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Tona, I so feel for you. What you express is very much the way I feel, too. I have two daughters and one is good to me. I know she loves me. The other, I'm afraid, is like her father. I agree with what Pen said about inherited characteristics. Sometimes nurture is just not enough to overcome the genes. With my DD, I see that the other half of the gene pool is very, very important. I could divorce her Dad, but I had no idea that I'd have to relive this pain again with my own daughter. Elsewhere, I mentioned a personality disorder and I do believe that is what she inherited from him. In this case, it's anti-social personality disorder. Of course, those afflicted never go for help because, after all, there is nothing wrong with *them,* only with other people. Of course, she makes her choices, and I decided that I will no longer make excuses for her or make up a story in my head about her to excuse her. That really would be insulting because it would be denying that she is an adult and she is responsible for everything she does and says, just like everyone else is, including me. I can also relate to everything Somom says ... there is such wisdom and comfort here. It helps to know that we are not the only ones and that our pain is not because we did anything wrong or were unworthy of being loved by those who should love us most of all.

Congratulations on becoming a grandma today, Autumnwoman! Nothing can take that away from you. I am sorry that your OS and DIL are making the choices they are, but perhaps becoming parents themselves will eventually give them a more loving perspective on what you did for your children. Much love to you and to your new little grandbaby boy.

Constantmargaret, I love your insight, too!

I write these letters constantly, mostly in my head. I "rehearse" what I might say to DD and I "rehearse" what I might say to others who know both of us and who might make innocent comments, naturally assuming that we are on speaking terms ... and so far, it has all come down to silence.

Anything I say to DD will be "wrong" somehow and anything I say to acquaintances is too much information. I think this "rehearsing" is useful in sorting out my own thoughts, and getting in touch with myself but it is not something that DD can take in, as we are in different places. I have no idea what is going through her mind and I find that disconcerting. I never could have imagined not understanding my own child. But I digress ... it is a beautiful, deep and thoughtful, wise letter you wrote, but I would not send it because the main thing that is wrong with it is that you do want something from him. You know you do - you want him to want what you want, a loving relationship. That's only natural - we all want to heal our relationships - but you are ultimately asking him for something, and that is setting yourself up for disappointment, imho.

This is about you and your growth as a human spirit learning what love is. May he do the same ... but if not, then you love him where he is and, most importantly, you are learning to love and honor yourself in the process. I also think that face-to-face is best when the time comes, and it will, and you will know then what to say then because you have done the foundation work by writing letters like this to yourself.

Hello ArtLady, Why don't you Skype? It's a free download and it's free anywhere in the world computer to computer. You can see each other and chat. Can't complain about free! Just a thought ...

Ruthann, my heart does go out to you. I am not saying that your DD is like mine, but what you wrote is exactly how this heartbreak started with me. For years now, since I moved back to the same city as DD, I modeled the close relationship I wanted with her. She was never very responsive. I "filled in the gap" and gave her what I wanted in return because I just couldn't believe that she didn't want the same thing. We even had conversations about the situation where I asked if she even wanted a relationship with me. At that time, she said she did. To make a long story short, I found out that I am not dealing with a mature person who can see me as an individual in my own right. Every time I have shared my feelings with her she has twisted it around to be entirely about her. Maybe it's not solely about being immature, although she's 32 and has never had to be there for anyone else like her own child, maybe that's just the way she is. Her world revolves around her social life, her hair, her clothes and shoes, her expensive furnishings for apartments which she has to get rid of when she moves, her boyfriends and her work. She is not like me. At her age, I was in an unhappy marriage already for 9 years and I had two small children and a house to keep for a family. I would have *loved* to have my mother around to help and be a part of our lives, but DD is not me. All I ever wanted was a family and she doesn't seem to want family at all. Not me, not her sister. I don't know, maybe living such a self-centric life changes people. Maybe that's who they become.

If someone had told me a year ago that my DD doesn't love me the way that I love her, I would not have believed it so there was no way I could have protected myself. It took DD hanging up on me in one of my darkest hours to make me realize that she is not like me and doesn't want what I want. She doesn't hold dear what I hold dear and I could tell you what I think of what she holds dear, but I think you already know. On another thread, someone said that they probably don't think about us at all, and that is probably true. I think about her several times a day but I imagine that she is relieved and probably even feels quite proud of herself that she doesn't have to carry on a relationship with me anymore and far from feeling remorse, she probably blames me.

I don't have any magic answers, but be careful in all the giving you do. If she were an adult friend, you wouldn't do all the giving, would you? You would offer something, then the other person would offer something and there would be reciprocity. If there is no return, then that's a message that she doesn't want the same thing from the relationship. It was Annie Liebowitz, I think, who said, "We are dragged, kicking and screaming, into adulthood by our children." I have to accept that she is who she is because she left me no choice with no room for ambiguity. But on the other side, there is life, and it's a good life, even if it's not the one we envisioned.

I am loving this thread! I can relate to what Kate and KeysGirl wrote so well. I don't know what the MACHM site is, but reading your posts made me realize that my DD is probably afflicted in some degree with anti-social personality disorder. She is, regrettably, more like her Dad than like me, and that's where she got it. My other DD, the one who loves me, is more like me. One out of two ain't bad, I guess.

Although my parents were not abusive, I did learn how to be a doormat from my mother and from my father's lack of interest in me, being a Narcissist. A Narcissist with a good heart, actually, I know that's hard to believe, but he was a good human being who never realized that there was something important missing in him and therefore did some incredibly cruel things to people he should have loved. There is no effective treatment for Narcissism, anyway.

I like to play revisionist personal history, and go over what I would have done then had I known what I know now. If I had my life to live over, I would have removed myself from all the nasty, ugly treatment I got from my Dad via his new wife and her whacko daughter instead of jumping through their hoops hoping to "live up" to someone who met with their approval. That was never going to happen and trying just fanned their hideous egos. The same for my ex. I never would have married him. I would have gone with my first protective and correct reaction upon meeting him and run as fast as could out of his magnetic field.

So we learn from our FOO that we have to earn love, and that's a lie. We become "people pleasers." We had to grow up and relearn that we are worth loving for ourselves, just as we are. We have to find self-worth within which is what we should have been taught from the time we were born but, for some reason, we were not given that gift and have to give it to ourselves.

The more I read about anti-social personality disorder, the more I recognize DD. There are degrees of it, of course. My influence on her mitigated how nasty she could have been, and my half of the gene pool, of course. But now that she's hooked up with BF "A," they are reflecting each other. I don't think she can be a happy person on this current path, but that's up to her. I'm not interested in being a target. We have not spoken since January 20 except for one text she sent me. She lives 1/2 mile away. I hate to say this, but I don't miss her passive-aggressive stuff or her begrudging, tiny attentions or her hostile attitude. It's really a bit of a relief! I do miss the person she is when she is at her best. But I rarely saw that side ...

I do wonder what she is thinking but it's pointless to go there. She never owns what she does or says and she doesn't apologize for anything, and that is what is required, so I guess we will remain at a standstill until something changes. I do think it's unnatural not to love your own mother. I guess it's reality time, and no one promised us a rose garden, but there is the rest of life and it goes on. My focus this year is to fulfill my own dreams and to learn how to be in a healthy relationship with a partner, yet to be discovered, but I'm working on it!

Love and hugs to all of you and thank you from the bottom of my heart for all of your thoughts and for sharing your stories which affirm that we are neither alone nor isolated in our heartache.

Glad you like it, firelight! I have to keep re-reading it and it helps.

I'm in a slightly different frame of mind today. I woke up not thinking like a victim or a martyr - which is how I feel most of the time. My thoughts this morning were, you know what? If DD doesn't appreciate me, then that's her loss. She was so blessed with a great Mom to counteract her self-centered, heartless father and to protect her from him. Everything I've done for her since before she was born was a gift of love. Every gesture since has been my pleasure and my joy. But they were gifts, not something I owe her, and not only do I not deserve her bad treatment, I will not accept it. Who does she think she is to begrudgingly do me the odd favor here and there, to barely come through with a card on my birthday or Mother's Day, to patronize me with her tiny attentions cast sparingly my way now and then? I say, don't do me any "favors," DD! If you don't know what you've got by now, then I don't know what to say. Until DD can feel some appreciation for the great blessings that have been bestowed on her in this life, and do whatever it is she does for me with thankfulness that she still has me here to talk to, then I will not be accepting any begrudging crumbs thrown my way. DD doesn't acknowledge it, so I have to - and I'm going to say it like it is - she was so lucky to have me as her Mom!

Until she "gets" that other people have feelings, that they are important and that she is not the center of the Universe, then this silence between us will continue. I don't deserve it, it's not what I earned, and I'm not accepting it. I love her from a distance and wish her all good things.

Sorry, Luise. I didn't mean to infringe on copyright. The URL is :

http://www.amazon.com/Verbally-Abusive-Relationship-recognize-respond/dp/1440504636/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1328062976&sr=8-1

and the comment I'm referring to is the second review found by scrolling down the page.

A book was also brought to my attention and highly recommended by a PhD psychologist who was helped in her own relationship. I have not read it yet, but I did find one of the comments very interesting. The book is "The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans. I hope there is some comfort here as well for others.

I just found this and it helps, so I had to share. I hope this gives some comfort to someone else, as well. :


http://www.inspirationpeak.com/cgi-bin/poetry.cgi?record=77

Thank you all for your valued and insightful input. I would say that you have no idea how much it means to me, but I think that you do! Hugs and Love to all of you!

Hi Luise, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that being friends with our AC was a certainty. It's an ideal and what we want, but we don't always get what we want. It *does* happen, though, and that's the way it should be - ideally. We have to live in reality, unfortunately. Very good insight about AC having to individuate. You expect it at various stages of childhood, but I didn't think about it in a 32-yr old.

I had a shock tonight which made it hard for me to eat my brussels sprouts - DD disappeared off Facebook. Her BF "A" is still there, but not her. Of course, my reaction was that he is moving very fast to isolate her, and that may still be true, but I did get a text from her saying that she had deactivated her account "for a while" and not to worry, she hadn't unfriended me. I decided not to respond, as I'm doing everything now the opposite of the way I normally would. My strategy is to help her individuate sooner rather than later.

Thanks, Doe. It sounds like a curse? Revenge? No, I'm just protecting and honoring myself. She'll never know I've taken her off my acc't unless she does try to strip it. Neither does she know that I'm not speaking to her - it's only been 5 days since she hung up on me - and I'm not calling to tell her that I'm not calling her . She'll figure it out in about a month and she won't care. She's quite smug about hanging up on me. I'm sure she thinks she's being "strong" and showing off to A. She is wrong, of course, but that's beside the point.

We train others how to treat us and I have finally drawn the line. I now have boundaries and some self-esteem for a change. The ball is in her court and she can either grow up, or not. But no doors have been slammed to a DD who can be respectful and pleasant. She's the loser here and she's in for a world of hurt with this guy. Do I care? Yes. Can I change her path? No. It's all up to her. Maybe she will grow up if she has to lick her wounds all by herself this time. And that's what will have to happen because that's what she created. She knows me well enough by now to know that I love her no matter what, but a rescuer I am no more. They don't respect us for bailing them out and then being "understanding" and "patient" with their abuse. They have no respect for that - and I finally get it. Why should they value and respect us if we don't value and respect ourselves? Stress is what I had before I understood that.

ShoreWil, that's the way it should be. I'm a little confused by your post because first you say you agree that mothers and their grown daughters can't be friends, but that's what happened with you and your mother and it's a problem? Of course you miss her. You'll never have another Mom and if you had a good one, she was the best friend you'll ever have. Who else in this cruel world is going to love you no matter what? It sounds like you appreciated your Mom and that made both of you winners. My neighbor and her 36-year old daughter are best friends. I have to say, the constant love and support they show each other makes me a little jealous because my DD is a very long way from doing anything thoughtful or supportive for me.

As I wrote a long post back in Dec. on the first thread I started, I won't say it all again, but I have always been there for DD, no matter what it took. I have been the kind of mother that most of her friends only wish they had and she has even acknowledged that. But it's all been a one-way street. If I ever actually needed anything, then I am just out of luck. It's all about her, her, her, and guess what? I don't think so.

Since she hung up on me last Friday night after I told her that I felt completely unloved and unappreciated, it's over. I don't know who she thinks she is. Not someone I like, that's for sure. I am no longer available for abuse. I am enacting a zero-tolerance law on abusing me.

I want no contact with her, but wish her well. She will need it with the new boyfriend "A" who is an emotional manipulator bringing out the worst in her. He wins - he has alienated her family (including her sister) and I'm sure her friends will be next. I am aware that he has her permission to go down this road. So go down it.

Today I took her name off my bank acc't to protect myself. Who knows what "A" is capable of talking her into? I just know that I'm not going to be the one with a stripped bank acc't because of them.

Until she grows up (she's 32) and becomes someone with worthwhile values and priorities, like the ones she was raised with, I do not want to be around her. Everything from now on she will have to earn because I am getting some self-respect and slapping down boundaries. There's a chance my house will sell soon and I have to admit, I am kind of looking forward to moving and not telling her. I suppose I will have to let her know that she has to make other arrangements for the large pieces of furniture she has stored here, though. I'll text it.

What will she do with it? Quite a problem, but not mine! I also need to take her off of my Medical Power of Attorney because when it comes to pulling the plug, I want someone who loves and cares about me to decide that.

It could have been so lovely; it was so easy - you just give and receive love. But no. She wants none of that! And you know what? She just lost her mother, the best friend she'll ever have, but what did I lose? An illusion. I'll always love her, but be her poison pot? Never. She can just find herself another sucker for that honor.

Thank you all for the good input and the interesting thought about avoiding the void of having to face ourselves if we're not obsessing about a problem child. Why not? It could very well be true ... and if we're honest, we know who we are ... people use all kinds of other things to avoid the void - TV, food, games, etc. - why not troubled relationships, too? They certainly can be time-consuming, attention-getting and all-consuming.

A thought occurred to me while reading some of the other threads. I think that I deserve to be treated with caring and respect by my DD. I am not "grateful" for any little crumbs she might toss my way if she feels like it. Phooey on that! Why should I feel so needy? I have *already* earned her respect and gratitude. Whether she is up to acknowledging it or not is up to her according to her desire to grow up. I refuse to beg for any little attention or sign that she appreciates me. Why should I? That's pathetic, is it not? The ball is in her court, not mine. I know who I am and what I've done and that stands on its own. I'm not perfect, but she was darn lucky to have me as her Mom. I'm not groveling or jumping through any hoops in hopes of getting something I've already earned. I think they play us - they play on our  low self-esteem so they can be in control. Well, don't give them control they have not come by honestly. It's not good for them and it's certainly not good for us. You are older and wiser than they are, so know it.

This is where those boundaries come in. Know who you are, acknowledge all the good things you have done and the good things you are as a person, and stand by it. You know you deserve respect, appreciation and gratitude. If you are the only person who honors it, then so be it! But don't play their games. Don't enable their immature, selfish, self-serving temper tantrums. I think I've enabled some of DD's bad behavior by being too humble, too accepting and too patient. Immature, selfish people take their cues from their victim - if you accept their bad treatment, they tell themselves that you agree with them that you *do* deserve it.

I should have called it like it is all along. But I didn't want to "alienate" her. Well, where are we now? Where did that tack get me? I think that I've had a boundary problem. I didn't defend mine and she took full advantage. Give yourself a hug and admit that you're a good person, with or without acknowledgment from anyone else and don't accept abusive behavior from anyone, especially people you love. If they can't find their way clear to love you back, then that's on them, not you.