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Please don't take a My Family/Your Family attitude

Started by Monroe, June 26, 2014, 11:37:20 AM

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herbalescapes

I am simply shocked at the idea that mothers should resign themselves to being left out just because they have sons because men aren't good at social contact.  I thought gender stereotyping wasn't socially acceptable.  Many men do keep in touch with their families and take the lead on remembering to send cards, buy gifts, arrange get-togethers, thereby proving that men CAN do it. 

It wasn't too long ago that the idea of a DH doing the laundry or the cooking or changing a diaper was laughable, but today we'd call a man a chauvinist pig if he tried to weasel out of traditionally DW tasks just because he has a Y chromosome. 

Men may shirk the social niceties in their family lives, but in the business world, they are aces.  I think over half the Christmas cards I receive are from people who want me to hire them to sell my house or manage my money or donate to their cause.  If a man wants a promotion or wants to be hired or wants to sell you something, then all of a sudden he can pick up the phone and chitchat or arrange lunch or wish you a happy birthday.  When the motivation is right, men observe the social niceties AOK.

If a non-custodial father doesn't reach out to his kids, doesn't call them to keep in touch or remember their birthdays or ignores his visitation days or bails on attending the soccer game/school play, we don't sadly shake our heads and say, "Oh well, men just aren't adept at the social graces."  No, we call him a DEADBEAT DAD.  Granted, AC don't have the same level of obligation to their parents as they do to their minor children, but in both instances men don't deserve a pass simply because they are men.

The take away should be to raise a son to be as socially responsible as if he were a daughter and when he reaches adulthood, don't shift blame onto his DW when he drops the ball. 


Lillycache

Well, then I guess I, and most of us here have raised socially irresponsible sons then..  and as usual.. blame the mother.  lol!!

Sorry, I respectfully disagree.  Men for the most part are not into the social graces like women are, and no amount of "proper" raising is going to change that.  It's hardwired.   They also don't look for social slights, hidden agendas and nuances like women do either.   I stand by my statement.  If you have boys... you may very likely find yourself slighted.  It is what it is.   AND my guess is that the DILs of today, will very likely find themselves in the same situation when their sons are grown.   Not a pleasant thought for sure.. BUT.. again it is what it is.     

Stilllearning

True that the roles for men and women are changing but we are in the early stages of that.  We still look on the female auto mechanic as something less than sexy and at the male nurse as something less than manly.  So I guess I should raise my boys to be more feminine and thereby allow them to kidded and bullied mercilessly during their formative years. Great.  I guess that would make them more likely to keep in touch with Mommy!
Your mind is a garden your thoughts are the seeds
You can grow flowers or you can grow weeds.
Author unknown

jdtm

QuoteI am simply shocked at the idea that mothers should resign themselves to being left out just because they have sons because men aren't good at social contact.

Herbal - in my case, when I tried to be "included", I was considered to be an interfering and controlling MIL.  All I wanted was to see my family sometime during one or two of the holidays a year.  It was not meant to be - our son IL's controlled the entire holidays (Christmas for example stretched for at least a week and they lived within one half hour of our son and his family).  So, no holidays, no birthdays and no replies to any invitations (they were always busy).  Sometimes, though, we would go out to dinner on the spur of the moment (I'm talking once every two years or so).  I just quit asking.  And, we got on with our lives. 

Things have now changed - our DIL left her husband and abandoned her children but the scars are deep and the hurt always raw.  We see them but .....


Pen

I would guess that most of us current MILs are now or have been DILs ourselves at some point. We may have had a wonderful MIL to model ourselves after or a truly heinous MIL who showed us how not to be. We have had the experience of being both a DIL and a MIL, so most of us "get it." DILs who have not been MILs don't have quite the same frame of reference, but that doesn't mean they can't try to understand.

Many DILs claim that they do not/cannot influence our DSs to reject or ignore us. That may be true in some cases, but it actually happened in mine starting the minute the wedding vows were spoken. Subsequently, our family & extended family has been changed by one young woman with an agenda. When DS tried to maintain a relationship with us, going so far as to plan outings including both FOOs, we were shunned and/or uninvited by DIL's FOO. It made his life miserable, so we encouraged him to put his wife first and work it out with her. I suppose somewhere in the back of my mind I thought DIL would appreciate that and adjust her treatment of us accordingly, but we're still not considered worthy of a relationship with her (unless she needs something from us, lol.) Not fair, but what are we going to do? If we speak up we're seen as whiney, manipulative or combative. If we say nothing we slowly but surely become a dim memory.

We're also at the bottom of the holiday/birthday/celebration/news list and see DS/DIL sporadically, usually on the spur of the moment. We miss our son, his sister misses her brother, his grandparents and other relatives would like to see him occasionally (DS & DIL only travel to visit her family.) We're moving on, but sometimes it hurts.
Respect ... is appreciation of the separateness of the other person, of the ways in which he or she is unique.
-- Annie Gottlieb

Lillycache

QuoteI suppose somewhere in the back of my mind I thought DIL would appreciate that and adjust her treatment of us accordingly, but we're still not considered worthy of a relationship with her (unless she needs something from us, lol.) Not fair, but what are we going to do? If we speak up we're seen as whiney, manipulative or combative. If we say nothing we slowly but surely become a dim memory.

OR... as in my case, if you keep your distance, try not to interfer, offer advise, call to make plans or see how the kids are doing,  you get accused of being cold and uncaring and not really loving your grandchildren.    When you are in a lose/lose situation, it really doesn't matter what you do..   


herbalescapes

For some reason this thread is sticking in my head. 
Sometimes it's easier to see the double standard when we reverse it.  How would any of us reply to a post like this:

My SIL is a mean, nasty, vindictive, hateful person. My DD has a hard time with numbers and managing money.  Men are just better at such things.  My DD often overdraws her checking account, maxes out her credit cards, and gets stuck with fees for not paying her bills on time.  I know she's a good person.  She doesn't mean to be irresponsible; she's just a girl and girls aren't really good with numbers.

My SIL absolutely refuses to help out.  He won't get a joint bank account or a joint credit card or arrange to pay her bills.  He refuses to buy a home with her because he's afraid her poor money management would result in a foreclosure.  They are stuck renting an apartment and this isn't good for the GC.  If they'd buy a home, the GC could have a yard to play in and their own bedrooms and a pet or two.

With technology these days, it would be so easy for him to manage her finances.  He could keep on top of her spending and make sure her bills are paid on time.  It's really the GC who suffer because money spent on late fees takes away from their college funds.  But SIL refuses to budge.  He says he wants a "your finances, your responsibility" policy.  What can I do to make SIL realize he needs to step in and help my DD with her finances?


No one should get a fee pass on adult responsibilities because of their gender.  The basics of social interaction, like the basics of money management, are pretty simple.  Men excel at social interaction in the business world - they just refer to it as networking instead of socializing.  There is no excuse for a man to get off scott free for not calling/texting/etc his FOO once in awhile.  If a DS wants his FOO in his children's lives, he can arrange a dinner or lunch or outing to the zoo.  We're not talking brain surgery here, we're talking things MEN DO EVERYDAY AT WORK.  If my dad could learn to vacuum and change a diaper even though his dad never did that stuff, there's no reason the adult men of today can't learn to keep in touch with their FOOs.  As long as people give the adult men in their lives a free pass on the social niceties, however, the men have no reason to change.

Stilllearning

OK Herbal, I will give you the fact that it is up to the male to keep in touch also.  However, if I had not said "We are spending Thanksgiving with my family so we need to spend Christmas with yours" my DH would have been more than happy to forgo his family entirely.  The basis of my wonderful relationship with my MIL actually rests with me, the DIL who included her,  asked for advise from her, treasured her opinion and made her feel a part of our family.  And yes, sometimes she did get on my nerves!!  But she is family, and there is not a single person in my FOO who has not gotten on my nerves....and often worse than my MIL!
Your mind is a garden your thoughts are the seeds
You can grow flowers or you can grow weeds.
Author unknown

sofia13

Herbalescapapes,.

I totally agree with you.  Men should not be given free passes for ignoring his FOO, its wrong! DS knew his family a lot longer than DW. HE should remember calling FOO to say happy birthday, mothers day, Merry Christmas, How are you doing, etc.


This thread kind of reminds me of a cheating husband scenario: The wife blames the mistress, but lets the cheating husband off the hook "because he's just a man" after all and couldn't help it.  I think we can all agree that husband will just keep cheating on his wife... Why not? She'll let him off the hook and keep blaming the other woman.

Lilly,

I truly hope that my sons don't forget me when they're grown (and I'm so sorry if you're experiencing this). I wouldn't wish that on any loving mom. But, God forbid they do, I don't think I would use the "it's because he's a man" excuse. I know lots of sons who keep in contact with FOO after they marry. Yes, men and woman are different in many ways. But, when something/someone is really important to you, you find the time, regardless of your gender. You have every right to disagree (I respect your opinion).

If my DSs only true motivation for keeping in contact with me is because his DW had to remind him, I'm not sure that would make me feel any better... Although, from a hurting mothers stand point I suppose it's better than nothing.

Quick question:

What if DS forgot his wedding anniversery? Would it be okay if DIL blamed it on the MILs of the world today for not reminding him?



Monroe,

I wasn't going to ask this at first bc I didn't want to come across as confrontational. But, I'd respectfully like to ask what kind of things you might have done (or did) for your MIL & DIL to make her feel like family?

You only mentioned your FIL. Most conflicts I've read here involve MIL/DIL (FILs are usually the easy ones). I ask this question in all fairness bc often, MILs want their DILs to treat them like family, but don't do the same for DIL.  In the beginning of my relationship with DH, my MIL made it very clear to me that DS was her family, NOT ME...

It's a bit of a double standard to expect DIL to treat MIL like family, if MIL didn't do the same.

sofia13

Quote from: Stilllearning on July 15, 2014, 06:41:27 PM
The basis of my wonderful relationship with my MIL actually rests with me, the DIL who included her,  asked for advise from her, treasured her opinion and made her feel a part of our family. 

Stilllearning,

The basis of a wonderful relationship (IMO) rest on both parties involved, relationships are two way streets.

Stilllearning

So true Sofia and ruining one takes two also. 
Your mind is a garden your thoughts are the seeds
You can grow flowers or you can grow weeds.
Author unknown

Lillycache

Thank you very much for your posts Herbal and Sophia....   however, I believe all of us in this situation know how it SHOULD be... and what our DSs SHOULD do.  However, I have been lead to believe that this site leaves the SHOULDs.. the WOULDs and the COULDs out of it and focuses on what actually IS.   We all know how we wish our sons and their wifes would be... but the fact remains they are NOT..   SO.. since this site is for sharing and compassion, your input, while interesting is not particularly helpful... at least to me.  I have to deal with how things are..  SO do you have any insight on that?  From experience?  How do we fix it?   We all know we need to accept how it is and have our own lives and be happy.. BUT just knowing that does not make it so.  It does not take the hurt away.  This is why I value this place.   To be able to talk to other MILs and share compassion and understanding... being able to vent to ladies that have been there and to learn from them is the most helpful thing of all... I'm speaking for myself.. but I suspect others feel the same.  Louise has made this a caring and sharing site..  and that is what keeps me reading and participating.  It doesn't feel so much like a lecture coming from someone who understands how it feels to walk in my shoes. 

Pooh

See, this is where I get confused about responses here at times.  First, let me assure you, I totally blame my OS.  I also totally blame my DIL.  I'm an equal opportunity blamer.  Why?  Well I can only speak from my experience.  But his is how the conversations have went.

Me to OS: So are you doing Christmas Eve with DIL's parents or what are the plans.  We're trying to figure out when a good time to do ours would be that would work for you guys.
OS to Me: We are going to her parents Christmas day but not until around 4:00 p.m.
Me to OS: So would Christmas morning work for you guys?  That's when all the out-of-towners will be at your Grandmas.
OS to Me: Yes, that would work perfectly.

Next week

OS to Me: Hey, Christmas morning isn't going to work.  DIL has already made plans to go to her BFF's that morning to exchange gifts.
Me to OS: Ok, how about the weekend before or after?  You'll miss the other family members, but we can still do ours with Grandma.
OS to Me: Either one of those should work, I'll get with DIL.

Next week

OS to Me:  Hey, neither of those work because DIL says we are going to her cousins the weekend before and she's made plans to go shopping with her Mom the weekend after.
Me to OS:  Ok, when would work for you guys?
OS to Me:  I'll get back with you.

Several weeks later

Me to OS: We know anything?  It's two weeks until Christmas.
OS to Me: Umm.....well....we literally are booked the next month with Dil's family stuff.  I was going to come over myself on Christmas Eve morning while DIL went to BFF thing, but she got mad that I wasn't going with her.
Me to OS: Ok, well I hope you guys have a great Christmas

Literally, this was my conversations every holiday, every time we asked them to do something and even when we totally left the dates/times up to them.  Was I mad at my OS for not standing up to DIL and saying, "Ok look.  We need to make time for my FOO too.  Or, I know you want me to go with you, but I need to go over there for a bit."  Of course I was mad at him for not standing up for his FOO.  But at the same time, I am mad at DIL for not being cooperative either.  DIL doesn't like us so of course she doesn't want to come over.  I'm good with that.  But she also doesn't want him to come alone and gets mad at him when he suggests it.  So what do you think he's going to do?  He loves her, he married her and he doesn't want to cause problems in his own home.  I don't blame him for that...I blame her for that.  For making him choose.



We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us. -
Joseph Campbell

Pooh

Oh, and what I meant about getting confused.  We tell our DS's that they should be loyal to their wife and that their wife comes first.  I truly do believe that.  But then we say that the DS should take the blame for the loss of relationship with the FOO and not the DIL.  Well, that totally depends on each individual's own story and experience.  Yes, a lazy DS that just chooses not to be in charge of social interactions with his FOO should be held accountable.  But there are also situations where the DS gets caught in the middle of trying to do the right thing with his FOO and gets blocked by the DIL.  So when you say blame the DS and not the DIL, that doesn't always ring true. 

There is never a one-size-fits-all response when it comes to these things. 
We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us. -
Joseph Campbell

Lillycache

This is all very true.. But I have learned that how you raise someone is not always a guarantee of how they will behave as an adult.   In my case, my son does keep in touch.  He does bring the kids to see me..  he does remember Mothers Day and my Birthday even if it is with just a phone call..  BUT he is a guy...  He does NOT keep me in the loop like DIL does with her mother.   She has told me she speaks to her mom every day sometimes twice.....  My son calls every few weeks.   Obviously her mom knows all the goings on with the kids..   I don't have a clue.   When my son calls, I ask how the kids are and his reply is "Fine"..    I talk to the kids and try to make conversation.. "how's school"...."fine"..... What have you been doing.. "nothing"...   and so on.     I have no idea what is going on with the kids at school.  what activities they are in.. what interesting things they are doing..  WHY?   Because my son is a man and men really don't see that stuff as information of much importance.  At least not important enough to warrant a phone call.   My DIL certainly doesn't care.   She never called me even when we had a relationship of sorts.  If I would have called her everyday to talk like her mom does... how do you think that would have went over?   I would have been thought a nosey busybody.  Mom's of boys seldom if ever get much more from what I have been able to see.   It's how it is... and something we have to accept.