Expectations

[Birdy]

For me, a simple thank-you while in the moment, or a phone call is enough.  I don't expect to be sent a written, personalized thank-you. 
Creme, I know you do.   

Anna:
Agreed.  Really how hard is it to say thank-you.   It is really only 2 little words.

I don't know what is wrong with people.

I work very hard, very hard at teaching my children good manners.

[Pen]

Yes, Anna, that kind of acknowledgement would be fine. I agree with you all that a simple 'thank you' can go a long way! BTW, I taught my kids to write thank you notes...to this day I encourage DDD to acknowledge presents in writing. Gratitude is a wonderful emotion, but it does need to be taught.

To address some earlier posts, I don't expect to be paid back for, or even thanked for: helping DIL out of a legal jam; DS's education and support (car, phone, tuition, clothes, rent) during that time; expensive gifts for bdays, graduations, weddings & Christmas; our share of wedding expenses, etc. I can totally understand Betty's point about DIL reaping the benefit of what Betty did to help her son - it's not that we want to dictate what car DIL can drive or what clothes she can wear now that DS is successful, it's that we don't understand how we can be treated so poorly after doing so much, often at great personal sacrifice. Yes, it was our choice, and no they don't have to care. But it would be nice to be acknowledged and treated nicely.

I admit I resent having lavish vacations and fancy material possessions thrown in my face, too, especially since they seem to come with "Why don't you buy a bigger house? How can you live here? Why don't you visit such and such a vacation spot like we did? Why do you drive 5 year old cars?" Well, because we spent the money on DS's education, maintainance, and their wedding. If Betty's DIL was nice to her, I doubt Betty would be here mentioning the clothes and the car.

Clover, regarding making myself happy by setting my rules at the holidays or whenever, there are other people involved, not just me. If I act like DIL's family and lay down my rules, DH and DDD will miss out on seeing their son and brother. If my actions cause a family rift how is that going to increase my happiness? We can't simply think of ourselves all the time. There are a lot of other factors. If everyone could be less selfish a lot of these problems would disappear, IMO.

And Clover, thanks for your kind tone and helpful suggestions. You are a treasure

[cremebrulee]

Me too Creme, we never sent notes (kinda wished we did), but we were taught to say Thank-you, or call.  My dil seems to have a sense of entitlement, like we are suppose to do for her, so maybe that's why she doesn't always say thank-you, she just expects us to do things for her.  I noticed too, that lately she says thank-you more often.  One thing she has also started doing is bringing me a coffee when she drops her kids off for the day.  I love that she does that.  Must make a mental note to tell her that.  I have said thank-you each time, but have never told her how much I like that she thinks of me.

wow, you are making progress....bringing you coffee is a very kind gesture...I'll share one thing of many things I've learned...count up the good things she does...it helps you forget the flaws and the things she doesn't do....

your last memories of someone are always how they treated you, or how they reacted...so, is she has started doing these things, that means Anna, she is slowly trying...like I said, ROME wasn't built in a day, baby steps and everytime she does something nice, cherish it...b/c she is going to make mistakes.

[1Glitterati]

Me too Creme, we never sent notes (kinda wished we did), but we were taught to say Thank-you, or call.  My dil seems to have a sense of entitlement, like we are suppose to do for her, so maybe that's why she doesn't always say thank-you, she just expects us to do things for her.  I noticed too, that lately she says thank-you more often.  One thing she has also started doing is bringing me a coffee when she drops her kids off for the day.  I love that she does that.  Must make a mental note to tell her that.  I have said thank-you each time, but have never told her how much I like that she thinks of me.

I think it's great that you like that she thinks of you!  I'm glad to hear she actually does some nice things after the whole pet thing.

[Hope]

Clover, for some reason my thoughts aren't getting through. I'm sorry if I haven't made myself clear. I hope you don't mind slogging through this again with me so I can be sure you understand. The "thank you" issue is not the important thing to me. Somewhere along the line you missed that DH and I had spent all day, on the hottest day of the year, helping DS & DIL move and clean. Her parents and siblings were not there, it was up to us to drive for two hours, work hard all day without being offered food or drink. We were not appreciated for our efforts, and in fact have been treated even more rudely by her since then. So why did we do it? Because we love them, they asked, we thought it would help show DIL that we accept her and want to be considered part of the family.

No, there's no law that says DIL needs to thank us. There's no law that says she has to like us. But it's polite to show appreciation (don't want a fruit basket, just a kind word - and lunch...a water bottle might be nice, LOL) when people who don't have to help you come and give up a day (well, two days actually because we were really sore the next day - we're old) to help you move. I don't expect anything from DIL, but I mention these things to point out how she feels about us. They are examples of her behavior.

Holidays - we've been parents, too, and totally understand about the Christmas morning - pj thing. DS & DIL don't have kids yet, so that's not the holiday issue we're dealing with. What happened with us is that DIL's family set the rules without any discussion or compromise with us. It's their way and that's that. Finally the SILs (our DS & his BIL) stepped up and complained that they should at least get every other Christmas with their FsOO. So now DILs family gets EOC plus a week every Christmas. We get EOC and no week. BTW, it's DS's only week off from work (he works for FIL.) They've pretty much sewn up his life. Yes, I understand they have the right to make their own choices, but it still hurts.

Other celebrations? They laid down the law regarding meal times and we always have to work around it. By the time DS & DIL get to us they're full and sleepy. If we don't agree with this we miss seeing DS, so we go along with whatever they want. We let them all run the show and try to fit ourselves in.

Does even a little part of you see that this behavior is rude, inconsiderate and unfair? Even if they all "have the right" to do it? I can understand DIL frustrations when I read their stories of unfair, abusive treatment from ILs and have expressed support. Can I get the same courtesy?

Adult children have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to their parents if they choose (and parents have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to adult children/il's) - but it doesn't make it a good choice or the right thing to do.  It certainly doesn't foster a healthy relationship.  And we ALL have a right to our own feelings and if we are disappointed, hurt or sad - well, that's an appropriate response if we are being ill-treated.  Shouldn't we all be working toward happy, healthy relationships - MIL/FIL/DIL/DS one and all?  Just giving in to one side all the time to keep the peace may be one way of handling a bad situation - but it doesn't make it a well rounded healthy relationship.  It's not really mil's against dil's - there are good and bad in both arenas. 
Btw, can anyone tell me a good way to ask dil/ds what their expectations are in our relationship?  Is a letter best, in person, over the phone, email............and the wording?  Thanks for any help you can give me.
Hugs to all........Hope

[Pen]

I want to know too! I'm afraid to say anything or write anything for fear of upsetting a very wobbly boat.

[MLW07]

Clover, for some reason my thoughts aren't getting through. I'm sorry if I haven't made myself clear. I hope you don't mind slogging through this again with me so I can be sure you understand. The "thank you" issue is not the important thing to me. Somewhere along the line you missed that DH and I had spent all day, on the hottest day of the year, helping DS & DIL move and clean. Her parents and siblings were not there, it was up to us to drive for two hours, work hard all day without being offered food or drink. We were not appreciated for our efforts, and in fact have been treated even more rudely by her since then. So why did we do it? Because we love them, they asked, we thought it would help show DIL that we accept her and want to be considered part of the family.

No, there's no law that says DIL needs to thank us. There's no law that says she has to like us. But it's polite to show appreciation (don't want a fruit basket, just a kind word - and lunch...a water bottle might be nice, LOL) when people who don't have to help you come and give up a day (well, two days actually because we were really sore the next day - we're old) to help you move. I don't expect anything from DIL, but I mention these things to point out how she feels about us. They are examples of her behavior.

Holidays - we've been parents, too, and totally understand about the Christmas morning - pj thing. DS & DIL don't have kids yet, so that's not the holiday issue we're dealing with. What happened with us is that DIL's family set the rules without any discussion or compromise with us. It's their way and that's that. Finally the SILs (our DS & his BIL) stepped up and complained that they should at least get every other Christmas with their FsOO. So now DILs family gets EOC plus a week every Christmas. We get EOC and no week. BTW, it's DS's only week off from work (he works for FIL.) They've pretty much sewn up his life. Yes, I understand they have the right to make their own choices, but it still hurts.

Other celebrations? They laid down the law regarding meal times and we always have to work around it. By the time DS & DIL get to us they're full and sleepy. If we don't agree with this we miss seeing DS, so we go along with whatever they want. We let them all run the show and try to fit ourselves in.

Does even a little part of you see that this behavior is rude, inconsiderate and unfair? Even if they all "have the right" to do it? I can understand DIL frustrations when I read their stories of unfair, abusive treatment from ILs and have expressed support. Can I get the same courtesy?

Adult children have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to their parents if they choose (and parents have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to adult children/il's) - but it doesn't make it a good choice or the right thing to do.  It certainly doesn't foster a healthy relationship.  And we ALL have a right to our own feelings and if we are disappointed, hurt or sad - well, that's an appropriate response if we are being ill-treated.  Shouldn't we all be working toward happy, healthy relationships - MIL/FIL/DIL/DS one and all?  Just giving in to one side all the time to keep the peace may be one way of handling a bad situation - but it doesn't make it a well rounded healthy relationship.  It's not really mil's against dil's - there are good and bad in both arenas. 
Btw, can anyone tell me a good way to ask dil/ds what their expectations are in our relationship?  Is a letter best, in person, over the phone, email............and the wording?  Thanks for any help you can give me.
Hugs to all........Hope

Word to the wise...never put anything in writing.  It can come back to bite you in the tush; it did me.  My MIL decided to let her 18 year old niece and nephew forward the email I sent to her to the whole entire family.  Needless to say it didn't go well; the two 18 year old were so disrespectful to me (I am 12 years their elder and it was none of their business).  Written communication is bad as you cannot tell the tone.  In person is always the best.  I wouldn't directly ask what their expectations are.  I would ask how can we improve our relationship.

[Pen]

Thank you, MLW -  good point. I never would have thought of that consequence, but now that you mention it I'm afraid that what I write here might be discovered by someone 

[Hope]

Thanks, MLW.  Very wise advise.  Now to get the confidence and courage I need to execute a conversation.  I'm a real chicken when it comes to confrontation.......that's probably why I'm in this situation.  I realize that it shouldn't be a confrontation, but it could turn into one by accident.  I have a way of wording things in such a way that sensitive people can take me wrong.  Oh, boy.  Hugs, Hope

[1Glitterati]

Adult children have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to their parents if they choose (and parents have the freedom to be selfish and disrespectful to adult children/il's) - but it doesn't make it a good choice or the right thing to do.  It certainly doesn't foster a healthy relationship.  And we ALL have a right to our own feelings and if we are disappointed, hurt or sad - well, that's an appropriate response if we are being ill-treated.  Shouldn't we all be working toward happy, healthy relationships - MIL/FIL/DIL/DS one and all?  Just giving in to one side all the time to keep the peace may be one way of handling a bad situation - but it doesn't make it a well rounded healthy relationship.  It's not really mil's against dil's - there are good and bad in both arenas. 
Btw, can anyone tell me a good way to ask dil/ds what their expectations are in our relationship?  Is a letter best, in person, over the phone, email............and the wording?  Thanks for any help you can give me.
Hugs to all........Hope

I don't know how to tell you the best way to ask about expectations.  Most of the time those conversations don't happen until something that comes up where someones feelings get bruised.

As to working toward the healthy, happy relationships thing.  Both people in the relationship have to want the relationship.  I don't want a relationship with my inlaws--at least I haven't gotten back to that point.  And, I don't know if I ever will.

Dh is rebuilding his relationship with them, and they do see the kids.  I'll be perfectly honest with you.  Sometimes watching those things happen is very hard and makes me very angry and it's very hard not to lash out.  I don't understand how DH and is parents can just sweep stuff under the rug and pretend it never happened.  I'm not talking about apologizing and moving on, I'm talking about pretending it never happened so therefore there is no problem.  I DON'T understand him letting them do that to him.  And, NO...I would not allow my parents to do that.  If the roles in our situation were reversed and my parents were the offenders...I would not let them back into my life until they were actually sorry for what they did and apologized.

I know my mil wants things the way they used to be.  She and fil refuse to do the thing that needs to be done---be sorry and give a heartfelt apology.  So...they get to see their son and they spend some time with our kids.  I'm out.  I don't visit them.  I don't call them.  I did do this Xmas at their house w/dh and the kids after we all took a 2 year holiday hiatus...but I'll never go back again.

So...I've rambled...but I guess I was trying to say that I guess sometimes we can't fix things because people don't want to fix things.

[Hope]

Thanks, Glitter.  It seems almost every opportunity we have to see or talk to dil (very seldom indeed) could end up in a situation where feelings are bruised.  There are never angry words said - just alienation from us b/c something is perceived as hurtful.  Such as the couples baby shower we are having for ds/dil (dil suggested the shower be for couples).  She was hurt (I'm guessing since she doesn't talk about her feelings to us) that we didn't ask her to join us in the planning until she mentioned something to my od about wanting to help.  Even though we immediately tried to get ds/dil to come to our first planning meeting - gave them a couple dates, she said she wasn't available and told us a few different times to go ahead without her.  Time was running out, so we had a meeting to at least plan the invitations so they wouldn't be sent late.  We will be having other meetings to discuss food/activities, etc.  The day of the meeting ds told my dh that he wouldn't come to the meeting either out of respect for his dw b/c "we were planning behind her back".  WHAT??  We are all so confused.  Is this a good opportunity to bring up expectations?  I agree that both parties have to want the relationship to make it happy and healthy.  I would hope that out of respect for your spouse (not you personally, but in general), you would want to have a positive relationship with his/her family unless it isn't possible due to an abusive situation.
Btw, I'm sorry to hear that you are having mil problems.  Whatever happened must have been extreme.  I know there are difficult mil's out there and we can sympathize with you because we are dealing with the same sort of stuff from the other direction.  Have you shared any specifics on the situations you are dealing with that are causing you so much pain?  If so, which thread are they on?
Hugs coming your way, Hope

[1Glitterati]

Such as the couples baby shower we are having for ds/dil (dil suggested the shower be for couples).  She was hurt (I'm guessing since she doesn't talk about her feelings to us) that we didn't ask her to join us in the planning until she mentioned something to my od about wanting to help.

Ok...maybe my mama raised me too old school, but I've never heard of helping to plan your own baby shower.  Am I hopelessly outdated to think that's tacky?

Even though we immediately tried to get ds/dil to come to our first planning meeting - gave them a couple dates, she said she wasn't available and told us a few different times to go ahead without her.  Time was running out, so we had a meeting to at least plan the invitations so they wouldn't be sent late.  We will be having other meetings to discuss food/activities, etc.  The day of the meeting ds told my dh that he wouldn't come to the meeting either out of respect for his dw b/c "we were planning behind her back".

Again...I don't get it...you don't plan your own baby shower...just like you don't plan your own wedding shower.  I'm guessing things would have been even worse if someone (not yall, of course!) had pointed this out to her?  I might sound a bit sexist here...but I wouldn't have expected a guy to know that...it just isn't usually a part of stuff they learn.  My own dh would have been in his own personal hell if he'd had to attend a baby shower.

Btw, I'm sorry to hear that you are having mil problems.  Whatever happened must have been extreme.  I know there are difficult mil's out there and we can sympathize with you because we are dealing with the same sort of stuff from the other direction.  Have you shared any specifics on the situations you are dealing with that are causing you so much pain?  If so, which thread are they on?
Hugs coming your way, Hope

Thanks...that's nice to hear.  I did post about it when I was here before...my name was Glitterati, not 1Glitterati.  We hired a contractor who was a friend of the ils to build our home.  He turned out to be a crook who ended up costing us hundreds (yes, HUNDREDS) of thousands of dollars.  We fired him.  Inlaws supported contractor friend and not us.  They went so far as to let the guy live on their property while he restored a house for them.  Dh and I now have a mortgage that is 40% of our NET monthly salary because of this dude.  In the end...he really ended up defrauding the ils too...but for nearly 3 years they chose him over us--To the point that they told us we were hurting him financially and we were acting badly by firing him!  They can't seem to understand why I can't get past it.


they've said they can't change the past and we can only move forward.  Both of those are true.  Without them realizing they did something wrong and being sorry...I'm just done.  Believe it or not, I've come a long way.  I don't hate them anymore.  I don't just wish they'd drop dead anymore.  I just feel lots of indifference and some scorn.

Oh...and all of this happened after we'd had what I thought was a good relationship for about 17 years.  I truly loved my mil.  I would call her just to talk.  Prior to my having kids, we'd go out to dinner together and things like that.  Having loved them in the first place is probably why I hated them so much when all the bad happened.  Because it hurt so much.

ETA...I used to like my fil, too, as much as one could prior to all this.  He's a very patriarchal guy and a huge control freak.  I was the only person who ever stood up to him.  Everyone, including my dh felt he was a man to be deferred to even at other people's expense.  Glitterati didn't play that.  Fil (prior to the blow up) had an understanding w/each other.

[bettylou]

What I wanted and what I expected are two different things.  I wanted a close bond and a friendship and another daughter I guess.  When that was clearly not going to happen I still expected to be treated like a human being, meaning treated with respect because I am a person, I am the person that raised the man she married, the person that paid for some of their wedding costs, the one who watches their dog when they go away, and cleans up at their parties and brings the food when I am asked.  I just expected to be treated fairly, not equal to her mother, I know that is asking too much but treated like a grandma instead of a monster.  I expected my daughter who was always so close with her brother to have a small place in their life not every weekend not even once a month but a visit alone with her or phone call every three months would be great.  Or a birthday card like they used to.

[Hope]

Hey - wouldn't that be great if Glitter could be Bettylou's dil?  Bettylou could take Glitter to lunch and buy her the Coach bag of her choice and her dd could have a good time with Glitter and she could probably visit occasionally and even hold the precious little baby.  Maybe even play some board games or watch a movie. 
I try not to have expectations, so I tell myself, "don't expect calls, don't expect to be treated like dil's parents, don't expect ds/dil to hang out with dd's, don't expect answers to my messages, don't expect visits, don't expect invitations, don't expect any initiatives on their part", but it is an inner battle b/c we naturally WANT to see our children or hear from them occasionally.  I really appreciate that our dd's stay in touch.  Thank you, Lord!  And to think some countries put such high importance on sons - and daughters are a curse!  I know not all sons treat their parents like this and not all sons have dil's that try to pull them away from their families.  We're just the lucky ones.
Hugs, Hope

[Pen]

But Hope, I wanted the Coach bag     Oh right, I'm too old to be Betty's DIL 

I tell myself the same things, Hope, and have the same inner battle. Well put.

Maybe in the countries that favor boys the MILs rule the clan and the poor DILs don't stand a chance until they become a MIL. Of course it only works if they have a son...I wonder what happens to the poor moms of daughters in that case?