The next step?

[Begonia]

Last night at bedtime my phone showed my DD calling.  I did not answer.  I saw she left a phone message.  Before I could weaken and get back on the insanity horse of forgiveness, or hear another rant from her about something, I deleted the message.  Wrong or right?  It has happened a hundred times before that there will be some crisis she is going through and she will lapse into her "psychology" voice, saying if I just behaved differently---but until I do----.  Then I am upset for days, can't sleep, etc.  I just can't go through that any more.  But I have guilt about it...waaah, waaah, what if they need me? waaah waaaah what if GC are sick? 

I have detailed my conflict with my DD and DS in the Strength in Numbers topic, but now I need some help with the next step.  As I have said DD and DS have been alternating nasty and nice for many years, like a yo-yo and I never know when they will alienate me (not return calls, etc).  I came to this forum because my DD blasted me with another alienating call out of the blue. I have drawn my boundaries and am ok with not having them in my life at the price I have to pay being a doormat to their inconsideration. 

Suggestions for how to proceed from here?  How to stop the "bad mother" tape in my head?  This time will be different but how do I stay strong and loving with an open but a tough heart?  Like that saying, "If the swamp is full of alligators, don't go swimming."   

Thanks WW for your help. 

[Scoop]

On one hand, I think you did the right thing in deleting her message.  On the other hand, I think "what if ... it really was an emergency".

Do you have someone who could listen to the message for you?  And then let you know if it said anything important.  I do that for my DH, when his P's leave a message, I always pass on the message, but I don't pass on the guilt trip that came with it.

I think part of the problem is that you're looking at this in a 'reactionary' way, instead of being proactive about it.  I think a proactive way to think about it would be to decide that you will speak to her only when she can get her temper in check and speak to you like a civilized human being.  You can even change your answering machine message to "We only check this machine sporadically, if this message is important, please make sure to speak to us directly."  And then, when she calls, you have to calmly say "DD, you're speaking very rudely to me, please change your tone." and if she can't, then say "I'll speak to you when you've calmed down.  Please call back when you can speak to me like a civilized human being." and then HANG UP.

Seriously, have these scripts written out near every phone in your house and use them.

But be sure to use positive language, notice I didn't say "Don't call back until ..." because then, all she'll hear is "don't call back". 

Good luck.

[Keys Girl]

If you are upset for days, can't sleep, deleting the message was absolutely the right thing to do.  You wouldn't have deleted it if they were treating you with courtesy and respect.  It's a bit late to call someone at that time of day anyway and there is no need to spend another minute with anyone on the phone who upsets you to that extent.

I have found that when tiresome people don't get what they want from me (money, an audience for their "insight"), they go looking for someone else to fit the bill.  This leaves me with some peace and quiet and people that I want to spend time with.

I'm with you, if they want a doormat, K-Mart has them in different colours. (Maybe we can get K-Mart to fund some t-shirts with that saying".

I think our adult sons and daughters perceive that we don't have much of a backbone in standing up to them, that if they keep "whining" forever, we will break down like a mother caught at the grocery store cash with those tiny chocolate bars and a crying toddler trying to grab them.  It's up to us what we decide to do.

If you want to change the output, you have to change the input.  My suggestion is to curb the guilts (hard to do) if they are sick, there are hospitals, someone else will take them, that's what ambulances are for, if they need you, they will find someone else if you don't respond.  When I would drop my son off at daycare on my way to work he would howl and then I would feel desperately guilty, one day, one of the teachers told me to wait behind the wall and see how quickly he was laughing and playing once he thought that I was gone.

My son played on my "guilt" string as if he played a violin.  No wonder, he knew me sooo well.  No longer.  Smash that Guilt Violin in your mind and stay out of that swamp.  Don't fall into the trap of being someone else's pawn the way so many people have. 

I'll bet our adult sons and daughters are managing surprisingly well when we are not in touch with them.  They can be malicious or cruel when it comes to us but their own common sense and self preservation tactics aren't being forgotten when it comes to THEM.

Replace the "bad mother" tape with "I won't let anyone else tell me how to behave, how to live my live, spend my money, disturb my sleep, especially not my emotionally abusive adult DD".

We changed their diapers when they were babies, that doesn't mean we have to clean up anymore of their poop!

[Sassy]

Bravo for not answering the phone!! BRAVO BEGONIA!   You have taken the next step - saying no to demands that you be someone else's garbage can to dump their feelings at their whim.  That next step is continuing to protect and take care of yourself, and you are on your way.

You can call your daughter when you're ready and want to.  On your schedule not hers.  You never know what you're going to get with her, especially at night.  You love her.  Love does not mean listening to a slew of garbage just because she had a drink or feels like it's time to deliver some.

I am so proud of you for saying, no thanks for now!

[Sassy]

P.S. When I read your post, I clapped!

[Begonia]

Scoop, Keys Girl and Sassy:  Thank you so much for your insightful and loving responses.  They brought tears to my eyes and a little sparkle of humor too....
I really smiled when Keys Girl said THIS: We changed their diapers when they were babies, that doesn't mean we have to clean up anymore of their poop!

There are any number of people my DD can call if there is an emergency and those people would call me and leave messages or send an email, etc.  So my flimsy rationale that maybe somebody is sick is just my own silly neediness.  The hard part, I think, is to accept the fact that I am not needed.  I have work to do to on this. It's hard when you live alone and can't get another opinion, so THANK you WW!!

But I raised independent children who are well thought of in their jobs, with their friends, etc.  I have felt such shame that they treated me (and some other family members) this way.  But, you know, I let them and then I put myself in the doormat position so they could do it again.   

It will take some dodging the alligators to make it through the swamp, but I can see the other side.  Feel strong today that I did the right thing.  My instinct says stay away.  My DD told me she needed space, that she couldn't deal with me (for some comment I made last May--I apologized, I always apologize...even for her mistakes...ACK).  So I have drawn the boundary and absence from her rantings feels really good to me. 

Talking to her right now would repeat the same behavior of her airing her list of bad mother things and me groveling around trying to placate her anger.  I am not going to do that again.  Again, WW, thank you for your wonderfulness!!

[Pooh]

Me too Begonia! Woot woot for you.  I know my Mother's time-line and sleep schedule.  If it was a true emergency that I really needed her, I would have rang her house phone off the hook too until someone answered!  If it is truly bothering you on that end to think maybe it was a true emergency, maybe call her or text her and clearly state what you are doing.  That you no longer will accept the rude phone calls so you are not going to answer or listen to messages until you feel you can trust her to have a civil conversation.  Maybe come up with a "safe word" to tell her if you recieve a text with that word, she is saying that she really needs to talk to you and in a respectful way.  Then you will call her back when you are available?

Don't do it for her, do it for yourself.  This is a new boundary you are setting and if she doesn't know what you are doing, it may cause you stress worrying about it.  Remove that stress by telling her what YOU are doing so you don't have to worry about it.  If she abuses the "safe word" then you will remove that option.

[Begonia]

Pooh:  Great suggestions for the safe word.  I like that idea a lot.  It's like a baby step. 

[luise.volta]

Yup, you don't swim with those alligators! Let the tapes in you head run. When mine run...I write or think a gratitude list and shift my focus. We get to set ourselves free. Sending love...

[Begonia]

Thank you, this is a very tough and ragged road, this being a mom......

[pam1]

You did great, Begonia!  One step at a time...

[Begonia]

OK, here's an update and I need some advice. 

Obviously, even if I select Delete on my phone if I haven't listened to the message it will play. 

So, my daughter's message was, in her cheerful daughter voice, "Say mom, could you let me know what those plants were you gave me?  ......."

No mention of her bad behavior, no sorry.  Was she drunk and didn't remember? 

This is always how it goes...and then I play along because I really want to have peace with her.

What will work now?   I have no urge to call her, but again, my co-dependent sick mind says, "Did I blow that all out of proportion?"  No, I know my own mind...I think.  Anyway, this is crazy-making on her part and I want it to stop. In the past I would have instantly called her to smooth her temper.   

I got this way because of wanting so much to believe my husband..."I did pay that bill, don't worry." and then an alcoholic BF five years ago who was masterful at his lies.  I am so wounded that I have a difficult time knowing when I am being manipulated so I overcompensate by groveling....  Having said that, I am a fiercely independent woman with a professional job and I function at a high level.  I rarely confide in anyone (never at work) that I have these issues.  Not even to my sister (she has perfect children . 

But this time NO.  Not a chance I am going back to that see-saw.  Things have to be different.  Help WW, I know you have walked through these hot coals.....   

[Pen]

You sound stronger, Begonia. I'm glad.

I got mixed messages as a child; DM would scowl but at the same time claim she felt happy. Both DF & DM told us kids they were excellent parents, but were actually self-involved and cold in many ways. They bragged about our strong family, but DF walked out suddenly. And so on. I ended up blaming myself - it can't be their fault, they're perfect! It must be me.

So, I understand what you mean about the craziness. I struggle too. Wish I could help you.

[elsieshaye]

When my ex-husband leaves messages, I hold the phone far enough away from my ear so that I can't hear it (decrease the volume if you have to), and then delete it when playback's about 5 seconds in.  (My voice mail allows me to delete a message after a couple of seconds of play - I don't have to listen to the whole thing.) 

[pam1]

Begonia, you do sound a lot stronger.  I think the decision of how you want to respond (or not) is up to you. 

Have you read anything about bpd?  I ask because my MIL is diagnosed with bpd and does very similar things.  I'll get an email where she is ranting about how I upset her (and I really cannot understand it) and then a half hour later she is calling me, sweet as pie, asking me for a recipe.  Like nothing happened!  And she does similar if I bring up the email, she really does act as if it was so long ago and it wasn't really anything.

I think the behavior is termed "disassociating" in the mental health field.  The rages are foggy to them afterwards and some truly might not remember what they've said.  Not like that helps us. 

What does help is finding tools to deal with it and I think there is a variety of ways, but it has to be your choice.  My choice is bowing out of the game until MIL can treat me in a consistently kind manner.  IMO, and this is just what I've read and heard from therapists, is that these type of people can only fix themselves and most peoples attempts to "help" them actually backfires.