Question: is grandparenting a privledge that must be won nowadays?

[Marilyn]

Pen,your life style does not.... equate to being untrustworthy

Letting  your kids experience different life styles is very healthy,each grandparent can offer different things that make them more well rounded,and builds charactor.It shows them love doesn't equate to what you have,material things.And it shows them family is whats really important,not money.

I agreed with scoop,because parents should decide who kids spend time with.I didn't allow my kids to stay overnight with any other kids,if i didn't know their parents well,if they were responsible and wouldn't let them do things that could get them in harms way.I dont think any Grandparent would risk the chance of letting their Grandkids get harmed.I know there are some grandparents that would disregard certain request of them,but not many.They should at least be given the chance,unless it would be just way too risky too.Never because they dont have money,or as nice of things.............that is very,very shallow

[Scoop]

Oh Pen - I'm so sorry your DIL feels that way.  I also think it's funny that you put us in the same category, because I do judge my IL's on how they treat their dog.  But it's because they treat her like a show dog.  She's only good as long as she's trimmed and brushed and white as snow.  She's not allowed to get dirty, she's not allowed to play.  MIL brushes her harshly until she screams - because she has to look pretty.  Ugh.

It's too bad that your DIL and DS can't see the value of having a rural connection.  I would LOVE for my DD to be able to spend time at a farm (even a hobby farm) and see the work that goes into providing us with food.

I have mixed feelings about the GP's as strangers, because on some levels they are.  My IL's have made themselves strangers to us.  However, I love my SIL (Dh's sister) like she's my own sister.  I talk to her more than I talk to my brother.  I have no problem leaving DD with her and her family overnight.  My brother and his family - not so much.

I see it more as a circle of inclusion, where no one gets a free pass.  And if I'm honest here, I would say not even my DH.  I am the epitome of Mama Bear (while still trying NOT to be a helicopter parent).

[Pen]

I know I'm touchy on this subject. As a mom I don't want you all to think I was lax about who my kids spent time with; I was protective like most other mothers, but the GPs on both sides had as much access as they wanted. As a (potential) GM, I would like to be trusted to be around my (not yet even a gleam) GC. My gut feeling is that we'll be cut off; DIL has set the groundwork.

[Rose]

When I was told that my DH's Uncle was forcing himself on the women and female children in the family and neighbors  I didn't wait to find out first hand.  In this case and many similar circumstances I can see going by reputation.  I also chose to form my own opinion of people but when you are the parent you are not always given the option of getting to know the person on your own. 

I don't think that being a gp should be earned but I do think that gp's should realize that they are not the parents. I was told that I should go to the gp's for holidays every year that after the gp's passed that we could form out own traditions.  Well, the gp's are still alive and my kids are on their own.  When would my time with our traditions happen?  When DD is living a days ride away?  We had our traditions and holiday time and if I hadn't stood up for our time we would have had none.  We had birthday parties for our kids and we wanted their actual birthdays to be our time.  Nope, that couldn't happen either because we were told they were intitled to that time also.  Then when my MIL got even more dangerous to be around we had to do away with having any party for our kids because my MIL had a tantrum if she didn't get invited.

I don't think it's a privilage you must earn but I also don't think that is alright to think that every special occasion is going to include you or your traditions. That Sunday doesn't mean that they are coming over.  When gp's just assume that they are going to spend so many days per month or every holiday they will attend your traditions or expectations that is when problems start.

I think the expectations set us up to fail in gp relations.  Before assuming maybe discussing expectations without seeming like your placing an order.

[Sunny1]

Sunny1, I'm sorry your mil is disrespectful to you & your hubby.  I still think she should have a chance with future gc.  Maybe she would be totally different with them?  Maybe her gc would soften her in some ways & make her a better person?  One never knows, unless one is given a chance.  Just a thought.

(((((Hugs)))))   Anna.

Sorry that I'm just getting around to answering this, I haven't been on here since I last posted that.
Anyhow, I know it's wishful thinking on your part, but honestly, the woman has already had a lot of chances with us to rectify things. I think scoop said it well when she said, "it's damaging to them to see their parents treated with disrespect.  It teaches them that it's okay to disrespect your parents, and also that it's okay to be treated like that."

If she can't treat me or her own son with respect, she's not getting anywhere near my kid. I wouldn't allow a stranger to treat me like that then let them around my child, why would I let someone around my kid who treats me like dirt just because they're family. Blood may be thicker than water, but just because someone is called part of my family doesn't give them a licence to treat me badly, and any normal parent would protect their kids when they feel it is necessary...I don't trust her, therefore I'm in protective mode.

[Tara]

Wise Women,

I appreciate everyones responses. 

[Scoop]

I added "what other people say" as just a part of my big, long, list of what I use to make my decisions / judgments of people who are going to be involved in my DD's life.  For her first daycare, I called and got references from other parents.  From talking to parents, I glean information about other parents before I send my DD over for play dates.

When my SIL told me that her mother (my MIL) once threw a vase at DH's head when she was in a rage - I took that into consideration.  When SIL told me that MIL once swept everything off of SIL's dresser, smashing some things, in a fit of rage - I listened.  Even more subtle than that, DH does not tell pleasant memories (as stories for DD) from when he was little.  SIL tells some, but they always involve DH doing something "motherly" for her.  So it's all of that, plus what I've seen, plus my gut feelings.

I should mention that I'm not actively trying to keep DD away from the IL's.  They are welcome to visit us more, if they want to.  I have never said 'no' to visiting them, or to phoning them.  However, I do not initiate it.  As for them being alone with her, it's just never "worked out".  I think it would be cruel to tell them outright that it's not going to happen anytime soon.

As for what I'm teaching my DD, I'm teaching her NOT to be a doormat.  I'm trying to teach her that people treat you the way you LET them treat you.  I'm also trying to give her a decent BS detector, so that she can use her own judgment when someone is trying to feed her a line of baloney.

[kathleen]

"

I know I'm touchy on this subject. As a mom I don't want you all to think I was lax about who my kids spent time with; I was protective like most other mothers, but the GPs on both sides had as much access as they wanted. As a (potential) GM, I would like to be trusted to be around my (not yet even a gleam) GC. My gut feeling is that we'll be cut off; DIL has set the groundwork."

Pen, please don't allow anyone to make you feel defensive or "touchy."  You were obviously a good, conscientious parent; don't buy into anyone's attempts to make you feel less than you are.  You don't have to explain your parenting ethics.  They are quite obvious from the considered way you write.

The original question was, "Is grandparenting a privilege that must be won nowadays?"  My final thought is that it can't be won.  MY DIL had long lists of rules and obligations.  They were impossible to meet.  And it was completely one-sided; the day was not far off when my granddaughter would also be making lists and offering me forms to fill out for suitability tests, with the F mark already in before I started.  Parents either see the value of extended family and an expansive concept of love that includes everyone, or they don't.  If family is not a value for the parents in the open way, then this will be taught to the children and they will carry it on. 

The totalitarian style of parenting has an historical thread.  It was very helpful to me listening to that NPR program on Veteran's Day (again, if anyone is interested, it's posted under Gold Star Mothers.)  Anti-MIL is probably partly an outgrowth of the movement against mothers that began in WWII. 

As for my own grandmothers, they opened whole new worlds to me that were much more fascinating than playing with toys with them.  I don't think either one of them ever came to my games, maybe the Christmas pageant.  I didn't care.  I would much prefer to be with them and enter into their worlds, which is how they taught me about life and, mercifully, another way of living beyond my highly critical, iron-willed mother. 

I am lucky my mother didn't decide my dad's mother wasn't good enough to spend time with me; my mother thoroughly disliked her, and made it very clear to all of us how she felt.  Very early on I thought much the lesser of my mother for not keeping her feelings to herself.  My grandmother was widowed at age 30 (grandfather killed by a drunk driver; I never met him) and raised two boys on her own but with help from her own mother.  Her boys became outstanding soldiers and citizens and responsible and loving parents.  She often had to be gone working to raise money and my dad always wished she had been a stay-at-home mom.  But he never denigrated her to us the way my mother did.  Now I realize it was hard on my father to have to listen to that.

But in my mother's supreme judgment, she decided my grandmother had been a poor parent.  Even today my elderly aunt remembers the caustic remarks my mother made openly about Grandma.  Grandma put up with it to be with us.  I had to put up with my mother (who, unfortunately, stayed home) to get through childhood; but I loved---very deeply---my grandmother.

As I've said, children will make their own judgments.  Parents can brainwash them---for a while---but often they will see the truth and begin hiding their feelings from whomever is giving the big lie, that one set of grandparents are totally good and the other set is totally bad.

I would also be interested sometime to see what expressions a grandchild should have toward a grandparent, instead of the other way around.

Hang in there, Pen, better days are coming.

Kathleen

[cremebrulee]

I am a newbie on this forum and have learned a great deal and am very grateful for all the ww here.

But a question arise for me over the weekend about some of the posts and comments like:

"Grandparenting is a privledge  not a right"

and "Privledges are won"

I'm wondering if the ethics/family values of parenting and grandparenting have changed recently?  I am 66 so its been a long
time since I had a child.  But its hard for me to imaging thinking that seeing a grandchild should be a 'privledge" vs a normal
expectation.  Also, that "privledges should be won"  Is visiting your grandchild on a holiday or a bday or at all a "privledge that
must be won"  these days?

We cannot live our dreams through our grand children and children....
It would be nice if they felt and thought the same way we do, and wanted the same things, but they don't.  We also must learn, that they're generation has changed extremely since our generation...Back in our days, we didn't move or travel as much and family was depended upon.  Now a days, it's not...

I work with a gal who has fond memories of her grandmother, who lived with them growing up, however, she also remembers the huge arguments, her mother and grand mother had...

So, what I'm saying is, it's great if the family unit can get along with the extended family unit...however, it seems the more some grandparents get, the more they feel entitled to treat they're grand children like they're own and that tends to offend some DIL's.  Some it doesn't. 

I work with a lot of women who wouldn't care less, however, they're working full time, very busy, with several children, and running them around all over the place to after school activities....they are career women who would give anything to have grand parents like some of you are....

there is one girl who said, she told her mil, when my children are with you, you get to spoil them, however, when your in my home, my children, go by my rules and not yours, reason being, she wants them to understand the concept, different households, different rules....and I think that's fine, and if my DIL said that to me, I would understand, and not take it as a God awful personal attack, but totally understand her wishes...and why, it wasn't meant to hurt anyone, or say that her MIL was wrong, however, it's her rule....so fine....and I really honestly believe in a lot of cases, not all, but career women who are involved in so much more, are more confident and understand a much bigger picture beyond taking things so personal...? They are way to busy to obsess over small stuff until they become so big it starts to dictate the unhappiness in they're lives....they don't analyze every single action...as a personal attack....and I think that also has a lot to do with it....

but you don't get to choose, so, I say, why fight it....why create more problems for ourselves?  More worry?  Lets move on with what we have and learn to appreciate it and hope for the best...that's all one can do...

Like Luise said, we sometimes trip all over our expectations...lets forget about what it was like for us, and try to respect the wishes of our DIL's.  Might not see right, but it's who she is and how she feels and we are not going to change them....we can't always have it our way, so, lets focus on something else, lets, do something with our lives that doesn't depend on our Grand children...or sons and DIL's....

We only have one life, one chance, so lets get out there and live it....and stop obsessing about what we dont' have....and consentrate on the blessings we do have and work with that.....hopefully one day our son's and DIL's will understand...we might still be here, we might not, however, after the problems I've had with my son and DIL, I'm not ever going to go there again...it is what it is...I'm here if they want to love me, but I refuse to allow them to dictate my happiness....and I don't mean that in a mean way....but, they are not responsible for my happiness....neither is my GD....

I just wonder, what some of you here would do if you only saw your Grand children once a year, if that?  It's not going to ruin my life, or make me feel sad and obsess about it all the time....it's my choice, I can choose happy, or I can choose, sad, and obsess on all the bad stuff...I refuse to do that...and I don't own them, or my Grand child....they need to be where they are, they are happy there....and they have lives there, and have built a family there....I cannot depend on them for my happiness....

we have two choices, happy...sad....
the more we get the more we want...we do not own our children, they are not ours, we were merely a vessel from which they came...doesn't matter how we were raised....they don't feel the same way we did, for many reasons...maybe we gave them to much....?  Who knows...we did the best we could do mentally....however, they are not able to live up to our expectations...our grand children are not ours to won, they are a gift and a privilege, and if our son's were not married, we wouldn't have them....so, we can ask, is it a privledge, that must be won, yes, it is...b/c they are another women's children...and we must respect that, be it we agree or not....just b/c she is married to our son's, doesn't give us any special priveledges, unless she says so...period....and I felt the very same way when I was a DIL....that was my child....and no matter how strongly my MIL felt that I was doing things wrong, it was my way...like Frank Sinatra said, "I did it my way". 

Allowance....sets us free, and understanding, parenting doesn't give us a free pass to do as we feel we must....doesn't mean we're right or wrong....it simply is....

We human beings can be so so so controlling sometimes...and feel it is our job to worry, and don't feel productive unless we give ourselves something to worry about, and in doing that, we forget to see the paramount gifts we've had and experienced which we should be greatful for.....

yes, in some cases it is a priviledge, b'/c in some cases, some grand parents refuse to recognize boundaries and that those Grand children are not theirs. 

I don't know if any of this makes any sense or helps you...however, it is the way I see things....it works for me...

(Tara, I'm not saying you are any of these things I wrote about, I'm simply thowing some ideas out there, digest...or not....what ever works best for you...)

Creme

[luise.volta]

It's sure tricky finding the balance between connecting and autonomy. Sending love...

[Pen]

Kathleen, thank you.

[Tara]

We adults will some day have to answer to these children... "Do as we say, not as we do..."   Aren't we supposed to be the adults?  Aren't we supposed to set the example?  Has this become such a materialistic society that we toss out family members as easy as a pair of old shoes?  DD has resented me since teen years.  I've tried everything to make amends.  I don't see it happening.  She seems resentful & jealous of my closeness to GC.  I'm too old to play this game.  It's going to break my heart in two, but I'm willing to take my marbles & go home.  I love GC too much.  The road goes both ways, I don't want DD teaching GC disrespect for GP...  Some day, GC may ask what happened?  What will we tell them? 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQmz6Rbpnu0

Rose,

I am moved by what you are saying and can relate on so many levels.
Also loved the young womans speech.  thank you
Love and blessings to you

[Tara]

Creme,

Beautifully written and heart felt. 

One of the many things you said is that we can't live our dreams through our children and grandchildren. 
so well said.  For me I know this, yet with gc on the way I started to envision a future that included them
for example I asked them if I might visit once a quarter (every 3 months, I live in another state) .  That may or may not happen but remembering what you are saying Creme is truly revolutionary IMHO!  I wasn't raised this way


I worked for a few years in aging I heard so many sad stories about older women (older than myself at 66) who
were alone and pretty much abandoned by DC and GC and community that it made me begin to ponder this:
what if women as they were raising their children and going through the progression of grandparenting etc. that goes with it
knew that there was decent possibility that they would be all alone in the future.  That the very children that they had
sacrificed so much for would be unavailable and even possibly uninterested in supporting them or even interacting with them now that they were community elders and needing some support  might they live their lives differently?

Might they have made more time for things that would enhance their own lives at the time and in their senior
years?  By this I mean financially/career wise  as well as socially and culturally.  Here is one simple statistic.  I'm
not meaning to derail our conversation re:  grandparenting privileges  but this is a part of the picture.

Did you know that the average age of widowhood is 56 years old, and that 76% of married women are eventually widowed. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics,  the savings rate for single women is 1.5% compared to 2.1% for single men. And,  in the United States,  women over the age of 75 living in poverty represent the highest percentage of those of any other industrialized country. Over 70% of the United State's four million elderly poor people are women; 48% of this group are widows. Women still earn 74 cents for each dollar a man earns, which qualifies them for less Social Security and pension. The statistics speak for themselves.

This is just one aspect of older women's lives.  We need to empower ourselves (now) by having our own dreams, interests, community.  We might be blessed by having adult children and GC who love and support us and want us to be in their lives
and us in theirs, but there is a chance they may not want this, due to different values, generational differences, mental health issues, Ad infinitum as we see here and we need to be able to still have/create  rich satisfying lives as no one will do it for us!   This is one of the things I love about the WW forum.  It inspires us, supports us to do what we are able to work things out with Adult children DILs and then/also  move own with living and creating our own satisfying lives.

Thank you Creme for your wise words and my gratitude to wise women here on the forum.  I can have conversations with you
that don't happen in my daily life very often.

With gratitude to Wise Women

[luise.volta]

Bravo! At 83 I am married but I'm alone, since Val is 99 and in our nursing facility. For me the big thing is my community. I/we tried two other retirement communities and found disgruntled people there waiting to die. Not very attractive. What makes our present retirement community different is that it is non-profit; therefore it is legal for us to volunteer. (State laws prevent that in for-profit institutions because exploitation could result.)

We are large in census and acreage and forty years old, so there's lots of experience here regarding what does and doesn't work. We don't have to volunteer...and many of us do less as less of it as the years go by but I think that's where the fun lies. Val and I have been here 10 years. The point it that a non-profit, Continuous Care Retirement Community offers us the priceless gift of being useful. Not busy work...making a useful contribution. This facility is church-owned but we are not of the same faith and that has never mattered. There are grand units here, two-level, 1,700 sq. ft., and there are low-income, HUD, studio units (where I live.)

Our families are as involved as they want to be but we have created an extended family that really matters a lot. Last year we put in over 35,000 hours of volunteering on campus. We replaced 18 full-time employees and we raised over $100,000 that we poured back into the community. 

There are lots more women than men and yes, once in a while, there's a marriage. My point is that this isn't the answer for everyone but most elders, predominately women, don't have to be alone, live on a poverty level or live with families that may not want them there. People here are offered HUD housing and can receive Medicaid assistance. Some come here in their 60s and have another whole lifetime of fun and giving.

The staff here is wonderful and the attrition is very low. We also have a life-expectancy beyond the norm. I have a friend here who is 104, living in an independent unit, volunteering in our Manor Mart (grocery) and is writing a book...yes! on her computer!

There are options...that's all I'm saying. Check it out. www.warmbeach.org

[erma]

wow luise! what a wonderful place you live in! i shall hope to have such luck when we become of age. warm beach here we come!
(well, not for a few years, but soon) thank you for sharing that luise!