Trust question

[Elise]

I am thinking a lot about trust broken with my ds over the past years.  Having narrowly avoided complete estrangement, in recent months he is respectful in communication on the phone. He has refused to explain or get into counseling to take what to me are necessary steps to clear the air between us, allowing me to understand what I may have done which made him change so in the past years with me or why he is so angry now if he still is. He certainly was angry for so long. He changed com[completely when he got with his now wife - immediate change. He and DIL talked it over he said and they decided they want me in their lives, so that must be why he is abiding by my required boundary of respectful communication finally now. I have no trust after the many incidents in which he betrayed our relationship over the last few years and find it very hard to see how I am ever going to trust him again without understanding what led to all of this and what happened from his viewpoint and he from mine. It seems to me the elephant will always be in the room otherwise. Can anyone give me another way to view this? 
Now there is going to be a baby around Xmas and while that has given me something to connect with my DIL about and I am contacting her biweekly, she never initiates contact. She is however being much nicer than she ever has been with me in recent years and we talk about her pregnancy, which to date is very uncomfortable for her. I have asked DS to examine his expectations around the baby and my involvement therein, talk it over with his wife and get back to me after he told me without her present on the phone they wanted me there when the baby comes.  His ministers' wife told me the night of their wedding they would not want me around when their babies are born - in front of my son though dil was not in earshot. He said nothing and when I reminded him of this in the recent call he said he doesn't remember. It was right after the minister told me I was now fired, which he did acknowledge he remembered last fall when it came up. I did tell him it is normal for the dil to proabaly want her mother with her for the birth, not me, and very undertandable in my opinion.
They live 18 hours by car away from me in a large city and I shudder at the thought of staying with them period, much less with the tensions of a new baby. I cannot afford a hotel nearby either, though maybe couch surfing some where in vicinity.  Advice?
They have been very nice in sharing pregnancy news and ongoing stuff relating to that. 

[Karenna]

You have six months - if there is any way at all to save some money, consider taking a motel room.  Stay for fewer days if you must (although that's difficult to do when it's an 18-hour drive).

You'll get better rest, and you won't put DIL under as much stress.  It's a (relatively) small investment in your peace of mind.

[not like the movies]

new baby arrivals are so stressful for fist time parents. I have my own personal rule to visit a few months later when parents are rested and routines established. that's been successful for me.
I get my own place and I am in and out.

[pam1]

Elise, I relate to your trust issues surrounding your DS/DIL and the questions you ask.  I find myself asking the same thing concerning my in laws.  They do not want to clear the air yet want a lot of contact.  I can certainly understand your apprehension, although I have no advice since I'm in the same boat.

As far as baby, I would wait until they tell you what to do.  It's possible they won't even know until after delivery.  A lot of my friends make many elaborate plans for baby, but baby does what baby wants.  Asking DS for a firm answer right now is probably a little much for him and DIL. 

[Elise]

Thanks Karenna, not like the movies and Pam.  Your responses confirm my sense it is ok not to stay with them should I visit after the baby comes. I think ds is broaching all of this without perhaps dil being on the same page. She has not said anything about this to me.  I know I would not have wanted my mil around much right after my ds was born, yet I  have seen a number of daughters of my friend group who very much wanted their mothers there for and after the birth for weeks at a time.  Since the connection to my dil is only a few phone calls in recent months, I do not consider our relationship close.

Pam - the trust issues are really difficult to deal with once broken. I can't seem to find any way other than time  and lots of it with completely reliable experiences of him to think trust can rebuild in any meaningful way. Clearing the air would involve a level on honesty I do not think he is capable of now and unfortunately that has been resisted so much I have about given up on it with ds and am just trying to go on with some lighter connection.  He too  wants a lot of contact, more than I for sure. Meaningless texts and superficial calls all about him and them don't do much for me. He does ask about me and I am reticent to open up very much about feelings on my part, so I just stick to factiods - what I am doing, etc. rather than the type of more personal communication about ideas and thoughts we shared until a few years ago.

[Begonia]

Elise:  Lots of good advice on here.  Reading over your posts, you seem to know what would make you comfortable.  You say several things that are key: 1) not close to your DIL; 2) 18 hr drive; 3) lack of finances for hotel; 4) not hearing directly from DIL about her wishes.

I like the idea about visiting later. And I would not wait for anyone to make your mind up for you, but for you to decide firsthand what it is you want and then make your decision known, at an appropriate time and in a gentle way.  There might be a lot of relief on all sides if you wait to visit. The birth of a baby is an uncertain time.  My DIL suffered from PP depression after both births, so I was not around at all until much later.  I did not know this was the reason they kept me away until many years later.  And this is not something they knew before the first birth.  DIL would not have wanted me to see her in distress. 

As for the trust issues.  Your last comment says it best: You recognize that you need to pull back.  Hurtful as it is to have this different communication with your DS, based on the past it is important for you to not stir things up right now...this is a tough time in their lives if DIL is not doing so well with the pregnancy.   In my case my DS is not to be trusted in what he says to me, so I am very careful not to involve him in any of my personal life.  Because of this, right now we are having no contact.  So, I would take pleasure in the little texts from your DS just for the sake that he is reaching out without trying to make it go deeper than that.  Much less drama that way.  I wish you luck.  Bravo for being so strong and congratulations on the new addition to the family in the future. 

[Doe]

So, I would take pleasure in the little texts from your DS just for the sake that he is reaching out without trying to make it go deeper than that.

I agree with Begonia - maybe rather than comparing what is happening now with the past, you could find a way to grow with the new normal (thanks to Lillycache for that concept).   I think his actions are more important than his words.

And I agree to go with the flow as far as the birth and to not stay with them.

Sounds like things are looking up! (from my perspective)

[luise.volta]

My take is that trusting others is a lost cause. We are all inconsistent, volatile at times, learning and growing and at the effect of many dynamics, known and unknown. I can't trust myself to react in prescribed ways in advance, either. I would step back and let DS learn to examine his expectations on his own, in his own time frame. DS is on his path in life and you are the observer, from my point of view, and no longer the coach. (That was very hard for me to get.) Find a way to fade out and fit on and focus elsewhere as much as possible. We need to give them room to stagger and fall and then get back up, just like we did. (And like I am still doing at 85.) Our growth is our business and theirs is theirs.

[Begonia]

Luise says: My take is that trusting others is a lost cause.

Oh, Luise, I really loved this..so matter of fact that I had to chuckle out loud.  I really think you have something there.  If we just put less stock in our perception of "trust" (speaking for myself here) life would be smoother for me in so many ways.  Trust has always been an issue for me and if I just could believe more that all my energy in trying to trust or not trust is a "lost cause" I would have many happier days!!

My wise sister says, "Well, if you judge this one and that one, pretty soon you won't have anyone." 

(this is an aside--sorry Elsie).  When it comes to trust I ask myself: Who would I trust to tie the bands on my ankles if I went bungee jumping?

[Doe]

My take is that trusting others is a lost cause.

Luise, you crack me up.  Yes, trusting is a bit overrated.

[Elise]

Wow - now that is a  new idea for me to ponder/ explore. I always have thought trust foundational in familiar relationships. Once again Louise, Doe and Begonia, you blow me out of the water. Thank you.  And all of you are correct about the trust issue, as I  know I do not struggle with it in friendships now where I did when I was younger - Now I have the mind set that 'friends are friends in spots' type of thinking at times. I can apply this to ds and dil as well - it does not diminish the connection where it truly exists in either context.
I would want to tie the bands around my ankles myself - love that one Begonia. And I had not thought of trusting as judgement before - that helps me a lot, cuz I certainly do not want to judge others, I have my hands full just handling me! With the last few years in mind, I will think of it as discernment regarding ds words.
Thanks for the reminder I am lucky ds and dil want me at all and I will hereby take some pleasure in those texts, etc instead of view them as reminders of what I lost.
What a giant leap forward you all gave me today. i am determined not to be stuck in my story yet sometimes find myself there anyway. Can you see my deep deep 'namaste' with my hands held in front of my heart and my head bowed honoring the spirit in all of you?

[Begonia]

Namaste back to you, Elise, and many good wishes as you keep your focus on what feels good to you.  You are amazing in your growth!! 

[Keys Girl]

I'm with just about everyone here.  I wouldn't be in any hurry to rush over until I was invited and I would use the coming months to work out some kind of deal somewhere (a local hotel or B&B) to trade/barter some of your services/home baking/whatever for a place to stay.  This could be useful after the baby comes and it's great that you have some time to work on it.

KG

[Smilesback@u]

Not knowing all the details of how trust was broken, being able to avoid complete estrangement is a credit to you both and shows the love is not lost between you.  You have DIL's support as well and that helps improve your DSs' behavior.  I admire your boundary setting for respectful communication and know that helps change your relationship for the better.  The past is the past - so I will shoot that elephant and remove the carcas so people do not have to keep looking at it.  (Hope that is not too graphic?)  They sound excited about sharing the pregnancy and newborn with you.  I would act as if things are getting better between you, and lead the way for things to get better.  Best foot forward   Hope you can afford a visit in all ways!       

[Elise]

Thanks Smiles and KG. I'm working on that elephant - it is a big one though to slay all alone. In India, the elephant God is Ganesha and I have a pic of him - always trunk to the left for best luck - which says 'you do best, Ganesha does rest". So I am trying to see my elephant in that light now.

DS son was pushing again tonight on phone for me to be there around birth time ( due date 12-24) and to stay with them.  I again asked him to initiate a conversation on this including DIL.  I think it is a clear consensus here, it is best not to stay with them at such a stressful time, and he insists otherwise and that they want the 'help'.  Sort of have mixed feelings about the 'help' part, since dil's mom told a friend of mine at our garden party last year at my home that she is glad she doesn't have to do any of that kind of care anymore when my friend's 15 month old grandaughter toddled over. Seems clear she is not the help type mom or grandma in waiting, she is the 'fun' one. They spend almost all vacations with DIL family - almost 2 months in last 1 1/2 years since wedding, Europe, Asia, cottage, Xmas holiday for 10 days to 2 weeks, just returned from having DIL parents join them for 7 days sailing trip, NY weekends. Versus 18 hours in same time period with me and that was to pick up his furniture and sleep and insult me in the process verbally- though to be fair after last July I didn't want to be with them alone anyway due to horrible treatment by son and polite, chilly behavior of DIL. DIL parents  take 10 days to 2 weeks vacation in recent years at Xmas and through New Years. I sort of feel I am being set up to be used again and have concern DS and perhaps DIL too, if I hear same from her, just want me for the tough part. Maybe my ds is just terrified at the demands which will be made of him if he and dil are alone at that time, or have her parents or mom there. I am the sort to take care of all ages of kids, though am not comfortable doing so unless I feel parents and I are on the same page. I do not want to be the servant/doormat. Am I worrying about this needlessly? Can such a stressful time with an outsider there ( me) actually be an opening for we three to become closer?  It concerns me a narrowly averted total estrangement 6 months ago, could find real fodder to drive us over the cliff in this scenario. DIL is not having a good pregnancy and ds already sounds exhausted -and the tougher part is probably ahead.  I am sorry I am whining.