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son says "just act like I dont exist"

Started by allcriedout, June 22, 2010, 06:01:59 PM

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cremebrulee

August 01, 2010, 07:40:43 AM #30 Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 08:20:00 AM by cremebrulee
allcriedout

Please understand, I am trying to help you understand, the hurt and pain your going thru is very real and merited...you are being rejected by your own son, which is the most devastating situation...maybe all of us can give you our points of view and help that way...but as already stated...we are no where near counselors...therefore, we're only asking you to consider how we're viewing it...and it does sound like you are...but in situations like this, I believe we all need reinforcement and support....so, please know, we all do support you and only offer our deepest feelings on the matter...inserting some of our own experiences which might help...but please believe, we want to help.

QuoteI realize she is her mother's daughter but I was treating her as if she as one of my own.

It was nice of you to do so, however she is not your own...and that is the mistake we MIL's make sometimes...some DIL's are willing to love...some are not, and that is they're right...it's who they are and how they were raised...

QuoteThat is what I meant by the daughter I never had.  I didn't treat her like a stranger, I welcomed her with open arms into my family and into my heart. I am not a difficult person to get along with.

Several of my friends told me, I am so easy to get along with?  I made the same mistake with my DIL...welcomed her with open arms and immediately "expected" her to be like I was raised to believe.

QuoteHer relationship with her own mother is not exactly great although I am sure she is at least still talking to her own mother.

In the beginning of your relationship with her, and I'm just guessing here...but please consider, that she may not trust woman due to her dysfunction with her own mother.  She may not realize it, however, it's how she was...and fears getting close to women, b/c she was so hurt by her own mother...perhaps that is why she gets along better with your ex's wife...b/c your ex's wife had no expectations of her and she felt that...please realize, we all send out an energy...our feelings and thoughts are felt by others...

QuoteShe is more of a daddy's little girl. Yes, I did have expectations of what our MIL-DIL relationship would be like and it seemed to be that way at first. I was wanting to have the type of relationship with my DIL that I had with my ex-MIL. 
Your fortunate to have had a great relationship with your ex MIL..however, you must understand, we all her wanted that with our DIL's, but sometimes we can't have what we want...I went thru this for 12 years...never understanding that my DIL didn't want it...I refused to believe that and took it as a rejection, when in fact, she wanted things to happen slowly...she needed time...

QuoteI don't think my expectations were unrealistic
I don't think so either, but apparently your dil does...can you understand that?  I strongly believe by looking at her point of view, and your son's...and trying to understand it...with self examination, this situation your experiencing, will improve, however, it's going to take time...and a lot of hard work on your part.  Can you view her feelings, putting your own feelings aside and trying to see they're point of view....what I'm trying to explain is, if you detach yourself...and view this problem as you would, if it were happening to a friend of yours...you would view it differently...

Quoteor that they interfered with my ability to get to know the real her. Understand that this is how I am thinking versus how you are thinking and of course versus how she is thinking.

Your right, and you can never second guess how someone else is thinking and feeling and doing...and when our feelings become hurt and we're rejected, which is the worse thing that any human being can go thru...we see things differently...we actually start to believe what we're seeing, which could totally be way off base.

My son's step mother is a very evil person and a mutual friend asked me if to consider if maybe she had a hand in this problem between my DIL and myself....and I wouldn't be surprised if she did, however, I don't know...so what good does it do me, to dwell on it or look for an excuse...no one can make another person feel the way they do, unless they allow it
QuoteYes, I totally understand people are entitled to their feelings. Your feelings are your feelings, it doesn't matter if they are good or bad, and they are your feelings.  Most of the time when someone is reacting a certain way to something we say or do, the question is what is it inside of them that is causing them to react to it the way that they do. I stop and ask myself often, why am I reacting a certain way to a particular situation?

Your are absolutely right here...

QuoteThere wasn't more to the story of the chat than I am admitting to, I was trying to condense my original post so that it wasn't novel. I did recommend counseling on the chat with my son. They are newlyweds, in a foreign country, with money and relationship issues and counseling services are provided for free by the military.  I did recommend it because I am a strong advocate of it. I was finishing up a Masters in Marriage and Family Therapy when all of this started last fall. I have completed all of the coursework, I only needed to complete an internship to graduate. That is why when she wrote to me she mentioned something about my "dream job".  I dropped my internship in December because I was pretty much an emotional mess. I felt pretty hypocritical counseling others who were suffering with depression. The number of people seeking therapy for depression increases during the holidays. I was in therapy because a part of the Masters program is to go through at least 20 hours of therapy sessions.

Then I think your on the right track...however, therapy is only good when the therapist is like Magicgram....she is trying to help point out to you, where she see's only your mistakes...b/c by self examination...well, quite frankly it's the hardest thing to do...(why do you think Asian's view it as facing our own demons?) however, it is the best way to get answers...believe me, I've been through it...so you need to make certain...your not going into therapy and spending all your time talking, but the therapist is only agreeing with you, and not helping you face what you might be doing wrong....

QuoteI am not minimizing my part at all. Logically I know what is going on here, he is trying to keep the peace with her because he lives with her and now she can hold his two daughters over his head. She is very manipulative. She referred to me as manipulative, when in turn that is a description of her behavior.

Yes, that could be part of it...but your son has said things that point problems between you and him that are apparently deeply rooted and to him, very real...and you've got to find out why he feels that way...even if he did fabricate it, basically, you've got to consider that he may have some validity to his feelings...and again, I'm not picking on you...or taking sides...I'm throwing some ideas out there for you to reconsider...maybe in some ways he's trying to reach you...I don't know you...so there is no way I can say you are what he says you are...

QuoteI didn't know all of their problems and of course there is always two sides to the story but I did try time empathize with her to the best of my ability and it just didn't get interpreted that way.

No two people are on the same plain at the same time...logically you were ready to resolve, but she may not be...her feelings have been hurt deeply, she is only 20 years old, and due to her upbringing, she is going to take things maybe much more personal then you are aware of...I'm not saying your wrong, just trying to point out what she may be feeling...and by truly understanding that, considering that, it will help you understand...she isn't ready yet...your son isn't ready yet, and when you push yourself on someone, instead of allowing them to make the first move...it angers them more and pushes them away even more....

QuoteThe interpretation was that I was playing the victim trying to get them to feel sorry for me. Yes, I was upset to read my son's words that I play the victim.

The question is, could you be doing that, and not realizing you do?  Only you know the answer to that?  I'm simply throwing that out there...apparently your son feels that way, why?  And we all do it at times...some more then others...and you have every right to feel hurt...you've been through a lot...had a lot of disappointments...but is he saying that he feels you dwell on things to much and to long?

QuoteI printed that particular email off and took in to my therapy session so that my therapist could help me process it.  She brought up a good point- my 21 yr old son's definition of the word "victim" is entirely different from my definition of that word.  When I hear victim, I think of someone who just rolls over and plays dead and doesn't even try to bounce back from adversity.  That is NOT me.

She's right and a good start...playing victim to me, is someone who dwells on things way to long for whatever reason, and talks about it all the time, b/c that is the only way they can bring attention to themselves...but there are always other definitions and ways people look and see things...the trick is, to be able to understand that...

QuoteI am very much over the divorce but you are right, there is a lot of stuff that I have still been trying to work through that happened during the 15 year marriage.

That part of our lives leaves huge scars...which are hard to overcome...leaves us with a lot of baggage...the end of any relationship is like a death and it's devastating...serves up a lot of insecurities if we don't address it with counseling...

QuoteIn your opinion, it was rude that I showed up uninvited on her parents doorstep but in reality in was out of pure desperation.

No matter what reason you had for showing up on her parent's doorstep, it was very wrong of you to do that...and in my opinion...you have a sense of entitlement...your DIL's parents need to invite you...regardless of your mother's birthday, if anything you should have called...what you did is give them more reason to question your behavior..and again, I'm not taking sides...

QuoteOn my 40th birthday he bought me a mothers medal of honor necklace.
He wrote me from military boot camp to thank me for everything that I ever did for him while growing up.  I was at his boot camp graduation, not his father.  I know... not a competition right but I was there.

We very rarely see it, and when he tells you these things he means it, but it doesn't mean that he doesn't think you made mistakes...

QuoteThe latest thing, the joke on my other son's FB.  It was a joke and we have always been a very joking family- my three boys and I joke a lot. Any other time, my son would have seen that (he used to draw the penises on my car also) but she turned it into something it was not.

But can you please see, while you may view it as a joke, it was at someone else's expense which hurt them.  People get angry b/c they are hurt...

QuoteI didnt ever say anything about her being his cover-up, my other son joked and said that.  All I said was "you have a point"

But you agreed, and it is as if you were saying, "your right and you have every reason to feel that way, I feel that way to."  And by the way, you shouldn't be writing about this stuff on face book...for all the world to see...that is embarrassing and a misuse of facebook, which gives facebook a bad name...some people go in there and use it to demean others and it's wrong...and you as they're mother should not be encouraging them to do so, even though you are hurt, he is also your son, and it must have really hurt him deeply when he read that...I know it would me...can you see that? 

QuoteI already bought my granddaughters gifts before the FB blowup- so I sent it. I had it in my posession, I mailed it anyways. He said to act like he didnt exist, but I didnt translate that to act like my granddaughter didnt exist. I was not purposely poking a sleeping bear.  I had no hidden expectations behind my gifts and help. I have always and will always be more of a giver than a taker. I truly do appreciate your lengthy response but as the days go by you will learn a little bit more about me and in turn I hope to learn a little bit more about you.

Yes, I understand your point of view...but I think what was stated is, you were not wrong in your feelings about this...that is you and how you are...and we all would feel as you do...however, they asked you not to...but you did it anyway, which validated in they're minds, that you do not plan to see they're point of view and respect they're wishes...I believe you did it out of the goodness of your heart...but we MIL's have to realize our son's are adults and we don't have entitlement over them any longer as Mothers.  They are adults...and we have to respect they're wishes...

In your words at the end, you stated,
QuoteI truly do appreciate your lengthy response but as the days go by you will learn a little bit more about me and in turn I hope to learn a little bit more about you.
what your saying is, you do appreciate her words...but...which means...you think she's wrong...or your not willing to accept that her point of view might be right...

Honestly, I think and do believe this is workable b/c you've already started to view some very good points, you seem open to support even if it doesn't agree with you and you do consider the thoughts of others...even if you don't want to, and that is very hard to do... and I do believe this situation can be resolved...but the only way it can be, is by you changing your attitude and a great deal of reconstruction on your way of thinking...it isn't easy...believe me...but the one thing we all must do, which is hard...is to consider the feelings of others...by listening to them...

I realize some people who come in here are not yet ready to go here...they only want to vent and be validated for they're feelings...it's most difficult to view our own selves and admit, that even though we only meant well, our actions were interrupted wrong...but by understanding why someone else feels the way they do, helps us to grow in life...it is very hard to face and do...but I do believe your in here to learn, to grow and to resolve...otherwise you would have taken Magicgrams post insulting and utterly offensive to the point of anger and frustration...however, you didn't...you continued to share...because deep in your heart, I think you want change...you want a working relationship with your son, and are almost ready to consider they're feelings...

please note, when we are emotinally involved, we don't see as clearly as other folks do...and to consider the opinions of others helps us to invest in the future...ours...don't take it as we're ganging up on you or as personal..we've all been there, we've all made mistakes, I surely have...otherwise, my fude with DIL wouldn't have taken 12 years for me to see this...I am deeply trying to prevent you from wasting as much time as I did...and it takes much hard work to consider and admit the fact that I could have been wrong in my perspectives of DIL...we women get off on the wrong foot, and boy oh boy, we sometimes take it to our graves..where as men, have a disagreement, have words and maybe even a fist gight, but it's all forgotten and they can move on...we women cannot...my suggestion to you, is to try very hard to work on self, and let son and DIL take the lead...stop writing on facebbook about them...or agreeing with other sons about them...it only makes things much worse..

Please hang in there with us...with me...and keep writing.  There is a reason why you came upon this forum...there are reasons for everything that happens in our lives...

I really do hope and pray that all will work out...sending much love and concern for you...Creme

cremebrulee

I want to add something just learned, there is nothing shameful in being wrong...we've all been there...we've all been wrong, made the wrong decissions...effected the lives of others in a negative way...admiting it to self, is the test I believe...there is no possible way, kids come with a manual...we do our best we can at the time with the only tools we have, which is what our parents gave us...however...the destroyer is pride...pride which stagnates our growth, and it is important, cruical to our beings/soul and the souls of others that we progress...

luise.volta

Yes, that's the trick...not to get stuck...either in being wrong or being right. We are in a process. Life is a process.
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

miss_priss

I've been reading through this post for over a week now, and I was, erm... hesitant, to see other responses.

There is a wealth of love and support here.  It's hard sometimes to be supportive in the special way that person wants and needs support, and still be proactive in offering realistic advice (isn't that what we're all here for, advice, support, and coping?).  So one has to effectively balance their advice with the need to conserve the poster's feelings.  I'm going to try very hard here not to be too harsh....

I may be just that young "mutt," here but I think a good first step for you would be to realize that your DIL is not responsible for your son's actions and reactions towards you.  When someone we love doesn't treat us the way we think they should, or react to us the way we think they should....its SO EASY to say that someone else is "working their strings" (manipulating them), and to pull out of context tiny things that person says or does to "create" the horrible person we want them to be for our own egos to sleep at night.  It's clear to tell from your post that you feel your son is being manipulated by her into cutting you off, but from the other side of the fence, as a DIL, I think you could be completely off-base with that assumption.  There's still nothing in your posts that gives me any reason to believe that his reactions towards you weren't of his own accord, even though she did get involved in his defense....as most any spouse would, I think.  IMHO he had every reason to react, maybe not as strongly as he did, but the fact that he did react shows that he cares what you and his brothers think of him, or used to anyway!     

Your DIL might indeed be a real troll, but from reading your post you haven't really spent enough time with her to even know.  That's not necessarily your fault, because of the physical distance between you, but I read your post as a lot of speculation into her mindset...when you simply just don't know.  Overall, I'm gathering that the real issue is with your son, but you put a LOT of blame on her for that.  It appears that your DIL is supporting him, just as she's supposed to do as a spouse.  That being said, I'm not justifying her actions.  Quite the contrary in fact, she probably needed to just stay out of it, just as you probably shouldn't have used the term "high maintenance" to (indirectly) describe her.   

What you've said about her "nosing" around on Facebook and that she was "trying" to find some dirt, you need to let that go.  You posted on a public forum, you knew it was a public forum when his page was not private...and jokes or not, what you and your other children said about your son was hurtful.  That being a public page, she had every right to view it, and since you are family, she also had every reason to view it.  No, she didn't "stumble" upon it.  Of course she didn't!  But you and your other sons put it out there for her to find.  I won't lie...I stalk my MILs "public" facebook every single day, just to see what  or who's pot she's stirring today.  I have enough threatening information for a restraining order....just from her facebook!           

The fact that you were "joking" is totally irrelevant.  If it's a "family joke" you need to keep it in the family, not on a public forum (and a non-private facebook page IS a public forum).  Publicly questioning your own son's sexuality was wrong, and if that shoe were on my own foot as your DIL, I'd be very embarrassed.  And my heart goes out to your son, how humiliated and betrayed he must have felt when he read that!  Jokes or not, that was pretty crappy of you and your other children to even mention that, especially online where others can read it and question it.  Instead of clouding the gesture by pointing out how your DIL found it, you have to take responsibilty for that action as your own.

Showing up unannounced and uninvited at her parents' house, even out of "desperation," for your aging mother, was rude.  You have to take responsibility for that action.     

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not playing the devil's advocate and siding with your DIL.  It sounds like she WAY over-reacted in defense of her husband and herself and blew it up far bigger than what you meant it.  But your son is hurt, and he has every reason to be.  No, he shouldn't have made his relationship your business, that's his fault.  But as the wiser and more experienced mother, you should have known better than to get involved.  "Supporting your son" as you mentioned in your post, doesn't come with snide or snarky remarks about his wife, no matter how you feel about her, and whether you meant it the way she took it or not, you still said it.  You have to take responsibilty for that action. 

QuoteI am not minimizing my part at all. Logically I know what is going on here, he is trying to keep the peace with her because he lives with her and now she can hold his two daughters over his head. She is very manipulative. She referred to me as manipulative, when in turn that is a description of her behavior
.

Again, I really believe you are speculating, and you are tagging your DIL as the culprit here, and you haven't written anything in your post that would lead me to think she is really that manipulative  (over-reactive, definitely!  But not manipulative).  I realize there is more to the story than what is written here, so if you are going to continue to label her as manipulative...please give us some concrete examples. 

And I have to say this....of course he is trying to keep the peace with his wife, but that doesn't automatically mean that she is manipulating him to do so!!!  He's trying to keep the peace because he is a good husband spouse, and that's what good spouses do.  He loves her and he married her.  He wants that relationship to last.  He wants a family with two parents in the home, not just one.  You don't know her well, but he does!  He sees in her things that you will NEVER see, you're not supposed to see them.  You're not supposed to understand their relationship, thus its THEIR relationship, not yours.  I'm sorry that might be hard to swallow again, I just don't know how else to put that. 

I'm trying to be very objective here, and please understand that I am not writing with cruel intentions to hurt you, but MagicGraham stated what I think lots of us were thinking.  Kudos to her for approaching it objectively, conservatively and in a mmanner conscious of your feelings, though some of it was hard to swallow for you I'm sure.  But while there is definitely some over-reaction on the part of your son and DIL, I read their actions as purely reaction to things you've done to hurt them.  Your intentions may have been the best, but those intentions obviously weren't presented in a way that would conserve THEIR feelings. 

I re-read through this (and forgive me if I skipped over the part where you apologized to them), but I couldn't find any mention of an apology besides your DILs apology to you when you showed up at her parents' house.  I feel like you really owe your son and DIL a sincere apology if you want to even begin to mend that relationship, and even then it's going to take a lot of forgiveness and understanding from all parties.  I wish it were possible that you ALL go to counseling, together, to work through this.  It sounds like you all need it, just to learn how to effectively communicate with eachother and be mindful of those pesky BOUNDARIES....counseling is not just for "crazy" people.         

Our therapist offered "phone sessions" for us and my MIL because we live so far away (eventhough she wouldn't attend them...it was a good idea!).  Would you maybe be open to that?

                     

Pen

In some cases I think a DIL can influence DS. I know that's hard for some DILs to acknowledge, but it does happen. It's tough when it happens to us MIL/FILs who raised sons with the notion that their wives come first no matter what. I guess we never figured that there were women out there who would take advantage of that!
Respect ... is appreciation of the separateness of the other person, of the ways in which he or she is unique.
-- Annie Gottlieb

neecee

About 8 months into our "banishment", it dawned on me that our son was equally culpable in our mess.  For a long time, I kept thinking "Oh, he will wake up soon".  Slowly, I began to see that he was helping to fuel her fire.

Our youngest is my stepson.  His mother abandoned him from ages 5 to 10 yrs. She would have happily let my husband raise him until another mom-person came along.  She then began to pressure him to live with her and her current boyfriend...who later became her husband.

This move interrupted the natural order of his relationship with his dad.  Sons time in his teens, when he should have been asserting independence with his dad, he was spent drugging and drinking at his "good mother"s house.  Dad was kept at arms length.  I did not like that at the time, but it was not my decision to make.  As a blended family we have always deferred to the primary parent of our three kids.  This allowed us to use our intuition about our kids.  We always shared parenting and feel we did it pretty well until now.

So, Dad deferred. He felt son would come to him willingly when he was ready to be an equal partner in a relationship. Dad has many male friendships lasting many decades.  His friends are with men of  different ages as well.  He is skilled at communicating and other men like him too. 

I don't think son knows how to do this work without some modeling from dad. Son seems to be wanting his wife to do the work for him...out of fear?? or something else??

Apparently, son, in  his quiet moments with DIL, expressed his childhood resentments and hurts.  His wife sees herself as "big momma", stepping in for those weaker and frail, decided to fix all his hurts.  Consequently,  DIL might have built her case against us out of sons' expressed emotions; this in turn gave her license to behave so poorly and with such disrespect. 

Anywhooo...like most of us, these are complex issues with a bottom line. 

We are so happy to be without the drama now.  We love our son and would naturally love his children, but I see no hope for this relationship without years of good family therapy.  Not every therapist is skilled to handle such things.  I don't know if my husband would do this and I am not sure if i would right now either. 

What do you think?  I have never overstepped my step mom boundaries and insisted on therapy and yet, I have a niggling in my ear to begin this process. I did my own therapy in the beginning of this fiasco and she said to wait it out.  She felt no good would come of it.  I wonder about it now that emotions have died down?  I would love input.  This situation is much worse that I could paint, but  what the heck, I would rather hear it here than in Ann Landers too.

miss_priss

Neecee - how wise you are to step back and let the emotions die down.  That's a terribly hard thing for anyone to do.  If you are willing to go to counseling and want to do it, I think all you can do is offer via letter or email.  I applaud you immensely for wanting to go, I think family counseling is a wonderful thing.  My DH and I went, even when his mother refused to.  It helped us understand her behavior and learn how to stop it from destroying our relationship, and also taught us how to effectively communicate with each other without fighting.  It was the best thing we ever did together, besides our daughter of course.  :)

Are you sure you wouldn't like to adopt me as a DIL?  ;D

luise.volta

I think we are all learning here that stepping back for a bit (which implies shutting up for a bit, as well) is often the best way to take stock of the situation. It sure works for me! Thank you one and all.
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

barelythere

Quote from: luise.volta on August 02, 2010, 03:10:59 PM
I think we are all learning here that stepping back for a bit (which implies shutting up for a bit, as well) is often the best way to take stock of the situation. It sure works for me! Thank you one and all.

Very, very difficult to step back and shut up without first venting and reacting to a slap in the face, which is the great thing about this site.  Thank you for the site and the time you've given it. If not for the discussions back and forth, we'd never come to any resolution.

luise.volta

Yes, nearly impossible! And we do a good job here of venting and being heard. Very therapeutic. Sending love...
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama