Love is Patient

[cremebrulee]

Hope  Thanks, Creme.
I'm feeling pretty whipped right now, but knowing I have the support of you and the other good women here is helping me gain strength.

Yes, you do, and also prayers for further strength...honestly Hope, you'll find, as you pursue this more, things get easier...I'm not kidding, it's a very long road back...

To tell you the truth, I caught my dil off guard when I began our talk about what she was upset with.  She had a hard time thinking clearly about what I needed to apologize for and went as far as to say that my dh was wrong - that she didn't say I needed to apologize.  I don't think my dh was inaccurate - b/c he told me right after talking to her and he said that she didn't hesitate to answer him when she said that there were three things I should apologize for.

I'm sure you did....and she was probably as nervous as you if not more.  As far as what she said to your DH, let it go...small potatoes, your making headway...don't fret about the small stuff....she could have been nervous when he was talking to her and she honestly forgot, lets give her the benefit of the doubt...what I'm saying is...don't build on stuff, like in the past...build on the positive issues....if you can....keep telling yourself, calm down, until you can get to a realistic place...and then, just shrug it off...that is the biggest part of this....realizing, that a lot of things she does or says are not targeting you, but more so, she might be in a very bad mood, or simply, she might be an extremely moody person....or angry at your son, b/c they might have had an argument, or an argument with friend or family.

And, Creme, imho that was the first opportunity I had to bring up the subject of her being upset with me without making it even more akward. 

5 years seems a long time doesn't it...for me it was 12 years...

The last five years I would analyze and torture myself over what she was upset about.  I was actually thankful that she told my dh that I needed to apoloze for three things b/c it opened up an opportunity to talk about it. 

The anticipation and fear of discussing the issues at hand are the worst, fear of her getting angry and saying, it's all over, I never want to see you again....and people do that out of embarrassment and fear...fear of being told they're wrong.  They don't understand they can hurt people without realizing it...so, Hope, I know it doesn't seem like much, however, this is huge that she discussed it with you at all....Congratulations!!!!! 

I just responded that it is always a challenge to blend families b/c they are all different - not one better than the other - just different.  I also told her that I am still learning myself how to be the parent of adult children.  I told her that I want her to feel comfortable coming to us if there is something wrong and that I hope we are approachable.  (She said that she would definitely come to us if there was a problem and that we were very approachable.) 

Oh you did good!!!    You see, your not attacking her by saying or causing her to be defensive or embarrassed, you left  her know, her feelings are important, you want to resolve this, and you took ownership for even the smallest thing as inviting her while at another family gathering.  So, now you know, to call her and ask.
I am so excited for you, b/c this also lets her know, that your not playing games...and that you are approachable, your actually getting to know each other this way....yanno, some people are just not approachable and she may have feared that you'd get angry right away....some people do...and that is why people don't even try and discuss issues, some are beyond any discussion what so ever, you proved to her, that not only are you willing, but able to listen and consider, her feelings...

When I asked her to describe what she was talking about, she said she wasn't prepared b/c she didn't know we were going to talk about it and she couldn't think clearly.   

I'm smiling, b/c first, this is the best time to discuss issues.....when not prepared...however, you probably really shocked her...and the fact that she could walk away from you afterwards, feeling probably a little relieved....knowing that there wasn't this huge blown out argument. 

Despite her saying that her feelings were hurt that I thought it would be nice to get to know her better, I really can't answer your question about her childhood.  I don't know anything about her childhood, except that her parents, grandparents, and some aunts/uncles are alcoholics.  They are very close, Italian, and she is fiercely devoted to them.  We may be perceived as a threat to her. 

Hope I say this with all love and concern for progress and resolve....don't assume anything...you don't know if your perceived a threat....I was married to an Italian, with a huge family and Italian traditions....I viewed them as very controlling.  They didn't view me as someone inviting them into my life, but as someone who tey were inviting me into they're life....and boy was it overwhelming.  I had to do everything with they're family...mine was put on hold....every birthday, christening, weekend picnics in the summer...it was horrible....always them....I had no down time to myself....there was always something going on due to the size of the family.  If there were drinking issues in the family, there were also other issues...which they don't discuss outside of the family, they are very dedicated and quiet about personal problems...

If it's one thing I can get across to anyone here, don't assume anything until you get it from the horses mouth, b/c then we start to look for reasons why, which is wrong....


I don't think she had a hard childhood - she acts like she's use to getting what she wants.  She is VERY friendly and outgoing.  She has had some personality problems with people she works with and it lead to her losing her last job.  She likes to spend money even when they don't have it.  If anything, I think she had a spoiled childhood.

Again, don't assume she didn't have a difficult childhood, if they were drinkers....maybe the problems at work were not her, but them, and she just has to get away from them, Hope, the workforce is a very difficult place to be at times....so give her the benefit of the doubt....especially since she is outgoing....


I've said this before, when we are upset and nervous and feel like someone has done us an injustice, it is very very hard to be around them...we want them to like us, but feel like they've rejected us, and rejection hurts...we don't know what to do, it's our son's wife, and we perceive things that are and are not, depending on how the situation has been unattended and escalated....meaning, nothing was ever resolved, the more things that are not discussed and not resolved, makes it worse, and worse, it's like a ticking time bomb.  You Hope have gotten past that, you've made huge huge progress.  Now give her time, let her think about this and digest it....and maybe in a few weeks, you can talk again....but allow her to take the lead...you see, what your doing is trying to find out what upsets her....remember, she is young, immature, and is going to take things even a lot more personal then you....so, go slowly, ever so slowly and don't take things to heart before discussing it with her....ask her, invite her, and compliment her....let your son be second best right now....and by doing that, your reassuring her that she is welcome to come to you....that you like her...and even if she says something that you don't like, your not going to allow it to hurt your relationship, but more so, build on it....

I would continue allowing her to do your hair, if you don't now, she'll be hurt, she won't understand....and its good time with her alone, bonding time...follow her lead, but more so, when your with her, ask her questions about herself, show your interested in getting to know her....ask her for receipes....or advice on what to wear, share a secret with her, nothing nitty gritty, but tell her your planning this big surprise dinner for you and hubby....or your going to a movie, does she like movies, whose her best actress....singer....get her to talk about herself....people love to talk about themselves....and by sharing what you and hubby are doing together, she'll get a better feel for who you both are....continue to let her know that hubby is a big joker and a great person....it sounds to me, like she is very very insecure.....immature and unsure...afraid....people act like this when they are....

I'm soooooo wishing you great things from this Hope, I just have a good feeling about it....


Creme

[Barbie]

Hope, I cannot believe how much your DIL and mine have in common, my DIL's family has the same problems and then some, her father is different, he comes from a very decent family and is a very nice person but they treat him like dirt and don't tell him much of what's going on, DIL's mother and siblings knew that we weren't able to see GD, it wasn't until I told her father that things started to change.  DH and I have detached not by choice but in order to keep our sanity. You see, first it was heartbreaking not to be able to see GD and now that we see her once in a while it's heartbreaking to see how she's being raised and we have no saying in the matter. DH has a very hard time with her diet, DIL is a vegetarian, (to DH that's a sin, LOL), GD eats very little meat if at all, she snacks on junk food all day long, DS has to cook his own meat. They let GD (2 years old) choose what she wants to wear so you can imagine what she looks like when she goes out, nothing turned out the way we dreamed it would be. We have a daughter and another son so hopefully we'll get another shot at it, we're sure things will be a lot different with our DD but in the meantime we're doing the only thing we can do.

[Scoop]

Guest1 - I just want you to know that it's pretty standard procedure for the non-vegetarian in a couple to cook his/her own meat.  I think it's awesome that DIL is letting DGD have any meat, some hardcore vegetarians even insist that their PETS eat vegetarian!  (It doesn't make sense to me either.)

Also, 2 years old are usually pretty fussy eaters.  They're not growing as fast, so they don't need to eat as much.  A lot of parents pull their hair out over the Toddler Air Diet.  For my DD, it was the White Food Group.  She would eat anything WHITE - white bread, white rice, cauliflower, white pasta, white cheese, chicken.  Apparently it's got an evolution-related basis, that cave-toddlers are just starting to wander away from their cave-moms, and in order for them to survive, they have to NOT WANT to eat everything that's around them.

I have to say that I also think it's cool that your DIL is letting DGD pick her own clothes.  I love it when parents let their kids express themselves, and give them this little bit of independence.  Sometimes with 2 year olds, they're trying so HARD to be independent that in order to 'win' some battles, you have to let them make their own choices on others.  If DIL doesn't care about what DGD wears, it's probably because she cares more about something ELSE (naptime?  anyone?).

I'm just pointing this out to you, so you can see it from a different perspective.  When you said that you were worried about how DGD is being raised - I got worried that you were witnessing abuse or neglect.  I have to say when I saw your list, I honestly thought "that's it?".

I think the big thing is the line "nothing turned out the way we dreamed it would be".  Your expectations have not been met, so then it's time to change your expectations.  It's not your job to be the parent.  But what a blessing!  You don't have to worry about raising DGD to be a contributing member of society, you don't have to discipline her (beyond her parents requirements), you don't have to worry about what she eats (let Mom and Dad worry about that).  You can just be Grandma.  If I were you, I would start learning games and remembering how to play!

"If you don't like something, change it.  If you can't change it, change the way you think about it."

[Barbie]

Hi Scoop, I get what you're saying and we're doing just that, we don't meddle in anything, we realize they are the parents and we have no saying in the matter. For us it's a cultural thing, DIL is very different from us and we know we'll never see eye to eye on anything. For instance in our culture you don't allow a 2 year old to make any decisions period, they also think it's cute but the way we see it, now GD decides what she wears, when she's 12 she'll move on to bigger and better things and there won't be anything they can do, again that will be their problem not ours, although because she's our flesh and blood I'm sure we'll be hurt.
You're absolutely right when you said our expectations were not met. We feel our son has let us down big time, he acts like he was raised by somebody else, again, it's his life and we have to let it be, we've pretty much given up on everything that has to do with them.

[Hope]

Creme,
Thanks for all your consideration and time.  You thought everything out in detail which shows that you are a very caring person.     You are right to say I should try to put negative thoughts out of my head and give them the benefit of the doubt.  I have a problem with dwelling on the negative - I really need to work on that.  Tonight I asked my odd if she remembered her own reaction to an email I sent to all our kids for which my dil/ds were irritated.  My odd told me that sometimes my emails are too direct or businesslike.  She thought it would help if I lightened them up - made them more casual.  She thought it would be best if I worked my questions into the conversation when I see them - in a way that sounds like I'm just interested in them.  She said that she notices that my dil really thinks things through before she speaks and will go around things in such a way that she finds out what she wants without being direct.  If she goes to that much trouble, it must be important to her.  I can see her feeling uneasy if she's use to levity and I come along and just ask what they are planning for a holiday so I know what to tell the relatives when they ask.  Quite honestly, it's embarrassing to me to admit to my siblings on a holiday that I don't know whether my ds/dil will be joining the extended family for dinner b/c I really don't talk to them.  I also think it's inconsiderate of my ds/dil not to rsvp to the person who extended the dinner invitation.  I would love to talk to them, but they haven't initiated contact with me in the five years they have been married, so I feel like I'm a nuisance when I call my ds (dil never answers my calls, so I stopped trying).  Thanks for all your encouragement.  I wish I felt as positive.  My dil wouldn't accept my help at the Christening and she wouldn't even smile at me.  She seemed to be avoiding me and appeared to be hurt.  I think the one-on-one at the salon caused her to be upset with me, but you could be right that it will make her think.  Maybe it planted a seed - who knows?  I think some distance from them is best right now - unless they make contact with me.  I feel like such a nuisance to them and I feel so emotional b/c I feel like I've lost my son and I feel like a stranger to my gs.  It's not that I would push them away if they made a step toward me - I just think they need space from me right now.  We have never had an argument - or a blowout.  They seem irritated at me at times, but we haven't argued.  That's part of the problem - I don't know what's wrong.  But you are correct again - at least she spoke to me and tried to tell me what was bothering her.  That is good - so why do I feel soooooooooo bad?  I keep thinking about how much my dh and I helped them out and how we will do anything they ask............and how much we love them.  Why can't they just accept us and love us back?  I have a hard time with that.  I have to take baby steps with this relationship and I feel so overwhelmed.  I have to start out slow and build on it one step at a time.  I like your advice about how to talk to her - small talk, listening for things about her to get to know her better.  I was looking at the discussion we had as a failure after her treatment towards me at the Christening, but you made me feel like it was a step in the right direction.  Thanks for your advice and encouragement.
Hugs, Hope

[barelythere]

Hope,  I hope things get better for you.  I don't have any answers and believe me I know the absolute desolation about being treated like this.  You do finally stop trying when they won't answer the phone when you call.  It's tiring and it hurts too bad to keep it up.  Who would?  Her issue could simply be that she feels insecure with you or who knows what else?  Regarding your emails?  If they're anything like your posts on here, you're not formal or businesslike at all. You seem warm and kind.  What's been done to us and what's been allowed to be done to us is bad, horribly bad.  I am sure DILs feel pain too but there is no comparison to the loss of the hope of a Daughter and the loss of a son.

[Hope]

Hope, I cannot believe how much your DIL and mine have in common, my DIL's family has the same problems and then some, her father is different, he comes from a very decent family and is a very nice person but they treat him like dirt and don't tell him much of what's going on, DIL's mother and siblings knew that we weren't able to see GD, it wasn't until I told her father that things started to change.  DH and I have detached not by choice but in order to keep our sanity. You see, first it was heartbreaking not to be able to see GD and now that we see her once in a while it's heartbreaking to see how she's being raised and we have no saying in the matter. DH has a very hard time with her diet, DIL is a vegetarian, (to DH that's a sin, LOL), GD eats very little meat if at all, she snacks on junk food all day long, DS has to cook his own meat. They let GD (2 years old) choose what she wants to wear so you can imagine what she looks like when she goes out, nothing turned out the way we dreamed it would be. We have a daughter and another son so hopefully we'll get another shot at it, we're sure things will be a lot different with our DD but in the meantime we're doing the only thing we can do.

Guest1,
It's so hard to let go, isn't it?  We love them so much and want them to be in our lives.  We have to watch them make mistakes and learn from them.  All we can do is be there for them when they need us, show them we love them, and just be good to them.  The hard part is taking that step back so they can come to us rather than us come to them.  And hopefully they will come to us eventually.
My yd/fsil are vegetarians and I know it is difficult to get use to, but after a while I got use to it.  I still panic when I think they might come for dinner b/c I don't know what to make, but they are so good about accepting my lack of choices.  They are very good at making nutritious meals and have found alternative proteins that are good choices.  It honestly doesn't bother me at all that they are vegetarians now and I feel certain that they will raise their children the same, however, they will be careful to provide proper nutrition.  They are both sensible and very intelligent.  My fsil is working toward his doctorate in physics.  I had a huge smile on my face when I read that Luise was interested in quantum physics b/c our fsil asked for a quantum physics book for Christmas, which I provided.  I share your concern about your gd eating junk food all day.  As long as they are permitted to eat junk food, they will not choose healthy food.  My nephew and niece are terrible eaters for that reason and they are somewhat overweight.  But unfortunately you have no control over that.  If it makes you feel more sane to keep your distance, then I think it's the right thing for you to do.  Hopefully after taking a break from each other, things will calm down and you will be able to start your relationship anew.  I wish you all the best with your family.
Hugs, Hope

[Hope]

Hope,  I hope things get better for you.  I don't have any answers and believe me I know the absolute desolation about being treated like this.  You do finally stop trying when they won't answer the phone when you call.  It's tiring and it hurts too bad to keep it up.  Who would?  Her issue could simply be that she feels insecure with you or who knows what else?  Regarding your emails?  If they're anything like your posts on here, you're not formal or businesslike at all. You seem warm and kind.  What's been done to us and what's been allowed to be done to us is bad, horribly bad.  I am sure DILs feel pain too but there is no comparison to the loss of the hope of a Daughter and the loss of a son.

Hi barelythere!
It's so hard letting go, isn't it?  I remember myself not calling my parents or in-laws just to chat; I only called when I had a purpose.  I see some parallels in how we were and how ds/dil are, but I also see some big differences.  We didn't avoid visiting our parents and we didn't push back when a get together was planned.  We visited both sets of parents every Sunday for over ten years until it got to be too much and we ended all the Sunday visits for both sides.  We tried to be fair about spending equal time with both my parents and my dh's - that's where I see the biggest difference.  Our ds/dil get a lot more support and attention from us than we ever got from our parents, yet they don't regard our feelings.  My dil told me when we had our heart-to-heart that she gives her parents a lot of credit for being able to let go - to let them be independent.  She gave an example of how her dad made her play sports in high school, but once she graduated from high school he allowed her to make her own choices.  She said he would tell her that it was her choice - she was an adult now.  I feel like her comment was meant to make me see how we aren't letting go.  Well, I wonder how her parents would feel if all of a sudden she didn't call them any more and didn't answer their calls when they called her and she didn't stop by their house to visit and made it clear that she didn't want them to just drop by their house without checking with them first (her family always just stops by their house without calling).  The truth is, we already have let go of our adult children as far as letting them make their own decisions and allow them to make mistakes and learn from them.  We have to keep our mouths shut quite a bit, but that is different than being shut out of your child's life.  Boy, do I feel frustrated at this whole situation.  You wouldn't believe how much we keep our mouths shut about things we don't approve of - for the sake of allowing them to be themselves.  She doesn't have a clue about what we are going through.  She is basing her feelings on the fact that I still want our kids to get together for family birthdays and holidays.  They see her parents every week, sometimes a few times a week, but she balks at seeing us four times a year to celebrate joint birthdays plus the major holidays.  Of course, she had to put up with us more this year b/c we are the grandparents of their new baby and we have an upcoming wedding for our yd, which means planning a shower that she is helping with (she is in the wedding). 
I wish you weren't going through the drama of being the outsider - and watching them raise your gd in a way that appears to be unhealthy.  I feel your pain and share your feelings about the hope of having other chances with your other children since this one seems to be out of your reach. 
I still hope that in time your relationship will be restored with your distant ds/dil.  I want you to have peace and happiness.
Hugs, Hope

[barelythere]

Thank you, Hope, I wish the same for you.  I guess we have to do what we have to do to be able to take this. Very hard. 

[cremebrulee]

author=Hope link=topic=946.msg18413#msg18413 date=1285038226]
Creme,
Thanks for all your consideration and time.  You thought everything out in detail which shows that you are a very caring person.     You are right to say I should try to put negative thoughts out of my head and give them the benefit of the doubt.  I have a problem with dwelling on the negative - I really need to work on that.  Tonight I asked my odd if she remembered her own reaction to an email I sent to all our kids for which my dil/ds were irritated.  My odd told me that sometimes my emails are too direct or businesslike.  She thought it would help if I lightened them up - made them more casual.  She thought it would be best if I worked my questions into the conversation when I see them - in a way that sounds like I'm just interested in them.  She said that she notices that my dil really thinks things through before she speaks and will go around things in such a way that she finds out what she wants without being direct.  If she goes to that much trouble, it must be important to her.  I can see her feeling uneasy if she's use to levity and I come along and just ask what they are planning for a holiday so I know what to tell the relatives when they ask.  Quite honestly, it's embarrassing to me to admit to my siblings on a holiday that I don't know whether my ds/dil will be joining the extended family for dinner b/c I really don't talk to them.  I also think it's inconsiderate of my ds/dil not to rsvp to the person who extended the dinner invitation.  I would love to talk to them, but they haven't initiated contact with me in the five years they have been married, so I feel like I'm a nuisance when I call my ds (dil never answers my calls, so I stopped trying).  Thanks for all your encouragement.  I wish I felt as positive.  My dil wouldn't accept my help at the Christening and she wouldn't even smile at me.  She seemed to be avoiding me and appeared to be hurt.  I think the one-on-one at the salon caused her to be upset with me, but you could be right that it will make her think.  Maybe it planted a seed - who knows?  I think some distance from them is best right now - unless they make contact with me.  I feel like such a nuisance to them and I feel so emotional b/c I feel like I've lost my son and I feel like a stranger to my gs.  It's not that I would push them away if they made a step toward me - I just think they need space from me right now.  We have never had an argument - or a blowout.  They seem irritated at me at times, but we haven't argued.  That's part of the problem - I don't know what's wrong.  But you are correct again - at least she spoke to me and tried to tell me what was bothering her.  That is good - so why do I feel soooooooooo bad?  I keep thinking about how much my dh and I helped them out and how we will do anything they ask............and how much we love them.  Why can't they just accept us and love us back?  I have a hard time with that.  I have to take baby steps with this relationship and I feel so overwhelmed.  I have to start out slow and build on it one step at a time.  I like your advice about how to talk to her - small talk, listening for things about her to get to know her better.  I was looking at the discussion we had as a failure after her treatment towards me at the Christening, but you made me feel like it was a step in the right direction.  Thanks for your advice and encouragement.
Hugs, Hope

your not going to fail at this due to your attitude, but you've got to stop beating yourself up first of all, that sends out nothing but negative energy and believe me, whatever your sending out is picked up by others...energy is so important, so right now, consentrate on positive thoughts make it a practice, the moment you feel something negative coming on, picture something in your mind that makes you very happy....and carry that around with you until the negative goes away....

I've so noted on this forum, how we woman can turn anything our DIL's do, into a negative....don't do that...ever, b/c unless someone tells you right out, what they are thinking, you cannot assume....I mean, while reading some of the posts....try and catch that...and then over come that, and whisp any negative thoughts away....I thread it as, if they don't want to tell me, it's none of my business, and poof, it's gone....smile a lot when your around her...help make her feel comfortable....and if she didn't look at you because it was due to your conversation, she'll get over it...you cannot live your life always worried about how someone else is going to take you....ignore when she is acting negative....and if you feel there is something wrong, later, down the road, you could say, is there something wrong, something I might be able to help you with, and if she replies no, then move on....mentally.

You see, if your constantly asking someone if something is wrong, well, they get really irritated....so, work on reading her, getting to know her moods...I think it's perfect that she's doing your hair.  When she's talking to you, make certain you are fixated on memorizing what she is saying about herself...so you know.

For instance, I know my DIL loves hot turkey sandwhiches....they don't make them anywhere where they live...so when they came, I called around to see if they were serving them at several resturants near my home....and when we were choosing a place, I said, that I had called around to see where they were serving them, and you should have seen her look at me....she was shocked that I did that for her...and it would have been something I do for anyone, so it wasn't out of my character to win her....

it's the small baby steps...but try not to over analyze her, b/c if you do, you will most likely take all the negative stuff and turn it into, "Oh it must be b/c she doesn't like me, or, she's doing this on purpose to push my buttons"....ignore that stuff...b/c if you look for the negative hard enough, your going to find it, whether it's there or not....and in most cases it's not.

Hope I can't tell you how extactic I am for you....you ARE making progress and do come back and report when you can....

so why do I feel soooooooooo bad?  I keep thinking about how much my dh and I helped them out and how we will do anything they ask............and how much we love them.  Why can't they just accept us and love us back?  I have a hard time with that.  I have to take baby steps with this relationship and I feel so overwhelmed.  I have to start out slow and build on it one step at a time.  I like your advice about how to talk to her - small talk, listening for things about her to get to know her better.  I was looking at the discussion we had as a failure after her treatment towards me at the Christening, but you made me feel like it was a step in the right direction.

you feel so bad, b/c your hurt, you don't know what caused this, and your son isn't the same anymore....but it's probably not b/c of you....Hope, perhaps this is difficult to understand, but when our son's marry they change extremely and not for any negative reason, but b/c lifeis moving faster for them now, that they became a husband...they are now taking on responsibility...and that's sometimes hard to adapt to...all of a sudden, they went from having a mother, taking care of them, to now being the caregiver, breadwinner, etc....so of course your going to see big big changes...and, when they first marry, they are so excited to start they're lives together and they want to break the embiblical chord....so, they stay away for awhile, plus, they need quality privet time to mentally become intimate and get to know each other....when they work all day, they don't want to come home, be on the sofa snuggling and have mom call....they can't tell mom what is bothering them, b/c they don't want to hurt her feelings or start a huge war, so they distance themselves, but, if mom can play her cards right, they will return....in the meantime, use this time wisely to your best ability to understand and grow, so that when they return, you'll be more confident and able to stop walking on egg shells....plus when you give them space, they get curious and really want to know what's up....when you don't pressure them about coming over for this or that, they will want to more, b/c your not making them feel obligated...I wouldn't wantmy son to be there if he didn't want to, or if she didn't want to, not because they don't like me, but b/c they're tired, they want to be at they're house, or whatever reason, but we've got to stop analysing and looking for reasons that are negative.

And one last thing, stop doing everything for them, they view that as a negative, they want to be on they're own, buy they're own things, when you do so much for them, they feel as if your trying to buy them and it makes them feel so obligated to you...I know this b/c my MIL did that...it drove me nuts...so, stop, let them live they're own lives...I know it's b/c you want to help, and b/c you love them so much, however, they don't view that as you do...and it pushes them away....if I can express anything, just leave them alone, let them come to you if they need help....stop overwhelming them with giving them everything, and oh, one more very important thing, listen to them when they speak...if they say, no thank you, hear them saying no, that is the biggest mistake people make today, they don't hear others saying no to them.  If they say, well, we made other plans, don't take it as if it's personal...maybe they did...if she says, oh, I don't know, don't pursue, allow them they're identities and decissions.  Oft times we mothers make huge mistakes in refusing to hear them saying no, or no thank you without using the word no. 

Oh good luck and dont' be afraid, be yourself....give them time...think of them as nothing more then someone you just met and get to know them....see, your son has changed, but it's not b/c of any negative reason you might think of, it's b/c he wants to be a grown up now, and he has all new responsibilities, he is becoming a man...view him as such and allow him...give him that chance....and her to....they're young and need time to get to know you again....in the end, it gets easier and easier. 

Much love sent your way

Oh I'm so exciting b/c your understanding and not resisting with excuses of why you did this or that...and it was ok to do it, well, lady, your finally realizing that while it might be ok in your soul, your DIL feels and thinks differently, and that's ok...you just have started to realize that, it's nothing personal against you....

big big hugs

[Hope]

Thanks for your thoughts barelythere and Creme.  Loads of thought provoking stuff, Creme.  I will have to read it over and over.  You are right about the negativity - I grew up with nothing but negativity from my Dad, even though he was a good man, and I know it's not healthy.  Changing yourself requires a lot of time, so I must be patient, and keep working on it.  My odd is so good at being positive - she's so refreshing to be around.  I am grateful for your efforts and big heart.
Hugs, Hope

[Hope]

Creme,
I just wanted to clarify something so you don't have the wrong idea.  My dh and I have never been the type to interfere with our dil/ds.  We have always allowed them their privacy.  I use to call my ds, but not every week, only occassionally and we never just dropped by.  On the other hand, my dil's mother spends the night there fairly often to watch our gs (even though she's married) and my dil has told me a couple years ago that she talks to her mom every few days.  When I saw my ds at the Christening this past Sunday, he mentioned to me (with a great deal of frustration) that he didn't even enjoy the Christening because of all the commotion and he said he wasn't happy about his mil spending the night again that night.  From what I can gather, our dil's family just takes charge of everything - such as the Christening.  I am guilty of being negative, but I don't interfere in their lives or decisions. 
Thanks again for your helpful posts.
Love and hugs, Hope

[luise.volta]

We are all negative at times. It's nothing to feel guilty about...it's just human. Show me a person who is always positive and I will show you a liar.     What we're all trying to do is not fall into the negative pit...the black hole and stay there too long because it distorts out perception of reality. Sending love...

[cremebrulee]

Creme,
I just wanted to clarify something so you don't have the wrong idea.  My dh and I have never been the type to interfere with our dil/ds.  We have always allowed them their privacy.  I use to call my ds, but not every week, only occassionally and we never just dropped by.  On the other hand, my dil's mother spends the night there fairly often to watch our gs (even though she's married) and my dil has told me a couple years ago that she talks to her mom every few days.  When I saw my ds at the Christening this past Sunday, he mentioned to me (with a great deal of frustration) that he didn't even enjoy the Christening because of all the commotion and he said he wasn't happy about his mil spending the night again that night.  From what I can gather, our dil's family just takes charge of everything - such as the Christening.  I am guilty of being negative, but I don't interfere in their lives or decisions. 
Thanks again for your helpful posts.
Love and hugs, Hope

Thank you Hope, but honestly, I wish you wouldn't feel as if you had to defend your position in this.....I'm just throwing ideas out there....I don't know if they apply to your situation or not, when I'm writing, I just honestly remember things I've read other DIL's write in other forums, reasearch and my own experience....also books....and self help articles....

[Pooh]

You know Hope, something you just posted made me think.  It seems those of us that don't intrude, call often or just drop by are the ones having problems.

My DS has told me before that his MIL drives him nuts too.  She will come over practically every day, call constantly and drag them to family events.  I always "ask".

I don't know how to explain what I mean except that because we are trying to be fair, it is easy to just forget about us, out of relief we are not that way and that the DS doesn't have to worry about us.  But the FOO just pretty much does what they please is why they seem to get more time with them?

So our perception that they spend more time with the FOO could just be that the FOO forces themselves on them and our DS doesn't say much because he doesn't want to fight with DIL?  And because he knows we will not force ourselves and still love them, the peace is kept because we are not around, so he doesn't have to defend us to DIL?

Hmmmm.....I'm on a roll today........