The Talk

[pam1]

Personally, I don't think a DIL can break a *strong* relationship between her DH and MIL.  She can stretch it, but not break it.  I think that the relationship can't have been too strong to begin with, if it's that fragile.

Do you have an hour for me to tell you the story of how this can happen?

I'd be interested to hear, can you start a new thread?  You provide a unique take on situations and I then realize I don't know much about yours.  Please do

[Doe]

Oh Pam, you caught me! 
I've started to tell this before but never hit the post button.  I'll do that sometime soon.

[pam1]

I was speaking from my own experience & I understand everyone has their own perception. I should have made it more personal and less of a general statement.

Just for the record, I have experienced a broken marriage due to an overbearing MIL. It was very painful and left me in a shambles. But now I know the marriage wasn't strong to begin with - if my XDH could be so easily swayed by his DM, there wasn't a great foundation to build on anyway although I was madly in love. Speaking of financial security, I took a major hit when I divorced...XDH & his FOO were extremely wealthy & I took nothing, not even the engagement "boulder." Left all my stuff, got out & spent the next few years struggling to rebuild a life. Even when I'd get the big Christmas letter from XSIL detailing the FOO's ski trips in Europe or summers at the lake house, I was glad to be out of it. I'm grateful now that it turned out the way it did, because I married a great, supportive guy & have two wonderful AC.

The pain of my bad marriage and subsequent divorce in no way equals how I feel about being in last place now with DS/DIL or in threat of a cutoff if I make one misstep or stand up for better treatment. Losing access to a child, even an adult child, is immense for me. My now-DH would stand up for me against all comers, so no worries there. In my life, there's no risk in standing up to now-MIL (not that I would) but extraordinary risk in standing up to DIL. But that's just how it is for me.

I understand where you're coming from, Pen.  But I think it's a catch 22 -- if you don't stand up for yourself there is only a slim chance things will get better with DS and a *great* chance your self esteem and self worth will get a lot worse.  Looking at it as an outsider I think you have more on the losing side by being quiet.

I think you need to put yourself first in some of these situations.  And I think you might be surprised, Pen.  People take note of the strong, they recognize it in a person and even if they don't agree with them, they *do* respect them.

[pam1]

Oh Pam, you caught me! 
I've started to tell this before but never hit the post button.  I'll do that sometime soon.

I'm going to hold you to it!  ***foot tapping*** 

[Pen]

Oh Scoop 

Not having access is different than a "broken" relationship...if you were referring to my post, wink wink.

DS & I have always been fine. He calls, texts, visits & invites us to meet up when DIL is otherwise engaged. DH & I rarely instigate a meet up. DIL's FOO is overbearing, bossy and belittling, but they are inked in solid on DIL's (& therefore DS's) social calendar while mellow DH & I go about our business grateful for dribs and drabs. We defend DS/DIL's marriage and support it, so it would never come down to a choice for DS between his DW & his FOO. (I'm not sure DIL knows that we refused to dump on DIL with DS when he came here angry & frustrated by DIL's treatment of us. We told him she was his priority now & he had to work it out with her. I understood that might have been the last time I saw my DS, but it was the honorable thing to do.)

I guess DH & I should have been more forceful in promoting our FOO from the start, but it's not our style. We thought we'd be appreciated more for backing off. Oops! Our loss, DIL's FOO's gain. I'm wiser now, but alas have no more sons, lol.

[Pooh]

Ha ha ha...Doe got caught....Doe got caught....   

[Scoop]

Pen, I didn't mean you specifically.  Your DIL continues to baffle me.

However, your post does illustrate my example.  Because your relationship with your DS is strong, you still have one.  No matter how hard your DIL has tried, she hasn't broken it completely.  She's stretched it, certainly, and (I believe) maliciously.  However, your DS hasn't thrown in the towel and neither, it seems, have you.  That speaks of a strong relationship.

I just wanted to point out (again) that it's the DH / DS who has the burden to maintain or even "fix" the relationship with his P's.  Sassy, you said you hoped that MIL wouldn't have the power to interfere in your relationship with DH, well, it would be up to your DH to NOT give her that power.  Just like it's up to the DS to not give the power to his wife, to keep him from his FOO.

[Pooh]

It's very hard to take our personal situation out these conversations because we all rely on our personal experience to generate our feelings about things sometimes.  I catch myself all the time going, "Ok, we are just having a conversation, it's not personal to my situation."

So I have to ask sincerely Scoop, do you not believe outside influences can sway someone's thought pattern?  When I read your statement, all I could think of was the teenager that had good parents, was taught morals and ethics, right and wrong, had never been a problem but all of a sudden starts hanging out with a really bad crowd at school and their attitude changes completely.  They start having problems at school, talking back to their parents, drop out of sports and so on why the parents are scratching their head and going, "Where did I go wrong?"

Do I think the ultimate responsibility lies with the teenager?  Sure, but I do believe outside influences can play a huge role in someone's way of thinking and acting.

[momof2]

Wow! Lots of talk on this post! I am happy to see all the communication. I am so glad that we all have a place to run to and speak out. Love you each!

[Pooh]

That's why we love it here and everyone here!  We get into these conversations that bring up really good points and I love hearing everyone's take on it.

Glad to have you hear mom.

[Sassy]

  Sassy, you said you hoped that MIL wouldn't have the power to interfere in your relationship with DH, well, it would be up to your DH to NOT give her that power.

I guess it's not MIL herself, but my inability to get along with her.  That doesn't seem based on him giving her power.  At this point our lack of contact with her, is what I'm afraid will seep in and undermine the foundation of our love.  I'm burdened with the knowledge that love for one's parents runs deep, as it should.  The heart wants what the heart wants.  My DH is a very loving person. I know he loves her, and I know he is hurt by her absence from our lives.  I don't know how much power he gives, or even has over, either of those.

He's always maintained firm boundaries with her, more than I did when we were first getting serious.  He was puzzled why I answered her every call or wrote back to her every text.  He didn't do that.  He gave when he could when he could, and when he couldn't or didn't feel right doing it, he didn't.   He had more to give her before he met me.  He's the one who immediately made the decision not to talk to her as long as all she wanted to talk about was how he shouldn't be married to me.  There's action.  And there's feelings.  It's great when our actions can match our feelings.  DH feels love for MIL, but it is not evident in his action against her.

I don't think it's fear DH would give MIL a power over us.   It's that a resentment, or doubt, that defies logical thought ("I am the one who decided not to listen to my mom say things that hurt me") will take hold and grow.  I keep imagining seeds and weeds and ivy working in and breaking up structure.  I know that every marriage is a garden to be ever tended.  It's sad, downright odd, that we both love the same beautiful man, and yet want such different things for him. 

[Pooh]

I can honestly say I had the same guilt every time me and my Ex MIL would have an argument.  I know it had to be hard on my Ex when I wouldn't want to talk to her.  I tried very hard to not let her interfere with our marriage and to remember that it wasn't Ex's fault she was how she was.  But if I'm honest, there was always a gnawing resentment towards Ex every time he used the words, "You know how she is".  Yes, I knew how she was but at the same time, I wanted him to tell her to stop it, but at the same time, I didn't want him to resent me if their relationship fell apart.  So no matter how strong we were together (in the beginning), MIL's actions did reflect into our marriage.  That's why I know from both sides, that an outside influence, no matter if that's MIL or DIL can have an impact on another relationship.  Moreso, if that's their goal.

[amflautist]

DS & I have always been fine. He calls, texts, visits & invites us to meet up when DIL is otherwise engaged. DH & I rarely instigate a meet up. DIL's FOO is overbearing, bossy and belittling, but they are inked in solid on DIL's (& therefore DS's) social calendar while mellow DH & I go about our business grateful for dribs and drabs. We defend DS/DIL's marriage and support it, so it would never come down to a choice for DS between his DW & his FOO. (I'm not sure DIL knows that we refused to dump on DIL with DS when he came here angry & frustrated by DIL's treatment of us. We told him she was his priority now & he had to work it out with her. I understood that might have been the last time I saw my DS, but it was the honorable thing to do.)

I guess DH & I should have been more forceful in promoting our FOO from the start, but it's not our style. We thought we'd be appreciated more for backing off. Oops! Our loss, DIL's FOO's gain. I'm wiser now, but alas have no more sons, lol.

Pen, you seem to have changed in this post.  Previously I have always heard that you thought it best to not rock the boat, to not discuss with DS the unequal treatment you receive.  I have taken a lot of cues from you, because my situation with DS is almost the same as yours.  Are you rethinking your hands-off approach?

[jdtm]

Pen, you seem to have changed in this post.  Previously I have always heard that you thought it best to not rock the boat, to not discuss with DS the unequal treatment you receive.  I have taken a lot of cues from you, because my situation with DS is almost the same as yours.  Are you rethinking your hands-off approach?

Wow - may I comment on the above statement.  My husband and I have been married over 40 years.  About the third year into our marriage, my father-in-law approached me and told me that "we'd all be a lot better off if I would leave my husband and son - just leave".  I was floored and to this day I do not know what I did "wrong" (I think it was because I had started to re-attend church; my FIL felt church people were hypocites and self-righteous, but I really don't know).  Anyway, I never told my husband of this instance until a few years ago.  At every family event for over three decades, I just made sure that I was seated near to my FIL or that I was never alone with him.  As I said this went on for decades.  I'm assuming no one else knew of this instance (and there was never another).

A couple of years ago, my FIL passed away.  Within a month or two, my sister-in-law began where my FIL left off.  I was told "everyone in this family hates you - just leave and never return".  This time, I told my husband.  He was so upset and did have a discussion with his mother.  Of course, she is elderly and really cannot influence the family any more.  We are now partially estranged from his two sisters - would this have happened if I had kept my mouth shut?  Both our sons now have nothing to do with their cousins or aunts.  Luckily, we still have good contact with our nieces and nephews.

So - the big question - do we "suck it up" and hope everything works out?  That didn't work. Do we tell our husband how we are being mistreated?  That didn't work either.  I guess what I wonder most is "did my husband's family berate and ridicule me behind my back for approximately 40 years"?  I really thought that I had fit in.  I considered myself a kind and generous DIL, SIL and Aunt.  Was I really so hated for over 40 years?  I really don't know.  And I really don't know if there is a "correct" way to handle a family member who dislikes you. 

[Scoop]

Pooh - I do believe that outside influences can sway someone, but I don't believe it can change them completely (okay - drugs & alcohol yes).

I can only take from my situation and the situations I've seen.

Case 1 - My SisIL is a pill.  She's COMPLETELY different from our family.  She could easily have pulled DB away from us.  BUT my DM, DF and I all tried really hard to accommodate her.  We knew that she didn't like us and we didn't like her, but if we were civil/friendly, she would have no reason to cut us off and THUS we could maintain a relationship with DB & the DN's.  It was a small sacrifice to make in the long run.  And yes, it did and does involve holding our tongues and walking on eggshells.  My DM & DB have a strong relationship.  I'm sure he calls her more when SisIL is not around, and he does come visit alone.  But no, they do not have a close relationship like *I* do with my Mom.  So their relationship is stretched, but not broken.

Case 2 - My DH and MIL don't have an adult relationship.  She treats him like an unruly teenager and he stonewalls her.  For a long time, their relationship seemed better, because *I* was making more of an effort, nagging him to return her calls, chatting with her, buying their presents, making plans to keep the visits "fair".  Well, when I pulled back, neither of them stepped in and thus, their relationship is very distant.  And really, if I *wanted* to, it would not be hard to break it.  But that's because it's not strong.  It's not based on reality.  She has her image in her head of who he is and that's that.  She doesn't know him as an adult.  And every time she rags on him for some stupid thing, she pushes him further away.

So maybe I can see your point that I could break their relationship, but I still maintain that if it was strong, I couldn't.  He's not whipped, he stands up to me all the time and he could very easily have a better relationship with his P's.  I've never said "no" when he suggests a visit.  I've never so much as clucked my tongue when they call.