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more of my side....

Started by bettylou, April 16, 2010, 10:43:04 PM

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Postscript

Totally agree with your assessment Onlooker, and yeah I couldn't work out how else to put it :(

cremebrulee

yanno, after reading all these posts, it gave me an idea....Betty, I backed off completely for 3 years, or maybe 2 1/2 years, I don't remember, then, my son and I started talking...he would call every Sat. on his way to work, just as he had in the past...but I had no contact with DIL for another year or year an a half...when son and I talked, we never mentioned the situation...and we started getting closer...he seemed he looked forward to our chats and he became more at ease, offering more to the conversation, sharing with me stories about GD and DIL...as time went on, to be honest, my heart starting aching...now, in all this time, the hurt and anger started drifting away, along with the blame...again, I started thinking about what some of the DIL's were trying to tell me in the other sites...but then, I couldn't even consider that I might have done something wrong, or, that maybe, my DIL wasn't doing things to try and hurt me, she was reacting to my negative energy...and I'm sure all you gals know, when your going thru this with someone who you feel hates you and doesn't want to be around you, you become nervous, anxious, wanting only to get along...that's all you want...and you fumble, studder, etc.  So, long story short, when I finally got enough courage to write my DIL a second letter, (the first was years ago, and in that letter I was aloof, making demands, and pointing fingers at her) I wrote her how I felt...again, this was 12 years later...time had matured both of us, distance, I believe made us both think...about the whole situation a little more unbiased...so, what I'm thinking is Betty, it is difficult to estrange yourself from the situation, son and DIL...however, if your strong, during that time, you could read books on this issue, like I did...you could self examine...I kept trying to figure out what I did wrong...or what I did that offended her, hurt her...and started realizing, and allowing thoughts to enter my mind, that maybe I did unknowing say or do things that were not meant to hurt her, but she was hurt. 

So, when she called, and believe me, I never ever thought she would...I really believed nothing would ever change, and I would live with this the rest of my life, and had resolved myself to that. 

However, time did mature us both, and I believe we both evaluated the whole situation, and we were both ready to listen to each other.  I know my DIL told my son, that she was pleased with the honesty during that first conversation...and believe me, I was scared...but as we started to talk, and exchange stories...I became more confident.  It was amazing how perceptions of two different people, see things so differently...

She actually said to me, that she was going to try to change some things, and I told her, "no, please don't..now that I know this is who you are, and what your personal mannerisums are, I won't take offense to what you do any longer...I told her, that whole time, I thought you were doing these things to hurt me, to let me know I wasn't welcome in your life".  And it was her and me...she told me, that they went to counselling b/c of me, and I was devestated...really  devestated...she said, it was b/c my son, would take my side, when they argued about me...and she felt he was siding with me and not her, when all the time, he was defending both of us to each other...I told her, I felt the same way...like he was being disloyal to me, and accepting her behavior as normal...and it was normal...to her, it's who she was and is..

Betty, give yourself some space, like the others have suggested, I believe at this point, it's a good idea...don't cut them off completely like I did...that was next to unbearable for me...however, back off, give them space...and when they do call...don't call back right away...talk to them, as if nothing happened...if you can....but let them make the first move...why?  Because it makes them feel like they're not being made to, or expected to, and it makes things much more comfortable...they might see the change and become curious...then, maybe when the time is right, you will be able to discuss all of this with her...tell her your feelings were hurt, and if you feel that way, then she must feel that way to.  Explain to her that this is hurting everyone, and that is the last thing you wanted to happen...tell  her sincerely that you don't hate her or never did, and that you feel you both might have gotten off to a bad start b/c things happened, you didn't talk them out, and things started to escalate until pretty soon, both of you were taking each others reactions as a personal attack against each other. 

Just my suggestions...but I found out, when I was sincere, we were both ready to listen...however, these things take time...do dilagence and a willingness to let go of past actions and forgive...and I know from my heart of hearts...that all I wanted was to forgive her and to have her forgive me...that I believe is what breaks us..is the fact that there is animosity between us...no one wants that, we all want to be liked, especially by our son's wives...we don't want to really hate them or dislike them...but we're angry b/c the unknown is constantly knawing at us and we keep asking ourselves why, why, what did I do?  That little voice inside us, can surely be a constant nudge...and it follows you around like a dark cloud all the time...

It's not easy to say these things to yourself when you feel you did nothing wrong...and I honestly felt I hadn't done a thing...that she hated me, and actually believed she invented all this stuff to get me out of they're lives, and she felt the same way about me, which then raises cross hairs in a woman, and now we're ready to fight...saying "Bring it on" and nothing but nothing ever gets accomplished that way...not to mention you can cut the tension with a knife...when your together...

I don't know if this helps or not...I hope so Betty.

MLW07

April 17, 2010, 09:04:00 AM #17 Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 09:09:47 AM by MLW07
Quote from: bettylou on April 16, 2010, 10:43:04 PM
I asked daughter in law if she would like to come to the Coach store with my daughter and I.  I would treat each of us to a bag and then lunch.  I offered to drive but daughter in law said it would not work she would meet us there.  She was half an hour late, and talked on the phone the entire time.  She had no interest in talking to either one of us.  When she did finally get off the phone and chose the biggest most expensive bag  to the register she told my daughter how she never gets out and is always stuck at home with my grandson because she can never get a babysitter.  She knew that was a sensitive topic with my daughter and she had to go there.  She did tell us how her mother was watching him that day and taking him to the zoo for the first time.  She loves to tell us what her family is doing with him.  She always has a huge smirk when she tells us he is with her mother doing all kinds of fun things.  We felt really low because of her.  My daughter did ask when she might be able to come over and hang out with her and son and baby and daughter in law rolled her eyes and said "we'll have to see about that one!"  It was as if my daughter had asked her to put her through college or something. She then told me she was not going to lunch with us because she was driving across town to get her nails done "oh well maybe next time."
I do not know why she is so mean to my daughter!  Once we asked her and son to come see daughter get an award from the group she belongs to for the gifted, daughter in law said out loud, "if she is so gifted whey is not enrolled at X school for the gifted in our town"  I was shocked but explained to her that it was too much money for us and she laughed and said "if she was truely gifted and talented she could go there for free."  This is what we deal with everytime we see her.  She never brings grandson and she spends the time slamming me and my daughter and then has my son call us to complain about our "rudeness"  or things that hurt her.  When I once asked son if he thought all thienegative towards daughter would damage her, he told his wife.  She told him I was damagaing everyone in my life and how dare I accuse them of something like that.  I must be so manipulative and cruel.
Why does she hate my daughter so much?

She sounds like a spoiled brat and needs to have the rudeness knocked out of her.  I'm sorry she did this; I can't imagine ever being that rude.

Hope

Quote from: bettylou on April 17, 2010, 12:58:20 AM
Ok gals, I will back off why not?  I have tried everything else and it got me nothing but scorn.  I will back off.  But I would still like to be here for friendship and advice and a place to complain.  I need that because I can not let myself complain to family or son
Absolutely, Bettylou.  We want you to come here and unload.  That's what we're here for - to support eachother.  We care about you and want to walk with you.  We are here for you - please keep on sharing. 
Lots of hugs, Hope

elsieshaye

Totally agree with what others have said that detachment is probably the best approach here.  And definitely agree with Creme that it may take several years of letting them be before you see results.  I know it hurts to think about not seeing them much, if at all, for a long time, but I really do think that's what it may take to heal the relationship between you and your DS's family. Like I said in another post, it took 3 years of distance between me and my parents, but those 3 years made the hugest difference imaginable, and we were able to be close again.   You've already got the beginnings of detachment skill in the way that you respond when your son complains about DIL.  Hang in there.
This too shall pass.  All is well.

cremebrulee

April 18, 2010, 02:06:05 PM #20 Last Edit: April 18, 2010, 02:07:46 PM by cremebrulee
Quotebettylou   
Why does she hate my daughter so much?



maybe she doesn't hate her as much as she is envious of her...?  Just a thought

luise.volta

And keep posting, Bettylou. Back off and practice some self-love and stay connected with us. Read other people's posts and give them a hand and let us know how you are doing. Sending love...
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

bettylou

Why would a grown woman with all the money she wants and the best of everything be jelous of my daughter?  Jelous enough to act out like that?  My daughter is a teen and she does not even drive a car.  What is the conflict?  She has told me repeatedly how my daughter is "loud, or pushy or rude or immature for her age, awkward, selfish, very needy, exagerates, acts up, childish etc."  She always finds a way to say something negative about her, its hurtful

cremebrulee

Quote from: bettylou on April 19, 2010, 05:37:52 AM
Why would a grown woman with all the money she wants and the best of everything be jelous of my daughter?  Jelous enough to act out like that?  My daughter is a teen and she does not even drive a car.  What is the conflict?  She has told me repeatedly how my daughter is "loud, or pushy or rude or immature for her age, awkward, selfish, very needy, exagerates, acts up, childish etc."  She always finds a way to say something negative about her, its hurtful

What awful things to say about her brother's sister?  Well, were your son and his sister close?  Perhaps your DIL, sees the enthusiasum your daughter has for her brother....I know when I was little and even older, I idolized my big brother...and he me...in grasping at straws here, I'm wondering if your DIL senses the closeness and is jealous of that?   Are your daughter and son close?

womenrule123

Hello there! It sounds like your dil is feeling jealous and feels she has no "value' within the family. Not to justify your dil's behavior but it's obvious she has her hackles up! I don't agree with dil using her child as her source of "power" and "control" over the situation but several individuals do it. I would suggest putting a stop to dil's insults towards you and your family. It's verbal and emotional abuse!! Where is your son in this matter??  Just wondering!!

cremebrulee

Quote from: Anna on April 19, 2010, 06:12:35 AM
Bettylou, I don't know why she may be jealous but my dil was too.  My son was close to his cousin, & his brother.  He hardly ever sees either one of them anymore.  My oldest son & niece wish it could be different.  My son was always like a big brother to my neice,  (she in an only child).  Dil met son when his cousin was 9 years old, & he suddenly stopped having much to do with her.  I think my dil was jealous of the closeness between the two, & wanted that for herself, & didn't want to share him with anyone.  Maybe because she'd never had that closeness in her life.  Is your dil close with her mom.  I don't mean just spending lots of time together, I mean really close. Some people spend lots of time together, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are close.

you could be right Anna, makes a lot of sense.

Onlooker

Quote from: bettylou on April 19, 2010, 05:37:52 AM
Why would a grown woman with all the money she wants and the best of everything be jelous of my daughter?  Jelous enough to act out like that?

I'm pausing here, because I'm wondering why you assume that the issue would have anything to do with money? The issue of money seems to come up a lot when you talk about your daughter in law - how much she spends, what she wears, what car she drives, your buying her expensive presents. You seem to resent what she has, but to try to please her by giving her more.

Relationship issues and jealousies aren't related to money, all that often. So I'm wondering why money keeps coming up.

Even in the case of the shower and her demanding expensive presents, I don't see that as being about _money_. I see it as being about her perceiving a lack of respect and regard, and incorrectly tying it to money. Money has a lot of symbolism, and I suspect that you and your DIL are interpreting those symbols very, very differently. A cigar is not just a cigar, money is not just money.

I'm wondering if there are any specific money conflicts? For example does your son ever help you out with money, and could your DIL blame that for the fact that she has to work at all? Or does he not help you out and do you resent that fact? Or do you frequently voice your opinions about your DIL and son's money decisions?

> Jelous enough to act out
> like that?  My daughter is a teen and she does not even drive a
> car. 

Again, I don't see the relevance of a car. We're back to money. Why does money keep entering the question?

I'm not trying to badger you, I'm trying to get at thoughts that you may not be entirely consciously aware of. Why would "jealous" automatically make you think of possessions and money?

> What is the conflict?  She has told me repeatedly how my
> daughter is "loud, or pushy or rude or immature for her age,
> awkward, selfish, very needy, exagerates, acts up, childish
> etc."  She always finds a way to say something negative about
> her, its hurtful

I'll present a tangle of facts: You love your daughter. You dislike and resent your DIL. Your son loves your daughter. Your DIL is supposed to be the most important woman in your son's life. You and your daughter are other important women in your son's life. Your daughter is very fond of your DIL's son and wants to spend time with him. Your DIL probably can't spend as much time with her son as she would like, if she has to work part time. You resent the fact that your DIL works only part time; if you your preference and she worked full time she'd have even less time with her son. Your daughter wants to spend time with your DIL's son, which would take away some of your DIL's time with him.

It seems to me that _of course_ your daughter is a major candidate for jealousy for your DIL. It may not be rational jealousy, and there may not be anything the least bit unusual about any of those facts above, but I think it's there anyway. Jealousy is never rational.

That doesn't mean that it's acceptable for your DIL to say what she says. But you can't control what she says; all you can do is get distance from her, for yourself and for your daughter.

An example: If a person says to you, "You're ugly!" you can react in many different ways.

1) You can walk up to them and demand to know, "Why would you say I'm ugly? Everyone agrees that I'm reasonably attractive. I go to the salon every two weeks to get my hair taken care of. I just got a consultation for my makeup. I've always been known to have good taste in clothes. I..."

In other words, you take in what they say and make yourself responsible for arguing against it, to change their mind.

2) Or you can go to your friends and say, "Why would she say I'm ugly? Don't you think she's wrong? Don't you think that I'm reasonably attractive? Wasn't it rude of her to say that? Do you think I'm ugly? Look at this picture of me that day, do I look ugly to you? Wasn't she rude? Isn't that rude, to say that?"

In this case, you take in what they say and put a lot of work into reassuring yourself that they're wrong.

3) Or you can look at them, blink, and walk away to try the bean dip, telling yourself, "They must be having a bad day."

In this case, you take in what they say, you consider whether you have any responsibility to take any action regarding it, you decide that you don't, and you let it go. This is the response that I recommend.

As an example of something that your DIL does (I assume that she doesn't make the "ugly!" remark) , it's wrong for your DIL to downgrade your daughter's school or gifted program in your daughter's presence.

However, let's look at that issue. Did your DIL attend a gifted program? Did she attend a good school? Have you indicated any lack of respect for your DIL academically? Have you ever made any comparison between your family's intelligence and academic achievement and that of your DIL and her family? Have you said anything disparaging about your DIL's school, even in a roundabout way? For example, if your DIL attended a state school, then any remark suggesting that state schools are inferior could be taken as a slam.

You dislike and resent your DIL, so it seems not impossible that you might have at least hinted along these lines. And, your DIL knows you dislike and resent her, so even if you honestly never, ever did such a thing, it's not impossible that she might have picked up something that wasn't there.

None of that changes the fact that your DIL shouldn't insult your daughter. But it's an example of what I mean by deciding whether you have any responsibility to take action. If you've ever disparaged your DIL's academic achievements, you can recognize how you did it and resolve to never, ever do so again. If you haven't, then all you can do is, again, distance yourself. You can't change her behavior. It doesn't matter if it's fair or right. You can spend a lifetime proving to yourself and others that she's wrong and unfair about something, but that won't change her behavior.

Similarly, consider whether you have any responsibility for guiding your daughter in her behavior. Does she repeatedly demand time with her nephew? She may need to just stop asking. Does she have an exaggerated hurt reaction when  DIL isn't nice to her? She may need to accept that DIL is not one of the people in her life who will show her support and love. That's sad, but it may just be the way it is.

Onlooker

bettylou

I assure the issues I have with my daughter have little if anything to do with their finances.  We do not help them pay for their lifestyle and they do not help us pay for ours.  I am a saver when it comes to money, I buy on discount and clip coupons so that I can afford to treat myself and those I love when I want to. 
  I do feel sad for my son that he works so much because he tells me how he does not get enough time with his son.  As far as my dil goes, she works partime while my husband does the lion's share of the work, I do feel sad about that.  I have not ever made my feelings known to them about this because it would do me or anyone else no good.  I simply feel bad that my son works so hard and so long eachday to finance cars and trips constantly.  He does not drive the fancy car and does not even like to fly.  If your son was working so hard to please someone else perhaps you would feel this way too. 
  When I said she has all the money and thing she wants and that my daughter does not even drive yet, I simply meant, why would an adult woman that is as free as a bird to do what she pleases when she pleases be jelous of a young girl, that has to go to school everyday and work on honors classes and is not spoiled with her own car?  That is what I was pondering.

luise.volta

You may well be looking for logic where there isn't any. Sad but true.
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

Pen

Betty, I agree with Luise. And I continue to believe, after reading many posts from DILs and MILs, that there are some people who have an agenda going in, and if they have their mind set against us DILs or MILs, they will look for and find any excuse to "get rid of us." Luckily there are many more instances of both sides trying to work it out, but some of us haven't been as fortunate.
Respect ... is appreciation of the separateness of the other person, of the ways in which he or she is unique.
-- Annie Gottlieb