does not make it appropriate, kind or useful to say.
Quote from: elsieshaye on January 14, 2011, 09:10:20 AM
"I tried to talk him out of it, but will support this if it makes him happy"
The quote was actually, " "I tried to talk to XX out of it but it seam to me this is what XX wanted so".
I see this as an attempt at a joke gone south. Even Lettermen has had a few that he's had to made amens for. They either forgive and move on (always remembering not to let Dad do the toasting) or be straight up that it is not in your ability to understand his true intentions. We don't really know what his intentions were, only the OP can clear up that matter. But to torment, and decide that he needs a perpetual punishment only places them into the wrong.
Is it possible the "it" he tried to talk XX out of was marriage itself? Maybe it had nothing to do with who he married but marriage at all? That joke could have gone either way in my opinion, and if said with appropriate follow ups, could wind up to be very sweet and heartfelt depending on the context of the rest of the speech. There are a lot of parents out there that think their kids are rushing marriage, but it has nothing to do with the kids themselves.
Also, if his apology was made, what else can you do? It is done, that is that, move on.
He was honest, yes, but your DIL is also being honest when she says that she's angry and not inclined to interact with the two of you. What other honest things is she concerned that your husband or you will say to her children when she's not there? That may be key to understanding why only your son is coming to visit, not the grandchildren.
--------------------------
elsieshaye
diL IS NOT HONEST dil IS GREEDY, MANIPULATIVE and unhappy person
DIL could voice this
when she divide 2 Christmas presents for our son's 2 girls
into 4 presents
so her 2 kids from previous marriage got something too
my God son's 2girls can not even eat apple pie in Mc Donald with us
b/c they have to bring it home and share with their step siblings at home
so we both 2 more apple pies for them
for a dollar you can buy and apple pie
and why we gave only 2 presents this Christmas?
b/c past Christmas we gave 4 presents and
not a thank you note, not a word at all..
you know we do not want contact with DIL 2 children
we are asking to see our son's 2chidren as DIL is not their mother
son have 50/50 custody with his ex
This is a hard one to sort out. Seems (after the fact, I know) like if you both weren't invited to the wedding that staying home would have been wiser for DH. You don't have to socialize with anyone, related or not, that you don't want to see but splitting couples up on either side will probably make things worse. Sending love...
Sorry but it is standard procedure that if there are 4 children in a household, then 4 gifts are given and 4 treats are given. To give to some and not others is being mean to children. And being mean to children will never, ever ingratiate you to their mother.
I think that DIL knows that you do not consider her (or her children) to be "family", and thus, she doesn't consider YOU to be "family".
I think if I were welcomed into a family by my FIL telling everyone that he tried to convince my DH not to marry me, I would not be willing to be very close to them either.
I'm not saying that your DIL hasn't made mistakes, because she's not here and the only person YOU can change is YOU. So are you willing to listen and see where you have made some mistakes?
How does your ex-dil feel about you and time with the kids?
I agree in part with Scoop.. you need to see everyone as a combined family, even if they are not 'your' family. But the McDonald's pie is going over the top, unless... you were sending them home.. but to eat one at the restaurant and have to carry that burden for the remainder of the day won't help with this matter either.
Eva.. I can't help but to wonder, why would your son want to come for a visit at all if he did not want to see you on his wedding day? Was there a change of heart, was he just an innocent victim at his own wedding.. I'm confused but and asking personal questions that you may not care to answer... either way it looks like this will remain sticky for some time to come.
Scoop thank you for advise
you missing a point that DIL is not girls mother
I just have a good talk with my friend,
she knows ours son for over 20 years,
she was at his first wedding,
she gave our son presents when his 2 girls were born,
she knows his ex well and she is in contact with her
she just gave son's ex present for her newborn son visiting her
and she would be at the celebration for my husband birthday
she told me forget about son, as he is rude and wrong,
could you imagine call your dad on his birthday a do what our son did?
could you imagine do that to your own father?
DIL want no contact and I would respect her wish
from now on
I would contact son's ex and start from there..
I already see girls through her last year once and she was very nice to us..
I would bring her welcome present for her newborn son and
in the future we gave present for birthday, Easter, Christmas to her..
Quote from: Scoop on January 14, 2011, 09:58:44 AM
Sorry but it is standard procedure that if there are 4 children in a household, then 4 gifts are given and 4 treats are given. To give to some and not others is being mean to children. And being mean to children will never, ever ingratiate you to their mother.
I think that DIL knows that you do not consider her (or her children) to be "family", and thus, she doesn't consider YOU to be "family".
I think if I were welcomed into a family by my FIL telling everyone that he tried to convince my DH not to marry me, I would not be willing to be very close to them either.
I'm not saying that your DIL hasn't made mistakes, because she's not here and the only person YOU can change is YOU. So are you willing to listen and see where you have made some mistakes?
I just wanted to say that Scoop's post is very smart and I second everything she has said.
But the McDonald's pie is going over the top, unless... you were sending them home.. but to eat one at the restaurant and have to carry that burden for the remainder of the day won't help with this matter either.
--------------------------------------------
son told girls they can not eat it, they have meal loaf at home waiting for them,
that they have to share...so we bought 2 more apple pies so they carry that home with them
------------------------------------------
Eva.. I can't help but to wonder, why would your son want to come for a visit at all if he did not want to see you on his wedding day? Was there a change of heart, was he just an innocent victim at his own wedding.. I'm confused but and asking personal questions that you may not care to answer... either way it looks like this will remain sticky for some time to come.
------------------------------
Laurie we went to family catholic services together
as son was abuser and report him
to talk about molestation of his daughter by her son,
and about my son spanking (beating granddaughter)
since I report him he did not beat girls as he is afraid to loose 50/50 custody
catholic services support me and my husband for visit 1X monthly
at their place or son's choice of place -
Mc Donald, library, park, play ground, ZOO f
just interaction with girls to make them f
eel special
so instead see girls after 14 month 27-28 December son came alone,
first accept 2 gifts, them refuse to accept them..
b/c for his wife and her kids it was ONLY FOOD basket of goodies-
chocolates, bubblegum, candies, fruit cans, cookies, cooffe, honey, tea
everything 4X times for 4 kids
bottle of whiskey value of the basket was over $100
then son visit us January 2 at Mc Donald
both girls were so happy, take their gifts from us personally,
(at home their step mother divide their gifts in half)
at Mc Donald son promise to bring girls for husband celebration
as I invited his new wife and 2 kids to come too...
It may be time to step back and re-read these posts without getting defensive, if you can. There's wisdom here, to my way of thinking. Let it sink in a bit. OK?
Quote from: Eva on January 14, 2011, 07:33:17 AM
I think these are great positive steps. Son called, Son is coming.
Pooh not so positive
Son coming alone, 2 granddaughters age 6 and 4 are not coming..
Baby steps. One small step at a time. It didn't fall apart overnight, so it will not mend overnight.
I'm not sure how you feel anyone is becoming defensive.. I asked a question for clarification and Eva was calmly answering. I don't see a problem here unless I'm dense.
It was pretty subjective...it felt to me like Eva was feeling cornered and was more into explaining than listening. I could be way off base. (I do that.)
Quote from: luise.volta on January 14, 2011, 11:23:55 AM
It was pretty subjective...it felt to me like Eva was feeling cornered and was more into explaining than listening. I could be way off base. (I do that.)
She was explaining Luise.. I had asked her to :)
Louise thank you
you know me by now, I am OK
I am listening and negative here give me some heart and soul searching
where did I make mistake
and what if...
what if ...
at Mc Donald son seem that he wanted close this chapter,
for beginning he did asked me to start calling his new wife 1-2x monthly,
just talk to her..
I was not sure about that, my intuitions tell me it was not right
like you see a red flag saying STOP do no go there!
as we could have access to girls only pleasing DIL and her 2 kids first
now after what they both did, son and DIL,
make him very sad..on his birthday
I see that as MANIPULATION, DIL want us to feel guilty that we did wrong to her
so negative here is probably how DIL must feel
going there is going into wrong direction, not baby steps
as I do not want to be manipulated,
all I want to see is my son is happy and
that we have access to our 2granddaughters to see them regularly
so they do not feel that we abandoned them
1X monthly for couple of hours or for one afternoon
that is all what we want from our son
that is baby step in right direction for us,
if DIL come or son bring his 2 stepkids with them is OK with us..
my feeling
inviting DIL and her kids for husband 60 celebration was first step
inviting whole family as we do accept them,
her reaction is like she slap my husband in his face..
you could say NO politely not to bring past with you..
Thank you all for all for your feedback
cake decoration is waiting for me and it would be success
all my emotions I would put into it
I know...I know...this is really hard! Sending love...in all directions!
I need a feedback from you :-\
Sorry but it is standard procedure that if there are 4 children in a household, then 4 gifts are given and 4 treats are given. To give to some and not others is being mean to children. And being mean to children will never, ever ingratiate you to their mother.
-------------------------------
what did I do wrong?
I did asked my son last Christmas (not this one -13 month ago)
what they want for their kids
as we just gave on Dec 5, St-Nicolas goodies to all 4 kids
(it is in our tradition, we gave 4 packages)
son answer was -"nothing for little ones, they have all they need,
not toys, not clothes they don't need nothing
but if you want you could buy cross countries skies and boots for 2 older ones.."
so by standard procedure
son and DIL were mean to our 2 granddaughters right?
and it was hurtful answer?
to prefer her kids over son kids?
congesting to us we do buy presents for DIL 2children from previous marriage
and gave NOTHING to our own flesh and blood was wrong from DIL....
past year we ended up buying presents for all 4 kids-
no thank you,nothing, non communication from son or DIL
b/c we did not fulfill DIL"s wish and did not bought skies and boots
as we suppose to do..
She's a sweetie, you gotta give her that! :(
I think they put you in a no win situation. Yes, I agree that if you buy for one child, you buy for all in a blended family. But they were wrong to ask you to just buy for the older two. You were right to buy something for all of them. But if they didn't appreciate it, it's still not the children's fault and if I was going to buy, I would still buy for all of them.
Also, I don't blame DIL only. It was both of them. If your Son asked you to only buy for the oldest, then he was wrong for asking too. Even if it was at the DILs request, he obviously went along with it by asking you himself. And you said you didn't receive thanks from either of them.
So I think both of them are showing disrespect. I truly hope your celebration works out great!
There is a possibility that you will forever be judged on every move you make. This little battle could go on forever and only adding anger at each turn. I personally would stop buying gifts if that is what it would take. While someone could stop your grandchild from accepting a gift, they certainly can not dictate to you to give a gift, especially if they only expected you to give to the two children that are not related and pass on your own grandkids. No matter how they feel things should be divvied up if you don't give the gift then there is nothing to fight over.
We've talked about savings accounts before and this might be a great place to start. Open an account, earmarked for their future. Specify it in your will that this will go to the children after they reach a legal age. You sure don't need to tell your son or his wife about the account. Smile each time you put money in and know that you are actually helping your grand children's futures. This has to be more positive then having your grandkids watching all the adults fight more over toys then kids do.
Laurie no we do not want that
had son asked us to buy cross country skies for all 4 kids-
we would gladly do that, take small kids shopping with us,
find good size shoes for them would be pleasure..
thank you about bank account # advise
I would do some treasure jewelry box for both girls, gold, silver, coins
plus I would write a little note what I do remember about them
since they were born, plus picture from that day
as we have lots of picture from day one in hospital
after son's wedding, me not being invited
we did changed our will,
our oldest son ( girls godfather) would be girls trustee
making sure about college fund and support,
that son's share of money are going into their hands
and nothing from our estate (if we die) would go to son,
his new wife and her 2kids, also any newborn baby to our son would be out
as we would not press for contact with that new baby..
son does not know about changed will yet
so fare his share was 1/4 from all our assets ($270 000-300 000)
Sounds like you are using your heads and doing the best you can. It's so complex and hurtful. Sending love...
OK, I'm still stuck on the fact that Eva wasn't invited to the wedding.
And yet she's supposed to be welcoming to DIL and treat everyone graciously?
And DH is the one in trouble for giving a bad toast?
The first volley was fired by DIL, as far as I can tell. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Yeah kinda seems a little off kilter doesn't it Pen.
I think you are running the whole gambit of emotions Eva and rightfully so, but it does sound like you've given this a lot of thought and consideration. I'll tell you right now that you are a better person then I, as I would not feel obligated to give any gifts to a child who had molested my grandchild. But then again it may have been viewed as simple age appropriate curiosity by the parents. Not saying that it was acceptable but meaning that a child does not necessarily need to be labeled a sex offender either.
I'm assuming and please correct me if I'm wrong, but you were not invited to the wedding because you called in the authorities concerning the molestation. After child welfare became involved and got all the kids into therapy, your son and dil tried to bring legal action against you, is that right?
Now just to keep the anger going, your DIL waits until your family has a special event and tarnishes the celebration by talking about something that offended her last Oct, that your husband was not even aware of as being a problem. Once again he apologized for his wording (do you think he meant to word the toast the way he did? Was he angry, or was it a joke gone south?) there is nothing more your dh can or should do. The only part of this that I did not understand and it's not really worth you going into, is why did he go to the wedding when you were not invited?
The only thing that I may have missed in your previous postings is why, especially in light of the molestation charges, does the biological mother not have custody of the children? Would that possibly be a safer place for the kids at this point? Your problems are complex and unfortunately it's beyond a simple fix, but I do think you're heading the right direction when you breath deeply and keep in mind, it's the grandkids that must take top priority.
Eva.. I know that others have said this already.. but you did the right thing by requesting help from child welfare services. It takes a brave person to take that step.
Yes Eva, I'm struck by your courage and clear thinking in reporting the physical and sexual abuse. What a tough situation
you were put in. The problem then becomes DS and DIL want to shift the blame to you and many complicated spin offs from
that. I'm moved by the dialogues, help and support in our community in this case for you Eva as well as MI.
About time you checked in Tara.. are you back home? How was the trip.. how are the twins?
Welcome Home! Long time, no see! How was it? Sending love...
Hi Laurie and Luise and WW friends,
thanks for your warm welcome. I got home last week and am settling in after being gone 5+ weeks.
India was quite incredible, unlike anyplace I have been before. I'd never gone on a pilgrimage so learned
alot and experienced alot. Went to historic Buddhist sites like where Buddha was enlightened, did his first
teachings, etc. Spent the last week in India in mountainous town Dharamasala where the Dalai Lama
lives. I'm starting to miss the spicy delicious Indian food and friends we made But its good to be home with my dog and
DH. DS and DIL's twins are due any day and if not before then on Feb 2.
Blessings
Quote from: Tara on January 15, 2011, 01:40:45 PM
But its good to be home with my dog and
DH.
:) Don't let your dh see the order you just stated..... Glad you're back!!
Tara, good to hear from you. I'm glad you're back safe and sound, but it must have been hard to leave India. What a wonderful experience.
Eva, again I hope you can straighten this all out. In the meantime, take care.
Why? Don't dogs always come first????
I sure did miss her at times. I was always having to resist petting the street dogs.
Sounds like it was a wonderful adventure! Tell us more when you're of a mind. :D Start a new thread, maybe.
:) 3 baby steps
1- son come with both girls, he was nice, polite and girls have great time
it iwas such a good feeling to wash their tine hands and faces and
play our special game -
Ok now close your eyes and let me see if your face is clean
drying their faces with towel I kiss them on their noses
and they did remember b/c they were gigling and smiling -
do it again grandma, do it again..
2- son just called that hey got home safely as they live 100 kilometers from us
thanking his dad for good time with us, saying girls were very happy
3-son promise to send us pictures and video from school pageant where older GD was an angel singing solo Joy to the world
Wonderful, Eva. Very nice to hear!
Oh Eva, I'm so happy for you all! :)
What great news. So glad to hear you had a wonderful time with your son and grandchildren.
thank you everyone
I am praying that next month son let us see our GDs
I am glad for you as well. My hope is that your DS will continue this practice. I hope you are protecting yourself in the event he does not bring the grandkids back for a while. I have been through that heartbreak, and finally learned to never expect anything. My wish is that all goes well for you of course. I really feel angry when grandkids are used as pawns. Taking away anyone in a childs life that only has love for them, and would never do anything to harm them is just cruel to the innocent kids. I include aunts, uncles, grandparents, and other relatives! How can you teach kids the "do unto others" ideal if you act like a nincompoop???? (spelling). I am saddened by the people in the world who are intolerant of others and cannot get along, or have a need to be mean and nasty to others. We are setting a poor example for the next generation. It sounds like you really enjoyed your visit, and so did the kids...what a blessing.
Jane thank you,
the hell our son's new wife bring into our lives,
the hell she put us through, I am sure he wont..
3 years ago when she came first into our lives, she told me
that her ex did brings only worst in her,
but our son brings only good in her
well if this is good -so it is not so good for our son and his 2 girls..
she also said her ex was physically and verbally abusive with her,
that her parents living with them had to call cops on her ex to stop the fights..
and she had restraining order on her ex
then next month she was telling me how she always wanted 4 children,
that her ex family mother, sister all love her very much
but he did not want any more children so they divorced
and living with our son her dream come truth,
but she wanted more children..
in the meantime our son changed so badly
that from happy, easy person
everybody loved he turned into an angry, unhappy person
complaining how everybody hates him and use him
quit his job and took his employer to court -son lost
this is my biggest fear what could happen to our son
and I do not want to sound paranoid -
but he was dating her for 2 month and during sex
she jumped on him and broke son's 2 ribs..
I came to his house to help him with his girls,
but she already moved in
son was telling, that she is so sorry that she want to help him..
and next thing they want call cops on me and
want have restraining order on me
telling that if mother (me) stop by when girls are in their house-
to call cops and call him right away
what a nightmare
when his brothers or DILs asked why -
son and her say that I am crazy,
I have schizophrenia ans I am danger to girls
and I need to be lock up in mental institution..
________________________
http://www.mysterycrimescene.com/heart-full-of-lies.html
Heart Full of Lies:
Liysa Northon (2003)
Ann Rule
Heart Full of Lies is a true crime story of love, betrayal, greed and violence. Liysa King Northon, a woman who murdered her third husband, Chris Northon, in order to collect his insurance money, had a lifetime of sociopathic manipulations and lies which had been expertly hidden behind her façade of perfection as well as her rage to destroy any obstacle to her ultimate happiness, even if it was the man she vowed to love forever.
In March of 1996, Chris Northon, an airline pilot, married Liysa King, a writer and artist. The last two years of the marriage Liysa began telling anyone who would listen that she was the victim of verbal and physical spousal abuse, that her husband drank and smoked pot constantly and became very violent. He had threatened to kill her if she left and took their young son. Liysa had made reports of domestic abuse with police but no charges were ever filed against Chris Northon.
In the fall of 2000, Liysa convinced Chris to go on a camping trip with her and their small son in the remote forests of Oregon. Later that night, Lisa rushed to friends, telling them she had shot Chris in self-defense after he beat and tried to drown her. She claimed she shot him while running from him; however, Chris's body was found zipped in his sleeping bag with a bullet directly between his eyes. Oregon detectives suspected they were looking at homicide but had little evidence to prove it.
Liysa later admitted to ending her husband's life by shooting him in the head but only in innocence and fear which were caused by her years as a victim of domestic violence. But according to her husband's parents and other sources, Liysa was a manipulative sociopath who spent years crafting a public bluff of abuse persuasive enough to justify the cold-blooded murder of her husband.
Liysa King Northon was tried and found guilty of manslaughter. She was sentenced to serve twelve years at the Coffee Creek Correctional Facility in Wilsonville, Oregon, with an estimated release date of October 9, 2012. She will be eligible for Parole in 2011.
In February 2004, Liysa Northon filed a complaint against Ann Rule claiming her book, Heart Full of Lies, damaged her reputation because she has always claimed that she was the victim of domestic violence at the hands of Chris Northon and that she acted to protect herself and her children. The suit also names the prosecutor Daniel Ousley, claiming Ousley falsely told Rule "there was no evidence Chris Northon used drugs or was abusive to his wife." The suit was dismissed but Liysa Northon appealed the dismissal. Rule's attorneys moved for attorney's fees. Attorney fees were awarded.
Liysa Northon has always claimed and still claims she was a victim of spousal abuse. A web site for her side of the story has been set up at Liysa Northon's Story. Very interesting.
I can't go there...
Louise nether I
but too much similarities in our problem and Invisible pain
is what opened my eyes and I am praying since that day for INVISIBLE
that God would help her and would bring her granddaughter back to INVISIBLE life
and that God would protect my son and help him and his 2 daughters to be safe
THANK you and ALL wise ladies here those who help most...
I keep journal with pictures, date, behavior of son and girls-
for 2 times now we see both girls they came with uncombed hair,
older girl had pantyhose I bought for her 2 years ago, way to small for her now,
both girls were dressed in clothes one size smaller
little one was telling me that her dollies got broken so she had non at home now
no dolly, no toys, no puzzles -let her take one big puzzle home with her (she loved puzzles)
I let her pick up dolly from my dolls porcelain collection,
let her play with it, and promise her I would take a good care for her new dolly,
told her that her dolly would wait for her just here, where she put it to sleep on spare bed under blanket
* eyes just shine as she was giving me big hug telling me she love me..
at least I make her smile and happy
son for 3 time as we see him, came in came old wear out clothes -
looks he stop taking proper care of himself
did not bring any present or card for his father for his birthday
it is OK as I help his girls to make cards as those cards are more special b/c they are from their hearts
______________________________________
126 Invisible
Grandchildren / Re: Granchild's birthday
« on: November 10, 2009, 09:10:23 AM »
When my son was alive I had open communication with him. I would call and he would swing by my house pick up my granddaughter Birthday gift. They always had a party but since his wife did not like me I was not invited.
OK, now my son is dead. I have been told by my DIL I am not allow to give my granddaughter gifts. But I have sent my granddaughter a card for her Birthday with a coupon for a "fun day." I am not allowed to celebrate holidays with my granddaughter but I took her horse back riding. Once my granddaughter asked me, "What did you give me for my Birthday?" I told her we went horseback riding. She seemed to remember and understand.
I will continue to send cards with "fun day" coupons.
All I can suggest is to do whatever you can to let your grandchild you love and care.
______________________________
Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws / Re: Saw Something Heartbreaking Today
« on: January 06, 2010, 06:54:05 AM »
I bought things for my GD just to find out later she never received them...my DIL just threw the gifts in the garbage. So my "solution" I do not spend a lot on any items that go home with her. I am not allow to participate in Christmas, Birthdays, Easter, ...etc. so I just send a card with a "fun day" coupon. When my GD visits we are always on the move Circus, horseback riding, roller skating, bike riding, bowling...etc. My rationalization, is giving my GD the gift of time. I don't think anyone else gives her the time of day. (Her mother makes her eat her meals by herself in her room.) Her mother does not play with her, take her to parks.....nothing.
I am not going to worry about the physical gift giving. Especially since I know my gifts end up in the trash.
Eva, you need to take your concerns beyond this site to where they can be individually addressed. It feels to me like your anxiety if building and we aren't helping. That happens sometimes and it is better not to continue. Sending love...
Eva, my feelings go along with Luise's. I understand (oh boy, do I) why you've been going over old posts and sad stories from others, but at some point it can become "wallowing" which can lead to spinning your wheels in bitterness. You are too wonderful a person for us to wish that outcome on. Please take care of yourself, perhaps by limiting your wallow time and trying to spend more time on positive, healing activities that will lead to progress. Best wishes, dear Eva...please take care.