trying to cope

[cremebrulee]

Glitter If she felt that way, then  you DID back her into a corner.  I would totally be offended to be summoned to a family meeting when it wasn't my family.  And, even if it was...I would be offended to be summoned to a meeting as if I were a child.  As an adult I do NOT answer to my parents.  They are no longer in charge of my life.  I am.

Glitter....it's not about Answering to your family...it's about communicating to each other your feelings and why you feel that way....I do get why your saying this, b/c I do feel her DIL felt like you do....however, I cannot speak for Erma, but as for me, no matter who it is...I want to sit down and communicate to each other where we might have hurt each other or what we might have said that set us off on the wrong foot...doesn't make anyone right or wrong...and, after being to counseling, and reading, that the reason two people get off on the wrong foot is due to lack of communication...one person cannot express they're true feelings to another due to fear of loosing that relationship....

My counselor told me, "do you know most divorces occur due to the lack of an ability to communicate to each other?"

I think Erma was raised in a family that believed in communicating problems, and a family that did call family meetings, deciding things together, talking things out...however, it is not your culture, which you have stated how you would feel...and maybe you feel that way, b/c your parents dictated to you, what you should or shouldn't do...

However, Erma did unknowingly back DIL into a corner, I'm sure she felt that way, however, it wasn't Erma's intent, it was her culture, what she was used to, how she was raised...and that is one thing DIL needs to realize, DIL feels it was wrong to do...she felt targeted, probably like she was being blamed...and was upset...and she lashed out as a protective mechanism....

So, Glitter, what do you suggest now?  Say you were her DIL, what do you think Erma could do to help DIL understand that she wasn't attacking her, but doing what her parents did, and she did as a parent.

My family did the same thing Glitter, we discussed things together as a family, found out how everyone felt about an issue...and went from there....if someone's feelings were hurt, we made each other aware of it...however, as a child, I didn't get it...I thought I was being blamed...and wrong...but I wasn't...

[1Glitterati]

Glitter If she felt that way, then  you DID back her into a corner.  I would totally be offended to be summoned to a family meeting when it wasn't my family.  And, even if it was...I would be offended to be summoned to a meeting as if I were a child.  As an adult I do NOT answer to my parents.  They are no longer in charge of my life.  I am.

Glitter....it's not about Answering to your family...it's about communicating to each other your feelings and why you feel that way....I do get why your saying this, b/c I do feel her DIL felt like you do....however, I cannot speak for Erma, but as for me, no matter who it is...I want to sit down and communicate to each other where we might have hurt each other or what we might have said that set us off on the wrong foot...doesn't make anyone right or wrong...and, after being to counseling, and reading, that the reason two people get off on the wrong foot is due to lack of communication...one person cannot express they're true feelings to another due to fear of loosing that relationship....  You cannot communicate with someone who doesn't want to communicate with you.  I think the family approach is a great approach when the kids are kids. When they are adults...I don't think so.  I don't think so because the parents are no longer in charge of the family.  Family meetings are nice...but ultimately decisions are made by parents because they have the ultimate responsibility and power.  That responsibility and power end when your children are grown.  Perhaps it would have gone over better if the dil had been asked..."Do you want to discuss this?" rather than being summoned.  As I said...from my pov as a dil...that would REALLY make me angry.

My counselor told me, "do you know most divorces occur due to the lack of an ability to communicate to each other?"  I don't disagree with that.  Lots of divorces also occur over money issues and inlaw issues.  Parents have no place whatsoever inside their child's marriage.  (That's just a general comment...it has nothing to do with Erma or her post.)

I think Erma was raised in a family that believed in communicating problems, and a family that did call family meetings, deciding things together, talking things out...That may be.  Fine.  Cool.  Dil was not raised in that family and it's silly to think she would be responsive to that way of doing things.  I'm also still harping on the issue of calling a family meeting for the purpose of chastising an adult child and their spouse.  That would not ever fly with me, and frankly I think it's amazing that a parent thinks they have the right to do that kind of thing to an adult child.  however, it is not your culture, which you have stated how you would feel...and maybe you feel that way, b/c your parents dictated to you, what you should or shouldn't do...  Actually...my parents were in charge when I was a child.  As it should be.  It was their job, they were the parents.  As an adult...I am in charge and responsible for what I do.  I neither want nor need my parents to tell me what to do or how to do it.  If I want advice, I'll ask for it--and I have in the past and I'm sure I will in the future. 

However, Erma did unknowingly back DIL into a corner, I'm sure she felt that way, however, it wasn't Erma's intent, Intent doesn't matter, results do.  As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.  I'm sure we've all been guilty of doing something with good intent and having it turn out badly, just as I'm sure we've all been victims of someone doing it to us.  it was her culture, what she was used to, how she was raised...and that is one thing DIL needs to realize, DIL feels it was wrong to do...she felt targeted, probably like she was being blamed...and was upset...and she lashed out as a protective mechanism....

So, Glitter, what do you suggest now?  Say you were her DIL, what do you think Erma could do to help DIL understand that she wasn't attacking her, but doing what her parents did, and she did as a parent.  I don't know how to fix it.  Perhaps offering her the option to sit down and talk as opposed to summoning her?  Leave the ball in her court.  It would then be dil's choice to discuss the issues or not.  And, be prepared that dil may not want to discuss the issues.

My family did the same thing Glitter, we discussed things together as a family, found out how everyone felt about an issue...and went from there....if someone's feelings were hurt, we made each other aware of it...however, as a child, I didn't get it...I thought I was being blamed...and wrong...but I wasn't...As I said...I think that approach works good with children, not adults.

[cremebrulee]

Glitter, thanks so much for what you've offered...I do understand where you coming from...and why you feel the way you do....

Maybe it will help Erma in the future to understanding how to communicate with her DIL...and she has learned that, that is not the way to do it...

I think Erma was concerned with getting to the bottom of the problem and moving on and did it the only way she knew how, never realizing what you've written here in refrence....and it just sadly went from bad to worse.

I think Glitter, you've offered some very good points...that we must consider, if we want to make it with out DIL's. 

Family culture does not always mean that our DIL's are going to understand it or take it the way it is intended...

Thanks so much for your idea on how Erma might be able to change it...

What do you think Erma, or anyone else here for that matter?  Is it worth considering?

See I can understand how you might feel Erma, b/c I think family meetings are great...however, they may certainly not be great for everyone...and can now see Glitter's point.  To me it's like theorpy, getting the things out that hurt and insulted one another...but I really do believe your DIL took it like she was being attacked....

and I haven't had any family meetings with my son or DIL, I"ve addressed the person I've had the problem with, which is what I've learned works better for us...

my parents were the ones who had family meetings, aunts, uncles, children etc...

Creme

[1Glitterati]

Glitter, thanks so much for what you've offered...I do understand where you coming from...and why you feel the way you do....

Maybe it will help Erma in the future to understanding how to communicate with her DIL...and she has learned that, that is not the way to do it...

I think Erma was concerned with getting to the bottom of the problem and moving on and did it the only way she knew how, never realizing what you've written here in refrence....and it just sadly went from bad to worse.

I think Glitter, you've offered some very good points...that we must consider, if we want to make it with out DIL's. 

Family culture does not always mean that our DIL's are going to understand it or take it the way it is intended...

Thanks so much for your idea on how Erma might be able to change it...

What do you think Erma, or anyone else here for that matter?  Is it worth considering?

Creme

FTR...I do want to say that Erma was exactly right earlier in pointing out that two people can see the exact same thing and come away with two different interpretations.

What I've learned over the years is just to flat out ask the other person if I'm understanding them clearly.  Ex "Is this what you think/feel in regards to ______________?"  No...it's not comfortable, but it gets easier.

Also...as far as the lake thing...what about saying "If you'd like to come up to the lake, just let us know a good time for you."? or even asking "If you're not fond of the lake, what are some other things you'd want to do together occassionally?"

Now...the kicker with that is...you have to be prepared for the answers.  If there's a possibility dil will say...well...you know...I really don't want to do anything with you, I just don't feel that way about you...then it's gonna hurt.  You have to be willing to hear and deal with the answer when you don't know if it's going to be good, bad, or ugly.

[Pen]

I still believe that some MILs/DILs are just looking for excuses to cut us off. They know going in that they are going to sabotage the relationship and get their way. In Erma's situation that may be why DIL is being obstinate and unyielding. Glitter is right; you cannot make someone communicate if they don't want to; you're hitting your head against the proverbial brick wall.

As I said previously, DS is the key here. If he stands up for himself and his FOO, DIL may choose to come around. If not, if the stakes are too high, his FOO is out. Sad, sad, sad. Who knew that DILs had that much power? I think we knew about the wrath of some MILs (jokes abound) but experiencing my DIL's powerplay suprised me when it suddenly happened. Thank goodness my DS stood up for us...things are improving.

[barelythere]

Dear Erma,
Something about your story hurts me for you.  You had said that you kept asking your son and DIL to come by your cabin and they said no and no became a long, long time.  I know there were issues with your not being able to go with them places you couldn't afford.  I was just wondering if her family was going also on these trips?  The reason I'm asking is that, this is just a thought, do you think her family felt slighted by you not going and didn't comprehend that you couldn't afford it, just that maybe you didn't want to be with them??

You never know what people might be thinking.  Relaying an incident we had with our first son: her parents invited us to go to dinner with them.  We went and enjoyed it.  Our son comes to us about 3 weeks later and says, totally out of character for him!!!, "WHY ARE YOU AND DAD NOT INVITING DIL's FAMILY OUT TO DINNER!!!!!!!!???  THEY INVITED YOU!!!!!!!" (I'm shouting because he had his voice raised)  This was before they married and obviously she had told him her parent's feelings were hurt and to come tell us off.

You know?  I honestly had to ask myself why we hadn't?  It wasn't anything at the time except we just hadn't gotten around to it.  (we paid for our portion anyway, it wasn't like they paid for it)  I think that hurt their feelings.  I wouldn't have given it one single thought myself.  I don't count calls or invitations.  Others do.  I was just wondering if your DIL's family got their feelings hurt because you couldn't keep up with their lifestyle???  Grasping for straws here.

Maybe her outburst that you were trash and her whole family thought so too was based on that?  I guess what she said would hurt to the core so much that I might never get over it.  Your son and GChild are in the mix now so you have a vested interest in how it turns out.  I am so sorry this happened.  We come from a land of "calling a family meeting too", not that we've used it but that's how things were done back when and it is only a term, not a command. 

Bless you, Erma.  I've thought of you all day.  We might have some expectations and maybe they're out of line sometimes but we at least would like to be treated with dignity.  Running off when you drove up had to hurt.  How do you move past this?  How are you going to?  You sound a lot stronger than I am so I suspect you will be okay.  You're a great person, I can tell. 

[Pen]

You make good points, BT. There may be many reasons. I've been thinking of Erma today as well. Bless us all.

[erma]

thanks BT!!  and yes my son needs to be the one to intervine. as far as "calling a family meeting" that IS just a term. we did not command them in anyway, first we asked IF they would like to talk at all, we ASKED if there was a time and place THEY would like to meet. and glitter your absolutely right about DIL. it is not how she was raised. we however,  believe in communication. you see, no one can be forced into believing or changing something that either they are not ready for, or that they hold their beliefs in. that IS why we communicate with people period. to have the understanding of their side of the story. never playing the blame, shame game, just trying on the "other persons shoes".  and believe me, we make sure they know their welcome at the lake ANYTIME. they are aware they are welcome, anytime. maybe we are to available. maybe that's it.
we DO NOT give advice unless asked. even then its "take what you want, leave the rest" and as far as money goes, with her parents i mean, i don't believe they felt anything. we are not involved with them, and they not us. not good, not bad, indifferent. and yes, my ds and dil go on frequent trips and vacations with her family. she was all to happy, according to my son, to tell her family we couldn't afford to go.maybe one day they will go with us. to see how our family interacts too. but all in time. then again maybe not. which would hurt.
yes, things she says hurt, but i have seen the "other side" of her. so, i understand when she lashes out, she is preserving. as you said glitter, maybe she just doesn't like me, or our family, and maybe she just wants nothing to do with us. that would really hurt to the core. but if so, for me anyway, i would like to know, and why. what set her off, why her family thinks were "trash"?. she certainly didn't give us that impression when she spent countless days , nites, weeks, here before they were married. like i said, the minute she said "i do" things really changed quickly.
my intire issue is, why the abrupt change, not just in communication, but attitude. we are not doing anything different than before the marriage. i am not one of the meddling mothers, i raised my children as i was, "well pick you up and dust you off once, the next fall is up to you."
now mind you, i think it goes without saying, this is for adult children. i have my life as they do theirs. just sometimes would like to share it.

[1Glitterati]

i would like to know, and why. what set her off, why her family thinks were "trash"?. she certainly didn't give us that impression when she spent countless days , nites, weeks, here before they were married. like i said, the minute she said "i do" things really changed quickly.
my intire issue is, why the abrupt change, not just in communication, but attitude. we are not doing anything different than before the marriage.

Did you ever get a chance to ask those questions?  Or did her throwing out the trash comment pretty much end the conversation?

Do you think it would cause WW3 if you asked her "why the abrupt change, not just in communication, but attitude. we are not doing anything different than before the marriage"?

[LaurieS]

How is it that once you become a mother-in-law it's almost assumed that you can no longer understand what it's like to be a daughter-in-law?  Why is it that upon becoming a MIL every  move you make is now objectionable? 

Erma, I still say that your actions while delivering the gifts was acceptable.   Your  DIL had the option of answering your phone  call and at that point she could have requested that you not come by, or come by at a later time.  She could have reached you on your cell had she realized that she needed to desperately get to an appointment, Target or whatever she was  rushing off to do. 

While many DIL's (not yet MIL's) have stepped up and offered some sound advice, there seems to be a theme which is that you will play by their play book, or else.  You  did not commit a deployable act  of violence, you were dropping off gifts.  Of course I would attempt to call my DIL (as you did) before stopping by, and she would do the same, but if for any reason those calls were missed and she stopped in unexpectantly, I would not become angry.  Some previous postings have included numerous reasons for why this would ruin their relationship with a person but I really feel that it is a control issue.  I haven't asked but I'm sure some DIL's will post their feelings, but do they require this type of demand communication from all their friends and relatives or just their IL's?  If one of their own family members were to stop in would she/he be treated in the same manner? 

If my house was not as clean as I would have liked it to be when I had unexpected company, I would simply say..oh well you caught me on a sloppy day.  If I was braless, I'd say, hey come in I need to change quickly and leave it at that. 

You can open the lines of communication without handing out an insincere apology.  And if you did then the other party (DIL) would not feel backed into a corner to issue her own apology.  I don't think running around apologizing for every breath you take is the answer, nor is walking on egg shells...  I'm sure when Erma tried to get everyone to open the lines of communication she was not treating anyone like a child. 

[erma]

no, the trash comment was just that. trash.  so moving on, yes, i did ask if she was upset with us, (me) or my family, why we were on permanent ignore. her response was " i dont know what your talking about, I'm not ignoring anyone'. and if we call them now, which is less and less, maybe 2x a month, he answers the phone, but is only allowed to talk to us on speaker phone. this i truly dont understand. she only started this after they were married.  i will not and have not spoken ill of her to DS ever. that would hurt him as well as us.  so where the insecurity comes from is not us, something in her past maybe. but her refusal to admit the obvious to us, really? actions always speak louder than words. maybe you can shed some lite on that for me.

[erma]

you are so wise laurie! thank you thank you thank you!!!! i love your words of wisdom! 

[barelythere]

you are so wise laurie! thank you thank you thank you!!!! i love your words of wisdom! 

Laurie is very wise and tells it like it is.  Thank you for that!!  I like that she doesn't tippie toe around the subject. 

Erma, you mentioned that your son had to have the speaker phone on.  Yes, some of the DILs demand that.  They want to hear whatever tone you're using and if you say anything about them, I guess.  For Heaven sake, I don't get that but it is sometimes the way it is.  You'll find a recurring theme here of them changing radically when they get married.  Some have practically taken up residence with the family before the tie the knot and for some reason they get territorial after they do.

Does your son know what she said about "trash?"  You can't tell him!!  He will tell her and that will give her enough ammunition to push you over.  I have a basket full of things done to us by both DILs, done and said that we've kept to ourselves. If we tell them, we're out forever.  This sounds like a huge conspiracy but it isn't, it's just a heartbreaker.  Kind of an insidious war where words and actions are used instead of swords but kill just the same.

[1Glitterati]

While many DIL's (not yet MIL's) have stepped up and offered some sound advice, there seems to be a theme which is that you will play by their play book, or else.

Laurie...I think that is true.  I'll even admit to being like that a good bit in my life.

Why?  (I'm speaking in a general life sense here...not singling out inlaws...but talking about EVERYONE in my life.)  Because I've reached a point in my life where I'm tired of being around unpleasantness or things I just don't like.  Or putting up with a bunch of drama from a person who sees no need to change their behavior.  Sucking it up for the greater good never really made me feel anything but put upon.  Especially as I didn't feel it (the sucking up and compromising thing)  was a reciprocal thing with many people in my life.  This is not to say I don't compromise...because I do compromise sometimes with other people.  I just happen to do it with the people who reciprocate.

Maybe I have gotten harsher as I've gotten older.  But I can tell you this...I"ve gotten HAPPIER.  As I eliminate drama and b.s. from my life it just gets better and better. 

[LaurieS]

Hey Glitter.. I agree with you... I don't have time for BS and I'll tend to lay it on the line.. but I do try to be understanding at the same time.... I know some hate when you say the word expectations here, but I do expect to be treated the way in which I treat others, and I think most sound minded people have that same expectation, don't you?