Grandchildren ask for help because SIL hits them with belt

[AnonymousDIL]

know we're not supposed to talk religion here, but please don't use religious text to imply things about my relationship with my daughter that are on their face a lie.

I am sorry, Holli. I was not implying anything about your relationship with your daughter. I was asked to explain myself, and I did. I even commented that I know not everyone believes the way that I do, but I was asked, so I answered. I am sorry that it offended you.

[Rose799]

It sounds to me like you are sparing the rod, Adil.  The problem is that as they grow, the tendency is to ratchet things up a notch when mistakes are repeated.  And then what do you do when they're as big, if not bigger than you? 

The most difficult lesson I learned as a parent was to "say what you mean & mean what you say."  I quickly learned to dole out threats sparingly because I hated having to carry them out. 

[justus]

I don't know Holli, I have seen CPS walk away from even more serious cases than this without following up. I do hope there is an investigation, at least some parenting classes mandated and that this is a wake up call for the Ps, but I am not holding my breath. Obviously the SIL has some anger issues, and probably needs to deal with the abuse he suffered as a child.

The thing is, now Rose is on the outside and cannot be there for her GCs who obviously need her. In her place, you bet I would do what I needed to do to get back in. Kiss behind, you bet!! Crawl on my knees? Do you want me to crawl on that glass? OK, no problem. And, I would educate myself as to what is technically abuse, what the protocols are for reporting, and I would have a plan in place just in case. I might even speak to a lawyer. I would make sure that I was not looking for any reason to cry "ABUSE!" but would be as helpful and supportive as I could to my DD so that she knows I love her and want the best for her. It is a fine line to walk, but one worth walking.

I understand the P's anger. They don't see how what they are doing is wrong. It is what SIL was raised with and he turned out OK , so what is the problem? I hope they can get past their anger and understand that Rose did what she needed to do to protect her GCs, and that it is better to use this as a learning experience rather than let it tear the family apart.

As far as corporal punishment, I really don't consider it abuse depending on how it is used, and I say that reluctantly. But, it is a fine line between a spanking and a beating. It is a line that is easily crossed, it is one that I never wanted to get close to, and certainly would never allow anyone else near it where my children were concerned. There are so many other very effective ways to discipline children, why use violence? DH said about DS being spanked at school, "The principle lost that round." From then on, DS had no respect for him. If he wanted something from DS, DS was much less likely to do it. DS loved the Vice-principal, who never touched him, but used his brain to deal with DS, who was a handful.

[holliberri]

Okay, I've had a nice long drive home and I think I can talk about this calmly now.

ADil, I don't really think you were implying that and I'm sorry for saying that.

Justus, I agree...I've seen them walk away too, but  not always. It's still a noble attempt at protecting your GKs by trying to get them involved. Plus, after CPS closes their investigation (at least here), the school at least sees the children weekly to ensure CPS doesn't need to be called again.

I also agree that Rose isn't in a position where she can keep a close eye on them, so I would probably be trying to maintain a line of contact as well, as well as to try and persuade DD that this might be a situation she needs to change or walk away from.

I believe that many parents successfully use corporal punishment with no adverse affect, but if bruises are left behind they warrant investigation. CPS may decide it's abuse, they may not, but what they decide is totally beyond control.

I do take offense when someone says that without hitting my child I won't raise respectful children or they won't have enough discipline. It's wrong. I don't fault you for your parenting techniques, please don't fault me for mine. I've thought long and hard about how to discipline my daughter, and for me, hitting isn't an option.

[holliberri]

*and by Rose, I really mean Fordell.

[Rose799]

The thing is, now Rose is on the outside and cannot be there for her GCs who obviously need her.

Thankfully, it involved other relatives, not gc, justus... 

[Rose799]

For the dil's...  Before I was a Mom

http://wilk4.com/humor/humors3.htm

[Pooh]

To spank or not to spank has always been a huge controversy between parents, and probably always will be.  It is always going to be the choice of the parent and should be. 

I was raised with spankings, paddling, beltings and switchings.  My Mother is the most loving, caring, giving parent...but she did all this.  Why?  Because I was a precocious child that just didn't learn.  She tried everything with me, and about the only thing that worked was getting my rear-end wore out.  She very rarely left bruises with hand paddling, wood paddling or belts, but switches would leave welts.  I got what ADIL was saying, because usually when marks were left, it was because I was trying to run or move out of the way, and it caused her to miss her mark.

One time, when I was 15, I went riding in a car with a girl I knew, and 2 boys I didn't know.  I was not supposed to leave the place my Mother dropped me off and when all was said and done, they dropped me off about 10 miles from where I was supposed to be, at a gas station.  They were jerks and I got out of the car and had to call my Mother.  That was the longest 20 minutes of my life waiting on her.  I knew I was in big trouble.  When she got there, and I got in the car, I turned to her crying and wanting a hug.  What I got was a slap so hard across my face, my head whipped around.  She had been terrified when I wasn't where I was supposed to be, imagining me lying dead in a ditch.  When I called, she was so scared and angry, that was the first thing she did.  Was that abuse?  No.  Some of you may say yes, but I don't think so.  It was her reaction to a dangerous situation I put myself in.  This was not normal and never happened again.  I was a model teenager after that and it was because I knew if I did something like that again, she would knock the crap out of me again.  Was I afraid of her?  No.  Was I afraid of getting slapped again?  You betcha. 

I raised my Sons with very few spankings.  They probably got maybe 3 or 4 their entire lives.  I didn't do it until all other efforts had been exhausted first, but they knew I would do it so they learned not to test those limits and I ended up with well behaved children. 

There is discipline, and there is abuse.  IMO, discipline can turn into abuse when it is a continuous pattern of injury or used as intimidation to be afraid of a person.  I was never afraid of my Mother, but I was afraid of my punishment.  I was afraid of disappointing her again.  That is discipline in whatever form you choose.

This is like arguing breastfeeding versus bottle feeding, cloth diapers versus disposable.  There is no right or wrong (when we are discussing discipline, not abuse).  It is purely parental choice and we have to remember to respect each others choices.

As far as the original OP, I agree with all the ladies here, go further.  Try everything you can until your efforts are exhausted to protect those children.  It will be the hardest thing you probably ever do, but also the most loving.

[Keys Girl]

I might consider buying one of those videotape cameras that is disguised at a teddy bear or something else and give it to the kids without telling them.  I would like to see exactly what is happening inside the home and that video could be used to contact the police if indeed there is abuse going on.

When I was in school the principal used to beat the worse offenders with a belt but that was almost 50 years ago.  If the kids are coming to you for help, they must be feeling desperate.

What a difficult set of circumstances for everyone.  Sending prayers your way.

[Rejected]

I completely agree with Pooh!! Well said!

[lancaster lady]

I find it hard to discuss this subject without becoming emotional .
The thought of two children being scared and frightened and being beaten makes me feel physically ill .
A smack to deter children from doing wrong , I could maybe live with , but the thought of a grown man taking off his belt to beat his children fills me with horror !
as I said before in this post , he would be in jail now in  this country , before the public got to him !!

[Mariatobe]

LL - I agree with you 100%.  To say this isn't outright child abuse is disgusting.  There is a difference between a small spank on the bum and outright beatings with welts.

[AnonymousDIL]

I might consider buying one of those videotape cameras that is disguised at a teddy bear or something else and give it to the kids without telling them.  I would like to see exactly what is happening inside the home and that video could be used to contact the police if indeed there is abuse going on.

When I was in school the principal used to beat the worse offenders with a belt but that was almost 50 years ago.  If the kids are coming to you for help, they must be feeling desperate.

What a difficult set of circumstances for everyone.  Sending prayers your way.

That is a good idea, but it is illegal in this country to videotape someone  (with the exception of inside your OWN home) without their knowledge. These videos would be inadmissable. Tread Lightly.

[Keys Girl]

I would go talk to the police before the children have to. (See below)


Port Jervis man accused of beating children with belt
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Published: 4:25 PM - 03/10/08

PORT JERVIS — Police arrested a Port Jervis man yesterday for allegedly beating two of his children with a belt, according to Police Chief William Worden.

Timothy Smedley, 47, is facing felony counts of assault stemming from the incident and police say the two children suffered welts and bruises. The police were alerted to the incident when one of the children ran into the police station looking for help.

Smedley is being held in Orange County Jail. His bond was set at $5,000.

Stephen Sacco

[tryingmybest]

I just read through this thread, and it makes me sick. I am all for letting the SIL and DIL live their lives, but that right ends with child abuse. I agree Keys I'd file a report with the police. And ADIL, the attitude of "no one has the right to tell me what to do in my family" leads to both child abuse and spousal abuse every day, and to tie it to "Christian attitudes?" whoa you lost me there girl..