Attachment

[cremebrulee]

Justus

Yes, this could be the case. It could also be the case that the H is not acting like an H should and she has good reason to doubt his loyalty and love for her. I think it is easy to blame the DIL or the MIL and chalk it all up to her being evil and out to get you when in actuality everyone has contributed, and more than likely much of the blame goes to the H and how has or has not dealt with the issues head on. Granted, most men are not equipped to do that. There is usually more to the story than we know.

Yes, it could be the case, however, my son, is one of the most loyal men I know, he works 3 jobs, takes her grocery shopping, does the cleaning, takes care of mending things on they're farm, helps feed the animals and take care of them, cleans, irons his own cop uniforms, when does he have time to be disloyal?  And believe me, I know my son, disloyalty would be a huge deal breaker. 

You are making a lot of assumptions here about these people's M. Unless you are right there witnessing their every interaction, you don't really know this is how they are interacting. You only see how she treats you and their interactions when they are with you. Frankly that is not a lot on info to go on to make the assumptions you have made. My H's other woman thought I was a horrible W because of what DH told her, and when she did see us together things weren't good because our M was falling apart because of their A. She saw what she wanted to see. She could think ill of me, but not of H and so it was all my fault. The truth was he was a horrible H at the time, and I was ready to leave even before I found out about the A.

No, not making assumptions, I do have seen what goes on, and I'm not as they say, stupid, I have witnessed first hand, my DIL's insecurities, how she acts, how she socializes, and behaves publically...she is not able to control her insecurities, she has lived this manipulation all her life...it's a learned behavior...which I might add...extended family has also seen and questioned, not to mention, personal friends of my son.

Besides, your son has choice. I cannot express that enough. If he is truly that miserable, he can leave at any time, or he can insist on change. If she is truly this evil, he can choose not to put up with it. I don't know how much more strongly I can state this. The fact that he stays means he gets something out of the M. Maybe you cannot fathom what that is, and maybe you thing your R with him should be more important than whatever it is he gets out of it, but that isn't for you to decide. He stays because he wants to, and he is choosing to sacrifice his R with you for his M. His choice. If she is as bad as you describe, then I do hope he becomes strong enough to leave. *shrug*Yes, he does have a choice, and I wish more then anything else in the world, he and she would go to long term counselingââ,¬Â¦

I never said he isn't getting something out of the marriage, however, I have said, they are both co-dependent on each other...and yes, he does have a choice, but he has a daughter and he feels he's made a committment...to both of them....and just b/c your post says, he should leave her, doesn't mean he will or should...an awful lot of people stay in abusive marriages, despite they're unhappiness and fears.

I am not saying a spouse has no right to have an opinion, I am saying that if someone speaks badly about you, treats you badly, gets in a fight with you, or attacks you, your spouse should be right there defending you right or wrong. Believe me, DH and I disagree on many things, but if he is in the middle of some drama, I am right there backing him up. If I disagree with what he is doing, you bet I let him know later. We both are secure in our M because we KNOW we can count on our spouse.

I understand what your saying and how you feel, but that is not how I feel or who I am, which doesn't make you right and me wrong...I would not take my husband's back or son's back if they were wrong....I would be there for them, but would point blank tell them they were wrong.  If my husband would have ever treated my mother the way my DIL treats me...believe me, he would not only have been reprmanded by me, but by my entire family...my father would have never allowed anyone to be so disrespectful to my mother not even a son in law.  That is, to them, crossing boundaries.  We were taught respect.  It's ok to disagree, it's ok to not like someone or they're way of thinking, but it is not ok, to dispute it to the point of treating that person like an animal or talking to them like they are nothing...totally unacceptable.

I think a lot of problems occur when a DIL who is not used to a new family and the family fails to give the new couple time and space to become a couple, and the DIL clumsily tries to put up boundaries.

Yes, I totally agree, that is what happens in a lot of cases, but not what happened in mine...besides,
They moved out of state!

The son is caught in the middle and really doesn't understand what the ruckus is about. This is when he makes his first mistake, he does what he has done all of his life and he defends his M rather than trying to understand what his W needs/wants and realizing that is more important than his M's needs/wants.

Granted, that may very well be in some cases, but again, it is not the rule...there are exceptions, different people, different issues, different personalities...insecurities, jealousy and dysfunction.

There is always choice

Yes, indeed, there is always choice, however, one can never predict what another individual is going to do in the case where my DIL got up and rudly huffed out of my apartment years ago, b/c my son was talking to me....first off, I don't care what her reason was, that just isn't done...it's very abnormal...rude and unacceptable behavior.  This was the only way she knew how to draw the attention back to her, even if it was negative.  She did that again when we were in a resturant...jealous of the fact, that my son was explaining something to me about his job...I saw it coming, I was watching her face...so, what does he do, he gets up and follows her...I would have done the same thing, and matter of fact, when we were in the resturant, I did the same thing, out of shock and really not knowing what to do...but thinking about it later and discussing the situation with my girlfriend, she said, "The moment she got up, I would have said, I'm not finished...and sat there until I was fininised be it she left or not, she added, if someone in my family did that, they would have been banned from the family....you just don't do those things, you don't treat people like that...very innappropriate."

You used the word choice there. She lies, he chooses to stick his head in the sand. She doesn't want him to see you, he chooses to do what she wants rather than doing what he wants. Unfortunately, you pay part of the price for her selfishness and his choices. I quess what it comes down to is that they are both 100% responsible for their own choices/actions and so they are both responsible for the hurt that is the result. What I see happening here is people taking the easy way out and totally blaming the DIL and assuming the absolute worst about her. I think this is a big mistake and only makes the situation harder.

Well, you may be seeing it that way, but the ball doesn't always fall into our court b/c of our expectations of how people should react to situations...I'm agreeing with you, but put in that particular situation, again, reactions cannot be planned and I do know my son, does try to do what is right, while his choices were wrong...., and there have been times when I've been so angry at my son, b/c he knows me better then anyone, and knows I would not react unless someone pushed me...

Again, you cannot MAKE someone who they are not, and it is not my job to MAKE my husband happy, if he wasn't happy before we married, there is nothing I can do to bring him happiness.  He may feel better at times, however, he is still going to be negative, miserable and depressed due to a life he's lived since childhood.  A person who is not happy, who is insecure, who doesn't realize that just because they think and feel one way, and someone disagrees with them, so they take it personally as an attack against who they are, why they're whole world falls apart, b/c they believe they are being told they are wrong...that person is not going to be happy, and no one can do anything to change that but themselves...so, a spouce can only do so much to help...but a spouse is not a miracle worker, he/she cannot wave a magic wand and make that person feel better about themselves...and that is the key....my DIL doesn't like herself....and if you knew how she grew up, it is understandable...plus, she knows in her soul, that her manipulations and jealousy is wrong, but she doesn't know how to fix it...it's all she knows...she doesn't know any other way....so unless a person themselves, admits to themselves, "hey something isn't right here, other people don't act and feel this way, I need to figure this out, I need counseling to do that", that person will never change, and there is nothing anyone else can to do MAKE them happy.  They've been unhappy most of they're lives....they don't know how to be happy...how to make light of other peoples words, how to dismiss things that are said...that a secure person would never even take as a personal attack against them. My son can reassure her, which he does all the time, he allows her to have her way, all the time, b/c if she doesn't she acts out, like a child...it's all she knows...it's who she is...

Not saying it is black and white and I am not saying that choices are always easy. If it were important for him to see his M, he would make the choice to do so no matter the consequences. His W cannot FORCE him to not talk to his M. He is a big boy and maybe he should buy some big boy pants.

He does feel it's important to see his mom....and he is...however, when you live with an insecure manipulative person all your life, you know very well, if he chooses to do so, there is going to be immediate tension from her...anger, which she might not display, but it causes an unspoken tension and it is more then just uncomfortable.  As my male friend said who went thru this and is now divorced...."I went along with her every whim, b/c I wanted to sleep at night".  I didn't go see my mother, b/c everytime I did, she was angry for 3 days....nothing was ever said, but she was huffy and made it very uncomfortable for not just me, but the kids".  Was he right in his choice, no, but he did make that same choice....which he is now paying for.

I have known men like this and I have also known men, my DH is one of them, who would never settle for an R like this. I know men who do not take the easy way out for the sake of peace. It isn't a given that all men are like this or that they cannot learn to be different. If they are that way, we cannot blame their Ws for who they choose to be.

Yes, your right, there are men who would never even think of dating a woman like this, let alone marry her...but believe me, there are a lot of men and women out there who are very good at pretending who they are not...then once your married it all changes very fast.  And yes, I blame her, as well as my son....and if they'd ever come to me, I'd tell them, they both need counseling, b/c this is a co-dependency that is very unhealthy....

And please remember, you and your husband are two totally different people with a totally different issue...you can not predict what people will do, or assume what they should do, it doesn't work, like that...

According to his family there is no cause for this cut off and SD (who can be a total witch) is totally to blame. Nothing could be further from the truth. The choice to cut MIL off was totally SIL's idea. It took SD a while to get on board with it. They refuse to believe that.

Well, yes, ok, makes sense, but again, whole different issue, people, problem...doesn't mean my DIL and son are going to fit nicely into that idea of what you think they should do, b/c this happened to a family member of yours.  And please remember, every family has they're own family politics...disagreements, etc....but, most families do not act out rudeness, deceipt and manipulates each other against each other.  Most families are mature and intellegent enough, not to mention, to polite to allow something like this to happen.  It doesn't go that far....

There are sometimes good reasons to a MIL off.

In some cases yes, by all means, but certainly not in all, and certainly not mine...if I were the person my DIL says I am, believe me, my son's friends would not be coming around for dinner parties, or them inviting me to they're homes, they're parents homes....they all disagree with the way my son has handled this problem, they are very sad about it...they've seen her in action...but they realize, he loves her...

It think there are a lot of men who can and do stand up to their Ws. As you said, it isn't black and white. There is always an interaction, and negotiation going on. You know when to stand up to your H and you know exactly how to get what you want.

Yes, there are, and I do appolgize if you thought I meant otherwise...we all know that, and there are a whole lot of men, who don't ever have to deal with such a despairing stressful issue, b/c they're wives are mature adults....wise and confident....however, there are many cases out there, where they cannot stand up to they're wives, and wives who cannot stand up to they're husbands.

Men know those same things about their Ws. They know when to put their foot and when to let things ride. You may not see it when they stand up to their W, and because they do it differently, it may not look like they are doing it, but they do. I can think of several Ms in which I thought the H was a pushover, but upon further inspection I found that most things really went the H's way. We woman accommodate without even thinking about it.

And men also know, if they do put they're foot down there will be an awful backlash so, they do what gives them the most peace....there are women out there who will yell and scream, be huffy for days, weeks, and make they're lives so miserable, the husband is broken down, mentally...so he does, what is best for peace...and peace at all costs, is no peace at all, believe me.  Someday, it will cause him much inner pain. 

This is happening in our children's Ms, too. They are negotiating their M constantly and their M will change over time as they both mature and learn about each other. I think we are wrong to consider one of them a victim who is coerced by the evil one into doing horrible things to his/her family when it is more likely that they are both simply dealing with the issues badly.   

Well, that is your choice to believe that way, but unfortunately, until it happens to you, it is difficult to believe there are many unstable, immature, dysfunctional and self imposed people out there who will cause much pain for others to get what they want.  People who do not care about the feelings of others, only results....believe it...

I think it is a bit telling that when speaking about your DIL, you referred to her as your "husband's wife."

That was a typo or b/c I was talking about my son's step mother's situation, it was still fresh in my head...I meant, my son's wife...and I know what your trying to assume here with this statement, but you couldn't be further from the truth....my son, was always encouraged by me, to do with his life, what made him the most happy...even if that meant, leaving his family behind, and going off into the world to experience....and to get as much education as he possibly could, before he married....there is nothing more important, then life experiences, and learning from your mistakes. 

How do you know I haven't gone through something like this? I have and I have chosen not to be a victim.

I'm very sorry you have....and for assuming you haven't, however, whatever you went thru, it wasn't the identical situation, as all the ladies situations in here, and everywhere, each case is different and unique....not one is identical....

We can agree to disagree, we can feel and think differently about issues, and personal situations, we can support each other, right or wrong, or indifferent, each woman is going thru her own personal tragedy, and it would be wise, to be compassionate, understanding....

I also want to add, if my DIL came to me tomorrow, and she would sit down and speak to me calmly, I would intently listen, and be more then willing to forgive her if she would explain to me, what I did, to cause this...I would be happy to admit, "My gosh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or to have you take it that way...it wasn't my intent, it was my intent to do this or that... and if I did or said something out of frustration, I would apologize....but, my son told me a long time ago...Wife will never apologize for anything, it will never happen, this is ALL YOUR FAULT, is how she thinks and believes....My DIL is not able to view that she might have any ownership in this...she cannot say, "I'm sorry, please, lets go foreward".

..and I'm wondering why?  why did you pick me? 
Who are you really?

[2chickiebaby]

..and I'm wondering why?  why did you pick me? 
Who are you really?





She's DIL in disguise, that's who she is.  And, that's just the way beth is sometimes.

[cocobars]

Wow!  I really missed this didn't I?  I don't know what to say, but really couldn't make heads or tails of this...  Is this woman from a hate site?

[RedRose]

I know what you mean coco...very confusing

She's here to tell us off...not listen to our concerns...I agree with chickie, we don't need this.

You are sooo right Anna...

You are sooo good and articulate Creme...

[Hope]

Quote from Justus:
I am not saying a spouse has no right to have an opinion, but I am saying that if someone speaks badly about you, treats you badly, gets in a fight with you, or attacks you, your spouse should be right there defending you right or wrong. Believe me, DH and I disagree on many things, but if he is in the middle of some drama, I am right there backing him up. If I disagree with what he is doing, you bet I let him know later. We both are secure in our M because we KNOW we can count on our spouse.

Response:
I have had a hard time relating to Justus' view on most of what was written, but I just wanted to say something about the quote above.  Maybe I am in the minority, but I don't believe in backing up someone if I believe they are wrong - even if they happen to be my DH, DS, DD, M or F or anyone else.  In my opinion, that would be a lie for me to say they are right even if I know they are wrong.  I wouldn't pounce on my DH (or whoever the person is) and I would try to stop any attack on them, but I would also try to stand up for what I believe.  I remember my x-SisterIL defended my DH's alcoholic brother (her DH at the time) saying that he did not have a drinking problem when it was obvious he did.  I could never understand her doing that - as though her saying he didn't have a problem made it true.  Not long after, they split up and my BIL ended up dying from alcoholism last year at age 53.  Am I alone?

[cocobars]

No Hope, you are not alone.  This was an incredible thread, and obviously the DIL was just picking an argument, because she hasn't been back since this.

Better left in the dust...  Forgotten.  I would file this one in the circular file!  LOL!

[Hope]

As usual, I am behind the times, but it was good to know I'm not the only one who wouldn't back up a loved one if I thought they were wrong.  Are you feeling better, Coco?  I've been thinking of you non-stop.
Hugs and love, Hope

[cocobars]

Thank you Hope!  I'm hanging in!  LOL!

[cocobars]

I've never really understood someone who will back up someone else, just because of who they are.  When I've been in those situations, I have tried to stop the conversation (or argument), and then pulled the person aside to tell them in private what my thoughts were.  If push ever came to shove, I would not back up someone that I didn't agree with though, no matter who they were.  I'm happy I'm not alone there.  I just couldn't imagine doing that...

Like I said before, it's a great post for the circular file!  LOL!

[cremebrulee]

The Buddhists believe that much of our pain occurs because of attachment. Attachment to persons, to feelings, to expectations and to things. If we are attached to things turning out a certain way, it causes us pain when they turn out differently. If we are attached to people being a certain way, it causes us pain when they aren't that way. If we are attached to things, we feel pain when we loose them. I learned of this when I was young and it has always had an impact on how I view the world.

I had hoped my GD would always live near me and it caused me pain when SD decided to move across the country. This concept of attachment has not lessened the pain of her absence in my every day life, but it has put the responsibility for that pain on my shoulders right were it belongs. It is after all MY attachment. I could be very angry with my SD, and I certainly don't agree that moving was the best thing for her or her DH or SD, but it isn't mine judge. I am not attached to the idea that my opinion is important in their decision making, nor to am I attached to the idea that my R with my GD is the primary R to be considered in their decisions for their family. Even so, there is hole in my life that is going to be wounded and gaping for a while. It will heal, and my life will go on, it just won't be as rich and meaningful as it was when I could walk down the block to see my GD.

Not that attachment is bad, we are supposed to be attached to our families and the pain from the attachment is often a signal that something is wrong. When DH pointed out when he was very close to having an emotional affair that if I didn't have a problem with his R with this girl, there wouldn't be a problem, I agreed and told him that if I wasn't attached to him, that if I didn't love him, and if I wasn't attached to a certain idea of what I expected out of a husband, we wouldn't be M and there wouldn't be a problem. (Went on to tell him that I was so attached to a certain idea of a mate that we were very close to divorcing and if he didn't have a problem with that, there wouldn't be a problem) Turned out he was more attached to me than he or that girl thought.

I have always thought of my children as gifts that I had temporary custody. I knew and accepted that they would move on with their lives and probably away from us. Right now, they are scattered across the country. My one Son-in-law likes me and I can only hope that I am as lucky with the mates the other two finally choose. Even without being attached to some idea of a family that lives close and is close, their absence is hard.

Have you ever considered your R with your children from the perspective of attachment? What do you think?

"Grasping at things can only yield one of two results:
Either the thing you are grasping at disappears, or you yourself disappear.
It is only a matter of which occurs first."
Goenka

I love this concept, and it is very true....very true....we become so attached to things being the way they are, we always expect them to remain the same...and you are the first person who has said we become attached to the expectations of how a mate should be, and when it doesn't work out the way we expected it to be, or expected them to be, divorce follows.  So so true...if only, parents and schools would make society more aware of this....we are so far behind intellectually, it's pathetc...and after you realize these things, it's like "Wow, it was there all the time, except I was never aware of it..."....what a shame that our country hasent' progressed in viewing a much larger picture....our culture needs to change....

Thank you just us....

Creme

[momX3]

Anna, Cocobar, Cremebrulee, Hope, & RedRose,

Whewwwwww!!!!!  I am behind on reading several of the "posts" but I got a chance to read this entire one tonite. 
For a few minutes, I thought I was on the wrong site.
"Justus" has no perspective what being a MIL is truly like.  I was appalled at some of the
things she said.   I was thinking
"Whoaaaaaaaaa........have you ever walked in a MIL's shoes?"

I loved the responses from you "Wise Women."

It is so difficult being a MIL and seeing our sons in a relationship that we didn't quite envision prior to the marriage.  We all want only the best for our children........but before
our sons were "husbands to DIL, " they were our sons.
All I want, is for my son to be happy.  Many times when he calls me, he sounds so sad.
It breaks my heart but I never pry. Before he got married, he confided in me about everything and we had such a wonderful Mom-Son relationship.  It is all so different now.

I too went thru the stages of thinking what did I say wrong  or what did I do to DIL?
Thanks to you "Wise Women," I realize I am not alone.

I so enjoy reading all of your posts and all the intuitive excellent advice.
I wish all of you lived next door as the support system you all weave is the greatest. 

[Pen]

Yes, we're here for you, momX3. I also appreciate all the support and acceptance. No one else seems to understand quite like the WWU crew!

[Freeasabird]

I an very interested in attachment in children to parents and parents to children. my adopted child was damaged by her attachmentto her birth mother. She could not let go of what she had lost aide four. She internalised her pain. I read a book about this by a therapist called longing for the moon. Children who suffer grief unrequited love. They spend long time longing and them they close down eventually a part of them may die. Unable to love or be loved.  My adopted child has taught me how holding onto note for someone not able to return that love damages you and the whole of your life. letting in is the best thing for all parties.  You cant change another persons mindset. What about that biblical tale where the two mothers fight over whose child it is and the king Solomon says but the baby in half. The real mother says to give the baby to the other woman. Her love isabsolute she would rather give child up than see it dead. My son has been taken from my life by my adopted daughter and her manipulation. So the pain is so great i have to acknowledge i love him so much i must let go. I must stop trying to prove my love.  The pain is proof enough. I will leave a poem and writings so one day he may need to know how i felt. My nun died and i never told her i loved her so i learnt the importance of saying how you feel. He i cant talk to my son i will write. For my adopted daughter i have kept her papersand photos safe. Attachment is a mine field.

[2chickiebaby]

I an very interested in attachment in children to parents and parents to children. my adopted child was damaged by her attachmentto her birth mother. She could not let go of what she had lost aide four. She internalised her pain. I read a book about this by a therapist called longing for the moon. Children who suffer grief unrequited love. They spend long time longing and them they close down eventually a part of them may die. Unable to love or be loved.  My adopted child has taught me how holding onto note for someone not able to return that love damages you and the whole of your life. letting in is the best thing for all parties.  You cant change another persons mindset. What about that biblical tale where the two mothers fight over whose child it is and the king Solomon says but the baby in half. The real mother says to give the baby to the other woman. Her love isabsolute she would rather give child up than see it dead. My son has been taken from my life by my adopted daughter and her manipulation. So the pain is so great i have to acknowledge i love him so much i must let go. I must stop trying to prove my love.  The pain is proof enough. I will leave a poem and writings so one day he may need to know how i felt. My nun died and i never told her i loved her so i learnt the importance of saying how you feel. He i cant talk to my son i will write. For my adopted daughter i have kept her papersand photos safe. Attachment is a mine field.

Dear Free,
I hope by just getting this written down it will somehow make things clearer to you.  I hope for the best for you and your
little one.   Sending blessings your way....