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No Win deal

Started by Monroe, May 26, 2015, 09:09:50 PM

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Monroe

Quote from: Green Thumb on May 27, 2015, 11:15:43 AM
I was making a general statement not aimed at the OP. Sorry if it came across as criticism. I think she has been frozen out like many of us and if it is a dysfunctional situation, there's not much hope it will change I think sometimes we are frozen out because of the other FOO hogging the attention, time or just plain making it clear their child has to know tow to them. As in a narcissistic family. If we are a good person, we want to give love and be loved, and we are usually shocked when it isn't wanted or reciprocated. Very sad and all we can do is accept reality.

Hi Greenie!   No offense taken.  Frankly I totally agree with both you and Lilly.  Young adults (and older ones, too!  ;) ) need to have their own lives and interests.  I don't expect their lives to revolve around me.  And I don't want my life to revolve around him and indifferent DIL.  To have a mutually respectful, adult relationship, fine.  But I do not want to be enmeshed.  If the DIL or son-in-law liked me, I would be willing (but not insistent) to be more involved.  But with the DIL so indifferent, and with son adoring her, it is frankly pretty boring to be around them. 

DH and I treat adult married son as an adult.  But the problem is he acts like a rebellious teenager at times.  Way too old for that.  And I am not willing to put up with that ten years after his high school graduation.  (I didn't put up with it when he was a minor and I was legally responsible for him.  Sure not going to tolerate it now.) 

I deserve respect.  I cannot demand it, but I do deserve it, and I can choose to very much limit my relationship with anyone who does not respect me. 

Anyway, Greenie - thanks for your comments.  ZERO offense taken.  (We might even be soul mates!)   ;)

Monroe

Quote from: Lillycache on May 27, 2015, 11:36:18 AM
I think it's even worse when it comes a surprise.  In my case, I had absolutely no idea how much my DIL hated me.. . . . . . . . . .  I learned this was going on for 10 years and my poor son was exhausted from protecting me from her..   IN the end though, I firmly believe it is better to know where you stand and then you can begin to do what is best for you.  It's cruel to keep someone in the dark about such intense feelings.  My heart breaks at all the posts from bewildered MILs who just don't understand what is going on, or what the problem is.  They know something is wrong, but no one will tell them.    It's like trying to play a game with someone, and they will not tell you what the rules are, and just get a kick out of watching you fail.  It's almost sadistic.

Hi Lilly, old buddy, old friend.  I totally agree with you.  I was in the dark (self-inflicted, I'm sure) - because I kept ignoring her slights.   I would make excuses in my head, rationalize, bend over backwards to not take offense.  Until finally I could not rationalize her attitude any longer.  She never DID anything.  But that was just it.  She never did anything.  Was not responsive to gestures of inclusiveness, friendship, etc.  She must have thought I was as dumb as a post to not "get it" sooner.  But I just kept giving her the benefit of the doubt until even I could not doubt any longer. 

I was bewildered, but eventually realized, as Luise would counsel us, that the "why" does not matter.  I finally saw the "is".   I never found anything vitriolic like you did on that other site, but my son said (only once in a weak moment) that he was tired of being in the middle.  So she must have been giving him an earful, but nobody ever shared with me the substance of the complaints about me. 

After that (and I am grateful he did share that with me) I finally accepted that my rationalizing excuses for her bad behavior was not productive.  We are civil when we see each other, which is only a couple of times a year, but I don't feel any responsibility to try to build any kind of relationship. 

And I agree, Lilly, that it is cruel to keep the bewildered MIL in the dark about such intense feelings.  I wish I hadn't been such a Pollyanna for so long, or that my son had slipped and told me years earlier that he was in the middle. 

Then we get to the part about him acting like a child (him asking favors, me complying, him being rude and disrespectful) and I ask myself - why do I put up with this?  I would not tolerate this from a friend.   Why tolerate from my son, who is an adult?  My "mothering" days are over.  I am not responsible for him.  If we are to have a relationship, it has to be mutually respectful and it is not. 

I think sometimes the adult children want to have it both ways.  They want to live their own lives, free from parental interference (and this is a TOTALLY reasonable desire on their part) - but they want all the advantages of being a little kid - borrow Mommy's car, have a place to crash, expect unconditional love when they are rude and disrespectful.  I actually do have unconditional love for him.  I just don't have unconditional "like" for him.  There.  I said it.  I don't like my son.   AARGH! :(




Monroe

Quote from: NewMama on May 28, 2015, 05:13:28 AM
Some of us DILs are in a position of not being allowed to voice anything to our MILs. My DH has told me when I've mentioned an issue to him, that yes MIL shouldn't have said/done that, it's wrong, but we couldn't possibly tell her such a thing. So she has no idea, keeps doing the thing she shouldn't be, and I keep getting madder and madder. She knows something is up, especially after our Christmas visit. But DH won't let me say anything.

Hi NewMama -

Gee, could I have you for a DIL?  I'd love a DIL who would actually talk with me. 

I do agree with Lilly that it is better for the MIL to be told, and you seem to feel the same way.  In a later post, you shared how your MIL shuts down when anyone is direct with her.  Someone like that may not be open to talking things out with you, but sweeping it under the rug never works either. 

Your MIL sounds very controlling, and you and your DH will have to deal with it sometime.  It will never go away unless you deal with it, at least between the two of you.  You deserve to set boundaries, and if she doesn't respect them (and that will be a hard lesson for her) - you will probably eventually wind up cutting her off completely. 

Your DH may have to make a choice - - deal with it soon, while some sort of relationship can be salvaged - or deal with it later when it explodes into a complete cut-off. 

Good luck. 

Green Thumb

We don't want to recognize the mean behavior aimed at us, the slights, the nasty comments, the "I am/was better than you" because we are good people and we would not do this to others.

We have such high hopes for our kids as they grow up that we usually avoid reality, in realizing the AC are sometimes real pains, using us, etc. I don't like 3 of my adult children. Yes, I said it too. Like you, I no longer give anything any more to them. I am considering changing my will. I picked up a clearance item book at the bookstore last year, "The Sociopath Next Door" and to our utter dismay found out it described one AS. 

And the same for NewMama, it hurts to be the scapegoat as NewMama has been made to be and it really hurts that husband is oblivious to her pain and defends his nasty piece of work mommy.

There's a million people like this, nasty or narcissistic or just plain self centered. They are in my family, at my job, at your job, in your family, and strangers on the street. I am working on myself not to react to these kind of people, not let them hurt my feelings and to think in my head "don't take it personally" when they are giving me crap. My boss, my daughter, neighbors in the HOA, my dead mother, my in-laws.

I am living the dream, just like all of us here.

shiny

Chiming in since I haven't completely figured out DIL's opinion of me. I do know that she is indifferent. No communication at all. And I have been reaching out to her for six years now.
It's come to a point for me: enough is enough. I'm tired of trying to form a relationship with her since it's obvious she has no desire for that. I can respect that, but it's disappointing. I had always dreamed my DIL would want to be close to our family. My DS is good to DH and me, though. He never says a word to us about her feelings towards us, so I really don't know if she is just a private person or what.
Funny thing though, my DH doesn't care one way or the other whether she is friendly towards us. He says as long as she is a good wife to our DS, and she is, and that she loves DS, and she does, that's enough for him. He says that we will always be in-laws to her and nothing more, so just accept it. Maybe that should be my perspective, too. I think it bothers mothers more than fathers.

Lillycache

In my case, it was different in the beginning.  Before my son and DIL were married, she did reach out to me to have a relationship.  We had lunch once... we went shopping once.. and I thought we had a great time.. I know I did.. so I really believed everything was roses and unicorns.. and I was so happy to have her for a DIL..   Apparently I failed the initial interview.. I don't know why or how... but I guess I was reprehensible in some way, as all that stopped and the hatred began.  What was the grievous sin I had committed....  I really still don't know.   She told me that I should know.. and believe me, I racked my brain trying to remember anything that may have happened, or could have been misconstrued.. but to no avail..  So.. I just gave up..  and NOW I certainly don't care.   I don't have time of the energy for those senseless mind games.   And that's all that they were.. and very cruel at that.   My stance now is that if I did something I certainly hope it was really horrible..   lol!!

Pen

IMO, as I've said before, some MILs and DILs have an agenda they seemed to have set long before any relationship between DS/DIL was on the horizon! Some women cannot share the man (DS or DH) with anyone else, period. Yuck. My DIL is in that category (with help from her FOO), as was my dad's mom (my grandmother.)

I suspect the DILs on the "bash" site wouldn't like any MIL they ended up with, just as there are MILs who wouldn't like any women their DSs ended up with. Sad.
Respect ... is appreciation of the separateness of the other person, of the ways in which he or she is unique.
-- Annie Gottlieb

Lillycache

Sad indeed..   And this seems to be a "women thing"..    There are absolutely no websites completely devoted to the hatred of FILs..   Nor are there any sites where sad confused FILs come to seek support.   Right?   

gettingoldandcranky

totally sad that it is "a woman thing".  jealousy - strong personalities - stubbornness - or just a woman's need to be appreciated?
too bad that since i am cut off and ignored the rest of the family gets left behind too -my hubby, my siblings, my other kids.  DS and DIL are cutting out a whole lot of people who want to spend time and love their children because of WHY?   so very sad.

Green Thumb

I wish I could remember what book the following was in, but it was a parenting book explaining why mothers and fathers are both important and why mothers parent different from fathers. The gist of it is that women value interdependence, thus we want relationships. Women have always needed each other in order to survive, and needed a healthy man to hunt, farm, etc. to feed the family.

Men on the other hand, value independence. This is why a father teaches his children to get a job, don't cry, learn to drive, etc. Go out and hunt and kill and bring back the bacon, etc.

The DIL who says you should remember what ugly thing you did that created her hatred sounds mentally unstable or manipulative or a narcissist/sociopath. That kind of statement without giving a true answer is meant to manipulate and control. She will never let it go and I would suggest you recognize the blackmail this stuff really entails. You are not wrong, you are not stupid to not know what the heck she means. It also likely means there is not a thing you did, she is lying to cover up that she is really a hateful person. This kind of statement, "I won't tell you, you should know or read my mind", is a sign that she doesn't want to work it out, she has nothing but bad intent towards you.

I am sorry, I am blunt, but I have heard crap like this from my sociopathic son and my narcissistic ex husband and daughter. You need to guess what you did and you need to jump through hoops to please me. It is never their fault, it is often made up, and it isn't ever going to change, they will always be a pain to deal with. I highly recommend Dr. Phil's Life Code to learn how these people are and how to protect yourself.

Monroe

Quote from: shiny on May 28, 2015, 04:57:58 PM
Chiming in since I haven't completely figured out DIL's opinion of me. I do know that she is indifferent. No communication at all. And I have been reaching out to her for six years now.
It's come to a point for me: enough is enough. I'm tired of trying to form a relationship with her since it's obvious she has no desire for that. I can respect that, but it's disappointing. I had always dreamed my DIL would want to be close to our family. My DS is good to DH and me, though. He never says a word to us about her feelings towards us, so I really don't know if she is just a private person or what.
Funny thing though, my DH doesn't care one way or the other whether she is friendly towards us. He says as long as she is a good wife to our DS, and she is, and that she loves DS, and she does, that's enough for him. He says that we will always be in-laws to her and nothing more, so just accept it. Maybe that should be my perspective, too. I think it bothers mothers more than fathers.

Shiny - we must have the same DIL!  ; )    Like you, I was puzzled.  DIL didn't do anything.  But that was just it.  She didn't DO anything.   Didn't respond to our friendly gestures, rarely thanked us for gifts.  Was completely indifferent.   We were careful to be open but not intrusive - to be friendly but not pry.  No personal questions.  No dropping by. 

I get how you say you haven't figured out DIL's opinion of you.  I was the same way.  But I think by their repetitive attitude for YEARS we have in fact figured it out.  We don't know WHY.  We never will.  And Luise would tell us that we don't NEED to know WHY.  We need to accept that and move on.  We know we don't deserve indifferent DILs, but that is what we got, and we certainly don't want to shove our sons into divorce.  So it is what it is. 

My DH was, like yours, better at accepting it than I was.  I had always felt that there were logical consequences to my actions.  When I studied in school, I got good grades.  When I goofed off, I did not.  When I was nice to someone, they were friendly in return.  If I was rude to someone, I was not surprised if they were rude right back.  So I had this idea that if I were nice, the DIL would like me and be nice right back.  After all, we did love the same man. 

But it just doesn't work that way.  Not my fault.  I'm still a good and decent person.  This is a reflection of her - not of me.  I gave it the good old college try.  Like you, I kept the door open for 5-6 years.  She never crossed the threshold.   Not saying the door is locked - I don't really know if it is or not.  But it is a closed door now.  I don't hang on to expectations that she will cross the threshold and want to connect with our family.  So the door is closed - keeps the wind and rain out.  She would have to go to the effort to open it and cross the threshold and make an affirmative effort to have a relationship.  Maybe the door is locked.  I find nothing in my heart for her.  So at this point it might be that nothing she could do would warm me.  But we will never know because she wouldn't even respond when the door was open. 

I have gone out the back door, by the way, and gone down a different road in life, in expectations, etc.  The road I have gone down is filled with people with whom I share the same interests, and who value me as a person.   Take a walk with me sometime? 

shiny

Monroe, your post encourages me greatly!

Yes, I would love to take a walk with you, right NOW!

Seems like you're farther down the path than me, though, but I'm following behind you!

Like you, I kept/keep thinking logically -- if I do 'nice' -- I get 'nice' in return. But it's not working that way. That's what stuns me. Especially in extended family. Could accept it easier if it were a neighbor or acquaintance.

I still haven't had a talk with DS about her yet, and hesitate to do so. It might cause hard feelings all around. And, I wonder if he even notices? Surely, he's not unaware?

Is it better to close the door, and not even mention it unless he does? That could be never!

Heard recently that many problems occur in families simply for lack of communication.
But what good is communication if both parties aren't willing to negotiate?
If she doesn't care how I feel or what I think, she won't engage in sorting things out.

IOW: if I've offended her in any way, I would make it right if she would only let me know.

Did you ever discuss with your DS?

I do take comfort, though, in the fact that I have been kind, good to her. Accepting her into the family. Not interfering or critical in any way. So, it's really her issue, not mine. The way she's behaving says a lot about her character, or lack of it.


Green Thumb

I think let it go. Your idea of what constitutes family is not hers and it just is the way it is. If DIL just doesn't care, doesn't talk to you but isn't hostile, then asking son about it could turn into pointing out her flaws. Even if you say it nice he might take it hard or as criticism. My SIL says hello, I give him a hug, but he is only interested in himself, his toys and his mom and dad. If we talk to him about himself, ask how's the new boat, etc. and give lots of praise he will engage somewhat. He will not engage by his own choice and will not if his mom and dad are around. When his parents are there, he only engages with them.


Lastly, I work with 50 women and many will only say hello if you say hello first and force eye contact. Walking in the hall, and we are all in one building in cubicles! Especially the younger ones. Many are not friendly but most of the older ones are, but not all of them. It's obvious which people are only concerned about themselves. You can't force someone to want to have a relationship.

shiny

(Monroe, not meaning to usurp your thread here ..)

GT: thanks for your insight.

I understand a relationship can't be forced, nor would I want that.
Also, am realizing that the 'family unit' can look differently to everyone.

What I'm having difficulty with is a DIL who chooses to ignore me, for reason(s) unknown to me.
Examples: no response to occasional email sent few times a year, no mention or call on my BD (while she and DS celebrate her FOO birthdays with weekend gatherings), no acknowledgement of our BD gift to her (or anything we send to her by way of DS), and when she does come to our home for special holidays, does not participate in conversation, will not share any detail about her life, etc.
We have not been invited to their home in three years, even though I've mentioned we'd love to visit, even for a few hours; yet, her FOO is there several times a week, every week.
I could go on, but hopefully, you get the gist.

When a neighbor brings a cake or something over, I express gratitude for their thoughtfulness.
A neighbor, mind you.
So, I just can't comprehend how/why my son's wife is so stone cold toward us.
I do know that he was raised better, and to use good manners.
That's the main reason I want to bring the issue up to him--maybe he knows a reason.
Should I be the one to always tiptoe around her, not wanting to upset her, while I suffer in silence and confusion?
I'm really getting too old for all this nonsense...

Monroe

Quote from: shiny on June 03, 2015, 03:49:15 PM
(Monroe, not meaning to usurp your thread here ..)

GT: thanks for your insight.

I understand a relationship can't be forced, nor would I want that.
Also, am realizing that the 'family unit' can look differently to everyone.

What I'm having difficulty with is a DIL who chooses to ignore me, for reason(s) unknown to me.
Examples: no response to occasional email sent few times a year, no mention or call on my BD (while she and DS celebrate her FOO birthdays with weekend gatherings), no acknowledgement of our BD gift to her (or anything we send to her by way of DS), and when she does come to our home for special holidays, does not participate in conversation, will not share any detail about her life, etc.
We have not been invited to their home in three years, even though I've mentioned we'd love to visit, even for a few hours; yet, her FOO is there several times a week, every week.
I could go on, but hopefully, you get the gist.

When a neighbor brings a cake or something over, I express gratitude for their thoughtfulness.
A neighbor, mind you.
So, I just can't comprehend how/why my son's wife is so stone cold toward us.
I do know that he was raised better, and to use good manners.
That's the main reason I want to bring the issue up to him--maybe he knows a reason.
Should I be the one to always tiptoe around her, not wanting to upset her, while I suffer in silence and confusion?
I'm really getting too old for all this nonsense...

Shiny - you didn't usurp my thread - - it is a thread for all, and I appreciate your comments. 

I too struggled with the idea of talking it out.  Not with DIL - but with son.  No he is not oblivious.  He cannot be - he is a pretty smart young man - so he is not oblivious.  I thought my DH and I could talk with son, learn what the problem was and try to fix it.  If there was a simple factual misunderstanding, we could clear it up and have a good relationship.  It is just like an elephant in the room.  I just couldn't see living another 30 years this way. 

I suspect Green Thumb is right, though -  when she says

"Your idea of what constitutes family is not hers and it just is the way it is. If DIL just doesn't care, doesn't talk to you but isn't hostile, then asking son about it could turn into pointing out her flaws."

I would only take issue with Green Thumb where she says "but isn't hostile".  Frankly, if DIL doesn't care and doesn't talk to you - to me that is the very DEFINITION of hostile! : )

When I got married, I wanted to have three families.  I wanted to stay a part of my FOO, I also wanted to be a part of my husband's family, and I wanted the two of us to have our own family.  To me, the 3 are not mutually exclusive.  Just like I don't have to choose between being a redhead, a Cardinals fan and a swimmer.  I can be all three at once. 

I don't think the younger women have that same attitude.  This is a generalization - but I think that many of the women in their 20's and 30's are very self-absorbed.  There's a book by Ron Alsop, called The Trophy Kids Grow Up.  It is about how millennials are presenting challenges to employers, because, he says, they are the  "most demanding and most coddled generation in history". 

I am a baby boomer, and I do think the Greatest Generation did a better job of raising their children than the Boomers did.  The GG were born in the 1920s, were teenagers during the Depression and went off to WWII in the 1940s.  They SAW hardship, even if they did not personally suffer much.  Nobody was blind to the suffering of the Depression - or loss of life in WWII.  Greatest Gen parents instilled good, solid values in their children (the Boomers). 

The Boomers, on the other hand, went overboard on their children.  Hovering, meddling at the grade school, until the term "helicopter parent" was coined.  Everything little Johnny wanted, little Johnny got.  Children of Boomers expect their own cars at age 16.  Boomers themselves did not - but they made sure their kids did.  Greatest Gen parents served home-cooked meals.  Children of Boomers expect to eat out all the time. 

College dormitories in the 1960s and 1970s were pretty spartan.  A large communal bathroom for 25 girls to share.  Similarly, one phone on the hallway wall for all those girls. 

Colleges have been updating their dorms to include private bathrooms and luxury suites.  And of course everyone has their own smart phone. 

So this generation has been coddled - they have been told they are special - and been given so many "participation trophies" I can't count. 

Of course not ALL millennials are spoiled and act entitled, but I am not imagining the trend. 

Shiny, could it be that your DIL is one of those?  Doted on by over-indulgent parents who never taught her to be kind and considerate?  Just thinking here. 

On that other nasty website, I read a thread where one DIL had the perspective that when she (the DIL) allowed the MIL to babysit, the DIL was doing a favor for the MIL.   This young woman had no idea that the MIL was doing HER a favor.  I'm sure the MIL enjoyed being with her grandchild - but the DIL saw it entirely that she was being magnanimous to the MIL, not that the MIL was doing the DIL a favor.  That was a real eye-opener for me.

So you may have one of those self-absorbed, entitled millennials for a DIL.  Trying to talk to her or your DS would probably do no good.  I am reminded of Maya Angelou's line - - "When people show you who they are, believe them."   It seems that your DIL has shown you who she is - it's not pretty, but it seems to be who she is.  Believe her.  Green Thumb is most likely right.   

Now, for the counter position.  Your son is her husband.  She is number 1 in his life.  You are not.  But you still hold a place of importance, and if you want to explore with him what the problem is, why not?  What's the worst that could come of it?   He becomes aware of the strained non-relationship between you and DIL??   I assure you he already knows about it.  She has given him an earful.  He know all about it and knows exactly what her issues are with you.  You don't have to be accusing or critical in your conversation with him - you could just be honestly bewildered, as you are.  It might be uncomfortable for him - but so is the continued pretense that you are both part of the same family and that everything is fine. 

I decided not to talk to son about it, mainly because I realized that I was totally done with DIL.  No, I have not "cut her off" or anything - but they live across the country, and we rarely see them - so I just go through the motions.  Barely.  I thought - if son and I talk, and I  learn what the problem is - and then I'm supposed to do what?  There's probably nothing he could tell me that would give me a "lightbulb moment" - so I would say "Aha!  Problem solved!" and then embrace this young woman.  After getting the cold shoulder for so many years, I don't like her.  So I decide it was easier to keep on with the status quo - If she responded positively to my conversation with her husband, then I would have to try to have a relationship with her, and I really am fine having nothing to do with her. 

So I did not have the talk.  But I might go ahead and have that conversation if I thought there was anything to salvage in the relationship.  But there's not. 

What about you, Shiny?   Would you truly be open to a relationship with DIL at this point?  If so, maybe a talk is not a bad idea.   If not, then why bother???

Take care.