Attachment

[Pen]

Justus, you're right about DS being busy...we understand that. What we don't understand is how suddenly DIL decided we weren't worth visiting anymore. She plans his time, although he does stand up and insist on time to see us. When he does, she's always around guiding the conversation her way and DS and I never get a chance to talk. She sees her family daily with and without DS. He doesn't try to get between them or discourage their closeness. Why are we the ones who get left out? Why do I have to quietly pine away and her family gets all the access they want? I miss my son, and I would like to have a little time to talk with him. What is wrong with that?

[cremebrulee]

Justus, you're right about DS being busy...we understand that. What we don't understand is how suddenly DIL decided we weren't worth visiting anymore. She plans his time, although he does stand up and insist on time to see us. When he does, she's always around guiding the conversation her way and DS and I never get a chance to talk. She sees her family daily with and without DS. He doesn't try to get between them or discourage their closeness. Why are we the ones who get left out? Why do I have to quietly pine away and her family gets all the access they want? I miss my son, and I would like to have a little time to talk with him. What is wrong with that?

Then, I think you should tell him exactly what you have said here in a controlled manner...ask him, if perhaps, you and he could spend one night say a moth, that you'd like to take him to dinner...a mother needs quality time with her son, and I surely feel your not asking a lot...don't tell him what yu suspect your DIL is doing...just nicely tell him that your getting older and evaluating in a different perspective, and you realize, you miss him ans would like some quality time together with him?  Many sons do that for they're mothers...take them out to eat...

[Pen]

You're right - I need to stop being such a chicken and just ask for what I want. I must tread carefully, though...DIL is very clingy and controlling. I'm hypersensitive to this, because my SM wouldn't let my dad see me without her. She still won't let us have a phone conversation without getting on the other line. For all I know she reads his mail, too. What is with these women?

[2chickiebaby]

I don't know what it is, Pen.....if we EVER talk to son (CDIL's husband), she jumps in the middle of our faces to listen, it's freaky, like the most irritating thing you've ever seen!!  If we EVER talk to him on the phone, she gets on the other line.  We have to call and ask for her, never him.  Control is paramount to her; that is all she's about.

She will only talk about herself and if you venture off the topic of her, she goes silent, never commenting, unless it's some dreadful thing that happened to someone else. 

When you are having a conversation with someone and another person gets right in your face, it seems like an invasion.  I can't get over that someone would do this.

[cocobars]

I know chickie.  If I'm talking to my DIL, everything is ok until I ask my son a question.  Then she answers.  She does this whether we are speaking in person or on the telephone.  I don't think I've been able to talk to him in about a year.  I've even tested it to see if it's just me imagining things.  I have conversations with him where every single reply is from her.  Why?  What is she afraid of?

Does anyone get this?

[2chickiebaby]

I wish I knew, Coco..this is so freaky....

[justus]

There are some people who, unfortunately, can't be reached no matter what you do.  They don't want to be reached. they don't care how anyone else feels. Yes my son is a big boy & can make his own choices but if dil doesn't like his choices she proceeds to make his life a living h---.  so what are our sons to do?  Try to have a normal relationship with their motherrs, & suffer the consequences from wife.,  Or just give in to wife to have peace.  He has to live with her, I don't.  I know my son will probably choose peace.  Even tho he sometimes doesn't agree with dil, he will go along because he wants peace.  Dil knows this, & uses that too !!

You are totally right about some people being out of reach. With many DILs, I don't know if it is that they don't WANT to be reached, it may be that they feel threatened and so have circled the wagons. The threat isn't necessarily from the MIL, but from how the son handles the situation. He is having to negotiate competing loyalties and, well, most men don't negotiate such things well, if at all. It sounds like your son isn't dealing with it at all. His complete loyalty should be with his W and since she is being so protective of their R, I wonder if he screwed up and totally blew off her perspective or feelings regarding you and sided with you over her when he should not have.  Think how you feel when your H does that. What sort of heck for him comes from that? You rightfully expect him to have your back even when it comes to his parents. When he doesn't you feel threatened and betrayed.

I think it is a mistake to think that she is coercing him into doing anything. There is always choice. What your son is to do is to grow up and learn how to be open and honest with his W. He needs to learn how to deal with emotionally charged issues directly rather than hiding from them. He should be intentionally going about negotiating competing loyalties so that his W is secure in the knowledge that she comes first always. He also should be taking responsibility for his choice not to see you. Think about it, how often has your H thrown you under the bus blaming you for not "allowing" him to do something he didn't want to do in the first place? It really sounds like your S is letting/expecting your DIL to place and enforce boundaries with you instead of stepping up to that plate and setting them for himself. If he would take responsibility in this rather than "letting" her do it, the poor guy, I bet the boundaries would be a lot more reasonable and comfortable for all of you.

If your DIL is insecure, it is most likely because your S is not doing his job as an H.  I am not saying that your DIL is blameless here, but it seems that she is getting large parts of the blame that are not hers. She is still young and has a lot to learn about such things as does your son. There is an interaction between you, her and your S and you are all responsible in some way for the state of affairs as they stand.

[cremebrulee]

justus
You are totally right about some people being out of reach. With many DILs, I don't know if it is that they don't WANT to be reached, it may be that they feel threatened and so have circled the wagons. The threat isn't necessarily from the MIL, but from how the son handles the situation.

I agree adding, in a case like this, the DIL also fears the love her husband has for his mother, perhaps she wasn't as close to her mother or father and doesn't understand it?

He is having to negotiate competing loyalties and, well, most men don't negotiate such things well, if at all. It sounds like your son isn't dealing with it at all. His complete loyalty should be with his W and since she is being so protective of their R, I wonder if he screwed up and totally blew off her perspective or feelings regarding you and sided with you over her when he should not have. 

I can look at this in the way you've described...but me, being the person I am, I can't agree with someone, despite who they are, if I don't agree...it isn't about taking your spouces back, it's about being honest about how you think and feel, and every person has a right to that...I'm sure there are a lot of times when he does agree with her, but with insecurities like some of our DIL's possess, she is going to act out, and forget about all the times he does go along with her...all she hears is no, which is taken as an insult against her character, without any idea of the fact that all people think and feel differently about different issues....and a DIL should be mature enough to understand that....don't you think?  I mean you must remember this is about someone who is not able to allow this man his own identity...she needs him to think and feel like she does, she dictates to him how he should feel and he just sighs, "yes dear" and over a period of years, he becomes the person she wants him to be.  I've oft times said, I would never marry again, as I would never ever want to live someone else's idea of what my life should be....and that is how it is in a whole lot of cases....

Think how you feel when your H does that. What sort of heck for him comes from that? You rightfully expect him to have your back even when it comes to his parents. When he doesn't you feel threatened and betrayed.

I would feel as if he has a right to his opinion...however, when I was younger, I would take it as a sort of betrayal, if I were at war with my MIL....but it wouldn't make me right.  I understood this was his mother...and we are not always going to agree and we didn't. 

I think it is a mistake to think that she is coercing him into doing anything.

This is where I disagree...my DIL is very manipulative...and she even lied about situations...what was he to do?  Who was he to believe?  His new bride, the love of his life, or....the woman who he knows better then anyone?  I can understand his desire to stick his head in the sand.  My DIL coerced my son to not visit me...she hated me, hated being around me...and if my son, talked to me to much, she'd up and leave, leaving him with no other choice but to follow...

There is always choice.

Yes there is, but men do not always make the right choices when it comes to giving them peace....

What your son is to do is to grow up and learn how to be open and honest with his W. He needs to learn how to deal with emotionally charged issues directly rather than hiding from them.

I totally agree

He should be intentionally going about negotiating competing loyalties so that his W is secure in the knowledge that she comes first always.

If wife is not secure, there is nothing he will be able to do to make her feel secure...if someone is not happy, it is not they're job to make you happy...it is not his job to make her feel secure...there are tons of women who are secure and would never think of making they're husbands choose, and mothers shouldn't do that either....

He also should be taking responsibility for his choice not to see you.

totally agree but why isn't he seeing her?  Because wife would get upset if he did...some women can be hell to live with if you don't agree with them all the time...and it sounds to me, like if he'd go see his mom, this woman would become a real problem to live with...do you know that some women threaten they're husbands if they go against they're wishes....I mean, it all sounds good on paper, and you are correct, I'm not saying your not, but, it is also not so black and white...

Think about it, how often has your H thrown you under the bus blaming you for not "allowing" him to do something he didn't want to do in the first place? It really sounds like your S is letting/expecting your DIL to place and enforce boundaries with you instead of stepping up to that plate and setting them for himself. If he would take responsibility in this rather than "letting" her do it, the poor guy, I bet the boundaries would be a lot more reasonable and comfortable for all of you.

Your right again, but men are going to do what gives them the most peace...and, if he'd step up to the plate, now he's forces to side with someone...so....I have a male friend who lived like this most all of his life...do you know what he did...he gave her complete authority, stopped all communications with his mother, worked all the time, night and day, and left her to deal with the kids...now they are divorced and he gave her everything...just wants to live the rest of his life in peace...and, by the way, he is retiring next month and going to live near his mom and take care of her now that she is ailing.

If your DIL is insecure, it is most likely because your S is not doing his job as an H. 

I totally disagree with this one, if his wife were secure, this problem would not exist and doesn't exist with DIL's who are secure...they want they're husbands to have relationships with they're mothers, not to mention, they do to....if you love someone, you encourage them, not discourage them, especially when it comes to family....

I am not saying that your DIL is blameless here, but it seems that she is getting large parts of the blame that are not hers. She is still young and has a lot to learn about such things as does your son. There is an interaction between you, her and your S and you are all responsible in some way for the state of affairs as they stand.

yes and no...again, people are people and bad things sometimes happen to good people...any wife, who causes any kind of riff with her husbands family, unless they are purely dysfunctional, doing drugs or alcholics...is being unreasonable...and there are not a whole lot of men in this world who would stand up to they're wives, while there are a lot of men, who wouldn't have married into this relationship in the first place, they would have seen how insecure and controlling the woman is....

I work with a young woman, my DIL's age...do you know what she told me, and by the way, she loves her MIL..but, and she would never think of being like this...Love her to death...however, she told me once, if I would treat DH's mother, like your son, has allowed his wife to treat you...I would be in counseling...long term, then she proceeded to say...your son needs to grow a set and have a relationship with his mother, understanding that his daughter also needs to have a relationship with her grandmother...this is sooooo wrong!  And it is....

But I do agree, our son's are in fact spinless when it comes to they're wives, but I can also understand why, as well as understand what comes with insecure, immature and jealous young women.  Every case is different, and yet, so much alike...but the answers are not so cut and dry...there are always underlying circumstances in each individual case...

Did MIL's act out wrong when all this started happening...yes, indeed, I did, I was shocked...into not saying a word, I clammed up...I couldn't believe this was happening, couldn't believe this woman was treating me like this?  I had never been treated like this before...It is very difficult to say, what one would do in a situation like this...believe me....until it happens to you...you know this is your husband's wife,  deep down inside you realize, she is doing this on purpose...and yet, your hands are tied....your afraid of doing anything and you'd really like to believe it's you, but it's not.

[cocobars]

This is where I disagree...my DIL is very manipulative...and she even lied about situations...what was he to do?  Who was he to believe?  His new bride, the love of his life, or....the woman who he knows better then anyone?  I can understand his desire to stick his head in the sand.  My DIL coerced my son to not visit me...she hated me, hated being around me...and if my son, talked to me to much, she'd up and leave, leaving him with no other choice but to follow...

if his wife were secure, this problem would not exist and doesn't exist with DIL's who are secure...they want they're husbands to have relationships with they're mothers, not to mention, they do to....if you love someone, you encourage them, not discourage them, especially when it comes to family....

Did MIL's act out wrong when all this started happening...yes, indeed, I did, I was shocked...into not saying a word, I clammed up...I couldn't believe this was happening, couldn't believe this woman was treating me like this?  I had never been treated like this before...It is very difficult to say, what one would do in a situation like this...believe me....until it happens to you...you know this is your husband's wife,  deep down inside you realize, she is doing this on purpose...and yet, your hands are tied....your afraid of doing anything and you'd really like to believe it's you, but it's not.
[/quote]

My reaction was the same, creme, but my DIL didn't just come out of the blue with it.  It happened over a couple of years.  At first, I was just treated like furniture, you know - just there, but certainly not seen or acknowledged.  That was my "I'm imagining things" stage, "I'm being overly sensitive, and something's wrong with me."  Some of us would rather take the blame than admit someone has a problem with us.  I stuck my head in the sand.  I'm still trying to figure out what's going on.  So here I am...

[cremebrulee]

My reaction was the same, creme, but my DIL didn't just come out of the blue with it.  It happened over a couple of years.  At first, I was just treated like furniture, you know - just there, but certainly not seen or acknowledged.  That was my "I'm imagining things" stage, "I'm being overly sensitive, and something's wrong with me."  Some of us would rather take the blame than admit someone has a problem with us.  I stuck my head in the sand.  I'm still trying to figure out what's going on.  So here I am...

yeah Coco, I hear ya...I so wanted it to be me, believe me, I went thru that same stage...of denial...now, can you imagine, for a moment what our son's go thru emotionally...I don't believe they mean to blame us, b/c they've known us and lived with us, most of they're lives, however, I can surely understand, the emotional trama they go thru, the shock, the denial...and then realizing, it's just soooo much easier for him to go along with her.  are they right for doing that...no, I've read many articles which said, if our son's would have put they're foot down in the very beginning, when this all started, it might not have escalated to the degree it has.  But they didn't and there is no going back...I agree with Justus on a lot of things she said, however, it can't always be applied to every case...

I believe she bought some very good thought provoking items to the table...but, in my case with DIL...it is just not that simple

By the way, here is another reason....

When my son first started dating her...all he talked about was me...what a good cook I was...etc...his friends told me they did the same...they told me, they told him, he was lucky to have a mom like me...well, that didn't sit well with this insecure new woman, who for the first time in her life, had someone to love her, and she feared me....she feared she wouldn't be able to live up to me, or be the wife, or mother he thought I was...not to mention his friends, therefore, her only alternative was to shut me out....I believe in her own mind, by shutting me out, shuts off his love for me, but it doesn't....a mother is always a mother and her child will always love her no matter what....and I hope all you gals hold onto that...b/c it is!

[cremebrulee]

Creme & Coco you both put that so well you managed to say exactly what I feel, thank-you.  My dil has done some unbelievable things including throwing something at son while asleep because she was mad at him.  No chance to defend himself, what an awful thing to do to the person you claim to love.  When someone is not rational there is nothing  anyone else can do.  Dil is very manipulative, very secretive.  Makes me wonder what she has to hide??   I too was in shock when my dil treated me so badly,  no one in my life had ever done that before, to me or anyone else I know.  I am still trying to figure her out. 
I think my son is afraid of her, she doesn't seem to be stable in a lot of ways.  I am not the only one to see this in her.  How can all of us be wrong?  Dil TOTALLY flips out if anyone dares go against her about anything.  I've seen it first hand & it is very scary. 
The way she controls her children is sad to watch.  My grandkids can't even ask to do anything with us because she doesn't like them to ask, & if we ask to do anythiong with them we have been told it will or won't happen farther & farther into the future.  She has forbiden both parties to ask, our grandkids & us, so how do we get one on one time with them if we can't ask? 
My son & dil told us we could have our grandchildren overnight once a month, for a full 24 hour period.  In Nov it didn't happen, In dec. we had them overnight (we babysat so they could go out),  but not for the agreed on 24 hours.  They gave us their word & broke it.  I have never given my word to them & broke it.  So far this month no word on when they may be coming.  Yes I'm grateful for the time I do get, but that is not the point here.
Creme, when this first happened to me I probably said too much.  Saying too much, not saying enough, nothing works with them because they are so insecure, jealous, & selfish.  I know I made mistakes, I think we all do when something like this happens.  YThe difference between my dil & I is that I admit I made mistakes, but dil is never wrong, & never makes mistakes !!

Hi Anna and Good Morning...
I said way to much in the beginning as well...and, I will tell you this...I now think she baited me, and pushed my buttons b/c if I know the kids and my son, when my son was dating her, they probably told her how strict I was....and she took it was above and beyond what most could take...I know, she's pushed my buttons on purpose and I've seen her anger and hate for me. 

I was there visiting...heard the overhead garage door go up....got up from the sofa and went to greet her at the door...said hello and was hoping to have a conversation with her, over coffee or something...she barely even said hello, stormed into the kitchen and without taking off her coat, proceeded to open up every single cabinet in the kitchen and slam each door shut...she then stormed into her bedroom and didn't come out until my son got home...then told him that she was in there b/c I was reading a book and ignored her...sheeesh....? 

And to lie like that, deliberately, I mean, she knows I know the truth...?  I don't get it...why people think lying solves anything? 

But Anna, I did the very same thing as you...never yelled at her, but vented to my son, and the last time, I really, really yelled at him....and we didn't speak for 3 years...I literally cut them out of my life...she was so freakin rude....sorry...

[cremebrulee]

  Good morning to you too !!  Boy do I know about that.  I have witnessed my dil lying about a lot of things, & how do you keep your mouth shut when you see this happening?  Everything, & I mean everything is about her.  No other opinions, no other things to do, no other conversations but hers.  It's so frustrating.    I've ben trying not to say anything but sometimes I just can't help myself.  I feel like tearing my hair out sometimes she is so unreasonable !!

so, consider for one moment, what it's like for our sons...these women, over time, conditions them to think like they do or else....
I don't believe my DIL ever considers her husband, and to me, is very unappreciative.  She expects something, and boom, its done or else.  Even down to concerts they go to...etc.  I wonder if she's every said to him, hun, lets do something you want to do, or why don't you take off for a day and do something for yourself?  I'll take care of this or that...but no, it's all about her.

When I went to visit them the last time, I had just got there, and we all get in the car, and she asks him something and he was tired...he didn't snap at her or anything...he simply said in a very soft and tired voice....yes or no, and she goes off on him in the car and yelled.."I won't have attitude!"  I believe that was a show for me, but what DIL in her right mind, would go off on her husband in front of her MIL, and what DIL would go out dancing and make a bet with her sister, which one of them would be the first one to pick up a guy.

Once, my son's father's family all got in a horse drawn carriage to go for a ride...there she was, in front of the carriage, yelling at my husband, pretending to cry....do you know what it was about?  She said, it was to hard on the horse. 

Another time, after she walked out of my apartment, years ago, she went home to his father's house, while he came back to try and talk to me, b/c he knew I was hurt and really angry...his father told me, she walked around the house humming as if to say...mission accomplished....they had no idea what-so-ever anything happened.

She is evil...she cares nothing about feelings, only results....

[justus]

I agree adding, in a case like this, the DIL also fears the love her husband has for his mother, perhaps she wasn't as close to her mother or father and doesn't understand it?

Yes, this could be the case. It could also be the case that the H is not acting like an H should and she has good reason to doubt his loyalty and love for her. I think it is easy to blame the DIL or the MIL and chalk it all up to her being evil and out to get you when in actuality everyone has contributed, and more than likely much of the blame goes to the H and how has or has not dealt with the issues head on. Granted, most men are not equipped to do that. There is usually more to the story than we know.

I can look at this in the way you've described...but me, being the person I am, I can't agree with someone, despite who they are, if I don't agree...it isn't about taking your spouces back, it's about being honest about how you think and feel, and every person has a right to that...I'm sure there are a lot of times when he does agree with her, but with insecurities like some of our DIL's possess, she is going to act out, and forget about all the times he does go along with her...all she hears is no, which is taken as an insult against her character, without any idea of the fact that all people think and feel differently about different issues....and a DIL should be mature enough to understand that....don't you think?  I mean you must remember this is about someone who is not able to allow this man his own identity...she needs him to think and feel like she does, she dictates to him how he should feel and he just sighs, "yes dear" and over a period of years, he becomes the person she wants him to be.  I've oft times said, I would never marry again, as I would never ever want to live someone else's idea of what my life should be....and that is how it is in a whole lot of cases....

You are making a lot of assumptions here about these people's M. Unless you are right there witnessing their every interaction, you don't really know this is how they are interacting. You only see how she treats you and their interactions when they are with you. Frankly that is not a lot on info to go on to make the assumptions you have made. My H's other woman thought I was a horrible W because of what DH told her, and when she did see us together things weren't good because our M was falling apart because of their A. She saw what she wanted to see. She could think ill of me, but not of H and so it was all my fault. The truth was he was a horrible H at the time, and I was ready to leave even before I found out about the A.

Besides, your son has choice. I cannot express that enough. If he is truly that miserable, he can leave at any time, or he can insist on change. If she is truly this evil, he can choose not to put up with it. I don't know how much more strongly I can state this. The fact that he stays means he gets something out of the M. Maybe you cannot fathom what that is, and maybe you thing your R with him should be more important than whatever it is he gets out of it, but that isn't for you to decide. He stays because he wants to, and he is choosing to sacrifice his R with you for his M. His choice. If she is as bad as you describe, then I do hope he becomes strong enough to leave. *shrug*

I would feel as if he has a right to his opinion...however, when I was younger, I would take it as a sort of betrayal, if I were at war with my MIL....but it wouldn't make me right.  I understood this was his mother...and we are not always going to agree and we didn't.

I am not saying a spouse has no right to have an opinion, but I am saying that if someone speaks badly about you, treats you badly, gets in a fight with you, or attacks you, your spouse should be right there defending you right or wrong. Believe me, DH and I disagree on many things, but if he is in the middle of some drama, I am right there backing him up. If I disagree with what he is doing, you bet I let him know later. We both are secure in our M because we KNOW we can count on our spouse.

I think a lot of problems occur when a DIL who is not used to a new family and the family fails to give the new couple time and space to become a couple, and the DIL clumsily tries to put up boundaries. The MIL who is used to things being a certain way takes it personally and attacks then becomes victim. The son is caught in the middle and really doesn't understand what the ruckus is about. This is when he makes his first mistake, he does what he has done all of his life and he defends his M rather than trying to understand what his W needs/wants and realizing that is more important than his M's needs/wants. Often all the DIL needs is an attempt to understand and validation. And this is what I am trying to get at. When a couple marries,  the Ps become second string. How that change is negotiated by all parties at the beginning impacts the R from then on. If the son does not put his W first, can you blame her for feeling insecure?

This is where I disagree...my DIL is very manipulative...and she even lied about situations...what was he to do?  Who was he to believe?  His new bride, the love of his life, or....the woman who he knows better then anyone?  I can understand his desire to stick his head in the sand.  My DIL coerced my son to not visit me...she hated me, hated being around me...and if my son, talked to me to much, she'd up and leave, leaving him with no other choice but to follow...

There is always choice.

Yes there is, but men do not always make the right choices when it comes to giving them peace....

You used the word choice there. She lies, he chooses to stick his head in the sand. She doesn't want him to see you, he chooses to do what she wants rather than doing what he wants. Unfortunately, you pay part of the price for her selfishness and his choices. I quess what it comes down to is that they are both 100% responsible for their own choices/actions and so they are both responsible for the hurt that is the result. What I see happening here is people taking the easy way out and totally blaming the DIL and assuming the absolute worst about her. I think this is a big mistake and only makes the situation harder.

Besides, you cannot blame her for his choice. He is 100% responsible for that. You can blame her for trying to manipulate or whatever, if that is truly what is going on.

If wife is not secure, there is nothing he will be able to do to make her feel secure...if someone is not happy, it is not they're job to make you happy...it is not his job to make her feel secure...there are tons of women who are secure and would never think of making they're husbands choose, and mothers shouldn't do that either....

Totally disagree with this. I am not talking about a personality issue either. If that is the case there is a lot an H can do to help his W along the road to feeling secure. My H has done much for me. If the reason she is insecure is that he has been disloyal to her, he can work hard to show her that he will never do that again and that will go a long way towards building security. My H's emotional affair made me totally insecure. He has worked hard to show me that he is not leaving, that he has changed, and that I can trust him. I am secure now.

totally agree but why isn't he seeing her?  Because wife would get upset if he did...some women can be hell to live with if you don't agree with them all the time...and it sounds to me, like if he'd go see his mom, this woman would become a real problem to live with...do you know that some women threaten they're husbands if they go against they're wishes....I mean, it all sounds good on paper, and you are correct, I'm not saying your not, but, it is also not so black and white...

Not saying it is black and white and I am not saying that choices are always easy. If it were important for him to see his M, he would make the choice to do so no matter the consequences. His W cannot FORCE him to not talk to his M. He is a big boy and maybe he should buy some big boy pants.

Your right again, but men are going to do what gives them the most peace...and, if he'd step up to the plate, now he's forces to side with someone...so....I have a male friend who lived like this most all of his life...do you know what he did...he gave her complete authority, stopped all communications with his mother, worked all the time, night and day, and left her to deal with the kids...now they are divorced and he gave her everything...just wants to live the rest of his life in peace...and, by the way, he is retiring next month and going to live near his mom and take care of her now that she is ailing.

I have known men like this and I have also known men, my DH is one of them, who would never settle for an R like this. I know men who do not take the easy way out for the sake of peace. It isn't a given that all men are like this or that they cannot learn to be different. If they are that way, we cannot blame their Ws for who they choose to be.

I totally disagree with this one, if his wife were secure, this problem would not exist and doesn't exist with DIL's who are secure...they want they're husbands to have relationships with they're mothers, not to mention, they do to....if you love someone, you encourage them, not discourage them, especially when it comes to family....

Actually, this isn't always true. A woman who is secure who Ms a mamma's boy can quickly become insecure. A woman who Ms a man whose Ps are abusive or who use the man relentlessly is in her right mind if she thinks it best that he make distance between his Ps and his family or even cut them off. My SD's MIL is currently married to a child molester. When SD's DD was born, she refused to allow the child molester to visit, but the MIL refused to visit without him along. This was the last straw for both her and SIL. MIL was abusive to SIL growing up and we won't go into the laundry list of horrible things she did to him as an adult. They decided they simply did not want her in their lives or in their DD's life. SD does not want SIL to ever have contact again, but would not prevent it. She has made it clear that she will never have anything to do with MIL.

According to his family there is no cause for this cut off and SD (who can be a total witch) is totally to blame. Nothing could be further from the truth. The choice to cut MIL off was totally SIL's idea. It took SD a while to get on board with it. They refuse to believe that.

There are sometimes good reasons to a MIL off.

yes and no...again, people are people and bad things sometimes happen to good people...any wife, who causes any kind of riff with her husbands family, unless they are purely dysfunctional, doing drugs or alcholics...is being unreasonable...and there are not a whole lot of men in this world who would stand up to they're wives, while there are a lot of men, who wouldn't have married into this relationship in the first place, they would have seen how insecure and controlling the woman is....

It think there are a lot of men who can and do stand up to their Ws. As you said, it isn't black and white. There is always an interaction, and negotiation going on. You know when to stand up to your H and you know exactly how to get what you want. Men know those same things about their Ws. They know when to put their foot and when to let things ride. You may not see it when they stand up to their W, and because they do it differently, it may not look like they are doing it, but they do. I can think of several Ms in which I thought the H was a pushover, but upon further inspection I found that most things really went the H's way. We woman accommodate without even thinking about it.

This is happening in our children's Ms, too. They are negotiating their M constantly and their M will change over time as they both mature and learn about each other. I think we are wrong to consider one of them a victim who is coerced by the evil one into doing horrible things to his/her family when it is more likely that they are both simply dealing with the issues badly.

Did MIL's act out wrong when all this started happening...yes, indeed, I did, I was shocked...into not saying a word, I clammed up...I couldn't believe this was happening, couldn't believe this woman was treating me like this?  I had never been treated like this before...It is very difficult to say, what one would do in a situation like this...believe me....until it happens to you...you know this is your husband's wife,  deep down inside you realize, she is doing this on purpose...and yet, your hands are tied....your afraid of doing anything and you'd really like to believe it's you, but it's not.

I think it is a bit telling that when speaking about your DIL, you referred to her as your "husband's wife."

How do you know I haven't gone through something like this? I have and I have chosen not to be a victim. My children have to live their lives as they will and I may or may not be a part of that. I hope that I am, but I will not allow such a thing to color my life or such a person as you believe your DIL to be to make me miserable. This is where our choice comes in.

[2chickiebaby]

Justus,
Your name says it all.  I don't know why you're here;  I guess to tell us off.  We get it and don't need it.   

[Pen]

I'm so confused It's hard to follow all the quotes...I'm like Pooh bear these days, rather befuddled. Sorry!

What I have gathered from all this is that neither MILs or DILs should assume too much about each other. One size does not fit all. My DIL acts like someone else's DIL who had a bad childhood, but my DIL has a very strong, upstanding family. DS attached himself to them the way another's DS might have who came from major dysfunction - however, my DS did not come from major dysfunction (not that we were 100% perfect 100% of the time.)

I'm tired of trying to figure it out. I'm not smart enough to play games or be manipulative. I can barely take care of myself!