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Problem Solving => Adult Sons and/or Adult Daughters => Topic started by: Elise on February 08, 2012, 12:25:56 PM

Title: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: Elise on February 08, 2012, 12:25:56 PM
Along with so many wise women here, I have a long sad story of increasing dissonance in recent years with only son in his 30's. Great relationship always until he began to get ready to marry a number of years ago. Finally, now he has indicated willingness to try to avert complete estrangement ( close to that in recent months) using a family therapist of his choosing via the web as we live in different parts of the country. Setting clear boundaries and conditions of communication didn't work months ago  ( even though he agreed to them initially as my bottom line ) and culminated in a debacle during a 3 hour visit around Xmas in person. I have been working on acceptance and peace for myself, having learned to let go of all expectations other than respect in communication with the help of you wise women. 

Louise - I want to move next to you.

I am not in a great place in my heart with this, yet much better than had I not found this site months ago. Thank you all for the help you have given me by sharing your stories and experiences. You are all so authentic it brings tears to my eyes to write this sentence.

I am weary and wary, yet trying to hang on to some hope. This could be the breakthrough I have prayed for or this could be the final 'dump on mom'. Any advice?
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: luise.volta on February 08, 2012, 12:33:18 PM
Hey, I am next door, right? ;) Click! All I can suggest, and for me it is terribly hard to do, is to not get hooked on any expectations. We can't help but have them but we need to get that others are going to do what they do. Sometimes they try and fail. Sometimes we all do. Sending love...
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: Doe on February 08, 2012, 01:14:14 PM
Setting clear boundaries and conditions of communication didn't work months ago  ( even though he agreed to them initially as my bottom line )

I think it takes more than a few months to undo decades worth of behavior and I think that working on your own personal boundaries, even if he doesn't know about them, is very, very important.  Maybe it's something you have to consciously put up every day.

I don't have any experience with family therapy, though.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: Pen on February 08, 2012, 09:16:54 PM
Worrying, if it looks like it's becoming a "dump on Mom" session (where's Dr. Seuss when you need him?) just bow out. You deserve better than to be beat up on by DS & therapist.

I agree about setting boundaries and having no expectations but to have hope at the same time. Best wishes.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: jill1963 on February 09, 2012, 01:54:02 AM
hi Worrying,

I do have a small amount of experience with family therapy,  it was suggested many eons ago that we went to a family session with my ODD's counselor, my ODD was badly bullied at school and i was forever in and out of there trying to sort things out, this culminated when my ODD was 16-17 ( 16 is when they leave school in the UK) being in a day unit for people with severe depression and anxiety, at the time i could not go anywhere without my ODD being with me as she was that fearful of all things (which was extremely hard to deal with at times)
Anyway, i can say that i did not enjoy this family therapy session as it turned out to be a 'gang up on Mom' day  :( , every little thing i had done wrong was bought up, no positive things i had done were included, my DH did not attend, i as always did as i had always been there for my 2 DD's , to me this was possibly the counsellors fault for the way she conducted the session, but that is no excuse for me not really being able to put my side.
Therefore when i had counselling myself many years later and it was suggested that i had my family in for a therapy session it was a categorical no!  as i knew how it would probably turn out and i did not want to subject myself to that again, possibly a cowardly thing to do but for my self preservation i did not want to put myself in the line of fire for something that i am pretty sure wouldn't change anything in my case.

if you do go for it go in with an open mind but don't expect miracles.

Jillx
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: pam1 on February 09, 2012, 07:47:20 AM
We have not gone but it was brought to the table in dealing with MIL.  The therapist who would be involved ask for a schedule from each of us so he would have an idea of what might be brought up.  I thought that was a responsible way to do it. 

But if it is like Pen said "dump on Mom" session I would decline.  It would only make matters worse.  There's good and bad therapists.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: somom on February 09, 2012, 07:48:11 AM
Dear Worrying,  I am with you on your pain and loss.  No one should have to go through that.  My suggestion is this:  will there be a solo session with each before a group?  Because I fear the counselor would only have the ac "truths" to go on.  Sometimes ac really did not understand or we were not able to explain things for their protection at the time, so their "reality" really isn't really why so I fear that will be the basis for the discussion.  Good luck with whatever you decide.  I know you deserve so much better than what you have been getting!
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: Elise on February 09, 2012, 09:23:43 AM
Thanks all for the input - helps me consider the 'what ifs' ahead of whenever this therapy will happen as my ds will set it up if he follows through on his suggestion.

Louse: You are the mommy to all of us here and your grounded and experienced words guide me.  The positive energy field you radiate comes right through the wires to all of us. I will try to keep those pesky expectations under control - currently the one I have to keep putting down is... if I can listen and not react (even if it is a dump session) maybe I will get some insight into the  pesky 'why' I have worked so hard to let go of.  So your words are right on. Right back to you Louise and all with the love.

Doe; I went into therapy a number of months ago and finally have firm boundaries, though they may be broached in a therapy environment. I do feel some hope as ds suggested this - he must finally realize after the Xmas debacle when I walked away for the only time, that I truely have come to  the end of my rope and been focusing on what I need to go on alone and be the older woman filled with laughter I am determined to be.

Pen - you always inject the humor just when needed - thanks. I'll keep Dr. Seuss in mind if I feel like I am about to lose it.

Jill - my therapist told me the proper conditions are that the therapist have no background or knowledge of either party prior to the first session so as to avoid any bias.  The therapists own issues can get keyed anyway sometimes, yet those conditions are the best set up for possible success in family therapy. I am so sorry you have had to deal with the dump on you scenario you described. If comfortable can you tell me how it turned out Jill?

Pam;  good food for thought - I have no idea what this might entail as I do not know if DS has or will go ahead with this.  I did communicate back via email the conditions my therapist said are appropriate, so will see when or if there is follow through from ds. I sort of like the idea of an agenda though whatever therapist he chooses will no doubt have their own way of setting it up. I am concerned since ds's wife is a clinical psychologist and I saw her 'spongy' ethics' in an unrelated situation 2 years ago. I don't thnk I will have any way of knowing if it is a dump on mom session ahead of time, so will just gird myself with the mantra " I can get through anything - it is only 50 minutes" or whatever.  I do think I have to try everything possible that does not entail giving up 'me'.

Somom; The words and terrible disresepct come out of my son's mouth. Since the labels flung at me are psych ones he never used before this started 3 years ago when he brought back his former GF  in his life and has now married her, and it escalated to real emotional abuse to me, he is being torn apart.  In my case, he is the one pursuing me and has been the one in all that time - way too many phone calls until I said STOP finally months ago.  I want him to be happy, not torn like this. I can see my DS's pain in his words even as he flung his garbage at me. I have come to the point where I am willing to just meet him in spirit beyond words and physical presence - no one can take that away - even him. Since he wants me in his life, only on terms not acceptable to me, (accepting his perceptions I am crazy as my reality) it seems a rather different scenario than I mostly have read about here. The conflict between his wanting me in his life and his assesment of me as a total crazy person is just maddening to me. If he really believes all that why does he not just let go or satisfy himself with infrequent phone calls staying on light conversation? Instead he was always through these years increasingly wanting to talk about our relationship - long after I had would have been happy with infrequent, just light ' catching up' calls.

Why didn't I know these adult children could cause us such distress. It sure is a different world than the one I was raised in and the modeling he witnessed growing up. aaargh

My therapist said it isn't all the mothers fault anymore - the culture is having huge impact on our ac. Small comfort though.

The sun is shining, and tomorrow may be better.  Thanks all - you are all in my thoughts and prayers.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: Scoop on February 09, 2012, 10:09:39 AM
Worrying - I'd like to point out that it doesn't even have to be 50 minutes, if it turns into a "jump on Mom" type of session.  You can leave whenever you want.  Sometimes I find it helpful to know that I can leave a situation, I can usually last longer, if I know that I have an 'exit'.

Of course, you should go in armed with statements for the therapist like:

"Does all of this re-hashing of the past help us to move forward?"

"I'm starting to feel like this is a mom-bashing session.  Can you direct us to a different topic?"

"Therapist, I have apologized extensively for these things, can you suggest a way for us to build a bridge and get over it."

Because I can see where if you just up and leave, it looks like YOU are abandoning this attempt at reconciliation.  So I think that you should TRY and get the therapist to steer the conversation elsewhere.  And I really think you should write these lines down on cue cards, and have them in your hands during the session.  But really, if it gets too bad, you CAN leave.

"I did not come here for you to spend 50 minutes bashing me.  I did the best I could with what I knew at the time.  Perhaps you need more time with a therapist to work on forgiveness.  I refuse to accept anymore of this bashing.  Unless you're willing to move forward, I'm leaving.  Do you want to move forward?"
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: somom on February 09, 2012, 11:26:18 AM
Dear Worrying, As you said you can hear and see the pain in your son.  I have heard and seen that with my estranged daughter.  Apologizing, supporting, and keeping it on the lite side have not done anything for my situation with her.  I too want her to not be in so much conflict.  I think we mothers who love our children truly do not want that.  Whatever our children think we did to hurt them was never done intentionally or willfully.  But after respectful limits, my daughter still wants to hurt me and it is so obvious to everyone in my family.  It does not matter what avenue she uses--email, texting, phone calls, etc.etc.  I know you want the best for your son, but do you think, as with my daughter even after listening and validating her feelings, and explanations of why, he wants revenge and wants to make you feel badly.  It is a conscious effort to hurt which is on a whole different plane than what we might have done to unconsciously hurt our children raising them.  I think there is a lot of work that needs to be done on his part for there to be a solution.  Plus I think he really needs to listen to your words and try to understand.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: Elise on February 09, 2012, 05:50:42 PM
Scoop: excellent point, knowing I can leave and being armed with some statements if it becomes uncomfortable.  I'm shaking my head still that I need to prepare myself to interact with my son, getting used to it yet still shaking my head in disbelief. Having statements written out will help me and since it will be therapy via skype or on the web since we live far distant,  it will be easy to have some cue cards on hand without anyone knowing.

In my case I do not know what the accusations are of what I did wrong, since it is only finally now at Xmas that he hurled at me that I didn't want him to marry. That is the first direct accusation of my having done something wrong in the 3 years the emotional abuse has gone on. In the beginning I pleaded for examples of the behaviors he told me I had and he would or could not tell me. Finally I stopped pleading and just tried to wait it out, for things to settle in his life and new marriage and it only got worse over time.  Many many ranting phone calls interspersed with lighter decent though not close ones of much shorter duration. So I want to listen without reacting, I want to know. I was not a perfect mom and I can apologize for whatever I did Wong in his opinion if only I know what it is. The one about me not wanting him to marry is not in any stretch of the imagination true though, as I thought it was the only happy thing left between us the last years as he moved toward his marriage a year ago. It did hurt, that accusation, since it made me feel so hopeless, as in, if he didn't know how hard I worked to stay up and loving and kind in the face of the abuse and over the years did not believe me in how I felt, then he was participating in a complete ruse with me which makes me so sad. I took the diamond off my finger for him to give my DIL and welcomed her with open arms and put on a big party for them which I really could not afford and always between us spoke of her only in glowing terms.  I thought they were totally right for each other, though now I wonder if it does all have to do with my dil yet I do not know.  She is a chilly one and only this year at the wedding and parties did I see she is not like she is with me around other people. Your posts always interest me Scoop - have been obsessed a bit with reading all on this subject the last weeks.

It has been impossible to get through anything to my son as he told me in many ways and many times how I am, what I think, and that I am crazy using all the psych labels he could find.  It is like a different person than the son I knew for 30 years.

Somom; I still can't believe he wants to hurt me or wants revenge- maybe his wife does though. Something is tearing my son apart and I do not want it to go on. I can let go completely easier than continue to experience this. My therapist thinks it is projection and that I am the safe place for him. Well, I am not  safe anymore, he is in his 30's and he is hurting me and himself too much, too long. I will always love him, he cannot change that no matter what he does.

I could understand from his hurling abuse at me if he disconnected, yet he does not do that, he keeps trying and trying to get me to agree to his perceptions that I am crazy. He complains I do not call him, while I have no interest in calling since he does not let even a week go by without calling until the recent complete cutoffs in the fall - one a couple of months and now 6 weeks since Xmas. This is maddening for sure. He thinks he needs no help with this and dil probably feeds into that as she is a clinical psychologist newly minted. Oh joy! Oops, that is my sarcastic self - one of my labels!!  For some reason he cannot listen to me or try to understand or even agree to disagree and go on. So I wait because you are completely correct, until we can hear each other no resolution is possible. And until he can observe the minimum boundary of respectful communication (the only expectation I have left) I want nothing to do with him. I no longer let him hurt his spirit or me with his disrespect.  He knows that in spades from our Xmas debacle where I left him on a street and drove away we he violated the boundary after agreeing to it. Maybe he didn't believe me, well he does now.  So keep your fingers crossed for therapy helping one or both of us - miracles can happen I keep telling myself, but now I need proof not just faith, in this situation.

Conscious effort to hurt - that is hard to think could be true. Something about me is so threatening to him now, you may be correct though.  Then just hate me and go away. This a total and complete mess. What happened to my kind sweet son who cares about everyone and has a heart as big as the sky? I would know if something happened between us and it didn't.  I hope you are ok somom, you are going through this as well.  Please take care of you. Can I ask how old your daughter is and how long you have been dealing with this? 
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: Silver Spring on February 09, 2012, 06:14:03 PM
Worrying,

I have been through family therapy twice.  It is uncomfortable, and it does often seem like everyone else is ganging up on you, but it supposed to be raw, so everyone can move forward. From what you say about your son, it sounds like you have a lot that you need to say as well. If you are in the hot seat, just remember that your son and anyone else in therapy will be in that same exact position at some point during your therapy, and they will have the same feelings about it that you do (feeling ganged up on). I've managed to sit through that and eventually it passes and you do come out to another way of understanding one another. I am pretty sure some of your son's feelings will be expressed in therapy that the therapist will agree with, but then again, the therapist is bound to agree with your feelings as well. Surprisingly, therapy is often about letting go, which if your son is as you say, means that the therapist will be working with him to get past his anger and to a more comfortable position in his life, hopefully one with with forgiveness for whatever it is he thinks you or anyone else in his life did wrong. Both of my sessions were really tough the first few times we met, and then it got easier. Give it a real shot, because it sounds like it is your son that has some issues to work out and he may need your help to do that. Just make sure you ALL like the therapist and are comfortable with them. If you think the therapist is a flake/condescending/pushy/dismissive or any other adjective you don't like, it probably won't get you far.  I have found that therapy with the family is actually more of a help than therapy alone because the therapist just validates everything I say when I am by myself. When I'm with the family, there is a working live dynamic that is beyond any of our complete control and THAT is what the therapist works on. Since most of us are hardly ever totally alone all the time, and in family issues, no matter what they may be, none of us are ever 100% right, I think the family session works best. I used to not believe in therapy, but I think it can be successful if done right and with a commitment.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: somom on February 09, 2012, 06:23:50 PM
dear worrying,  My daughter just turned 30 and I have been dealing with this for about 10 years.  And thru the years it has just escalated to where she has said and done horrible things on facebook, to my friends and my immediate family.  After all this I have now pulled back and calmly told her I am here for her to heal but will not be a doormat for her to abuse.  She basically has no contact with me now.  I have apologized a million times and meant it, but she still comes at me.  I really feel it is revenge to hurt.  We could start over but she will not have any of it, so to me there is no other explanation than to just get back at me.  I am okay most days and I realize it is hers to deal with now.  I am hoping more maturity will help.  As they say, time heals all wounds.  I hope that for you.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: somom on February 09, 2012, 06:39:47 PM
worrying--I also wanted to add it is so obvious and so very special that in the end you have your son's pain and healing in your very core.  You are a good, good mother.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: luise.volta on February 09, 2012, 07:54:23 PM
My eldest son wanted me to go to his therapist with him. It looked to me like all he was doing was getting more angry in therapy...and I wasn't about to attend a kangaroo court or a "them against me shootout." I let him know that he was an adult and needed to work through whatever he needed to work through, just like I did when I became an adult and had to process the things in my childhood that had been difficult.

Conversely, when my youngest son came to the place where he was facing what he wanted to keep from his upbringing and what he wanted to toss...he came to me and told me that he knew I had done my best and thanked me. Then he said that the ball was in his court from then on. He had watched his brother's brutality and would have none of it.

Two men from the same home...raised by the same mom and dad.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: Elise on February 09, 2012, 09:06:11 PM
Louise; My son was as your youngest son, thanked me many times from early 20's on, even said he wanted to raise his kids very much like I had him, was continuing to tell me things like that until 29.  Then he changed to the angry man and that escalated to intolerablility fall '11. He refuses so far to tell me what I have done wrong, what he didn't like or resents me for, just spews resentment ( very mild term for what has gone on).  He has refused therapy until now, so am hoping family therapy will at least get him to tell me something concrete other than that I am crazy and that I don't care about him.  Stay tuned... Did elder son ever get peaceful and loving again?

Loving the discussion and info on the elder thread - can you tell? lol pent up, that is right.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: luise.volta on February 09, 2012, 09:22:28 PM
Elder son tried to like me. Called every Sat., was nice at family gatherings, sent flowers for my birthday, hugged me...in a valiant effort to get past it. He died at 52 of a sleep apnea induced stroke. His wife wrote me a hate letter nine days later telling me I was the most evil mother in the world and had caused him unbearable suffering. Younger son said elder son preached to him how awful I was for as long as he could remember. (Seven years difference...so pretty much all of his life.)

We have to give up looking for "whys" and logic. We can't fathom the perceptions of others and have to stay with our own truth.
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: Elise on February 10, 2012, 06:47:03 AM
I am so sorry Louise, that had to be so painful. Thank you for the gentle reminder not to get drawn back in, how quickly our 'mom hopes' rise with the least little tidbit of hope and those pesky expectations are not far behind.  I felt a chill reading "Elder son tried to like me. Called every Sat., was nice at family gatherings, sent flowers for my birthday, hugged me...in a valiant effort to get past it".  I have seen that in the past year with my son - never feels authentic to me though, his eyes and  all the non verbal cues, pauses, etc. betray his tension in those moments to me. 

It is a beautiful white world today where I live in the snow zone, so I will bundle up and get surrounded by 'white light'. I am tired of the makings of man.

Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: herbalescapes on February 10, 2012, 06:48:30 AM
The quality of counseling is going to depend a lot on the counselor.  If s/he can't separate their own biases or has a strict "it's always the mother's fault" attitude, you're not going to have good results.  On the other hand, counseling won't be like a nice tea party.  Ugly issues and attitudes may come out.  Honesty is sooooo important.  But you can be honest and polite at the same time, contrary to popular belief. 

If your son insists on picking out the counselor, do some research on whomever he picks. 

Counseling is just a tool.  You can have the most tremendous sessions ever, but if no one changes actions or attitudes the other 167 hours a week, the relationship won't be healed.  An alcoholic can attend 3 AA meeting every day, but if s/he continues to down a bottle of wine a day, no recovery will happen.  I've known some instances where people complain about the time they spend in counseling but nothing seems to get better, but on closer questioning, you realize they aren't doing anything but attending their sessions.

Also, it's easy to blame the counselor if results aren't forthcoming.  Sometimes it is the counselor's fault - at least partially.  But you need a lot of self-honesty to make it work.  Not everyone is up for that.

Good Luck!
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: luise.volta on February 10, 2012, 08:44:55 AM
W - Yes, W., the in-authenticity is deadly. Walking on eggshells...trying, endlessly to get past "The elephant int the middle of the living room." Sometimes I felt it was better than nothing, but not always. Sending love...
Title: Re: Does anyone have experience with family therapy?
Post by: Elise on February 10, 2012, 09:57:20 AM
Herbal and Silver and Louise;  Thanks for the great info and thoughts to keep in mind. I had already been thinking how it might be my ds  and I might come across to a therapist as ok though not particularly close if ds is unwilling to own his behaviors which have led to the cut off. I have watched him be distant though perfectly polite to me over the last year in public when there are any others than he and I and the dil present. And since she is a clinical psychologist  (DIL) and they have decided I am not rational and  apparently very grandiose ( his most often used label of me)  it seems particularly loaded.  I will keep all your points in mind.  I want the elephant exposed - be it me or he or most probably we. Regardless of outcomes ( we all know what I want in my heart if I had my choice - and ds too I think as I know his love for me is strong if twisted now), it has to be better to know and find peace in that way even if it means a total estrangement - for ds too, not only me.

I think he is going to be choosing the therapist though my therapist has offered assistance as he is connected in their part of the country ( 1500 miles from me).  I doubt ds will take up on that though, as I have asked for therapy with him for almost 3 years now and he always insisted I was crazy and he had no problems other than me, and dil is a clinical psychologist herself though she does research not therapy.
I Will ask the therapist directly about  experience and credentials and whether there has been any contact or knowledge of any of the 3 of us at the beginning of the first web session. I will not know if the person lies though I suppose, yet it would be a reportable offense if they did, so I think there would be he sitency on their part to lie. I will go into this believing my sons intentions are good, though he can be naive in an area like this he does not have experience in it and I can well understand he might cede control of those variables to his wife who would/should know more.  I think he has all along  not understood that since she has a horse in the race she may not have helped in our problems.  She has observed some and overheard much of the emotional abuse ds has spewed. Never once has he come back and apologized. I asked him last fall if dil ever has gently reminded him that no resolution is possible when he is screaming and labeling and telling me how I am and refusing to listen when I try to correct him about how I feel and think. I have never yelled or screamed back or returned his fire, though often I have cried listening and tyring to keep up with the swirling words form ds.

I am sorry for these long posts - I just need to get this out, thank you for listening and helping me. I have a lot of friends and have begun to share with a few of them what is going on. They are so loving and kind and so shocked as they have never heard anything like this and are in disbelief still because they know ds rather well through the years.  Knowing there are others like me, though I wish there were not, going through some variation of this is so helpful to know and the authentic honesty of experience and what does or does not help guides me daily now. What a gift you all are.  I think this is a huge movement of change - us coming out of the silence with our painful truths and the increasing incidence of this sort in our culture overall. Dr. Phil Louise?