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In regards to my first posting My DIL says we are unacceptable grandparents.

This is the email my DIL sent to me. It is all I can do to even read it.  The facts she stated are not correct. We didn't hang up on her. We have spent 2 Christmas' there, I have photos! Her trying to make us a family is all about her always trying to control us.
She never stays at our home when she comes to visit her friends. She has never called us just to say hello or how are you. In fact she NEVER calls here ever.  My son used to but not anymore. He is stuck in the middle.

I so want to reply to this, but am also just letting things cool down.  Has anyone had any experience with this?


The crazy thing about the two of you is you cant even talk and work things out.  You hung up on me March 25th and now you both do on May 17th.  You are both unbelievable.  I don't know how you do it but how dare you make my husband feel guilty for the kind of son he is.
My husband the most amazing person I have ever met.  I think it is amazing what we he has done with his life with the type of guidance he has had.  He is the most amazing father, husband, grandson, friend, employer and employee.  The way you spoke to him tonight is completely unacceptable.  You both put yourself in this position...NO ONE ElSE!!!!

It is amazing to me that you think it is acceptable for a good grandparent to call once every two months.  The best part of this all is when you hung up on me March 25th you made it very clear to let me know you have two sons.  The funny thing you forgot is you have 5 grandkids.  I have sent at least 6 sets of pictures and you have not responded to one yet on facebook you talk about all your other grandkids and comment on how cute they are.  Since the day I have met your son it is ALWAYS us going out of our way to be part of your family.  When you lived 10 minutes from us it was ALWAYS us planning the family dinners or stopping by or asking you guys over.  It was us that always got everyone together for holiday birthdays and more.  Since we have moved it is us mostly going out of our way and how often do the two of you visit.  My husband works so hard and we have kids with events and I work and part of the school system.  For you to travel here definitely makes more sense but I forgot it is just your grandkids.
As I stated  4 ½ years ago, you and I had a conversation where you promised you would change and make a point to be a family.  I promised to be here with open arms and give you a chance to change....well you failed.  Your granddaughter barely knows who you guys are and that is only your fault because she knows who GG is and her Aunt.  You have  two of the most amazing loving grandchildren I have ever met who would love you day in and out and actually do.  When you are around them you are great with them it just amazes me that you are fine with seeing them and talking to them the amount that you only do.
When we first moved here it was soooo important that you had your first Christmas in your house.   Four days after we moved into our house we made sure we flew there for that.  You both have NEVER been here for a holiday even though we invite you every year...but don't worry we understand what is important.

I for 14 years have worked hard to make sure we were all a family.  I knew you had no girls so when I was getting married I made sure you were part of the dress selection.  I have always tried to make you both part of our life.  I have always made sure the kids call and do stuff but I have to say I am DONE.  Every few months you both do something to disappoint me by the type of parent or grandparent you are.  I only get more upset by the things I do.  It is funny you know since the day of our son's birth you have always gotten me a mothers day card but not this one.  I know I am an awful daughter in law by helping my husband and grammie make there wishes come true and have her be here for a couple months to spend amazing time with her great grandkids, and grandkids.  I was in shock that day you were able to make it about you and cause an argument at a time like this but I have learned that is who you are. 
In the last few months I have sent numerous pictures of the children and events with not ONE response so that to me shows that you do not care.  Why should I keep sending you pictures there is not one response.  I was taught and raised with family members when you get a gift and cards you pick up the phone and call and say thank you kind of a personal thing to do.  Funny I don't think that is how you raised  your family so I thought I would play by your rules...how does it feel?
Last it is funny that you hung up on me the truth must hurt sometimes.  It is about my kids 100% and that is why I am done.  I am not going to have you treat my children the way that your son was treated.  When my kids graduate college I expect the people that love him to be there.  When special moments are part of their life I expect them to be there.  And when you tell my son you are going to be at one of his basketball games(yes you did and he keeps asking when) I expect you to keep your word.  It is about my husband to because I care for him and love him and think the world of him so NO ONE is going to treat him how you did tonight.  Funny if you think about it you did the same  tonight.
You can be part of my kids life but it will be with you making the effort.  It needs to be two ways and you need to earn my trust and faith back if you think I am going to participate.  I am an amazing person, mom, daughter, friend and have been the most amazing daughter in law but I am done being used.  My own family has never hung up on me or speak to me the way the two of you have.

I would like to end this by saying my parents raised me with lots of values and lessons.  One important is to always let people in and to forgive with open arms.  I will always make sure you are part of my childrens life but I will not go out of my way for a long time that trust and guarantee will need to be earned back.

I would reply. "Got your email. Thanks for taking the time to share your perceptions and perspectives."

I would not start picking away at any of it or point out that much of it is incorrect. That's a road that never ends. She took the time to write...give her that. And she cares, I'd give her that, too.

Before I tossed that email, I would look very carefully to see if there was any truth in it anywhere. We often have "blind spots"...at least I do. Then, I'd back way off regarding what I wanted, expected or even hoped for. That's her reality. You can't rewrite it. She could but she probably won't. Sending love...

I think the only thing you can do is sincerely apologize (if you can) and try to make things right with her.  It's really unfair, but if you want a relationship with your DS and GC's, you have to dance to her tune.

Without arguing over facts, you should re-read her letter and see what her feelings are. 

She felt like you hung up on her.  It's an awful feeling.  It's easy to apologize for that:  "DIL, I'm so sorry I made you feel like I hung up on you, I would never hang up on you, I was just so emotional that I had to get off the phone and cool off, I said "I have to go", probably too low and too quick, I should have explained myself better, but I really needed to cool off, I'm sorry for making you feel that way."

She feels like you don't see your GC's enough!  Halleluia!  Call MORE, visit MORE, send cards and letters.  She WANTS you to be involved in your GC's life - what a gift!

She doesn't feel like you appreciate the effort she *has* made, to send photos ect.  This is SO easy to fix, make a note to appreciate her more obviously because she needs to 'hear' it. 

I find this one particularly funny, because my DH and I are the best examples of this.  He's a Capricorn and I'm a Cancer, generally a good match.  Except, I need to be reassured again and again that he loves me and appreciates me and everything I do (typical Cancer).  As far as he's concerned (classic Capricorn) he's told me once, and as long as it holds true, he shouldn't have to tell me again.  He'll tell me when it's not true anymore!  Luckily, we were able to really *SEE* this, and now I tell him what I need to hear and he jokes "What?  I told you I loved you just last month!"  And we laugh it off.

Maybe you've thanked your son for the pictures ect and he didn't pass the thanks on to her.  Meanwhile, she's done all the 'work', with no reward.  That's not fair either. 

She wants you to spend holidays with her, DS and the kids and she feels like you don't WANT to. 

I think you and DIL have a communication problem at the most basic level.  I think that you will have to really open your mind to your DIL and point of view.   I hope you can, because this relationship sounds VERY salvageable to me.

Please, open your mind and your heart to this DIL - you can make this relationship better, but it's going to take some work.  Roll up your sleeves and get to it!

PS - don't send her a letter back, unless it's what Louise wrote or something to the effect of "I received your letter and I would like to speak with you, when is a good time for us to speak uninterrupted?"

Scoop - The next time I'm up against it (whatever "it" is) I want you in my corner!

Even though I know I will get a lot of he** for this, I could have been the DIL that wrote this. I'm not going to agree or disagree but I believe there are always 2 sides to every story. Even though I know I have been in the right sometimes, so has she. And vice versa. Probably some of those things may not have happened that way or even at all, but you need to understand that she believes it did. Maybe both of you should talk and ask her why she thinks that. I wish my ILs would do that. I've realized over the years that I have acted immaturely and mean, BUT so have they. If you want a relationship, maybe you should try to talk to her and your son and the grandchildren. If she wants you around more, then think about reasons why she would think you weren't. Try to talk to her because she's probably hurting as much as you and she probably wants to have a better relationship with you.   

Dear Saddened by it all

I'm so sorry, but this is going to be long...
and I'll give it to you from my point of view...
1st, keep that email...pack it away somewhere...never throw it away.

I went thru 12 years of this with my DIL...we both came from two totally different cultures...when things happened, she thought I was jealous of her relationship with my son, and tried to drive a wedge between them, and I thought the same of her...I thought she literally hated me...and she thought I hated her...awful! 
I thought I was doing everything I could to make it work, and we were both walking on egg shells every time we were around each other which wasn't much. 
Your DIL has certain expectations of you, which are wrong of her to feel that way, without maturely sitting down with you and discussing the issues with you, and not just talking but listening to. 
You are wrong to have expecations of her...why, because you both come from different family upbringings, two totally different people.
She was wrong for trying to slam you about how you raised your son...that should never be done....however, people say horrible things about each other when they feel like you and she do...I did...and I can tell you, God as my witness I am very very sorry for saying and thinking those things about my DIL.
I know your very hurt and devestated by this letter...please note, that the very idea that she wrote you, surprises me...she's hurting, and wants you to be a part of they're family..that is very evident...
She wants you to be there for the kids...that is encouraging...
yes, some of the stuff she said, she shouldn't have said...however, if you wrote her an email right now, you'd say things which would hurt her, and I don't advise you to do that....
I finally sat down and wrote my DIL a letter and told her I was sorry, so very sorry for this all happening....explained to her, that we both are the same in a lot of ways, yet very different in a lot of ways....I am more like your DIL is...and she is not one to call, she is not kissy face huggy bear and seems very cold at times, however, that is the way she is....and whose to say, I'm right?  It's just the way I was raised...

Please understand that...do not ever respond to her in anger or say things to her to hurt her, to get even.  If I were you, I would start making more of an attempt...and if you can...ask her from time to time, "what do you think?"  Let her think she is in control..what is wrong with that...and if you cannot live up to what she is asking, then very nicely explain to her why and where and how...and do it with the utmost sincereity.

I believe you can work this out, I do...but you really have to calm down and not take things personal she is saying...I know that is hard, but what it comes down to, is, do you want peace and harmony in your life?  Do you want to be friends with them?  If so, then both of you have to change your attitudes, and you have to be the one to start, and I believe she will follow. 

If you ever sit down and talk to her, never say, well, you did this or that...ask her if your misunderstanding her actions, as I did with my DIL...I so misunderstood a lot of things she did and said.

Understand also, that she is young, and as she grows older she will possibly understand...right now, she wants her way, so give it to her...don't fight her...

There are mil's here that would give the world to have they're DIL's want them to be a part of they're lives...your DIL is not closing the door...

Please do like Luise said, and don't respond by email...give it a few days, and take a long hard look at self...ask yourself what you want...we don't like to be told what to do, we hate it when people give us ultimatiums...and she has this idea in her head what a family should be...so, meet her half way...you might be surprised what goodness comes of it. 

Drop the bad feelings...don't take what she said personal...we say things a lot that we don't mean...she in my opinion is going about it the wrong way, however, she is trying to get your attention, the only way she knows how...that is all she knows...understand that with compassion...you might be surprised, what comes of it all...

if you have questions, come in here and ask the gals about what your feeling..and why...and lets all work on it together...and maybe, you can work this all out, as I really do believe it is doable...

I totally agree with Sad DIL and Luise...they both have given you some wise perspectives...don't retaliate with vengence...you will only end up hurting yourself...just calm down and realize, she said these things to get your attention...she is angry and hurt, just like you are...

I read this DIL's email yesterday and couldn't even comment.  I felt socked in the stomach.  It's incredibly awful.  Sad, I'm with you.

I always wonder when people do something like this if they ever stop to THINK, even for five seconds, that maybe today isn't the best day to send a sword out over the Internet.  Maybe, just maybe, the recipient of the hate mail is having a bad day, got fired, found a lump in her breast, or got a nasty letter from the bank.  People like this just go for it, utterly selfishly, and frankly it infuriates me.  If you have an issue with a person, for heaven's sake find a better way to deal with it than words-as-weapons.  That's not solving anything; that's just making war. 

Less than two weeks after my mother died, I received such an email from one of my sisters, outlining all the faults she perceived in me since childhood.  (My three sisters, by the way, resemble the stepsisters in "Cinderella."  I was put in the role of doing a lot of the work of raising them, hence the latent resentment.) To this day, four years later, I haven't replied.  I'm not going to deal on the same level as people who slam others in an email, surely the coward's cheap way out.  Yet Luise may be right about sending a polite reply; I did this to an email from my son/DIL that had a few nasty comments in it; at least you acknowledge it, and if you don't, it probably adds fuel to her fire.  But I totally agree you should not retaliate by getting into a reply point-by-point.  Just more damage and as Luise says, this has no ending.

Creme, I once lost it slightly with my DIL; didn't say things I regret, but did get upset with her.  She used it as a weapon, lied about the extent of it to my son and her role in creating that.  Ever since then, I've been excruciatingly polite.  I'm not handing her another opportunity EVER.

Did anyone see "Anne of Green Gables" on PBS?  Remember that scene where Anne has to go apologize to the neighbor for reacting---naturally---to horrible things the neighbor said to her face?  Anne learned how to enjoy that apology and both Marilla and the neighbor ended up feeling there was something slightly amiss about that enjoyment.  I have never forgotten that.  Excruciatingly polite responses can even be enjoyable, I've learned. 

While your DIL may have real issues with you that need to be worked out---I'm not saying she did---she should have talked to you kindly about it.  Words can be weapons as has been pointed out here before and when they are in writing, they are there forever.  Also my cousin is a computer expert and tells me it's foolish to conduct personal communication like that over the Internet, as the emails always will be there.  If this relationship is important to you, perhaps at some time in the future when everyone has calmed down you could create a meeting with her to talk about it.  If you do, I think you should set some ground rules of courtesy during the discussion.  But if she is deliberately mis-perceiving things (says you hang up on her and you didn't) be prepared for more of the same. 

Still trying to get my breath back, Sad, and hope you have yours back by now,

Kathleen

I have read all of the posts and I think every one of them has great ideas, suggestions and wisdom in them.  I will say, I wish my DIL would write me an email or something so I could figure out what her perceptions were.  I know that the snide comments she made were not nice and hurtful to you, but I have to say....you now know her perception and how to deal with her.  It may be totally insane and innaccurate, but you know what it is now.

Mine has shut me out and alienated my son to the point we don't even talk.  When I have tried to talk to her and him, they both shut down and will not say anything.  I know my DIL is very immature and spoiled so her perceptions are probably WAY out there as well because I would never cave in to her whiney, ridiculous demands when they were dating.  One for example, she thought I should pay their rent and utilities so they could get a place together while they were attending college.  Her words were that while her and my son was attending college, that I should still support them.  This was not feasible for me to do as a one income single parent and I told her that our deal had always been,  he was welcome to live at home for free while attending college but I couldn't afford to pay for him to live outside the home. If he wanted to get a place of his own, he would have to pay for it because I couldn't.  Ok, that is totally logical to most people but in her world where her parents had spoiled her rotten, all she heard in her head was:  So she wants to keep him at home away from me, doesn't want us to be together and she's not doing what I want.  (Insert stomping feet and rolling eyes here.)  Her mother even called me and wanted to know if it was true that I refused to financially support them?  So I calmly explained to her mother that yes, it was true that I could not afford to pay their rent and utilities along with my own.  But that I would continue to financially support my son if he lived at home.  I would still pay all the home bills, still buy him groceries and help with his gas momey to drive back and forth.  I could afford to do that. Her mother hung up on my after saying I was a bad mother and didn't love my son like she loved her daughter.

But I would still love to know what their perceptions are so maybe I could find a way to get along with her.  So maybe you can look at this email as a way to know what she is thinking and figure out how to reach some neutral ground.  Turn this negative into a positive.

I understand that you don't have the finances to go see your grandchildren as often as you would like.  She is not understanding that since she has probably never had to deal with not having money to be able to do things.  So I have a suggestion you might could try if you decide to try to talk to her at some point.

Since you have a computer and internet,  and I would think they do as well since she sent you an email.  How about purchasing a couple of web-cams (they are not very expensive anymore) and mail one to her?  If she would hook it up to theirs, and you have one one yours, you could see and talk to your GC often.  It would also be a way to maybe see her and your son more and an easier way for you to thank her for pictures and such (and I think the other posters were dead-on with she seems to need constant thank yous).  This might show her how much you are interested in your GC and them too.

SaddenedBIT, I agree with Kathleen about not putting anything over the internet that you don't want to see plastered all over the place..those communications can be passed around faster and farther than writings on paper which can be dangerous enough. They can be altered, cut, pasted and changed to fit the receiver's agenda. Be careful!

It's hard to distinguish sometimes between an honest attempt by a DIL to improve a relationship with her MIL and more impossible hoops for MIL to  jump through so DIL can claim that her MIL is impossible and cut her off as per an agenda long in the works. I guess I sound bitter and skeptical, but I'd be very, very careful here if I were you...open to the possibility of a reconciliation, but without expectations one way or the other.

Written communications are so one-sided. There is no tone of voice, body language or exchange. There's no room. And of course, there's no privacy. (Look where her email ended up.) A unilateral statement is a place to hide and "be right."

I have a Web cam and they are a great way to chat. What a wonderful suggestion. See if you can open a door and ask if kindness can be part of any further presentations. There are many ways to say the same thing. Judgment and attack are "door closers." Sending love...

Written communications are so one-sided. There is no tone of voice, body language or exchange.

Putting your thoughts in writing can have it's advantages, especially in emotional situations. Face to face it is too easy not to hear what is being said over the internal dialogue. You hear something upsetting and focus on that particular point, missing the big picture. I often tell my friends and family, when they have something difficult to express, put it in writing. That way you can take your time and express your feelings clearly. It also allows the person you are trying to reach, the opportunity to digest your words without an emotional knee jerk reaction.

Saddenedbyitall, I know this email was very hurtful to you. Your DIL may have misinterpreted your actions and judged you unfairly. But if you peel away all the 'hurt', I think you will see what she really wants is for you and your DH to be more involved in their lives. There are many woman here who have had that door shut on them and are suffering because of it. Don't get caught up in what has already happened - who's right, who's wrong. Take this opportunity to make positive change. If you can't be there physically write, call, whatever you can to be connected.

I don't think there's a way to win by replying...but if you did...I'd copy her email and respond in the body of it.   Something along the lines of:

Quote from: saddened by it all on May 21, 2010, 08:40:59 AM

In regards to my first posting My DIL says we are unacceptable grandparents.

This is the email my DIL sent to me. It is all I can do to even read it.  The facts she stated are not correct. We didn't hang up on her. We have spent 2 Christmas' there, I have photos! Her trying to make us a family is all about her always trying to control us.
She never stays at our home when she comes to visit her friends. She has never called us just to say hello or how are you. In fact she NEVER calls here ever.  My son used to but not anymore. He is stuck in the middle.

I so want to reply to this, but am also just letting things cool down.  Has anyone had any experience with this?


The crazy thing about the two of you is you cant even talk and work things out.  You hung up on me March 25th and now you both do on May 17th.  You are both unbelievable.  I don't know how you do it but how dare you make my husband feel guilty for the kind of son he is.
My husband the most amazing person I have ever met.  I think it is amazing what we he has done with his life with the type of guidance he has had.  It's unfortunate you feel that way.  Thank you for letting me know son has issues regarding his upbringing.  I  will make sure that I contact him so that he can let me know his thoughts and I can understand his feelings.  He is the most amazing father, husband, grandson, friend, employer and employee.    Yes, his is a lovely man.  The way you spoke to him tonight is completely unacceptable.  You both put yourself in this position...NO ONE ElSE!!!!

It is amazing to me that you think it is acceptable for a good grandparent to call once every two months.  The best part of this all is when you hung up on me March 25th you made it very clear to let me know you have two sons.  The funny thing you forgot is you have 5 grandkids.  I have sent at least 6 sets of pictures and you have not responded to one yet   I'm sorry.  I do enjoy the pictures and I will make sure to personally respond in the future.   on facebook you talk about all your other grandkids and comment on how cute they are.  I have the permission of their parents to do that.  I don't have yours, and since the internet really is worldwide and you never know who's looking, I would never dare comment on a child or post a picture of them without parent  permission.  Is it ok for me to comment about them online?  Since the day I have met your son it is ALWAYS us going out of our way to be part of your family.  When you lived 10 minutes from us it was ALWAYS us planning the family dinners or stopping by or asking you guys over.  It was us that always got everyone together for holiday birthdays and more.  Since we have moved it is us mostly going out of our way and how often do the two of you visit.  My husband works so hard and we have kids with events and I work and part of the school system.  For you to travel here definitely makes more sense but I forgot it is just your grandkids.    To you, schedule wise it may.  There are financial issues for us and we do not have the $$ to make many trips back and forth.  I am not saying I expect you all to make the trips back and forth either...I am simply saying that financially it is hard for us.
As I stated  4 ½ years ago, you and I had a conversation where you promised you would change and make a point to be a family.  I promised to be here with open arms and give you a chance to change....well you failed.  Your granddaughter barely knows who you guys are and that is only your fault because she knows who GG is and her Aunt.  You have  two of the most amazing loving grandchildren I have ever met who would love you day in and out and actually do.  When you are around them you are great with them it just amazes me that you are fine with seeing them and talking to them the amount that you only do. We would love to see the grandchildren more.  We also do not want to infringe on your family time together and make a bother of ourselves.  Would you like for us to set down and work out a schedule acceptable to all concerned?
When we first moved here it was soooo important that you had your first Christmas in your house.   Four days after we moved into our house we made sure we flew there for that.  You both have NEVER been here for a holiday even though we invite you every year...but don't worry we understand what is important.Again, finances are an issue.  And, we don't expect you all to do all the traveling.

I for 14 years have worked hard to make sure we were all a family.  I knew you had no girls so when I was getting married I made sure you were part of the dress selection.  Thank you.  I have always tried to make you both part of our life.  I have always made sure the kids call and do stuff but I have to say I am DONE.  Every few months you both do something to disappoint me by the type of parent or grandparent you are. Let me know what's bothering you when it happens and I'll address it.  I only get more upset by the things I do.  It is funny you know since the day of our son's birth you have always gotten me a mothers day card but not this one.  I know I am an awful daughter in law by helping my husband and grammie make there wishes come true and have her be here for a couple months to spend amazing time with her great grandkids, and grandkids.  I was in shock that day you were able to make it about you and cause an argument at a time like this but I have learned that is who you are. 
In the last few months I have sent numerous pictures of the children and events with not ONE response so that to me shows that you do not care.  Why should I keep sending you pictures there is not one response.  I was taught and raised with family members when you get a gift and cards you pick up the phone and call and say thank you kind of a personal thing to do.  Funny I don't think that is how you raised  your family so I thought I would play by your rules...how does it feel?  No...my family has not typically made calls after receiving pictures or cards.  Had I known that you wanted one [and I did not] then I would have called.  Now that I know, I will.
Last it is funny that you hung up on me the truth must hurt sometimes.  It is about my kids 100% and that is why I am done.  I am not going to have you treat my children the way that your son was treated.  When my kids graduate college I expect the people that love him to be there.  When special moments are part of their life I expect them to be there.  And when you tell my son you are going to be at one of his basketball games(yes you did and he keeps asking when) I expect you to keep your word.  It is about my husband to because I care for him and love him and think the world of him so NO ONE is going to treat him how you did tonight.  Funny if you think about it you did the same  tonight.
You can be part of my kids life but it will be with you making the effort.  It needs to be two ways and you need to earn my trust and faith back if you think I am going to participate.  I am an amazing person, mom, daughter, friend and have been the most amazing daughter in law but I am done being used.  My own family has never hung up on me or speak to me the way the two of you have.

I would like to end this by saying my parents raised me with lots of values and lessons.  One important is to always let people in and to forgive with open arms.  I will always make sure you are part of my childrens life but I will not go out of my way for a long time that trust and guarantee will need to be earned back.

I don't think there's a way to win by responding with email.  If you want to talk with your son and then with her...try that.  I wouldn't expect this to end well, though.  It sounds like emotions are running high and that both sides see things very differently.  Regardless of whether she is right or wrong, she is the parent and she has the right to decide who is or isn't involved with her kids.

Personally, I think if you reply in the manner Glitter suggests your response could possibly make things worse. To me it sounds full of excuses and rebuttal. Your DIL is not asking you to defend yourself or even explain, she is telling you what has disappointed her - regardless of the reasons. Move forward. She has left the door open for you and is telling you she wants you to be closer - more involved with her family. If you try to rehash the past to determine who was right, who was to blame, why you did, why you didn't etc., you are going to get stuck on the wrong side of the door. It's up to you to find a way to be more involved - if that's what you want. I understand that you cannot visit as much as you would like but there are so many other things you can do. So often it is the small unexpected gestures that create the strongest bonds and warmest memories. Your GD may not have remembered which birthday gift came from you out of all the packages she opened, but I guarantee a special card saying "Gramma loves you", arriving unexpectedly would not soon be forgotten.   

 If DIL has taken the trouble to send an email I would grab the opportunity to put things right
When my husband confronted my MIL with things she said and did she denied it flatly. I dont think she even knew she was doing it. It was part of the way she was.
We can all be misunderstood many times throughout life.
"People love to be loved and loved to be hated but they hate to be ignored" Your DIL is not ignoring you. Communication is open and the ball is in MIL's court. Without any accusations I think you should take this opportunity to set things straight in the best way possible so that you can be a family.
An email would be far better than face to face.
In fact write the email on this forum first and let all wise women modify and sanction it.
In that way you will not be alone and we can all shoulder a bit of blame if it goes wrong. :-X

Lots of good stuff on this thread to consider. You are all so GREAT! Sending love...

Quote from: Pooh on May 22, 2010, 08:38:39 AM
I have read all of the posts and I think every one of them has great ideas, suggestions and wisdom in them.  I will say, I wish my DIL would write me an email or something so I could figure out what her perceptions were.  I know that the snide comments she made were not nice and hurtful to you, but I have to say....you now know her perception and how to deal with her.  It may be totally insane and innaccurate, but you know what it is now.

Mine has shut me out and alienated my son to the point we don't even talk.  When I have tried to talk to her and him, they both shut down and will not say anything.  I know my DIL is very immature and spoiled so her perceptions are probably WAY out there as well because I would never cave in to her whiney, ridiculous demands when they were dating.  One for example, she thought I should pay their rent and utilities so they could get a place together while they were attending college.  Her words were that while her and my son was attending college, that I should still support them.  This was not feasible for me to do as a one income single parent and I told her that our deal had always been,  he was welcome to live at home for free while attending college but I couldn't afford to pay for him to live outside the home. If he wanted to get a place of his own, he would have to pay for it because I couldn't.  Ok, that is totally logical to most people but in her world where her parents had spoiled her rotten, all she heard in her head was:  So she wants to keep him at home away from me, doesn't want us to be together and she's not doing what I want.  (Insert stomping feet and rolling eyes here.)  Her mother even called me and wanted to know if it was true that I refused to financially support them?  So I calmly explained to her mother that yes, it was true that I could not afford to pay their rent and utilities along with my own.  But that I would continue to financially support my son if he lived at home.  I would still pay all the home bills, still buy him groceries and help with his gas momey to drive back and forth.  I could afford to do that. Her mother hung up on my after saying I was a bad mother and didn't love my son like she loved her daughter.

But I would still love to know what their perceptions are so maybe I could find a way to get along with her.  So maybe you can look at this email as a way to know what she is thinking and figure out how to reach some neutral ground.  Turn this negative into a positive.

I understand that you don't have the finances to go see your grandchildren as often as you would like.  She is not understanding that since she has probably never had to deal with not having money to be able to do things.  So I have a suggestion you might could try if you decide to try to talk to her at some point.

Since you have a computer and internet,  and I would think they do as well since she sent you an email.  How about purchasing a couple of web-cams (they are not very expensive anymore) and mail one to her?  If she would hook it up to theirs, and you have one one yours, you could see and talk to your GC often.  It would also be a way to maybe see her and your son more and an easier way for you to thank her for pictures and such (and I think the other posters were dead-on with she seems to need constant thank yous).  This might show her how much you are interested in your GC and them too.

This is a typical example of misunderstandings where mother was not able to assist with helping DS and DIL financially if he moved out.

Perhaps  if at the time this happened you had sat down with son and daughter in law and put your financers down on paper to show them you could not afford to assist they would have understood why.

Unfortunately this will now remain a bone of contention,probably forever because there was misunderstandings on both sides.
DIL could not understand why MIL could not help and MIL did not explain it properly.

MIL may think well what do my financer have to do with her(DIL) Pride!!!
Best would have been to have said well this is my position do you two think I can change this in any way in order to be able to help. Humility
  I am just using this as an example and only perceiving how this could have been handled.

It is the same with children. If we tell them not to do something they will always ask why Mom why?
"Because I say so" is not an answer. A child really wants to know why?
An honest answer is all they need to understand.

Reading between the lines I would say that perhaps Pooh did not want to let go of son and refusing financial help unless he stayed at home was a way of getting him to stay.( Only expressing an example of how DIL may have read between the lines). If she expressed it then Pooh would get back up and blah!! blah!! blah!! see what I mean??



Pooh just using an example. Blessings!!

Four years ago,my son was not talking to me,my counselor advised me to write a letter to my son.She read it,thought it was awesome.It was a  heart felt,nothing negative,all positive. She did not want me to send it to the house,because she was afraid he would never get it.So i put it in an envelope addressed to him,then in another envelope addressed to my ys.Ask him to make sure os got it.Now this was after my counselor ask if i thought my ex would mind coming in  a couple times with me.My ex and i were civil towards each other,but had never discussed os and DIL until then.After talking to my ex and i together is when she suggested i write him............So ys said he would,he did not read the letter,left it sealed.He went over to os house,stayed a while talking and playing with GC.When he went to leave os followed him out and they were standing talking,and ys told os he had a letter for him.He had on a pair of shorts with no pockets and GC started crying so he put the letter in his waist band to be able to bend over and pick up GC.Then Dil came out of house yelling,whats that you just put in your pants?OS said a letter from my Mom.Dil ask,why are you trying to hide it?OS said i'm not!I have no pockets and put it there to pick up GC.Then ys leaves,and DIL calls him on his cell phone and tells him she would appreciate out of respect for her not to try and hide things from her.ys said he was not trying to hide any thing,or disrespect her,he was respecting his Moms wishes.My os son called the next night,said i just called to break the ice,i haven't read the letter yet.I thought that was odd he would say that.But thought he really did read it,just maybe embarrassed and wanted to be the bigger person.Said he just wanted a new start,and he was sorry.Well now with the way things have turned out,I'm not sure if he ever did read it.And it appears to have been used to hurt me.

So you just never know how things will turn out.Still hurting,but moving on.

I, personally, would never reply to this email. This dil is very bitter.
If you want a relationship with your son and grandchildren (now or in the future) I would put it in your safe and forget about it.
Make a knew start with her (at least in your mind).Be kind and as cordial you can be to your dil and let your son see you are trying to make things better.
Don't let her or your anger break up your family and the love you have for them. Life is too short.

RedRose - Sometimes I wish that's what I had done when I got that terrible hate letter from my DIL nine days after my son died, describing me as evil incarnate. No, that's not quite true, I wish I had acknowledged her but not commented on her perceptions, judgments and edicts. Once we get into debate...it's all over to my way of thinking. Attack, defense, offense; it sounds like a game and it is...a lethal one. I remember it like it was yesterday and it's ten years ago next month.

Sending love...

Catchingup,  Very good observation on your part.  I had sat down with both of my sons when their father walked out on us 2 months prior and we had went over my finances and what I was able to do.  I showed them both my income, versus bills and what would be leftover.  I had never involved my sons in our finances prior to this because it had never been an issue and frankly, wasn't something they ever had to worry about.

Because my oldest son was in his first year of college, and my youngest was a senior with plans to go to college, I knew I was going to struggle with only my income to be able to help them as much as I could have when we had two incomes.  I figured out with them that I could still pay their cell phone bills, their car insurance while still paying the mortgage, utilites, groceries, etc. They were both working part time and making car payments for themselves.  Both had received enough scholarship money to cover college, but I had been providing them with some gas and food money to help them.  (We lived in a small town that didn't have a college, so he was driving appox. 30 miles away to college 3 days a week.)  With just my income, I let them both know that I couldn't give them alot of extra money any longer, so they would need to budget gas and food money out of their paychecks.  They were both very understanding and said that it was not a problem and very willing to pitch in knowing I was doing everything I could.

So when the whole moving out thing came up with the FDIL and her Mother a couple of months later, I guess my mistake was assuming my Son would talk to her about how strained I was financially.  I did not feel the need to get into my personal finances with them.  Expecially her Mother, because I am going to be honest, IMO frankly it was none of FDIL Mother's business where my money was going.  I did explain to FDIL and her Mother that I was not financially able to support them moving out.  That I was maxed out on bills and support.  You are right, I did not sit down with FDIL and lay it out in front of her.  I had done that with my sons and didn't think to do it with her.  It might have helped, but at the time, they were just dating and I didn't feel the need to show her all my finances.

Knowing what I know now and that they ended up marrying later, it probably would have helped.

Luise and others,  This thread is actually helping me rethink of how I wanted to try and mend the relationship with the DIL and son.  I had thought about for a long time writing an email to my DIL and apologizing for some things I handled badly, and clearing up miscommunications.  But after reading this, I am thinking now that maybe that is not such a good idea.  I am sure without being to see facial expressions and hear tones, things could be misunderstood again.  I need to find a better way.

With that being said, I am with Luise and the others, I think a simple acknowledgement of receipt of the email would be appropriate, but I wouldn't respond.

It is no one's business how you handle your finances. If you choose not to fund something, that should be enough of a statement. Some people are just rude and self-centered!

Pooh, you should have hero status with your boys. {{{hugs}}}

Quote from: Pooh on May 24, 2010, 08:10:14 AM
Luise and others,  This thread is actually helping me rethink of how I wanted to try and mend the relationship with the DIL and son.  I had thought about for a long time writing an email to my DIL and apologizing for some things I handled badly, and clearing up miscommunication.  But after reading this, I am thinking now that maybe that is not such a good idea.  I am sure without being to see facial expressions and hear tones, things could be misunderstood again.  I need to find a better way.

With that being said, I am with Luise and the others, I think a simple acknowledgement of receipt of the email would be appropriate, but I wouldn't respond.

Pooh, seriously, don't write her anything ever....when you write things, you know how you mean them, however, when she reads them, she's going to misinterpret your words, believe me...I used to write poetry...and I've written letters...which people took wrong...when I wrote poetry I wrote how the spirit of God moved me, and do you know, some people actually thought I was writing about sex....?  I was so hurt...can't tell you....anyway...Pooh, if you want to talk to her, call her up and talk to her...don't be afraid...tell her that your very sorry she is taking things the way she is.  You see, she was raised a certain way and all the accusations she is making towards you are her expectations, but not how your are....she doesn't understand yet, that just because you think one way and she thinks another doesn't make you wrong and her right, it's all in what we believe to be our v3ery own personal culture. 

Therefore she has these expectations of you and she is wrong...

however, if you discuss this issue with her, make certain you don't say to her, "you did this or that".  Apologize to her for this whole thing happening and tell her you wish it were not this way, ask her what she thinks you can do to work this out....and when she tells you things, ask her if you can compromise....and do it this way or that way...but if you write her a letter, I can almost bet, she is going to misinterpret...what your saying and take it personal or as an attack against her.....and if you talk to her, listen to her to....don't be afraid or upset, be honest and forth right....explain to her, that you don't dislike her one bit...you dislike though, what is happening between the two of you....

I tell you true, the first letter I wrote my DIL many years ago, really really made it worse, I pulled the adult card, and talked to her as if she were my own child....that surely didn't sit well....and she was very offeneded and I would have been to if I were her. 

does that make sense?

Just thought of something while reading someone's post I'd like to share

I wish I could heal all your relationships...more then anything....I do....

This is to all of you gals who are hurting and have no idea what you have done to upset your DIL's or MIL's. 

And I do realize, everyone's situation is very different...

Please girls, don't be like me and let things go for 13 long years....muster up the courage and call them, and talk to them earnestly...telling them your so sorry this is happening between you and more then anything else, you'd like to make it better....maybe not all of the time, but I bet some of the time, you gals are going to get a very honest response....and you'll be able to work it out....

communication in any relationship is so essential....we women really do sometimes over react and blow things way out of porportion, and I think the unknown leaves a door open for just that...how many times have we said, "Oh, if I only knew what I did"
Ask her...I would be willing to bet, that 30% of your relationship, is due to miscommunication...

The fear of not knowing turns our minds into some dramatic movie...and we imagine all kinds of things...again, I realize this won't hold water in some of your situations, howe4ver, I never ever thought my DIL and I would be able to talk about this...I thought she hated me terrible, and it would never change....it nearly drove me up a wall...the pain was horrific..then one day, I said to myself...what do I have to loose?  Nothing...so, I tried but this time, let her know, I really wanted to work this out...and when we both realized, that we misinterpreted each other's feelings, my God...all these years, for what? 

Try it, what do you all have to loose, what is the worse that could happen?  Rejection again...sure, yes, they can reject you, but at least you would know you tried...and sometimes, when you talk to people personally, it's so much better, b/c they can hear the sincerity in your voice....or in person is even better....but don't be afraid....fear can do horrible things to any relationship....

hugs
Creme

Quote from: penstamen on May 24, 2010, 09:42:24 AM
It is no one's business how you handle your finances. If you choose not to fund something, that should be enough of a statement. Some people are just rude and self-centered!

Pooh, you should have hero status with your boys. {{{hugs}}}

totally agree with you Pen, it's nobody's business what anyone does with they're finances...

Thank you Pen and Creme.  You guys certainly make me feel better about decisions (of course I also know you would point out when I was totally wrong! Lol.  Which is what I love about this website.)

Creme, I know you are right.  I know it needs to be a face-to-face conversation.  I am not afraid to try to have that conversation with her.  I am not afraid of the actual conversation.  What I am afraid of, and this is just because of my past experiences with her, is that it will make the situation even worse.  She is very difficult to deal with and never sees anything other that what she wants.  I have a good feeling that no matter what I say, or do it will never be enough with her.  I have no intention of saying that it is her fault, but compromise is a word she does not know.  It is either her way or no way.  And I promise I am not saying that to be negative about her.  It is truly how she is. Right now, I am just keeping my distance and leaving it alone.  I still text my Son every couple of weeks with a simple, "Hey, You still alive?" and he will answer me eventually.  But, that's about it.  I am afraid if I try to talk to her about it, it will make it worse and I will not even get that. 

Quote from: Pooh on May 24, 2010, 10:39:14 AM
Thank you Pen and Creme.  You guys certainly make me feel better about decisions (of course I also know you would point out when I was totally wrong! Lol.  Which is what I love about this website.)

Creme, I know you are right.  I know it needs to be a face-to-face conversation.  I am not afraid to try to have that conversation with her.  I am not afraid of the actual conversation.  What I am afraid of, and this is just because of my past experiences with her, is that it will make the situation even worse.  She is very difficult to deal with and never sees anything other that what she wants.  I have a good feeling that no matter what I say, or do it will never be enough with her.  I have no intention of saying that it is her fault, but compromise is a word she does not know.  It is either her way or no way.  And I promise I am not saying that to be negative about her.  It is truly how she is. Right now, I am just keeping my distance and leaving it alone.  I still text my Son every couple of weeks with a simple, "Hey, You still alive?" and he will answer me eventually.  But, that's about it.  I am afraid if I try to talk to her about it, it will make it worse and I will not even get that.

ahhh, see that's the thing Pooh, everyone's situation is different...it's so tragic...I wish she wouldn't be like that...how old is she?

Maybe you said so before, but do you think your son realizes what is going on?  I mean, he has to right? 

Pooh,my Dil is the same way.No compromise....it's her way,or no way.I have a sister and BIL just like that too.My niece just told me last week,that she ended up paying for her own wedding,because her Mom,my sister,said she felt like if she was having to pay for it,she was going to have the wedding the way she wanted it. ???They are to narrow minded to see things in some one else's eye's.Thats the only thing i can figure out.

She is 23 Creme.  Yes my son realizes how she is.  I read on one of the other posts, and I don't remember which one now, about how some DILs set out to "cut him from the herd."  I truly think that is what she did.  She alienated him from his friends first by calling him 10 times an hour when he would be at their houses and one time even just showed up at a guys night (there was about 10 of them that would gather up at different houses every weekend and play Halo.)  His friends even asked me if I could not intervene and do something about her.  I tried to talk to my son about how his friends were getting upset that they couldn't ask him to do anything without her butting in.  His response was, "Well, she just cares about me."   Eventually, the friends quit inviting him.  Then she started doing it to our family.  If I was out with my sons shopping or anything, she would call 20 times.  If he went to play golf with his brother, dad and grandpa, she would call 20 times.  Then she went and took golf lessons and announced she was going with them from now on.

I am frustrated with my son, because I know he sees how she is and just goes along with anything she says.  I think when it comes to her, he would rather just do what she wants and avoid confrontation and her hissy fits.  And for that, our relationship has suffered because she does not want to come around me or my family at all, so they both stay away. 

Mominwaiting - sounds like her.  I truly think she wants to be the center of all his attention and to do that she thinks she has to cut away at anyone else that is close to him so he will depend on her for everything. 

And I should have added, that yes, we did include her in most things.  There were just some occasions that I wanted to take my sons out to lunch by ourselves, or their father wanted to go play golf with them etc....

This sounds so familiar! DIL can see her FOO whenever she wants, with or without DS. We rarely get to see DS w/o her, and since she doesn't like to visit, we rarely see him with her.

I'd forgotten about all the phone calls while they were dating - DS & I took a trip together and they were on the cell or Skyping the whole time. At first it was cute, then it got annoying.

Sorry Pen, I know how awful it feels.

Pooh,same thing happened to my sons friends also.He doesn't do any thing with them any more.
Even his best man in wedding.Just her family only,can he do things with.My son told me two or three years ago,she just wants me all to her self.He doesn't realize why.

Thanks, Pooh. I'm glad we can share our experiences here. MIW, that's so sad for all concerned. I never would have believed this could happen, but now I know better.

QuotePooh
She is 23 Creme.  Yes my son realizes how she is.  I read on one of the other posts, and I don't remember which one now, about how some DILs set out to "cut him from the herd."  I truly think that is what she did.  She alienated him from his friends first by calling him 10 times an hour when he would be at their houses and one time even just showed up at a guys night (there was about 10 of them that would gather up at different houses every weekend and play Halo.)  His friends even asked me if I could not intervene and do something about her.  I tried to talk to my son about how his friends were getting upset that they couldn't ask him to do anything without her butting in.  His response was, "Well, she just cares about me."   Eventually, the friends quit inviting him.  Then she started doing it to our family.  If I was out with my sons shopping or anything, she would call 20 times.  If he went to play golf with his brother, dad and grandpa, she would call 20 times.  Then she went and took golf lessons and announced she was going with them from now on.

I am frustrated with my son, because I know he sees how she is and just goes along with anything she says.  I think when it comes to her, he would rather just do what she wants and avoid confrontation and her hissy fits.  And for that, our relationship has suffered because she does not want to come around me or my family at all, so they both stay away. 

Pooh, I'm very sorry to say this, however, your DIL sounds like she is in great need of some help...
It also sounds like your son is not against you at all, but going along with her, to make his home peaceful as possible...which is wrong...I don't know why men don't see the bigger picture, which dicatates, peace at all costs is no peace at all...and he needs counseling as well, to learn how to deal with her...

I don't know your son, only you do, but personally, I don't see how a marriage like this can last? 

Are you able to sit your son down and talk to him?  And ask him to stop allowing her to erode the family....?  How long have they been married...? 

Your DIL cuts off his support network so she has full control and you need to explain this to your son, and to suggest he get professional help, b/c if the marriage fails...he needs to figure out why he chose so little?  In other words, why he deems this marriage normal?  It is not...and it is so not a love relationship...it is all about control and her way...at all costs....

I'm so so sorry your going thru this and for your son....

are there children yet?  I surely hope not...and maybe you already said, but I forgot...and if so, I do apologize...

Creme

No, I don't think that he is against me, yet.  I think he is just laying low to avoid the controversary.  I just feel as if this continues, eventually we will just completely fade from his life.  They dated for 2 years, got married last October and are purchasing their first house now near her Mother.  No children but I know they want them some day.

When they got engaged, I sat down with my son and asked him pointedly, "Why do you love her?  What does she provide you as a person? Etc. "  We had always been able to talk about anything so this was nothing new for us.  He told me that she made him feel very loved because she always wanted to be with him, and that it was very flattering to have someone that loved you that much.  That was pretty much his answer.  There wasn't much else.  I told him I understood how flattering that must be to have someone call you every 15 minutes and how that right now, that would make you feel very loved.  But I asked him to think about the future and that in a few years, not being able to do anything without her, or go anywhere with anyone without her constantly checking on him, was going to get tiring for him.  They both needed time with friends. I tried to do it gently without slamming her, but I am sure some of it came out sounding like I didn't want him to be with her.  Honestly, I didn't because I could see the things in her that were total opposite of him.  And I am sure, no matter how hard I was trying to be open and thinking I was doing a good job at being fair, that alot of what I said about her came out as exactly that.  I was trying to get him to reconsider marrying her.  Because, honestly, I was.  There was just so much about her that sent up red flags.

Now, my son is not blameless.  She is an intern for a large company making ALOT of money now, and when she graduates from college next year, will make even more.  He has one year of college left and she is already got him an interview at her company.  So they stand together to make a bunch of money.  I think he is seeing big houses, cars, vacations in his future with her.  They were raised middle class.  They never lacked for anything basic, but we didn't get to take many vacations and such with our incomes.  (I think I told you before his Father was a Police officer and I work for 911).  So as much as I hate to say it, and I didn't raise him this way, I think he has become blinded by the money out there.  And, I am sure she did make him feel very special with all the attention.

I also wanted to add, I am by no means perfect and make lots of mistakes just like anyone else.  But one thing my mother taught me and I have always tried to follow was to take a look at people and try to understand why they act the way they do.  My Mother said if you could try to understand why they are "who they are", then it was easier to accept their flaws and find a way to get along with them.

My DIL grew up in a household with a very, very controlling Mother.  Her Mother bosses her husband around like a slave to this day.  Her father is just a good old country boy.  Laid back and just takes it.  My DIL was also controlled by her Mother her entire life.  Still is.  Her Mother is still calling the shots and just talked her daughter into the house near her.  They had picked one that was about 30 miles away and closer to their school and work, but my DIL "changed their mind". So that is her role model and who taught her how to be a woman. 

Quote from: Pooh on May 25, 2010, 05:58:04 AM
No, I don't think that he is against me, yet.  I think he is just laying low to avoid the controversary.  I just feel as if this continues, eventually we will just completely fade from his life.  They dated for 2 years, got married last October and are purchasing their first house now near her Mother.  No children but I know they want them some day.

When they got engaged, I sat down with my son and asked him pointedly, "Why do you love her?  What does she provide you as a person? Etc. "  We had always been able to talk about anything so this was nothing new for us.  He told me that she made him feel very loved because she always wanted to be with him, and that it was very flattering to have someone that loved you that much.  That was pretty much his answer.  There wasn't much else.  I told him I understood how flattering that must be to have someone call you every 15 minutes and how that right now, that would make you feel very loved.  But I asked him to think about the future and that in a few years, not being able to do anything without her, or go anywhere with anyone without her constantly checking on him, was going to get tiring for him.  They both needed time with friends. I tried to do it gently without slamming her, but I am sure some of it came out sounding like I didn't want him to be with her.  Honestly, I didn't because I could see the things in her that were total opposite of him.  And I am sure, no matter how hard I was trying to be open and thinking I was doing a good job at being fair, that alot of what I said about her came out as exactly that.  I was trying to get him to reconsider marrying her.  Because, honestly, I was.  There was just so much about her that sent up red flags.

Now, my son is not blameless.  She is an intern for a large company making ALOT of money now, and when she graduates from college next year, will make even more.  He has one year of college left and she is already got him an interview at her company.  So they stand together to make a bunch of money.  I think he is seeing big houses, cars, vacations in his future with her.  They were raised middle class.  They never lacked for anything basic, but we didn't get to take many vacations and such with our incomes.  (I think I told you before his Father was a Police officer and I work for 911).  So as much as I hate to say it, and I didn't raise him this way, I think he has become blinded by the money out there.  And, I am sure she did make him feel very special with all the attention.

I don't know, perhaps others here feel that I'm wrong, but I see you having only two choices, which is maybe 3, however, it's more then having no choice, however, there will be consequences to each, as there always are...

You either ignore the whole situation and do without...

or

You talk to your son, explain the situation from your point of view...and then ask him what he could advise yout to do, to make things better....explain to him that it is very important you have a relationship with them, especially b/c someday there would be children...
or
you talk to him about going to counseling for both of them...and risk loosing him...
but honestly, they both are in dire need of counseling...what would make a man think, that this is normal behavior?  why would he settle for so little?  Not to mention, make his parents suffer for his choices?  And maybe you might want to ask him these questions yourself?

I'm wishing you the best...and sending love and hugs...

so sorry I couldn't be of more help...

Absolutely nothing to be sorry about.  You are a great help.  You offer great insight, advice and suggestions.  I guess right now I have been doing your first suggestion.  Trying to just let it lie and see what happens.  Not be intrusive and thinking if I am not, he will come back around.  I am in "just ignore" stage and hope for the best.  May come back to bite me in the butt, but knowing that at this moment in time, my DIL doesn't see that she is doing anything wrong, I think trying to talk to him about it will make it worse.

I will give you another example of how I thought we were doing the right thing, but DIL turned it around on me.  Their wedding was held at my Mother's house (they have a beautiful, country log home in the mountains).  I offered to do the reception and asked FDIL what she would like.  She wanted to have a cookout.  She wanted something casual because she invited around 60 people to rehearsal (don't ask).  So that was fine and she said she didn't have anything particular she wanted.  So I purchased everything, decorated the tables in her theme (it was a fall wedding) and put it all together.  When the time came, myself and my fiance' at the time, spent the entire rehearsal dinner in front of the grill cooking hamburgers and hotdogs.  We thought we were doing the right thing so that they could enjoy their time with the families and friends.  At the end of the evening, her mother and her both came to us and my FDIL said, "Well I guess this worked out great for you.  You found a way to not have to spend any time with my family tonight", and stomped off.  I followed her and said, "I am sorry you feel that way.  That was not my intention.  I just wanted you to not have to worry about anything."  She just rolled her eyes, said "Whatever" and her mother was smirking at me the whole time.  The next day after the wedding, she handed out gift bags to everyone to thank them for helping them.  Her bridal party, her flower girls and ring bearer, the ladies that helped decorate and her friends that had helped.  She even gave my mother one for letting them use her house.  She just looked at me and walked off.  Now, I didn't expect nor need one, but it was hurtful.

Thank you for your continued advice and support.

QuotePooh link
Absolutely nothing to be sorry about.  You are a great help.  You offer great insight, advice and suggestions.  I guess right now I have been doing your first suggestion.  Trying to just let it lie and see what happens.  Not be intrusive and thinking if I am not, he will come back around.  I am in "just ignore" stage and hope for the best.  May come back to bite me in the butt, but knowing that at this moment in time, my DIL doesn't see that she is doing anything wrong, I think trying to talk to him about it will make it worse.

I will give you another example of how I thought we were doing the right thing, but DIL turned it around on me.  Their wedding was held at my Mother's house (they have a beautiful, country log home in the mountains).  I offered to do the reception and asked FDIL what she would like.  She wanted to have a cookout.  She wanted something casual because she invited around 60 people to rehearsal (don't ask).  So that was fine and she said she didn't have anything particular she wanted.  So I purchased everything, decorated the tables in her theme (it was a fall wedding) and put it all together.  When the time came, myself and my fiance' at the time, spent the entire rehearsal dinner in front of the grill cooking hamburgers and hotdogs.  We thought we were doing the right thing so that they could enjoy their time with the families and friends.  At the end of the evening, her mother and her both came to us and my FDIL said, "Well I guess this worked out great for you.  You found a way to not have to spend any time with my family tonight", and stomped off.  I followed her and said, "I am sorry you feel that way.  That was not my intention.  I just wanted you to not have to worry about anything."  She just rolled her eyes, said "Whatever" and her mother was smirking at me the whole time.  The next day after the wedding, she handed out gift bags to everyone to thank them for helping them.  Her bridal party, her flower girls and ring bearer, the ladies that helped decorate and her friends that had helped.  She even gave my mother one for letting them use her house.  She just looked at me and walked off.  Now, I didn't expect nor need one, but it was hurtful.

Sheesh, it sounds to me as this is learned behavior inherited from her mother...I can certianly understand the hurt your experiencing...they both sound very self imposted...and by the way, you did the right thing at the reception...they are just ungreatful and can't see past they're own noses...self imposed and selfish...you should have asked her who would have done the cooking?  Yanno, no matter what you would have done, they would have been miserable to you...and how dare they talk to you like that?  Such disrespect?  I really really don't get it....but it seems to me, like your doing the best thing possible, besides, you know your son better then I do....I know a woman at work that thinks her entire purpose in life is to worry....anything that happens to her is the most God awful thing on earth, and she takes it way beyond the normal...she to is very self imposed...has no children...so she doesn't know what it's like to sacrifice and put others before the self...to be aware of the feelings of others...simply put, it's all about her...she upsets the whole of the group constantly....again and again....



Thank you for your continued advice and support.

Sheesh, I don't believe I've offered much...and it's difficult to know how to express, b/c I don't really know these people...however, I do hope the future brings you all what you deserve, presently, this is not what anyone deserves...and you were very compassionate and kind to do what you did for they're wedding....

Hugs
creme

I just realized I said "reception" first.  It was the rehearsal dinner.  Thanks again Creme.

Please don't reply through email as it'll be used against you in the future! It's best to have a face to face conversation and if not possible, then by phone. Don't give up your values and ethics because dil has having a temper tantram.  I'm not suggesting you don't respond to her nasty email...there are other ways to deal with this "child". Please give yourself time before responding to this situation and stand in your own power with grace. Dil is attempting to get the upper hand  so don't give it to her... It's my opinion only and I wish you the very best outcome! XO

Quote from: Pooh on May 25, 2010, 05:58:04 AM
No, I don't think that he is against me, yet.  I think he is just laying low to avoid the controversary.  I just feel as if this continues, eventually we will just completely fade from his life.  They dated for 2 years, got married last October and are purchasing their first house now near her Mother.  No children but I know they want them some day.

When they got engaged, I sat down with my son and asked him pointedly, "Why do you love her?  What does she provide you as a person? Etc. "  We had always been able to talk about anything so this was nothing new for us.  He told me that she made him feel very loved because she always wanted to be with him, and that it was very flattering to have someone that loved you that much.  That was pretty much his answer.  There wasn't much else.  I told him I understood how flattering that must be to have someone call you every 15 minutes and how that right now, that would make you feel very loved.  But I asked him to think about the future and that in a few years, not being able to do anything without her, or go anywhere with anyone without her constantly checking on him, was going to get tiring for him.  They both needed time with friends. I tried to do it gently without slamming her, but I am sure some of it came out sounding like I didn't want him to be with her.  Honestly, I didn't because I could see the things in her that were total opposite of him.  And I am sure, no matter how hard I was trying to be open and thinking I was doing a good job at being fair, that alot of what I said about her came out as exactly that.  I was trying to get him to reconsider marrying her.  Because, honestly, I was.  There was just so much about her that sent up red flags.

Now, my son is not blameless.  She is an intern for a large company making ALOT of money now, and when she graduates from college next year, will make even more.  He has one year of college left and she is already got him an interview at her company.  So they stand together to make a bunch of money.  I think he is seeing big houses, cars, vacations in his future with her.  They were raised middle class.  They never lacked for anything basic, but we didn't get to take many vacations and such with our incomes.  (I think I told you before his Father was a Police officer and I work for 911).  So as much as I hate to say it, and I didn't raise him this way, I think he has become blinded by the money out there.  And, I am sure she did make him feel very special with all the attention.

Pooh, my DS is blinded by bling and flattery too, but he's beginning to feel the shackles not only from DIL but from her FOO. As long as I can see that spark of resistance I feel there's hope. There's no way I can compete with their money, though...I'm learning some personal strategies on this site to cope with what might be a total loss of my relationship with DS, just in case.

And I agree with WomenRule and others who suggest putting nothing in writing. Best wishes.

Quote from: Pooh on May 24, 2010, 01:44:49 PM
  She alienated him from his friends first by calling him 10 times an hour when he would be at their houses and one time even just showed up at a guys night (there was about 10 of them that would gather up at different houses every weekend and play Halo.) ...  If he went to play golf with his brother, dad and grandpa, she would call 20 times.  Then she went and took golf lessons and announced she was going with them from now on.

Actually, in this case I'm on your DIL's side.  Your son has no business going out EVERY weekend playing Halo with his friends; occasionally yes, but every weekend is just too much.  And add in that he's also going shopping with his mom and playing golf with his dad and brothers--well then, when is he spending time with her?  Fun time, not household chores and work and making dinner.  She made an effort to learn his interests when she learned golf, that's a positive thing. 

Being married is not the same as being single; he should be spending the fun times of his life with her, not with his boyhood friends and his family.  On occasion yes, but not every weekend.  I feel sorry for her.

Food for thought, Gram...food for thought!

I think I would respond; I know it's a minefield and everyone is touchy right now, but I agree with Scoop that this is repairable--she's BEGGING for a relationship between you and the children.  And she sent an email, which is her preferred way of communication.  It's got it's bad points, and it's good points; nevertheless it's how she wants to communicate.  And frankly can things get much worse?

Put a lot of kindness into it and respond to everything.  She took the time to write it, so show you have taken the time to read and consider it.

Quote from: saddened by it all on May 21, 2010, 08:40:59 AM

This is the email my DIL sent to me. It is all I can do to even read it.  The facts she stated are not correct. We didn't hang up on her.
[My comment: 'hanging up' on someone can be defined in different ways.  If you said abruptly, "I can't talk anymore, good-bye", click, and hung up without letting her respond, she has a legitimate case for saying you hung up on her and you have a legitimate case for saying you didn't.  Generally, both parties get to say their good byes.  You admit you were upset and abrupt and it very likely came off as rude.]

We have spent 2 Christmas' there, I have photos! [This is good!]

Her trying to make us a family is all about her always trying to control us.
[Don't go there, it can profit you nothing, is probably untrue, will only make you unhappy; will certainly make her and your son unhappy. It's an odd comment, how is being a family about controling you?  Do you feel smothered, do you not want much contact with them?  So you assume that since you are older, all the effort should be on the younger generation and none of you?  I find it a strange comment,]

She never stays at our home when she comes to visit her friends. [This is not a big deal. She's more comfortable with her friends; if she were more comfortable with you, likely they would stay with you.]

She has never called us just to say hello or how are you.
[Be honest; how often does your son pick up the phone and just call his motherinlaw to say, "howdy, how are you all doing, just calling to see how your day went?"  I'm guessing not once.  He's probably perfectly lovely when he picks up the phone and they are on the other line and asks about them, but probably he's never just called to chit chat.  So why expect her to?  And it sounds like she'd welcome calls from you.] 

In fact she NEVER calls here ever.  My son used to but not anymore. He is stuck in the middle.
[You are assuming you know why your son doesn't call.  He may be busy, or he may not want to.  Nobody is ever 'stuck in the middle'.   That he doesn't call may mean that he isn't stuck in the middle, but that he's taken a side.  Who knows?  But it's dangerous for you to assume you know why another adult does what she or he does.]

I so want to reply to this, but am also just letting things cool down.  Has anyone had any experience with this?   [I think it's wise to let things cool down, but don't wait too long.  It might be wise to send a short polite note—but she might feel dismissed.  Or you can send a longer note and risk offending further.  Or not reply at all, and risk offending her and making her feel dismissed.  Or try to take it on a more personal level, the phone, but risk getting stirred up and causing more trouble.]

This is how **I** would answer.  But I want to stress it's only me and my experiences with people and younger people and my own comfort with risk and my limited understanding of your situation.  No one can tell you definitively how you should respond, because no one here knows the whole story , what hasn't been said, what previous hurts are feeding into this and because no one else will face the consequences, good or bad.  You are going to have to go with your gut.

But here's an alternative suggestion.

The crazy thing about the two of you is you can't even talk and work things out.  [I would love to work things out, and maybe I'm not good at talking.  Thank you for giving me another chance; maybe we can find more understanding and empathy for one another through the written word.  It might be a clearer way to resolve our differences.  I appreciate you reaching out again and trying.]

You hung up on me March 25th and now you both do on May 17th. [I am sorry I hung up on you in March and in May.  I may have been too abrupt. I should have given you an opportunity to say good bye properly.  I was upset and need to govern my actions more calmly when I'm upset.  I do not wish to be rude to you; I regret it and hope you will forgive me, and I will be more considerate in how I end phone calls in the future, even when I'm upset.  Neither of us deserves rudeness.]

You are both unbelievable.  I don't know how you do it but how dare you make my husband feel guilty for the kind of son he is. 
[Note to poster:  this is the most interesting part of her email, IMHO.  While it is really not her business how you treat your own son, it does affect her if you are hurting her husband, making him feel bad, trying to guilt him into compliance.   If you are using guilt to try to get your son to do what you want, you are playing a very dangerous game.  You will likely win a battle or two, but eventually you will lose the war.  This works on the young, but breeds resentment, and truthfully, the older your son gets, the less likely it will work.  If you use guilt to manipulate your son, it may be why he doesn't call anymore.  No one signs up for guilt trips. No one enjoys feeling guilty.  You do NOT want your son to associate you with guilt; this will backfire.  Not saying you use guilt, but if you do, you will be sorry eventually.  While it's not her business, I would acknowledge her statement with something like, "I am saddened and appalled that my son feels guilty about me.  I will have to think about this; it didn't occur to me I was having that affect on him.  Thank you for bringing this problem to my attention." If indeed you use guilt as a weapon, it will only win you points to admit it (just as you win a point every time you say thank you to her).  If you do use guilt, add something like, "I have used guilt in the past, and am not proud of it.  I feel helpless and am behaving in ways I myself don't admire.  I will speak with my son about this. I owe him an apology."]

My husband the most amazing person I have ever met. He is the most amazing father, husband, grandson, friend, employer and employee. 
[I agree, when I think of what a fine man he's grown to become, it takes my breath away. ]   

I think it is amazing what we he has done with his life with the type of guidance he has had.
[Note: there's clearly an issue here, and your DIL is not making it up in her head.  The only way she knows what 'type of guidance' your son has had, is because he's told her unflattering things about his growing up and your parenting.  Quite frankly, everyone of our children have these stories,  mine included, and you might as well 'fess up to them.  We have all had parenting days we regret and have all made bad parenting decisions.  What likely happened, and I'm just guessing, is you son has told her some stories that hurt him growing up and she, loving him and likely to have been exposed to a different set of parental incompetencies, is indignant on his behalf.  Her parents never did that to her!!!!  (but they did other things wrong, guaranteed).  Your son sees her indignation, realizes her parents/other parents handle the issue differently (but doesn't realized those other parents messed up in other areas you excelled at) and got indignant too.  This attitude is pure arrogance on her part—especially as she doesn't have grown children who are capable of criticizing her parenting yet and doesn't have a clue as to what she's talking about.  It would not be a bad idea to take a big breath and admit that you were not always the parent you hoped to be, that you intended to be.  It saddens your heart that you in any way caused your son unhappiness, and you would like to hear what he has to say about this.  And you agree he is the most amazing father, husband grandson, friend, employer, employee, AND son (notice how she left that out)]

The way you spoke to him tonight is completely unacceptable.  You both put yourself in this position...NO ONE ElSE!!!!
[You need to be honest here, if you were nasty to your son, you need to own up to it and apologize.  Being upset only goes so far as an explanation, it's not an excuse to be nasty.  It sounds like your DIL wrote this email shortly after you 'hung up on her' and with your words ringing in her ears.  If those words were unkind, own it and apologize.  As to what 'position' you are in, can you elaborate?  Are you in the position of feeling neglected, left out, and disliked?  What position is she referring to?  If you don't know, ignore this line.  If you do know, admit that you are in an comfortable position, have painted yourself into a corner and ask her how you can fix it.  What do you have to lose?]

It is amazing to me that you think it is acceptable for a good grandparent to call once every two months. [This is wonderful, tell her you'd love to call more often, but don't want to impose.  Would once a week be too often; you'd love to call once a week!  How long should the call be, you don't want to be a bother.  Would half hour once a week be okay?  Or every other week?  Please let you know, you feel wonderful and grateful that she would encourage phone calls. Thank you (remember you get a point for every time you can thank her)].

  The best part of this all is when you hung up on me March 25th you made it very clear to let me know you have two sons. 
[I'm assuming you said something to the effect that you have two sons but it feels like you only have one?  I'm going to take the worse case possible here: that you are being needy and whiny about how much attention your son her husband is showing you.  Neediness pushes people away; it's ironic that when we express how much we need attention, we end up getting less of it.  I'm not saying you have been acting needy here, just that this comment of hers along with the comment about making him feel guilty, suggests it.  If it's not the case, ignore the following.  But if you have been needy and pushy and using guilt, own up to it.  Generally other people recognize it in us before we see it in ourselves; we are caught with the chocolate on our faces and it's hard to repair because once people have been subjected to neediness, they put up thick defenses.  It's smothering and a bit scary to be the object of someone else's neediness.  Own up to it and say upon reflection you realize you've been acting needy.  If you can figure out a reason for it, state what the reason is (show insight), if you don't know, you can say you are having trouble adjusting to the change in family structure, and are going to consider talking to someone about it.  In any case, for you own benefit, look up neediness on the internet and see if it applies to you.  If it doesn't, freely ignore everything I've written.]

The funny thing you forgot is you have 5 grandkids.  I have sent at least 6 sets of pictures and you have not responded to one. 
[If this is true, apologize for your rudeness and oversight and tell her now how much you appreciate them.  Thank her for them.  Discuss the pictures and how cute they were.  She thought they were cute and shared them with you.  This is something you can use to build a bridge of empathy with.] 

Yet on facebook you talk about all your other grandkids and comment on how cute they are.
[The previous poster who said you should use as an excuse for this is brilliant.  Say you withheld mentioning them and posting their pictures because you were reluctant without parental permission.  You'd love to brag about her children too.  If she gives permission, post her children's pictures and brag about them every bit as much as the other grandchildren.  Parents are sensitive to slights to their children.  Worse yet, children themselves are sensitive to it.  You must never ever show favoritism, display the same about of pictures of all grandchildren on the walls, notice their celebrations with the same level of gifts and attention, etc...]

Since the day I have met your son it is ALWAYS us going out of our way to be part of your family.  When you lived 10 minutes from us it was ALWAYS us planning the family dinners or stopping by or asking you guys over.  It was us that always got everyone together for holiday birthdays and more.
[A rule of thumb in life is 'always' and 'never' are almost always inaccurate.  In fact, later in her email, she likely contradicts this statement when she says the first Christmas after they moved they flew back to your house for Christmas and implies it was at your wish...which means you very likely initiated that event.  However, <heavy sigh> she's not interested in facts, she's telling you that she feels like they've made all the effort...and she's telling you that they don't feel like they are important to you—and that's the real truth of her statement.  Speak to that hurt.  And do some soul searching.  Is that true?  Have they done the majority of initiating social contact?  And why is that?  Do you feel shy inviting them or awkward in their company?  Are you less socialable (this is tricky, because people have different social needs: introverts are drained by too much socializing, extroverts thrive on it.  If you are an introvert, you may find yourself often on the defensive (I'm an introvert), and if that's the case, explain that carefully.  If you socialize often, just not with them when they lived near, you do need to come up with a reason.  Your DIL is telling you that she wants more contact with you, and you need to negotiate a level of contact and intimacy that you can both live with.  It may be that you have also noticed that your expectations or social needs are different and are hurtful but you are not sure why, only that there are mismatched needs that don't indicate level of love or acceptance, but only reflect personal preferences or problems. If you aren't sure what the problem is, say so.  But I think you need to address this issue.  She says in several different ways in this email: we feel like we are less, we feel unimportant, we feel second class—and if you ignore the issue, or don't respond to her email, you will intensify this feeling.  Be careful of the feeling—if it is the truth—that you want to see more of your son and grandchildren, and less of her.  I think it's a natural reaction to a difficult relationship, but it's one she will pick up on and be offended about.  It's a puzzling problem: you complain she never calls you, she complains you never visit and never call her.  You clearly both want to connect; and you both clearly feel disconnected.  So what's the real problem here?  It's essential to answer this.]

Since we have moved it is us mostly going out of our way and how often do the two of you visit.  My husband works so hard and we have kids with events and I work and part of the school system.  For you to travel here definitely makes more sense but I forgot it is just your grandkids. [Again she's telling you, they feel unimportant to you.  And here you have differing problems: she has no time to travel, and you have no money.  It's important to let them know that it's only the lack of money that prevents you from visiting, not lack of interest.]

As I stated  4 ½ years ago, you and I had a conversation where you promised you would change and make a point to be a family.  I promised to be here with open arms and give you a chance to change....well you failed.
[This is an interesting couple of sentences also.  What was this conversation  years ago?  Why and how did you promise to change?  These sentences seem to imply that you have acknowledged in the past that you didn't make efforts for the family.  Is she right you did not keep your promises?  If so, you need to acknowledge that you failed and why.  It may be that you just are not as family oriented as she is or wants you to be.  You have the right to be what you are, and some people are not particularly family or children oriented.  There is no shame in this, but it's important to be honest.  She's accusing you of breaking your promises, and you need to address the issue head on; it won't go away, and she's not going to forget.  She wants something from you; do you know what it is (and don't be dismissive and bitter saying things like, she just wants to lead me around by the nose) and you want something from her, can you be clear and concise? (not I just want everyone to get along).   Maybe you don't want much from her, just your son and grandson.  Maybe you want exactly what she wants.  The point is, there's this vagueness as to what everyone's expectations are.  You need to know.  Maybe it's something as simple as you want the same level of contact but each want the other to intiate.]

Your granddaughter barely knows who you guys are and that is only your fault because she knows who GG is and her Aunt.  You have two of the most amazing loving grandchildren I have ever met who would love you day in and out and actually do.  When you are around them you are great with them it just amazes me that you are fine with seeing them and talking to them the amount that you only do.
[Again she's telling you, she and her family feel neglected. And she's telling you, pay attention to us, we are worth it!  Please acknowledge that they are wonderful.  She is hurt that you don't seem, from where she stands, to care about her beautiful children.  And she gave you a wonderful compliment, that you are a great grandmother.  Thank her for saying that.]

When we first moved here it was soooo important that you had your first Christmas in your house.   Four days after we moved into our house we made sure we flew there for that.
[I am amazed that she would do this for you.  That was a real labor of love.  I don't know that I'd do that for my own mother on her death bed.  Please recognize that whatever else you may feel about her, she did this for you because you wanted it and it was at great inconvience to herself.  You can never say she didn't try to please you.]

You both have NEVER been here for a holiday even though we invite you every year...but don't worry we understand what is important.
[Ignore the snarky comment, she's just unscoring yet again, that they feel unloved and unwanted and unimportant.  That's why you MUST address the issue if you want to repair the relationship.  She feels it very strongly, and she got that feeling from something (no, she was not born with it.  It's related to how you and your husband have acted—not that I'm saying you have acted with malice, only that there is a strong misunderstanding and hurt).  I think it's okay to attach some of those pictures you have of the two Christmases you spent at their home and say that you do not understand that statement, your memory is that you were there in 200X and 200Y and had a lovely time and treasure these pictures and would love to visit again during the holidays, but are limited by finances.]

I for 14 years have worked hard to make sure we were all a family.  I knew you had no girls so when I was getting married I made sure you were part of the dress selection.  I have always tried to make you both part of our life.  [This is very kind of her, thank her for it].

I have always made sure the kids call and do stuff but I have to say I am DONE.  Every few months you both do something to disappoint me by the type of parent or grandparent you are.  I only get more upset by the things I do.  [What are some of the things you are doing that disappoint her.  I'm not saying they are wrong or that you should stop doing them, only do you understand what she considers disappointments.  I'm thinking from her email she considers not calling the grandchildren a disappointment.  Laying a guilt trip on her husband a disappointment. Not thanking her for sending pictures a disappointment.  Writing about your other grandchildren but not those by her is a disappointment.  What else?  It's important that you know and address the issues, because she's clear that she's at her limit; and while you may not appreciate what she's doing for you, you may miss it if she stops.  And you may not care anything about her, but only about what your son thinks, and yet, it's clear that he shares her feelings to a certain extent.  Remember it's his kids' pictures you are not thanking him for, his kids activities you aren't sharing with your friends on Facebook, his kids you aren't calling but every other month.]

It is funny you know since the day of our son's birth you have always gotten me a mothers day card but not this one. 
[Is it true, this is the first Mday you haven't sent her a card?  Not that you owe her one, she's not your mother, but if you always sent one until this year, what makes this year different?  If it's a passive aggressive move on your part to show her how little you think of her, I think you made a mistake.  She cares about things like that, and if you can't visit and don't make calls, and don't thank her for pictures of the kids, and now won't even send a card, she's right to think you are being unfriendly. If you are being childish, admit it and apologize.]
I know I am an awful daughter in law by helping my husband and grammie make there wishes come true and have her be here for a couple months to spend amazing time with her great grandkids, and grandkids.  I was in shock that day you were able to make it about you and cause an argument at a time like this but I have learned that is who you are. 
[Grammie gets to decide where grammie wants to be.  You should not be making a fuss about it.  I assume this is not even your mother.  But if it is, it's grammie's decision.  You should not involve yourself in arguments about her.  It would do you well to apologize for it. I'm assuming they did not kidnap gremmie in the middle of the night and are not holding her there against her will.]
In the last few months I have sent numerous pictures of the children and events with not ONE response so that to me shows that you do not care.  Why should I keep sending you pictures there is not one response.
[I think that's a legitimate question.  Perhaps you do not want pictures? If they are unwelcome, you should tell her that.  If they are welcomed, you should thank her every time.  It takes more effort for her to send them than for you to telephone or email your thanks]  I was taught and raised with family members when you get a gift and cards you pick up the phone and call and say thank you kind of a personal thing to do.  Funny I don't think that is how you raised your family so I thought I would play by your rules...how does it feel? [I'm not sure I understand the 'how does it feel' comment unless you sent her something, she didn't thank you and you complained.  It's such a small thing for family harmony to thank someone for their trouble and generosity; unless you don't want the items and attention, then say so.]

Last it is funny that you hung up on me the truth must hurt sometimes.  It is about my kids 100% and that is why I am done.  I am not going to have you treat my children the way that your son was treated.  When my kids graduate college I expect the people that love him to be there.  When special moments are part of their life I expect them to be there.
[Again and again she tells you they do not feel important to you.  This is your responsibility.  You can probably think of things you can do that will alleviate this very sad feeling.  If you cannot, ask.  Ask straight out, "I have the feeling that you don't feel loved and valued by us.  What are the things we can do to show you we care."  If they list ten things do them, why not?  If you cannot because you cannot afford them, say "We can't afford to visit at Christmas, but we can skype or web cam."  And then do the other things on the list.  Unless you really don't care, in which case, it's only kindness to say gently that you are not comfortable or interested in the same level of family involvement she is, but you are comfortable with 3 calls a year and one visit every 5 years.  It may hurt a bit at first, but it will adjust her expectations to what she can reasonably look forward from you.]

And when you tell my son you are going to be at one of his basketball games(yes you did and he keeps asking when) I expect you to keep your word.  [This is a legitimate complaint of her part.  You should keep your promises to children.  And if it was a misunderstanding, if you said, "I'd like to come to one of your games" and he thought it meant you would come, you need to straighten that out with him.   And maybe send him a camera so he can have a friend take pictures of him playing basketball and you put them up on Facebook for everyone to see.]

It is about my husband to because I care for him and love him and think the world of him so NO ONE is going to treat him how you did tonight.  Funny if you think about it you did the same tonight.  [Again I'm not sure what you said to your son just before DIL wrote this email, but it had a very negative effect, and you need to fix it. ]

You can be part of my kids life but it will be with you making the effort.  It needs to be two ways and you need to earn my trust and faith back if you think I am going to participate. [The ball is in your court and IMO if you ignore this email, you are going to lose big time; she has had it.]

I am an amazing person, mom, daughter, friend and have been the most amazing daughter in law but I am done being used. [I think you should acknowledge that she is an amazing person.  And I think it would be a wonderful healing thing if you even expanded on it and give instances of how you have noticed the wonderful things she has done and how amazing she is.] 

My own family has never hung up on me or speak to me the way the two of you have. [Apologize for being rude].

I would like to end this by saying my parents raised me with lots of values and lessons.  One important is to always let people in and to forgive with open arms.  I will always make sure you are part of my childrens life but I will not go out of my way for a long time that trust and guarantee will need to be earned back.
[I'm not sure what she means by guarantee, but she's pretty exasperated, and is just about done until you respond.  Of course, you don't have to respond, but think about what that would mean.  Are you ready for less than what you have right now from your son and DIL?]

Quote from: MagicGram on June 01, 2010, 01:55:01 PM

Quote from: Pooh on May 24, 2010, 01:44:49 PM
  She alienated him from his friends first by calling him 10 times an hour when he would be at their houses and one time even just showed up at a guys night (there was about 10 of them that would gather up at different houses every weekend and play Halo.) ...  If he went to play golf with his brother, dad and grandpa, she would call 20 times.  Then she went and took golf lessons and announced she was going with them from now on.

Actually, in this case I'm on your DIL's side.  Your son has no business going out EVERY weekend playing Halo with his friends; occasionally yes, but every weekend is just too much.  And add in that he's also going shopping with his mom and playing golf with his dad and brothers--well then, when is he spending time with her?  Fun time, not household chores and work and making dinner.  She made an effort to learn his interests when she learned golf, that's a positive thing. 

Being married is not the same as being single; he should be spending the fun times of his life with her, not with his boyhood friends and his family.  On occasion yes, but not every weekend.  I feel sorry for her.

You are correct MG that he should be spending fun times with her.  And he always did.  He would spend every evening with her until about ten oclock and all day Sunday. (6 of 7 days).  Saturdays, he kept up the tradition of spending time with family during the day (golf, shopping, house projects, etc.) and then in the evenings, they would switch around to different homes and play Halo.  There were about 5 households that took turns hosting them, fixing a big pot of chili or something and letting them play for the evening (all High School age boys).  This was during the time they were dating and he was still in High School, not now that they are married. 

I totally agree with you that during the wedding plans and marriage that he should devote most of spare time to her.  And just the occasional outing with friends or family would be appropriate.  I was just giving some background on how she was very controlling, even when they were teenagers and just dating.  Now that they are married, his friends are gone from the picture because of the scenes when they were dating.  And although she is included in all family invitations 98% of the time, the men in the family have stopped asking him to go do a "guys" outing (golf, fishing, etc.)because she pitches a fit if she can't go. 

And I am not putting all the blame on her.  I blame my son for cutting all his ties with friends, his brother and most of the family.  It was his choice to make. 

Thank you for your response and I appreciate your insight.

Also, I am a firm believer that even after marriage, Men need "guy" time and Women need "girl" time every once in awhile.  I love my time with my girlfriends and Mom just getting our nails done, shopping, or a dinner out just as much as my husband loves his "guy" time riding roadbikes or going to the range.  My husband and I get along very well and enjoy each other's company very much, but still need interaction outside of the marriage.  What was that old song?  How can I miss you if you never go away?  Hee hee.

Yup, for me it's a survival technique! When Val and I married 21 years ago, I told him I liked to go on RV retreats with my sort of daughter. I didn't want my marriage to become my identity. He happily agreed... probably because before we married he would have agreed to anything!  ;D ;D

Then the first time we went, he had an identity crisis!  :'( But we worked though it to our mutual advantage.

Love the saying "survival technique".  My hubby is great about letting me be an individual.  We both would go every once in a while with friends and do something for a few hours.  But then I had to go out of town for a week for a work conference and I thought he was going to have a heart attack.  He said later that he never would have dreamed that he would worry so much about someone and it was the worse week of his life.  His words were, "I am having withdrawals."  Not that he would even suggest I didn't go, but it was nice to know he missed me that much.

Yeah, that's what Val did the first time we went. He told me he wandered from room to room just like he did right after his first wife died. He ever said..."I felt like a widower again..." But then he added... "...and I decided I needed to get a life!'  8)

(P.S. - Some guys think "get a life" freely translated is "get a wife!"  ;D ;D ;D

Oh bless his heart.  What a good man!

Quote from: Pooh on May 25, 2010, 06:40:04 AM
Absolutely nothing to be sorry about.  You are a great help.  You offer great insight, advice and suggestions.  I guess right now I have been doing your first suggestion.  Trying to just let it lie and see what happens.  Not be intrusive and thinking if I am not, he will come back around.  I am in "just ignore" stage and hope for the best.  May come back to bite me in the butt, but knowing that at this moment in time, my DIL doesn't see that she is doing anything wrong, I think trying to talk to him about it will make it worse.

I will give you another example of how I thought we were doing the right thing, but DIL turned it around on me.  Their wedding was held at my Mother's house (they have a beautiful, country log home in the mountains).  I offered to do the reception and asked FDIL what she would like.  She wanted to have a cookout.  She wanted something casual because she invited around 60 people to rehearsal (don't ask).  So that was fine and she said she didn't have anything particular she wanted.  So I purchased everything, decorated the tables in her theme (it was a fall wedding) and put it all together.  When the time came, myself and my fiance' at the time, spent the entire rehearsal dinner in front of the grill cooking hamburgers and hotdogs.  We thought we were doing the right thing so that they could enjoy their time with the families and friends.  At the end of the evening, her mother and her both came to us and my FDIL said, "Well I guess this worked out great for you.  You found a way to not have to spend any time with my family tonight", and stomped off.  I followed her and said, "I am sorry you feel that way.  That was not my intention.  I just wanted you to not have to worry about anything."  She just rolled her eyes, said "Whatever" and her mother was smirking at me the whole time.  The next day after the wedding, she handed out gift bags to everyone to thank them for helping them.  Her bridal party, her flower girls and ring bearer, the ladies that helped decorate and her friends that had helped.  She even gave my mother one for letting them use her house.  She just looked at me and walked off.  Now, I didn't expect nor need one, but it was hurtful.

Thank you for your continued advice and support.

Ha, that last part about her not giving you a gift reminded me of my DIL at our rehearsal dinner.  We had a lot of miscommunication leading up to the wedding.  For example, one night she went off the deep end because I had taken one of the invitations and changed it without telling her.  She had called her parents and told them how horrible I was, etc., etc.  My son called me in a tizz and asked me to apologize.  I told him, "Uh, remmber, I did tell you I was taking that invitation to change it because I noticed I messed up and provided you with the wrong address.  Why else would I just take something like that?"  There was a big silence and he said, "Oh, mom, I'm so sorry.  I forgot."  Then he told her and she still never apologized to me or anything.  At any rate, fast forward to the rehearsal dinner and they had gifts for everyone except me.  My son came and apologized and said she had added a gift for her mother at the last minute about an hour before the rehearsal, so he hadn't known and he hadn't had time to get me anything.  I told him that was fine, but I had put the rehearsal dinner together and done everything they'd asked during the run up to the wedding - and I was humiliated when she passed out the gifts and acknowledged everyone - except me.  It was indeed, very hurtful.

Bless your heart...yep similar stories.  I could care less about gifts or material items, a simple thank you would have been just fine.  I am with everyone else, I can't even begin to imagine being that rude and thoughtless to someone.