Useful Book

[jill]

Another great book is "Healing from Family Rifts" by Mark Sichel, CSW......Jill

[kathleen]

I am sure I am a "Toxic" mother-in-law, as considered by my abandoning son and his wife and the author of this disgusting book

I find such global statements as "toxic in-laws"  unworthy of discussion.  Just as I would a book entitled "Toxic Daughter-in-laws."

But, of course, people make a great deal of money out of offing families for such purposes.  And of course this woman finds
an audience among young women who wish to control their husbands and decimate his family of origin due to their own psychopathology.

I also find it extremely offensive to entitle any human being as "toxic."  We are not born poisoned, nor do we somehow
become poisoned, thus we are not "toxic." What a terrible label to give to any human being.  What a terrible legacy to pass to grandchildren.

Kathleen

[Pen]

Kathleen, the "t" word rubs me the wrong way, too. My SM used it to describe me when I asked if I could occasionally speak to my DF on the phone w/o her listening in. When I questioned DF about it, he said, "Well, some people are just toxic," copying her phrase. Since then it makes me gag when I hear people so labeled. What a horrible way to dehumanize someone and make them unworthy of any consideration or interaction.

I haven't read the book - the title put me off, obviously. The other books mentioned sound interesting, especially "When Parents Hurt." I passed that title on to a friend whose son just cut her off. I hope it helps her; I haven't read it either.

[LaurieS]

Toxic - Yes, it is a word that has been tossed around here about as much as narcissistic.  I haven't read the book either but I'm sure that any MIL with a thought  process of her own can probably be labeled 'toxic'.  Good thing I wasn't labeled before I became pregnant with my son, goodness with a high level of toxicity in my system, he could have been born with 3 heads.   

[Pooh]

Ok, I am going to take the opposite stance on this one...Lol.  I find the title just that...a book title.  I read Women are from Venus and Men are from Mars years ago, but I didn't actually think either one of us originated from those planets.  I think a title of a book is just like a title of movies, tv shows, whatever...meant to capture the reader or movie goer.

The word "toxic" doesn't bother me, because I do think people can be "toxic".  I think this one boils down to personal experience.  Like Pen said, she has a reason to not like the word because it brings back a bad memory.  I don't like the word "hater" because my DIL used to say all the time when something wasn't going her way, "Don't be a hater".  Still makes me cringe every time I hear someone use that phrase now.

I have read many books that when I am done, I say, "Ok, that idiot doesn't know what she/he is talking about."  But I know that somewhere, there is an audience for it.  If I want someone to agree with me all the time, I could walk in the bookstore and pick up 10 copies right now of books that were written exactly with what I wanted to hear.  But just like on this forum, I like to hear different perspectives and so I read all kinds of different things.  I may not agree with the entire concept of the book, but I usually learn something. 

I call my DIL narcissistic because Luise says we can't use curse words on here and that is the nicer word!

[LaurieS]

LOL... ok you do that Pooh... I think people tend to latch onto words as they do a new clothing fashion.  Narcissistic, happens to be a member of the word of the month club... that's not to say that it can not and should not apply to some people, but it seems like everyone of us can carry a title.  Mine is b.... oh wait can we talk about female dogs here?  I thought Brittney Spears, Toxic.. was a catchy tune but once again to many are making a "T" symbol with their fingers like they are warding off a vampire, with a cross.

But this does give me the opportunity to ask Kathleen about something that has bothered me for a while and I can not find an answer.  Pooh you brought up the phrase, "Don't be a hater" or I've heard people say, "You're such a hater"  my least favorite, "don't hate on me" my question... Is this proper grammar?  Like you Pooh, those phrases just grate on my nerves.

[cremebrulee]

words dont' bother me either Pooh, they're just words, and they can't hurt you....unless you let them....

My Take, I think we have become way to sensitive about words and so many things in this world that we used to laugh at, and sometimes wonder how a stand up comedian like Rodney Dangerfield, Don Rickles, and many others who not only took jabs at ethnics, but also political figures, and such...those guys made me belly laugh and back then, people could find humor in things...much more quickly then today....

today, so many things offend us, that I have to wonder, if this generation and the next have become way over sensitive to the point of needing to control others....in a big way....

I am Italian, and loved those ol Italian jokes, and the jabs they took at everyone, including the Dean Martin Roasts....wow, were they ever fun...

My point is, my take is, we get to hung up on the small stuff, why is that, is it because today, our worlds are much smaller?  I think that has a lot to do with it, also, to me, it seems as if people are way to sensitive about everything?  Why?  Because they choose to be...

Like the lady who fell in the fountain texting, that video went all over the world, and now, what does she do, of course, she is suing the mall for releasing the tapes, why, Because poor thing, everyone's laughing at her....

Yanno what, she gave a whole lot of people joy...in watching that video...for a few moments, until the time she fell in that fountain people laughed...and I mean laughed....and felt good....we all for a few seconds forgot about our simple, mundane worlds and troubles and laughed....thanks to her...but, she is suing the mall....

Words are words, and when people laugh, with you or at you, that is the best medicine in the world and laughing is for free, so rather then take offense to such words....I laugh...or don't even give it a second thought...why?  Because people are allowed to think and feel as they like, so, if you can't find humor in life, then what's life all about....Censorship is the root of all evil and when you start taking offense to words, well....  That worries me....

Just my feelings and 2 cents...and how I choose to look at things....I'd rather laugh then cry, and would rather look at the positive then negative, and be happy rather then choose to look for all the things in this world that are going to upset me....?

[LaurieS]

Since words are one of our main means of communication, it would be hard for me to accept that they are simply words.  Words are often used to comfort a hurt child, words express how we feel upon learning of someones passing, words can be weapons laced with hatred.

In the right setting, any single word can bring laughter, or sorrow, depending on how it's used.  If a word was just a word would be be referring to some words as "The N word"?  I'll agree that people need to lighten up and I too feel that we've all become to sensitive.. but the example of the lady texting and falling into a fountain.  Did the mall profit from her embarrassment? Who did they sell that video to?  Is the reason for having security videos in public places for security purposes or for the worlds entertainment.  I would probably laugh at the video and then I'd sue the mall for sure.

I'd love for Kathleen to jump back into this discussion  Since Kathleen made her living off of delivering words, I'd like to hear her take.

[cremebrulee]

Laurie
regarding the woman who fell into the fountain....

Our neighbors had a dog, which I was terrified of....they used to let it out free and it was a bitter, I was walking on the other side of the street, and watching the dog so closely, I walked dead on into a lamp post....and laughed like crazy afterwards...

The woman was texting...wasn't watching where she was going...I've had many people do that, and almost walk right into me....so, yeah, I think it's funny...it was her misgiving....she created the issue, she is responsible, the mall didn't Sell it to anyone, it was placed on U-Tube, so maybe someone else caught it on they're cell...the woman claims embarrassment and is so upset b/c everyone is laughing....tough, and maybe she learned her lesson, b/c maybe she also drives and does texting?  Who knows, maybe she doesn't, however, she is responsible for her own actions, and she goofed...Remember the show, "People do the darnest things"  They'd have a field day with this one...or how bout American's funniest video's....frankly the woman should be laughing at herself, thanking fate for a lesson learned....b/c of her someone could get really hurt....

Using the N word, is going way beyond the scope of funny....and not what I'm referring to, that to me is an unacceptable word, and as most probably feel....however, this thread bought up the word toxic, and narcissistic....who other then a licensed doctor could effectively diagnose someone's behavior....

Yes, words are words and we all throw them around....I'm not talking about the far end of the scope or the extreme, I'm talking about today, everyone is offended by everything, so much so, that we have to be very careful what we say....and I think, personally, from my point of view...not yours or anyone else's here...it's foolish and controlling...fine, if someone feels that way, I cannot dictate to them how to feel....but me, what works is to try and see the humor in things more so then take offense, and laugh, laugh, laugh until the cows come home....

and I say that a lot, as a joke, ("please don't hate me," along with a funny face) and get a laugh out of it, b/c it's way beyond the scope of what that person and I are discussing...If it grinds you fine...what grinds me, is when people constantly say, I hate this or I hate that....bad way of presenting yourself and to me, seems rather juvinile...however, that's people, and I can't stop people from talking or feeling....the way they do...no matter how I feel, that's life and people....and we all come in different packages....and I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, this is strickly my point of view, which doesn't make you wrong Laurie....
it's simply the way two different people feel about things...me, I'd rather look for the humor and laugh....

[kathleen]

To me, labeling people with trite words and phrases is part of the problem we are all facing.  How cheap and easy for sons and daughters and their spouses to dump their "toxic" family members.  Who want to be around a "toxic" person, anyway?  Great excuse to get them out of your life.

To me, this kind of labeling is no different than racial, religious, or gender slurs.  It is taking an entire group---mother-in-laws---and giving them a derogatory name.  It is also a meaningless name.  What is "toxic?"  Do we smell bad?  Are we full of poison in our blood?  Is it possible we are contagious and can give some dread disease to the precious grandchildren?  Think of some religious slurs you've heard about certain religions and see if they aren't very similar kinds of labels.

Toxic shmoxic.  Words and labels do hurt and create real damage, as evidenced by races in this country that have suffered for centuries because of slurs, labeling, and put-downs, kept out of employment and educational opportunities and worse.  (Take any weeping five-year-old coming home from kindergarten with a bad story about being called names; do you still think words don't hurt?)  That also goes for what has happened to women, the labeling, the putdowns. 

Such books also create an ingroup:  we are the good people, the non-toxic people, and our MIL's are the toxic people.  That is very inviting to a lot of folks.  It's like the old cowboy movies with the white horse guys as the good guys and the black horse guys as the bad guys.  Simple, easy, pat, no thinking involved.  Cool mental entertainment for a boring Saturday afternoon.  Then you can watch the football game instead of having Mom-and-Dad-in-law over for dinner.

I'm sorry, Pooh, I always appreciate your perspectives, but this time I have to disagree with you.  I feel this book is a sick attack on a group of which I'm a member.  (I've looked at the book, but I certainly would not waste money buying it.)  I hope I have not been rude, but I can't let this one go by without comment.   It really makes me upset.  I have stood up against a town in a very meaningful way once against bigotry and prejudice and will keep on doing so.  That's exactly what books like this purvey: it's just not widely known that this is bigotry against a group in a different disguise.  You may have a different take on the word "bigotry."

That's all I have to say.

Kathleen

[LaurieS]

You are misunderstanding what is being said about the word hate.. it's not hate that I was asking about but the word "hater".. do not hate me.. makes sense.. I'm asking about the use of "do not be a hater, or you are such a hater" etc.

Ok, so we have a word that offends most people.. the dreaded "N-word", yet it is a vital part of most black comedians performances.  Once again any word can be used to arouse a variety of emotions.  The word toxic that you do not take offense with is not offensive in itself, that I agree with, but used here it is often meant to explain a deep resentment of one's behavior. 

Back to the video... I agree, people do some of the dumbest things and many times I thought that even I could have won the 10,000.00 grand prize on Funniest Videos... but the difference is.. the people in the video signed releases saying that they didn't mind them being used.  Once again this mall had no business releasing even a portion of a tape to the public.  Surveillance tapes are for our safety, and by design only released to law enforcement etc... not to take exerts for entertainment purposes.   

[cremebrulee]

To me, labeling people with trite words and phrases is part of the problem we are all facing.  How cheap and easy for sons and daughters and their spouses to dump their "toxic" family members.  Who want to be around a "toxic" person, anyway?  Great excuse to get them out of your life.

To me, this kind of labeling is no different than racial, religious, or gender slurs.  It is taking an entire group---mother-in-laws---and giving them a derogatory name.  It is also a meaningless name.  What is "toxic?"  Do we smell bad?  Are we full of poison in our blood?  Is it possible we are contagious and can give some dread disease to the precious grandchildren?  Think of some religious slurs you've heard about certain religions and see if they aren't very similar kinds of labels.

Toxic shmoxic.  Words and labels do hurt and create real damage, as evidenced by races in this country that have suffered for centuries because of slurs, labeling, and put-downs, kept out of employment and educational opportunities and worse.  (Take any weeping five-year-old coming home from kindergarten with a bad story about being called names; do you still think words don't hurt?)  That also goes for what has happened to women, the labeling, the putdowns. 

Such books also create an ingroup:  we are the good people, the non-toxic people, and our MIL's are the toxic people.  That is very inviting to a lot of folks.  It's like the old cowboy movies with the white horse guys as the good guys and the black horse guys as the bad guys.  Simple, easy, pat, no thinking involved.  Cool mental entertainment for a boring Saturday afternoon.  Then you can watch the football game instead of having Mom-and-Dad-in-law over for dinner.

I'm sorry, Pooh, I always appreciate your perspectives, but this time I have to disagree with you.  I feel this book is a sick attack on a group of which I'm a member.  (I've looked at the book, but I certainly would not waste money buying it.)  I hope I have not been rude, but I can't let this one go by without comment.   It really makes me upset.  I have stood up against a town in a very meaningful way once against bigotry and prejudice and will keep on doing so.  That's exactly what books like this purvey: it's just not widely known that this is bigotry against a group in a different disguise.  You may have a different take on the word "bigotry."

That's all I have to say.

Kathleen

Kathleen, I can see your point of view and understand it, however, my question is, where do you draw a line?  I mean, what is happening is, that people are becoming offended by everything...and to me, they are insisting on censorship of traditions and values, and the ability to laugh at things....while I understand, where your coming from and do agree, some things are just nasty and bullying, in the same, they are just words and words can only hurt you if you allow them to.

Also, as far a bigotry of certain nationalities, it's come a long long way from back in the 1800's.  Your never going to be able to control those who still live they're lives hating....and those people are shallow minded and to me, very unintellectual....

I don't think your being rude....and understand the sensitivity of your feelings...on bigotry and prejudice, and because you had a problem with it, well it makes me sad....yanno why, b/c you are scared for life, due to someone else's hate....so, now when ever you hear just the slightest comment, it's bigotry and prejudice, just Like I am hypersensitive to child molestors....and right away want to "HANG EM!" 

However, I honestly feel, that there are way to many people who hold on to those words as an excuse to not work and take, take, take....and use them to they're credit and our wallets...

So, I guess what I'm trying to say, there are two sides to this....and I do know a lot of DIL's out there who do not have problems with they're MIL's who would pick up the book and go...hmmmm, I'm curious to how this author feels and what they have to say, not that it is going to sway they're convictions/personal institituions, in any way, maybe if nothing more, then for a good laugh....but these women are not super sensitive....

When we experience something bad in our lives, it takes away innocence, and we tend to go to the other end of the spectrum...instead of remaining nuetral and being able to sort the dirty laundry from the clean...simply ignoring it, and getting on with life...not wasting any time, freting over such things....

Does that make sense?

[Pen]

The word "toxic" to me describes a substance that is universally poisonous and harmful to all life. Toxic materials are immediately contained in strong containers and then carefully disposed of. I can't think of anyone around me, even those who've hurt me deeply, who qualify for that label. Again, the term puts a human being into the category of trash to be quarantined, cut off, and ignored. It should be used sparingly and only for those who truly qualify, not thrown around casually by inexperienced young people to promote their agenda of cutting off ILs.

Kids use the terms "retarded" or "gay" derisively; as the mother of a precious developmentally disabled child, and the relative/close friend of many wonderful gay people, I find those terms offensive. Those words separate "us" from "them" thus making "them" unworthy of the rights and liberties we should all have as humans. A co-worker actually told me my disabled daughter was "stealing resources from the normal people in our community." He felt meeting her needs was a misuse of funds since she "wasn't going anywhere anyway." Oh, he added "no offense.." making his hateful comments OK in his mind, I guess. I can't imagine ever thinking it was acceptable to talk about someone's child that way, but this man had dehumanized my precioius daughter making it fine to dispose of her.

Any terms that are directed at a person, or group of people, and are meant to dehumanize that group or express hatred for them, are more offensive to me than the f-bomb or other swear words. Not that I enjoy hearing gutter language all day long (been to a teen gathering place or construction site lately?) but I'd rather hear that than hate language.

[Pooh]

Although I appreciate the "I'm Sorry Pooh" it is totally unnecessary I assure you.  I love your perspectives too and I love that we all don't agree on everything, or else I would never examine the other side.

I guess I should have explained myself better.  I do think there are words that are very hateful and hurtful.  But I also think that it is the context of the words and how we use them that is hateful.  Not the actual words.  And I do believe there are toxic In-Laws, but I don't label the entire group of in-laws that way.  Just like I have a difficult DIL, but I don't think the majority of DILs are that way just because mine is.  I call my DH "Idiot".  Someone hearing this may think I am being mean and telling him he is not intelligent.  But the truth is, we love to watch "Everybody loves Raymond."  And she calls Raymond idiot all the time and it has become an inside joke to us.  But I wouldn't look at a coworker and call them idiot, because that would be offensive. 

I just ordered my DH a book off amazon called "How to Work for a Jerk", because he is dealing with a very difficult boss right now and is trying to figure out how to work with him better, because he is struggling.  I have a wonderful boss and have no need for the book, but I will read it to maybe give me some insight on how to work better with difficult people.  I do see what you are saying, I really do and I agree that no entire group should be labeled.

[Pooh]

Pen, we were posting at the same time and I didn't see yours.  What your co-worker said was just cruel.  No one with handicaps, be that physical or mental should ever be made fun of or made to feel badly over their situation.  Some people are just plain stupid.  I think I posted on another thread about my best friend being gay.  I go out with her and her other friends some, and they call each other that constantly, but I wouldn't do it because it wouldn't be appropriate for me to do it.  My Mother used to say to people all the time, "I can talk about my kids, but you can't."