The Talk

[Pooh]

I get you and the two situations you presented and understand what your saying.  Let's take an instance of what I have dealt with and see if it makes sense to why I believe this way.

Os and I had a close relationship.  It was based on mutual respect.  I had to be the disciplinarian in my Son's lives because their Dad wasn't.  I was at every sporting event imaginable, sat down every night and did homework with them, not going to bore you with a long list, but you get what I'm saying.  They knew they were loved and cared for and I was thanked a gazillion times by OS for being a good Mom.  I know I'm not perfect, but you will just have to believe we had a very close relationship.

Now, Ex does his thing when OS is 18 and starting his first year of College, still living with me.  OS was very comforting and supportive of me, and angry at Ex over the GF and his walking out.  I still did what a good Mom would do.  Encouraged him to speak to his Dad and to remember that it wasn't about him, but between his Dad and me.  Took a couple of months to get him to a point where he would go see his Dad.    After he started visiting him, his attitude started changing towards me.  He was withdrawing.  Our relationship changed drastically over the next few weeks.  When I would ask him what was wrong, he finally started asking questions of me.  Is it true you have been having an affair for years with XXXXX?  Is it true that you are suing Dad for everything and alamoney to the point he can't even buy food?  Is it true that for years you would tell him you hated him when we were not around?  Is it true you hated him so badly that you told him not to come to our games?

It was that bad.  There was not one thing his Dad was telling him that was true.  None of it.  His Father was trying to justify what he did to his Son and make himself out to be the victim.  I denied it all and answered his questions but my Ex was constantly telling him all of this, all the way through our divorce and after.  My approach was not to lie to him, but not to drag him into the middle.  His Father's approach was to lie through his teeth and make me look bad so he could be the victim.  He had lied to him so well, that every thing I ever did to protect them from their Father's uncaring, selfish ways, backfired and made sense when my Ex explained it was my doing why he didn't do this, didn't do that.

Was that because my OS and I didn't have a close relationship?  No, it was because here was a man now, that had been starved for his Father's attention and affection as a boy, that was now hearing from this man everything he wanted to hear his entire life.  That his Father truly loved him and wanted to be there for him, but his Mother stopped it. 

Now, I didn't even bring DIL into the picture but she was there too, telling my OS that "See, I told you your Mother was this way.  I told you she has treated me badly and now here's proof that she's been doing it the entire time to your Dad."  And on and on.  Yes, during the questionings by my Son, she was there, smirking and putting her two-cents in.

So, in my situation, I can honestly say we had a close relationship and it is totally possible for someone or multiple someones to break it.  Do I think it is totally over?  No, I don't...but that's because I have let go of him and realized that until he decides later in life, that Dad is full of it, I will not put him in that tug-of-war between parents, nor his wife.  He has to come to these realizations on his own, and then maybe I will agree we have only been stretched.  He may never come to those realizations and then the relationship will remain broken.

And it's ok that we don't have the same opinions on this.  I just know it's possible, in my world.  It's not been possible in yours.  That's why we are all unique.

[pam1]

Pooh, that sounds like serious parental alienation to me.  I understand what you're saying about DILs involvement in that time but I don't think she has the power to do something like that, she definitely aided and abetted though. 

[Pooh]

After dealing with OS, DIL, SD, Ex. ExMIL and Mother of GC, I now believe anything is possible when any title, if you have an agenda.

[Sassy]

What a selfish man who would steal from his own son.   He took away his son's true parent relationship and replaced it with a false one merely because it suited his ego.  I think that might qualify as true evil.   I'm so sorry for what Ex did to OS, and I'm so, so sorry for what he did to you, Pooh.

[Pooh]

Thanks Sassy.  I am a firm believer in Karma, and I think someday, it will bite him and next time, I will not be the one picking up the pieces for him. 

[momof2]

Pooh- I had a relationship like that with my own mother for quite a long time. When my parents divorced (neither of the were ever involved in any thing I did...kudos to you) it took a toll on the relationship with my mom. When you said

OS was very comforting and supportive of me

it brought a flash of memories I had with my own mother. (Please note that this is my own story and I am in no way telling you that you did something wrong.)

My DM and I stopped talking to one another because her need to be consoled and comforted during their divorce was too much on me and I began to hate her. Here I was, 14 years old, and neither one of my parents could give a living hoot about how I was feeling because they were so absorbed in their own emotions. However, it was my DM's emotional neediness that put me over the edge with her. She leaned on me way too much and cried and all that jazz. My DAD on the other hand just left me alone about it. They were both too busy worrying about themselves, but the fact that I was having to be the strong one for my own mom when I was going through this divorce too, made me really angry. My world had completely changed and I was pretty much on my own from that time on.

BUT.....We are fine now. It did take quite a few years to have a relationship with her, tho. I don't think it is over for you and your son, he is just going to need a lot of time. I'm sure going to college during this divorce was alot harder on him that you even realized. His father could probably see that vulnerability in him and took advantage of it. He may have even felt like you wouldn't talk to him about it all (and his dad obviously was) and may not have realized that you were trying to keep him out of the tug or war with his DAD. How long has it been?

[Pooh]

I totally believe you because I have friends that have done that to their kids.  They have treated their Sons like fill-in male companionship and the daughters have become the Mothers.  I'm sorry you were made to feel that way.  That couldn't have been easy for you.

When I say comforting and supportive, he would come in after class some nights and sit down, ask how my day was and such for a few minutes.  He would bring a movie in every couple of weeks that he knew I wanted to see and drop it on the table with a note that said, knew you wanted to see this.  Just small stuff that showed he cared that I was hurting.  Yes, I know it was very hard on both of them, as YS had 3 months until he graduated high school.  OS was working, going to school and I know, dating DIL and worried about me too let along his own relationship with his Father.  They had to be as stressed as I was. 

I have been divorced for 3 1/2 years. 

[Sassy]

Pooh, I'm sure you're aware of this, but another thing about lying liars who lie (credit to Al Franken), is, they lie.  Not just about pooh bears, but about OSs too.   Whether its called karma or just the natural progression of the life of a liar, OS will catch Ex in lies that OS knows for a fact aren't true.  Sooner or later.  Lies to or about DIL, YS or OS himself.   I predict there will be an AHA moment, when OS hears the lies about himself fall from his dad's lips. Something will click or start to turn.  Pieces that didn't quite make sense before, or were ascribed to must be a fuzzy detail that was misunderstood, will get towards their place.  The more Ex lies with impunity, the braver he gets with the next lie.  Tick tick boom.   

[Pooh]

I believe that but have never heard of lying liars who lie....Lol.  That's good. 

[luise.volta]

All of that makes my impasse with my eldest son seem pretty tame. He just ordered a sweet, smart, beautiful, wonderful mother and got me by mistake.

Kirk, in turn probably didn't put in an order and just assumed I would be OK. However, he thinks I am sweet, smart, beautiful and wonderful! LOL!

[tiredmom]

FWIW,  both our parents gave us grief at times, but my husband and I never allowed that to come in between our marriage.  We got married when we were older, maybe that was the difference.  We were already far away from the parents and had no doubts about how their opinions affected our lives.
I think it's the boundaries thing again.  You protect  your home and family from toxic people and situations.

I could not agree more. I have been in both roles myself and know for a fact that each is painful and life altering. Memories and scars of being the DIL to an overbearing and drama inducing MIL (even though she meant well in her own way) are what has molded the MIL I have tried to be to both DS's first and second wives. With the first DIL it was never her that caused the issues or was jealous of me. It was DS. He was never comfortable with how close I was to his first wife and acted as if he felt threatened by our ability to communicate. The one he's with now gives the impression that she'd be happier if DS's life started with her. A mother and son by a first marriage is not something she is willing to accept into "their family".

Through the years I have tried to keep a sense of humor rather than climb the walls! LOL I have joked that had I known what was to come I would have simply bought a puppy back in 1975!!   


Momof2 I have much respect for the way you have handled your situation. I would trade my DIL in for one like you in a heartbeat!!   

tm

tm

[Pen]

Pooh, whenever I read about your XDH & DIL's influencing your DS I feel sad for you & your kids. Your story is similar to mine with my DF & SM. DF felt very angry about how we felt about the way he'd treated my mom and us kids, so when he remarried he changed history as he presented the story to SM. She used it as an excuse to cut me and my sib off, which she wanted to do anyway, and has influenced how her AC/GC/friends view us as well. There is nothing I can do to make it right, since everything I do is filtered through their incorrect lenses now.

I agree with Sassy that karma will catch up and eventually your OS will see through it; not sure there's time for my DF, though (he's very old.) My SM's shenanigans have already been spotted by her SIL, so perhaps there's hope there.

[tiredmom]

"This has been debated here before and it all boils down to everyone suffers.  There is no DIL suffers more, MIL suffers more...everyone suffers.  I can say that because I have been on both sides."

This was the quote I was trying to reply to earlier   

[luise.volta]

I loved that about the puppy! When I made a remark to my grown sons about my dogs meaning so much to me that they were like "family"...they joked with me that they had no idea they would ever be so easy to replace. And I said..."Hey, if it doesn't work out, I can return them to the shelter! Great improvement! 

[Pooh]

That and you never have to listen to "What's for dinner?" followed by a groan......