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Adult children as bullies?

Started by SunShine, September 26, 2011, 01:58:45 PM

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SunShine

I'm a newbie here and I'm sorry I don't know all of your stories yet. It's hard to read all the postings, as this is such a large site. It's pretty impressive. I'm sorry if I haven't been able to answer posts people wrote to me, but I did try to read as much as I could and I appreciated the answers. The one common thread I see is that our adult children seem like adult bullies. I'm not sure they only bully us. It's possible they could be doing it at work and with others. I could be wrong. I do  know that I've let people bully me all of my life and now my children are doing it.

Part of the problem is me and how I approach life in my case. However, are any of us ever ready to be bullied? I guess as I read through posts here and there, I thought... our AC are adult bullies and how do we avoid being targets? I guess I'd like to hear tactics on this from others and thought a thread on tactic sharing might be good, as it puts all ideas together in one place.

Maybe there is a place for this. I'm not sure, so let me know if there is and I'm being redundant. I don't want to bore everyone to tears here and perhaps this is too situational, but I think there are some general things that could work in many situations. This isn't a thread about me though. It's just a general thing I thought I'd post to see if some wisdom can shared. So here is something I'll share with you...

My DH and I talked over our issues last night concerning AC.  He said that in business, he's learned to pose questions that get you a yes or no answer, so you aren't left with vagaries.  He told me I'm setting myself up as a target with my AC. He said to combat AC and bullying, I need to ask questions of them differently. He said, don't ask for permission to do something, as you set yourself up for vague answers, AC who stomp away mad, have snit fits, etc.  He said, ask questions of them that demand a yes or no answer, so they have to commit one way or another.

For instance, don't ask AC if you can take a picture of them. That leaves room for them to stomp off or ignore you, if they don't feel like it. Instead say... would you be bothered or not, if I took your picture? That sets them up to say yes or no and you have to accept it. You know where you stand at least. If they say no, then ask the other AC... Can I take a picture of you by yourself near the river or not? Another example would be... Do you want me to stay at a hotel when visiting or not? Do you want me to help you cook or not? They then have to say yes or no and you say... okay.

However, don't ask a question if you don't want to do something, only if you want an answer that leaves nothing to the imagination and then say... okay. Don't ask a question if you don't want a no as the answer or don't want to know the answer. I'm not sure if the tactic DH and I thought up is a good one and you can tell me if you think it would or wouldn't work. I guess it's situational. I'm not sure what DH and I talked about relates to others.

We also talked about calling out AC on their conditional issues. You can only see grand kids if you babysit. I'd say to them... Can I only see the grand kids if I babysit or can I see them at other times too? That makes them hear themselves and how they sound to you. If they say... you can only see them if you babysit, say... that doesn't seem right to me. Call them out on bad behavior. Ask... Am I the only relative who can't be on your facebook page or are other relatives not allowed on either?

So what are some of your tactics in dealing with AC's who bully, have tantrums and put conditions on you? How do you take back control and get them to stop the conditional issues, bullying and vague answers? I wanted to share techniques for dealing with AC. Perhaps this was something once discussed on here. Perhaps you think this is too situational. I'm new, so I don't know, but I'd love to hear general tactics.

It's hard to read through hundreds of posts searching for ideas. What are some of your tactics for getting control back over your life concerning AC? I know some things I learned on here is to live your own life and don't wait around for them to throw crumbs at you. Any other general advice that works? Again, this is about things in general and not about any one person or me.

Doe

These people sound like such high maintenance jerks.  Is it really worth it to you to have to tip-toe around them carefully formulating the right words all the time?  Is this how you want to spend your life?

Who wants to be around unpleasant people?   I don't understand why someone would want to cater to someone they consider is a bully. 

Doe

Good lord, I sound so blunt today!  Sorry - I'm in a mood, I guess.  I hope that wasn't too in-your-face!

Begonia

This is sort of a philosophical rambling on this issue, but it prompted a lot of thinking on my part.   

One thing that I know doesn't work is for me to have a win/lose mentality.  My AC are behaving how they behave for whatever reason.  I am not ever again going to negotiate bad behavior, so putting them on the defensive by asking questions about their personal lives...like who is on FB and why, I know will get me in a deeper bunch of turnips.  That seems a bit passive-aggressive to me.  And I do appreciate what you have written and the wisdom of your DH. We just want to make sense of it and it is impossible to do.  I think our AC will come around when they do regardless of how we word things.   

I have found that men do not have these issues we do, generally.  They are more yes and no and leave it at that.  So women conduct personal business way differently.  We like to visit and discuss and talk things over.  Part of the problem, in my view, is that we are not very good (speaking generally here about women) at drawing boundaries. It is not in our nature to be competitive, we like to share.  We also like to get along with everyone and will nearly sell our souls to do so.  Sometimes I have killed with kindness.  Sometimes I have pursued relationships way longer than I should have. 

And mostly, DS stay out of this fracas, and DH usually go out into the garage with the SIL.  I have never heard any of the guys in my several families have these issues we do.  It's easier to bully women, that is why we have the statistics of domestic violence that we do.  97% of domestic violence is perpetrated by men against women.

So we can do a lot of things to change that but often it goes against our kind natures to distance ourselves, to withhold gifts and calls, etc.  That is why a bizillion women go to support groups (like this) and you barely see any guys there.  And our kind nature contributes to the fact that women still only make 75% as much as men for the same work. We find it difficult to say we will not work for $$; we just keep on keeping on. 

Not to say there aren't women who are bullies...we all know that women can be equally nasty. 

To answer your question about tactics I would say that drawing a boundary will cause loneliness, so be aware of that.  And women really love to be a part of a family, so it's like going against the grain to be "mean."  It causes a lot of emotion to do this. 

The WW here give us strength to say "NO."  Plain and simple.  "I will not tolerate your bad behavior any longer."  Period.  No discussion.  Then you have to "mean" it... ;D  And that often comes with estrangement that we cannot put an expiration date on.  This is not for wimps.  And we can't manipulate the results.  We have to let go of any expectation.  And we have to stop questioning our AC about "Why?"  Let it GO, release all those frustrations to the universe. 

I think it is a lot like stopping an addiction.  I allowed myself to be bullied and now I am stepping back from that role and I am willing to pay the consequences for the peace that comes with living my own life.  Not everyone can do this, only those of us who know there is something better than the roller coaster of push pull emotions regarding our AC. 

One thing I do know, is that I have, in the past, had my own bullying tendencies when it comes to my AC.  "You aren't coming for Thanksgiving, well WHY NOT?."  And a zillion other stories over many years.  I have stopped all that too and know that I have no hidden agendas anymore.  This really feels good to me and has not diminished my love for my AC and GC at all.  I know I can love them in my heart regardless if I see them or not.  WW could stand for Women Warriors.  We are brave souls here.  Thanks, Sunshine!!
Yesterday is history, Tomorrow is a mystery, Today is a gift (Eleanor Roosevelt)

Ruth

My own mother is the queen of vagaries.  She never asks a direct question, and talks more around you (i.e. to your scarf, your socks, or to her dachshund) and we all just know and expect this.  I am very direct.  I ask my DS concise questions, when he was having any contact with me that is, because I have always cared very much and wanted to know and understand my children.  This didn't get any results.  He would still dodge questions.  Bullies maintain power by keeping others on the offensive, and I think its a hard cycle to break.  I have no answer to this.  I don't think the problem is so much logistics, if I am using the term correctly, it is more centered around the animosity. 

Doe, you have a great style, and you cheer me very often.


Doe

 :D  Thanks, Ruth, and I enjoy your insights.

lancaster lady

Information about our children ''they say'' is on a need to know basis .
Basically what they mean is we don't need to know .
It's true , if they are well and happy , that's good enough for me .
Re Facebook , I always waited to be invited on to their pages .I would have hated my own DM on
my FB , if they had invented it then .
They tell me things they want to share with me , I don't share my innermost thoughts with them ,
likewise for them .
So we get along just fine , most of the time , they know I am here for them and them for me .
We hopefully have a mutual respect for each other .
My kids are well grown , so perhaps this applies for AC only .

SunShine

Nothing is in my face. Some AC are high maintenance and jerks! That's very true and some of them are born a certain way. Seeing some AC is very tension filled. Yes, men and women handle things differently. I don't like to watch every word I say. I stopped asking personal questions of AC two years ago.

Okay, so you think what I mentioned is hard to keep up, may not be wise on my part and probably won't work? That's fair and I certainly want to know if something won't work. I really have no one to talk to but two men! lol. My DH and youngest DS. I guess I'll keep wondering what does work. If you don't try anything, do you just distance yourself from AC who act up?

I'm lost as to what the overall philosophy some of you follow is. I'm truly lost here. I really am. I don't get it at all. Do you combat the problems or walk away from them or forget about them?

I should have made my user name... "Clueless"  ;-)

Doe

Boy, Sunshine, I don't know what would work for you - what are your limits?  Would you stay with a husband who treated you like your children treat you?    I just don't have enough patience to cater to mean people.

I guess I'm not understanding why would you not distance yourself from a bully, whoever it was?  You could distance yourself to become stronger to go back and fight.  Or you could distance yourself and find that life was more enjoyable with the bully out of your way. 

?


pam1

Sunshine, I'm a DIL with DH FOO problems.  Most of DHs siblings are either outright bullies or have issues with bullying.  I think most of it started with the way they were parented and what MIL/FIL modeled for them.  My MIL is definitely a bully as well while FIL was either a target or to not be the target, he'd enable her.  I think most of it comes from her/them not being able to trust other people.  Most of the time we can't speak to her/them about things that are hurtful to us b/c we are immediately attacked.  Our marriage counselor said people do this when they are insecure.

Another thing, I noticed is yes, they do have problems everywhere.  MIL can't hang onto a friend and has problems with pretty much every female family member, she doesn't go after male family members very much.  One of my SILs is a bully everywhere, she can't hold a job for longer than couple months, she has problems with nearly every co-worker, the only friends she has kept are long distance.  Another SIL is bullied everywhere she goes (this is her interpretation but she is definitely not as confrontational as SIL #1.)  My BILs don't have friends either and issues with work.

People throw rocks at things that shine - Taylor Swift

Ruth

I love this discussion, I really do.  Sunshine would you give more information as to what is going on with your own AC?  I apologize as you've probably done so in the past but I have such a hard time keeping everyone straight in my mind.  Are you and DH estranged from AC?  I'm having a hard time getting my mind around the subject of bullying.

My DS is not what I have ever really thought of as a 'bully', but he is intimidating, not only to me but to others.  He has a lot of bravado, and stares you down.  He can be very blunt and makes no real effort to empathize with others, or to be compassionate.  He can sit insolently silent with you in a room, and I'll panic and start trying to make conversation, feel like a fool, and then I feel bullied by him.??? 

  On the other hand, I've never known him to be cruel, i.e. to hurt an animal, or to just head on lash out at anyone.  He's kind and generous to his Grandma.  He has a neat sense of humor when he allows himself to.  He has a good work ethic, he is not dishonest and has never been in trouble with the law.  he is very clean and neat. 

I have been hurt by his refusal to communicate with me, to show any desire for me to be a part of his life, by his apathy if you will, more than anything. I would often have welcomed his drawing swords, as it would mean he cared enough about me to fight.  His goal seems to reduce me to nothing in his life.  This has hurt me to the core.  I've felt he is smart enough to know that this would hurt me more than anything.  why does he hate me so?  I think he always had a false sense of his own superiority even as a child, and looked down on all females.  He hated me most of all because I was a female and enforced rules and discipline with him, this is what I've come to believe.  I think it galls him terribly, and out of that he's gathered up many reasons to further his animosity - Mom abandoned me and remarried, Mom gave sis more stuff than me, yada   blah blah

I've had to step away from him.  I do it in love, because I believe the only hope I have of every having any kind of relationship with him is to cultivate strength of character in myself.  I have to stop being afraid of him, to stop being dependent on him for my well being, and to stop trying to mother him.  Apologies will not accomplish any thing more with him.    This is the tactic I have adopted to deal with the 'bullying'.  I don't do it with an unrealistic confidence that it will mend our relationship.  But I do it in order to stop any further violence to my heart, to release me from obsessing over him and neglecting my other responsibilities, and it is a form of tough love that he probably should have had years ago.  He has a very stubborn, beligerant personality and he always did, and he learned at a young age to scorn women. 

This is also a little off the subject, but you have bravely opened up a discussion.  I keep reading here and wonder if most of these son/mother alienations are divorce connected?  I'd like to know how many other mothers have the same divorce history, as it seems to be following a pattern, more so with sons than daughters.  This isn't about blame, I just would like to find more answers.

Doe

Quote from: Ruth on September 26, 2011, 06:22:03 PM
I've had to step away from him.  I do it in love, because I believe the only hope I have of every having any kind of relationship with him is to cultivate strength of character in myself.

Powerful words and spot on, Ruth.

Pen

I don't know if I would call my DIL & her FOO bullies, but they certainly seem to think they are the sun that the rest of us have to rotate around. Their wealth gives them a lot of freedom that DH & don't have. It's sort of "soft bullying" I guess.
Respect ... is appreciation of the separateness of the other person, of the ways in which he or she is unique.
-- Annie Gottlieb

sesamejane

"The WW here give us strength to say "NO."  Plain and simple.  "I will not tolerate your bad behavior any longer."  Period.  No discussion.  Then you have to "mean" it... ;D  And that often comes with estrangement that we cannot put an expiration date on.  This is not for wimps.  And we can't manipulate the results.  We have to let go of any expectation.  And we have to stop questioning our AC about "Why?"  Let it GO, release all those frustrations to the universe.

I think it is a lot like stopping an addiction.  I allowed myself to be bullied and now I am stepping back from that role and I am willing to pay the consequences for the peace that comes with living my own life.  Not everyone can do this, only those of us who know there is something better than the roller coaster of push pull emotions regarding our AC. "

Yes this is it.  Especially if you are dealing wiht a bully - my older bros is a bully, and bullies are cowards.  So...I prefer to walk away.  When my children have behaved like bullies, I have sometimes stayed around too long.  I know better now. I absent myself now, and my children are much nicer and better behaved with me.  And it really only took a few months of me developing a little self-respect!

thanks WW

twinsmom

Ruth:  I have also wondered like you, if divorce plays a role in how our AC treat us later.  I was divorced from my twins dad when they were 8 years old, and two separations in between.  He was abusive for 14 years, an alcoholic and cheater.  My girls didn't see the abuse as he was sure to hit when they weren't around.  I have recognized thru counseling why I married this man and why I stayed with him.  That type of person will never again be in my life.  The thing that sticks most in my mind is how I handled the final separation.  When i found out my ex was sneaking in my neighbors back door I fell apart.  Not that I was losing anything great in this man, but my kids father was gone.  I was a real wreck for about 3 months.  My children saw this.  It was years later when a good friend that helped me out informed me that my girls told her it was my fault!!!  I was floored. 
Since that time I picked up, started my own business, was very successful, put  my girls thru college; but never remarried.  This was all 25 years ago and my children are successful, financially and professionally; own their own homes and are doing well. 
Our split came when i went thru a very devistating depression 5 years ago and nothing has bbeen the same since.  They never once came around to offer their love or support in any way.  I came out on the other end but my relationship  with the DD that has my GDs has not spoken to me since.  I have written, called, apologized, begged, invited her to counseling with me; nothing.  Both DD have discarded my entire side of the family.  The depression got their grandmother and aunt upset enough to call them and say call your mom  They feel they were attacked and that was the end for them; ever after apologies from both.
Friends that watched me strruggled for years by myself always admired the relationship I had with my DDs and just can't believe where we are now.  I sometimes think; did they always feel so badly towards me?  How did I not see?  How do you keep your granddaughters away from my love?   
Anyways I am getting off the topic; but I have often thought the problem could well have been how I handled the divorce and the depression.  I was at my most volunerable and it showed.  It is not who i am in life, nor the woman that became a success in her career and held her famly together thru it all. 
I don't have the answers; just the pain of wondering.