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Problem Solving => Daughter in Laws and/or Son in Laws => Topic started by: cremebrulee on December 21, 2009, 05:15:58 PM

Title: Observations
Post by: cremebrulee on December 21, 2009, 05:15:58 PM
My last two visits to see them, I became less intimidated by my DIL and more tuned into observe...I used to get so nervous around her...afraid I'd do or say something that would flick her off...

Here are some observations...

When I would go to visitââ,¬Â¦the first day, sheââ,¬â,,¢d be nice, but as the days progressed, sheââ,¬â,,¢d become more and more withdrawn.

Whenever we went anywhere, well, let me put it this wayââ,¬Â¦whenever youââ,¬â,,¢re walking with a guest or another coupleââ,¬Â¦what do you do?  You walk and talk togetherââ,¬Â¦right?  Well, every time we would go outââ,¬Â¦sheââ,¬â,,¢d grab him by the arm and pull him way ahead of meââ,¬Â¦I mean way aheadââ,¬Â¦didnââ,¬â,,¢t really bother me, as I became used to her manipulative intent to let me know that I wasnââ,¬â,,¢t welcome.  It seemed my son was infatuated with this attention she was giving him, so he didnââ,¬â,,¢t take noticeââ,¬Â¦but she was that intimidated by me, that she had to grab him and walk ahead of me, me always trailing in the rear.  I found it hard to keep up as I have two knee replacements.

When weââ,¬â,,¢d go back to the house, sheââ,¬â,,¢d snuggle up close to him on the sofa...and oh, by the way, she never asked what anyone wanted to watch, (and to be polite, you would say, whatever you want to watch, but she never asked) it was always, a click and you had to watch what she wanted.  So, sheââ,¬â,,¢d snuggle up close to him on the sofa, and whisper to himââ,¬Â¦never including me in conversation, simply whispering to him???ââ,¬Â¦and it was the same in the carââ,¬Â¦sheââ,¬â,,¢d play this childish little whispering game.

Once, I was taking my GD back to herââ,¬Â¦when Iââ,¬â,,¢d watch her on weekends, back then, my DIL workedââ,¬Â¦probably b/c everyone else up here worked, and sheââ,¬â,,¢d have been embarrassed not toââ,¬Â¦anyway, I figured she worked all day, so Iââ,¬â,,¢d take my GD and drop her back home, so my DIL could go home and changeââ,¬Â¦well, once, my GD was carrying her blankie when she got out of the carââ,¬Â¦she saw her mommy come to the door and she started to run and fell down, she didnââ,¬â,,¢t cry, or wasnââ,¬â,,¢t hurt, and my DIL became enraged, and bent down and picked her up so roughly, like it was my fault that her daughter fellââ,¬Â¦
Man, does she have a short fuse?

When they came back home to live for that yearââ,¬Â¦and I was watching my GDââ,¬Â¦I showed my DIL all the things I got for my GD, including a training pottyââ,¬Â¦she never said a word.  So the first time my GD went potty, we made a huge party out of itââ,¬Â¦and I called her daddy and we told my foster mom, and yelled and screamed, hip hip hoorayed when I took her back to her mommieââ,¬Â¦and told her, I saw my GD get really sad, as if she knew my DIL was going to get angryââ,¬Â¦and boy did she get angryââ,¬Â¦and the next day my son bought my GD, he told me to never potty train her againââ,¬Â¦but my DIL didnââ,¬â,,¢t say a word to me about it?????  I really think, my DIL hates it when other people are happyââ,¬Â¦I mean it, as I said before, I think a lot of times sheââ,¬â,,¢s angry and doesnââ,¬â,,¢t even know why.

My DIL was working, so my son bought over my GD for her birthday.  I had gotten her a small cake, and some presents, and the 3 of us had birthday cake.

Much later, years later, it was mentioned, like remember the timeââ,¬Â¦and my DIL said real angryââ,¬Â¦Ã¢â,¬Å"I didnââ,¬â,,¢t know you had a birthday cake for her????ââ,¬Â  Itââ,¬â,,¢s like she has to approve if you can have a good time or not and she hates it when you doââ,¬Â¦

My last visit, we were on the way back to the Airport...we stopped to purchase something, and while my son was talking with the salesperson, I tried talking to her, you know, general chit chat...well, she gives me this mean look and walks away, to the front t of the store, and sits there like she's the victim...she gets this sad puppy dog look on her face????  But when I got out of the car, I said, thanks for everything, and she turns around so sweet in front of my son and say..."My Pleasure.!"  Why can't she be like that all the time...?  Do youknow I don't even know my son any more, what he likes...and he probably feels so confused, like if he calls me then he's being disloyal to her?

Not only allowing, but love is encouraging your spouce to go ahead and have a good time, to succeed, even if that means, leaving us behind...once in a while...that would and did always make me happy. 

Some folks fight over their children i the same way...I used to ask my son...where do you want to be this holiday season...andif he said, with his dad, sure it hurt a little, but I wanted him to be happy...why fight, and demand that he be with me, if he didn't want to be...I think it took a lot of pressure off of him...the same with spouces...it's they're life to...why make someone you say you love, live your idea of what they're life and marriage should be?
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: 2chickiebaby on December 21, 2009, 05:26:22 PM
oh, Lord, it's so sad!!  Why can't people just be good to others?  Your DIL is a mean and angry person and can't stand the attention you might get. 

People will regret how they've been, take it to the bank.  If they are human, they will regret their actions. 
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: cremebrulee on December 21, 2009, 05:37:16 PM
yes, I know, again...her behavior isn't normal...you'd think she'd be happy for anything anyone else gave to her daughter, but she is very envious...

Like, what mother do you know, would open a package that the grandparents sent to her daughter, and not only throw them away, but deprive the little girl the joy of not only getting a package in the mail, but also, opening it?  How selfish is that?

I really fear, my DIL is narcissistic? 

I took out a loan before I went down to visit them the last time, wanted to wine and dine them...take them out, and we went to these fast food places, and sat around the rest of the time, didn't go anywhere.  Usually when I go down she works, but she didn't so we had to do what she wanted to do...and I was paying for the resturants, but nope, we had to go to where she wanted to go.  I think, and I'm just guessing, that perhaps she wanted to make my visit so miserable, that I'd never come back...she is very self indulgent.
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: 2chickiebaby on December 21, 2009, 05:40:37 PM
Creme, She's a sad lady who will live in misery her whole life.  So ridiculous!
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: isitme? on December 22, 2009, 06:40:52 AM
Creme, I think you're right and your DIL has some kind of narcissitic or other kind of personality disorder.  I've been reading up on these things a lot and while it helps, I understand the frustration because you often feel like there's nothing you can you.

I think your DIL's behavior is terrible.  Whatever insecurities, whatever perceived issues she may have with you, she should not be acting this way.  It's NOT you. 

Does it help to have insight into a person's behavior like this - I mean, in terms of accepting it and trying to move past the hurt and anger?  I feel like it helps a little with my FMIL directly - but then I find myself feeling angry and hurt that BF doesn't see it the same way - or at least won't acknowledge it.  But of course he doesn't, it's his own mother and I understand that.  And I also know it's not my place to say "Hey, I think your mother has a personality disorder."  Counseling is hopefully going to help us this way... But I wanted to ask,  do you feel that way with your son?  Somehow betrayed because he won't acknowledge the personality disorder that his wife has and it's consequent effect on you and the rest of his family (including his own child).  Maybe he does, but doesn't want to burden you with the details and like some of you ladies with difficult DILs sometimes suggest,  maybe he feels trapped and like he has to deal with this on his own?  I'm just thinking in general about the people who are closest to these unhealthy personalities:  it's not us, it's the people we love who bear the brunt...and we deal with the fallout.  How can we help them?  And is the help/support I would give my BF as his partner so different than the help/support you, Creme, would give to your son as his mother?  As part of my reading on personality disorders, I did some reading on Stockholm syndrome... and one article I read seems to suggest that all we can do is offer our love unconditionally...
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: Invisible on December 22, 2009, 08:23:20 AM
There are no misunderstandings between my DIL and myself. I know exactly how much she hates me. After my son died she wrote me several letters clearly stating and reasserting her disgust.  The only way I could accommodate her is if I stop breathing immediately and give her everything I own.
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: cremebrulee on December 22, 2009, 08:36:53 AM
Quoteisitme?
Creme, I think you're right and your DIL has some kind of narcissitic or other kind of personality disorder.  I've been reading up on these things a lot and while it helps, I understand the frustration because you often feel like there's nothing you can you.

Yes, your right, there is nothing anyone can do...and yes, I've been reading up on this for years...my maternal mother is narcissitic...it's such a shame...the older she becomes, the less functional she is...isitme, I cannot tell you how greatful I am for my foster family...you have no idea...and maybe the lesson is...I could be very much like my DIL...if it hadn't been for them?  I don't hate her, or dislike her...I hate her behavior...there were times, when she could be so much fun...

QuoteI think your DIL's behavior is terrible.  Whatever insecurities, whatever perceived issues she may have with you, she should not be acting this way.  It's NOT you




How can we help them? 

We can't, they muyst help themselves...they feel they  have no problems...and make excuses for the problem...even if that means everyone else is wrong....being right at all cost to save his marriage and quit frankly, I would rather have it this way, then see them break up...not over me...

And is the help/support I would give my BF as his partner so different than the help/support you, Creme, would give to your son as his mother?  As part of my reading on personality disorders, I did some reading on Stockholm syndrome... and one article I read seems to suggest that all we can do is offer our love unconditionally...
I would make certain, before you marry that you two have had extensive counseling...b/c there has to be repercussions from being raised like this...be observant...watch how he talks to you, does he have respect for himself, b/c if he doesn, he will have respect for you...but you want to make certain, he is not the kind of man who willl change drastically once your married...hugs, Creme
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: cremebrulee on December 22, 2009, 08:39:26 AM
Quote from: Invisible on December 22, 2009, 08:23:20 AM
There are no misunderstandings between my DIL and myself. I know exactly how much she hates me. After my son died she wrote me several letters clearly stating and reasserting her disgust.  The only way I could accommodate her is if I stop breathing immediately and give her everything I own.

OMG, I just cannot fathom anyone harboring that much contempt and hate...to actually write you letters confirming her dislike for you?  Why?  What does she get out of that..?  She really needs help...and I'm so so sorry, she did this...after loosing your son, you'd think she'd have some sense of compassion...hate really distroys a person...and so many other lives...she will be held accountable someday if she doesn't change....I'm so sorry...
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: isitme? on December 22, 2009, 09:09:54 AM
Invisible.. it does sound horrible.  No matter what relationship you may have had with her, communicating with you in that way after the death of your son is unconscionable (sp?)...

Creme:  Thanks.  I think this is one of the main reasons me and BF have started counseling.  He is a wonderful guy and wonderful to me but there are some things I've noticed that may stem from his family situation - he finds it hard to admit any weaknesses (his family ridicules one another often), he sometimes seems afraid to disagree with me because he thinks I will react badly the way his mother and SIL do (we've reeeally worked on this one), and finds it hard to express emotion sometimes (although I'm not sure how much this is because he's an oblivious guy and how much is due to his unhealthy upbringing).  He denies having any self-esteem problems but that was something our counselor identified right away - I'm going to let her talk to him about it on his own for now....I've also noticed that he and his brother have an EXTREMELY high tolerance for bad/weird behavior.  I see it not just with his mom but also with his SIL (they think it's a little "quirk" when she flashes her money around and then calls herself "working class" - I think this is out of touch with reality).  This bothered me for a long long time because I was worried that I was also controlling, narcissistic etc..  He has always treated me with respect but sometimes I've felt like he was just humoring me the way he humors his mother and SIL....but we've talked about it and he doesn't.  I think he's always wanted a close family but has never experienced it himself so he thought he could just throw me in the mix and we would all be one big dysfunctional family together....and that by ignoring the bad behavior around us, we could be happy.  But now he realizes it's not possible.   I want us both to be able to break this cycle of dysfunction so that we can have a happy family - not that I"m trying to impose my own family way on him - I realize we're both going to have to make compromises.  And we need to include his family - no question.  But what we're trying to work out in counseling is how to do that in a HEALTHY way....But no matter what, I have a feeling his mother is always going to be unhappy.  And that makes me sad because the more we try to include her, the unhappier WE will become...
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: cremebrulee on December 22, 2009, 01:18:23 PM
Quote from: isitme? on December 22, 2009, 09:09:54 AM
Invisible.. it does sound horrible.  No matter what relationship you may have had with her, communicating with you in that way after the death of your son is unconscionable (sp?)...

Creme:  Thanks.  I think this is one of the main reasons me and BF have started counseling.  He is a wonderful guy and wonderful to me but there are some things I've noticed that may stem from his family situation - he finds it hard to admit any weaknesses (his family ridicules one another often), he sometimes seems afraid to disagree with me because he thinks I will react badly the way his mother and SIL do (we've reeeally worked on this one), and finds it hard to express emotion sometimes (although I'm not sure how much this is because he's an oblivious guy and how much is due to his unhealthy upbringing).  He denies having any self-esteem problems but that was something our counselor identified right away - I'm going to let her talk to him about it on his own for now....I've also noticed that he and his brother have an EXTREMELY high tolerance for bad/weird behavior.  I see it not just with his mom but also with his SIL (they think it's a little "quirk" when she flashes her money around and then calls herself "working class" - I think this is out of touch with reality).  This bothered me for a long long time because I was worried that I was also controlling, narcissistic etc..  He has always treated me with respect but sometimes I've felt like he was just humoring me the way he humors his mother and SIL....but we've talked about it and he doesn't.  I think he's always wanted a close family but has never experienced it himself so he thought he could just throw me in the mix and we would all be one big dysfunctional family together....and that by ignoring the bad behavior around us, we could be happy.  But now he realizes it's not possible.   I want us both to be able to break this cycle of dysfunction so that we can have a happy family - not that I"m trying to impose my own family way on him - I realize we're both going to have to make compromises.  And we need to include his family - no question.  But what we're trying to work out in counseling is how to do that in a HEALTHY way....But no matter what, I have a feeling his mother is always going to be unhappy.  And that makes me sad because the more we try to include her, the unhappier WE will become...

again I commend you for not putting on the blinders...and remember...the part you explained about humoring his mother...that is part of him...he is conditioned to be however he is to deal with her...therefore, it will carry over...we are all conditioned to be who we are....remember that...

and yes, your wise to remember that people don't change unless they want to change, or if they're is a great loss which wakes them up...remember, my story about my maternal mother, as a little girl I said over and over again, I do not ever want to be like her...I want to be like my foster mom...and I prayed and prayed that I'd never be a hateful self absorbed person, or ever let money be a prioity in decission making...

I'm sorry my spelling and typing is not so good, but for some reason...whenever I post something, it doesn't work right...I can't explain it, and it will not allow me to quote within the reply....sjust so you know, it won't allow me to see what I'm typing,...

You have a long road ahead of you..but your BF is lucky to have you...and hopefully it willl all turn out nicely for all concerned...Good luck and your in my thoughts and prayers...

big hugs
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: 2chickiebaby on December 22, 2009, 01:22:36 PM
Creme,
You are such a wise woman....I think your words are very consoling and I just love them.  You have been given a wonderful gift in words of healing.  Maybe that's why you have been through so much....to help others.  :)
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: isitme? on December 22, 2009, 01:28:37 PM
I second Chickie's statement.  Thanks Creme..

ps - I've never really noticed that many typos...more focused on the wisdom of your words I guess  ;)
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: cremebrulee on December 23, 2009, 03:41:57 AM
yesterday my son and grand daughter called me on Web Cam...it was so nice finally seeing GD.  They were sitting in the kitchen and we were having a really nice chat...then, DIL walked across the room, did not come to say hello, not one word, just walked across the room, to let me know, she hates me and she won't say hello.  She had that angry look on her face...hateful....I shudder to think what she'd do and how she'd treat my son if they would break up...I hope to God they don't...but if they would...let me tell you, you think you know someone, until you go thru a divorce, and then you ask yourself, how in the world could I have been married to someone like that? 

I am rest assured, that my son and his wife, would never split...

You should have seen her actions when I'm around, so afraid of even a conversation he and I were having...

You'd think, in that particular moment, she'd allow for 10 minutes....but nope...I tell you, I used to think she was beautiful...now, I only see what's inside...a very angry woman.

She does everything she can to remind me, she has control....I keep thinking of my Girlfriend who has 4 DIL's who love her so...who call her constantly, the one, almost everyday...they organize birthday parties for her, and help her out on other holidays...they are such a close family b/c of it...I wonder what that would be like?
Oh the joy, huh?

My DIL is so much like my son's step mom...so insecure, and needing to have center stage at all times...
It must drive her nuts when my son and I are getting along and talking...
When I told my young friend at work about the tomboy issue...she flipped...she is my DIL's age, and she absolutely flipped...she gets so angry about this situation, she says, Creme, I would love to be in room alone for 1 minute with your DIL...this stuff is kindergarden, your DIL...and then she stopped and said, Please, don't get me started...the lives she is ruining is unheard of and someday she will get hers...I hope not, I hope she wakes up, but doubt very much she will....
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: 2chickiebaby on December 23, 2009, 05:33:03 AM
Creme, this is common for the DILs to make a statement by walking through..sending a message that she is there, arms folded, marching by, like an elf from a bad dream.   She disappears and then, if it doesn't work, she marches back for another view.  "In charge"
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: cremebrulee on December 23, 2009, 05:52:53 AM
exactly!
I guess it's a lot easier to show her hate, then it is to just simply be nice...it was like
I'm here, but I won't say hello...I hate you.....
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: isitme? on December 23, 2009, 06:31:29 AM
Quote from: cremebrulee on December 23, 2009, 03:41:57 AM
My DIL is so much like my son's step mom...so insecure, and needing to have center stage at all times...

Creme, did your son spend a lot of time with his step mother when he was growing up?  Maybe that explains why he is able to tolerate his wife's behavior... 

Even if you don't get along with someone's mother, it's NOT that hard to just say "hello" and be polite.  You're right and it sounds like your DIL is deliberately trying to prove to you how much she hates you.  That is absurd behavior and I hope you don't let it bother you.  I feel sorry for your son and grandchild as well.  They are the ones that have to deal with this personality on a day to day basis and it's bound to affect them - especially the child who will learn this type of thing is ok to do.   :(
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: cremebrulee on December 23, 2009, 07:05:59 AM
yes, he did spend a lot of time with her, when he was 14 or 15 I allowed him to go live with his father...I felt I was doing the right thing at the time...but I was wrong....what I should have done, was allowed him to go spend summer's there, and had him come back and finish school at our home in the winter....but I thought it would be good for him at that age to know his father, have his father's influence...his father is a very good man, passive, and easy going...doesn't like confrontation...

and yes, it did hurt, but, I'm becoming more and more immune to her behavior...do, surely didn't hurt as much as it did a long time ago...I'm to the point that, I say to myself..."what did you expect?"  and then I tell myself, she is never going to come around...I won't allow myself faulse hope...besides...she's hung in there with this act for all these years...she is not going to change now....


and yes, I do worry about my GD...I told my son once, that she is going to grow up like her mother...insecure and controlling...but there is hope, b/c she is now allowing her to stay over at other kids homes...so, she will do what I did when I was little...observe other families and other rules and come out being herself...I hope...and she has her father in her...so perhaps that will help, but him being away, gives her  mother more influence...and when my GD was little, she was dressing her up like a hollywood movie star baby....everything had to be the BEST....so, that is what GD will expect....I believe my DIL only feels good about herself when she puts someting new on...and her lavish taste is killing my son....it's none of my business...and yet, I can't help but wonder, what woman would not work when her child is in school all day, and help her husband out...I would work 2 jobs if It would keep my husband home, instead of working over in afghnaistan....you''d think she'd be embarrassed....yanno?  I don't get it?  She told me once, she would never work in an office again...like it was degrading, and she was degrading me, as I've been an office manager for nearly all my life....but to have such expensive tastes, so that your husband has to work the way he does is really ludicrist...heartless and selfish...and now my son's life is at stake b/c of her....
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: isitme? on December 23, 2009, 07:27:10 AM
I was thinking about that question because I remember you saying that you liked that article on co-narcissism I posted before...

I've been trying to do some reading on how children who come from narcissistic parents can be helped...and what I've found is that all you can do is provide unconditional love and reassurance that not everyone is narcissistic.  This lead me to some reading on Stockholm syndrome...and again, there's little you can do to convince the abused to leave or turn against the abuser and the only thing you can do is let them know you are always there for them.  That's what I"ve done my whole life with my best friend who also has an extremely narcissistic mother and has suffered terribly because of it (surprise surprise, she is good "friends" with my FMIL and the two of them like to trash me and blame me for putting bad thoughts in their children's heads...they are both adults and can make up their own minds).  My best friend feels like no one loves her for who she really is and has no confidence in her own judgment and very low self-esteem.... it is causing HUGE problems in her life right now..  But rather then get mad at her, all I can do it provide unconditional love and let her know whatever she ends up doing, she will always have my support.  She doens't get this from anyone in her family and I'm beginning to see how my BF has grown up with the same dynamic...

The point I'm trying to make is that it's probably natural to worry about your granddaughter's upbringing with a mother like this.  But all you can do is maybe provide her with unconditional love and support and let her see that there IS a different model of love and family out there.  I agree with your point about her observing other families now that she is allowed to stay over at other kids' homes... 
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: cremebrulee on December 23, 2009, 08:38:02 AM
Thank you...I really appreciate you concepts and advice....
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: Invisible on December 24, 2009, 12:36:18 PM
I believe her hate for me is for no other reason than I am the MIL.  I have given her no other reasons. Several years before my son died their marriage was slowly deteriorating. She was leaving my son and the baby, travelling to rock concerts. My son had no tattoos and she was starting with that stuff. He was discussing divorce with me but he did not want to lose his daughter. He was so close to his little girl. Now the worst case scenario has occurred. I think she hated my son and of course that would have to include me. She told me I am a bad influence on my GD. I never see my GD on holidays...any holidays.  It was not permitted. I was allowed to leave gifts at the door or with a neighbor. So, I am accustom to holiday solitude.  The only thing in life we can count on is change.
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: 2chickiebaby on December 24, 2009, 12:43:29 PM
Dear Invisible,
Your story really hurts my heart for you.  This woman is sick...very sick.  I hope and pray that you can find some peace in your heart, even a little bit for YOUR sake.  I just know that some of the ladies on here can help.  So little you can do when you are dealing with the devil.
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: Invisible on December 27, 2009, 05:07:01 PM
2 chickiebaby,

I know my DIL has problems. My son and I would discuss his situation. The school is very much in tune with this fragile situation. The person I am concerned about is my GD.
Title: Re: Observations
Post by: 2chickiebaby on December 27, 2009, 05:15:12 PM
I know you are, Invisible.  Your Granddaughter is blessed to have you to love her. She might not know for years just how blessed she is.....I know that kind of love firsthand from my own Grandmother. A loving Grandmother can't be replaced.