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From Child Relationship to Adult Relationship

Started by AnonymousDIL, May 19, 2011, 10:48:47 AM

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AnonymousDIL

Quote from: pam1 on May 20, 2011, 10:53:45 AM
Nah, that's a little dramatic.
I wasn't trying to be "dramatic"  :-\ Just the progression of my thoughts. As I described myself, even I wouldn't want to be around me. It was a very unhealthy relationship. It really does sound parasitic.

Sassy, I understand what you are saying. I need to stop over-analyzing the situation. Everyone is allowed to make the decisoins that are best for them. And as much as I hate it, space really is for the best.


Sassy

Quote Everyone is allowed to make the decisoins that are best for them.

I think what could be comforting is not that he's allowed to make his decisions, but remember that his decisions (some of them, anyway - histrionic emails aside) are meant for helping him, not for hurting you.    He has to make the ones that are best for him and SIL, in order to grow.  What you'll find eventually is that most of ones he makes because they are genuinely best for him (lies about DH to mutual friends aside) are probably best for you, too.

Sassy

Hey Anon, I thought about you last night.  I wished I was at game night.

I was thinking about what you had written, and pam.  Three thoughts popped up.  One was about boundaries.  One was about family systems theory and family styles.  The other, related, was pam's excellent suggestion about the modern etiquette books.  Manners really truly are a way to have, keep, and respect boundaries without making yourself or the other person feel uncomfortable.  When people get uncomfortable pain, impatience, being short, even lies come out.  I have heard manners referred to as grease for the wheels, to keep it running smoothly. The cogs between you and DB get jammed, and I agree the grease will help.  I sincerely hope this is something you look into.   As in, going to the bookstore this weekend and finding one that you enjoy the writing style of.   Especially during this "space" time, so you can be all brushed up on them when the tide rolls back in.

Sometimes when someone wants boundaries, and they have trouble maintaining them, they end up doing things to keep them, that end up hurting someone even when they didn't mean to. They just wanted to keep up their boundaries.  I may have asked this question before, please forgive me I don't recall :   If you invite DB and SIL to game night, and they pass on the invitation, would you or DH ask them, "Why not" or "Why can't you come?"    Would them saying "No, but thank you" be enough?

If you do ask them  for a "valid reason" so to speak (which I cannot recall and don't know), it seems you may not realize not realize that asking someone "why not" is pushing past social boundaries.  It's inappropriate.  It will make someone uncomfortable.  It is not good manners to ask "why not.".  If your DB and SIL have their boundaries violated like that (by being asked something that is 100% not the asker's business)  and they don't have the etiquette set yet, to stay mannerly when their boundaries are violated, such as explaining "sorry we won't be able to join you", they may end up letting their violated feeling take the best of them, and "lie."  They may say "oh we have another party" in an attempt to "grease the wheel" while maintaining their boundaries.

Accusing someone of lying, when they were trying to maintain boundaries against being crossed, may have felt like a double-cross.  For example, supposed I asked someone if they bleached their hair.  That would be a nosy question.  It would be rude of me. If I asked a stranger, it would be obviously rude.  But if I asked someone I expected to have less boundaries with, such as a good friend, I may not feel I was being rude. I might assume, They're not supposed to have boundaries with me, we're supposed to be close, which for me means we have no boundaries between us!     In response to my boundary crossing question, someone with easy manners at the ready would demure "A lady never tells."  Someone else might tell me "That's is none of your business!"  A third person might "lie" say "No I don't."    If then find a box of hair bleach in their bathroom, and indignantly accused her of lying to me, you can see where that would go downhill fast.

The sad part about the story is, my hair bleaching lying friend did love me, did want to be close to me.  But she also wanted some privacy.  More than I realized.  And by pushing past her boundaries by violating her privacy (the same respect for privacy I would know to give a stranger) , and getting angry at her when she had done something I deemed "unethical" or "hurtful" to maintain them, the original closeness is at risk. If I had respected her boundaries, and then respected her right to maintain them with the skills she had, then we could have stayed close.

Your topic here is going From Child to Adult Relationship.  When I think about your days in school, and how close you and your brother were, I see there were almost no boundaries between you.  You were more like a social couple, one unit, than two separate siblings.  Family systems styles evolve as families grow and change.  There is a family systems style called "enmeshed." Enmeshed families have open or fluid boundaries.  When you and your brother were close, there was no privacy, and you each felt you got a say in the other's private affairs as if they were their own.  Your brother still feels he has a say in your marriage, and you want and deserve a boundary from that.

As he left school and you got older, your family style changed.  You were supposed to became more separate individuals, instead of the unit.  I think the adjustment from one to two was difficult for both of you, but absolutely necessary for you to have other adult relationships.  Your brother said he felt his first year of marriage was interfered with.  When you had a bad relationship with your ex, or when you didn't have one, he may have felt like he was supposed to still be "one" with you.  But he had to form a new social unit, that of he and his wife.  I imagine he went through a lot of internal struggle when he had to extract from you. And its possible SIL felt like you were wanting to share DB (her husband) and like any new bride, she doesn't want to have such open boundaries, lack of privacy, to that degree, with anyone else except her spouse.

Mature people with a different set of skills would have been able to maintain their boundaries without getting snappish, or even nasty.  But DB and SIL were-are not mature.  So they use the tools that a child has - yelling, lying, throwing elbows, as it were.   In an attempt to extract themselves from enmeshment (families with young children are enmeshed, it is healthy to be enmeshed in that stage, but not much past it) into a healthy relationship with actual boundaries.  To get from enmeshed to "flexibly connected" or another appropriate adult family style requires grace and skill.  If your DB lacks these, he may just be able to go from enmeshed to disengaged.

The book Boundaries by Cloud & Townsend can help explain why healthy boundaries help relationships, and how to use them.

Here's a chart of family styles: http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/PS1012/images/circumplexmap.jpg

(Another link related to family systems theory: http://www.webofloneliness.com/publications/critical/systems_theory.htm )

AnonymousDIL

Quote from: Sassy on May 21, 2011, 05:22:04 AM
If you invite DB and SIL to game night, and they pass on the invitation, would you or DH ask them, "Why not" or "Why can't you come?"    Would them saying "No, but thank you" be enough?

When I originally asked, SIL's response was "That's my brother's b-day party." Her sister, my BFF "That's my brother's b-day but I don't know what day we are celebrating yet, I'll get back to you."... Okay, I didn't say anything to either of them except maybe "Bummer, maybe next time" kind of thing. I must say that I viewed SIL's response as a lie because the party wasn't planned yet (I sent the text to all the people on the list at once so it wasn't like I asked SIL and THEN asked BFF.)... I was VERY disappointed. I know I said as much to DH because they have never come to one of our game nights, but we are expected to go to all of theirs. (Our house is larger and more comfortable for hosting, which I think annoys my DB.) I DID NOT say anything to them.

When the time of the game night finally came around, I saw SIL's post on her DB's wall about seeing them for his party the next day. Hmmm.... I saw this as yet another lie and passive agressively (wrong I know) updated my status about loving it when I catch people in lies on FB. Yes, this was VERY immature of me and I shouldn't have done it. ... Anywho, I told DH, he asked if I wanted to re-extend the invite to them and I told him NO because I didn't want to see them. Well, DH went BEHIND my back and texted SIL. She told him "No, we are going to my brother's party." And DH called her a liar. ... (Incidentally she hadn't seen my FB status update until well after this. If I had known DH was going to pull this baloney I would have taken it down.)

Soooo, I was disappointed that they weren't coming to begin with, and I did assume it was a lie, but I figure it was because they just didn't want to come to our house.

As far as their boundaries with us, I just don't give them any info from our side lol. And they no longer gave info on their side and I certainly wasn't asking. It is interesting to note that my BFF (SIL's sister) lives with them.... Guess boundaries are only for DB's side of the family.  :-\

Sassy

I guess the question wasn't that important.  It's a bigger picture than that.  I still think the manners education will make dealing with them, and their rudeness, easier for you.  The great thing about manners is you can use them even when someone else doesn't.   Anyway, I hope you read the rest, and checked out the link on different family styles.  Pertaining to your broader topic of "From Child to Adult Relationships" changing family styles as we grow, naturally can create growing pains.  Especially with mismatched expectations.  Yesterday I thought I saw a lot of self-blame from you, I ached for you.  I hoped a tangible explanation of at least part of what seemed to be going on (changing family styles) could help you see the dynamic more objectively as natural, and not somuch with blame or fault for either side.  Take care and have a peaceful lovely weekend...

AnonymousDIL

Anywho, my point.... I'll definitely look into a modern ettiquette book and read it to DH as weel since he is the one who started this whole mess. I felt that I (apparently not DH) had maintained pretty healthy boundaries(at least since last Oct. lol) with DB/SIL. SIL used to be very open with me. She and DB were trying to have a kid and running into lots of problems. I NEVER asked because quite frankly I don't really care to know any of the details. If I were in her shoes I wouldn't have been sharing the details she was sharing. Her family is more open about sex lives and that sort of thing, I am NOT! (I swear, I have no idea why she felt the need to share that kind of info.)

Soooo, it's weird I didn't feel like she set up any boundaries with me until I got married. Not when she got married, when I got married. Do you think it is just because they don't like my DH? (which is obvious by the fact that DB has stated it lol). Do you think it is because they feel that HE isn't respecting their boundaries (which he obviously isn't-- I don't care how things are done in his family. Talk about enmeshed! Sheesh!).

Does it seem possible that because they don't like DH and don't want to let him into the "circle" that they feel I need to be out now? They have repeatedly told me that I've done nothing wrong (and they don't want to cut "me" off), but the just can't trust DH (i.e. "WE" are a unit, but you and your husband aren't allowed to be a unit). Unfortunately, I don't know how it got to this point or if there is any way of fixing it. DB believes that DH is a liar and nothing will change that belief.

Their "hatred" is for DH's whole family. BIL through the bachelor party. They were shooting skeet and targets. So he divided the ammo cost between the GM's and split DH's portion amoung them. DB had a royal fit. "They are trying to get me to pay for the whole thing!" So, DB didn't go. DH was crushed. We ended up paying my brother's share. And no, we never told him. Unfortunately, my DB continues to bring the bachelor party up. One of these times I'm going to end up telling him.

I guess these are just growing pains for the new family. I'll check out a book and DH and I will work through it together.

SassyDI

ADIL I think you need to just stop worrying about if they show up or  not.  Honestly it will at least make you feel better.  I host parties at my house all the time I invite my one BIL and his boyfriend(the other two live out of state) and my sister and FBIL.  My sister has showen up once and I just don't view it as a snide I just know she is busy.  MY BIL and his boyfriend are kind of the same way.  And its ok because I don't let myself stress about it. 

I use to stress about Christmas.  I am the kind of person who doesn't extend an invitation to other's if they have been asked by someone else.  FIL wife does Christmas Day sometimes too and if she already invite people I back off.  FIL Wife not so much when we invited the whole family (including them) for DD first Christmas she refused to come.  So she decided not caring that i had invited everyone had her own Christmas party.  The family showed up to my house and was going to their father's too but he got sick so he was in the hospital.  That was the last Christmas I hosted because I wasn't going to stress myself every year.  So I switched it to a breakfast Christmas Eve morning.  She then tries to take over that too.  Last year I invited just the sibs and it was fun but still I felt stressed because BIL tried to take it over.  So you know what I am not doing any Christmas for his side anymore they can come visit when they want whatever time they want.  My DH doesn't care because well he told me to stop years ago (Before DD was born)doing Christmas.  because he didn't like the stress it caused him.  So the lesson here girl just stop caring or just stop inviting them all together for you own sake.

AnonymousDIL

Thanks, Sassy....

I definitely have a LOT of self-blame because I have pretty much NO self-esteem. lol ... Growing up, it was obvious in my family. DB was PERFECT and could do no wrong and well, I was in trouble all the time. I was told that "we" didn't get invited places very often because people didn't like me and when we did the people just put up with me becuse they like the rest of the family.... I think that why I have such a hard time making friends. I do have some friends and I know they love me just the way I am so this "belief" isn't true, but part of me (especially when hit with rejection from my DB) still thinks it is true... He even told me that in college.  :-\

I'll admit, I am not always "tactful" and I am more than a little blunt. (I can be VERY diplomatic at times, but I have to work hard to be that way lol). Diplomacy comes natural to my DB. He would be a great politician. He LIES and tells you just what you want to hear. We are complete polar opposites. I don't have enough confidence in myself and he has waaaaay too much. I finally got a little vindication when he "attacked" one of our mutual friends. Finally someone else sees him as he really is.

AnonymousDIL

SassyDI, it took me a sec to realize it was the "other" sassy lol... I thought, Wow, she has a FILW too! LOL

My SIL does the "take-over" too. Annoying as I don't know what! She will play hostess when she is at MY house/event. Really?

Sassy

Quote Do you think it is because they feel that HE isn't respecting their boundaries (which he obviously isn't-- I don't care how things are done in his family. Talk about enmeshed! Sheesh!).

Have you observed that DH doesn't respect DB and SIL's boundaries? (Other than this latest instance?)  Because sure, boundary stomping, even when done with the intentions of trying to bring someone close, can certainly be rude.  Which will make people uncomfortable and want to avoid being treated rudely.  As you may have observed for yourself, with some of DH's family.

QuoteDoes it seem possible that because they don't like DH and don't want to let him into the "circle" that they feel I need to be out now?

I was also looking around for the quote that DB doesn't like DM's BF either but can't find it.  I think it was you who wrote that. Jealousy is a real possibility.  But, I was also wondering about loss of control.  Your DB obviously had control over you for a long time.   (And not always in a good way, and for that I am very very sorry).  From that I suppose it's possible DB may then see you as "someone to be controlled," and thus he could perceive DH as "the one controlling you" now, instead of him.  Same with DM and BF?  Like those other men took away his power to control?  Look, this is a random shot in the dark about DB, but have you ever read anything about OCPD?  (not OCD). 

AnonymousDIL

I can't think of any difinitive examples of DH overstepping boundaries with them at this moment. DB and DH are very different in personality and skills. Before DH came along, DB really was top dog in the group. DB was the only one anyone ever asked for advice on anything--even auto repairs, plumbing, etc. Well, DB knows squat about those areas, but everyone thinks that he knows. Well, DH actually KNOWS this stuff. I really think that DB is threatened by DH.

DH's family is more "upfront" and "blunt"? I think those are the terms I want lol... If you state something and don't know what you are talking about, DH's family will tell you so. Whereas, in DB's circle, we will agree that DB is right even if he isn't because his cranky attitude isn't worth dealing with. The knowledge that he is wrong even if he won't admit it is enough.

I think your point that he desires control over DM/I is very astute. When DF passed, he became the "man of the house." and I think it went to his head. DM was out of it for quite a while and DB pretty much took care of everything.