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Started by pam1, August 09, 2010, 09:26:50 AM

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pam1

Miss Priss, that's my worry too.  I think no matter how loving or nice we handle this that it will just not turn out well.

I thought some more today why I've let MIL for a long time rule us and sway us with emotions and I started remembering my grandmother and stepmother.  My mother and father divorced when my brother and I were teenagers and then father remarried rather quickly.  (both parents still to this day are friendly)  My stepmother did a lot of things to our grandmother and try to ruin especially my father and my brothers relationship with grandma. 

Any gift to my Stepmom from Grandma was a hidden motive.  Anything Grandma said, was a hidden motive to insult Stepmom.  If Grandma said all her kids like broccoli growing up, Stepmom would come home ranting that Grandma told her that she was a bad mom b/c her kids didn't eat enough veggies. It was kind of crazy, I thought.  Sure, Grandma was different than Stepmom, but she wasn't doing anything on purpose.  I remember specifically Grandma bought some towels for Stepmom b/c she saw them, they matched Stepmoms bathroom and she thought of Stepmom.  It wasn't a birthday or anything, it was just a regular day.  And it was a regular thing Grandma would do for anyone in the family, she'd see something and be reminded of someone.  Anyway, Grandma gave Stepmom the towels and Stepmom went ballistic when we got home!  Grandma was telling her she was a horrible housekeeper and that women are lowly servants to serve men!

And anything to do with my father or brother was even worse.  Stepmom would hammer on and on that Grandma was trying to take them over.  So slowly but surely, Grandma wasn't invited to things that she normally was.  Stepmom would invite her parents on vacation, then give Grandma pictures.  It was all kind of horrible.

Anyway, I think I've been so hyper aware over my own sensitivity to MIL so that I wouldn't do what my Stepmom did.  It started out little but then began to snowball.  Every word was taken the wrong way, any time Grandma voiced an opinion, she was shoving advice down Stepmoms throat.  You get the drift.  When problems started with my own MIL, I think I turned the other way b/c I know how little things can ruin a family relationship.
People throw rocks at things that shine - Taylor Swift

pam1

Quote from: Pen on August 10, 2010, 08:48:12 AM
Wow, Pam1, this is very similar to my DIL's FOO...we backed off so as not to be hovering or overbearing and they think it's weird that we're not more demanding. DS isn't buying it; he told us he appreciated us not giving unsolicited advice or demanding time on holidays. He stepped up and told them that he wanted some holiday time with his FOO, that we all loved each other but weren't going to emotionally blackmail anyone. It must have been hard for him to do so - they've also been very fun & generous, but are quite able to be horrid when crossed.

Now, that doesn't mean I don't feel like throwing a fit and screaming sometimes. I'd love to get a free pass to say everything I've ever wanted to say to DIL, her FOO, and DS...I'm sure I could rant and rave with the worst of them. However, without that magical free pass, I'd lose everything. I have to be very careful about what I say to friends as well...you never know what could wend it's way back to DIL or DS. Loose lips and all that  :P

That's great about your DS, Pen.  I'm betting that he will get there soon, once you see it, it's not as hard as before when you were in the dark about what you were doing wrong.  I'm hoping your DS wife will start to see the light soon too.  THAT is the hardest part.  I'm lucky in that DH will listen when I talk and will examine his own interactions with his family, so many spouses seem to brush off the other spouse and just say that's just the way their family is. 

I'm glad I met you here, you sound a lot like my FOO and I think it was good for me to read your posts. 
People throw rocks at things that shine - Taylor Swift

elsieshaye

Pam, I'd suggest two things.  One is that you not have a separate meeting where you tell your MIL what's going to happen.  That pays way too much attention to her and gives her way too much power.  By meeting separately, you give her the idea that she has control, and that you and your DH are supplicants.  I personally would handle it by just quietly making plans with your family, and then telling her no closer to the time of the holiday and letting the tantrums fall as they may. 

The second thing I'd suggest is to get you and DH (but especially DH) into counseling.  He's been trained from infancy to roll over and give in, and right now has nothing in his repertoire except giving in or blowing up.  He doesn't want to blow up, so he's scared of giving in.  Some time with a counselor may help him get some perspective on why he lets her get under his skin so much.  There are also some really good books on toxic parents that he may get something positive out of.  It's his mother, so it's primarily his issue, since you have a lot less power in the relationship with her than he does.  (And you can't protect him from his mommy - he has to learn to protect himself from her rages and tears.) 
This too shall pass.  All is well.

cremebrulee

I agree with elsieshaye

also, never ever get into a situation with someone your having a problem with alone, always always have someone else there with you...like hubby....that way, she cannot lie about what was said....or whomever your dealing with....it's simply a safe precautionary....

miss_priss

REALLY good advice Elsieshaye!!! 

When the "stinky fish" in a situation really is the mother (sometimes its not, but sometimes it is!), DILs have to keep in mind that DH grew up with that situation, he's used to it, and he has been conditioned how to respond to it in a way that keeps mommy happy whether that is sweeping it under the rug to avoid the "scene" she causes, or blowing up at her and causing a fight, which makes her the "victim" of a son who yells at her.  Either way, his reactions to her behavior have 20+ years of her reinforcement behind them.  As those sons become adults and realize that mommy's actions are manipulative, cumbersome, etc, and he tries to change his own reactions to her, it can throw a real "wrench" into the system as mommy knows it, and in my own experience....that flew over like a lead balloon. 

I think it got down to the very worst between my DH and his mother when he started setting boundaries.  "Mom, if you curse at me, call me an ugly name, or raise your voice in my home, I will ask you to leave."  She literally rolled her eyes and laughed at him.  She didn't raise her son to know what boundaries were or how to set them, and thus she got away with treating her son like mud his whole life (cursing, screaming, name-calling any time he did something wrong, or when he didn't give her what she wanted).  When I came into the picture, it was easy for me to see her true colors, and rather quickly too, because I was not accustomed to that kind of treatment.  It was a shock to me, that a mother could treat her son that way.  When I asked him about it, for the first bit of our relationship he just shrugged it off like it didn't happen.  When I got fed up with how she treated him (and me), I let loose on her.  I admit it, I let her have it.  It didn't help anything...I know that now!  That reaction was EXACTLY what she was trying to get out of me.  Eventually hubby and I got into counseling, where we learned to deal with her by NOT dealing with her.  That's when I learned to smile at her rude and snarky comments and go on about my business.  IT DROVE HER MAD, that I would not react to her.  And eventually hubby had enough of how she was treating me, and the cursing and yelling she gave him, and he set a boundary.  Most importantly, he let go of the outcome.  He gave her a choice to make, she made the bad choice, and he stood by the consequence.  They haven't spoken in months. 

Pam1 - I don't want to scare you, but your MIL sounds so similar to her that I think you need to be prepared for all potential outcomes.  At the end of the day, this isn't YOUR issue to handle, it's BOTH of you, together, but since it's his mom, he needs to take the brunt of her reaction and deflect that off you.  I think counseling would be a great step for you two.  At least you'd be more prepared for her reactions and you can learn how to respond as a team and remain intact. 

MagicGram

Put the woman on a schedule.  Decide how often you want to see her and call her.  Let her know that she'll see you on Saturday mornings and you will call her on Wednesday evening; all of her concerns will be dealt with on those two days.  (of course choose what days are best for you).  Ignore her on other days, leave emails unanswered, don't return calls.  If FIL and SIL call, explain the new policy and ask them to respect it, or put them on a Saturday and Wednesday schedule too. 

Your MIL will test your resolve.  You may find that you will have to set up a penalty, if she calls on Tuesday, she forfeits a week of contact.  It should take 3 months to a year to retrain her depending on how immature she is. Behavior modification works even on psychotics, it can work on your MIL too.   Ask her about her activities, encourage her to join groups and causes and find other interests.   She probably won't want to, if she is immature, she probably does not get along well with her peers who WILL not tolerant her behavior.  If she has no problem making friends, then her behavior with you is willfully designed to manipulate. 

Tell people who call on her behalf, that you will not discuss her with them, if it's important enough issue for her, she will discuss it with your herself, if she can't do it, it's not that important to be discussed with anyone.  If she complains of her heart being broken, depression and life having no meaning because she's been abandonned by her family, suggest she see a therapist and get counseling. 

When she discusses something not manipulative with you or focused on positive things in her life, show great interest and reward her with more time.  When she complains, accuses, whines or cries, identify her behavior, "Mom you are whining.  I'll talk to you on Wednesday." and hang up don't talk to her again until Wednesday. 

Say no.  No to Xmas, no to plans you don't want, no to visits with your family.  But if she wants to see them while they are here please arrange something, even if it's to go over for coffee for an hour after dinner.   If she impignes on your family visit, be tolerant, but double the number of transgressions, and deprive her of her Saturday and Wednesday contacts to make up that number.  She will eventually learn to respect your decisions, IF you are consistent and after the penalty is paid always come back pleasantly.  .  It will take a while.  And she will never like it.  Remember she does not have to like anything, she only has to accept it, and she doesn't even have to accept it with good grace, although she'll be happier if she does.

zIt's terrible when you have to raise your parents, but sometimes the only alternative is misery or cut off,.

barelythere

Quote from: MagicGram on August 21, 2010, 07:28:36 PM
Put the woman on a schedule.  Decide how often you want to see her and call her.  Let her know that she'll see you on Saturday mornings and you will call her on Wednesday evening; all of her concerns will be dealt with on those two days.  (of course choose what days are best for you).  Ignore her on other days, leave emails unanswered, don't return calls.  If FIL and SIL call, explain the new policy and ask them to respect it, or put them on a Saturday and Wednesday schedule too. 

Your MIL will test your resolve.  You may find that you will have to set up a penalty, if she calls on Tuesday, she forfeits a week of contact.  It should take 3 months to a year to retrain her depending on how immature she is. Behavior modification works even on psychotics, it can work on your MIL too.   Ask her about her activities, encourage her to join groups and causes and find other interests.   She probably won't want to, if she is immature, she probably does not get along well with her peers who WILL not tolerant her behavior.  If she has no problem making friends, then her behavior with you is willfully designed to manipulate. 

Tell people who call on her behalf, that you will not discuss her with them, if it's important enough issue for her, she will discuss it with your herself, if she can't do it, it's not that important to be discussed with anyone.  If she complains of her heart being broken, depression and life having no meaning because she's been abandonned by her family, suggest she see a therapist and get counseling. 

When she discusses something not manipulative with you or focused on positive things in her life, show great interest and reward her with more time.  When she complains, accuses, whines or cries, identify her behavior, "Mom you are whining.  I'll talk to you on Wednesday." and hang up don't talk to her again until Wednesday. 

Say no.  No to Xmas, no to plans you don't want, no to visits with your family.  But if she wants to see them while they are here please arrange something, even if it's to go over for coffee for an hour after dinner.   If she impignes on your family visit, be tolerant, but double the number of transgressions, and deprive her of her Saturday and Wednesday contacts to make up that number.  She will eventually learn to respect your decisions, IF you are consistent and after the penalty is paid always come back pleasantly.  .  It will take a while.  And she will never like it.  Remember she does not have to like anything, she only has to accept it, and she doesn't even have to accept it with good grace, although she'll be happier if she does.

zIt's terrible when you have to raise your parents, but sometimes the only alternative is misery or cut off,.

My God, you do have that all wrapped up don't you?

pam1

Quote from: MagicGram on August 21, 2010, 07:28:36 PM
Put the woman on a schedule.  Decide how often you want to see her and call her.  Let her know that she'll see you on Saturday mornings and you will call her on Wednesday evening; all of her concerns will be dealt with on those two days.  (of course choose what days are best for you).  Ignore her on other days, leave emails unanswered, don't return calls.  If FIL and SIL call, explain the new policy and ask them to respect it, or put them on a Saturday and Wednesday schedule too. 

Your MIL will test your resolve.  You may find that you will have to set up a penalty, if she calls on Tuesday, she forfeits a week of contact.  It should take 3 months to a year to retrain her depending on how immature she is. Behavior modification works even on psychotics, it can work on your MIL too.   Ask her about her activities, encourage her to join groups and causes and find other interests.   She probably won't want to, if she is immature, she probably does not get along well with her peers who WILL not tolerant her behavior.  If she has no problem making friends, then her behavior with you is willfully designed to manipulate. 

Tell people who call on her behalf, that you will not discuss her with them, if it's important enough issue for her, she will discuss it with your herself, if she can't do it, it's not that important to be discussed with anyone.  If she complains of her heart being broken, depression and life having no meaning because she's been abandonned by her family, suggest she see a therapist and get counseling. 

When she discusses something not manipulative with you or focused on positive things in her life, show great interest and reward her with more time.  When she complains, accuses, whines or cries, identify her behavior, "Mom you are whining.  I'll talk to you on Wednesday." and hang up don't talk to her again until Wednesday. 

Say no.  No to Xmas, no to plans you don't want, no to visits with your family.  But if she wants to see them while they are here please arrange something, even if it's to go over for coffee for an hour after dinner.   If she impignes on your family visit, be tolerant, but double the number of transgressions, and deprive her of her Saturday and Wednesday contacts to make up that number.  She will eventually learn to respect your decisions, IF you are consistent and after the penalty is paid always come back pleasantly.  .  It will take a while.  And she will never like it.  Remember she does not have to like anything, she only has to accept it, and she doesn't even have to accept it with good grace, although she'll be happier if she does.

zIt's terrible when you have to raise your parents, but sometimes the only alternative is misery or cut off,.

Magic, this is really great advice.  I love it and will do my best to stick by it.

The problem is DH.  He doesn't get it and even if he does read this (I plan on showing to him) he will not remember it when the fighting and manipulations start.  He can intellectually say that his Mom is wrong and there is something really wrong here but he can't process that into something needs to be done or change his own reactions to her.

I've started counseling and I feel somewhat better.  The counselor confirmed to me that this is severe dysfunction and we are dealing with a disorder, none of this will be solved by learning better communication skills unfortunately.  The only thing we can do is change our reactions.  I'm going to work on disengaging, I take her manipulations and outbursts very personally and I want to learn how to stop.  I want DH to feel good about himself and feel good about acknowledging his own boundaries, but that's up to him.  I can see it, he can't at this point.  So I'm going to lovingly step back and let DH deal with it for the time being, it's a little too much for me and I don't want my marriage destroyed over this.
People throw rocks at things that shine - Taylor Swift

luise.volta

Or call her and don't use SKYPE!  8) Sending love,...
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

cremebrulee


Hello there and welcome.....my oh my, I don't envy you in the least....however, the girls have given you some very good advice....and you sound very mature and understanding, so with time and patience on your hands....hopefully, you will succeed....

QuoteMy husband does too, except for when it comes to MIL.  He starts out trying to be nice but the more she badgers, he starts losing it.  He hasn't yelled at her or anything, but he gets a nasty tone with her and starts bringing up other issues that could have waited for another time.  It's like he almost wants to hammer her back as much as she is doing it to him.

I get the same way with my mother....from my experience, I can't speak for him, but I'd be willing to bet, he gets so annoyed and embarrassed that she acts like this...he knows why she's doing it....and it angers him that it's now not just about his life she is trying to manipulate but yours and your marriage....


QuoteHowever, I don't like that she yells and screams at him.  Sometimes I think I just shouldn't get involved but at the same time, I think we have to communicate to get anything solved!

I think it wise that the two of you confront her together for many reasons....

Just remember, the both of you, this is YOUR life, YOUR Turn, she has had her life, and her turn, and now she expects to life out her dreams thru you...it doesn't work like that and is very selfish for her to think like that....however, she probably doesn't know any better....can you imagine the poor man who is married to her....and all those people who call you for her?  What could they be thinking?  Why don't they say no?  She rules with fear, she's got everyone controlled out of fear....how sad, to go thru life like that manipulating people's lives....? 

I'm with ya, please come in and post and share when you need to....and hope eveyrthing works out....

Hugs
Creme

stilltryen

Ha, while I have issues with my DIL, there are so many things we set up from the onset.  When my husband and I got married, we instigated the "one year with my parents for Thanksgiving, Christmas with his and vice versa the next year."  So when my son was going to get married, I asked them if they wanted to do the same.  They thought it was a great idea and made another rule, that Christmas Eve would always be only theirs.  (We all live close by, so that's easy to do.)  Since last year Christmas was on a Friday, they had dinner at her parents.  I asked them if they would be amenable to coming to Christmas dinner Saturday night and they said yes, so both sets of parents actually got them both at Christmas.  We don't go over unless we're invited (that's another story, while they had her parents over every month, they took about a year and a half to invite us over to their house, and they finally did only after I pointed this out).

In short, we try very hard to stay out of their lives and leave them alone.  If they need us, we're here for them.  My DIL can never say that I call all the time or I try to control my son or bother them in any way, shape or form.

cremebrulee

Quote from: stilltryen on August 24, 2010, 04:28:16 PM
Ha, while I have issues with my DIL, there are so many things we set up from the onset.  When my husband and I got married, we instigated the "one year with my parents for Thanksgiving, Christmas with his and vice versa the next year."  So when my son was going to get married, I asked them if they wanted to do the same.  They thought it was a great idea and made another rule, that Christmas Eve would always be only theirs.  (We all live close by, so that's easy to do.)  Since last year Christmas was on a Friday, they had dinner at her parents.  I asked them if they would be amenable to coming to Christmas dinner Saturday night and they said yes, so both sets of parents actually got them both at Christmas.  We don't go over unless we're invited (that's another story, while they had her parents over every month, they took about a year and a half to invite us over to their house, and they finally did only after I pointed this out).

In short, we try very hard to stay out of their lives and leave them alone.  If they need us, we're here for them.  My DIL can never say that I call all the time or I try to control my son or bother them in any way, shape or form.

I think that's good, and hope in time, they will mature and grow, realizing, you need to see them to....when they start having children and get older, priorities change drastically....so I hope in time, they will gravitate towards your home...your a very good MIL....

big hugs
Creme

Pooh

Me too still.  My OS got married last October.  In May of this year, they bought their first home about an hour away from us.  I found out through other people.  In July, while my DIL was out of town on a vacation with her parents, my OS called me and talked for an hour.  It was great.  I asked him how the new house was going, and he talked about how he'd been fixing the landscaping and such and how interfering her Mother had been and was coming by constantly. 

So, I left that conversation with, "Well me and DH would love to see your new house, but I know how busy you guys are trying to get everything in order and fix things, so that is why we have not just dropped by.  I remember what it was like to get my first house and wanting to decorate and such, so I am waiting for an invitation from you, when you are ready, and we will not come over until you invite."  He said he would call in a couple of weeks and invite us over.  Hmmm, that has been over 7 weeks and still no invite.

So I have the same philosophy you do stillltryen.  DIL can never say I was interfering or bothersome.  And if the invite ever comes, we will politely go over but I am not holding my breath!
We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us. -
Joseph Campbell

barelythere

It was good, Pooh that you didn't comment on her Mother coming by.  He would have told her and you'd never get to go, even though he's the one who brought it up.  Have you thought of that?  What scares me about things like this is that if your son is complaining about whatever, it's easy for you to just agree with him.  Later, though, if they got into an argument about her Mother interfering, he might (he might not) say, "My Mother thinks she interferes too"!  Let's hope he never does that!!!!!   

Pooh

You are right and I am sure he has!  I would not put it past him to get the heat off him, sadly.  That was a big mistake I made when they were dating.  He would talk to me about future DIL being so selfish and childish and I agreed with him.  But even worse, I was trying to make him think and would say things like, "Yes she is.  Do you really want to spend your life with someone that is so selfish?"  And, he went and told her what I said.  Now don't get me wrong...she really is and stomped her foot and rolled her eyes at me to the point I finally told her that if she didn't stop disrespecting me, she could stay out of my house.  But everything I said during their dating and engaged time, he told her.

Now, do I wish I wouldn't have?  Yes.  But would the outcome have been the same?  Yes, because that is truly how she is and it would have been something else if it wasn't that.  But I have learned now to not say anything or agree with him.  I just don't say anything and let him vent.  It's a learning process and I am still learning.
We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us. -
Joseph Campbell