trying to cope

[1Glitterati]

DILs aren't the only ones to have PTSD.

Not only did you not give consideration to anything the poster said...and she had some good points and showed some places where it would be easy for miscommunication to occur, you deliberately minimized the reason the previous poster gave for her ptsd (being the victim of a violent attack whee she didn't know if she would live or die) and intimated it was silly.

[barelythere]

DILs aren't the only ones to have PTSD.

Not only did you not give consideration to anything the poster said...and she had some good points and showed some places where it would be easy for miscommunication to occur, you deliberately minimized the reason the previous poster gave for her ptsd (being the victim of a violent attack whee she didn't know if she would live or die) and intimated it was silly.

No, it's not silly and I didn't deliberately do anything.  I am a survivor of horrific things.  We are talking about Erma and her situation, not mine and not the posters.  If Erma's DIL is a survivor of horrific things too, then my sincere apologies.  I highly doubt it, though.

[erma]

hello rose,
sorry you have PTSD. have you gotten some counciling for it? i have, for many years. im also disheartend that you havent communicated with you MIL for over 20 years. EVERYBODY changes, and it really saddens me to think that someone is missing out on a life of someone who may have changed.  but this isnt about you, this is about my son and DIL. which i love very much, both of them. she is a wonderful house keeper and cook. we cook together over the holidays. we make cookies, fudge and all the trimmings. she has started her own traditions, to which im very respectful. my own DD does none of these things, (she cant boil water ) so to have a DIL who loves most of the same things i do is a joy. also, this has not been the pattern in the past, they have been MARRIED for 4 years. my DIL has no disorders what so ever. she comes from LARGE money. she has no horrific past, that we are aware of, encluding my son. when they started dating at age 17, she was at my home alot. when my son went to collage, far away, she would come here and sit, bake, cook, "hang out" until my son came home. we talked alot. she was a lovly girl. she still is, i thank god my son found his true love. she loves him like no other. she has been good to him, and for him. he is good for her. they compliment each other completely.
we, on the other hand, are simple people. we live in a farming community, rual area. you know, bake pies for church bake sale, put lights on the goats for the christmas parade and such.
we are hard working people, we cant take time away for cruises, trips to belize, ski trips to aspen co., travel 60 miles to go for a 300 dollar dinner.
no, im not jelous, i came from money too. we enjoy our life here. its simplicity at its best.
the problem started when we couldnt join my son, my DIL and her family on a week long fishing trip that would have cost us more than a ""i tell ya! it went down hill form there. by this time they were happily married, and went on many vacations with and without her parents.  we were invited the first 6 months worth of outings, a couple we went on, and the rest, well, we simply could not afford to go. as time went on, thye stopped inviting us, which was ok, bcuz i just felt bad having to say no, we cant afford it.  so, one day, we invited son, dil, and her family to our little cottage, (which is really a trailer by a lake, but i adore it) and we were told no. ok, no is ok for a while, but after a couple years of "NO" gets amnoying. so we called a family meeting at our house. which is what we did when we needed to work out issues in our family unit. they came, we all communicated, i asked why they didnt want to come to our little lake house, (which my kids grew up with, and loved) she said , what, that shack? really? " i was like a deer in the headlights, blink, blink. i asked my hubby, outloud, did she just insult us"? my hubby didnt say a word, it got quit, and then DIL said, and i will never forget the words, "WELL MY WHOLE FAMILY THINKS YOUR TRASH TOO"!

[barelythere]

hello rose,
sorry you have PTSD. have you gotten some counciling for it? i have, for many years. im also disheartend that you havent communicated with you MIL for over 20 years. EVERYBODY changes, and it really saddens me to think that someone is missing out on a life of someone who may have changed.  but this isnt about you, this is about my son and DIL. which i love very much, both of them. she is a wonderful house keeper and cook. we cook together over the holidays. we make cookies, fudge and all the trimmings. she has started her own traditions, to which im very respectful. my own DD does none of these things, (she cant boil water ) so to have a DIL who loves most of the same things i do is a joy. also, this has not been the pattern in the past, they have been MARRIED for 4 years. my DIL has no disorders what so ever. she comes from LARGE money. she has no horrific past, that we are aware of, encluding my son. when they started dating at age 17, she was at my home alot. when my son went to collage, far away, she would come here and sit, bake, cook, "hang out" until my son came home. we talked alot. she was a lovly girl. she still is, i thank god my son found his true love. she loves him like no other. she has been good to him, and for him. he is good for her. they compliment each other completely.
we, on the other hand, are simple people. we live in a farming community, rual area. you know, bake pies for church bake sale, put lights on the goats for the christmas parade and such.
we are hard working people, we cant take time away for cruises, trips to belize, ski trips to aspen co., travel 60 miles to go for a 300 dollar dinner.
no, im not jelous, i came from money too. we enjoy our life here. its simplicity at its best.
the problem started when we couldnt join my son, my DIL and her family on a week long fishing trip that would have cost us more than a ""i tell ya! it went down hill form there. by this time they were happily married, and went on many vacations with and without her parents.  we were invited the first 6 months worth of outings, a couple we went on, and the rest, well, we simply could not afford to go. as time went on, thye stopped inviting us, which was ok, bcuz i just felt bad having to say no, we cant afford it.  so, one day, we invited son, dil, and her family to our little cottage, (which is really a trailer by a lake, but i adore it) and we were told no. ok, no is ok for a while, but after a couple years of "NO" gets amnoying. so we called a family meeting at our house. which is what we did when we needed to work out issues in our family unit. they came, we all communicated, i asked why they didnt want to come to our little lake house, (which my kids grew up with, and loved) she said , what, that shack? really? " i was like a deer in the headlights, blink, blink. i asked my hubby, outloud, did she just insult us"? my hubby didnt say a word, it got quit, and then DIL said, and i will never forget the words, "WELL MY WHOLE FAMILY THINKS YOUR TRASH TOO"!

Erma.....

[erma]

sorry, hit the post button, wasn't finished. so anyhow, that's what started it, she is embarrassed i think. i can forgive, but she wants to have our DS all to herself i truly believe. if he chooses to not speak to us, then that's his choice. but my other post in sons and daughters really tells it all.
i am a very perceptive person, i read people very well. there are no "miscommunications" and no misunderstandings. i know when someone insults me, feels ashamed of me,and that's what she feels of us. we, as i said, are simple people, hard working and forthwrite.
the secret here is, we as women, can hold each other up or bring each other down. i chose to trust the women in my circle, and it gets smaller as we age, but we are all the same, we want to be loved and needed by our family's. that's it, simple, kinda like us. i hope your heart heals rose. i hope my DIL and mine do too. i pray for that each day. just trying to get some advice and success from other women who have been there. so i do thank you for your input rose.  i will try to see her side, but as far as an apology, no. i didn't do anything wrong. and for the record, as she screeched out of the driveway with my grandson in tow, she was seen at TARGET" by my dear friend and neighbor, who was overjoyed to see my GS, (we saw each others kids grow up, and she let me know she saw my GS and DIL), so no, there was no doctor appointment. and last but not least, i do not judge, its not my job.

[barelythere]

sorry, hit the post button, wasn't finished. so anyhow, that's what started it, she is embarrassed i think. i can forgive, but she wants to have our DS all to herself i truly believe. if he chooses to not speak to us, then that's his choice. but my other post in sons and daughters really tells it all.
i am a very perceptive person, i read people very well. there are no "miscommunications" and no misunderstandings. i know when someone insults me, feels ashamed of me,and that's what she feels of us. we, as i said, are simple people, hard working and forthwrite.
the secret here is, we as women, can hold each other up or bring each other down. i chose to trust the women in my circle, and it gets smaller as we age, but we are all the same, we want to be loved and needed by our family's. that's it, simple, kinda like us. i hope your heart heals rose. i hope my DIL and mine do too. i pray for that each day. just trying to get some advice and success from other women who have been there. so i do thank you for your input rose.  i will try to see her side, but as far as an apology, no. i didn't do anything wrong. and for the record, as she screeched out of the driveway with my grandson in tow, she was seen at TARGET" by my dear friend and neighbor, who was overjoyed to see my GS, (we saw each others kids grow up, and she let me know she saw my GS and DIL), so no, there was no doctor appointment. and last but not least, i do not judge, its not my job.

Erma, I feel a wisdom in you by what you write that's not there with most people.  I love that...we need it.  I wish I could make this go away for you but I can't.  Your Daughter in law is a very selfish, young woman.  I wouldn't want to be in her shoes for anything because this son she has might grow up and marry someone just like her and it won't be pretty and you don't need to justify yourself here to any one.   Stay strong.  With all the blessings I can send to one dear lady.

[erma]

BT    thank you

[barelythere]

BT    thank you

[1Glitterati]

so, one day, we invited son, dil, and her family to our little cottage, (which is really a trailer by a lake, but i adore it) and we were told no. ok, no is ok for a while, but after a couple years of "NO" gets amnoying. so we called a family meeting at our house. which is what we did when we needed to work out issues in our family unit.   Perhaps this is a generational thing, perhaps not...I'm 40...so I may or may not be a different generation.  Being summoned to a "family" meeting would not go over well with me.  In fact, it would make me quite angry.  First I would be shocked--along the lines of excuse me?  was I just summoned like I was a child and asked to explain myself for daring to live my own life?  And by someone who has no right to summon me?  Then I would have gotten mad.  Then I would have not gone.  Being summoned to a meeting like that would forever change the tone of the relationship for me.  Also...I don't consider my inlaws "family" in the same way I consider my parents family--which is why being summoned to a "family" meeting would make me feel so bent out of shape (in addition to the fact that I'm an adult and my parents no longer have any dominion over me).  I'm also really sure dh doesn't consider mine his family either. they came, we all communicated, i asked why they didnt want to come to our little lake house, (which my kids grew up with, and loved) she said , what, that shack? really? " i was like a deer in the headlights, blink, blink. i asked my hubby, outloud, did she just insult us"? my hubby didnt say a word, it got quit, and then DIL said, and i will never forget the words, "WELL MY WHOLE FAMILY THINKS YOUR TRASH TOO"!  I think it was tacky and mean of her to say that.  I don't see a reason for that to have been said. 

[Pen]

Erma, your DIL's rudeness and rejection of you are way out of line. If DS stands up for his FOO perhaps she'll come around, but it's unlikely you'll get an apology. Don't allow her to ruin your relationship with your DS, or your happy memories of your cabin, so ignore her rudeness as the result of poor parenting. Who's trashy? The inconsiderate one...Perhaps, as Glitter said, being summoned to a family mtg was too much for your DIL, but I kind of think she'd already made up her mind about you long ago.

I can't imagine me or any of my friends ever saying anything like your DIL's "trash" comment to anyone. Unbelievable. I agree with Glitter that it was uncalled for. My DIL comes into our home and criticizes our "out-dated" appliances and lack of square footage. When I visit people who live a less lavish life style than I, I find things to compliment and would never say anything disparaging about their home. Perhaps that's generational as well.

Very few of our DILs consider us "family" but I think they have different expectations for their DHs. My DIL's FOO has tried to absorb my DS in without even considering his, or our, feelings. He's had to stand up for himself and us many times since it never occurs to them that they're overstepping their boundaries. I don't think they get that he might not consider them family just as DIL doesn't consider us family. That pesky double-standard again

Best wishes to you. I'm sorry your DS isn't able to enjoy the cabin right now. Let's hope things change for the better. Our DIL is starting to come around to the idea that her DH might want to continue enjoying the "trashy" (?!??) activities and places he loved so much as a child, but he had to stand up for his right to do so. There's hope, but it starts with DS.

[Rose]

Erma,
    I was not implying for you to grovel as was said earlier.  If you/she wants to call it that so be it.  All I know is that four years ago she called you a b!tch and I doubt seriously if you don't know why she said that.  Whether it was justified is debateable.  This has been going on for at least three years.  It has festered and will only grow.  Denying that you did anything wrong even to yourself is not going to fix it.  I am sorry that she ran to Target but given the circumstances I'm not surprised, she's angry and you think it's alright to break her boundaries as long as you bring gifts, furthering her anger and resentment. 

What I thought was if you apologized it would at least get them to listen to you.  Possibly open the lines of communication and maybe as a family you could fix this and both sides could apologize.  If she were the one I was talking to I would have said the same thing to her. 

My husband used to take the kids to visit his Mother much the way your son did earlier this month.  Because his Mother couldn't stop insulting our children and me he stopped.  He said she picked on the oldest daughter because she looked like me and she picked on our oldest son because he wasn't as tall as his cousin and she frequently comments even now to them negatively about me.  We also live in a small community, we see her infrequently.  She has had several opportunities to show us she has changed, we shop the same stores and go to the same social events.  We attended some family events over the years.  We went back for a Christmas and to see my Husband's family together.  Nothing had changed.  In fact after speaking to other family members I have been told she is just the same and they are considering estrangement also.

As far as my PTSD yes as I mentioned earlier my Doctor said that my behavior and my request were understandable and appropriate.  BUT, even if I hadn't had PTSD my Mother in law coming here without calling after being asked not to was not understandable or appropriate. 

You can stand your ground and never apologize and never admit to yourself or your son that what you did was wrong and inconsiderate, just like my Mother in law, and when your GS graduates from High school maybe he won't go to his commencement because you will be there like mine did.  Maybe someday you will have a GD and someday she will be asking her father how can she have her wedding and invite her Aunts and Uncles and not invite her Grandmother so she won't ruin it like she did her graduation, just like my Daughter did.  As I said think long term.

As I said your choice only you can decide if it's worth it.

[cremebrulee]

Hi Erma...

the only way to find out what is bothering people is to discuss it, talk it out....and I don't think you were wrong in calling a family meeting...I think it was wise and showed that you wanted to discuss it and communicate your feelings and were also ready to listen to they're feelings about the whole situation.

Your DIL handled it wrong...she probably felt like she was being put on the chopping block, b/c it was her and her family that didn't want to come.  So, she had an outburst....which was so wrong, rude and belittling and I can totally understand your hurt...and had every right to be hurt....

However, to her, and I'm trying to look at this from a younger person's view, who doesn't have a lot of confidence, is immature, and used to money....someday, Erma, she will be sorry for what she said...

When she said that, what did your son say?  Did they storm out directly after, what happened from that point on....

I bet she felt like she was being backed into a corner....and she became so angry and defensive, and she felt like she had to defend her parents actions...by not coming.....

What I'm trying to say here, is...I side with you totally, but, the fact of the matter is...do you want to honestly forgive and go forward?  If you do, and if you want a relationship with them....free of any anger or blame, you are going to have to one day come to terms with her outburst and not see it as an attack against you, but anger and she said the first thing that came to her mind...

All right, now you know, she doesn't want to go, for what ever reason...however, you must push forward if you want a relationship with her, son and GC.  Erma, I'm not saying you should swallow dignity, and she said some very hurtful things...But when Glitter said, she doesn't think of her in-laws as family....to be honest, a lot of DIL's feel that way...inlaws are people to, they want to be loved and they want DIL to feel like family...and we actually believe once our son's marry that nothing is going to change, and we'll continue as things were....however, DIL doesn't feel that way....

My God Erma, I was convinced my DIL was narcissistic...she is not...she is the most caring person...she just had her own way of doing things....when they first got married, we both made mistakes....but after time, I decided that life was not going to be right until I did what I had to do, to make this work...she was afraid of me, afraid I didn't like her, she actually thought I hated her for things she had done, and all both of us wanted was to be friends...

Regardless of what your situation was before son and she were married, once they marry, it's different, she is now the head of her house hold and wants boundaries...it's nice if you all can vacation together, however, it's a fact that most, not all but most DIL's want to be with they're family more...it's a comfort zone for them...it's what they are used to, and they are very close with they're mothers...

What we MIL's do, and we of course have every right to expect things to be like that, but we don't understand, why they don't want to be with us...so we start thinking it must be us, and what did we do...and we're uneasy and angry when we are around them, not to mention, resentful b/c we're hurt b/c they are not spending time with us....it hurts awful....and our son's go where they're wives want to be....

So, my question is, do you want to continue to be hurt, angry disallusioned, or do you want to try and figure this thing out? 

If we try and understand why our DIL's feel the way they do...it's a much easier go...they have different perspectives, different traditions, values and feel differently about things.  I bet you any money, she is very embarrassed about what she said, or will be someday, and could kick herself for saying what she did.

I'm not siding with her, by any means...but, lets together, try and figure out her MO, and by doing so, perhaps we can save you a whole lot of grief...pain, anger, blame...

Like Glitter explained, how she would feel if there was a family meeting called, that is probably how she felt...doesn't make her right or wrong...she just doesn't understand your family culture and felt trapped....hurt, and probably to blame...it's like cornering a mama bear, when you corner an animal, they're going to lash out, especially when they're young, and that is what she did....

So, lets take this further and discuss it remembering, there is no right or wrong here...but perspectives and culture...remembering, no matter what your life was like with her before they were married, for some reason it changes after they are married...

Lets be honest...do you call them a lot, do you stop by a lot...lets examine your behavior with them and see if we can figure this out together?  Remembering...I'm not in the least saying your wrong, what I'm trying to do is figure this out, so that perhaps you can deal with her in a loving way, forgive her somehow and move forward...

In other words, I could post and say, she was wrong for saying what she said, she is wrong for being so thoughtless and selfish, rude, etc....but that isn't going to make your situation any better, however, we can discuss it and try to look at both sides here, and try and figure out, what is going on in her head, and why she feels the way she feels and maybe that will give you a whole different perspective of the situation, which might make things better...if you take the lead...

And I have to add, that Rose, gave some very productive views....as well as Glitter...and  in order to help our situations along, we can't stay caught in this blame mode, and call our DIL's names, or say we didn't do anything wrong...We might not have done anything wrong in our way of thinking, but in order to figure it out, and move on, we have to view things from a different perspective, in order to understand why?  Which means self exploration....putting ourselves in her shoes, and also considering, that while they're words or actions hurt us, it may not have been meant the way it sounded...

Apparently your DIL was raised with money, and going to a trailor to her at this point in time, might be beneath her, but, hopefully as she ages, in time, and it may take time, she will be very sorry she said that, it probably caused unrest at home with your son, and maybe she was defending her parents but really didn't feel that way?
Wasn't right, surely it wasn't however, why did she react the way she did?

What happened after she said what she said?  What has occurred since then?

Hugs
Creme

[erma]

hello all,
thanks for all the input. i will try to answer some questions here. first let me say, i don't call them but maybe twice a month, if that. i NEVER stop by their home. we have gone to their home thru invitation only, except the time i dropped off gifts we purchased while on vacation for them. i had them sitting in my front room for a month before i took them over there. i wished for my GS to have them before he outgrew them. 
yes I'm quit sure my DIL and DS grew up in different cultures so to speak. that's OK by me, you know the old saying "two people can look at the exact same thing and see something totally different". i get that, i knew this as a child. we did not back her in a corner although she may have felt that way. i could see that, but no need to be rude. i guess maybe its the generation thing. she not only attacked me, but my family and our way of life. after she said that, we put a stop to it, and yes, they left shortly after, my DS hugged me good by, and we never spoke of it again. i don't ask about what goes on in their marriage, none of my business. unless my son WANTS to tell me or say something to her for that matter, we can do nothing but wait. every one changes.  i think she will in time , but for now  shes immature and selfish and selfabsorbed. i believe we all are at times in our lives, its called self preservation. NEVER COMPREMISE YOURSELF.
i have been call a "B" by the best of them, sometimes for good reason, sometimes no reason.  so if we all were to be "real" here, we must look to ourselves first. which is what i do. i don't claim to be perfect or to know it all, if i did, id be "six feet under" so to speak. meaning nothing left to learn. i believe she wants our son all to herself, to cut him out of our lives. she became a different person the minute she said "I DO". in my heart of hearts, i truly believe she thinks our family, among others, is beneath her. I'm hurt, but not disillusioned, i claim my part of everything i do, if i didn't, well, frankly id be acting like her. i have been humbled by them as well, but i am no ones doormat. i believe she holds her head high, but is in the clouds. she cant see yet.
no she doesn't feel were her family. sad. i also am a DIL. love my MIL though. shes said hurtful things to me, not out of spite, just the way she is. for me its not about blame or shame. that goes back to my childhood thought of, 2 people look at the same exact thing and see some thing totally different.  its all in how we perceive things, as well as how we handle our attitude towards things.
i will say, she is good to my son. she loves him and respects him. so for her to have picked him, i must have done something right while raising him! 
so in wrapping up my novel here, (sorry) i have faith that it will come around, just not as fast as i would like, (whaaa) i do miss them, all of them, because i know how sweet she CAN be.

[1Glitterati]

hello all,
thanks for all the input. i will try to answer some questions here. first let me say, i don't call them but maybe twice a month, if that. i NEVER stop by their home. we have gone to their home thru invitation only, except the time i dropped off gifts we purchased while on vacation for them. i had them sitting in my front room for a month before i took them over there. i wished for my GS to have them before he outgrew them. 
yes I'm quit sure my DIL and DS grew up in different cultures so to speak. that's OK by me, you know the old saying "two people can look at the exact same thing and see something totally different". i get that, i knew this as a child. we did not back her in a corner although she may have felt that way.   If she felt that way, then  you DID back her into a corner.  I would totally be offended to be summoned to a family meeting when it wasn't my family.  And, even if it was...I would be offended to be summoned to a meeting as if I were a child.  As an adult I do NOT answer to my parents.  They are no longer in charge of my life.  I am.  i could see that, but no need to be rude. i guess maybe its the generation thing. she not only attacked me, but my family and our way of life. after she said that, we put a stop to it, and yes, they left shortly after, my DS hugged me good by, and we never spoke of it again. i don't ask about what goes on in their marriage, none of my business. unless my son WANTS to tell me or say something to her for that matter, we can do nothing but wait. every one changes.  i think she will in time , but for now  shes immature and selfish and selfabsorbed. i believe we all are at times in our lives, its called self preservation. NEVER COMPREMISE YOURSELF.   And just as you have the right to never compromise yourself...so does she.  It's a two way street. 
i have been call a "B" by the best of them, sometimes for good reason, sometimes no reason.  so if we all were to be "real" here, we must look to ourselves first. which is what i do. i don't claim to be perfect or to know it all, if i did, id be "six feet under" so to speak. meaning nothing left to learn. i believe she wants our son all to herself, to cut him out of our lives. she became a different person the minute she said "I DO". in my heart of hearts, i truly believe she thinks our family, among others, is beneath her. And...she may.  There isn't anything you can do to changer her idea of that.  She'll have to realize she is wrong on her own.  I'm hurt, but not disillusioned, i claim my part of everything i do, if i didn't, well, frankly id be acting like her. i have been humbled by them as well, but i am no ones doormat. i believe she holds her head high, but is in the clouds. she cant see yet.
no she doesn't feel were her family. sad. i also am a DIL. love my MIL though. shes said hurtful things to me, not out of spite, just the way she is. for me its not about blame or shame. that goes back to my childhood thought of, 2 people look at the same exact thing and see some thing totally different.  its all in how we perceive things, as well as how we handle our attitude towards things.
i will say, she is good to my son. she loves him and respects him. so for her to have picked him, i must have done something right while raising him! 
so in wrapping up my novel here, (sorry) i have faith that it will come around, just not as fast as i would like, (whaaa) i do miss them, all of them, because i know how sweet she CAN be.

[cremebrulee]

well, it sounds like your doing all the right things, your patient and your able to view another perspective....and you are able to see your own flaws...I like your attitude...it is one of truth...meaning, you are certainly able to look at both sides....but it's never about you or DIL doing anything wrong, it's about perspective and cultures...and your parents raised you well...

My only suggestion is to be patient, yes, she will mature in time...and someday hopefully she will apologize, however, and I'm certain you already know this, some people can't come out and say, "I'm sorry I was wrong"  I don't know why, but it's the most difficult thing for someone to say, but in they're actions they apologize...and I like the way you refuse to compromise your identity, it's you, who makes up that very special person.

Yes, patience and kindness....when she is around you, make it a point to give her a compliement, or ask her for a recipe, or something to that effect.

One thing that comes to mind, and this may not at all pertain to you, I'm simply thinking out loud...

Once when I was visiting, my son and I became excited about somewhere where we were going, and were talking about it...this was a long long time ago...and it never dawned on me until just recently....anyway, she said in a kind of hurt voice...."may I go along"  and I looked at her shocked adn said, "of course".....and I bet she was hurt, b/c DIL's know how MIL's do like to speand quality time with they're son's once in a while, but during that visit, she was working and DS and I did go to lunch together after spending an afternoon touring...

but for her to actually think that she might not be welcome??  Really surprised me, b/c I automatically thought of her as an attendee, for lack of a better word...anyway....I think we should all keep this in mind...

so, it sounds like you yourself are on very firm ground...and doing the very best you can for the time being....

however, do come in and vent, cry, ask, or just read, which may help....

Your a very understanding lady...and you were very fortunate to have parents who taught you about different perspectives....

I struggled with that when I was young and thought if someone didn't agree with me, they were attacking my personality...and it was pointed out to me, which helped a great deal, but you were far ahead of the game....

big hugs and thanks for hanging in there with me, without taking offense...

also, our DIL's in here can give you a perspective, b/c they are DIL's and I've found them to more times then not give wise advice...don't take them as if they are insulting you, but trying to help you look at things from your DIL and son's perspective...it always helps me...as you say, we're not 100% perfect, never will be, life is a constant work in progress, however, if we are able to view perspectives of others, we move along much faster...and believe me, it took me a long time....

Creme