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Mother - Grandmother - Woman

Started by forever spring, May 19, 2012, 11:26:34 PM

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forever spring

DS left family 6 months ago - I now know it was for another woman - didn't know it then.

I'm torn between being a DM and loving DS no matter what, bottom line loving your children unconditionally and
being a GM who is trying to keep lines of communication open with other GPs (FOO) to make sure that GKs are not alienated.
As a woman I feel deeply about what xDIL is going through.I didn't get on with her when all was okay but now I cry for her too.

Now DS has decided he will only see his DSs (4 and 1 1/2) with the new woman who gives him love and support in these difficult times.
I have told him that he is not doing the right thing by anybody but he is stubborn. As a result he is not seeing his DC -I'm so torn because I can't help but agreeing with xDIL and her FOO now.
MY DS is not behaving correctly in this matter and I'm so upset. He comes from a stable family, has no role model for this kind of behaviour. What is happening and what can I do? I would be prepared to go and help again with the GKs which means leaving DH on his own again but I fear I'm losing DS when doing this.

Thanks for listening, WW.

Pen

So sorry to hear this, FS. Was DS's decision to only see his DC w/new woman his decision alone or do you think the new woman had something to do with it? My SM didn't allow my DF to see his AC w/o her, either. She still insists on butting in on phone calls after all these decades!
Respect ... is appreciation of the separateness of the other person, of the ways in which he or she is unique.
-- Annie Gottlieb

luise.volta

My take is that the only way to go is to try to not take sides. It is nearly impossible but it is also the only way I know of to help. Our AC make choices and learn...or don't. What we try to instill in them and how they turn out often don't seem to be remotely connected. When we love...AC, GC, DILs, et al; we can't judge. That's not our job. And our opinions are just that...perspectives. What is needed is support and caring for all concerned...and, as I said, that's nearly impossible. However, it can be our goal. We are learning, too. We, too, are "works in progress" and can learn and grow and expand.
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

Doe

Have you talked with DS to tell him that you don't want to lose your relationship with the GKs?  Can you convince him that your love for him is separate from your love for the GK and you want both?  I'm thinking that if he is mature enough, he can see that you can love him and also love them.

I wouldn't get involved with the visitation scene at all - he has to figure that one out. 

What a tough situation. 

forever spring

Thank you for your replies.
The worst thing is that I and DH don't recognize DS any more. When did he loose trust in us? He must be so confused.

I have told DS that I can understand why he left etc. but that I can't understand why he wants to bring in the new GF so soon after he left. He says he is his rock now but it's all far too early. He didn't like my criticism and thinks I'm not behind him any more and listen to what he perceives to be lies from xDIL and FOO. I did stress that I/we love him unconditionally but that this does not mean that we can't tell him when we think that he is doing wrong.  I feel that if I agreed with what he is doing now or kept out of it, that would be wrong as well.
I thought DS would get his own place where I could go to see the GKs. Now he lives with new GF and we don't even know where that is. Do we ever stop being parents? Should he not consider himself lucky to have caring parents who tell him when he's wrong? Is he totally his own man now?
I got a kindly worded email from xDIL today to say that she would be happy if we want to see the GKs. I'm not rejoicing - that would be too early - but I have been waiting for her to get in touch and she has now. I will take time to send a considered reply.

Should I just STOP thinking about all of this?

I'm afraid I may be doing more harm than good by trying to stay involved. I just miss the GKs. They grow up and don't know me. I think for me at the moment the bottom line is that I want to be part of their lives, so the GM is the strongest part in this triangle of confused emotions.

luise.volta

"Should he not consider himself lucky to have caring parents who tell him when he's wrong?"

My take is that there aren't any "shoulds." We raise them and we let them go and they are in charge of the "shoulds" from that point on...learning lessons or not...consequences...other options. We step back and take our concepts of right and wrong with us.

We may not be able to stop thing about something...but we can focus elsewhere and get on with our lives when we realize our children...and theirs...are not our lives. Sending love...
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

Ruth

I went through something similar to this, Forever Spring.  My SIL was better to me than a son, and he and DD were married 13 years when it ended, and it ended due to DD having affair and of course, many problems in the marriage, but I loved SIL and was able to see that the bulk of the suffering was on him, in most ways.  I ended up seeing a counselor about my feelings of ambivalence, and my struggle to try and be supportive to DD when I had such a loathing for the pain and injustice sil had had to endure, not even to mention the toll on took on the g/c, three years have passed.  The counselor told me I had to support DD no matter what, and that I was very wrong to keep any communication open to SIL, I felt I had to throw him under the bus.  This was hard to walk through, I did have to cut off communicating with him, until they were able to stabilize and heal somewhat.  I don't think there's any clean way to get through this, Forever, it will be painful and I can tell you that you have to force yourself to be callous and not allow yourself to be drawn into sympathy with dil, because your overtures of sympathy will get back to your DS and you run the risk of a cut off, or a big family crisis that none of you want or need.  The counselor told me that SIL had to go to his own mother for sympathy and support, he did not have that option open to him.  I hate what happened.  But I  have been able to keep a good distant relationship with SIL, on MD he called and left me a msg that he loved me and wished me a good day.  This is still more than my DS did, still even after being thrown under the bus, sil is better to me than ds.  go figure.

forever spring

Quote from: luise.volta on May 20, 2012, 07:27:58 AM
We are learning, too. We, too, are "works in progress" and can learn and grow and expand.

Thank you so much for this thought. I knew I would get a different perspective if I posted my current plight  on this site. I guess I have to step back from mothering, it's not wanted, not needed and may indeed be counter-productive.

Thing is, before all of this happened and I was in the midst of it, I knew all these things - in theory. How different it all is when it hits you.
Thanks again.

forever spring

Thank you Ruth  for your reply. I have made a few mistakes then in the past days it seems. However, I feel that all is not lost with DS. I will try and refrain from taking sides now and just go with DS. This is so difficult at the moment. We had a wonderful time together last month and felt that we were getting through to him, we talked and laughed together but then it all went pear-shaped when we heard (through FOO) that he lied to us. Maybe I should stop all of this and just bury my head until all of this is over. Fortunately DH has kept really quiet so far, so at least there is a safe haven for DS. I have always stressed to DS that what I said was my opinion only.

Pen, I don't even know the GF yet, so I have no idea how she evaluates the situation. I would expect her to take a step back but what do I know?

luise.volta

FS - I am going through the same thing. I'm a nurse and have done geriatric nursing (long ago.) Lots of theory and yes, distance. The situation I now find myself in...as the long-term care giver of my husband (100 years old) who has been living in our campus nursing facility for the last two years is something else entirely. Frightening, overwhelming, confusing, exhausing...nothing "theoretical" " about it.
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

lancaster lady

I don't think we stop being GP's because their parents split up .
They are the innocent party and must surely wonder why Grandma hasn't called to see them .
I don't see why you can't see the GC on neutral ground .
If it was me , I would tell my DS if he has no objection , I am meeting the GC .
Perhaps your DIL could arrange for you to have them for an afternoon .
You are not supporting either side by doing this IMO , just keeping contact with the GC.
Has he forbidden you to see them ?
Pity they can't sort out their differences without involving the kids.

justanoldgrandma

I have a female relative who was devastated when her dd left her dh; actually the dd had been unhappy for some time due to lack of physical intimacy despite counseling.....she actually didn't leave him for the new bf but she did find him right away after an unofficial separation.

My relative, a gma, was so upset she cried for so long, said her soon to be ex sil treated her like a queen, that she didn't like the new bf, etc.  However, she knew the dd was unhappy and was grieving the loss of her sil (who didn't actually treat her like a queen, was just around a lot of years.)  i did think the dd latched on to the new man too soon, advised her to date, but she didn't want to date; she wanted the security of another relationship.  The dd and new bf  are still together, unmarried but go to counseling some and seem to get along.  i don't think the dd regrets leaving her ex.

The worse thing for the gma was that her dd moved hours away and she had lived very close by; so she lost a nearly daily visit from her.

The gma really had in her mind that her ex sil was a great sil, rather idolizing him after the leaving....she is over it now, but it was a grieving process to lose her ex sil.

She had no problem w the gd, who was grown and already out of the house, which is so different from this case where the gc are young. 

i think it's great that your ex dil is kind enough to say you are welcome to see the gc.  i wouldn't hesitate to see them all i could.  Hopefully their dm won't want to discuss the marriage and you can keep your focus on the gc who do need you, i would think.

Your ds may be acting like a man in love, maybe dominated by the new gf, who knows, but there is something that is making him say he won't see his dc w/o the woman.  There may be a lot to the breakup of the marriage he won't discuss; he may be embarrassed by taking up w the other woman so soon and defensive about it.

Although my ds wasn't even engaged, i grieved when he broke up w his long time gf whom I thought of as a dd and soon met and married a girl who  is unattached emotionally to us.  I heard from the old gf and her parents who felt my son was a jerk but I knew he was unhappy so wasn't surprised.....it hurt that they implied he wasn't honorable but they were hurt and I didn't try to defend him, just listened.  But my son hurt when he hurt his old gf bc he did care about her.  Of course, the new gf was jealous anyway....I didn't try to advise ds bc he just didn't love his old gf any more....

I would try not to make your ds feel you disapprove of him bc although he may not show it, he has to be confused/"in love"/guilty feeling/defensive......don't know if new gf has these visiting the children rules, but he needs to see them; hopefully it won't be too confusing on the children and hope the ex wife can bear it.....

I'm only glad that you and ds aren't estranged; you may have said all you can; he's not listening any more than our dss when we say something about their wives; he'll have to work through it.

just see those gc bc you are fortunate the ex wife is so generous.  this is hard!  but you never know the ending.  Try to keep your relationship w ds and gc and try not to side w the ex wife; you can be friendly to her when you see her, but as said, you can't side w her.

NewMama

FS, what a terrible situation to be in. I wish I had some advice for how to deal with your DS, but I don't.

I do think however you should maintain communication with your xDIL for the sake of your GKs. I'm saying this as a GD who's paternal GM kept in contact with my DM after my parents split. My DM is the one who mostly maintained our relationship with her. Although we saw our dad every other weekend, most of them weren't spent with my GM, unless it was a family event. I have no idea what went on behind the scenes with  my parents during their split, but we weren't privy to any of it (thank goodness) and were never made to feel in the middle. Keep the topic of conversation to your GKs and don't discuss him or the reasons for their split at all, even if you see things from her perspective now.

forever spring

Justanoldgrandma and Newmama (nice one that!) thank you so much for your response in the matter. You can't imagine how valuable this is for me. I can't talk to my friends now - not that they don't want to listen but they have never experienced any thing like this, so have no view, how can they?
Your direct experience in the matter is very useful for me. I'm in the phase now where everything is raw and I know I made a mistake telling DS that I don't think it's right for him to see the children with new GF. I'm not taking sides at all but I felt I had to say what I was thinking and not keeping my feelings hidden. (I did this all the time when he was married to xDIL and it has almost made me ill.) I think my relationship with DS is strong enough to weather the storm. But he is in love now and as the old saying goes: Love makes blind.
I have decided to be open to him about what xDIL and FOO tell me and be open about my replies to them, if any. I have to reply to the email my xDIL sent, that's only common courtesy on the one hand but on the other it also allows me to see the GC soon, I hope.
I really feel like a bamboo swaying in the wind into all directions. I love peace and harmony (who doesn't?) and this strife and conflict is just too bad. But there is a big positive in this scenario. The GC are in this world and they are wonderful.
NewMama, it was useful to hear the GC's point of view of a break-up. The bottomline is that they are part of me and to loose contact with them would just be too sad. On the other hand I have to think about the future. DS is only 31 and there may be more GK's. This means I can't ignore a future DIL.
Justandoldgrandma. Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in detail quoting an actual case and the outcome. I'll be able to read it again and again when things get rough. I wish there'll come a time when our family will unite in the love for the children and make their lives as good as possible under the circumstances.
From the bottom of my heart, thank you all.

justanoldgrandma

I am glad your relationship is strong enough that you don't have to stifle your feelings.  My relative cried in front of her dd about her breakup, letting it all out and that was healing for her; she didn't criticize the new bf bc she didn't know him, just the dd's leaving her dh......the dd felt bad for hurting her ex and her mom but she was so unhappy she had to leave her then husband.  The ex did cry on his mil's shoulder and she knew he was depressed; he really should have found a different place to let it out bc that was so hard on the mother;

I'm sure your ex dil will find confidants elsewhere and not vent w you; as others said, picking up the gc for a day out or babysitting them in their home while the ex dil gets out would be great; she sounds like a good dil and mother to be initiate a vist w the gc.

You're right, no one gets your situation, even your friends (a counselor if need be would) and soon the friends tire of hearing.  So WWU is so valuable; so many people get it here.

I do hope you can talk w ds (my ds is so private that I could say very little and he was hurting anyway; stifling it all does hurt; am having to do it now); I know you'll be able to talk w him about his children and how important to see them; that's the most important thing now; and I can see you don't want to criticize the new gf or their relationship bc as you said, they may stay together and you don't want to jeopardize the relationship w her or your ds or lose the chance w further gc.....

Hopefully you'll see that what you care about is him and the gc; the rest will fade away.....

Divorce is so hard but it can be borne if the relationship between the AC and parents and gc is kept intact....

I'm glad the example helped; it's been a few years now and everyone accepts the new bf and the dd is happy, the gma has let it all go, even likes the new bf, the ex dh has moved on.....the adult gd sees both her mom and dad....it can happen; it's hard not to get involved too much when it seems the hurt won't end, but it can.

Good luck w your visit w ds and I know you'll keep it focused; he's probably a bit defensive now, he's not the good guy....I had to be careful not to sympathize w my ds's ex gf and her family (I had to just hurt for them) bc i couldn't lose my son.....

Let us know how it goes; good listeners here!