Lost for Words

[LaurieS]

LL started her original posting by being honest about the fact that she may have gone overboard on purchases for the new baby.  I've also found her to be insightful concerning her role in a miscued statement that I thought she said that she apologized for numerous times.  While she did not dissect her every thought, motive, and intention, I thought that she gave enough information to show some balance towards the relationship.

Does LL own any responsibility for her issues at hand.. absolutely.  There are always things we could have/would have/should have done better, if only hindsight was an option.  I still feel that once a person decides to build a wall around themselves to keep others out, that it's pretty hard to remain totally aloof in your approach. 

LL, the general consciences here is to take the good from what we say and leave the rest.  I'm sure that you fully understand that there are things you can and must change in order to try and have a normal relationship with your son and his family.  Stick around here, I'm sure that one day something that someone says will make perfect sense and you will grow from there.  I also wish you good luck.. we all need it

[lancaster lady]

We are damned if we do and damned if we don't .....does anyone ever get it right ??

[LaurieS]

We are damned if we do and damned if we don't .....does anyone ever get it right ??

Honestly... no .. but life isn't always about getting it right.. it's doing it well

[Faithlooksup]

Hi Lancaster lady,  Doing it right and doing it well are the same thing.....and you are doing it right!!

Peace and Hugs, Faith

[luise.volta]

And of course all of that depends on definitions of right and well. Not necessarily official definitions...but our own perceptions of what they mean.

[MrsKitty]

Hi. I just wanted to say that I agree, LL, that you need to own some of the responsibility for the problem with your DIL. I see that you and your DIL used to get along--this means that she is not an evil woman who is out to get you. If she is, how is it that you used to get along with her? I think you are being much too sensitive on certain issues, like dissecting why she puts pictures up of her baby on facebook. She has made the same mistake--assuming that something you said on facebook was meant for her. You think it's odd that she thinks that your comment, which had nothing to do with her, upset her. I'm sure she would think it is equally odd that you believe that some boundaries or behaviors she has displayed (while hormonal and adjusting to being new mom) were directed at you--I don't think they are. I think you are both being WAY too sensitive and thinking that every little thing that the other woman does is meant as a slight toward you. It isn't.

You want your DIL to believe that you have had only the best intentions and you have accidentally overstepped or inadvertently caused hurt feelings. Can't you believe the same of her? That she also had the best intentions and she may have accidentally caused hurt feelings? I think that many of the problems between MILs and DILs can be improved greatly if, when we have a problem for the first time, we don't assume that the other side is plotting destruction and purposefully out to get us.

[Pen]

All I can do is relate what happened to me and my family - DIL was charming and accepting before the wedding and made a 180 degree turn immediately after. No, she's not evil, but she purposely did some very hurtful things to DH, DD & me. During that dark period in our relationship she called us horrible names, declared she hated us, and tried to eliminate any trace of us from her & DS's life. We were very hurt and confused, since by her own admission we'd done and said nothing wrong - she simply hated our existence. I do believe she was "plotting our destruction" or at the very least hoping and praying we'd disappear.

We had no recourse. We couldn't apologize, we couldn't make any overtures at all...all we could do was wait for DS to step up. As you all know from hearing me go on and on about it ad nauseum, DS did step up and we are all finally building a relationship.

All of you wonderful DILs may have difficulty believing that such a scenario is true since you wouldn't have ever made such a sharp, instant change in your treatment of your ILs. I was in shock myself since I wouldn't have done such a thing as a DIL either...but happen it did, and apparently it happens more often than we might imagine.

When such a change has occurred, or when one is mistreated from the get-go, it can cause one's emotions to be raw & sensitive. It's easy to pick apart every little communication and find the intentional (or unintentional) slights, especially if one is confused about being treated poorly in the first place. Now that my DIL has changed back to her charming, accepting self again, I don't look for those hurtful words and it's easier to let those I do question slide away.

[holliberri]

 

[/I don't know if I am being tested or not but future DIL is posting photos of my granddaughter on FB. Is this to make me feel bad at what I am missing ,or to keep me in touch ? Probably the latter

LL is admitting that she thinks the photos posted on FB are to keep her in touch. I think she is just acknowledging that she felt like she was being tested, not that she actually was being tested. I think she's taken a lot of responsibility; a slip of the tongue doesn't deserve ongoing punishment, especially given that an apology was issued. As for the holidays, it was one year, and when changes are made, our feelings don't always allow us to react the way we should; she says she snapped, but she didn't say what it was that she said. I think she is half admitting that she maybe could've said something different; but that doesn't mean she needs to take on responsibility for the entire thing, especially once communication gets going again.

I've been gnawing on this since yesterday morning, and I'm going to be careful here, b/c I know I was talking about alienation earlier. That could be what is going on, but it might not be. LL, you admit that you're prideful. To me, all that means is that when you're ready, you'll make the move, if you feel that is what she is waiting for. You need to sort through your feelings then decide if you're up to making the first move. While I do think you're taking an awful lot of responsibility for what happened, neither of you can move forward until you start talking to one another, which could be what she meant by "she needs to talk to me." It is hard for us to say (we're only on the internet after all), but that statement isn't synonymous with alienation; yes, it means she isn't making the first move, but it is still an opportunity for communication, b/c she left that door open for you to come through. (Of course, if she's shutting you down during communication, I am afraid that you're in a losing battle, but that bridge hasn't been crossed yet). Some women on here have been totally shut down; they'e been told not to talk to DS or DD; you still have something to work with for repair, if you choose.

If you have 4 years of a good relationship, that's a lot more than the rest of us have, and I think that means that you have a good solid foundation to work out your differences. Give it some time and space, and see how you feel and if you're up for a reconcilation. Then, communicating can begin. I think there is a possibility that this was all a big misunderstanding and that you'll all come out on the other end just  fine. But, you said yourself she did this with DS's best friend. If this appears to be an ongoing pattern with you once you've tried communication, it is time for you to start trying to give yourself what you're not getting from others, and the very first thing on that list, is respect. 

I really do wish you the best of luck, I'll be thinking about this. I know you're already overwhelmed as it is, and sorting through all of our opinions can add to that sometimes. None of us mean any harm, and we're here for support.

[MrsKitty]

Hi Pen-
I am very sorry for what happened in your family. From what LL says here, I don't think this is the dynamic she is experiencing. It is true what you say--"It is easy to pick apart every little communication and find the intentional or unintentional slights"--what I would like to do is encourage LL not to do that --not to pick apart every communication and turn it into something it is not. If she does, she'll only further upset herself and the estrangement will grow. I once had a HUGE dust up with my MIL over something she did. The sad part was, the thing she did WAS intentional and she and DH actually lied to try to cover their tracks    I got over this problem with her because she acknowledged it eventually and apologized and I told myself that even though she had done wrong and lied about it to boot, she was acting from a place of fear and insecurity rather than a desire to destroy me. I still feel upset about it every once in awhile, but then I think, hey, we are all human and we all do really stupid things sometimes. All I can do is my best and hope that others will also do theirs.

@Holliberri- My goal is not to dissect LL and give her a running tally of what she has done wrong and what she hasn't done wrong--I don't think that is productive because we can possibly know or understand all the communications that have gone back and forth between LL and her DIL. There are probably a few things that the DIL would bring up that would never occur to LL as problems and vice versa. What I think is productive is to acknowledge that she owns part of this problem and therefore she is responsible to try to fix it. If LL does own that--GREAT! She has taken a first step toward her DIL instead of away from her. LL can't control her DIL's actions, she can only control her own. The best she can do is approach her DIL with an open heart, tell her that she wants to fix things and do what she can to build a healthy relationship.

[holliberri]

All I can do is relate what happened to me and my family - DIL was charming and accepting before the wedding and made a 180 degree turn immediately after. No, she's not evil, but she purposely did some very hurtful things to DH, DD & me. During that dark period in our relationship she called us horrible names, declared she hated us, and tried to eliminate any trace of us from her & DS's life. We were very hurt and confused, since by her own admission we'd done and said nothing wrong - she simply hated our existence. I do believe she was "plotting our destruction" or at the very least hoping and praying we'd disappear.

We had no recourse. We couldn't apologize, we couldn't make any overtures at all...all we could do was wait for DS to step up. As you all know from hearing me go on and on about it ad nauseum, DS did step up and we are all finally building a relationship.

All of you wonderful DILs may have difficulty believing that such a scenario is true since you wouldn't have ever made such a sharp, instant change in your treatment of your ILs. I was in shock myself since I wouldn't have done such a thing as a DIL either...but happen it did, and apparently it happens more often than we might imagine.

When such a change has occurred, or when one is mistreated from the get-go, it can cause one's emotions to be raw & sensitive. It's easy to pick apart every little communication and find the intentional (or unintentional) slights, especially if one is confused about being treated poorly in the first place. Now that my DIL has changed back to her charming, accepting self again, I don't look for those hurtful words and it's easier to let those I do question slide away.

Pen,

I really do believe this happens, but what I am shocked about is that your DIL would admit that you and DH didn't do anything wrong! The fact that you guys can come forward, and she can be honest about what she did, while saying that you and DH didn't have any culpability, floors me. I think thats the hardest part of all to believe (at least for  me). I know you all still are in the early, precious stages of repair, but her acknowledgement of this is huge. I think you also built a good foundation early on, so you all can come through okay in the end. Please don't think I'm defending her, b/c I'm not, I just find it wonderful that she would do those things and then be strong enough to say, yes, I did this (I'm sure she came to this conclusion with a lot encouragement from DS, but still...).

That is why I'm trying to toe the line b/c I know LL could have a serious problem on her hands, but on the other hand it could be nothing. It is so hard to tell right now, and you have the benefit of hindsight.

I'm going to share some, and bare with me, I have a point:

At our first Christmas with the ILs, my DH was sick and couldn't talk. She wouldn't take him to the hospital (I didn't have my car) b/c the doctor said it wasn't dangerous (but it turns out it was life threatening, we just weren't giving him an accurate list of symptoms). She wouldn't give the papers over to me to fill out but insisted on filling them out herself and asking him questions that he couldn't answer. I knew all of the answers already, but she wouldn't hand the papers over. She cried when he took me into the ER with him and not her.

Then crisis #2, our best friend died overseas, while we were on a visit with them. We wanted to fly back, but she was upset b/c it was cutting into our family time, and wouldn't hear of it. We let her have her way, missed a memorial and then when the vacation was up, she stomped her foot and cried b/c we decided to see if we could stay longer over here to go to his stateside memorial. That meant traveling back to my parents house (it was a lot closer to the memorial), and biding our time. She said that I saw my family too  much and it wasn't fair; and that if we were taking more time off, it should  be with her, not my family. It had nothing to do with my family, it was our best friend that died.  I regret not going to his memorial service, and we both needed closure so desperately then, but we couldn't see that b/c of her feelings. We bagged that idea and headed for our new home across country, just so we wouldn't make waves.

It came to a head when DD was finally born, but it didn't get anywhere. DH asked her not to overstimulate the baby and that when DD is fussy, less is more. She cried and said she'd never touch the baby again, and that I make everything a power struggle. I'm not making it one, it IS one. I didn't sleep for 3 days after that b/c I didn't think what he said was a big deal, but we hurt her anyway; I was worried about her feelings, not mine, DH's or DDs. I was told by DH that we were at our "limit" of issues with his parents, and that I can't say anything if I don't like what she's doing with DD (except, mind you, he was the one that spoke up about DD, not me, and I've never brought up the last two issues at all, which is why they stew, I think).

It is hard for me to let go of all of this, and I view all of these incidents squarely as control issues. DH says that she's too sensitive and we would only hurt her feelings, so I've been asked not to bring any issues with her ever. So, what can I do? I react by avoidance. I know my DD needs a relationship with her GPs, she is entitled to it, but I do try to limit the time involved. Frankly, the less I see them the better. Is it right? Absolutely not. But just b/c we can't talk about issues doesn't make them go away; they are there and ever present when we're all together. To me, the only feelings that are valid in this scenario, are hers, not mine, not DH's, and not even my DDs.  This is not a comfortable situation for me to be in, so the worst thing that I can do seems to be the only thing I can do. I'm at a loss. She was devastated that we wouldn't move near them when I opted for law school, but the truth is, I can't do it. I couldn't live like this on a regular basis.

I'm rambling, but my point is that I know DILs do try to elminate ILs from their lives; I think I've done it for different reasons, and it doesn't make it right. I react poorly to a situation simply b/c I don't know what else to do. To just do it for no reason like your DIL did is just beyond me. I'm not sure who would want to live like this if they can communicate with their ILs, like your DIL and DS seemed to have been able to do. I know it was awful going through, but someday I hope to be on the road to recovery like you seem to be. 

[holliberri]

@Holliberri- My goal is not to dissect LL and give her a running tally of what she has done wrong and what she hasn't done wrong--I don't think that is productive because we can possibly know or understand all the communications that have gone back and forth between LL and her DIL. There are probably a few things that the DIL would bring up that would never occur to LL as problems and vice versa. What I think is productive is to acknowledge that she owns part of this problem and therefore she is responsible to try to fix it. If LL does own that--GREAT! She has taken a first step toward her DIL instead of away from her. LL can't control her DIL's actions, she can only control her own. The best she can do is approach her DIL with an open heart, tell her that she wants to fix things and do what she can to build a healthy relationship.

I wasn't trying to dissect either, in fact, in my post I admit that those of us seeing this on the internet don't know everything. My point was, that LL has apologized, and she does admit that things could've been done differently. I wholeheartedly agree that the fix to this is communication between MIL and DIL; I'm a huge proponent of communication. However, LL seems concerned that there might be more to the picture, and I was just trying to point out that if she does in fact try to communicate openly and is shut down repeatedly, that she might need to try something else and accept that the problem is not, in fact, her. I think you and I actually see eye to eye on this Mrs.Kitty, but being wary of the worst possibility still seems prudent when I read stories like Pen's.

[MrsKitty]

@HB. Agreed. I also think that it is important for LL to tell anyone who has jumped into this argument between the two of them (I think she said her daughter and siblings?) to back off. It is only helpful to build up allies if one is looking for a war. I don't think that is LL's intention, so she needs to tell these individuals to back off and that they're not helping--they're hurting a situation that is really not their concern.

[cremebrulee]

Mrs.Kitty
You post was honest, objective and right on in a lot of cases.
In my case...and I'm talking to you directly...DIL and I had totally different perceptions of what happened....I don't believe she lied, and I didn't lie, and honestly believe she knows that now...but there was a time, when she was so hurt, that she thought I was trying to break up they're marriage...it's all about how one perceives a situation...I thought she was trying to drive a wedge between my son and myself, and scared, oh, you bet I was...I couldn't understand why she was treating me the way she was....and visa versa...but I cannot tell you in words, the horror of the rejection I felt.

What I'm trying to say, I bet if we all sat down, and shared stories, right along with our DIL's, we would all come away, thinking the other one was lying...why, because of how we hear words...and see things...plus great fear can cause you to see things that are not happening, believe me, I know....I had been very close to my son, and I think now, depended on him way to much for my happiness....and when he married, I thought she would immediately accept my love for her...at that time, there were no forums on line like this....and when someone tried to help me look at it objectively, I would become very frustrated, b/c I thought they were saying, "it is your fault"....it was like they wouldn't believe me, and I honestly felt I didn't do anything, and wanted to believe she was evil....she was not evil...not in the least...so, just so you know, you are dead on target with this post....thank you for  sharing....and I do feel, a lot of relationships, not all, but most, could be fixed if only we were able to accept this fact....that we all perceive things differently, and we all have our own cultures....plus, a MIL is so used to being in charge, that she forgets, when she was first married, how young and immature she was, how she was so excited to start her own family, her own traditions....and to have a MIL, advise, and I'm speaking about my own MIL, was like telling me, I was doing it wrong...sometimes, the slightest little thing she would do or say, would rub me the wrong way...now I can understand, but then I couldn't...

A lot of times, we hear others say, our son's love us unconditionally, well, as long as they are under our roofs, they have to, it's human nature to do so, but how utterly foolish I was to believe, that this stranger, who was now a part of my son's life, would love me unconditionally...without her first getting to know me, my ways, rubbed her the wrong way...and I can be very very strong willed...matronly, because I had been in charge for all those years....

We all have a negative and positive side, we all have tiny little things that bother us....we can be giving, but we can take a person who disagrees with us, totally wrong....because we get hurt, or offended, thinking they are telling us we are wrong, and we are not....no one is, it's simply about trying to get along with each other, and the longer we remain stubborn about that, the worse we make it on o ourselves....this is a no win situation...in the end, our son's will side with they're wives...for many reasons....

My son and I are still very close, however, it is b/c I now try very hard to respect boundaries...and think of my DIL as an equal, and someone who has her own ideas of how she sees a marriage, how she sees in-laws, and what she wants out of life, and the rest is none of my business....that is the way I wanted to be treated, why should she be any different? 

My post is a generalization and in no way written in stone for every relationship out there...

as far as putting baby pictures up on FB, it's something everyone does...they are proud of they're children and want to share pictures of family with they're friends...it is actually very natural to do so....

Creme

[lancaster lady]

I appreciate all your support with my own problems and feel for you with all your own problems .
I realise one of us ,that is myself and my DIL will have to make a move towards reconciliation however I feel I am still hurting and feeling a bit raw .So for the many of you who have advised space at the moment this feels right to me at this time .I am still talking to my DS on a regular basis and he sent me a photo of my GC today .I know he is desperate for this to end and it will but I feel we both need a little cooling off period . then I think we should perhaps start again without any reference to what has gone before .Hopefullly when this happens it will be a new start for us .I will however ask that if she thinks I am at fault she should say .Likewise I should be able to mention any wrongdoings towards me .With a bit of luck neither of us will take offence .
As mentioned before I have asked to see my GC on her first birthday ...or around that day .Maybe this will be the icebreaker we need .She still has to agree for me to see her first .I am ever hopeful .

Mrs K ..My daughter was told at the onset to not get involved ! However when her mother is being verbally abused it's hard to make a grown woman back off .It was wrong for her to get involved but when she sees her mom in tears ,her instincts took over .No one else is involved now till things are worked out .
I wish I could turn the clock back but whats done is done .

[cremebrulee]

@Holliberri- My goal is not to dissect LL and give her a running tally of what she has done wrong and what she hasn't done wrong--I don't think that is productive because we can possibly know or understand all the communications that have gone back and forth between LL and her DIL. There are probably a few things that the DIL would bring up that would never occur to LL as problems and vice versa. What I think is productive is to acknowledge that she owns part of this problem and therefore she is responsible to try to fix it. If LL does own that--GREAT! She has taken a first step toward her DIL instead of away from her. LL can't control her DIL's actions, she can only control her own. The best she can do is approach her DIL with an open heart, tell her that she wants to fix things and do what she can to build a healthy relationship.

I wasn't trying to dissect either, in fact, in my post I admit that those of us seeing this on the internet don't know everything. My point was, that LL has apologized, and she does admit that things could've been done differently. I wholeheartedly agree that the fix to this is communication between MIL and DIL; I'm a huge proponent of communication. However, LL seems concerned that there might be more to the picture, and I was just trying to point out that if she does in fact try to communicate openly and is shut down repeatedly, that she might need to try something else and accept that the problem is not, in fact, her. I think you and I actually see eye to eye on this Mrs.Kitty, but being wary of the worst possibility still seems prudent when I read stories like Pen's.

Holli, you make very good points...but I also think it is so important to get everyone's point of view...so that the op can go back and conclude for herself...everyone's input is so important...and I say this, b/c I am still learning from you and everyone here, and feel it is essential for all of us, to gain from everyone's point of view...otherwise, this forum wouldn't work, but it does, and is better then any other forum out there, concerning MIL's/DIL's troubles...you to, have made some very good points, thank you