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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: Pen on August 05, 2012, 09:29:05 AM

Title: Rough day
Post by: Pen on August 05, 2012, 09:29:05 AM
Because DH & I choose not to push ourselves on DS/DIL, DIL gets a happy, IL-free life & we get crumbs. Having a rough day, wish we could get what we want once in awhile...can't speak up w/o causing a major rift, but if we stay silent it's assumed we're fine with it all. Tough position.

Here's the thing: DS (rightly) wants to please DIL. DIL isn't at all interested in spending time with us & has made it clear to DS. So, DS spends his precious free time w/DIL (rightly so) and her FOO because that's what DIL wants. DS does what he can to see his own FOO, but he's not going to jeopardize his marriage for us, understandably. It's how he was raised, BTW. Kudos to us!

In my situation I do blame DIL for taking advantage of DS's love & commitment. If she could accept us, DS would be more comfortable spending time w/us. It's weird that the only time he can call or visit is when she's away.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 05, 2012, 09:49:53 AM
Terrible choice for DS to have to make and totally unnecessary! Until DIL gets that what she has asked (demanded?) of him is unloving, immature and abusive...(just getting started)...he is stuck with it...her. I'm so sorry that where his heart took him has and is hurting him so deeply....because it is. Cruelty comes in all kinds of guises. Sending love your way, Pen...rough days come...and then they do pass.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Doe on August 05, 2012, 09:52:20 AM
(((Pen)))
love from me, too.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: constantmargaret on August 05, 2012, 11:35:37 AM
 I wouldn't enjoy being married to someone who wouldn't allow me to maintain relationships with my family. Unless your DS has the patience of Job, I would think that would get old after a while.

My DD is in a similar situation, and I'm wondering how long she'll allow the person she's with to alienate her from her family. We have a family wedding coming up and she just informed me they're getting a hotel instead of staying with us or any other member of the family, and I know money was an issue so I'm not sure why they wouldn't stay with family after being offered any number of options.

But I'm learning, and I didn't ask her why.

I hope your DS finds a way to have the kind of relationships he wants with his own parents without jeopardizing his marriage, but honestly, if he can't, what kind of marriage is that? I go between feeling sorry for someone in his situation and feeling like he should stand up for himself.

I also hope you can take some comfort knowing he would spend more time with you if he felt he could. Hope you feel better.



Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Lillycache on August 05, 2012, 12:40:44 PM
I understand exactly Pen.  My son's wife made it VERY clear the last time we spoke (fought) that she has zero, absolutely ZERO interest in me or if I ever saw my son or the GKs again.  She made it clear that I am in no way cosidered her family nor am I important in her world.  It would be up to my DS to maintain a relationship with me.  That is I guess if there was ever time between his working, their family time, and the time set aside for HER FOO. So that leaves the absolute barest of crumbs for me.   I have slowly been coming around to accepting the fact that I will never have the extended family I always longed to have.  I can't really complain though because I have no interest in seeing DIL.  I don't consider her my family any longer.  So I guess I get what I deserve... huh...
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: SCW on August 05, 2012, 02:07:26 PM
I am so sorry you are having a bad day.  Those will come and they will go.  Perhaps a walk or some exercise will help?

Yes, Kudos to you and DH for raising a son who accepts and respects DIL wishes.   Shame on him for not speaking up and getting a little free time for you.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: lancaster lady on August 05, 2012, 02:09:45 PM
dear Pen ...
You have more patience than me , you would think that as long as she doesn't have to see you ,
she could at least give your Ds time to visit .
You must find it unbearable at times holding your tongue and not saying what you feel .
That's where I failed , lucky for me it turned out ok , but it could easily have gone the other way and I
would be missing my family as we speak .
It's hard to keep busy ALL the time and those thoughts creep in .
I know what I would do , with both feet ..... :o
sending hugs for those quiet times dear Pen ..<<>>
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pen on August 05, 2012, 02:18:22 PM
Did any of you expect or want your DIL to become your BFF? I certainly didn't! But I suppose I expected (I know, I know) her to not hate us so much it would cause DS to become distant. She's not my idea of a fabulous time either, but I don't hate her or manipulate situations to avoid her. I don't think we are so weird/gross that spending time w/us is abhorrent, but apparently she feels that any amount of time not doing exactly what she wants to do is not just wasted time but absolute misery. Or she thinks we're totally weird/gross. IDK, probably both. For the sake of DS, why can't she put on a brave, emotionless face like I do? Lol  :-X

There's no way to respond when we're dealing w/self-absorbed people who don't care about anyone else. So glad you WW are here on those days when I think I can't cope (& that thankfully are becoming fewer & fewer.) Love you!! I appreciate your concern & kind suggestions...yes, I'll get exercise, get involved in a project and carry on! It's not like I don't have a gazillion things to do :)
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: NewMama on August 05, 2012, 03:07:45 PM
Quote from: Pen on August 05, 2012, 02:18:22 PM
There's no way to respond when we're dealing w/self-absorbed people who don't care about anyone else.

I think that pretty much sums it up. A mature adult understands that even if your ILs are not your favourite people, you should be polite and respectful for the sake of your spouse. Unfortunately, people that are that self absorbed will never understand because they're pretty much incapable of trying to see things from another's perspective. I'm sorry you're having a rough day. I hope someday your DS stand up for himself and you, he shouldn't have to be the one doing all the compromising (which isn't really compromising, it's giving in).
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: JaneF on August 05, 2012, 06:08:23 PM
I too am sorry you are dealing with this issue...I have the exact issue myself.  It does make me angry too that someone can only think of themselves and is so selfish, just like another post said.  But some people just do not have the ability to see things from another persons point of view sadly.  It is hard to stay silent I agree, but I just try to speak to my son when I get the chance so his life is easier, but I do wish he could stand up for himself without the horrible treatment he gets if he does. Blessings to you all.   J
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Grammie on August 05, 2012, 08:56:36 PM
Sounds like we're all in a similar boat.  Gets old after a while doesn't it?  If DIL loved DS even half as much as she loves herself she would be able to see that she is hurting him with her behavior.  I often wonder how GC can grow up to be mature, loving, forgiving individuals when they are raised by people who don't have a clue!
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pen on August 06, 2012, 12:05:48 AM
Quote from: NewMama on August 05, 2012, 03:07:45 PM
.......I hope someday your DS stand up for himself and you, he shouldn't have to be the one doing all the compromising (which isn't really compromising, it's giving in).

If DS stood up for himself/us it could very well mean the end of his marriage. We wouldn't hope for such a thing. We raised him to do his best to honor his vows & DIL knows this.

IMO, this is not a problem due to DS being a wimp; this is a problem due to DIL/her FOO taking advantage of him & of us because we're a bit more honorable than they are.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Nana on August 06, 2012, 12:57:34 AM
Sorry Pen you are still hurting for this unsensitive dil who does not deserve a space in your mind or your life.  She has taken advantage of her position and of your son trying to keep peace with her.  I was there too, believe me, but I am not as good and patient as you.  I was lucky and things began to change.  I couldnt take it anymore and decided to draw my line too. 

You are having indeed a bad day...but you will be ok again.  There is much more to be written to this story.  Some good has to come out of this, you'll see. 

Love
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: FAFE on August 06, 2012, 05:54:24 AM
What is sad is that some of our AC are in for a big surprise when their children end up just like them - not caring for his/her parents, much less anyone else when they are grown.  Like it's been said before - Karma! 

Hugs to all of you who are hurting due to their AC.  I, too, have those times but I do not have it nearly as bad as some do.   

Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: NewMama on August 06, 2012, 06:07:25 AM
Pen, I didn't mean that to come across as your DS is being a wimp. I think he's doing exactly what you said - trying to make his marriage work and honor his wife. DIL and her FOO take advantage of that. What concerned me is that I've seen more than one relationship though where the person who has to do all the giving and compromising eventually gets tired of it and resentment sets in. It may make things peaceful in the short term but do damage in the long run.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: pam1 on August 06, 2012, 07:35:02 AM
Big Hugs, Pen.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 06, 2012, 08:45:56 AM
I wonder sometimes how marriage vows may differ...even when the same words are repeated. If not on the surface then perhaps on a deeper, even unconscious, level. Would the offending spouse, (not always the DIL, as we know), take as much invalidation and give as much kindness in return if the demands and the consequences of not meeting them were reversed? We all have such differing concepts of what we are required to tolerate and where to draw the line.

I am speaking here, as always, from my own experience. I made a poor choice at age 20. I knew nothing of differing values and incompatibility. I had known my "betrothed" since I was four years old! No mystery there. We had never been friends until our hormones kicked in. I didn't even notice that. My choice was based on what I knew at 20...which was zip. It took 18 years for me to learn what I didn't know. I thought if I tried harder, surely my spouse would. I thought if I gave it everything I had, it would be enough or even get better. Not workable premises in my case.

My parents couldn't help me with that and my spouse simply didn't know what I was talking about or find it of interest. I had to grow up. (I'm still working on that.) I had to move from being 20; trusting, naive and "unfinished"...to being almost 40 to realize I was throwing my life away. I had evidence all around me that it was the accepted norm. That's my excuse for taking two decades to wake up and give up. I had to leave the "tooth fairy" behind. She who promised after all of my permanent teeth appeared, that "happily ever after" was just around the corner. She further admonished that "big girls" just like little ones were to be seen and not heard.

I took the values I had learned at home and tried to apply them to an untenable situation. What I am postulating here is that all of us learn on whatever path we choose. Some paths may be easier than others but often in our youth we don't know what we're getting into. I know now that my choices couldn't help but cause my parents anguish. They wanted the best for me...of course. I choose a rocky road that eventually led, even though very slowly because I was obviously a slow learner, to where I am now which is deep joy and fulfillment. I can only hope that my parents know I finally got there in my own time frame, which wasn't theirs. 

This was meant to encourage, Pen. There is always hope. Sending love...   
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: SCW on August 06, 2012, 09:09:07 AM
Quote from: Grammie on August 05, 2012, 08:56:36 PM
If DIL loved DS even half as much as she loves herself she would be able to see that she is hurting him with her behavior.
That could be said of DS/DD/SIL/FIL/MIL/DM/DF...etc., etc.
Too many people are self absorbed and do not realize how much they hurt others.  I think this is why this website and WWU is popular and necessary. 
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 06, 2012, 09:18:52 AM
Someone, I wish I could remember who, once told me...in observing a couple..."They have so much in common. He loves her and she loves herself." It may have been meant to be funny but we all know that it isn't. I think you're right, WWU would be a nul-hypotheses if basic mutual respect was a given in our society.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: lancaster lady on August 06, 2012, 09:29:32 AM
I hope one day Pen your Ds realises that the corner he is backed into is too small and breaks free .
My own DS himself admitted that his DW wouldn't let anyone near their DD when she was born , including
himself , well hallelujah it wasn't just me after all .
So maybe they do realise their partner has got faults , there is hope after all .
One day Pen , one day .
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Grammie on August 06, 2012, 10:16:04 AM
Quote from: luise.volta on August 06, 2012, 09:18:52 AM
Someone, I wish I could remember who, once told me...in observing a couple..."They have so much in common. He loves her and she loves herself."

You hit the nail on the head with that one Luise.  I love it! 
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: elsieshaye on August 06, 2012, 12:25:00 PM
((((Pen))))  I"m sorry you're having a rough day.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 06, 2012, 01:08:16 PM
We all are, Pen. We know the feeling all too well.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pooh on August 06, 2012, 01:55:47 PM
Just catching up Pen.  I hope today finds you back in good spirits and smiling. 
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pen on August 06, 2012, 03:51:03 PM
Thanks everyone. I'm getting there :) What else can I do? I refuse to let this get to me...BTW, that quote about says it all, lol!
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Scoop on August 07, 2012, 08:50:45 AM
I agree that it's not a good marriage when one partner has to be subservient to the other.  Pen, I hope your DS realizes it before it's too late.  It took my DB 21 years and even then, XSisIL ended the marriage. 

That being said, I'm married to that kind of wienie too.  He doesn't want to make decisions, he'd rather just go along for the ride.  I've never said "no" to visiting his FOO, but I certainly don't suggest it and he doesn't bring it up either.  So I have to believe that he's not interested in a closer relationship with his FOO.  I have a feeling that, in our case, it's because he doesn't want to have to do any of the work in smoothing the relationship between us.  He could facilitate things, by "guiding" his P's (and me) to an easier relationship.  I think it's terrible that instead of standing up to his parents, he's turned his back.

ConstantMargaret wrote:
Quote from: constantmargaret on August 05, 2012, 11:35:37 AM
My DD is in a similar situation, and I'm wondering how long she'll allow the person she's with to alienate her from her family. We have a family wedding coming up and she just informed me they're getting a hotel instead of staying with us or any other member of the family, and I know money was an issue so I'm not sure why they wouldn't stay with family after being offered any number of options.

See?  This would be SUCH a good solution for us.  If we could stay at a hotel, I can guarantee you that we would visit the IL's more often.  If I could have 'smaller doses' of the IL's and some time to decompress, our visits would be more pleasant and I think our relationship would be better, and thus, we would visit MORE.   However, my MIL would take it as a MORTAL INSULT if we were to "not" stay with them.  To me, it's cutting off your nose to spite your face.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 07, 2012, 09:07:38 AM
I find it so hard when others hold their preferences (values?) up to me as the norm. It's the norm for them. When I go to Hawaii to visit DS, Kirk, I stay in a motel because I am more comfortable there. Why would they insist I be uncomfortable and call it being hospitable? I like quiet time...and solitude as well as visiting up a storm, so we do both! :-) Everyone else stays with them and they love it. They have guest room and bath for them. And, I am at choice. There's no right or wrong way (to my way of thinking) and I just wouldn't go at all if they tried to make me fit into their mold or laid a guilt trip on me when I refused. Square peg...round hole. That's OK!
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: pam1 on August 07, 2012, 09:11:15 AM
It seems like such an easy fix, doesn't it? Just stay in a hotel :)  But nope, not when you're dealing with high conflict people.  Everyone seems to go out of their way to prevent anger, but IMHO, all it does is keep the high conflict person stuck in a cycle of control that just never works for them anyway. 

Scoop, does your husband ever risk his mothers wrath?  I understand not wanting to purposely hurt someone but IMO, her control of the situation is the side that is purposely hurting others -- your wishes are out of comfort and IMO, necessity. 
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 07, 2012, 09:38:13 AM
I have a beloved friend who lives out of state and who wants me to visit them. She won't take "no" for an answer regarding their guest room. She is insulted that I will only go if I stay in a motel. So be it. I ain't a gonna' go! LOL! She gets to have her point of view and...so do I. When she comes here, she stays with friends...but not with me. Different strokes for different folks. I love her to pieces and we don't have to be a matched set. Simple...but not necessarily easy, I agree.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Scoop on August 07, 2012, 10:02:32 AM
Quote from: pam1 on August 07, 2012, 09:11:15 AM
Scoop, does your husband ever risk his mothers wrath?

Pam - no, never.  Not even as a teenager did my DH ever stand up to his mother.  On the one hand, I know he's been conditioned to never question her.  FIL would always back MIL, no matter what, when DH or SisIL would fight with her.  MIL also had some rage issues, so there was some self-preservation in there too.  On the other hand, DH doesn't judge people, he thinks "she's my mother, I love her, period".  He can't separate the 2 ideas, as in, "she's my mother, and I love her, but I hate when she does xxxx".  And he would not know how to tell her "I love you, but you have to stop doing xxx".

I know that he doesn't have an adult relationship with his parents.  They think of him as a 'kid' and he still 'goes behind their backs".   So really, I guess, now that I think about it, it's asking too much of him to be able to smooth things over between me and the IL's.  He can't even do it for himself.  And sadly, MIL has used up all of her chances with me.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 07, 2012, 10:11:29 AM
How wonderful that he picked you instead of the "familiar", Scoop. He's a lucky guy. Sending love...
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: herbalescapes on August 07, 2012, 10:47:51 AM
I always say if you add enough peanut butter, cheese and/or chocolate to anything - even a rough day - it's palatable.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pen on August 07, 2012, 11:17:13 AM
Somewhere there must be a bunch of nice, rational DILs & MILs who ended up together. We don't see them here, of course. I suppose they're all over on Luise's other site "DILs & MILs Holding Hands and Skipping Thru the Tulips" dot com, lol.   ;D
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Paca on August 07, 2012, 11:34:12 AM
Why does family have to be an or? Mine or yours and in most of these cases it's hers. HER wedding, HER family.  He had a family too that loved him just as much, it wasn't less because he was a boy.

Family shouldn't be one or another and traded, it's meant to grow.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: pam1 on August 07, 2012, 12:15:12 PM
Paca, I agree whole-heartedly with you.   Too bad it's not easy or that not everyone agrees with us!  LOL

Scoop, that's just terrible.  It's too bad our husbands can't get together and chat.  They sound so similar and it's heart breaking because I'm willing to bet your husband is a very nice guy, through and through.  It's hard to see our loved ones treated so terribly.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 07, 2012, 12:58:07 PM
Pen - I don't know where they hang our but it's not on www.MomResponds.com LOL That's how WWU got started. I got so many questions on these issues that I thought they deserved a separate site! I think those happly little campers are all over at www.PieInTheSky.com!

Seriously, I was one once. I think the story about my MIL is over in Success Stories someplace. She was a true jewel!  ;) (And I was as real "pill!"  :-[ )
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Paca on August 07, 2012, 01:09:38 PM
Pam1, why can't love just be? Seriously?
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: herbalescapes on August 07, 2012, 04:46:26 PM
It's a nice idea not to have a his and hers FOO and just become one big combined family, but I don't think it's at all practical in most cases.  I remember from hs world cultures class that in some cultures, a woman marries into her husbands's clan/tribe and pretty much cuts ties with her own FOO.  In some - I think fewer - cultures a man marries into his wife's tribe/clan and cuts ties with his own FOO.  That prevailing philosophy would solve a lot of the problems we see here, but what happens when you have kids of only one gender and it's not the gender that stays with you?  No system is perfect. 

Holidays and birthdays are big points where his vs hers FOO often is evident.  But how do you include both sides of the family when there are multiple AC with spouses and children and ILs of their own plus geographical distances to overcome?  Can I expect my sister's husband's sibling's ILs to  to travel hundreds of miles to spend Christmas at my husband's brother's wife's sister's house so we don't have to split up the holiday?  Who has a house big enough?  For just my dh, me, our kids, our parents, our sibs, their spouses and kids, that's over 30 people and that doesn't include my nieces/nephews other grandparents nor any of my own or my dh's cousins, aunts, uncles.  Where do you want to draw the line of the one big happy family? 

I have yet to find any large scale, objective study that shows it's usually Her family and not his that takes precedence.  Many AD are estranged from their familes; just look at the AC page on this website. 
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 07, 2012, 05:18:02 PM
H - Thought provoking post. Thanks. One basic problem is that we're human. Sending love...
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Begonia on August 07, 2012, 05:49:31 PM
Pen:  Sending caring and good thoughts your way.  I have a similar situation with DS.  I do think my DIL is a good person but she has these needy and dysfunctional parents who seem to control both DS and DIL.  It is a big mess.  I do regret not seeing my GK and being part of their lives on a weekly basis, but it is what it is, sad to say.  Wishing you a wonderful week to balance things out. 
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Barbie on August 08, 2012, 06:15:12 AM
Dear Pen,

I understand your anguish and I think days like these are inevitable as we love our DSs very much and want them to be happy. Sometimes it's easier when we don't see our DS, he's a wonderful, loving husband and father (he had a good example) and we are extremely proud of him, we wish DIL would show some appreciation for all he does for her rather than take advantage of his good nature, instead, she goes on about her business as usual knowing that he's suffering, and now we are seeing that our 4 yr. old GD is starting to treat DS just like her mother does.  Tough to watch!

Hang in there, Pen.   (((Hugs)))
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Lillycache on August 08, 2012, 07:10:47 AM
Quote from: Paca on August 07, 2012, 11:34:12 AM
Why does family have to be an or? Mine or yours and in most of these cases it's hers. HER wedding, HER family.  He had a family too that loved him just as much, it wasn't less because he was a boy.

Family shouldn't be one or another and traded, it's meant to grow.

Sometimes I sit quietly here at work and listen to the young women talk about their little boys, and how much they love them, and all the neat things little boys do and how lucky they are to have sons..... AND I sit quietly...  I bite my tongue until it bleeds.  I want to tell them to enjoy their little guys NOW... because depending on who they marry, you may not be in the picture.   I told my DIL that, and of course she said that SHE would know exactly how to be the perfect MIL and that HER DIL would not treat her the way she treats me because I am deserving of such treatment.    You just have to sit back and laugh at the naivete.   
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: pam1 on August 08, 2012, 08:02:45 AM
Quote from: Paca on August 07, 2012, 01:09:38 PM
Pam1, why can't love just be? Seriously?

I wish I knew :(  I think it's a combination of what Herbal just posted and the personalities involved, is my best guess.  I understand distinctly what Herbal is saying, it applies very much to DHs FOO.  However, I get along with my DDs fathers FOO and always had a good relationship with them and while they are long distance and we don't celebrate holidays very often (even when her father and I were still together) we just plain didn't have these problems.  They did not take offense if we didn't come home on Christmas, they would send a card pretty much saying that they hope we are having a great Christmas and send some treats.  DHs FOO would and has sent us the "nasty grams" that we are horrible people and making MIL miserable for missing Christmas, even though we spent Christmas Eve with her.  While DDs fathers FOO wouldn't even SEE us. 

I think with the personalities in DHs FOO, this kind of simple, pure love and hoping for the best for everyone is just simply not possible.  They aren't that kind of people.  I still have trouble accepting it though.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pooh on August 08, 2012, 10:01:37 AM
I think it does boil down to personalities.  We never demanded holidays, birthdays, special occasions, etc.  They were extended the offers anytime our family had anything, but no hard feelings if they couldn't make it, and no guilt trips.  And then when we simply offered an invitation to get together whenever was convenient for them, even if that was a month before or month after, it still didn't work for them.  There was no day in 365 days that worked for them.

I also still think it is what people say versus what people do.  When those of us that don't demand or guilt, ask and get the response of "Sorry, we are so busy" and say, "Ok, whenever works for you" but then see them go to the other FOO 10 times a month, then it becomes an excuse and isn't hard to figure out that they just don't want to attend anything on your side.  That's their right, but doesn't make the hurt any less.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Begonia on August 08, 2012, 11:14:22 AM
Pooh:  Your post is so enlightening.  You said, There was no day in 365 days that worked for them.
If that isn't the truth!!  You are so right...that is exactly how it is for my DS and DIL. 
And then you say: That's their right, but doesn't make the hurt any less.
So true again!  I posted in another thread that I am working on this right now.  And just like I don't watch scary or violent movies, or train wrecks,I just don't watch anymore to see where DS and family are.  What a relief. 
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Lillycache on August 08, 2012, 11:59:54 AM
What would happen if we told them that we were hurt and offended by their actions?   Just asking...  could it get worse?  At least they would know that it was NOT alright with us.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pooh on August 08, 2012, 01:55:28 PM
It could get worse, it could get better or it could just stay the same.

The question is:  What would happen if you told yourself that you can love them but not love their decisions and then went an had a manicure?
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Barbie on August 08, 2012, 03:33:48 PM
Pooh is absolutely right, that's a chance you have to be willing to take. It had gotten so bad for us that I figured it couln't get any worse, DS and I were very close so I had no problem telling him how we felt.

It has gotten better for us in the past year or so but nowhere near what it used to be before DIL came into the picture and I believe that's because our DS truly is a wonderful guy with a heart of gold and he's torn between his DW and his FOO, trying to do the best he can to make everybody happy. We have also we have lowered our expectations.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Monroe on August 08, 2012, 03:50:20 PM
Scoop -- you said :

"I have a feeling that, in our case, it's because he doesn't want to have to do any of the work in smoothing the relationship between us.  He could facilitate things, by "guiding" his P's (and me) to an easier relationship.  I think it's terrible that instead of standing up to his parents, he's turned his back."

Why is it your husband's job to smooth the relationship between you and your ILs?  Many MILs on this board go to great lengths to avoid putting the son/husband in the middle.  They back off, defer, let go. . . to the point of, like Pen, hardly seeing their son.  With Pen, everything has to be on the DIL's terms. 

I'm not saying you are like Pen's DIL, but why is it your husband's job to smooth the relationship?  Don't you and your MIL both wear Big Girl Panties?   Shouldn't the two of you resolve things - not put your DH in the middle? 

I basically have no relationship with my DIL.  But that's between her and me.  It is not my son's job to mediate, be go-between, etc.  Anything we need to work out needs to be worked out between the two of us, as adults.  I see nothing to be gained by putting my son/her husband in the middle. 
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Monroe on August 08, 2012, 03:56:08 PM
Quote from: Lillycache on August 08, 2012, 07:10:47 AM

Sometimes I sit quietly here at work and listen to the young women talk about their little boys, and how much they love them, and all the neat things little boys do and how lucky they are to have sons..... AND I sit quietly...  I bite my tongue until it bleeds.  I want to tell them to enjoy their little guys NOW... because depending on who they marry, you may not be in the picture.   

Lilly - I am so right there with you.  I have such cherished memories of that little boy who was so firmly connected to us.   He simply had the luck to marry a woman who wanted nothing to do with us.  We say nothing.  He will never know the depth of our pain and loss.  Until he walks a mile in our shoes.   
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: NewMama on August 08, 2012, 04:12:17 PM
I think it is part of the son's job to help with the relationships between MIL and DIL. DH grew up with his mother, and knows her better than I do. He also has been in a relationship with me for 10 years, and knows me better than she does. And quite frankly, some of the things he does or doesn't do have contributed to the downturn in my relationship with her. She's a lot quicker to forgive something that came out of his mouth than if the exact same statement came out of my mouth.

My own mother has commented that certain things about weddings, babies, family life etc that she has said to me she could never say to my SisIL - and she loves my SisIL. But she's not her mother, doesn't have a lifelong history with her or that bond, so she's slightly more guarded with what she says. My brother was notoriously bad for keeping my mother out of the loop during their wedding plans, and mom put the blame squarely where it belonged - with my brother. She could've railed against SisIL for that, but my brother's an adult and should've be keeping her informed.

If it were reversed, ie my DH had an issue with my mom, no one would let me off the hook for not trying to smooth things over because it's my job as the wife.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Monroe on August 08, 2012, 05:10:21 PM
Quote from: NewMama on August 08, 2012, 04:12:17 PM
I think it is part of the son's job to help with the relationships between MIL and DIL.

So, if it is part of son's job to help with relationship between MIL and DIL, does that mean MIL can ask son for the help with problems with DIL?   Or can only DIL ask for help from son on problems with MIL?   

I have a hard time imagining that Pen's DIL would take it well if Pen asked her son for help in working out problems between DIL and Pen and Pen's husband. 
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: NewMama on August 08, 2012, 05:22:08 PM
She might not take it well. But that doesn't mean a MIL asking her son to help with a situation with DIL is wrong or unreasonable. I never said it was a one way street. I said I think it's his job to help when things aren't going well - no matter who has the issue. My MIL was the first one who went to DH with something she had an issue with - my family being invited to DS's first birthday party. Was I happy about that? No. But she had her issue, and brought it to DH's attention. DH and I talked, and came to an agreement, that it was unreasonable. He talked that over with his mom. She came anyways even though my family was there. If I had talked to her, it almost certainly wouldn't have ended that way.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Monroe on August 08, 2012, 05:56:31 PM
Quote from: NewMama on August 08, 2012, 05:22:08 PM
She might not take it well. But that doesn't mean a MIL asking her son to help with a situation with DIL is wrong or unreasonable. I never said it was a one way street. I said I think it's his job to help when things aren't going well - no matter who has the issue. My MIL was the first one who went to DH with something she had an issue with - my family being invited to DS's first birthday party. Was I happy about that? No. But she had her issue, and brought it to DH's attention. DH and I talked, and came to an agreement, that it was unreasonable. He talked that over with his mom. She came anyways even though my family was there. If I had talked to her, it almost certainly wouldn't have ended that way.

NewMama - you sound fair and consistent, in that you see it as a two-way street.  Good for you.  I would submit, however, that your MIL's issue was not solely with YOU, but also with your husband, since it was a complaint by her as to who should come to the birthday party.   Since you and your DH were both holding the party for your baby, I think your MIL's issue was with the BOTH of you, not just your husband.  What about if the issue is strictly with you?  Is it still OK for her to work through her son, or should she work directly with you?  Curious.

By the way, if her issue was that SHE wanted to come to the baby's party, but didn't want your family to?   I suspect ALL the MILS on this board would support you and your husband on that one!  ;)   Highly unreasonable for her to want to cut your family out.  Should never have been an issue at all.   
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Scoop on August 08, 2012, 06:17:10 PM
Quote from: Monroe on August 08, 2012, 03:50:20 PM
Why is it your husband's job to smooth the relationship between you and your ILs?

Monroe,

To me, the relationship between my MIL and I is a minefield, and DH has the map.

My DH knows and loves BOTH of us.  He knows our hot buttons, he knows our preferences, and theoretically he should WANT us to get along.  It's also in his best interests for us to get along, his life would be MUCH happier.  He wouldn't have to listen to MIL cry that she doesn't see us enough, and I would be much more willing to go see them.

Can you imagine if he had told his M, in the way that he knew she would receive, the things that would be hurtful to me?  So that she could stop doing them?  And maybe, if she could see it from my point of view, she could apologize?

Can you imagine if he had told me some of his P's peculiarities, so I could 'honour' MIL in a way she would appreciate?

For example, my DH and I met in a funny way, such that I joked that he was my "stalker".  It was funny at first, but as we got more serious, he told me that he didn't like it.  So I asked my family to please stop refering to him like that.  And they did.  Period.  I'm sure you can imagine how something like that could go south if left to fester.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: NewMama on August 08, 2012, 06:22:40 PM
Her issue was that she didn't want to share DS's birthday with my FOO. She wanted her own separate party before the one I had planned. I hear what you're saying about her issue being with both of us, however she sees me as the gatekeeper/final decision maker of our family. DH and I both work, share parenting responsibilities, household chores etc. I see us as equals, where she thinks I dictate to DH. We always run family plans by each other to ensure no conflicting events/visits. Both of our parents are divorced, so it can be hard to keep things straight.

I think in this particular situation the issue truly was with me. I made my choice not bring my problems with MIL to DH. I sincerely hope that when my son is older and able to converse with her this'll get better. I hope that when she sees the kid really does love her, the green eyed monster will be put to rest. It's bad at the moment - not only does she not want to share events with my FOO, she no longer wants me present (in my own home) for visits. Just DH and DS. I made the choice to suck it up and be polite regardless, but if it continues for a long time that may change. And if I offend her in some way, I don't find it at all strange for her to speak to DH about it. That's her choice.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Monroe on August 08, 2012, 06:58:46 PM
Quote from: NewMama on August 08, 2012, 06:22:40 PM
Her issue was that she didn't want to share DS's birthday with my FOO. She wanted her own separate party before the one I had planned. I hear what you're saying about her issue being with both of us, however she sees me as the gatekeeper/final decision maker of our family. DH and I both work, share parenting responsibilities, household chores etc. I see us as equals, where she thinks I dictate to DH. We always run family plans by each other to ensure no conflicting events/visits. Both of our parents are divorced, so it can be hard to keep things straight.

I think in this particular situation the issue truly was with me. I made my choice not bring my problems with MIL to DH. I sincerely hope that when my son is older and able to converse with her this'll get better. I hope that when she sees the kid really does love her, the green eyed monster will be put to rest. It's bad at the moment - not only does she not want to share events with my FOO, she no longer wants me present (in my own home) for visits. Just DH and DS. I made the choice to suck it up and be polite regardless, but if it continues for a long time that may change. And if I offend her in some way, I don't find it at all strange for her to speak to DH about it. That's her choice.

I guess I wouldn't want to deal directly with a woman like that either, whether she be a DIL or a MIL.  You have my sympathies -- with both sets of grandparents divorced, frankly they have to all suck it up and attend the same events - It would be ridiculous if you had to put on four different events - one for each set of grandparents so they don't have to deal with each other.  Good grief!   ???
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pen on August 08, 2012, 10:18:35 PM
My problem is that DIL does not like us & chooses not to spend time w/us. There isn't anything we can do about it. She & DS have no idea how much our family has been impacted by this; seems simple enough to just go on w/o her, but it affects a lot of the things we do. It's sad & frustrating, and I find myself feeling resentful.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Grammie on August 09, 2012, 04:07:55 AM
Quote from: NewMama on August 08, 2012, 06:22:40 PM
Her issue was that she didn't want to share DS's birthday with my FOO. She wanted her own separate party before the one I had planned.

New Mama,  My question is why did MIL want her own party?  In my case my DS and DIL held a party for a 2 year old and invited her FOO and lots of friends, 30+.  At the party they made the decision that gifts would not be opened.  Apparently I was expected to leave my gift there for them to open later in private.  I took issue with that and feel that I should have been offered an opportunity to be there when my gift was opened.  I did not see that as unreasonable since her FOO was still there when we left and at least some of them were there when gifts were opened. 

My problem with DS is that he seems to feel that giving us the silent treatment is the way to go.  He has never done anything like that before but DIL has with her FOO.  We did try to talk to him a couple of times but EVERYTHING  we say gets carried back to DIL, twisted and then used against us as further evidence of how awful we are.  Our concerns are not used in a positive way to allow for a better relationship.  I truly believe that DIL is evil and set out to destroy our family and change DS into a puppet which she has effectively done.       
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Lillycache on August 09, 2012, 04:41:40 AM
New Mama...  Your MIL doesn't know how lucky she is to be included in the "Grown-up" party.   My GKs birthdays are very close together and are celebrate on the same day.  DS and DIL throw a big party for all the relatives... this includes her FOO... my son's bio-dad and his wife... but NOT me.    I got invited to the "kids" party, which means watching my GKs play with all their friends from a distance.   When I went to both of them to ask why I couldn't go to the grown up party, WWIII erupted.  I guess I should have been happy with being thrown that crumb, because now I am not invited to anything.   It wouldn't have mattered if I went to my son alone.  DIL calls the shots and he goes along to get along.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: NewMama on August 09, 2012, 04:42:28 AM
She doesn't like to share her time with DS with anyone else. Lately even me (and he's only 15 months old). It was a small party - my DM, DF & SM, my brother and SisIL (DS's only uncle and aunt), and one family friend. 10 adults including us, MIL and her BF. There was no restriction on when gifts were being opened, although MIL and BF chose to leave before we got to anyone's gift. Everyone else stayed. We offered her a few alternatives to having her own separate party if she wanted some quieter time with DS, one of which was showing up earlier to the party. That's the one she took us up on, and stayed until shortly after my FOO started to arrive. When they said they were leaving, I mentioned that we hadn't gotten to gifts yet, and they said they just wanted to be on their way. 

As I mentioned before - I don't think it's unreasonable for a MIL or DIL to take their concerns to DH. When she brought that issue to DH, he went back to her after we talked and probably presented the options to her in a much better way than I would've - because she's his mom and they've been dealing with each other for 30+ years. What happens after that is where things get dicey - if you have a DIL like Pen's, nothing you do is probably going to go over well and that's not Pen's fault. That's DIL's personality unfortunately. Grammie, if you brought your concerns to your DS in an attempt to better things and that's how they reacted, that's on them. It doesn't mean your concerns weren't valid, or you were wrong in voicing them. I understand the reservation about doing that, and I've seen it said repeatedly that the MIL has more to lose in that kind of situation. 
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Grammie on August 09, 2012, 04:54:24 AM
Quote from: Scoop on August 08, 2012, 06:17:10 PM
Quote from: Monroe on August 08, 2012, 03:50:20 PM
Why is it your husband's job to smooth the relationship between you and your ILs?

Can you imagine if he had told his M, in the way that he knew she would receive, the things that would be hurtful to me?  So that she could stop doing them?  And maybe, if she could see it from my point of view, she could apologize?



Scoop,  Why demand an apology?  Everyone sees things in different ways.  Perhaps MIL feels that she has been done an injustice and believes that you owe her an apology!  I don't know the details of your situation so please don't be offended.  I'm just relating to your comment with my situation in mind.  I sent an email which DS and DIL took offense with.  I had not intended it the way it was taken.  I had addressed it to DS and sent it to his private email.  He shared it with DIL.  I apologized for sending it in the exact same manner.  I sent it to him at his private email address.  He refused to accept my apology so I apologized again in person and he still refused to accept it.  So what is it that they want?  I'm now getting the silent treatment.  I'm guessing that DIL believes that I should come to her and apologize for the email and everything else that has offended her.   But why not just let it go and move on?  Most people don't want to sit there and be subjected to criticism and be forced to fess up and apologize.  They likely will not agree with the way you see things and would argue the point.  That happened with us.  DS came to us with a list of petty stuff that upset his wife.  We tried to reason with him and explain our point of view.  It was interpreted as us accusing his wife of lying and not being considerate of her feelings.  Seriously, she was upset because I left clothes in the dryer when they lived with us for 3 months.  How ridiculous!!!  I am not demanding an apology but any person in their right mind would agree that DH and I have been treated horribly by DS and DIL.  You see before DS and DIL met she believed that her parents were interfering in her life and she gave them the silent treatment for 13 months.  Her parents were so distraught that they went to her and apologized for all of their sins and begged forgiveness.  I believe that is what she is demanding that we do but since no one will speak to us then it's only a guess.  Her mother warned me that if I crossed her she would do the same thing to me and I'd never see my GC.  Nobody in her family will speak to us now either.  I love my GC but I don't take kindly to being manipulated. YS is afraid to say anything to his DB because he's afraid that he will be cut off too.  After a while you just give up!  You don't know what their problem is or what they want.  The stress of dealing with their issues and drama is greater than the stress of not seeing DS and GC.  You kind of pretend they don't exist and move on.  Hopefully DS will get so sick of DIL's paranoia and demands that he'll come to his senses but I'm not holding my breath waiting for that to happen.   
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: DivaGirlDIL on August 09, 2012, 05:58:17 AM
Quote from: Monroe on August 08, 2012, 05:10:21 PM
Quote from: NewMama on August 08, 2012, 04:12:17 PM
I think it is part of the son's job to help with the relationships between MIL and DIL.

So, if it is part of son's job to help with relationship between MIL and DIL, does that mean MIL can ask son for the help with problems with DIL?   Or can only DIL ask for help from son on problems with MIL?   

I have a hard time imagining that Pen's DIL would take it well if Pen asked her son for help in working out problems between DIL and Pen and Pen's husband.

My MIL has talk to DH about problems between her and I.  We don't get along I went in trying but she never wanted to get to know me.  My DH is a doctor from the beginning she called me a gold digger.  I never finished college and was a childcare worker when we meet so to her I was a loser who needed a rich man.  Even though I lived on my own paying my own way.  Not the best apartment but it was mine.  So now I say hi, goodbye and speak when spoken too.  She wants me to talk to her ask how her day is going Ect. When she confronted dh he simply told her you burned the bridge and she is never rude to you.  she wasn't happy and I wasn't mad about her talking to dh. 

Newmama Your a better person then me I wouldn't have given any oppition.  It's your party not hers no one should ever restrict or demand someone be invited.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: pam1 on August 09, 2012, 01:11:09 PM
IMO, there is risks about voicing your feelings to anyone.  I do think that it is a little unrealistic to expect spouses not to talk to each other about what is said, especially when the other spouse is discussed.  And, I believe this is true in any relationship, not just the in law dynamics.  If my best friend from childhood came to me about something my DH is doing that upsets her, well...let's just say she better be able to articulate it very well and as well, not try to paint my DH as "evil" or anything like that.  That is the quickest way to shut any spouse down. 

In my experience, my MIL would not talk to me but would give DH an earful about me.  I never got a fair shake or allowed to voice my feelings/opinions.  She went to DH to have him reprimand and change me.  (Seriously, staying for a visit of at least 6 hours was insulting to her because I did not stay longer, so that meant I didn't love her!)  And DH had severe problems with MILs lack of awareness to her own contributions of the problems, which is a huge turn off in any conversation concerning conflict. 

With all that said, I think it is a lot more likely that the primary connection will understand where the other is coming from.  DH is a lot better able to understand MIL than I am.  And vs. versa.  It's not ideal but it's a tool that should be useful, however, when the DH/DS doesn't want to do it or is incapable, it is one less useful tool in reconciliation.  Just my take.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pooh on August 10, 2012, 06:23:37 AM
I agree.  The realistic side in me also says that the reality is exactly what we are seeing here on these posts.  The very sweet DILS here that are having problems with their MILs are the ones that are compromising, don't want to cut them off and willing to keep an open mind and try.  The very sweet MILs here that are having problems with their DILs are the ones that are compromising, don't want to cut them off and willing to keep an open mind and try.

I think it just still boils down to who you are dealing with.  If my FDIL came to me with an issue about my DH, I would listen and try to play mediator between them and she would do the same for me if it was YS.  If I tried to go to OS with my issues with DIL, two things would happen.  One, OS would put his own spin on it and not relate in a good way what I was trying to say and two, DIL would blow a gasket just simply because I even dared to approach OS with anything, but yet if I tried to approach her directly, she would still blow a gasket because she's not a compromising person.

I think you have to judge who you are dealing with how receptive they would be to whatever approach you take to have any success.  I know I could do it with FDIL, but couldn't do it with DIL. 
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: artlady on August 16, 2012, 08:02:41 AM
Pen I am in the same situation but reversed as it is DD and SIl. I've not been on here for a long time , just been having too many low days and can't even read other's situation as if depresses me more . I do hope yours gets better and I'll check from time to time in hopes of it doing so then maybe i'll feel hopeful.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 16, 2012, 10:01:32 AM
AL - I've missed you! Read the success stories, maybe. We have them here. Sending love...
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pooh on August 16, 2012, 12:19:26 PM
I've missed you too AL and I also hate that we have so many hurt for no reason, but it helps me to even read the sad ones because I know I'm not alone and many times when I write a post for someone else, my brain goes "blam", you should do that to.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: artlady on August 16, 2012, 12:32:38 PM
Right now and of late I'm so emotinally drained I can't help anyone not even myself. This to will pass but right now I'm going day by day. Not normal for me as I'm always upbeat even when I'm hurting but I just can't seem to get my "groove" back right now., i think it is just battle fatigue . thanks
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Pooh on August 16, 2012, 12:48:17 PM
I just re-read what I wrote, and I didn't mean "YOU" should do that too...I meant I'm writing things that make me realize that "I" should be trying that too.  What a day!

Well you know we are here, and thinking about you.  Do something you enjoy to get yourself out of the rut.  I find when I don't want to do something, if I can just make myself get started, I end up enjoying it.  Find something you love and do it!
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Doe on August 16, 2012, 01:07:55 PM
Hey AL,

I was just wondering about you the other day and noticed you hadn't posted for a while.  Hang in there.  We're still here for you.
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: luise.volta on August 16, 2012, 02:40:51 PM
AL - I don't remember about your physical stamina. For me, at age 85, the only way I am able to function and move through the depression I feel as I slowly lose my husband (it's been 12 years)...is to exercise hard for two hours a day. It's worth it to me. When I am down, life has no flavor and it also seems to have no purpose. Just know that you have people here who understand and care. Always sending love, AL, always...
Title: Re: Rough day
Post by: Kate on September 05, 2012, 04:26:05 PM
I think there are times when it is appropriate for a son to step in when their mother and wife cannot get on.  After being very welcoming when we first met, my (now deceased) MIL was very hostile to me once we became engaged and tried to start an outright war once we were married.  She had done this to his SIL, and SIL became openly hostile in return.  The situation became so toxic that it later broke up the marriage. 

Her problem with me was that I wasn't the right religion, was divorced and had two kids.  DH knew he couldn't let it go on.  He sat both his parents down and told them that he loved them but that he wouldn't have his wife treated this way, that here was an opportunity to welcome his wife as a new daughter, that he had lots of love to give and would not be forced to choose between his parents and his wife.  While it didn't solve the problem entirely, it did limit the nasty remarks somewhat.  If we were visiting and it became too much, I didn't engage with her, I went for a walk.  I got very used to giving a big smile and saying 'I'm going to go for a walk now'.  They probably thought I was some weird fitness freak, but to me it was better than getting caught up in the poison. 

I always wondered how this nasty woman managed to raise two really lovely sons.  Fortunately hubby had some gorgeous aunts to whom he was very close.  They made very wonderful MIL substitutes until the last passed away a couple of years ago.  We saw a lot more of them than we did his parents.  We still miss them.