my 21 yr. old daughter won't speak to me and says she never will

[firelight]

Change is hard for everyone...for parents and for adult children.  And they are that:  Adults.  I would tell them that and also you want to see them blossom into their adulthood and be happy and independent.  Some day you won't be around and gently pushing them toward this goal will only benefit them in the long run.  You are a woman besides a mom and now that they are grown, you are going to have a life that makes you happy:  and that includes not only your kids, but your BF as well.  They should want the best for you and for their mother to be happy finally.  Whether this BF is good for bad for you (I am not sure what it is they are seeing they don't like other than your time is spread out now), it is YOUR decision to make.  They can cook for themselves and if you feel like having a nice meal together, it will be of a time of your choosing.  I would tell them after lovingly stating my mind:  "I'm sorry you feel this way.  I hope that, in time, we can move past this."  And let it be.  You have been more than generous but I also know that when you're children say hurtful things, it is crushing.  It seems like you ARE trying to break free somewhat though by your decision of even allowing a BF....keep moving foreward.  It seems like the children need a hobby and are focusing all their attention on what you're doing.
I have an aunt who used to control my grandmother (God rest her soul) for many years.  It was OK for my aunt to do whatever she wished, but the controlling and manipulative behavior of my grandmother only worsened as my grandmother aged.  It got to the point where if anyone asked my grandmother a question, my aunt wouldn't even let her answer and grandma was perfectly capable.  For some reason, she allowed this bullying to go on up until the day she passed.  We would all ask grandma how she could stand it but she would just say she couldn't stand fighting with her.  She would receive the reprimandable "wrath" as you put it.  So, please, life is short....we are all on our own journey and in 20 years it's not what we did that we look back on and regret, it's what we didn't do.  Please continue to live your life that makes you happy and let your kids know you want them in your life also and your love for them will never stop, but that it's time to grow up.   You can still be their mom but you're the one who calls the shots.  At this point of their adult life, they might still like to have your support and advice which is fine to an extent, but their controlling behavior toward you will ease when they see you're serious.  It's just a change that will take practice.   With warm thoughts and prayers for you....         

[Sassy]

I have been thinking about you.  Do I understand the current situation, as it is right now?  You have moved in with your boyfriend to his home, but you still maintain your other home for your adult children.  Your DS is 19. Your DD is 21 and works and

I pay for everything. Both of their cell phones, both car insurances ,both colleges , all of the bills in the house ...electric ,water ,heat , food.. No one pays a dollar towards anything.and would continue to do it for them in my home.

And this is your DD's response, to the above situation:

All she kept saying was that I abandoned her and left my 21 and 19 yr. old home alone. I don't belong living here with my Bf. She should not have to spend her money on food ( i stopped that because of how she speaks to me but I still give my son money for whatever food he wants), She should have a meal cooked for her when she comes home from school or work and not have to cook something herself. She should not have to clean a house. To her , these are all things that only a mother does and if she wanted to do these things she would have her own children..

Do I understand correctly?

[Doe]

Out of total desperation I write this , I have two children that I love more than life.

I don't have a lot more to offer other than this:  you can love your children more than life and still set boundaries for yourself. 

You sound victimized by your kids. I get the feeling that you are blaming your daughter for being so nasty but you aren't ready to stand up and not take it anymore.  You can't really blame her if you keep going back for more bullying, can you?

There was a big thread on bullying earlier that might be helpful for you to read.

[Pen]

I'm confused too. Your adult children seem old enough to handle this daily living stuff independently, unless I'm missing something.

Ames, I think you are not sure what you want. It is hard to picture ourselves in a new role (in your case, GF to BF & happily unencumbered by children) and not a hands-on, giving-her-all to her kids mom anymore. You may not be ready to give that up because you just can't visualize what your life will look like. It's kind of like people who have a tough time deciding to retire from their decades-long career even when the job is no longer fulfilling; the rest of us are saying, "Go! Embrace your liberty!" but the retiree can't see past her current job.

Speaking only for myself, having my AC out of the house has been the best thing! Yes, it was oddly sad when they first left; yes, it's been hard dealing with other issues such as DS's sudden marriage & DIL's smothering FOO; but I love being home with DH. I love being able to plan my free time w/o worrying about the kids. I love considering what will make me happy today, tomorrow, & next year.

[sapphire]

I think 21 year olds don't often know what they want. This isn't a bad thing, but it does mean that you, as an adult, should have even less inclination to run your lives around their wishes. They can't live their lives to make you happy, and you can't live yours to make their happy. It doesn't sound like living at all to me. I do think she'll be talking to you again, as hurtful as it seems now, and you need some boundaries for yourself to enjoy your relationship with your boyfriend. 

[ames849]

Wow , Sassy...without saying a word , you really said it all ! You actually made me laugh ....Yes , you understood everything correctly !
When I see it like that it sounds rediculous to me that this could even be happening in my life or that this could all make me feel soooooo bad. Now i feel strong and good but It will only last until she see's me and ignores me or sends me another text or something.....My biggest worry right now is Christmas Eve. I always make that holiday at my home where the kids are and I plan on doing it again but my daughter has informed me that when she see's my Bf she is going to spit in his face because she hates him for taking her family away. He knows that she doesn't like him and for whatever his own issue in life is he actually hides (for lack of a better word) from having to be around her . This makes it all worse because neither one of them can seem to rise above there own issues to create the peace that I so desperatly want. He is really so good to me but is just as much an immature person as she is being. I'm so stuck !!

[Pooh]

I was actually going to type the exact same questions Sassy did to see if I was understanding correctly.  I agree with Pen.  I think you are going to have to decide what you want before making a decision.  You said you didn't want to choose between them.  You need to rethink that statement.  It should be phrased:  I hate to think that my DD would choose not to have a relationship with me despite my happiness.  That's the truth of the situation.  You are allowing her to make you think that it's all on you, when in reality, it's on her. 

You have gone above and beyond providing for them and it's time she realized that she is 21 and needs to be responsible for herself.  The only one that can change your situation is you at this point, because in reading through your posts, you have caved and catered to whatever they wanted.  Even though you moved in with BF, you are still letting her run your life.  You deserve to be happy and not treated so cruelly by DD.  You are the only one that can say what you will tolerate and stop the verbal abuse from her.  If you listened to that for 4 hours, then she knows you will take it.

Here's where I'm going to sound harsh, because I really can't think of a nicer way to say this one.  As far as you trying to plan something nice for the holidays and she says she will spit in his face?  That would have been the final straw for me.  No matter how much I love my kids, that would have pushed me to the point of saying, "No, you will not because with that statement, I am cancelling Christmas with you and having a great time with BF at OUR house.  When you can respect my wishes and act respectively, we will talk again."  Would you have allowed her to do that to a friend of yours?  A neighor?  To me, that is unacceptable behavior period.  BF may be acting immature, but after knowing he was never allowed in your other home, it caused a break-up and that DD would spit in his face on Christmas, can you really blame the guy for refusing to go anywhere near her? 

[Pooh]

And Ames, just so you know, I'm furious on your behalf! Lol.  It irks me to no end to see AC manipulate their parents out of guilt and using their love against them.  And just so you know, I'm dealing with a SD right now that sooo reminds me of your DD in that she takes no responsibility for anything and wants it her way.  So I'm not telling you anything that I am not doing myself right now...laying down the boundaries with acceptable and unacceptable behavior. 

[ames849]

pooh - not harsh at all ..I am really amazed at how genuine you all really are . I am very appriciative of everything that i have read and it really hits home to see it in black and white . Even though I sit in therapy every week and I guess just keep feeling sorry for myself that I don't have that leave it to beaver family that I thought i should have . And yes , I should have canceled Christmas right there on the spot but It is not just for her, I also have my son who is being very normal about this whole thing except he doesnt want to come here to my Bf house. I think he see's it as not being loyal to his own father ( i know crazy but i don't push ).  I have tried to keep everything as consistant as always for them through my transition When i say i moved in ,I didn't even take anything but my close and that happened a little at a time over the last three yr's . So they didn't lose any furniture or anything that they are used to.
I really just want to thank everyone for all of this imput .....really connects to me . This is a very powerful and empowering site and i am extremly thankful for having found you all . Want to come over for Christmas ?...lol I know nothing would happen then !..lol I am just going to be on the big girl pants.

[Doe]

Agreed - this site really lives up to its name!

Just another POV - my sons would have loved to have me move out and leave the fully stocked furnished house for them.  I think most AC that age would see this as a gift!

[Pooh]

Ha ha...I actually did that!  When I met my now DH, I lived an hour and a half away.  I still had the 18 and 19 year old at home.  Ames, my YS gave me a fit when I started dating DH.  He would sull up when he arrived and give him the evil eye the entire time, answer very curtly to anything asked and basically, was a real pain in the hiney to both of us.  I gave him a few times and then finally told him that I didn't care what he thought of me dating, or what he thought of who I was dating.  It was my business.  He didn't have to like him, but he would treat him with respect.  Told him I wouldn't tolerate anything different as it was my decision, not his who I dated.  He didn't like it, but he got it.  Eventually, he gave him a chance and saw he was a great guy, but it took a few months.  We got engaged and we were both driving, every other weekend to see each other (because he had a DD that was just 15 when we got together, and he had her every other weekend).  Eventually, we started hanging out together with her on Saturdays, and she was receptive.

As we were making wedding plans, and plans to move me over after the wedding, I got a great job offer where I was moving to.  Kind of fell in my lap but had a stipulation, they needed me in two weeks.  So we ended up moving in together so I could take the job.  Six months before the wedding.  I left my house and everything there for the boys and continued to pay everything.  19 y/o was already in the process of getting his own apartment and was just waiting a month for one to open up he wanted.  So within a month, 19 y/o moved out.  18 year old was working part time and had enrolled in the Army.  He still had 6 months before he would leave, so he got lonely and asked if he could move over with us.  So he did.  Now, him and DH are great!  They love each other to death.

So yep...I did the whole, leave the AC in one house, move to another.  They both knew the house was going up for sale, and if that happened, they could move to our house.  I also knew this was my future.  I was going to be moving there anyway after the wedding, but by taking this job, it would make my life better in the long wrong.  I also knew that my AC were spreading their own wings and would be leaving soon anyway.  They were both good with it and told me the same thing, we are moving on so you need to take this opportunity.  Plus, they both knew the small town was killing me after the ugly divorce and still having to deal with their Dad and his GF.

And Doe, I think they both had a blast that month! They had friends over and loved it!  Ames, I didn't make them choose between me and DH.  I simply pointed out that it was my life and although I wanted them to be included, it was my choice, not theirs.  Was YS happy about it?  No.  Did I take the chance that he would never speak to me again?  Yes I did.

[Sassy]

I am glad to read you're in therapy. You deserve support.  I also hope you stay around here for a while, coming back whenever you feel the urge.  We have support, and the wisdom of many.  If you can locate some of the past posts of our lovely member elsiehaye, and follow them to the present, you may find her amazing to read about.  She's gone through quite a process with her abusive son.   

You didn't make any mistake at all keeping your love life separate from your children when they were younger.  I think that is good for single parents to do, keep their private love life basically private from their children.  The children are adults now. 

Your daughter gave you a four hour berating the other night?  This is just my humble opinion, but I am going to come out and say it : I believe your daughter is abusing you.   In every true sense of the word abuse.  I think she is exploiting your love for her to intentionally create pain for you, in order that she can use your pain for her gain.  I haven't read one single word that indicates anything other than abuse from her.  You deserve better.  I'm afraid it appears that, right now, your daughter isn't offering better.   If a parent or a boyfriend you loved, said and did the things to you you write your daughter does, I would say the exact same thing. 

Your daughter doesn't want a mother.   Your daughter wants, and feels entitled to, a maid, cook, devoted slave and benefactor.  If she came out and said that to you, it would be easier for you to resist.  So she knows saying the code word "mother" to you, is the key to to hurting you and manipulating you until she gets what she wants from you. 

First it was a Christmas list with some very expressive items on it. Then it was a short text that said : Just in case your feeling extra guilty this yr.

We don't like labels around here.  This isn't a label, or a diagnosis, or anything but just a descriptive word.  One word that kept flashing up in my mind, about the behavior I read about.   Of course we only get to read about just a sliver of a person, and through someone else's eyes.  I do understand the sum total of your 21 year old daughter is far more than the problems you have with her and the ones you wrote about here.   If you looked up this word, and read about it from a few different sources, perhaps you may or may not relate to what's written about it.  The behavior you suffer as described here appears to me to be malignantly Narcissistic.

[Sassy]

daughter has informed me that when she see's my Bf she is going to spit in his face because she hates him for taking her family away.
He knows that she doesn't like him and for whatever his own issue in life is he actually hides (for lack of a better word) from having to be around her . This makes it all worse because neither one of them can seem to rise above there own issues to create the peace that I so desperatly want.

Not wanting to be around someone who aggressively hates you for just existing, is not an issue.  It's a healthy response.  It's not something for him to rise above.  It's his self-respect and self-preservation.  Which are, incidentally, very good ways of preserving love and romance 

The picture you imagine of the beaver cleaver family does not exist. More importantly for you, it is not the key to your peace.  It's a cliche because it's true: The peace that you so desperately want, is not going to come from anywhere but inside yourself.    It will take time, and peace does come and go.  The great news is because you have so many signs of peace now, in increments (such as, when you have distance from exploitive and abusive behavior), I actually think you are already well are on way to more peace in your life.

[luise.volta]

My take: Sometimes we can get stuck in not wanting someone to be the way they are. When that happens, we can get further stuck in thinking that others can or even want to be different. We can focus on the unfairness, which we can always document. We are 100% right about the wrongness.

However, how others are is about them. How you are is about you. There is choice. By that I mean that you can be a victim or you can choose otherwise. You are an adult and you are not helpless to stop abuse.

In making a choice there needs to be acceptance. If you choose to continue with things the way they are, then complaining is useless because that's the way things are.

It is a fact that some of us accept being victims. We don't want to be but we let it happen and continue. When that is the case...no one can help us because our emancipation lies in our own hands.

[Doe]

our emancipation lies in our own hands.

Luise, start printing this statement as a bumper sticker.  You would make millions!