Adult children as bullies?

[Lisa]

just have a quick minute before having to leave but will read and post more later.  On the issue of divorce, we have been married for 35 yrs and our son acts like he wishes we hadn't.  I know, it does not make sense.  He has told his Dad that he has his head so far up my backside he cannot even make a decision for himself.  That is not true.  We have a great marriage with two other twin children who adore and respect us.  Sometimes these situations just don't make sense but it does not make it any less emotionally difficult to deal with.  You give these babies love, raise them, then they turn around and treat you like poop, all for no apparent reason. 

[Ruth]

TwinsMom.  I am very very sorry.  What I suspect is that something is going with your girls that isn't what you imagine.  Your mind maybe latches onto the most logical thing; the depression and the screwed up marriage/divorce.   I say that because over the years I've found myself wrong over and over in regard to what others think or feel.  I also went through a terrible 10 year depression as I've posted here before.  Until you've dealt with that illness, there's no way to comprehend how devastating it is to your life.  I felt like I was coming out of a dark closet and had been in a long sleep or something.  I couldn't believe how disordered things were, like closets and kitchen cabinets.  I'm by nature neat and clean.  When I'm dropping back into depression the house gets really dirty, and that's a red flag for me to get a handle on it.  I lost track of a lot of life during those years.  Lots of the dots still aren't connected.  My DD and I have always had a very close relationship, but during the depression it was just impossible to maintain a healthy relationship with anyone and she lived her own life then.  We were distant, not estranged but definitely distant. 

This was ideas I was hoping to get from my question on this post.   Now you didn't remarry and did everything I thought was perfect which would keep your girls on the right track.  From my perspective, I'd encourage you to stand up tall and be proud of yourself.  You should get sick and tired of crap from them.   You really did a lot of fine things for your offspring.  And you did it against difficult odds.  Next opportunity you get, remind them of that and ask them who would have picked up the slack if you'd chosen to live your own life and let them fend for themselves.  Time will tell.

[elizabeth]

Ewww, Lisa, not a very nice way to be spoken to by your AC!
And I know how that feels. Its horrible being yelled at, and worse, as I was, actually the victim of physical abuse from my age 17 DD.

Ruth, good words for us all.

I have heard that the pain children experience from a divorce is nearly always eventually blamed upon the mother, not the dad, no matter what the sob may have done. Its wearying isn't it?

I was divorced and one DD had nothing but a loving attitude toward everyone always.

The other DD was, I think, and in line with this thread, a perfect bully for many years. I don't know if she still is that way, as we have email contact for about 15 years, except for one short two hour visit. She wrote and told me a few years ago that she was diagnosed with Borderline PD. Its odd but when I think of her I remember a dear blond fuzzy girl, a bit chubby, lovely green eyes and ready to take on the world with a lot of courage. Somehow the little remembered girl became a very different adult, partly I think because of several years in an addiction to hard drugs.

When the recovery from drugs and alcohol came to her, there were constant onslaughts of venom and anger hurled at me. I left for a few years to try to 'get a life' as she said I needed. But when I came back it was in many ways worse, for then I was just used for money (which I didn't have much of) and forbidden to spend any awake time with my GS: I was allowed to come over after he was put to bed to 'babysit' while DD went out on the town to chase away her blues. After a few years of that, I left again.

I admit I didn't know then and don't know now, how to deal with bullies, or personality disorders. It seems useless to try. There are other members of my family who are like this. My mom had her own mother in tears most of the time, and when I was at my most vulnerable as an adult she was absolutely cruel. Her method was like my ex-husbands which was:  if anyone is nice and loving or when someone is hurting its the oportune situation to either take advantage of them or to attack. This works to wear a person down if they can't get away.

I was interested in what you had to say about how to ask Bullies questions, I think it would work in many situations, like at work, or if you have to deal with someone in a business or to get something accomplished and you have no recourse but to deal with that person. But I agree with some other posts here wherein I think that its more difficult to do that where the relationship is more attached, like with a AC who is angry and insulting a lot of the time. The detachment required to put into practice the anti-bullie technique isn't so easy then, and thoughts about how to speak properly to someone you actually love deeply who is always looking to either attack or take advantage is almost impossible to achieve. I say that because I really believe that I tried everything within my capacity to work things out with my DD before I moved on.

Today we have an email relationship, which sometimes becomes sparse. I let that happen when there is not any mail coming to me and then I usually wait a month before I write to say hi. If I send a gift I get a lot of positive affirmation from her, because she wants more. If I send no gifts the emails drop off. So the last few years I have sent no gifts, just emails and cards and letters.

My grandson is practically a stranger to me. I have lost hope of ever having any relationship with him at all. We used to have some emails but usually only if I sent something to him. In one way I can understand that, as I am literally out of sight, out of mind, so sending something concrete is a way to remind them they do have a Mom or Grandmother who loves them. But in another it sometimes hurts because my own birthday has not been remembered even by email!

Anyway, a lot said, perhaps too much, but Sunshine, I read your post with interest because I would like to learn how to ask questions and not set myself up for verbal abuse, and maybe these are some sound rules that could help me in that area.

[Ruth]

Much love and hugs to you Elizabeth.  This is a cup of suffering I'm sorry you've had to drink to the full.  The best medicine is to reach out and be a help and encouragement to others.  It's the way we heal I think.

[Pen]

Dear Ruth, that's been proven here over and over again. You are all the most important part of my healing, for sure.

[elizabeth]

Thank you Ruth, I think so too.

This is a really good place to be able to come to; the WWU site is amazingly helpful.

Reading comments on new threads and everyone's experiences helps to make sense of a lot of the suffering we go through, and it makes sense of a lot of the things we do by instinct that at times make us wonder.

Its really a good thing this site was started and kept going, what an act of love it all is.

yes, we have something to share and our experiences give us wisdom and compassion.

[Lisa]

I just cannot believe there are so many women out there experiencing this kind of pain.  Twinsmom, I am just so very sorry you're having to go through this.  Cannot imagine what in the world goes wrong; you try to logically figure out the past, playing it over and over in your mind, and at the end of the day, they don't want our love or at least in my case, nothing to do with me or his Dad.  I feel the same as you about my GS; he is just 3 yrs old and not sure if he will ever know us.  Not how we envisioned our lives at this point.  Reaching out to you all as we are all in a club nobody wants to belong to so we should support one another.

[Begonia]

This thread is very valuable.  It takes things from the helpless stage to the stage of being able to feel empowered...even if that means you draw the line with abusive and bullying behavior. My very first post here was "Strength in Numbers."  I truly believe women can change the world. And this website is a message to the world, Wise Women.  We are clued in now and when one woman gets clued in it does not take long for a thousand women to get clued in.  It is exponential.  Luise, I thank you with a million hugs. 

This video is very powerful because it relates to how we can stop bullying at a young age.  Norway has a completely different take on things than traditional American school systems.  I think you will enjoy watching it..it gives my heart a lift every time I see it. 

http://www.maxconflictmanagement.com/bullying-harassment/anti-bullying-in-norway

[Begonia]

Sorry the above link no longer works, but here is another link to the same movie that does. 
http://archive.teachfind.com/ttv/www.teachers.tv/videos/norway-anti-bullying.html

[Keys Girl]

Bully, yup, had one, she's now my DIL, haven't seen her in some time.......loving it.

My DIL is a huge bully, she's determined to make everyone, (her husband, family, anyone else) behave exactly and precisely as she wants them to.   I am happy to be away from her and my DS, as he has now become her accomplice.

Bullies are looking to dominate and exert their power.  I've seen many types of bullies over the years (mostly in the workplace) and my experience in that they never think there is anything wrong with them, only that the people who are fighting to not submit to their demands are the ones with a problem.

I'm finding that as I get older and realize the light at the end of the tunnel that I see once in a while is not an oncoming train but the light of the big stage where the angels sing, I'm out of patience for bullies and will do whatever I have to to get away from them and enjoy my life without someone trying to have me "under their thumb".  They'll find someone else to exert their will and dominance on, soon enough.  Every once in a while I feel sorry for my son being married to her, but who knows she may have "converted" him to bully status as well.

There is a lot of media coverage of young people committing suicide after being bullied, and hopefully the "bullied by family members" cause will get some attention as time goes by.  People are very reluctant to admit family members are being hurtful to them, but as we get older, if we don't do something about it, the bullying (which is emotional abuse) will evolve to other types of elder abuse. 

Robert Frost wrote "Home is the place where, when you have to go there, they have to take you in". I think the word home is also meant to represent family.   I don't think we are living in a Norman Rockwell or Robert Frost world anymore and those customs, values and traditions have fallen by the wayside.  It's heartbreaking to admit to yourself that a son or daughter may be bullying you, but if you do then I think it's very important to protect yourself emotionally and financially against any further bullying.  It won't stop, it will get worse.

[twinsmom]

Ruth:   thank you for the kind words.  You are right about what a depression can do to your life and before you know it a few years have gone by.  I sought counseling immediately, invited my girls, who refused, but I kept going.  Even my counselor said  I will never understand my DDs reaction until they want me to.  I know I was guilty of pushing them away when they tried to help; I was just so angry at them, and I can't even tell you why.  I tried so hard to apologize for that; but they want nothing to do with the apologies.   It feels like my DDs want me to stay in that dark hole  as though i somehow got what I deserve?  Anyways, I work every day  on thinking good thoughts and letting the anger go and each day I make just a little more progress.  I don't believe my kind hearted DDs changed; I think they saw something happen with mom and it scared them so they just stay away.  How sad for them; there just is not enough love in this world that any of us should discard it like it was rubbish..

[Sassy]

I wanted to look up "bullying" because in my mind, it was about power.  Someone has to have a certain power over the person they are bullying, for it to be bullying.  In some cases the Adult Children do have social power, in terms of access to the grandchildren.    Adult children areoften  given the power by their parents.  I wondered, what would happen to the bully, if the target no longer viewed the bully as having power over them.  What I found was interesting.

The wikipedia page on Bullying has a section called "Characteristics of targets of chronic bullying."  The details are interesting enough to be worth looking at.   It says the target's response (submissiveness) is just as essential as the bully being a bully, for a bullying cycle to continue.  If the target changes the way they respond to the bully, the cycle will end. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

The yes/no questions are a good idea.   Keep in mind that "I don't know" and "Whatever you want" and "I haven't thought about it yet" are possible answers besides yes/no.  As is saying yes one day and changing the answer to no the next.

[LadyD]

KeysGirl:

Wise words.  Your experience with you DIL and DS is ditto for me.  I love this forum, it really helps put things in perspective, and the advice is always so helpful! 

It's hard to believe there are so many people that are in similar situations with their AC.  So sad....what is this world coming to?

SunShine - I agree we need to reflect on what we need to do to back away from the bullies in our lives, because no one deserves that treatment from anyone, whether we are young or old.  Shame on those that bully....what a pathetic sign of weakness.

[Keys Girl]

I wanted to look up "bullying" because in my mind, it was about power.  Someone has to have a certain power over the person they are bullying, for it to be bullying.  In some cases the Adult Children do have social power, in terms of access to the grandchildren.    Adult children areoften  given the power by their parents.  I wondered, what would happen to the bully, if the target no longer viewed the bully as having power over them.  What I found was interesting.

The wikipedia page on Bullying has a section called "Characteristics of targets of chronic bullying."  The details are interesting enough to be worth looking at.   It says the target's response (submissiveness) is just as essential as the bully being a bully, for a bullying cycle to continue.  If the target changes the way they respond to the bully, the cycle will end. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying

The yes/no questions are a good idea.   Keep in mind that "I don't know" and "Whatever you want" and "I haven't thought about it yet" are possible answers besides yes/no.  As is saying yes one day and changing the answer to no the next.

This doesn't sound right to me, if you submit to a bully in the early stages, the bully will only increase his/her aggression in order to keep you submissive, and will often escalate the aggression to an extreme degree (that's why when a woman leaves a battering spouse, her first few days away from the bully/aggressor are often the most dangerous, the bully moves to an extreme to keep her under control, even if it means taking her life).

"I don't know", "Whatever you want" are poor responses to me, they indicate passivity and as for "saying yes one day and changing the answer to no the next" that's just someone who is "flip flopping", not exactly a strong stance.

kickbully.com is a website that is devoted to bullying (in the workplace), but it has some interesting background info about bullies. 

Adult children has a lot more power than just being able to keep the grandchildren away (which is cruel), but in this society the "next of kin", not necessarily the "next of close to me" are consulted and wield a lot of power.  Just look look at the wills that have been contested by children because all the assets were left to a cat or dog.  If these adult children didn't have any power, so self respecting lawyer would take on those cases.

Adult children have a lot more advantages than workplace bullies, which many use to further their goal of getting more money, or "punishing" their parents for a long held resentment.

It's been happening for a lot time, even the Smothers Brothers used to argue "Mom always loved you best", and that's probably going back 30 years or so.

I don't think I've seen a post from Luise for a few days, I hope she's ok.

[Begonia]

I do believe bullying is generational, like domestic abuse.  In my case my mother was very passive and my father was very aggressive.  I learned early on which one had more power and blamed my mother at an early age for everything.  In later years, I realize that my mother's passive and manipulative ways contributed just as much to the caustic environment. Sassy's post and link points to this also. 

My dad was blunt, never had to wonder what he was thinking; my mother would never say what she wanted.  It made me crazy.  I went the way of my father until I was 25 when he dropped dead of a heart attack at 48.  I realized that being a bully was a sure way to go to an early grave.  I made conflict resolution and wellness my life work, but thwarted that by marrying a bully...worse than my father. I found myself behaving in ways like my mother (crying in the closet, depressed, etc.)  So I modeled the very thing I was trying to eliminate from our family legacy. 

Flash forward to all the other things that happen to swath us in guilt: divorce; step children vs birth children; living an independent life; the addition of DIL and SIL and OP.  I began to shrink into the background and allowed the bad treatment from my AC..that they had carefully noted as their SF bullied all of us around.  Bullies get their way, but sometimes passive people are way more undermining..all those hidden agendas. 

Now I am balanced on the tightrope of good behavior and disassociation from both passive and bullying tendencies.  A completely new role that nobody has ever modeled for me.  Completely new ground with my FOO.  It occurs to me that by disengaging with their bad behavior I am sending a great message to GC that there is a way to walk that tightrope without falling into the swamp.  I am not going to demand anything (bullying) and I am not going to accept bad behavior (passive).   For me, something I have to guard against is withdrawing...which both my parents did in unhealthy ways.  My dad would cuss and stomp around (and yes, he was physically abusive) and then go to the barn (we lived on a farm).  My mother would find a safe place to hide out and in a few hours she would pretend nothing every happened. 

One of the saddest things is that I saw my 14 yr old GD bully her mother...really bad.   It broke my heart and I think is one of the reasons why my daughter has withdrawn...she was so totally embarrassed that she could not handle GD (I couldn't either...she was a raging machine). GD stayed here for a week after that and it was a constant battle to have boundaries with her...I know my daughter feels ashamed about that as well.  Anyway,  I just hate to see how this awful behavior has passed down three generations...and all of it directed toward females. 

Thanks for listening to a long post...these issues are so important to look at and become stronger about.