Where to Start? My daughter-in-law

[ginger]

I signed back on to thank you Gretchenw for your words of sanity.  How many times can I be told to step back and remove my emotions.  I did feel that my sons integrity was in question by the poster Elsieshay and I do not feel that I attacked anyone in my response.  I stated that the assumptions made were unfair and unreasonable. 

With the exception of a few I do see unequal rapprochement amongst the panel here. Thank you for noting that  yourself.

[elsieshaye]

Ginger, I apologize that I came across as questioning his integrity.  That wasn't my intention, and I'm sorry to have offended you.

[twyla]

Elsie, that was a nice apology. I don't come across those often. Ginger, I do understand where you're coming from, both in life and in regards to this forum.

[Pen]

Not challenging you, Gretchenw or Ginger, just needing clarification on your statements regarding unequal rapprochement here. I'm not sure I agree, but might do so if I could get a bit clearer about what exactly you mean.

[Pen]

Regarding this forum, sometimes it just isn't a good fit. Or the timing is off. Or we're unable to take what we need and leave the rest. It doesn't mean the whole thing is wrong, just that at that moment it isn't quite what we're looking for. In the past couple of years since finding this site (which I credit with saving my relationship with my DS, BTW) I've taken some time away when the tone of the posts annoyed me for some reason. I didn't make a big deal out of leaving, I just stopped reading and posting, jumping back in when I was in a better place or when I felt comfortable writing.

We're a motley crew here, we're going to get many outlooks, many viewpoints. I've learned a lot about myself, my DIL, my FOO, and human nature in general. What worked for me in my situation may not work for another.

[Sassy]

I do not believe that my son is a victim of abuse in the sense of domestic violence.  I see him as a victim of a overbearing wife who refuses to see a marriage as a partnership. I am not after a better relationship with my daughter-in-law as much as I would like to see her readjust her thinking when she says this is your mom, your problem.

Whoops last time I pushed "post" instead of preview after the quote...

My thoughts for the above "quote" would be that if your son is not being abused, then it is appears best, for you and for him for their marriage, for you not to interfere in their marriage dynamic.   If there is a power struggle within an adult partnership, where neither is being abused, than that is not any third party's business. They are adults, and they can negotiate their own marriage.   You cannot change your DIL's thinking towards her husband.   That is up to him to try to do, if he wishes.  If he wants a third party to change his wife for him, he could suggest seeing a marriage counselor to his wife.

A woman who works at home, works.  If wife expects a husband to do his extra work when he has guests that he invites, instead of her being willing to do the extra work herself for his guests, I don't see how that makes her overbearing.   If she invited guests and she insisted he clean for the company she invited, I believe that would be domineering of her.  Thus, it could be construed that a husband making plans when he doesn't have the time or energy himself to make sure they happen and insisting his wife clean for his guests, would be domineering of him.   Your DIL may see her husband pitching in for his guests, as him making more efforts to treat their marriage as a "partnership."  One where SAHM mom doesn't mean "maid."

Instead of "his mother, his problem" maybe it's a more general "his plans, his effort to make."  Whether it's hosting his mother or his company softball team over after the game.   Or setting up a big screen tv system.  I understand it was disappointing when your son cancelled your one visit, because he did not have time to prepare for his guest's accomodations.  I wish he had made other plans to arrange so it could happen.  I think he knew ahead of time that his wife was not willing to take on the extra work.

It is inappropriate for a man to ask his mother to hide his marital assets.  He could hide cash other places.  Involving you in his deception while preparing dissolution of his marriage is not fair to you.  Divorce and custody battles can get very ugly.   A good relationship with an ex-DIL could be more important to staying close with your granddaughter, than a good relationship with a DIL.  Leaving you in the neutral zone could be the kindest thing he could do. 

If he does not follow through on his plans to leave the marriage, if DIL ever finds out you hid assets from her, it could be a relationship killer.  You could be seen as an enemy of the marriage, even though you were just trying to help your son.   Right now you and she are cordial, and you are welcome in her home and around their daughter on a regular basis.   I am not trying to frighten you, but instead warn you of potential trouble it seems you could avoid.

My thoughts about both of your son's problems, his power struggles with his wife and his plan to hide cash from her, seem to be the ones he has to learn to handle as a man.  The further away you stay from participating in those personal issues of his, the better outcome predicted for you, and ultimately for him as well.   I sincerely mean this as coming from a place of looking out for you.

[twyla]

Maybe it's the mama bear in me, but if my child called tomorrow because they needed a safe place to accumulate money to pay a good attorney to make sure they did not get royally screwed in a nasty divorce, I'd do it. The seed to leave would have been planted and I would be there to help my child leave their marriage, instead of saving it. A few thousand dollars for an attorney does not equal substantial assets. Or, it could be that I'd do it because my mother once did it for me, as i was a victim of emotional and verbal abuse and just did not need the aggravation of the ex knowing I was leaving until he was served with divorce papers from a good attorney. I imagine a woman getting ready to leave a marriage might be encouraged to squirrel away some money. Kids know that sometimes, if the world's against ya, mom and dad are still in your corner. If it meant never talking to my DS again b/c he patched things up with DIL, I'd do it anyway. Because he knows that no matter the circumstances and where the chips fall, I'm still there for him.

[jdtm]

Ginger - Back to my first reply - your situation reminds me of our ex DIL and son.  She suffers from a personality disorder.  The place I found the most help was another site - http://www.bpdfamily.com/ because those on that site were dealing with more severe and damaging issues than many on this site.  I think that is where our problems lie - those who have relationship issues that can be solved and those of us who have relationship issues that cannot be solved.  After all, one cannot reason with someone who can not reason.  All the best ...

[Pooh]

Not challenging you, Gretchenw or Ginger, just needing clarification on your statements regarding unequal rapprochement here. I'm not sure I agree, but might do so if I could get a bit clearer about what exactly you mean.

I would like to hear exactly what is meant by unequal rapprochement as well.  I will tell you there is an very unequal rapprochement in regards to my own situation.  In the beginning, it was me always trying and getting absolutely no cooperation from DS or DIL.  Now, I guess it's equalled out more because none of us is trying. 

Like Pen, this forum helped me learn and grow as a person, and understand more about myself.  I was in an angry, hurt place a year ago and several posts that I read, I took personally and was frustrated.  I have learned since then that this forum is about self-exploration.  You have to be willing to hear other perspectives and see if they apply to you or not.  It is not meant to make you feel bad, but simply to make you think. 

Ginger, I think your son is in a domestic abuse situation.  If it is as bad as what you are describing, then it is verbal and mental abuse, which can be just as painful or even more so than physical.

I'm sorry to see any of you leave, but if you feel this forum is not a fit for you, then I wish you the best of luck with your situations.

[Sassy]

I first thought it was emotional abuse that was being described, too.  Especially the part about isolation and DIL crowing about ownership.   (I imagine the crowing is one cause of the isolation; I can't imagine hanging out long with a couple where the wife crowed that she owned her husband. )  Since all we have to go on here is the writer's words, I'm going to believe her when she says he's not abused.    Just in what appears to be a lousy partnership with a crowing overbearing wife who won't clean for his guests and doesn't see his mother as her family. 

I hope my daughter-in-law never feels the need to venture onto the internet to brag about how she has put her husband in his place.  God knows he gets enough of that message directed at him daily, does he need for others to participate in his embarrassment?

I agree he does not.

[Pooh]

Ginger - Back to my first reply - your situation reminds me of our ex DIL and son.  She suffers from a personality disorder.  The place I found the most help was another site - http://www.bpdfamily.com/ because those on that site were dealing with more severe and damaging issues than many on this site.  I think that is where our problems lie - those who have relationship issues that can be solved and those of us who have relationship issues that cannot be solved.  After all, one cannot reason with someone who can not reason.  All the best ...

jdtm, I modified your post to make that website a link instead of just the name.  We are allowed to post links to other sites, articles and such as long as they are not advertising or trying to get someone to buy something. 

[Pooh]

You're right Sassy.  It has to be terribly embarrassing for him to have to hear that.   My Mother always said, "Those that have the most to lose, will take the most."

[twyla]

Since clarification is needed, I'll say what I mean. I see a large double standard here. One woman comes on and vents and is defended, while another comes on and is told to step back and stop posting because she is too emotional. In addition, two very similar stories have been told, and while one is being told her DS is in the equivalent of a domestic abuse situation another is being rewarded for very similar behavior. People have been accused by administrators and administrator helpers of getting defensive when they post an interesting, data filled, well-referenced article in response to one article that got posted. There was an accusation this weekend that there was "behind the scenes stuff" over a downright despicable passive aggressive generalization that was made. Apologies for wrong behavior are not encouraged, while intolerance is tolerated. I was directed to read posts, and then keep reading some more. Okay, did that,  also noticed another divide: MILs are a lot more tolerant of a generalization a MIL makes versus one a DIL makes, and vice versa, and that is even evident in the administrators, who are supposed to be objective. All of this creates an atmosphere of unequal rapprochement, and since most of the people responding are somehow linked to the management of this site, it creates a giant mixed message and is reinforcing a culture for inconsistency. Meanwhile, posters are diagnosing others relatives with personality disorders, which is incredible, given that their own relative has yet to be clinically diagnosed unless you count GoogleMD. Has anyone considered this might be dangerous for a site like this? Anonymous administrators otherwise unaffilated with this site would go a long way towards prevention of groupthink as well. Which is another giant problem I see here. Surely, some teen must be looking to add a bullet to his resume. "Volunteer administrator" would be a cake activity and a worthwhile one in this day and age. I already read the posts about "doing our best" and "seeking perfection" so I assure you, that's not what I'm looking for here. We all can admit mistakes, that's easier than actually fixing the mistake and doing better next time. There are too many Chiefs here. Does this site actually WANT feedback from it's posters? And if it does, will it actually take into consideration those less than desirable comments and do something about it? Constructive criticism isn't a bad thing, yet three people all allude to the same thing and they are asked for specifics. Hope this is specific enough. I'd hate to start naming names. This site seems little better than an avenue for groupthink given the lack of diversity and rather low number of posters who are not doing unpaid work for WWU.

[gretchenw]

I have been trying to think of the best way to explain what I mean by my desire to be in the company of women who are willing, and actively trying, to seek rapprochement with the offending mil/dil.  I think the best way to do explain it is by example: this is what I want for myself. 

1. The single time my dil did come to my house, 4 years ago, I knew she didn't like me.  My "solution" was to plan activities that made her shine.  She is a super athlete, so I planned family activities in her sport - where she could outshine the rest of us and feel good.  I think it helped her feel valued.

2. Suppose I HATED my mil.  Even so, if she thought my patio chairs were too dirty to sit upon, I would quickly get a damp towel and clean (reclean) a chair for her.  I would not sit and watch her try to clean the chair with a tissue, nor would I rant on about it later.  This is what I mean by rapprochement -- trying to see things from the other woman's point of view, and doing things that would make the opposing mil or dil feel better, feel accepted.  Taking a few more positive steps in her direction each time we meet.

3. My own needs here are to exchange dialog with a group of women who are trying to make things better for themselves and their relatives, women who are open to change and actively seeking it, women who will gently help each other and me! to be a little better each day.  I see a lot of support for women who need to withdraw emotionally from a very bad situation.  But I also see too-quick judgments of new posters, and too-few attempts at self improvement.

[surfinbirdy]

I have been reading for awhile and have to agree with twyla and gretchen.  The moment I tried to give insight here, I was attacked and then not even apologized to.  The person said she was out of line, still with no apology for jumping to conclusions and attacking me, and she is complimented for being a "class act" for apologizing, which didn't happen.  Cult like or something, I don't know.  It's good to know there are others here who feel that way.