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No Win deal

Started by Monroe, May 26, 2015, 09:09:50 PM

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Stilllearning

I actually talked to my DS about it but in a round about way.  He was not answering the phone when I called or returning calls or texts.  I assumed that he was mad at me or had issues with the way he was raised.  When I talked to him I came at him from the point of the relationship I had with him and his maybe issues with the way I had raised him.  He denied the whole thing and said that his then fiancee had panic attacks and visiting us often caused them.  Great!  Since it is almost impossible to get an engaged couple to visit separately and she could not visit I basically lost my DS for a few years.  Not fair at all!

Then thanks to this thread my attitude changed.  I decided that I had probably been like the schoolmate who so desperately wanted a friend that they would do anything if you would only talk nice to and about them.  Most people are leery of starting a friendship with people like that.....me too.  But I so desperately wanted to be friends with my soon to be DIL that I even subjected myself to a visit with her therapist trying to get on better terms.  What a mistake that was!  Of course it was her therapist so naturally the entire session was used on her issues with me.  The only time I was asked to say anything it was to apologize and let my almost DIL know I knew how hard it was for her to open up.  Never even a word about my issues with her.  That was the last straw.  I quit caring if we were friends or enemies.  My DS would have to deal with it but I would not.

That happened before the marriage and so the wedding was honestly painful to me.  I wanted to cry but you have to smile and say nice things, right?

About a year after the wedding they got pregnant and made the trip out to tell us in person (we live about 45 minutes away).  When they told us my DH said "Well we need to move out of town" and I walked over to his side and laughed and agreed.  They think that things between us improved because the GC came along but honestly they had no idea how much things had changed even before the wedding.  The only way I got through the wedding was by telling myself that it would be the last time I had to deal with them ever and I had honestly enjoyed my life since their nuptials....so calm and quiet! 

When the child came I think my DS was a little hurt that we were not at the hospital.  I was at home and could see from facebook that the hospital room was full of her family and I certainly did not want to go and visit since my DIL had been telling her FOO how entirely horrible I was for years.  Lion's den comes to mind.  Anyway we waited until the next day when no one else was around to visit.  We did not stay long and I thought I was done with it.  Cute baby, but getting attached to her was out of the question.  They fooled me though!  Seems her parents are in poor health and have a hard time keeping the GC so I get to keep her some.  She is way too cute to be able to avoid falling for but I am a lot biased!

Anyway, my point is that when I stopped letting them control the situation, it got better.  I decided that they were not going to make my life miserable anymore.  I stopped letting them push my buttons.  If I see them, great!  If I don't, great!  If they call me back, fine. If not, oh well.  My life is not going to be governed by a couple of 24 year old newly weds who don't have the experience we do. 

The other day my DIL implied in conversation that I had changed after the baby was born.  I told her that there is no way that anyone has a baby and does not change so I am sure both she and my DS have changed.  The truth about the matter is that I have changed.  No one will ever be able to hurt me the way they did before the wedding.  Ever!  I do not think that is better for her or for any of my future in laws but it is better for me.  I promise!!!
Your mind is a garden your thoughts are the seeds
You can grow flowers or you can grow weeds.
Author unknown

shiny

Monroe, WOW -- your comments are spot-on!

Thank you for your helpful, in-depth and well-articulated post!
It's already giving me food for thought, and hopefully, others too.

You may be on to something about the "generational" divisions.
DH and I have discussed this issue numerous times b/c we both had grandparents that lived into their upper nineties, and we saw their lifestyle -- working hard, eating from the garden, canning, and avoiding the consumerism culture that's so prevelant now.
And the term 'Trophy Kids' you used reminded me of our son playing in three different sports from age five thru high school. Every season, the whole team would get a little plastic trophy for just participating. We'd scratch our heads saying, "Whaat?". It got to the point where all the kids expected one of those trinkets, and they meant nothing to them.
I'm going to read that book by Alsop.
Haven't decided yet if I will talk with DS or let it alone. The most it could do, I suppose, is 'force' her to be nice and I certainly don't want fake affection.
Another thing that I wonder about, though, is if DS knows what her problem is with me, and he knows the real me, why doesn't the son become the arbitrator and help her see where her beliefs are misguided. Seems like the DS could take a little more responsibility in this area, IMO.

SL, I agree -- need to let her stop pushing my buttons! Glad you took back that control.

gettingoldandcranky

i DID try to talk to my ds.  he does not want to hear anything is a problem. i am being called a martyr and they don't understand why i think there is a problem.
trying to not contact.  finding myself caving and sending emails inviting visits or just saying u are on my mind.  don't get any phone calls and if i call no one calls back.  my heart is so broken.  finding it hard to stop.  maybe i need to break my computer and get rid of my phone.

how can a child drop someone who has loved and supported them for yrs?  know i will NEVER understand.  stilllearning - ur post helped immensely - want to be where you are

Monroe

Earlier in this thread I wrote that I didn't like my son.  Since that point in time, he made a solo visit to my DH and me, and we had the chance to have a conversation with him, much like Still Learning did with her son.  We approached it the same way -- as in what is what is the problem between me, DH and our son?   DIL's name was never mentioned.  Only thing probed by us was if there was some issue between son and parents, because we didn't like the rare email or phone call from us to be ignored, or his occasional testiness, and if we had done something, we wanted to know so we could address it. 

Son declared no issues.  Fine, we accept that - but by asking about OUR relationship with HIM, we showed him we valued that relationship and were willing to work on ourselves if we had somehow offended or hurt his feelings.  Now we take him for his word, and move on like big people. 

I totally agree with you, Still, that we do not want to be that desperate schoolmate.  We don't have to chase after anybody.  Just as my children are adults, so am I.  They deserve to be treated with respect, so do I. 

If they treat me with respect and affection - the arms are wide open.  If not, well, I have many friends and interests in life - and those friends DO treat me well, so I will go there.  I won't go away mad, I will just go away. 

Son treats me fine now - and I have been through reaching out to DIL.  Son will need to compartmentalize.  He's smart - he can do it. 

Still, it sounds like you made lots of positive changes long before this thread.  Maybe you meant Luise's whole website here?   But it is sounding to me like you have developed a back-bone and some healthy self-respect.  Congratulations!   :D :D :D

Let them figure out that we are interesting, fun people.  Let them WANT to connect with us. 

But I am done with letting family treat me with disrespect - and that is broader than just adult children.  Have had issues with demanding, angry elderly mother.  Have taken it for years.  Finally had an awakening and realized that I was taking emotionally abusive treatment from elderly mother that I would not take from any friend, relative, co-worker, store clerk, ANYBODY.  But because she was my MOTHER I was tolerating very unacceptable behavior, which only taught her that she could get away with it - because I would in fact tolerate it.  So I developed some boundaries - she didn't like it, but has started to accept it.  And guess what?  She is much nicer to me now. 

I couldn't tell her to change.  Logic didn't work.  But when I set boundaries and refused to be treated poorly, she had to change or have me go my own way. 

Still, I think it is the same with our grown children.  Maybe we tolerate too much (yes, your visit to HER therapist was above and beyond the call of duty.) from our adult children and in-laws in an effort to bond.  But I wouldn't want a relationship with a DIL where I was always on trial, where I had to prove myself, walk on eggshells, tiptoe, try to please, etc.   If the initial warm welcome and continued reaching out was met with cold shoulder, I'm entitled to go another direction.  I refused to be that desperate schoolmate when I was 14.  I certainly won't do it now, when I am 40 years older. 

Monroe

Quote from: shiny on June 04, 2015, 05:23:52 AM

Haven't decided yet if I will talk with DS or let it alone. The most it could do, I suppose, is 'force' her to be nice and I certainly don't want fake affection.
Another thing that I wonder about, though, is if DS knows what her problem is with me, and he knows the real me, why doesn't the son become the arbitrator and help her see where her beliefs are misguided. Seems like the DS could take a little more responsibility in this area, IMO.

SL, I agree -- need to let her stop pushing my buttons! Glad you took back that control.

Hi Shiny - let us know if you do talk with DS.  I don't know if your DS has shown symptoms such that you could address it, not as issue with DIL but as issue between DS and you and husband?   But if DS has not been rude or disrespectful, it could be hard to address it as problem between you and DS. 

In the meantime, get involved with your own friends - hopefully other empty nesters with whom you can take little trips and do interesting things.  For years when we traveled, it meant paying for 6.  Now it is just the 2 of us.  Much easier, less $$$.   Enjoy those aspects of the stage of life you are in. 

If DS and DIL are not treating you well, or if DIL alone is rude to you, but DS is so besotted with her that he is thinking with the wrong head, go your own way - find people who will validate you - not tear you down.   

Hiking, skiing, card games, volunteer work (Habitat for Humanity, animal shelters, tutoring disadvantaged children, etc,) - find people with common interests.  You are not a door mat. 

Quote from: gettingoldandcranky on June 04, 2015, 07:32:03 AM
i DID try to talk to my ds.  he does not want to hear anything is a problem. i am being called a martyr and they don't understand why i think there is a problem.
trying to not contact.  finding myself caving and sending emails inviting visits or just saying u are on my mind.  don't get any phone calls and if i call no one calls back.  my heart is so broken.  finding it hard to stop.  maybe i need to break my computer and get rid of my phone.

how can a child drop someone who has loved and supported them for yrs?  know i will NEVER understand.  stilllearning - ur post helped immensely - want to be where you are


Getting Old and Cranky - everything here is for you, too.  You may never understand - you only have to accept.  Because you cannot change THEM.  That being said, you are not a doormat.  You have tried.  Now go in a direction that validates you.  By the way, when I first read your name, I read it as   Getting Gold and Cranky.   Yes, you are gold.   

Detach, take a deep breath. Repeat.  Take care. 

shiny

Monroe, you've lots of wisdom concerning the DS/DIL issue and glad you're able to help others, too!

The only reason I've held back from a confrontation with DIL is because DS has good relationship with DH and me. We've always been close to him. He's good to call/email every week, and visit each month for several days. I have NO complaint with our relationship with him, and am thankful for this. Just don't want to cause him grief b/c of the way his wife acts. I'm 'behaving' out of respect for him, if that makes sense.
I have a 'full plate' now, as the sole caregiver of an elderly parent with dementia and other illnesses. (No trips in near future)
But I do get what you're saying -- when we occupy our time and minds with things we enjoy, AND get our minds off ourselves and onto other people who need help, our problems diminish. No, they don't completely resolve, but it sure takes the sting out.

LOVE the new name: Gold and cranky!

And, I'm going to borrow your words, "Detach, take a deep breath, repeat" as my new daily mantra!

GOAC: it will get easier as time goes on IF you make some changes in your life and your thoughts. Take baby steps. Try not to focus on them or how they are treating you, but focus on other things/people. Yes, we have to respect ourselves and refuse to be treated in hurtful ways. It's hard at first to enforce some boundaries, but so worth it. If we don't take control of how we're treated, no one else will do it for us, except continue on with what they're doing. Hugs to you.

Monroe

Quote from: shiny on June 04, 2015, 07:04:09 PM

The only reason I've held back from a confrontation with DIL is because DS has good relationship with DH and me. We've always been close to him. He's good to call/email every week, and visit each month for several days. I have NO complaint with our relationship with him, and am thankful for this. Just don't want to cause him grief b/c of the way his wife acts. I'm 'behaving' out of respect for him, if that makes sense.
I have a 'full plate' now, as the sole caregiver of an elderly parent with dementia and other illnesses. (No trips in near future)
But I do get what you're saying -- when we occupy our time and minds with things we enjoy, AND get our minds off ourselves and onto other people who need help, our problems diminish. No, they don't completely resolve, but it sure takes the sting out.


Hey, Shiny - I'm jealous.  Sounds like your son lives out of town, but visits for several days each month BY HIMSELF and calls or emails every week.  You have no complaints about relationship with son - and he does not inflict the rude DIL on you.  Sounds like heaven to me!   

You get to see your son - he takes an interest in you - but does not inflict the rude DIL on you.  I frankly would prefer that to having her come too, and be rude to me.  We recently had a chance for a solo visit with DS.  It was great.  Very comfortable - no elephant in the room.  90% of the time we see him, we see THEM.   So it is stiff and stilted - no fun at all.  Having someone there who has made it clear that she has no interest in her FIL or MIL puts a real damper on the interaction.  I would LOVE it if we had solo time with son and didn't have to deal with DIL at all. 


gettingoldandcranky

thanks shiny and monroe.
my end game is playing out now - i hope i finally get it.
  i have a medical test scheduled and my ds did not call to offer caring or support.  dil wrote an email -" good job keeping up on things - let us know how it goes."  signed it "regards".  no love sent, no call received.
this should be my bowing out moment.  i need to stay strong. 

shiny

Monroe, you are too funny! (saying, 'sounds like heaven to me.')

You're right -- and there's nothing more helpful than to be reminded of our many blessings ...

Think it's human nature -- or at least for myself -- I tend to 'zero in' on those things that I want so badly and do not have, while forgetting to focus on what I do have that brings joy.

So, today, I'm off to be thankful for what I do have, while also being thankful for what I don't have -- cause it could be a whole lot worse!

Green Thumb

Lot of truth in the previous posting!

Please do not assume that your AS or DIL have your values of how important family is and how interconnected we should be because we are family. My husband always tells me "Don't assume they have your same values" when I am saying I can't understand why someone did whatever. If you look at their behavior as a reflection of their values, it make perfect sense. If you look at their behavior from your own perspective, it makes no sense or feels hurtful.


I call it the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality, they just have to show up to get rewarded, no effort or work needed. My 5 townhouse neighbors are all young and they do not care about their property and will not do anything in the HOA. They expect someone else to put lightbulbs in their outside lights when they burn out, actually they don't even notice when they are burned out. One guy told me his FATHER came over and changed his outdoor lightbulbs for him (I do it now because it is dark and not safe.)


The young mother who thought she was doing her MIL a favor to allow her to babysit is a narcissist. We can't change anyone like that, if this is what you are dealing with, you just have to protect yourself as best you can. It isn't about us as the MIL, it is about their personality disorder.









Monroe

Earlier I wrote :   "I don't think the younger women have that same attitude.  This is a generalization - but I think that many of the women in their 20's and 30's are very self-absorbed.  There's a book by Ron Alsop, called The Trophy Kids Grow Up.  It is about how millennials are presenting challenges to employers, because, he says, they are the  "most demanding and most coddled generation in history"

And I think that some of us struggle when we get a Trophy Kid for a DIL.  On the flip side, (and this just recently occurred to me) - the Trophy Kids were in large part raised by Helicopter Moms.   While it is hard for some of us to have Trophy DILs, it must be equally hard for a regular, nice DIL to have a Helicopter MIL.   If that MIL had always been after the teachers to raise Johnny's grade, after the coach to let Johnny play more, always running little Johnny's life, then that same woman would be a pretty intolerable MIL.  Why would we expect that Helicopter Mom to turn into anything but a Helicopter MIL?   Just a perspective I thought I'd toss out there. 

That book discussed how employers are dealing with Trophy Kids as employees.  Anybody know about any research on how Trophy Kids are faring at in-law relationships?  Impact on families?  Are there any statistics showing an increase/decrease/no change in in-law friction.   It would be interesting to know.   


Monroe

Quote from: Green Thumb on June 05, 2015, 07:13:14 PM

Please do not assume that your AS or DIL have your values of how important family is and how interconnected we should be because we are family. My husband always tells me "Don't assume they have your same values" when I am saying I can't understand why someone did whatever. If you look at their behavior as a reflection of their values, it make perfect sense. If you look at their behavior from your own perspective, it makes no sense or feels hurtful.


Greenie - our husbands are both right!  He tells me basically the same thing.  And that I simply need to detach more and lower expectations.  (Basement level, anyone) 

I too have been guilty of projecting my values onto others.   So when DIL gives us the cold shoulder - I am bewildered because I view that through my own perspective.  Her actions tell me what her perspective is.  I need to remind myself of your wise words when you say "If you look at their behavior as a reflection of their values, it make perfect sense."

Her actions have told me - loud and clear - that she wants nothing but distance from DS's FOO.  Message received.  To the extent I, like Shiny, was bewildered, I was refusing to receive the message.  Maya Angelou famously said "When people show you who they are, believe them."

Greenie - you also said in an earlier post -- "We don't want to recognize the mean behavior aimed at us, the slights, the nasty comments, the "I am/was better than you" because we are good people and we would not do this to others. "

That is so so true.  I think that's why I (and maybe Shiny as well) have been so bewildered -- We don't want to recognize the slights  directed towards us, and so we struggle reconciling the DIL actions with a disbelief that anyone would be so unkind.  But Maya tells us - we need to believe them when they show us, through their actions, who they are. 

Shiny, what do you think? 


luise.volta

Monroe, I have posted the book you recommended under the category, Helpful Resources. Thanks!
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

Monroe

Shiny - in an earlier post you said --

"Should I be the one to always tiptoe around her, not wanting to upset her, while I suffer in silence and confusion?
I'm really getting too old for all this nonsense..."


My answer has become NO.  I decided I was tired of tiptoeing around, walking on eggshells, reaching out, pretending everything was fine, giving her the benefit of the doubt when major family events were ignored.  (Not events about me - but other members of DS' FOO - deaths, life-threatening illnesses, milestone birthdays - and I mean three-digit birthdays).  I have thrown in the towel.  It was always unreasonable of me to expect her to respond and want to connect with our family.  Well, maybe not always, but at least after the first year or two.  But I kept on, like an idiot not getting the message.  She truly must have thought I was dumb as a post. 

But we recently had a solo visit from DS.  It was marvelous.  Had a great time, talked about lots of things, but I didn't ask about DIL at all, and he didn't really talk about her either - only in the course of "we did this or we did that"   not "she this or she that".  So I have dropped the rope, as they say. 

By the way, I am far from a helicopter mom/MIL.   I always thought my job as mom was to raise my kids to be independent and self-sufficient.  I encouraged them and supported them - but let them fight their own battles growing up.  So they could deal with challenges and problems as adults, without my help.  I succeeded very well there.   

I can be guilty of many things, but being a Helicopter MIL is not one of them.  So, like Shiny, there is no reason for the refusal to have a relationship - except for what is inside DIL. 

luise.volta

It probably follows that if we weren't Helicopter Moms/MILs...our DILs could well have been raised by one. Tough stuff!
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama