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It goes on and on....

Started by cremebrulee, March 07, 2010, 07:39:22 AM

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luise.volta

Oh, man...I'd forgotten about "The Look!" Talk about Fast Freeze!!!!
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

cremebrulee

Quote from: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 02:00:33 PM
We live in such a shifting culture. I, of course, was born in the 1920s and that goes "way" back. We, as children didn't have a sense of entitlement. It wasn't culturally appropriate to give us that image of ourselves...we had to earn it. Now, it's a given except in poverty and abuse dominated circumstances; that's the other end of the pendulum swing, of course.

I don't know how you brought up your son. If you have outlined that, and you probably have, I have lost it. I don't retain information like I used to...unfortunately.

I doubt that there is a way to bring up kids to think they don't have to do anything to deserve every thing we can possibly give them...and then expect integrity, loyalty and strength of character in return. What's wrong with that picture? I thought, when I raised my kids that the more I gave them, the better mother I was. My goal was to give them everything I'd never had and I would be a great success. My mom thought the more she taught us to cope and perform, the better mother she was.

However, some of my upbringing surfaced and I have spoken of that before: when the kids chose to leave home, they accepted adult status and could not return...except as temporary guests. And for some reason, they thought that was so solid that my grandsons were raised that way, as well. (I don't know much about how my high school and college aged great grandchildren are being raised, as they live in Paris.) My sons were also taught that a loan was a loan, not a gift, and it was only given to an adult who would keep his word...and they have. So, in some ways...I tried to straddle the cultural shift (which probably confused everyone, including me.)

Creme, your son loves his wife. In some ways that's a mystery but they definitely seem to have some kind of rapport that works for them. She makes him happy even though it's hard to see how that's possible at times. Certainly, not giving his mom a fair shake or even minimal respect doesn't make him happy...but he still finds what he wants in his marriage. All I can see that you can do is stay friends with him without discussing the "elephant in the middle of the living room" as much as possible...and keep an open mind and heart toward her, should she ever choose to face and work through her issues, i.e.: grow up.

Holding you in my heart.

Thank you Luise...I'm sending big hugs...I appreciate always your input....

cremebrulee

ahhh yes, how well I remember the look...do you also remember how we were taught to whisper in any public place as to not interfer with another person's space....or how we were taught to play quietly b/c the neighbor worked nights and was sleeping during the day....?  Do you remember, how we were so afraid of police...or at least I was...maybe that's b/c my real mother always told me that she was going to call the cops and have them lock me up in a children's home...my real mother was and still is a mess...

anyway...I know of what you speak...

Hugs
Creme

cremebrulee

Quote from: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 02:15:21 PM
Oh, man...I'd forgotten about "The Look!" Talk about Fast Freeze!!!!

LOL, yeah, and thats all it took...!!!!!

cremebrulee

all you gals are priceless, and I can't thank you enough for your support, and true words...I'm not offended easily nor by truth, even if it hurts...I believe in it and want it....

Thanks and big hugs to all of you...I do feel better, and plan to chew on all of this for a while...

Creme

luise.volta

March 07, 2010, 02:31:05 PM #35 Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 02:33:46 PM by luise.volta
My knees go rubbery when I think about i! :o

Nice to have walked the walk and talked the talk with you Creme...now rest and digest.  ;)
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

catchingup

March 07, 2010, 02:38:01 PM #36 Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 02:43:46 PM by catchingup

Cremebrulee my future daughter-in-law and I have our birthdays on the same day.
I was just thinking about what you said about birthdays.
If my DS and FDIL forget mine I will sure know I am dammed.

You mention an incident where your DIL reacted when you bathed your GD.
Did you ask her whether  you could help with the bathing.
If my MIL took the initiative and just did that without asking me I would have been mad.
I cant even tell you why I would have been mad but I think it is because I would have felt she was taking over my role as the mother.
Answer sounds so stupid.

In South Africa we celebrate the coming of age of our children when they are 21 . In Britain it is 18.
I did all the catering for my eldest and middle sons 21st and they had very successful parties.
My youngest sons FMIL walked into my home with bowls of salads and I was not even approached to ask if they could help.
As a mother it is my previlege to give my son his 21st party. I resented that.
I did not say anything at the time but years later when my FDIL was rude to me I brought it up and my son defended the FMIL
Uhhhhh. Maybe I am the Witch.

Well he gets on well with them which is a blessing. Seems they dont like his mother.

I prayed that the Lord would show him some of her imperfections seeing they are so aware of mine--whatever that may be--and lo and behold the next thing he tells me she irritates him. Funny thing to pray??? Why not ?? It worked.

These problems I read here scare me. I think I will move far away then I dont have to get into trouble.

It is hard but I do think you aught to find a hobby.Life is so short . It is not worth wasting it trying to win your DIL's Approval
I am sure you have your sons approval. It is difficult to really understand how sons think but they certainly are the ones inbetween.
I dont think they understand the magnitude of parents feelings. Too busy working and providing for a family and do not realize that mothers keep feeling hurt day in and day out.
She will be a GM one day then what?? Does she think it will be any differant?

And a big,huge,enormous hug Cremebrulee

cocobars

Creme,  I just thought of something and I don't know if it will help you understand your DIL or not.  It's about her being molested as a child.  I think I remember in one of your posts you talked about it, and correct me if I'm wrong here.

When I was a child I had some abuse.  When I married I was beaten by my first husband and so on.  Now, whenever anyone, and I mean "anyone" acts irritated with me, I get a feeling in the pit of my stomach.  I always wonder if they want to beat me.  I watch their body language, the tone in their voice, the look on their face and pay close attention to how near they are getting to me.  I've learned over the years that no matter how hard I try, I always get "that" feeling in my stomach.  If I upset someone, I think they are going to be violent and lash out. It's an "instant" response" that I actually get physical symptoms from - nausea, shaking, adrenalin. 

What I'm trying to say as far as your DIL and that bath is that I don't really believe it was anything you did.  I think she may have the same problems with that part of her life.  She may have even gone to counselling (I know I did).  I know I did my best to get over the feelings and it's alot better, but I've learned I may have to live with myself for the rest of my life, as far as physical symtoms go.  I believe your DIL's reaction wasn't about you in particular, but was about her.  If she hasn't had counselling, she really would benefit from it, but may never get over it, depending on how violent it was or maybe how scared she was. I've gotten over alot of the visible signs, but nobody really see's what I'm going through inside. 

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.  I think she may not have reacted to you as much as herself...   She may carry around this scar for her entire life.

2chickiebaby

Here's what I've read that they say about our birthdays.  We're PA (Passive aggressive) so we give hints when our BDay is coming.  We're whiners and martyrs.  If we do one thing wrong, we're labeled, "narcissistic".  Excuse me, these narcissists must be running rampant because apparently they all happen to be Mothers in law. Imagine that.

How convenient.

How low can these girls go?  Our craptaculars (that's our family get-togethers).  Our families are called:  faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamily by them.  I wish I could line up every one of them and wring their necks.  How dare them treat people like this.  How dare them.

I cowered in fear of them for centuries.  I went on web-sites where they are and genuinely asked for help.  I was met with the most hostile group of sub-human typing robots that you have ever seen. It scared me. All of them would gang up on me and make me feel inconsolably sad. 

You have no idea how mean people can be till you've been there.  Never go to the wolfs den and ask for directions.   They eat people.  I know they enjoyed their lunch.  I swear they almost killed me.

No, they are not my DILs...please don't remind me.  I only wanted to new rules because there are new rules in the way things are done.  Believe me, it's not good either.  God help the kids and God help the world they are sending the kids into.

luise.volta

March 07, 2010, 03:12:38 PM #39 Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 03:20:34 PM by luise.volta
Chickie - That made me think about how holidays are for me now. I bought myself a mini-electric frying pan for my birthday gift from Val. Then I showed it to him and told him it was his gift to me. I have to be very careful how do that because on Valentine's Day, I showed him a little stuffed animal and told him that, and he hugged it and said, "Thank you!" (and then forgot all about it, of course.)  ;D ;D

(And you're welcome. I love you!)
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

2chickiebaby

Ha!!!  I'm glad you can find humor in it, Luise.  Good for you. ;D

(thanks for doing what you did)

Pen

Creme, sorry I kind of turned things. I meant to add {{{hugs}}} to you. And I agree with Coco, I think your DIL has been really hurt by someone, but not by you. Maybe she sees you as a safe place to act out - she knows you're always going to be there, at least for DS and GC, and maybe for her by default. I don't know...it's still not right to be treated poorly, no matter what the situation. I sincerely hope and pray that your family can straighten this all out. More {{{hugs}}} !

Chickie, I hear ya. The rules seem to change from day to day. It's so bizarre. I really get tense around birthdays and holidays.

Luise, that's so cute. Maybe we should all just take care of our gifts ourselves! I know I always like what I put in my own Christmas stocking :)
Respect ... is appreciation of the separateness of the other person, of the ways in which he or she is unique.
-- Annie Gottlieb

Postscript

Pen I'm not from the USA.  Schools here teach a program about children and their rights.  Some of it seems ridiculous, a child 14 or under cannot be held criminally responsible for example, unless they commit murder.  Shoplifting children get a lift home to their parents, no consequences.  You cannot tell me a child of 5 or 8 does not know that stealing is wrong?  Children cannot be spanked by law,(not that I ever hit my children beyond a slap on the hand for danger, reasoning better a sting on the hand than electrocution/run over etc when they were preschooler), they cannot be confined (sent to their rooms) or forced in any way physically and parents can be prosecuted for all these things.  It seems our society has gone from spare the rod spoil the child all the way to children should have no consequences.  I disagree with both schools of thought and put myself in the middle somewhere.

At school there isn't any competition, a little healthy competition is good, but now everyone is a winner.  It's as though someone took the "it's not whether you win or lose but how you play" philosophy and stretched it beyond all reality.  I do feel sorry for these children when they go out into the world and find bosses who accept no excuses and have real expectations, then dole out consequences for not meeting them.

But this is off track lol.

Creme add me to Coco's school of thought.  Victims of abuse are often conditioned by their abuse.  Like a dog that cowers when you raise your hand.  Additionally they rely on cues, body language, tone of voice etc to check for threats and assess their safety.

cremebrulee

March 07, 2010, 03:36:39 PM #43 Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 04:09:54 PM by cremebrulee
Quote from: cocobars on March 07, 2010, 02:51:56 PM
Creme,  I just thought of something and I don't know if it will help you understand your DIL or not.  It's about her being molested as a child.  I think I remember in one of your posts you talked about it, and correct me if I'm wrong here.

When I was a child I had some abuse.  When I married I was beaten by my first husband and so on.  Now, whenever anyone, and I mean "anyone" acts irritated with me, I get a feeling in the pit of my stomach.  I always wonder if they want to beat me.  I watch their body language, the tone in their voice, the look on their face and pay close attention to how near they are getting to me.  I've learned over the years that no matter how hard I try, I always get "that" feeling in my stomach.  If I upset someone, I think they are going to be violent and lash out. It's an "instant" response" that I actually get physical symptoms from - nausea, shaking, adrenalin. 

What I'm trying to say as far as your DIL and that bath is that I don't really believe it was anything you did.  I think she may have the same problems with that part of her life.  She may have even gone to counselling (I know I did).  I know I did my best to get over the feelings and it's alot better, but I've learned I may have to live with myself for the rest of my life, as far as physical symtoms go.  I believe your DIL's reaction wasn't about you in particular, but was about her.  If she hasn't had counselling, she really would benefit from it, but may never get over it, depending on how violent it was or maybe how scared she was. I've gotten over alot of the visible signs, but nobody really see's what I'm going through inside. 

I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.  I think she may not have reacted to you as much as herself...   She may carry around this scar for her entire life.

Hi coco, thanks so much for writing and sharing...I know it can't be easy to relive that....because, I went thru the same thing as you did as a child...however, I did seek out counseling...and it's all better now, except that knot in the pit of your stomach when you think you've upset someone...I get it to...I consider myself, one of the most fortunate gals on the face of this planet, as I had foster parents take over rearing me...they knew what was going on and were kind enough to take me in...it wasn't anything legal...they were neighbors...and I don't know if you remember, the show the Honeymooners...but I hated that show, b/c he scared me, I always thought he was going to hit her...and the yelling and screaming is what I grew up with...I saw one of my step father's beat my real mom so badly, she couldn't go to work for a week, she was all black and blue...she was to embarrassed to go to the hospital....

I do not and never will condone violence...however, I stood by and watched my real mother provoke her men into hitting her...she was evil...she beat me up all the time...and I wasn't a bad kid, I feared her...and always thought I was adopted b/c no real mother would treat her child like this....my cousin's saw it to...and to this day, one of them constantly tells me, how she couldn't believe how mean my mother was to me....she always says, you were a good kid...

I to was sexually abused as a child...but I got thru it, I don't know how....I'm strong willed and wanted to be a good woman. I remember reading somewhere when I was a child, that sometimes, sexually abused kids turn into sexual abusers...and that scared the livin daylights out of me, so I went to counseling and poured out my soul.  This was before my son was born...the counselor said, that I was a strong woman...and we worked together on this for awhile...I got rid of the anger, and embarrassement, along with the feelings that it  was my fault...and get this...I didn't tell anyone about it for a long time, b/c I was the oldest, and I thought, If I told and I wasn't allowed to go to that household any longer, then he would abuse my cousins and they were all younger then me...it was they're father...later, when I grew older, and we started talking about it, I found out, it didn't matter, he was abusing his own daughters anyway...

So today, I've learned to put it in the past....my girl cousins are not so lucky...they've had severe problems over the years....

I don't know for certain...if my DIL was abused, it's something my son told me about years ago before they were married...that he suspected...she didn't talk to much about what happened to  her, however, he mother kept abandoning her and her siblings, as well as her brother and sister...she was left to pretty much raise herself...but I will tell you this, there is plenty of baggage, just from her raising herself....and I believe that is why she is so selfish and unthinking of the feelings of others...I also feel, that there is a slight possiblity she may have rejected me, before I could reject her...I dunno....people do not do things for one reason...It's difficult sometimes to feel compassion for her, and other time, my heart bleeds for her...and I do understand why she may have reacted that way...that is the first thing my girlfriend asked me after I told her about it...was she abused as a child?

I dunno what sparked those things, but I will tell you this...and remember, we all think differently about things...however, I observe families who are functioning...and the DIL's allow they're children to stay over at mom mom's and pop pops...we did as well, it was quality time with our grandparents that we looked forward to...my dil would never allow that...she is and this I'm not imagining, very territorial about her daughter and her husband...and she is standoffish...no one gets in, unless she says so...

So your thoughts are not off base.


Cathing up...while I so appreciate your comments...again, the bath thing  comes down to how you were raised....years ago, we all took baths together to save water....and giving a child a bath isn't a bad thing...adding...I did it to help her, not hurt her or overstep any boundaries...and it saddens me that you would get upset about it...that is part of a mother, what a mother does...we are nurturers...and by the way...I say this with all kindness and respect...all of my girlfriends, my cousins, get they're grandchildren overnight...they give them baths...she was a small baby then, when I did it...we had been playing outside all day...except for her nap, she was a bit dirty and I didn't want to take her home like that...I feared her getting mad at me for letting my GD get dirty...guess I as wrong....

while we all do things differently, according to the way we were raised...I see nothing wrong with giving my GD a bath...and by the way, I babysat sometimes for 7 little one's at one time...I was a Sunday School teacher and youth group advisor...when ever I hear about a child being molested in this world, I become so angry with our society, that we don't get these perps off the streets for good...some abuse as many as hundreds of children, and I become so very angry that society doesn't insist that these men and woman who abuse children are put away for life.  I feel, it is our jobs to protect our children....no matter if they are ours or not...so, I'm extra sensitive about that subject, and cry my heart out when ever I hear about a young child being abused...it isn't fair...that we as a society, allow this to continue...it changes that child's life forever, takes away they're trust for man kind...and scars them for life...and yet, we have more feelings for the perps...a sick man or woman who would take advantage of a child's innocence and destroy them....

So, yeah, while you may be right..I don't see the wrong in what I did...and it hurt me something awful to see her act like that...and yet, every weekend she bought that child to me to watch...and I am working full time?  I wanted her but it surely did wear me out....so why?  Did I really do that wrong.

As far as your party for your son...I can understand your feelings....however...there are people that always over bring stuff...not because they want to top you or hurt you, but they want to contribute...then you have people who bring nothing....so, what I'm saying is...if I were having a party, and I do entertain a lot, I don't get upset if people bring things that I never asked them to bring....I know they feel better contributing...so, for me, it's not a big deal.  Please remember, I'm not saying your wrong and I'm right...I don't believe they're is a right or wrong answer, it is simply how each individual feels.

Please believe me when I say, this with the utmost respect...but telling me to find a hobby...hun, this has been going on for 12 years, and as hard as you imagine it to be, it's even harder...I do have hobbies, go on vacations, and get involved with the community...due to my health, I've been house bounded more so now, so, it's difficult to get to involved, as rest is very important along with peace in my life....however, a hobby doesn't fill the loss of a son and daughter, let alone a GD...when they were home for a year, I was watching her every single weekend, both Sat. and Sun and it was quit difficult for me, to have them leave...however, I realized, they needed to continue they're journey...I can't tell you enough, how I'm able to let people go and move on to experience life...I don't ask people questions, which a lot of my friends think is quite odd...I figure, if they want to tell me things...they will, and those things they confide in me, are not to be repeated....it's who I am...I'm not clingy and can't stand being smothered...and I only saw my son, once a year if that...so how hard would it be, to get along for a few days? 

A lot of the stuff I've comlained about my DIL are small things...but add to the hurt...and I'm sure there were times when I read her reactions wrong...however, I do know, there is something not right here...and never has been since day one...she rejected me from the very beginning...

However, please know in all sincerity, I do appreicate your feedback and advice...gives me food for thought...yes, maybe I did do wrong...I dunno?  It seems I couldn't do anything right...and it made me so tense and fearful...there came a time, when I even feared showing my son attention or love, or hugging him in front of her...I tried so hard to be more attentive to her....I don't know...I don't know...she refuses to discuss it with me, therefore, I can only surmise....I know I upset her and for that I'm sorry...so sorry, I just didn't know, I did things the way I was raised to do them....

catching up....you also stated that someday she's going to be a grandmother, and how will she be...

it's no consulation for all this precious time I've lost with them...precious time...I'm not long for this world...time is growing short...and I'm faced with dying without resolving this...that I will never know my son again...that my DIL hates me...and my GD is now 7 and I may never see her again...

DIL holds the trump card, she says where they can and can't go...and I believe when this all started years ago...I knew, and feared and was in denial, yet, in my heart of hearts...cathing up...a person doesn't act like she did towards me, unless she is trying to push me away....my son says I'm crazy for feeling that, thinking it...but I know it's true...a mother knows...she does...and  it makes life a living hell sometimes...it's so hurtful...there is nothing you can do or say to resolve it...and go forward...it's like a dark cloud that follows you around every waking hour...some days are good, some not so good...but it is very painful and heartbreaking and does most definately take a toll on one's health.  This is worse then anything I've ever experienced in my life, and I have experiences a lot...



luise.volta

March 07, 2010, 03:38:10 PM #44 Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 03:45:12 PM by luise.volta
Often people aren't aware of what causes their reactions. The program is way deep down in the unconscious where the old trauma is stored and is explained away because they're pretty much stuck with it.

I learned this from my very close friend who died last May. Something would drop me in my tracks and I would be on my lips...convinced that my reaction and behavior were very logical. Then something similar would happened to her and she'd laugh! I mean it...howl. Some one would be terribly rude to her and she'd look at me questioningly and say something like..."Doesn't she have a weird point of view?"...and  actually laugh. I started using what I called The Dotte Test in my life...like, "OK, what would Dotte say (or do) if this happened to her?"  I started seeing that my perspectives were so subjective. I had a very wobbly self-image and she thought very highly of herself.  ;D

I know it takes a long time to get to where that can be factored in. People are often fighting unseen, forgotten or unknown tigers...and it's not about us at all.
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama