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It goes on and on....

Started by cremebrulee, March 07, 2010, 07:39:22 AM

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cremebrulee

Quote
Quote from: luise.volta on March 07, 2010, 10:58:51 AM
About five years ago, when I had my last impasse with someone close, (a friend of 25 years)...it was email based. When I talked with Kirk, (who is a licensed counselor and ordained minister,) about it later he told the that my only chance would probably have been one-on-one. Letters whether snail mail or email are unilateral communications without the benefit of body language, tone of voice, eye contact or the exchange of energy fields. The result is that they are extremely easy to misinterpret.

My situation was not similar to yours since if involved her sharing a confidence with me after agonizing over it for 25 years...and then creating a permanent break in our friendship because she couldn't stand my knowing about it. Pretty much a catch 22...but I do remember Kirk's feedback, after the fact. When he said that, I contacted her and set up a meeting...but she came armed with printouts of my emails all marked up with highlighter and it was a lost cause for the reasons given above.

I've never know this situation, until now, and it's such a shame...I'm sorry this happened to you...however, Luise,  you never know what tomorrow brings, right? 

As for the mean streak, I don't believe it...we all have different tollerance levels, but I see you as a person, like myself, who can take a lot...however, you probably do have a place, when pushed to much, it breaks...which is only human...much love to you...thank you

QuoteThere probably isn't a right thing to do. My mom used to say, "Sometimes you have to choose between wrong and wronger." I am heavily prejudiced in your favor, keep that in mind, and I have have a nasty little streak in me that wishes she would have drawn the mean-mother-in-law card. Shame on me! (Why am I smiling?)

Your mother must have been a very wise woman...and thank you for the compliment and support...

Creme

cremebrulee

QuotePostscript
Creme I can see blame on both sides here, mostly though a lack of communication.  Both of you are perceiving different things as rude and either reacting outwardly or holding on to them.  You and your daughter in law are different types of people.  I'd venture to guess that the only thing you have in common is that you are the mother of her husband. 

Your probably right...I don't believe she and I do have much in common....but having someone like that in your family...well, to me, it's a very good learning experience.


QuoteDifferent generations have different attitudes, for example I don't see it as rude for her to take her husbands arm and walk with him, but I agree they should have walked at your pace and included you, where you are putting the blame for that on her (or seem to be I could be very wrong) I think your son had a part to play in that too.

There is nothing wrong with her taking my husband's arm...nothing at all, however, it is so rude for her to pull him ahead, not turn around once, or include me in conversation while walking back to the car....and it's always happening...not that it bothers me that much...just an example...


QuoteThe same with them snuggling on the couch.  He has the power to include you and he should.

yes, however, I believe they are both wrong....and they say, after you live with someone long enough, you become like them...and you do...so believe me, many times I have asked myself...why does he buy into all of this...he wasn't raised like this...to be so rude, let alone excuse it?

 
QuoteAs for her yelling at your son, that is between them and while I personally don't believe in reigning my husbands attitude in, in a public setting, she apparently has no such inhibitions.  You excuse your son because he was tired and had picked you up at the airport.  Perhaps your daughter in law was tired too and she was at the airport as well.  He is an adult and he doesn't need you to get upset for him or take any action.  Presume you have equipped him for life with the power to defend himself if and when he finds it necessary.  In other words, don't hold what is essentially between them, personally.

Ok, this one I should explain...1st, she didn't come to the airport...only he did...and yes, he's been tired for a long time...he works 3  jobs...he didn't snap at her, and the moment she yelled at him...I was in a state of shock, thinking..."What the heck bought that on?"  He wasn't rude, condiscending or anything, he just answered her in a tired tone...not at all a tone of indifference...I personally think, she was trying to show me, her power and that she doesn't put up with anything, using that particular incident, as an excuse to weild her control....? I dunno, I could be wrong?  I was simply shocked by the whole thing...
QuoteGiving money to adults can say many things, especially when it's for no apparent reason other than to help out.  Giving me money is implying I need it, can't take care of myself and my family, it's pride I suppose.  Your son tried to give it back, then tried to give you the change.  The fact he did it several times, says to me it embarrassed him and while you were hurt, I don't think your display took his feelings into account.
I never took that into account...and I can see your point...however, and this is no excuse, but it's what a mother does, isn't it...trys to help they're kids out financially..it wasn't a whole lot of money...?  Am I wrong?  I can, see your point....


QuoteThink of it as a learning experience for yourself and look at how you could handle it differently in the future.  I also wonder why it's ok for you to throw money and have a little public attitude when you find it rude for your daughter in law to do so?  Forgive me but that seems something of a double standard.

No need to forgive you, it was Wrong on my part, really Wrong...it was a culmination of the whole week...how she  snapped at me, when I asked her if I could help her in the kitchen, and of course, my son wasn't present, but she said..."OHHHH Calm down and go away!"  Her walking out of the resturant...and not once, allowing me to choose a resturant...I was paying for our dinners...I only wanted to treat them...but we had to go to where she wanted to go, always...when she's ready to go...I was wrong and there is no excuse for my behavior...as my girlfriend said, while my DIL and son, may still be adults, I'm still the mother...and I should have never ever acted like that...I was in fact so frustrated...hurt, etc. 

QuoteI think the biggest hurdle to getting over a rift is that somebody has to take the first step and apologize.  I'm sure that your daughter in law feels you owe her an apology and you probably feel the same, for all the hurts and slights etc.  It's not so much being the bigger person, it's taking ownership and that first step, it's an apology for your part in the degeneration of the relationship.  Don't expect to get one back, an apology should be unconditional, unreserved, meaningful and specific.  An apology is the beginning of healing, it isn't the solution.  Communication needs to be opened and it has to be in a manner acceptable to both parties.  As my father used to say wishing and doing are two different things, wishing doesn't get it done.
I hope you don't take this as an attack, it isn't meant to be.  I am trying to offer you some different perspectives, food for thought.  I admire your desire to make a change and wish you well in your efforts should you summon the courage to contact her.
[/quote]

yes, that's true...my son once told me, if your waiting for an apology from DIL, don't hold your breath...she will never apologize, and, as I know her, she will never take ownership, it's all my fault...but I do agree, it should be unconditional...

Yanno, I lost 3 babies, and I love children...however, when my son told me he was going to propose to DIL, I was extactic...finally, another female friend...oh, I was so overjoyed, and I never saw this whole thing coming, and it's still so hard for me to comprehend...

I don't know what I'm going to do, but expect nothing no matter what I do...and I believe Luise is right, you can't change hearts...

I'm so thankful for your feedback and appreciate you taking the time to read and comment...you've been very kind and agree with what you say...

cremebrulee

March 07, 2010, 12:23:26 PM #17 Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 12:32:08 PM by cremebrulee
Quotecocobars
Creme, I'm so sorry you are agonizing over this.  I'm afraid I'm stumped.  I wouldn't know what to do either.  I "think" I would wait if it were me.  At least until your son came home and had a little time to settle back in.  I'm not sure of that, but that's what I "think" I would do.

What a heartbreak, but I really do agree that it's a good sign.  Holding all that in for so long is never good for anyone, and I'm hoping that ends up proving to be an important conversation.

Keep your chin up and let us know what you decide.  Hugging you!

Thanks cocoa...

this isn't something I'm going to jump into, believe me...but if I do decide to write or call her, I will let you know...
I just wish like anything, none of this would have ever happened...I wish I would have been healthier mentally at the time all these things started happening, perhaps I would have reacted so much differently...I don'tknow if it was b/c I was going thru a divorce...or if I was being utterly immature...you back me into a corner, I'm going to come out fighting...however...when this all happened the first time, all that kept going thru my mind is....

What is happening here...is she doing this on purpose?  She holds the key that will enable me to be part of they're lives or not, and if they have children, what is to be?  What is going to happen...

I keep bouncing back and forth on this...but honestly, the whole thing was strange, very weird...I sure wish I was wrong, but I feel my DIL has been pushing my buttons all this time, to purposely estrange me from them...however, I know she doesn't like my son's step mother and father at times...but she tollerats them...why me?  Why so hateful to me...why does she say and do cruel things when my son's not around and is so nice to me when he is...how can you change like that? 

Like the time she came home, and without first taking her coat off, comes thru the door, barely says hello, and opens every cabinet in the kitchen and slams the doors shut on each one of them....what was that all about...?  Was she angry b/c I was in her home...?

And what about the time I gave my Grand daughter a bath, and got her ready for bed before I took my grand daughter home to her mother...I thought I was doing a good thing...but she grabbed the child out of my arms, went to the opposite corner of the room, got this strange look of fear in her eyes, and starting rocking back and forth, holding the baby close to her, like I had hurt that child...my God, what did I do?  And then I was told by my son to not ever give her any baths any more??????

I thought she'd be  happy that I did that...I did it for her, so that she could read to my GD and that's it...I wouldn't hurt any child...and I was so hurt by that....why would she think that of me...my son and I got along so well when he was growing up...he was so easy to raise...was he perfect, no...but a very easy child to raise, and we had so many good times, along with the kids from our church, and all my son's friends....?  I don't get this...

She makes me feel like I'm no good...like when she is constantly bringing up how I gave my GD soda for Breakfast...I never gave her soda, but wasn't going to argue with her??????  It just doesn't make sense...none of this..

cocoa, thanks for the hugs

I don't know what I'm going to do, I remember the last time I apologized to her, a long time ago, when she was pregnant, she yelled at me...."You hurt me, I don't know if I could ever trust you again"...I was so upset, I couldn't ask her, why, what did I do to hurt you, please tell me...but I couldn't even think that far...I was so upset and taken back by her attitude of stubborness, almost unwilling to discuss it, just kept blaming me for everything...and when she said to me, you never call me, you never ask to talk to me...well, from that point on, I started calling her...for years I phoned her and wouldn't give up...she never once, in all that time answered her phone, but if I mentioned it to my son...then she'd call...?  Why? 

I apologize, I just feel so helpless...and all the other emotions which go along with this...which you girls know about...I wish we  could all go forward, yes, it would be awkward and hard for a long time...however, I just feel,if she wasn't so vindictive...we could work it out...I mean, if you want something to work out, you try, don't you...?  You don't do things like this to antagonise the situation? 

Gosh, I don't know what to think, it's been a long long time since I've been around her....I don't know if I want to go there again..., and yet, if I don't try, I don't get to see my son or GD...

My son told me he asked her to have my GD call me, several times, but she only had her call me once...since my son left last June...now, ok, I understand, how she feels towards me, but why would a mother keep a grand daughter, her own daughter from her GM? 

And also, why would she not allow my GD to open the box I sent to her, she opens it, and in a rage, throws the 3 dresses out I bought for my GD...and my son's step mother said, b/c they were there...those were beautiful dresses to.  What mother would take away recieving the joy of a package from her own daughter...to me, that says she really really hates me? 




2chickiebaby

Creme, you are dealing with a crazy woman.  You are.  I don't know if it's sexual abuse (the bath?) or what but she has it in for you and that's that.  You cannot win with her. 

These people are going to never, NEVER change.  You can change but dangit, that's not fair, is it?  All info goes through her into him and that's the end of that story. He will tell her he talked to you, he will.  Get prepared for more hatred coming from her.

She did all these things to hurt you.  You know it and I know it.  I'm sorry. People are different but people who have no manners are trash.  I don't care if they've read 30 versions of Boundaries, they're still trash. 

To not have common courtesy in our society, in our country with our freedoms is unacceptable.  She should have shown the mother of her husband common courtesy, she didn't and that makes her trash.  You might get mad at me and I'm sorry but that's how I see it. 

Instead of trash let's just say, "no manners".

cremebrulee

March 07, 2010, 12:44:27 PM #19 Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 12:46:54 PM by cremebrulee
Quote from: 2chickiebaby on March 07, 2010, 12:38:58 PM
Creme, you are dealing with a crazy woman.  You are.  I don't know if it's sexual abuse (the bath?) or what but she has it in for you and that's that.  You cannot win with her. 

These people are going to never, NEVER change.  You can change but dangit, that's not fair, is it?  All info goes through her into him and that's the end of that story. He will tell her he talked to you, he will.  Get prepared for more hatred coming from her.

She did all these things to hurt you.  You know it and I know it.  I'm sorry. People are different but people who have no manners are trash.  I don't care if they've read 30 versions of Boundaries, they're still trash. 

To not have common courtesy in our society, in our country with our freedoms is unacceptable.  She should have shown the mother of her husband common courtesy, she didn't and that makes her trash.  You might get mad at me and I'm sorry but that's how I see it. 

Instead of trash let's just say, "no manners".

I'm not mad at you, I'm sitting here bawling like a baby...she is not trash chickie, she's a human being...and I feel so sorry that she grew up the way she did...no one should ever have to go thru that...but I also feel sorry for me...however, Chickie...I will never call her trash...she loves my son, he loves her...she must have many good points about her otherwise, he wouldn't love her, right?

And he does love her so much...so much so, that he is always posting on his facebook, messages to her...and it hurts me to see, that he is always the one who initiates saying things like,  "I want to wish my beautiful wife, a Happy Valentines Day, I miss you and wish I were there"...and she will come back and repeat the same thing,but she has never posted anything first to him on his facebook...and it bothers me....it's always, I love you to hun, or I miss you to babe...but never once has she come in and said, Honey, I love you and want you to know I was thinking of you, and miss you terrible...?  Or not once has she said, my handsome husband...and he is always always saying, my beautiful wife...is that b/c he is trying to stroke her ego, and knows he must?  Or is he only infactuated with her beauty?  Or am I making to much out of things?  Reading things that are not there?


Postscript

as my girlfriend said, while my DIL and son, may still be adults, I'm still the mother...and I should have never ever acted like that...I was in fact so frustrated...hurt, etc.

With respect Creme, I think your friend is wrong.  It has nothing to do with "I'm still the mother" and everything to do with being respectful of your sons feelings.  I appreciate it had been a "long" week though and it's a good example of what I said earlier about holding on to things.  Sometimes, something has to give, the trick is not getting to that point.

I obviously misunderstood when your daughter in law yelled at your son, you were on the way home and she was in the car with you.

but it's what a mother does, isn't it...trys to help they're kids out financially

Again with the greatest of respect, no it's not what a parent does, in my opinion.  That old saying give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for life applies here.  You teach your children to make a living and clearly your son has a terrific work ethic coupled with an admirable desire to provide for his family.  Congratulations, you've done a wonderful job raising a responsible human being.  Instead of giving money, I suggest you give the gift of praise and the knowledge that should he need anything you are there for him, he only need ask. 

yes, however, I believe they are both wrong....and they say, after you live with someone long enough, you become like them...and you do...so believe me, many times I have asked myself...why does he buy into all of this...he wasn't raised like this...to be so rude, let alone excuse it?

He's loving toward his wife, that is a good thing.  The only way to find out why he is excusing this is to ask him why HE doesn't include you, at this point all you've done is ask him to explain her behavior.  At least that is what is expressed in your post.

What Chickie said about not having a much of a relationship with the son if you don't have one with the daughter in law doesn't have to be so.  It's all about how much a son is willing to put into maintaining a relationship and how much responsibility they are willing to take in a smooth relationship between their wife and mother.  It works the same way with the maternal parents.  When you put two families, with different upbringings, views etc together, there is always going to be friction along the way. 

I think in the main women are more proactive about it.  We need to be teaching our sons that they have a responsibility for relationships linked to their marriages as well.  I think society lets men still get away with an awful lot when it comes to maintaining the home and relationships within their families.  It's like birthdays, my husband and I made an agreement years ago (mainly because my family is so prolific) that he would take care of birthdays for his family, I would take care of mine (meaning I had the lions share).  Suffice to say, his families birthdays more often than not go uncelebrated.  Mine do not.  I know my mother in law holds me responsible for that while I carry a free conscience.  I know this because when we still did gifts for adults, I never got one from my parents in law and my husband always did.  When we did speak about it, I told him this was because HE didn't keep up his end of our bargin and I was getting the blame.  That's about when he made the announcement we would only buy for kids...sigh. 

2chickiebaby

Creme, the minute I hit send, I felt so bad about sending it.  I AM SO SORRY!!! 

Please understand that I am so sick and tired to trying to stand on my eyelash to please a young woman that your post hit a nerve. I don't usually get that mad but I did.

I am sorry. I should not have called her that. Why in the world a young person cannot treat their elders right is beyond my capability of thinking.  Once again, I reacted when it's none of my business. 

Postscript

Chickie at the risk of moving this discussion in an altogether different direction...

The younger generation have been given too many rights.  When I was a child I was taught to be seen and not heard, to act like a lady and respect my elders because they had lived and knew more.  I was promised that when I grew up, I would be respected in turn but it was made clear to me that as a child, my parents values were the rule.

Now schools go ahead and tell children they have rights, that they deserve more.  It's the result of the uninformed village raising the children.

2chickiebaby

Postscript, you are so right.  The uninformed village is raising the children.  It's a mess.

I will tell you that one of our DILS does whatever is necessary to make her children happy. If they want an honor, she sees to it they get one.  They never have to work for one single thing.  In her mind, they cannot fail, get hurt, have adversity, ever.  I think it's sad because although they are darling kids, adversity will come their way, like it or not. So hard to watch.

The world will not cater to you just because you're you.  I really like the "uninformed village" statement.  :)

cremebrulee

QuotePostscript

With respect Creme, I think your friend is wrong.  It has nothing to do with "I'm still the mother" and everything to do with being respectful of your sons feelings.  I appreciate it had been a "long" week though and it's a good example of what I said earlier about holding on to things.  Sometimes, something has to give, the trick is not getting to that point.

My girlfriend said that about another subject...sorry, I inserted that part, and what I meant was, I should have never reacted like that...that was so wrong of me...but honestly, my girlfriend said "I am the mother, regardless of how old they are, and they should remember that"...and this is a woman whose DIL's all love her to death...they would do anything for her...

QuoteI obviously misunderstood when your daughter in law yelled at your son, you were on the way home and she was in the car with you.

This happened the very next day...my DIL wasn't along when my son picked me up...the very next day when we got in the car to go somewhere, the moment we were in the car it happened, he had not even started the car yet....

QuoteAgain with the greatest of respect, no it's not what a parent does, in my opinion.  That old saying give a man a fish he eats for a day, teach a man to fish he eats for life applies here.  You teach your children to make a living and clearly your son has a terrific work ethic coupled with an admirable desire to provide for his family.  Congratulations, you've done a wonderful job raising a responsible human being.  Instead of giving money, I suggest you give the gift of praise and the knowledge that should he need anything you are there for him, he only need ask.

Yes, I agree and understand....

QuoteHe's loving toward his wife, that is a good thing.  The only way to find out why he is excusing this is to ask him why HE doesn't include you, at this point all you've done is ask him to explain her behavior.  At least that is what is expressed in your post.

Right again....I agree...

QuoteWhat Chickie said about not having a much of a relationship with the son if you don't have one with the daughter in law doesn't have to be so.  It's all about how much a son is willing to put into maintaining a relationship and how much responsibility they are willing to take in a smooth relationship between their wife and mother.  It works the same way with the maternal parents.  When you put two families, with different upbringings, views etc together, there is always going to be friction along the way.

your absolutely right, but I believe some son's fear loving they're mothers, and by the way, when this all started, they went to counseling b/c of me, b/c of the stress it was causing on they're marriage....that is what he told me today...and that hurt awful....

QuoteI think in the main women are more proactive about it.  We need to be teaching our sons that they have a responsibility for relationships linked to their marriages as well.  I think society lets men still get away with an awful lot when it comes to maintaining the home and relationships within their families. 

Yes, I agree...

QuoteIt's like birthdays, my husband and I made an agreement years ago (mainly because my family is so prolific) that he would take care of birthdays for his family, I would take care of mine (meaning I had the lions share). 

I'm not saying your wrong...I was simply raised differently, and enjoyed being a part of sending my MIL and FIL cards, doing things for them...but then, I was always a card person...and we do it at work all the time...I dunno, it's simply how you were raised I guess....and has to be a mutual agreement between man and wife...however, if I didn't send the cards, my husband would have never bothered...which I thought was awful...however, he would stop in once a week and have dinner with them, and her after his father passed away....and take her out to dinner once in a while...my family or I would say, hubby has a date with his mother tonight...and I thought it very healthy for him to spend quality time alone with her...

QuoteSuffice to say, his families birthdays more often than not go uncelebrated.  Mine do not.  I know my mother in law holds me responsible for that while I carry a free conscience.
Well, she shouldn't, that's wrong, however, it must hurt her very much to not be celebrated...for instance...my son's step mother, turned 60 years ago...they had a huge party for her...my son and DIL couldn't be there, but hired a comedian to come to her party...they never did anything close to that for me, my son never even remembered my birthday, which didn't start until after they were married, before that, he always remembered my birthday....and boy, does that hurt...

QuoteI know this because when we still did gifts for adults, I never got one from my parents in law and my husband always did.  When we did speak about it, I told him this was because HE didn't keep up his end of our bargin and I was getting the blame.  That's about when he made the announcement we would only buy for kids...sigh.


yes, sigh is right...I believe some men become so thoughtless and forgetful at times....I wonder how he would feel if everyone just forgot him on his birthday?

And believe me, I've only had one birthday party in my entire life...so I'm not needy in that respect...and now my son, does remember my birthday with a card and flowers...


cremebrulee

Quote from: Postscript on March 07, 2010, 01:07:28 PM
Chickie at the risk of moving this discussion in an altogether different direction...

The younger generation have been given too many rights.  When I was a child I was taught to be seen and not heard, to act like a lady and respect my elders because they had lived and knew more.  I was promised that when I grew up, I would be respected in turn but it was made clear to me that as a child, my parents values were the rule.

Now schools go ahead and tell children they have rights, that they deserve more.  It's the result of the uninformed village raising the children.

I was raised the same way, and believe, that is why this is such a shock...even to my system...b/c I never knew this  went on before it started happening to me....yes, every family has it's own family politics, however, you get over it, get through it...and yes, I disagree with how kids are raised to believe today...it's wrong...

Chickie...when those kids grow up, they are going to be in for a huge culture shock...most unfortunate...they won't understand what is happening to them...and it will change they're lives forever....

Our mother was very naieve...trusting and everyone was good...well, what a culture shock I had when I went out into the world...the trust I owned, got me close to killed...and that's the truth...

2chickiebaby

Creme,
Why do we try so desperately to understand these women?  I see the way they talk about us.  It's pathetic.  Like we're thieves and worse.   I am so sick and tired of trying to be treated right I don't know what to do.  Maybe this is good for me. I don't like being in either one of their homes. I don't feel good there.

I have one DIL whose family are reformed alcoholics. Did I ever hold that against her?  No, never.  Yet her Mother, who has acted like an ass is shown the red carpet.

The other one, (the whispering family) has a group of nuts you wouldn't believe.  I'm trying to fit in here and I am telling ya, I don't belong.

Those boys were raised with Southern manners.  They are movie star gorgeous, educated to the nines, dress like fashion plates and are courteous totally.  Their father taught them to stand when a lady came to our table while eating out, they still do.

The girls, while beautiful, are quite "wounded".  I'm very sorry they are.  No one lived the life I did and I am very wounded but I would never treat anyone, especially my husband's parents with disrespect, ever.  That is because I love him.  Did you hear that?  I love him.

Anyone who disrespects someone's parents just for grins needs to be taken to the woodshed and spanked, hard.  These girls, in this country with no manners.  Absolutely not acceptable.  Not acceptable.  Somebody needs a hard whippin.  Yes, I said whippin.


cremebrulee

I think we try so much and hard chickie, is for some normalcy to our lives....as I've stated so many times before...I only saw them once a year if that...so, it wasn't an issue that I was overbearing...or controlling...and I didn't want to be in they're lives as much as his dad does, and interfers....however....we know in our heart of hearts...if we can get along with our DIL's it brings peace to the whole circle...and, believe me, as much pain as we're going thru, I believe our sons are hurting just as much...so we're doing it for them to...not just us...

That time I tried talking to my DIL about this mess on the phone, I said..."Do you have any idea how much this is hurting son?"  She yelled, this isn't about him, it's about you and me??????  It is about him, it's hurting him and it just seems to me, she doesn't care...and he has chosen to bury his head in the sand and let things be as they are...and I believe honestly, he has the power to stop this...but fears doing so, b/c it would have a strain on they're marriage, and no one wants that...

But I blame him as much as her, and myself...

I wish, really wish, we could all go to counseling together....


luise.volta

We live in such a shifting culture. I, of course, was born in the 1920s and that goes "way" back. We, as children didn't have a sense of entitlement. It wasn't culturally appropriate to give us that image of ourselves...we had to earn it. Now, it's a given except in poverty and abuse dominated circumstances; that's the other end of the pendulum swing, of course.

I don't know how you brought up your son. If you have outlined that, and you probably have, I have lost it. I don't retain information like I used to...unfortunately.

I doubt that there is a way to bring up kids to think they don't have to do anything to deserve every thing we can possibly give them...and then expect integrity, loyalty and strength of character in return. What's wrong with that picture? I thought, when I raised my kids that the more I gave them, the better mother I was. My goal was to give them everything I'd never had and I would be a great success. My mom thought the more she taught us to cope and perform, the better mother she was.

However, some of my upbringing surfaced and I have spoken of that before: when the kids chose to leave home, they accepted adult status and could not return...except as temporary guests. And for some reason, they thought that was so solid that my grandsons were raised that way, as well. (I don't know much about how my high school and college aged great grandchildren are being raised, as they live in Paris.) My sons were also taught that a loan was a loan, not a gift, and it was only given to an adult who would keep his word...and they have. So, in some ways...I tried to straddle the cultural shift (which probably confused everyone, including me.)

Creme, your son loves his wife. In some ways that's a mystery but they definitely seem to have some kind of rapport that works for them. She makes him happy even though it's hard to see how that's possible at times. Certainly, not giving his mom a fair shake or even minimal respect doesn't make him happy...but he still finds what he wants in his marriage. All I can see that you can do is stay friends with him without discussing the "elephant in the middle of the living room" as much as possible...and keep an open mind and heart toward her, should she ever choose to face and work through her issues, i.e.: grow up.

Holding you in my heart.
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible. Dalai Lama

Pen

Postscript, to put your mind at ease, in our school district we do NOT advocate disrespect for adults, and I can't imagine that any school would want disrespect from their students. If the schools had as much influence over kids as some might want to believe, we'd have every student doing all their homework every night and every high school grad going to college. They'd all obey the speed limit, exercise regularly, wear nerd clothes, and eat balanced meals every day, LOL.

I agree that rudeness and bad manners are rampant, from nasty bumperstickers to road rage to how older citizens, the disabled, or anyone "different" are treated. I think a lot of people, young and old, feel entitled and superior for whatever reason (I think Luise is right on in her last post,) which makes it justifiable to treat others poorly. They don't feel it's necessary to treat anyone who's "less" in their eyes as human.

I also think a sense of entitlement can show up in different eras in different forms (hello, segregation!), not just as rudeness in this generation. I can't imagine treating anyone like that. I was raised to respect others without discrimination of any kind (religion, gender, creed, color, income level, etc, etc.) but many kids around me were very predjudiced and rude. My sibling and I were not allowed to misbehave in public or be rude to others ever. All it took was "the look." 
Respect ... is appreciation of the separateness of the other person, of the ways in which he or she is unique.
-- Annie Gottlieb