now how to handle this new situation

[artlady]

Wow it is so good to wake up , with my morning coffee to find some very wonderful women have given me some great support. I might even be motivated to go to the gym today, thanks ladies. OK
Crystalball- you must work with our counselor( we started seeing 3 days after gs birth). She has said basically the very same things. He has anger at family from childhood , blames dad for not playing ball with him , taking them to play sports etc ( hey my dad died of cancer when i was 7 so I never had the chance to do anyting with him and my older brothers played sports as my mom took them m bless her heart she even took golf lessons so she could help them, now that was a funny childhood memory).
Ruth-  She is a ppsychology/human resource major not a pyshologist but she had all those courses and use to be able to tell me what was wrong with some folks lol. As they say love is blind. He really did a great snow job on all of us and all are so perplexed with it , dumbfounded and now don't' know exactly how to act around him , so it is eggshells when he comes rather than the "not telling what crazy thing someone will say next'. Our family is one that laughs , cuts up and carries on with each other , very fun loving and enjoy each other we are the dame when he is here but I think we are a little more guarded so not to say something that he will think is directed to him although there have been times that would have been perfect for that. LOL  WE have all been around odd personalites but as a whole they are at least cordial , we just don't know how to act around one of our own being the way SILs. So counselor said he is a controller, manipulator and narcissist personality type , don't' look for him to change , try to change him, follow his lead when around him , if he talks , talk to him, if he is ignoring you , ignore him ( although if we ignore him , then he goes to DD asks why we are ignoring him , so she said tell her we were  following his lead).
LL-   We don't' react we just act as though we didn't see it or hear it . WE have never been treated like this to know what to do that is why we started with a counselor /pyscharistist 3 days after the gs was born and he told us to leave 2 times . DD heard him and in between the two times she tried to buffer it by saying " you know we are new parents and we don't' know what we are doing " so then he said it again " I think it is time you both leave" . WE now have figured that since we were not called that they were on the way to the hosp, she called after the birth and he was downstairs with baby sine they to do a little to him at birth( breathing not right at first)  so when we walked in , she had gone down , he was in shock to see us as he had no idea she called us behind his back so he was ill at us the whole time , his body language , his coldness and the few words he ever spoke to us was very telling .Like counselor said yesterday , she sees it but is keeping head in sand or she is not aware of it as she is so in-tuned to the baby but this was happening before baby too .
He blames everyone else for probmes in his life , never looks in the mirror to think his actions affect others etc. I don't' think he will change and my concern is for her , if our love , support and visits are going to become a problem for her ,  I don't' want it to be taken out on DD or GS, so I"m willing to wait , let them settle the dust , follow the lead and jump through whatever hoop I have to for the love of my DD and Gs. Her dad was emotional, physically, and mentally abusive , I know the pain , the signs and how it was for 7 years , she was 2 when he died .The sad thing is her dad could charm everyone but he did always have an outgoing personality to efveryone when in public which doens't match this one ( of which this guy is not as charismatic).The old  SIL beffoer wedding  is not that outgoing just pleasant outside of family.  I just pray he doesn't hit her , or that we witness ( although I've heard his say things to her i found to be putting her down in front of me ) as DH will come out of his skin ( he has been holding back ) as in his work he saw too much of domestic violence and abusive relationships. I"m so sorry she is living with as the counselfor has said " a man that apprears to have a narcissistic personality who is a control freak and very  .
Just wish we would have see this coming , he has blindsided family and friends . Counseolor says i do need to talk to DD , jsut put it as I, WE  how we feel uncomfortable around him, what can we do or have we done , dont' pooint finger at hime , amke it look like our conern so that might open dialog and hlep her to see or thinkg about it . I juist widh DD and I could talk on phone as from previous things said and how thigns turned out we know that he is reading her emials, texts, facebook etc, ( he is a computer researh anyahlis for fiber optics). So I hate not to respond to her but i'm sure what ever i say he can counter it or use it to work her just like he wants . Ok got to go jiggle , not been motivated now for 12 weeks to do much but i'm getting out of that funk starting today by golly. Thanks and happy Friday to you all . Keep sending my thoughts i need all the help I can get . Love , hugs and lots of fun

[artlady]

Ruth
Oh yes we talked about it in depth the next day , as she was driving alone back home so she had privacy,. WE know she knew it was not good as she came over after reception to condo to thank us again , Did he come , no as he has never thanked us for anything. WE even made it possible for his parents to get the rehearsal dinner site for free due to DH's association with that golf course , we ended up paying the flower bill that was sent to us that was suppose to be paid by his parents or him, poor DD has been tying to pay us back, as it was rather large . WE have talked about things concerning different situations , we can talk about things and i know she is feeling a wall right now just like I am so that is why the counselor is saying open it up . I've got to be very careful how i do it as not to put her in a place to defend him .Day after wedding she was all over the place with things that he said upset him but we never really got it nailed down as to what it was , other than he didn't like the Blue Devil, how he was dancing and thought it was inappropriate . Still no one can believer such a fun time was so bad for him as everyone thought it was a blast. She said then and has said before when he has acted rudely that it takes him to time to get overt things but he will come around just be patient , well in two years he has not changed to the before wedding SIL . Right now she is newlywed of 2 years and a new mom so her emotions will be to protect and defend him , so I've got to work on this one with lots of attention to not putting it on him although all  of my friends want to hang him , they see how he is and how DD doesn't seem herself.  Now if quits her job due to his issues with is dad that his mother was a stay at home but had to go to work due to dad's job changes that he has always resented his dad for , now he is reliving this through DD , then she is in deep trouble , he will control her for sure . She has an excellent job with so much advancement to go at the age she is making a very nice salary but her told her she would end up in the red. Huh ? With what she makes, but then she has to give about all to him I think . So anyhow she is in mess as far as I can see. I do want to open the dialog but I"m pondering hard on doing it right . I think mother's day might be a good time for us to share things . I really want to arrive at a solution that helps as in the fall after lots of painfull months I was diagnosed with small nerve fiber neuropathy, that causes burning of my feet and legs daily. I'm not taking the pain meds as they leave me in a zombie state , so I'm doing all kinds of supplements all day to help but sometimes the pain is excruciating , sitting and laying down are the worst positions. I want to be able to bond , play and hold this new gs as much as I can because this might stay as it is or get worse to the point it spreads all over my body very quickly, I could be facing wheelchair , bedridden and also it can affect organs to be fatal . DD and SIL know about the condition but I don't' think they know how serious it can be . So I{'m very driven , doctors told me to avoid stress as it affects the nerves that are already inflamed. So I've got to get to a point that we Can work around the SIL for the family to unit in someway. So that is why I vent so here , as not to upset too many and I can get rid of the stress better. Thanks for letting me vent .

[pam1]

artlady, the point of therapy isn't to figure out what's wrong with other people, it's to help yourself.  I really wonder about this person you're seeing, she has no idea how and why SILs family affected him. 

On paper, I had a hard childhood, mother terminally ill for most of it, parents divorced, two stepparents etc.  My MIL desperately wants to use (not saying you're doing this, just an example) my mothers illness and subsequent death as a reason why I don't get along with her.  She has even since I don't have a mother, I don't know family love.  And on and on and on.  This is her excuse for not getting along with me, I had a hard childhood and I'm just angry at everyone and don't know what family is.  I'm getting this vibe from you about your SIL too.  There is absolutely no way you or a therapist actually knows what his family's legacy left on him and to even go there suggests to me a large part of why he would pull back, like a previous poster said before, people's feelings aren't hidden.  Your point of view is probably very clear to him and I can't imagine anyone being comfortable around another person who tries to get this intimate and psycho-analyze them.

I will say my MIL has *no* idea my mothers legacy left me - which is live each day as if it's your last, live and let live.   That is why I don't want to be around her, she's miserable and insufferable.  The moment she walks into a room you can literally feel the joy and life sucked out of it.  She is a gossipy know it all who thinks she's got the corner on psycho-analyzing people and makes each situation awkward.  With my view on life, live as each day is your last, my last day would never want to be spent with her.  She can say all she wants I don't know family love, have a ton of psychologists that claim the effects of divorce on children are long lasting and scar them for life etc etc.  She can do all that to her hearts content -- just not around me or mine.

DH didn't know what to do at first when she started all this, he was terribly embarrassed and ashamed.  Everyone around her saw that she was trying to use my past to claim why we don't get along, instead of just trying to accept me.  Everyone knew what she was doing but her.  After a couple years DH had enough and it was his choice to stop being around her.  Despite her expert claims of my past being the problem, DH chose to stop being around that. 

What I'm trying to say in all this, artlady, is that I see a lot of people trying desperately to give you some good advice and for whatever reason it's wrong, this psychologist keeps coming back (and doubt the person ever even met your SIL) and it sounds almost exactly what my MIL did to a T.  I am telling you this because there is a chance you can take a turn off this road.  This road will lead you to nowhere or even more pain when you have the choice to get off of it.  It's not going to be SILs childhood that is paining you, it's not his childhood now that is paining you.  It's something else and only you can find it within yourself. 

[artlady]

Oh Pam1, I"m so sorry if I stepped on toes about past , I would never do that and we never ever discuss past, I'm only stating things that DD says in general talks that come out that he says about his past that hurt him etc etc. Oh no I'm not going there with him , non would i use it against him to say that is why he did a 180, I just also know as he doesn't hide it well the dislike he has for his dad, stepmom and brother. I also had a past that carried into adulthood. I can't say it enough as we never ever make him uncomfortable , say rude things to him, push his buttons, or be any different to him , we act the very same all the time as we did before the weddding when he enjoyed being with us , we now might be a little cautious in some of our funny cut up things or sayings not to be over the top to make him feel left out since he is not joining in the fun anymore . I think the counselor ( no she has never met him ) is trying to piece together all the parts as best she can with the past, and now , to help us help ourselves through it all and we know it is us that has to carry the hurt of it all so we need options on how we do this and maintain our sanity. We would love nothing more than to hug him , tell him we love him but we never intended to intrude to make him feel we wanted to take anyones' place . Emotionally conversations are never something done with him or in a family setting , although DD, DH and other family members have always been able to sit , talk it out, discuss it etc. We won't ever do that with him as we know he is not the kind and would be highly uncomfortable . So sorry I didn't' mean to upset anyone ,I can't change his past, I accept it and willing to work along with it or whatever for things to get better for all . WE are here for him, would love for him to accept this family as he did before . Like our close friends and family have said , he couldn't ask for a better MIL and FIL , family to become a part of that is so giving , understanding and full of love for everyone , as we all know his family , we are from the same town and we are so exactly opposite. Again I am sorry for toe stepping and your family growing up, mine was not the same but many similar things .

[pam1]

artlady, I'm not upset, just trying to warn you.

Your DD should not be speaking about his personal information with you, that is a betrayal of his confidence in her.  It is his to share, no one elses.  Unless he gave her permission to speak of this she has absolutely no right to talk about it.  You are also hearing it now second hand, the counselor third hand.  Like the game of telephone but the only difference is that you are all using someone's private, intimate details of his past and sharing it with a stranger who has no business in trying to diagnose him or giving an expert opinion on him, she's never even met him!

Your SIL (or anyone) for that matter doesn't have to hear you say these things to know what is going on, we are all finely tuned into each other.  Just as you pick up on his reluctance to be around you, he is picking this up from you.

For me, I probably couldn't be in the same room again as my husband and his mother were they to discuss my private information.  It would feel like betrayal and I would not be comfortable. 

My thoughts are if you want this to get better the focus should be taken off of SIL, this is not his problem.  You can only change you, you can't change someone else and you can't change their past (if indeed that is part of the problem, which I doubt it is.) 

What can you do to switch the focus back on you and what can you do to make this better?  Concentrating on SILs past, how they both are faring with the new baby, the parenting decisions they make, the household decisions they make etc is not any of your issues, yet you are concentrating on them heavily.  Why is that?  Please, really take a look at why you're concentrating so hard on this little family, which, by all accounts are a pretty successful little family in the making.  Why are they the subject of such an intense focus from you? 

[artlady]

Pam -I think I"m so focused as a new gm and fairly new MIL that prior to the wedding had so much hope for the future , saw a wonderful SIL and thought things would be that way from then on , to be blown completely out of the water is with his new behavior is just so hard to understand. DD isn't really going into things about his past only in just chatting over other things as it might relate to something she feels , as how sorry she feels for him that his dad does him the way he does, etc etc , so it is not that we sit together and pick apart his past , I"m sure there are lots of things she doesn't tell me , we both know that is not a good thing to do . Again, he knows nothing about how hurt we are , how he makes us feel or that we think he doesn't like us. WE don't give him any way to see that , we hide our feelings all the way as not to cause any friction from our side. We take his behavior like it is and don't allow our emotions to show. WE have done good with it for 2 years now. I give him hugs when I see him , when i leave and so does DH. I was raised to treat others with respect, be kind and even if you didn't know them or like them you are never rude to anyone , so I always do that and have learned it as a life style. We are working on us but we don't' know what else we can do as we seem to have tried it all , except call him on the carpet as some might do, we could never do that as we would never hurt his feelings we just are not geared like that. I"m to the point I think it best we just back out of their lives for awhile , let them find their way and then maybe down the road they will realize they need us as the hurt is so bad for us  right now , we need to heal from not being wanted or allowed to bond with new GS ( except DD wants us there). So we are in-between a rock and a hard place .

[pam1]

artlady, I can't see what you could possibly call him on the carpet for and/or why.  You and he do not get along, that is the bare bones of the situation.  He is an adult and can choose whom he likes or dislikes.  You're still invited into his home, he is not actively doing anything to you, he just doesn't feel the way you want him to feel.  Act the way you want him to act.

Do you see a theme here?  These are your expectations of him, your expectations that aren't being met, your expectations that are causing you to hurt.  It's not your SIL.

[artlady]

Hmmmmmmmm  . He doesn't invite us to his home DD invites us and since baby we go when he is at work. You missed the things he has openly said to us and others? We do get along , I am not the one saying ugly things to him, ignoring him, being rude or not showing up with DD for family weddings, funerals etc. He was a totally different person for 3 years before they got married , now the 180 and we are dumbfounded , so all I"m trying to do is explain how it is now to before the wedding 2 years ago , we don't want him or expect him to love or like us , fall our feet but I just have a had time with that fact he is no longer accepting us as her parents as he did prior and if just for the brief times he is ever around us now could treat us with a little respect as we do him as her DH. We don't live that close that we are in his way all the time and we will never do that . I am a strong believer that everyone can be civil to each other, get along for short times . I don't think I"m wrong to want the same treatment that we give to him for him to give back to us . "Do unto others as you would have them do to you" WE treat him well but don't' get that back . Anyone that is around and observes the situation has never seen us treat him any differently than we did 5 years ago . I"m not the only one in the family that has the same feelings as he has treated us all from my brothers to cousins, dh and close friends  with the same rudeness since the wedding so explain that one to me .

[Silver Spring]

I think there are MILs and parents on this board who aren't even allowed in their child's home with the SO is not present. DD invites you to her home while he is at work. You are spending time with her and the baby. It sounds to me like he is actually accepting of your relationship with her.

In addition, it doesn't sound like you really do like him all that much as things stand now. There have been implications of emotional abuse, control and other things, yet, it seems like what you really want deep down is for him to behave differently toward you than he is currently.  If it is his rudeness, it should be a relief that DD invites you when he's not around. Things are simpler that way for you and him.  She is planning things in a way so that he is of no interference to you.

You don't have to be the only one in the family to have a similar perspective, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. The therapist you describe can not be ascribing to him all of these problems and the reasons for such without actually having met him.

Your expectations have a lot to do with this, you expected something different than what currently is. For what it's worth, your SIL does seem civil, if aloof.

[artlady]

Oh she keeps wondering when i"m coming to spend the night as I use to do that after they got married before the baby. He has come home for lunch while i 'm there , sometimes walks in right by me , talks to her , baby never ever acknowledges I'm there , converses with me etc or the next time might speak , become engaged in whatever we are talking about so you never know what or how he will react, can be hot and cold . I want more than anything to just hug him so hard, tell him we love him and let him know he has a family that will be here for him forever, knowing he lost his mom 12 years ago , I know the feeling and I never want to be his mom but if I can feel in a little gap I"m more than willing to do so . I don't' dislike him , I'm just hurt by his behavior and can't seem to find how to handle it in my own heart. I wouldn't say he is civil, he has shown that temper , but very early posts give more of the problems . I don't expect him to be anything other than what he wants to be , all we want is to be respected as her dd's parents/ family , we will always be nice to him as we have been regardless of how uncomfortable he makes us and others feel. I guess I didn't know that after a wedding someone could change their colors like he has to be so exactly opposite . So shocked is what I should say . 

[Ruth]

I think a lot of us here are fascinated by this situation, I guess we are all finding certain parts of it that relate to our own problems and issues.  I appreciated your input, Pam, and could find some  things in there that spoke to me.  I'm getting more and more skeptical and repulsed with the whole psychiatric movement myself, there's all too much analysis and diagnosing going on IMO, and I don't think its creating a more healthy, productive, well balanced people, but it seems to me its only promoting more self centeredness, division, convoluted thinking, labeling, and clinical excuses for bad behavior.  sorry, this is just my thoughts on it all.  It seems to me that the resilience of our own natures and our potential for overcoming obstacles is grossly undervalued.   Human nature and personality is just by its very nature complex, private, and subject to change.  What's going on inside our head today can drastically change a year down the road.

I do understand Artlady's more intimate sharing with DD.  I think mother/daughters just do this more than sons and fathers.  Its just part of who we are, but we would be wise to learn when to draw boundaries.  I was a few years ago furious with DH when I learned he had discussed our personal life with his DM.  It created a rift between MIL and I that did not heal.  But in all honesty I never told him about the many times when upset I would spill my guts to my sisters.  Shame on me.  I have also worn a cauliflower ear since my DD's troubled marriage and subsequent divorce.  Trust me I did not want that role, but its hard to tell your child you'd rather not be involved, when they are troubled and need to talk.  But unlike my MIL, I always knew that there are two sides to every conflict.

I think possibly counseling might be better spent, if at all, Artlady, in your coming to terms with DD having a very separate life of her own, and as she is your only child, in your working through a little separation grief and being able to detach more.  I know you have step a/c, but this is a very special one close to your heart.  I expect you expected the new g/c to flow into that very prized relationship but it has jolted you badly to find yourself locked out in many ways.  This would be a big grief to handle and work through.  I think that too much energy is being wasted on analysis, connecting this to his childhood, etc.  I wish you could just detach from it and say, set it all on a shelf for six months or so, just lay low and think that it may smooth out, as things often do.  You might look back on this a year down the road, and find it was actually totally different that you thought.

[artlady]

Ruth , Thanks and that is exactly what I've said I think that both Dh and myself need to step back, stay away and let things heal for us , give them the newness of the baby for a while . Others say on posts and friends , oh no you can't do that , that gs needs you , your dd needs you .We have always shared a closeness but once she left for college , was adjusting so well , I was happy and never really had that empty nest feeling as long as I knew she was OK and happy in whatever she was doing . I want her to spread her wings , be happy , have  children  and a loving husband. I"m very proud of the young woman she has become .  DH and I have never been to counseling before ,so that only makes 3 visits in 12 weeks(DH missed last one due to work plus he says he is done ), I" know we have to work thru it all on our own and we will. I find myself doing better than something like trying to plan mother's day with DD gets those emotions out of whack again , so i realize it might be one step forward and two back but I know that letting it go , getting back to "us" , exercising , painting and enjoying the things I've not done in the last 12 weeks i will be fine. Life will go on and there is always a silver lining somewhere just don't' know when it will shine . I'm glad school will be out soon as I can take a few trips , really get things done here and paint some paintings i need to do. Thanks

[Ruth]

I feel a close kinship to you, Artlady. You are tired I believe.  You have been on overdrive for more than 2 yrs, as I'm sure when the wedding was being planned it was hugely absorbing, then the day you learned she was pregnant, and then the birth, and it has been so absorbing and you made a full investment of yourself into all of it, that it has worn the life out of you.  I've been in your shoes, more times than I can tell you with my DS, and I know how it feels when it becomes bigger than you are, and you can't  think of nothing else, it just consumes and consumes.  You get vast stores of energy during those times, but it is energy borrowed from tomorrow and it comes at a high cost.  I always know this precipitates me into depression.     You are a special person, you need to trust in all that you taught and instilled in your DD, and soothe yourself that it will be OK.  You can let go.  It is obvious that she loves you dearly.  There are ties that bind mother/daughter that are stronger than life itself.  I work on timing myself out when that overdrive thinking takes over.  I also have to talk it out, and I've found this site to be a safe and healing place to do that. Sometimes just a line or two from somebody who really connects with me, and I sense care and compassion, can get me lose from focusing on it.   Don't make yourself sick over this.  Its so easy to do.  Email me if you need to , any time.  I live near you and will pitch in and help you if need be.  This is going to smooth out in time.  Go outside and enjoy the garden.  Take some little day trips with DH, and be gentle with yourself.  Some days I tell myself, today I will watch old movies, wear my nightgown all day, eat chocolate, keep my bed made down.  All the things I need to help me get back on my feet.  I am no good to anybody when I'm exhausted emotionally.  You are loved, remember that.

[artlady]

Wow Ruth I could feel your warmth and understanding , yes indeed I'm tired plus the constant pain from this darn neuropathy drives me crazy and is depressing within itself. I did get busy after your post walked around the neighborhood , met a new neighbor, put fertilizer on my azaleas and have learned a lot from Lancaster Lady on my new way to plant tomatoes. She knew about it and shared her idea. So now tomorrow I'm going to Lowe's and another feed store after the gym to get my veggie garden going all in potting soil bags. I've also thought if my DD wants me to come for Mother's Day I'll do that and not allow him to keep me from seeing daughter and gs , it might kill me but I'll do as my sweet mom did , just smile, be gracious and keep on going as all is fine . I will email. Thanks and so many hugs

[artlady]

Now waking up this morning , I"m thinking maybe I should plan on going to DD's for Mother's Day, I'm making her one of those Moby Wraps for Mother's day, so she can have hands free to go shopping, cook or whatever with little sweet GS right next to her chest. I'm even making it in SIL's college colors , as men use these also. So might be fun to take it vs. mail it ( as not sure if she will come here ) and practice putting it on , then go for an outing with it maybe , if he does OK with it and she likes it  . I know folks on here say back up and out , while others say don't give up time with DD and Gs because of SIL. This is her first of many and it should be special .I can take his rudeness , I've been doing it for 2 years now so I've got to get on my big girl pants again to keep the relationship close between DD and Gs. Now any thoughts on if this is good or bad idea. Now if she wants me to spend the night as she has asked I"m not so sure about all that as she now goes to bed when Gs goes which is 7:30 and I know i can't stay up alone with SIL, so I might just go for day as I've been doing .  I love my DD and Gs so their happiness is my up most focus. thanks