Son and DIL have been married for 3 years and live an hour from us and fifteen minutes from her parents. The year before they were married, DIL had a standing invitation to our T'giving and Xmas celebrations. My son said that as this was her last year as a married woman, she would be spending both holidays with her family (DIL is VERY close to her parents, considers her mom her best friend and has two sisters, a Granny, Godmom and two Godsisters and various cousins who all come together to celebrate at her folks.)
I was understanding but a tad disappointed that DIL did not spend any holiday time with us during the time before she and my son married. There were tons of relatives here who would have loved to have met her and it was very awkward having to make excuses both holiday occasions and even more awkward when our son went to spend part of those days at DIL's family. DIL did not call or reach out to us on either holiday.
The first year of marriage, I was assured by my son that he and DIL would alternate holidays with us. I was relieved and yes, they have done that with a twist-my son will come to our house, DIL won't. First year, Thanksgiving was with us, Xmas with her family. DIL did not come to our house for Thanksgiving. Second year, Thanksgiving with DIL's family, Xmas with us. No DIL for Xmas and no DIL for Thanksgiving last year.
DIL chooses to work those holidays she is to spend with us and our son and after work, she goes right to her parents. I and my family are dumbfounded by this and very hurt. Our son of course never misses her holiday celebrations.
I have asked my son if we have done anything to offend DIL at all. He says no. I have tried talking to Dil but she is either too busy or won't return calls. And now, we have found out that DIL is four months along in her first pregnancy-the first grandchild on both sides. I don't want this to continue! What if I never see my grandchild? Help!!
JP, welcome. I'm sorry you are going through this, but I'm so glad you found us. If you haven't already done so, please take a moment to read the pink highlighted items on the home page under Open Me First. We like to make sure all newbies get the gist of the site and that it's a good fit.
I'm in a very similar situation with my DS & DIL although our DIL played the part of doting future-dil quite well. It all changed on the wedding day. DH and I, and our DDD (dear disabled daughter) have spent plenty of time feeling puzzled & hurt. The sad truth is that our side gets much less in the way of contact and DIL's FOO gets way more (they all work at the same company, which doesn't help.) I understand that DIL's FOO is super close...but I thought we were, too. Before we knew it, DIL's FOO swept in and grabbed all the holidays, all the vacations, birthdays, etc. DH & I were kind of blindsided and let it happen (trying to be accommodating and polite) and now it's the way it is forever unless someone moves to another continent. Even then I suspect we'll lose out. This Thanksgiving DIL did not come (she went abroad w/her Ps), but DS did (he couldn't travel due to school & work commitments.) I guess we won out over sitting alone in an empty house. DIL does not communicate w/us, has no interest in us at all, only puts up with us if it's absolutely unavoidable or if she wants something.
Like you, I'm concerned about what will happen if/when GC arrive. However, I have no control over any of it. I finally heard Luise, our fearless WWU leader, loud and clear! It's not fair, it's not civil, it's not right - but it's the way it is. I decided to make life for my DH, DDD and I the best it can be! We're moving on. If DS wants to have a connection, he will. So far, he's making a bit of an effort in spite of DIL. We'll see how it goes.
Please keep reading and posting :)
Pen, thank you for making me feel welcome. It's just so hard. I never thought I could end up like this.
I'm sorry JustPuzzled... And I'm sorry to have to tell you that this is how it is in many cases. You cannot but the establishment... and the "establishment" in this case is the DILs family. I have experienced this also. Although before my son and DIL were married, she couldn't have more attentive and eager to associate with us. However, as people will tell you.. that changes once the ring is on the finger. My DIL comes from a very close knit large matriarchal family, and gradually as time went on she spent less and less time at our holiday gatherings.. DS would come with the kids... she would show up hours later.. if at all. I was told during our final encounter that she resented all the seconds she had to split up on holidays between us and HER family.. Nice huh? So NOW she is not included in any holiday celebrations.. fortunately my son still comes to our house. He and the kids will be with us on Christmas Eve.. and next year he has told me that he and the kids will spend Thankgiving with us!!! Just like he used to.. as Thanksgiving was always my holiday to cook.. and the kids especially the older one has told me he misses being here for Thanksgiving.. I'm happy with how things are now although it just doesn't seem right.. BUT this is HER choice.. bless her.. she has made it. I don't imagine it has done wonders for her status in my sons eyes.. but it is what it is.
As hurtful as you find the situation, bear in mind that you do not have all the facts. You say DIL chooses to work on the holidays and then goes to spend time with her family. Maybe she doesn't actually have much choice in the matter (even if DS/DIL claim she chooses to work, that may be a cover). Maybe she has a problem with one of your relatives that you don't know about and is trying to avoid the situation. Maybe there is a health issue on her family's side that you don't know about that makes it absolutely reasonable for her to spend the holidays with her FOO and not spare time for her ILs. Maybe she just really can't stand her one or more of her ILs and feels it's better to be absent than risk a blow up. Maybe she has a phobia about a pet or something in your home that she's embarrassed to mention. Maybe her FOO is extremely controlling and demand she visit only with them and she can't stand up to them. Maybe your holiday gatherings are the opposite of what she finds comfortable for socializing. Whatever the reason that she chooses to absent herself, she's not obligated to share it. If you press the issue you may get more than you bargained for and end up not seeing DS on the holidays either.
You don't mention if she avoids you and your home at non-holiday times. If it's just a holiday avoidance, I'd say absolutely don't rock the boat. If it's throughout the year, I'd also say don't rock the boat, but that would be harder to do. I imagine this hurts you because you take her avoidance as a judgment upon you. It's not. It's her deal. I see no reason why you should be embarrassed by her absence. If any one were to comment upon it, just brush it off with a "Well, you know, she did have to work all day, so she's too tired to bounce around to multiple gatherings."
It's a big jump from your DIL avoiding your holiday celebrations and you never seeing your GC. If DS comes on his own now, there's a chance in the future he will bring the GC, too. But if you make DILs absence an awkward issue, DS may cease to come just to avoid the awkwardness. Maybe DS/DIL may opt with a baby in tow to limit holidays to one family (hers). That would be sad, but if you're able to forge a relationship with GC outside of the holidays, I wouldn't push for the holidays. There's too much to lose. (I do realize it's terribly easy for me to type these words and not so easy to live them out.)
You don't mention if you are welcome in their home. Would DS/DIL be open to hosting his family for part of the holidays? If they say no, remember that if DIL is working, she has an irreproachable excuse to not play hostess, so don't read outright rejection of you in a negative response.
I know when someone hurts us it's hard to be reasonable/rational/logical about the situation. I do sympathize with your situation because all you want is your whole family together for the holidays and DIL is part of the family now. You're trying to accomplish something nice. Unfortunately the situation is out of your hands. We do have to learn to accept our AC and their spouse's decisions and cannot demand an explanation for said decisions. Try to find a way to enjoy what you have (DS visiting). you'll find a lot of sympathy and support here. Good luck.
Just Puzzled - You described our situation as well. The only difference is that after a decade of marriage, our DIL left her husband and abandoned her children. Funny - as of now, she is on the "outs" with her family. Hmmm - perhaps a bit self-centered? And her teenaged children - gradually they are starting to see the injustice in it all (and she is becoming the "villain").
My sister-in-law also did not accept her husband's families (she had two - divorced twice) and refused to have anything to do with either of them. There were many reasons - hmmm - come to think of it, the same reasons she wanted nothing to do with me (after all, I'm not family either). Also, come to think of it, she has alienated her children and grandchildren and nieces and nephews.
The point of this posting is that both our exDIL and SIL are now lonely and bitter women without many (if any) friends. Perhaps the old saying "what goes around comes around" - sad, isn't it? I'm so sorry .... but, really the situation is now in your son's hands. Just make every moment count and pretend to ignore the unfairness of it all - I'll bet it is much harder for him than you know. Again, I'm so sorry ....
Or maybe she's just a jerk ;D
Herbal...I just looked through your postings to try to understand where you are coming from. I still, even after reading your posts, don't understand what brought you here. Maybe I did not read far enough. I started at your earliest posting and read about 6 pages. If there is a post where you asked for help I would love to read it. Could you direct me to it?
ME TOO! >:(
I'm going thru this with our youngest sons wife.
(( I have asked my son if we have done anything to offend DIL at all. He says no. I have tried talking to Dil but she is either too busy or won't return calls. And now, we have found out that DIL is four months along in her first pregnancy-the first grandchild on both sides. I don't want this to continue! What if I never see my grandchild? Help!!))
I do find a comfort in knowing I'm not the only one. But it also makes me sad that I'm not the only one. If ya know what I mean? I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
Quote from: DixieDarling on December 05, 2013, 09:27:45 AM
ME TOO! >:(
I'm going thru this with our youngest sons wife.
(( I have asked my son if we have done anything to offend DIL at all. He says no. I have tried talking to Dil but she is either too busy or won't return calls. And now, we have found out that DIL is four months along in her first pregnancy-the first grandchild on both sides. I don't want this to continue! What if I never see my grandchild? Help!!))
I do find a comfort in knowing I'm not the only one. But it also makes me sad that I'm not the only one. If ya know what I mean? I wouldn't wish this on anyone.
It's very hurtful for sure DD. When my DIL and I said our final goodbyes to one another, there was a point When I didn't see my grandkids for over a year. The youngest was just a newborn when that happened. I wasn't invited to the Christening, and his 1st birthday party even though my Exhusband's wife was there with bells on. In fact one of DILs sister made sure to Tag my son in pictures on FB to be sure I was aware of it.. However, my son finally put his foot down and said he was bringing the kids to see me whether she liked it or not.. and he has kept his word. I don't get to see them as much as other grandmas... maybe 3 or 4 times a year.. and it certainly isn't how I invisioned my grandmothership to be.... but I'll take it. The little guy is 3 1/2 now and he seems to have really warmed to me and he was crawling all over me last week when they visited. I'm fine with how things are now. No more walking on eggs or wondering what the heck was in my DIL's craw when she was over. You will adjust to things, however they turn out. It takes time and lots of kind ladies to listen.. but that's what this place is for.
DixieDarling you cannot fix the problem. Our greatest release comes when we finally give up trying to fix things and start embracing the things we enjoy. Turn your thoughts away from the things you cannot change and look at the things you have that are wonderful. Plan a Christmas that you will love (I went canoeing one Thanksgiving day) and start reminding yourself of how much you have and not how much you have not.
Sometimes, when we live our lives instead of trying to live our children's, our children gravitate back to us. Sometimes they do not. Regardless of the outcome we have improved our lot. I almost lost my DH once because I got too clingy because I felt insecure. I think this situation has a lot in common with that one. We got over that so I am hoping we will get over this. My fingers are crossed for you!!
Welcome, JP. Very sad that you have found a true fellowship here of women who have lived the very same issues. My son did not tell me when my GD was born and I went w/o meeting her for over a year. That visit was very short but pleasant. i no longer ask for any time or any questions for that matter. If and when he calls, i am glad to hear from him but basically do not know the man on the phone. He has slipped away to his adulthood and new family.
Instead of waiting to be included and hurt for the mere crumbs given, I simply have NO EXPECTATIONS on the relationship with him and my 4 GCs. I could blame the wife but I am not her mom.
So I basically gave up and gave into a more inward focus on my own life with DH and our nuclear family of pets and dear friends. This is my 2nd holiday season w/o them and I am doing just fine! I have not heard from him in 6 wks and no call on Thanksgiving and my life went on anyway!
DH and my son's GPs went to an old and dear friends home and had a splendid, stress free and fun time with ppl who know how to treat each other. Much better than my control freak sisters who seem to pick at our mom, who often times deserves it;)
I am now at more peace than ever. Still missing what may never be and hopeful that one day we will be close again but will be just fine if the future does not bring that to me. And he has done just fine w/o me and so have the GCs.
I am needed elsewhere and that is OK.
Each of us will mend on our own timetable if we let ourselves let go. Those who are most healthy learn to accept the situation for what it is and leave the understanding to a higher power because we jilted moms will never get it....
Hugs and comfort sent your way, dear sister in pain...
Quote from: Stilllearning on December 05, 2013, 10:13:00 AM
DixieDarling you cannot fix the problem. Our greatest release comes when we finally give up trying to fix things and start embracing the things we enjoy. Turn your thoughts away from the things you cannot change and look at the things you have that are wonderful. Plan a Christmas that you will love (I went canoeing one Thanksgiving day) and start reminding yourself of how much you have and not how much you have not.
Sometimes, when we live our lives instead of trying to live our children's, our children gravitate back to us. Sometimes they do not. Regardless of the outcome we have improved our lot. I almost lost my DH once because I got too clingy because I felt insecure. I think this situation has a lot in common with that one. We got over that so I am hoping we will get over this. My fingers are crossed for you!!
Good advise. When I couldn't see my son or GKs for the holidays.. I made other plans. On Thanksgiving we went to the buffet at a country club which was FABULOUS!! No cooking and no cleanup was the best part. Then we went to a movie.
On Christmas Eve, we went downtown to a play.. the first year to see "A Christmas Carol" and the next we saw Donnie and Marie live! Then we took in the German shopping village and bought a Cuckoo Clock.. It was warm out and windless and snowflakes the size of half dollars were falling.. See.. I have good memories of those holidays too. You simply cannot let someone's selfishness and inconsideration ruin things for you.
Thank you SL and LC. It still bothers me that our sons act like they didn't know who we were until their wives told them. Even tho they've known us since the day they were born.
And that Mothers of girls get to be Mothers and Grandmothers full of all the love and happiness. Mothers of sons just don't matter.
I am happy that 3 of my sons and their lovely wives and us have a great family life with all the trimmings.
Nothing has happened yet with the youngest and the new DIL except she doesn't want anything to do with us. They are expecting early next year and if the 2 times we've seen her in the last 3 years is any clue I dread it.
My son says stuff like,"Mom I promise you'll see my child don't worry" . I don't believe it. And I will never put him in the middle so it will be what it will be.
I will not let her ever know she's hurting me. That's a promise.
Ladies, thank you for your kindness. I have read over your responses several times and really thought about this whole situation and I realize I may have missed some very important clues. First of all, DIL's mom declined all my invitations to meet pre wedding. I thought this odd as we are about to be one family, but my son said DIL's mom is not a social person and he asked me not to press the issue. I did not and shook off any misgivings. After all, some people really are not social.
Secondly, DIL never returned calls or emails pre wedding. She turned down lunch offers, etc. except any that included my son. She would never meet with me or talk to me without him around.
Lastly and I think this was the biggest clue, was how DIL's paternal grandmother and paternal relations were treated at the rehearsal dinner and the wedding itself. DIL's mother never ONCE talked to or was around DIL's paternal mother at either of these events. She also never talked to DIL's paternal family. DIL's mom stayed close to HER mom and her side of the family and her kids.
DIL did interact with her paternal relations and grandmother, but nowhere near as warmly or familiar as she did with her paternal side. DIL's sisters were the exact same way. DIL's paternal family did not seem to be in the loop as the maternal side was.
At the time, I thought I was noticing vibes and maybe making something out of nothing. But it seems that there may be a pattern in DIL's family of the paternal side being given the boot, while the maternal side is considered "family."
I will ask my son about this.
Oh my goodness JP.....I wonder how your DIL will react if she has a boy? Having children really changes people. It makes them grow up. Especially when they realize that they are the parents now and they don't have magical powers (like they thought their parents did). I am hoping it is a boy!!!
Don't feel badly about missing those clues.. I missed some real whoppers myself. I was not included one second in all the prewedding planning. I was basically given the amount of guests I was allowed to invite and told when to show up. Beyond that ZIP....
When at events like showers, christenings, birthday parties etc.. DIL's mom and her aunts and sisters ran the show. I was never asked to bring anything and my offers of helping in the kitchen or with clean up were declined. I guess I was just one of the guests.. not family or anything like that. I mean, I didn't particularly WANT to cook or clean up, but I wanted to feel part of it.. not like a stranger.
DILs paternal grandmother was never even invited to anything. I didn't even know she HAD a paternal grandmother until I was told she died and her father was taking care of the arrangements. It wasn't even a big deal.. She died.. oh well.. was the attitude of DIL. HUGE clue there as to the importance of the husband's family. That should have given me a hint that I wasn't particularly welcome either except as a gesture to my son who apparently wanted me there in spite of the flack.
In the last 2 or 3 years before the split.. My son became really nervous and quiet around me. Like he was expecting me to do something or say something horrible.. He looked and acted almost afraid of me. I was getting that vibe but couldn't quite put my finger on what was going on. He was never like that toward me before.. we were always close and he knew I always had his back. After the split.. I found out that this was from 10 years of constant badgering and diatribes directed toward him about me... my motives... my personality... my character... my statements... and my parenting of him. I guess when you are hearing this propaganda for years you start to believe some of it.
Fortunately, my son didn't allow a total break from me, and our relationship and interactions are much better now.. more relaxed. Perhaps my son finally laid down the law and told her to shut up about me. I tend to think that her treatment of me opened his eyes to her and what she was trying to do. WHich of course was to alienate him from me completely... as her mom did to her mil. Guess it runs in the family.
Oh boy, me too. LC, like you I knew something wasn't right but I chalked it up to cultural differences, language barrier, shyness, etc. After we got the word that DIL/her FOO actually hated us (for no particular reason or anything we'd done, they just didn't like us) I spent a lot of time feeling bad because I'd been so naïve and trusting, but now I feel good about erring on the side of acceptance. I did the right thing and have nothing to be ashamed of.
Like your DS, my DS has changed since the wedding. When he talks to me I hear DIL's opinions and spin out from his mouth. DS has told me that his MIL has been estranged from her ILs since day one of her marriage, so I guess it's a family tradition to jettison the man's FOO.
Quote from: Stilllearning on December 05, 2013, 11:51:51 PM
Oh my goodness JP.....I wonder how your DIL will react if she has a boy? Having children really changes people. It makes them grow up. Especially when they realize that they are the parents now and they don't have magical powers (like they thought their parents did). I am hoping it is a boy!!!
In the heat of my final battle with my DIL, I brought that up in fact. That she has two boys and someday just may find out how it is to be treated as she was treating me. OF COURSE, it was never going to happen to her. SHE, after all, would know exactly how to be a perfect MIL, and her future DILs were going to love her.. Good luck with that... I told her to talk to me in 20 years and let me know how that was working out for her.. karma can bite really hard..
When my boys were born I told my sister that I was worried because my brothers did not keep up with the family and I thought that male children are just not as inclined to do that as females. My sister thought I was crazy. Years later when my eldest got married and then did not bother to contact me for any occasion whatsoever she said that it happened because I feared it so much. Of course she only has girls. Now she really thinks that this is caused by me. Oh well.
I think that genetically men are more likely to turn their backs on their FOO than women. I don't know, maybe they carry those thoughts in their other brain :-\ and we all know that other brain is very persuasive! The older they get the less most of them listen to that brain. That gives us mothers hope.
Anyway, Lilly, I think your DIL will most likely have a rude awakening, especially if her oldest is a male, and maybe your son will finally understand what he did.
Interesting SL. I have pondered over the reasons men seem to be more likely to throw their FOO under the proverbial bus than women. I do not think it genetic or inborn or due to the other brain doing the thinking. I think it's society and religious based in a way. If it were genetic, we must think about China and most eastern countries. The male is the one who remains with his family while his wife leaves hers and joins his. This is why most Chinese couples prefer to have boys.
I believe that Western women have been made to feel they must compete with other females. In addition, there is all that "leave and cleave" stuff in the Bible. Which many have taken to extremes.. Of course a man should make his wife and children his priority. I don't think any of us moms of boys expect otherwise from our sons. However, many women take it to mean that their husband must TOTALLY leave his family and not see them... AND if that wasn't enough.. he should join her in hating them, because then that proves he truely loves her and is hers 100% I don't know why many men agree to this, but they do. Now this is not saying there aren't some truely horrible mothers of sons.. but ALL of us? or MOST of us? Come on.... there is more going on here and I don't believe for one second its all the fault of the MILs. I have searched the internet looking of one single forum devoted to men hating their fathers in law to no avail. It's definately a "woman" thing.. and it's sad. I suppose we can take heart in the fact that those DILs giving birth to boys will someday very likely experience this very same thing.. I wonder if they will remember what they did to their MILs.. and figure karma has once again evened the score. lol!
Just like the rest of you I can't figure out the why. What's in it for a woman to want her husband to disown his family to prove he loves her most? What is this, 1st grade? I'd never hurt someone I loved like that.
And there's many things in the bible about family and how to treat your parents. Leave and Cleave is given as an example of putting your spouse first. Not throwing your FOO in the trash.
About 2 years after my oldest son married I started hearing things like, "Mom she said you did or said" I finally turned to my son and said (very firmly!!) STOP IT! You've been with me all your life. You DONT need your wife or anyone else for that matter to tell you who I am or what I meant by saying something. So STOP IT!
When your wife comes out with stuff you know darn well I'd never say or do then it's up to to stand up and say so. She would or should for her family too. If you let that stuff go on then it builds into a place of having to choose between her and us. I'd never want that for you.
I'm not sure to this day what he and his wife talked about but that stuff stopped.
My boys know I love them and we raised them to always put their family first. We don't expect or want that spot after they marry. But we will always be their parents. The two people in this world who will always be in their corner no matter what. They aren't stupid enough to throw that way.
Our youngest and newest DIL wants to do away with us I believe and has very little contact with us. That is hard on me because I want most of all for my son to be happy. And her behavior makes him sad.
But like it was pointed out to me here just the other day, I'm a very lucky/blessed Mother. Our son visits us once a week and sometimes more. If his wife doesn't want to come he said that's her choice. But he'd never consider not seeing us. Yes I am Blessed! I have 3 other sons and 2 other fantastic DILs who I adore.
When I stumbled upon this site I was so sad. My newest DILs behavior was eating me up. She was in my every thought and it was making me miserable. In just the short time I've been here my entire state of mind has changed and I've found my smile again. I don't know how to show how grateful I am for Luise,Pen,Pooh,&SL to name a few. But make no mistake ladies, you are helping real people like me everyday. Thank You!!!!
QuoteI'd never hurt someone I loved like that.
Maybe that's the answer - the "love" for the husband is just not that deep. Your statement certainly fits our ex-DIL and my SIL (divorced twice) - and both are very self-centered.
QuoteI don't know how to show how grateful I am for Luise,Pen,Pooh,&SL to name a few. But make no mistake ladies, you are helping real people like me everyday. Thank You!!!!
I second that and Amen!
I'm curious if any of you have ever talked to your DILs, or even DSs and DILs together, to ask what type of relationship they want to have with you?
JustPuzzled, there may be some family history on your DIL's paternal side that you know nothing about that's impacting how your DIL is behaving today. It's worth asking her and expressing your concerns to your DS.
It's always tough to balance both sides of the family in a relationship. The natural tendency seems to be to spend more time with the female's side, right or wrong. Spend more time with one side or the other, and one side always feels like they're missing out. An effort does need to be made to keep things balanced.
Welcome, MG - Please go to our HomePage and under Open Me First read the posts there for new members. We ask that you pay special attention to the Forum Agreement to be sure WWU is a fit. We are a monitored Website. Thanks!
Quote from: MountainGirl on December 08, 2013, 09:17:33 AM
I'm curious if any of you have ever talked to your DILs, or even DSs and DILs together, to ask what type of relationship they want to have with you?
JustPuzzled, there may be some family history on your DIL's paternal side that you know nothing about that's impacting how your DIL is behaving today. It's worth asking her and expressing your concerns to your DS.
It's always tough to balance both sides of the family in a relationship. The natural tendency seems to be to spend more time with the female's side, right or wrong. Spend more time with one side or the other, and one side always feels like they're missing out. An effort does need to be made to keep things balanced.
I will answer this based on my situation. We never had a conversation to ask exactly what type of relationship they wanted, but we had multiple conversations asking if we had done something wrong that we needed to do better or had we done something inadvertently to offend them. The answer from DS was, "No, you haven't done anything." No answer from DIL and she just huffed.
In my case, looking at DIL's family dynamics explains a lot. She has a very, very demanding Mother and spends a lot of energy and time to please her. It was like that while they were dating and she used to complain about it to me and so did DS. Her Mother wants and expects everyone to do whatever she wants, and she's following in her footsteps. I don't say that to be mean, that is just how her family dynamic works.
Personally, I didn't want or expect a balanced relationship. I expected them to spend more time with her FOO as I had seen had their family worked. I also have said this numerous times here. I think it's perfectly normal for a female to be closer to her Mother. My expectations were that we would see them some holidays or make arrangements that suited them better, that they and us would visit from time to time, an occasional call or text. Nothing demanding, nothing extreme. Just a relationship of some sort. Not a complete cutoff of the entire family with no word as to why.
Pooh, I could not have said it better and i so agree! My expectations WERE the same! Now i have NO EXPECTATIONS and it helps tremendously!!!!!
"I think it's perfectly normal for a female to be closer to her Mother. My expectations were that we would see them some holidays or make arrangements that suited them better, that they and us would visit from time to time, an occasional call or text. Nothing demanding, nothing extreme. Just a relationship of some sort. Not a complete cutoff of the entire family with no word as to why."
Our situations here are so varied. Years ago, my son married (and eventually divorced) a woman that hated me with a passion before we met. Talk about a stacked deck! I finally figured out that what was so terrible about me was that my son loved me before he ever met her. She declared war before she even took a look at how that had all turned out. My lesson there was that it didn't matter what I said or did...and...it didn't matter what my son said or did; our relationship virtually ended because he was in survival mode. My choice was to back off and virtually disappear. He didn't come to me about it, probably because it had nothing to do with me. After the fact, he shared what took him there (he was on the rebound) and what he learned (how to stand up for himself.) And...he thanked me for not making it any worse. For the last 18 years, his remarriage has been something that has brought all three of us joy. Sometimes, there's a 'happily ever after'!
That's been my choice with OS as well Luise. There wasn't anything I could say or not say that was making a difference, so I'll leave them to it.
....and make that 3! LOL! Luise, I really believe my DS is also in survival mode with the whirlwind he has had in the past 6 yrs!
"My lesson there was that it didn't matter what I said or did...and...it didn't matter what my son said or did; our relationship virtually ended because he was in survival mode. My choice was to back off and virtually disappear. He didn't come to me about it, probably because it had nothing to do with me."\
...this mom has also backed off and may be disappearing in DS life but that is OK so long as I remain in focus for the remainder of MY life....
I'm curious if any of you have ever talked to your DILs, or even DSs and DILs together, to ask what type of relationship they want to have with you?
Of course!
MG - Most of us didn't come here until after we tried everything we could think of first.
Thank you Luise.
DD - There are no gurus here, just compassionate friends. Sending love...
So, my son invited me over for lunch yesterday. DIL was there and I told her that we missed seeing her on holidays and that my family would love it if she would join us at family occasions. DIL says she has had to work on holidays and I pointed out that she never seemed to have to work on holidays that she would see her family on. DIL said, "That is MY family, what do you expect, that I would not see them?" I told her no, but that would hope that she would consider us, her husband's family as family and what would happen when the baby comes. DIL said, "it's my child, it will be with me." My jaw dropped. I sent my son an email telling him exactly what the conversation was and am waiting for a reply.
JP - You tried. That's all you can do, as far as I know. Follow up emails may make it more complex. Expectations, no matter how reasonable, can be tough...since they are yours and no one is responsible to meet them. There's a marriage to honor beyond that. I'm so sorry.
JP, we're here for you. I've been told similar things by my DIL, and it's a bit shocking. No babies on our horizon but I'm preparing myself (no expectations) for the big cut off if/when they arrive.
To answer MG's question, asking my DS & DIL about our relationship would be seen as too intrusive and agressive, I'm guessing. My DIL told DS right after the wedding that she & her FOO hated us because we were "losers." She admitted we hadn't done or said anything wrong, she just hated us for who we were. This was after we'd gotten her out of a legal jam, paid for our share of the wedding expenses (her FOO is wealthy, we are not), invited her to vacation with us, etc.
I'm not sure I even care that much anymore after all the stuff we've gone through, to be honest with you.
WOW Pen!! Who is anyone to call someone else a loser? Money doesn't make one rich as most of us know. Your DIL sounds much like my youngest DIL. Her family has money also .
She is a spoiled little brat in her selfish behavior.
It does hurt my feelings but I keep it to myself. Any thing we've offered for the baby has been refused and we are told her Mom has gotten everything and then some.
I have to admit I find myself wondering how her Mom don't seem to mind. If she were in my place it would be horrible.
Just in the little tome I've been here I'm learning to let it go. Whatever will be, will be.
JPEG, I hope your son answers you and it's straightened out. But her side of the story in his ear won't be the same as yours. I'm sure.
It's just sad the time wasted over wanting to be boss and right.
Sorry for my typos ladies.
I meant what little (time) I've been here.
And I JP not JPEG
Quote from: DixieDarling on December 09, 2013, 11:22:26 PM
WOW Pen!! Who is anyone to call someone else a loser? Money doesn't make one rich as most of us know. Your DIL sounds much like my youngest DIL. Her family has money also .
She is a spoiled little brat in her selfish behavior.
It does hurt my feelings but I keep it to myself. Any thing we've offered for the baby has been refused and we are told her Mom has gotten everything and then some.
I have to admit I find myself wondering how her Mom don't seem to mind. If she were in my place it would be horrible.
Just in the little tome I've been here I'm learning to let it go. Whatever will be, will be.
JPEG, I hope your son answers you and it's straightened out. But her side of the story in his ear won't be the same as yours. I'm sure.
It's just sad the time wasted over wanting to be boss and right.
My DIL was not quite so careful. My son heard and witnessed her attack on me first hand.. He has told HER and me that his opinion of her changed drastically that night. However, he will remain there for his kids.. and I'm proud of him for that. He had a dad that walked out on us when he was just 4 and he remembers how it affected him.. He has said he will not do that to his kids. In the future? Who knows. Once the kids are grown I don't think DIL will be have him around. I'm not gloating or happy about that. I wish happiness for my son. I wish that he had married a nicer person. BUT.. you never really know anyone do you.
BUT.. you never really know anyone do you?
No Lilly sadly we don't. At least with your son hearing it first hand you know he knows. Has that helped any with how you're treated by her?
Quote from: DixieDarling on December 10, 2013, 05:41:33 AM
BUT.. you never really know anyone do you?
No Lilly sadly we don't. At least with your son hearing it first hand you know he knows. Has that helped any with how you're treated by her?
I have no contact with my DIL. But it has helped with my son. He brings the kids to see me. I don't know or particularly care about the dynamics of his marriage. It's none of my business really. Apparently he and she have worked out an agreement regarding me. Neither one of us has any desire to be in the other's company.
Family contains personalities, behaviors, preferences and norms that that sometimes collide with our own. While we are blessed to have the ability to chose our friends, family does not always equal friendship. The best we can hope for is respect in our own boundary building and if we readily show it, maybe we will get some respect back. Maybe not but we are always better for taking the high road.
you can pick your friends
and you can pick your nose
but you cant wipe your friends on the sofa!
totally pointless but I hope I got you to smile
Oh my, we have all been there. We were basically kicked to the curb by both sons who married within a year of each other. Both DILS come from extremely emeshed families and both made it clear right from the get go, holidays would be with their families first, because they had traditions that could not be broken. I grit my teeth and make do with what they deign to give us. Right now a nice holiday cruise is sounding good. ::)
One thing I did stress with both DS's is the real need for the young couples to form their own family and make their own traditions. Both FOO should be stepping back to let that happen. I'm giving them their space with no demands, and after a few years of very little contact, they are both initiating visits and contact, because the unfairness of the situation is becoming really clear, and they are getting tired of being the tag along to their wife's family dynamic. I don't say a word except to praise them for the adults they have become and remind them their lives are theirs to control and deal with.
trying, You sound like a very smart and strong woman. I am glad your boys are starting to do right by you.
I'm only having some small issues starting to appear with my youngest and newest DIL. The other two are really good people. I believe if ever our sons divorced them I'd be like Luise is with hers and stay family.
I spent the entire day with our middle sons wife today. She is the sweetest person I know. I don't know if she has a hateful bone in her body. My husband says if the new one ever spends any time around us as a family she will see how silly she's being. I on the other hand don't think she will ever admit a mistake.
Quote from: tryingmybest on December 10, 2013, 01:49:59 PM
One thing I did stress with both DS's is the real need for the young couples to form their own family and make their own traditions. Both FOO should be stepping back to let that happen.
Totally agree with this.
and the bottom line is, it doesn't happen. I think we are all in the next phase of helicopter parenting. Some, and let me stress the word SOME young adults are used to being the princesses and princes in their families of origin. They come first! Mom and Dad are involved in every part of their lives and it is take, take, take.
You have some parents and I stress again SOME parents whose whole identity is tied to their kids.
Some women see no need to disturb this dynamic after marriage - they just absorb their husbands into it, then our DS's get to be the prince of another family too, ???
Culturally DS's can't continue that relationship with their own families because then they become the dreaded "Mamas Boys". But they can join into their wife's family in basically the same role, and everybody is happy, especially their wives!
The minute mother's of sons start to complain we are portrayed as crazy demanding nut jobs only interesting in keeping our sons little boys, at the very time they are struggling to become MEN.
After carefully observing my DIL's it became really clear, one of them at least was actively trying to promote a conflict, because lets face it, then she could swoop down with the dreaded "cut-off" , and she wouldn't have to deal with any of us anymore.
So I decided to become the Stepford MIL. No demands total acceptance no complaints and trust me its driving her nuts ::)
Because DS, and to a certain extent his brother are beginning to see that not only is their FAMILY being pushed out of the picture THEY are too. While their parents are reinforcing their status as men, they are finding themselves being toted along like little boys by their in-laws, and their wives. It's not working.
When they come to us to complain I refuse to discuss it,saying its a discussion for them to have with their wives, or a therapist.
I don't want to sound happy about the situation, because I'm not. I want both sons to have happy mature marriages, and to do that they and their WIVES BOTH have to step away from their FOO, and build a new family.
Trying, i think you are so right about this! I am the Stepford MIL too! Now I am anyway. At the beginning, not so much! I had to get over my expectations and after giving up, I found peace in my current role of a married empty nester. No contact from DS since mid November but hey, I'm off the hook for any gifts again this year! When we do talk, I keep it light and friendly, never talk about my news unless he asks but never does. He might complain or talk about frustrations and I too simply say that I hope it works out and that i know he can make it happen.
It is very hard to keep my hands in my pockets because it is so much fun to me to buy for other folks. The best I can offer DS and his family at this time is basic connection. I will not send gifts to people I do not know, unless it involves anonymous charity. I have no idea what they want or already have. I could send money but again, why? DS is very financially stable on his own accord and gives his family a lot of things. They have a bit too much stuff in my opinion. I have always treasured time spent and memories built so the materialism is lost on me. My DS and DIL are part of what I call the Starbucks generation. "I kno this coffee is only worth less than a dollar but hey I'm worth it and look how special I am with this cup that tells others I have money and self importance!"
Your comment on waiting for the cut off from the DIL is also true in my case! SHe has a history of big cut offs:
GS 1 natural father and his family (who DIL lived with during pregnancy and delivery. She left when GS was 3 mos and NEVER looked back. Enter in psuedo GPs: Family friends who took on full blown GP role for 4 years. After she wed my son, she cut them out completely over nothing. After wedding, full cutoff of his FOO, except me. Next big cut off, me and DH!
Wonder who's left to cut? Wonder what this does to GC's attachment skills? Not my worry! I'm sure they will figure it out as they go along. They are quite capable in getting what they want.
Sometimes even being a "Stepford MIL" isn't the answer. I thing I WAS a Stepford MIL. I used to pride myself on staying out of their business and not offering advise or not demanding anything. What I learned was that behind my back, I was being accused of being uncaring and not interested. That and an entire laundry list of high crimes and misdemeanors I had no idea I had commited. I truely believe that with some DILs it simply doesn't matter. We are a situation to be rid of and to abolish somehow someway and for whatever trumped up reason.
I thought I had posted this earlier, but it seems to have disappeared.
When I give my DIL advice, I generally tell her to at least listen to me and then do what she thinks is best. I do not give my SIL advice as he is a big, bad cop type (LOL)!
I will tell you that I now know that I am being accused of the same thing Lilly. It happened innocently last year when a good friend, that I hadn't seen in awhile asked if she could talk to me. She then said, "I am going to ask you directly, even though I know it's none of my business because it just doesn't sound like you. I saw your DIL in the store the other day with your GD. I made the comment that I bet you were head over heels over her. DIL's reply was that no, you had chosen not to have anything to do with her. I didn't know what to say because I just found that so hard to believe out of you. So, I'm asking, is there more to the story?"
I laughed because this is not a person that is a gossip and I knew she was sincerely puzzled. I simply said, "It's hard to have anything to do with a GD that you were never even told about." She nodded and said, "I knew there was more. I'm so sorry."
So yes, that told me that DIL and probably even DS at this point are telling people that it's me that wants nothing to do with them and her. So in backing away and letting things be, I gave them different ammo. It's actually ok though because that also told me to stop second guessing my decision to stop contact because I knew then it didn't matter what I did or didn't do, I was going to be at fault. Sounds weird, but instead of making me mad, it gave me peace.
Pooh and the others here, Why do you suppose these young women want to hate us? Why do they jump from the start making us into something we never thought of let alone are?
I don't have any daughters and I will admit I'm clueless at raising one. But Mother raised 3 of us girls and I will tell you being hateful wasn't part of it.
And why do you think our sons are so ready to swallow hook, line and sinker what they are told about someone they know better than the person talking to them?
I was always defending something for awhile with my 2nd son after he married. He'd call upset saying his wife said I did so and so or said so and so.. Of course I wanted everything good and I had no hate for this lady at all so I would say, " I'm sorry I didn't mean that or sorry she thought so and so.." Then one day I just lost it and told him to stop acting like he didn't have a brain anymore. He KNEW ME and DIDN'T NEED his wife to explain what I meant or what my actions meant to him. He should be explaining them to HER. And that I NEVER EVER wanted to have him ask me something so darn stupid again.
I also told him if that was the life he wanted always going between his mom and his wife that was fine but I wanted no part in it.
It stopped. Years have went by now and I haven't gotten another phone call again concerning such stupid stuff from them. As a matter of fact I really love my DIL and we get along great.
Now the new DIL is a different story. She hasn't went to my son saying I have done or said anything. Nothing like that. Instead she has said up front that she has a family and we were his. And she didn't want any part of it. Breaks my heart though that our son has agreed to something like that. So that is where I'm stuck at. The girl doesn't want to know me. AT ALL!
Our oldest son before he married he told his wife that he talked to his parents at least once and most the time twice a week. That would never change. So if it was going to be a problem for her tell him now.. So all is great with them also.
Do you think maybe we should be raising our sons to have a little more backbone where their own FOO are concerned? Why is being a Mommas boy like a curse word? But being Daddy's girl or Mommys Angel a wonderful thing?
That to me is where we as parents MAY be missing the boat? Just some thoughts and questions I ask myself often. I only wish I had all the answers. Do any of you?
DD the way my DS/DIL have treated me has really gotten me thinking. I have always called my MIL and talked to her and asked advice but when I had a really important question I naturally went to my Mom. I did split times and holidays between the two families and once the kids came I spent holidays at home and invited different GPs over. I love my MIL and I know she loves me but to be honest the relationship I have with her did not get that close until my mother died. When Mom died my MIL was the natural 'go to' substitution and she has given me some really wonderful advice through the years. We have helped each other through some really rough times.
I think most of the wise women on this site are here because they really want that closeness with their AC and their spouses. I want it too and I was really upset that I did not get it from the start. At the very least I expected for them to respect me and respond when I contacted one of them. Well, that did not happen. I never would have just ignored my ILs when they called but then there was no such thing as caller ID. Anyway I am slowly coming to grips with life as it is.
I wonder if, when we do not get the attention we believe we deserve, we start acting like clingy friends. One way to never get a good friend is to act like you cannot live without them. You know, those people that send us in the opposite direction if we see them coming. The ones you are afraid will corner you at a party and tell you all about their health problems. So I guess we need to treat them like a possible friend. Call sometimes but always light and chatty, nothing too serious.
Anyway, my current strategy is to almost never call them. It seems to be working fairly well.
I personally would never expect to take my DILs mothers place or be equal to her in the same role. I didn't mean to ever imply that. I'm sure that is a special bond. But on the same hand I don't expect her mother to replace me either. My children were males but they were loved,cherished and cared for no less than a female child. That is what I was trying to say.
I am happy for my sons. I want them happy,loved and living their own lives. I'm happy to stay on the outline of that new circle.
I only hope not to become a memory before I'm buried is all. :)
Still, about this;
I wonder if, when we do not get the attention we believe we deserve, we start acting like clingy friends. One way to never get a good friend is to act like you cannot live without them >:(
I don't about everyone but this is so far from me . I am more of the person who doesn't want that constant attention. And I don't like anyone's company more than my own. LOL
guess that's why I'm here. I'm not the hang out type of gal. Never have been.
I am a loner.
DD you sound like a very independent and confident loner. That personality type can be very daunting...
Oh, I hope Im not daunting. I'm very independent and a confident loner.
My take on the whole thing is that we can't make sense of the senseless.
Hugs...
Did you ever hear that old joke about how a girl plans for her wedding day from the time she is a little girl. She has and idea about her dress, her bridesmaids, the color of her flowers, how many children she wants AND their names already picked and on and on... THE GROOM?... well, he's just the last piece of the puzzle to be named at a later date.. lol!! So this, and the questions asked in this thread got me thinking. Are the husbands, while important.. meerly a commodity? A resourse? The necessary component to make that dream wedding, marriage, and perfect 2.2 children? Are they something that are meant to be absorbed into the world of the female, without any thought of where they came from.. and for lack of a better analogy.. the factory in which they were made? The MIL must be dealth with... not as a new family member.... but as an interloper in that perfect dream world created since childhood. After all... when you finally get that dream car of yours... do you drive to Detroit and park outside of GMs headquarters to pay homage? lol!! I know this may be overly simplistic, but it bears some thought IMO.
Society is to blame for this I think. Ever hear the terms "catching a man" "snagging a husband" etc..?? Of course women are capable of being independent, and "manless" and those are very old fashioned terms, but I believe this mindset is ingrained. AND it implies ownership of that man or husband.... such as all the "you belong to me" stuff you hear. So think about ownership. How would you feel if some strange person steps into your life and claims part ownership of your prized posession? Your car or yacht cannot be 100% yours if someone else is claiming part of it.. or would like to use it part of the time. So while of course we know that people cannot be truely owned and none of us want to think that we "own" people.. we as moms would like to own part of their time and affection. I don't think this is conscious thought on the part of DILs.. but somehow I have to believe this enters into it. It's like saying.. this resourse is MINE now... all mine. Silly as it sounds.... you go away.
Lilly, I didn't dream a dream like that or think of the man I've loved heading on 30 years that way. But who knows? Some may? I've ALWAYS been the odd duck!
I think I'll adopt Luise's saying. "Can't make sense of the senseless." SO TRUE!
Women are raised now to not need anyone. They are strong,make good money etc. so maybe the need for family and all that comes with it is just not worth their time nor trouble?
Times have changed. Family is becoming a lost art.
I've said this before, and this is just for my situation, but I think mine boils down very simply. And I don't say this to be mean to DIL, it's just the truth about her upbringing. DIL's parents treated her like a Princess and she pretty much got anything she wanted. She was used to getting her way on everything. I have personally witnessed many incidents while they were dating of this. For example, her Dad and Brother would want to go eat at a certain place and that would be the plan until DIL stated she didn't want that, she wanted XXXXX. Mom would tell Dad and Brother that they were going there because that's what DIL wanted. It didn't matter what Dad and Brother wanted. Their wishes were given no consideration with Mom unless DIL agreed to it. I saw this many times. Dad and Brother did whatever Mom told them they were going to do. I actually used to feel very sorry for them. Her Dad is a very nice man, but a quiet man. This was the norm in their family and how their dynamic was.
When she was with us, we didn't operate that way. Our family is very conscious of everyone's wishes. If there was 5 of us, and 4 wanted to go eat at a certain place and DIL didn't, we went with the majority rules. Now, I wasn't mean, I would tell DIL that everyone else wanted to go here, so what if we swung through where she wanted to go and picked her up something. There was no compromising. She instead would get mad and huff up. Well, that would go over like a ton of bricks because we didn't cater to her tantrums either. We just basically ignored them. She wasn't used to that. She was used to a Mother that would have fawned over her and made everything better by giving in to her.
I can tell you this happened over and over again. Now, there were times we would do what she wanted to do, to make it fair. So if I am honest with myself, I have to admit, if you were raised where everything was always your way and then you walked into a family where you weren't treated special and you didn't get your way all the time, who would you want to be around? She is still treated that way by her Mother and family, so there is absolutely no incentive to come around my side.
As far as DS. It's simple. He loves her. I can sit back all day long and never understand why, but it doesn't matter what I think. He loves her. He wants to be with her and make her happy and to do that, he's gave up his family to please her. Is it to please her or to keep the peace? Either, both...who knows. But it is truly his decision to make and not mine. Or maybe he agrees with her. Maybe he thinks our family dynamics are not right and hers is. I could second guess that all day but in the end it boils down to he loves her. It wasn't how I thought things would be, but it is how it is.
Sometimes I think we are trying so hard to understand the "whys" that we forget that it can be very simple and boils down to love.
Quote from: DixieDarling on December 12, 2013, 05:48:08 AM
Women are raised now to not need anyone. They are strong,make good money etc. so maybe the need for family and all that comes with it is just not worth their time nor trouble?
Times have changed. Family is becoming a lost art.
Times may have changed... but thousands and thousands of years of hardwiring don't change quite so easily. I think people react to things in certain ways because of this. Perhaps it's instinct, but there are feelings and emotions that many of us are hard pressed to find rationale for.
My DIL was not the "Princess" as far as I can tell. She has three sisters. No brothers. BUT she comes from a very matriarchal family. The ladies RULE... call the shots... make the decisions and get their way. At family functions, the males, her father and uncles and now my son sit together quietly and watch TV and basically keep their mouths shut and stay out of the way.
Quote from: Pooh on December 12, 2013, 07:08:00 AM
Sometimes I think we are trying so hard to understand the "whys" that we forget that it can be very simple and boils down to love.
Or sex! ;) :D ;)
Tee hee
Bahahaha! Monroe! You kno that's right!
yeah... I used to think it was all about sex and about that being used to control.. BUT times have changed in that aspect too. Not many women today think they need to be married to indulge. Men have plenty of opportunites for that without the hassle. In my son's case.. I'm pretty sure it's about the kids.
Pooh, Where my youngest son is concerned you are completely right. That young man loves his wife deeply and that right there is why I am going to try and handle what ever comes. It is still up in the air if I can succeed.
At times he even glows. His wedding day is the happiest I do believe I had ever seen him. And I love him so much that it makes me happy when he's happy. (If that makes sense?)
When they told us they're were expecting it melted my heart to see the pure love and joy on my son's blushing face.
He was raised in a all male household except for me and he saw his father stand by me and protect and honor me. He is repeating this with his wife. I am so proud of him!!
I'm sad about his wife not wanting us as family much but our son says he will always be here for us and see us weekly. He thinks we will see his son also. Time will tell.
But yes Pooh, Love is the key here and as moms we all want true love and happiness for our children I believe.
Our youngest DIL is an only child and only grandchild in her family. No cousins. So it would stand to reason this young lady has never wanted anything that she did not get. When it comes to doing stuff the way she wants she gets her way. But as far as behaving spoiled and wasteful I haven't seen it. Maybe it's because she comes from a family with plenty of money? But she doesn't spend a lot. Actually like my son she seems very tight with money. LOL
@lilly, I agree. @ Monroe, VERY funny. :D
I liked my DIL right away. She was sweet, funny, polite and I enjoyed her. I also always felt she was a good mother and even without a lot of money, the kids had lot's of everything. She is VERY good with money and bargain hunting and stretching a dollar so the kids don't miss out on anything. I think because I liked and respected her so much, that it was a horrible feeling to find out after 10 years, how she really felt about me and to hear all the horrible nasty things she had to say to me. I was sort of getting the hint for about a year before that, but I kept asking my son if something was wrong, and kept getting that "nothing" and "its not you it's me" answers when I wanted to know if something was bothering her. I guess I should have asked her but I think I would have gotten the same. It really hurts when you find out someone you care about and you think cares about your REALLY hates your guts. Wow.. How could I ever re-establish any relationship or trust with her?
Sad thing is, we can't make them like us. My DIL does have some good qualities. She worked hard in school and landed a great job. She can be really sweet, when she wants to be. She's smart and I know she loves her family. I'm sure she is good Mother. I have no doubts that she loves GD with all her being and is taking really good care of her.
I'm sure DS sees all of those good qualities in her. I am comforted to know that I'm sure their lives are going well.
Lilly, I'm so sorry you went through that. I would of been floored also. You sound like someone who wants to see the good in others and that is a great thing. IMO
So sad your DIL didn't want to talk things out instead of letting them build up.
Pooh , your DIL sounds like a strong woman and smart. She should make the effort for her daughter. IMO
I wouldn't want any of my DILs to be like me. Heaven forbid. I only want like everyone to keep being family. I am so thankful I have that mostly.
There's no doubt that we are all motivated to some degree by unconscious conditioning. My take is the best I can do if try to be present as much as possible and to look closely at my reactions and opinions. Hugs...