Trying Again...Failing Again!

[justdontunderstand]

Thank you one and all for your quick responses and support. It is much appreciated.

Some of you wondered about the relationship we have with our son. He has visited  alone three times in the past year. Two visits went well, the other not so well. The two that went well there was no mention of DIL. In the other, I tried to speak with him gently about the hurt we felt at the lack of a relationship with DIL. I did not speak ill of her or accuse her. He said there was nothing he could do about it and  that we needed to speak with her directly. I asked him how could we do that when we have never had a real conversation with her in six years. Literally, she will answer a direct question with a one or two sentence answer but that is all. We have tried to find common ground--ask about her interests etc. but nothing works. She seems angry or bored or something when around us. I simply don't know how to read her nor does anyone in our family who has met her. Our son just seems to want to avoid the whole problem. In the past, he would always talk out any problems with us and we could work through them. Now it is as if the pod people have taken him over.

[cremebrulee]

Thank you one and all for your quick responses and support. It is much appreciated.

Some of you wondered about the relationship we have with our son. He has visited  alone three times in the past year. Two visits went well, the other not so well. The two that went well there was no mention of DIL. In the other, I tried to speak with him gently about the hurt we felt at the lack of a relationship with DIL. I did not speak ill of her or accuse her. He said there was nothing he could do about it and  that we needed to speak with her directly. I asked him how could we do that when we have never had a real conversation with her in six years. Literally, she will answer a direct question with a one or two sentence answer but that is all. We have tried to find common ground--ask about her interests etc. but nothing works. She seems angry or bored or something when around us. I simply don't know how to read her nor does anyone in our family who has met her. Our son just seems to want to avoid the whole problem. In the past, he would always talk out any problems with us and we could work through them. Now it is as if the pod people have taken him over.

can you give me an example of your DIL's one or two word answers....a for instance....? 

also, your son is just as responsible for this as she is...no one changes anyone, unless they approve the change....and apparentely, your son is taking the easy way out at all costs...namely yours. 
I believe, and I'm just guessing here, if he discusses this with you she gets very angry...and by the way, it sounds as if you did very well....but he felt like you were backing him in a corner...

perhaps I can give you some insight thru my experience....

I was not nearly as perceptive as you at the time, and I wasn't able to discuss this with my son, without getting really upset....why?  Well, when I explained one situation that happened with my DIL, he said, "wull, mom, she isn't like that, this is why she acted the way she did"....and I took it as if he was not only siding with her, but also, as if he was saying, I was lying about the way I perceived the situation, and my first reaction was extremely hurt, then extreme anger....and we really fought, more so then any other time in our lives, and here's the kicker....he got the same from his wife....she thought he was siding with me, and saying she was lying, when what he was trying to do as mediator, was to tell us both, we were both perceiving the situation wrong, and both taking it as a personal attack and hate reaction on our part, in other words, I thought she hated me, and was doing everything she could to reject me and drive a wedge between us, and she thought the very same thing of me, and we were both shocked when after 12 years of back and forth, we both realized that it was not that way...in other words, both of us were ready to listen, and for both of us, the light bulb went on and we were both able to accept and see that we were hurting each other but it was not intended.

I'm not saying your situation is the same....however, we women can be vile when we want our way.....and when something is done that we don't like we take it as a personal attack against us and like the other person is saying, "Your no good!"

However, your DIL sounds as if she wants her way period....she's used to spending time with her family, that is her only comfort zone, and she is not willing to branch out and give her husband a chance with his parents....and share holidays...that would be the mature thing to do...the lovig thing to do.....

I don't know what to tell you, except, darlin, your going to have to for now, make plans and exlude them....it's really up to your son to tell her, how much this is hurting everyone involved, meaning, you and him....she is not thinking how she is affecting the lives of others in a very negative and hurtful way....compromise can be worked out....however, both have to be willing to do so...and she, at this time is not....

I'm very sorry I don't have a more positive solution for you...but given time, maybe she will change, but for now, I would back off, and let them live they're lives and all I can do is wish so much that I could approach your son and say..."Shame on you!"  How dare you treat your parents like that....and I would, believe me...the older I'm getting the more outspoken I'm becoming and I can't stand drama that hurts others...

I would make splendid plans if you can with hubby....go somewhere for a Christmas Vacation, and carry on without them for a while, and the next time your son visits, and speaks to you about this situation, let him know how much this is hurting you....your not being unreasonable, and when you tell him, he may leave in a huff and not come back for awhile, but what other choice do you have at this point? 

I'm so so sorry....
Creme

[justdontunderstand]

Creme,
I really hear your concern and kindness in your posts. Again, thank you so much for your thoughts. I feel you are right--some of the responsibility for this debacle rests with our son. He is in a very high pressure job and has been for some years and that explains some of his reaction, I think. He is spread pretty thin. I have compassion for that part of the issue.

He tells me that DIL doesn't have a good emotional "intelligence" as a way of explaining her behavior. (It in turn makes me wonder why he was attracted to her in the first place and how he broke through this barrier).

Here is an example of an exchange with her:

Me:  "So, do you like your new job?.  Her: "Yes". Me: "Do you like your coworkers?"  Her: "Yes"   Me:  "What do you do exactly?"  Her: "It is a bit complicated  to explain".  Me:  "Oh........."

What I felt like saying but didn't was " Why don't you try and explain it. I bet I can follow it." But instead I just give up because it is like pulling teeth instead of having a conversation. Please note that I have observed her (at their wedding) talking an laughing with friends in a relaxed way.

[LaurieS]

Our son just seems to want to avoid the whole problem. In the past, he would always talk out any problems with us and we could work through them.

His avoidance of the problem is not surprising. 

My own son tried the deer in the headlights look of surprise when we spoke directly with him concerning our family issues.   If your son is a more non-confrontational type person like my own then one line of defense is avoiding, dismissing, or simply living  life with their heads in the sand.  When I forced the issue (nicely but persistently) then I was met with resistance and anger...  he wasn't angry about what I was saying, he was angry that he had to recognize that there were some issues and that he had to open his eyes and see them...and I think he was concerned that he was going to have to put forth some effort to try and rectify the problems.  That is my take on my son... yours may or may not have some of these same tendencies.

Do you think you would be ignored or ridiculed by the extended family if you simply sent holiday invitations to your ds/dil and her family as well.  Maybe not for a close holiday where plans have already been made, but possibly New Years may work.

I'm in the same boat with you as I feel as if our family has lost it's reason to exist in my DIL's eyes, if this is not the case she has certainly shown us no reason not to feel this way.  You'll find a way... Laurie   

[justdontunderstand]

Laurie,
Thanks for your reply. I think my son is in some kind of "denial" or at best avoidance of the issue. I feel that we are really the only ones suffering here on nearly a daily basis as we struggle to live in this new reality.

I thought about including DIL's family in an invitation but from what I know (only met them twice), they have a large extended family they participate with every year for the holidays. Their traditions are in part cultural. Besides, I get the distinct feeling that DIL has "lobbied" against us to at least her mother because my attempts at communicating with them since the wedding have gone unanswered.

I sent food gifts last holiday season that did not evidently even warrant a "thank you".  All very sad and so unnecessary.

[cremebrulee]

Creme,
I really hear your concern and kindness in your posts. Again, thank you so much for your thoughts. I feel you are right--some of the responsibility for this debacle rests with our son. He is in a very high pressure job and has been for some years and that explains some of his reaction, I think. He is spread pretty thin. I have compassion for that part of the issue.

He tells me that DIL doesn't have a good emotional "intelligence" as a way of explaining her behavior. (It in turn makes me wonder why he was attracted to her in the first place and how he broke through this barrier).

Here is an example of an exchange with her:

Me:  "So, do you like your new job?.  Her: "Yes". Me: "Do you like your coworkers?"  Her: "Yes"   Me:  "What do you do exactly?"  Her: "It is a bit complicated  to explain".  Me:  "Oh........."

What I felt like saying but didn't was " Why don't you try and explain it. I bet I can follow it." But instead I just give up because it is like pulling teeth instead of having a conversation. Please note that I have observed her (at their wedding) talking an laughing with friends in a relaxed way.

could you perhaps try to ask her advice on something?  Like, well, I've been trying so hard to make so and so, but I can't get it right, how do you do it?

Or I'm going to this formal dinner, and I'm wearing this and this, what type of shoes do you think I should get to go with it, I want to appear to be trendy, but not overdo it for a woman of my age, what do you think?

Or, hey, DIL, I'm thinking about getting my hair done, what do you think....

maybe more personal questions would help, and find out from son, who DIL is....yanno, I spent so many years, believing that DIL was an awful person, that I so missed out on knowing who she really was....I could only see her bad points, as we all own, and refused to acknowledge that she had any ounce of good in her....now, I'm realizing, she has tons of good in her, more so then bad....so, find out who she is, and what she likes....even if you have to ask son....but learn things about her....so you can communicate with her, it might seem more sincere to her, communicate with her but don't pry into her personal life, and by all means, not that you would, but never ever discuss any one else with her, b/c she'll be afraid you will be talking about her when she is not around....and I know you don't, just put that in there as a heads up....really.

Keep trying...Laurie also made some good points...keep trying, don't give up, no matter how ridiculous it may seem, keep trying, and if she rewards you, by smiling or talking, then you know you've done something right and she isn't a total robot....LOL and, she simply may have no respect for adults....but maybe she has no respect for herself, and that is why she is being so rude? 

hugs
Creme

[Pen]

JDU, our DIL's FOO has behaved similarly. I'm sorry you're going through this. It's difficult to be treated like this, and as you've said it's so unnecessary.

We've totally backed off and are letting DIL's FOO make the first move. We express concern when DIL tells us news of their health issues or whatever, and now they do the same for us which is very, very big. It's a painfully slow process.

We'd decided not to give them any holiday gifts/cards since DIL wasn't too keen on accepting ours to her; we thought her FOO would feel the same. Last year DIL was more gracious about accepting (although not so great at giving) so we're reassessing for this year - haven't decided yet. Perhaps we'll start with a card and see how it goes?

I keep saying it's like we have cooties (can you tell I've spent a lot of time in middle school?) The so-called cool kids don't want to accept things from the needy nerds. Oh, the holidays...thanks a lot, Norman Rockwell! LOL

Creme, you've got some great ideas. Pehaps they'll encourage JDU's DIL to come out of her shell. (My DIL might have used those requests for fashion advice or cooking help as another opportunity to mock my clothes budget, poor cooking skills and my age, however, but that's just her.) And the advice about not ever talking about others is priceless! We're toast if our DILs/DSs ever suspect us of doing the same regarding them. (Of course the same rules don't necessarily apply to them, unfortunately.)

[pam1]

JDU, my parents couldn't written your posts.  We haven't spent ONE holiday with them, not one.  And that is changing, trust me.

I think it was a case of a really bad combination of timing and avoidance/denial (on my part.)  I am taking responsibility and trying to fix this and get back to my family of origin to let them know they are important to me. 

A lot of it was that it was just so HARD with DH's family.  So dang hard.  Any time there was a slight change in tradition to ANY holiday (I'm even talking the valentines/st pattys day type holidays too) MIL would flip out.  So this was made crystal clear to me early on, not by my DH and in fact, my DH was very evasive with just how invested his FOO was about holidays.  He never clearly told me what they expected and how they acted, I only picked up by observing.  In therapy, it was brought out just how unusual his family was concerning the holidays and how DH just didn't know and then of course, he wanted to avoid the subject too.

Anyway, the first year with DH's family I saw one family member get torn to shreds over not participating in their complicated traditional holiday schedules.  They were ostracized, gossiped about viciously, drama drama drama.  I really didn't pay much attention and as I was first getting to know them, I figured it was an old family feud.  But then stuff kept happening and I think subconsciously I sorta feared their reaction by doing something different and just ducked my head and went with it.   

And then here we are, my FOO hasn't spent a holiday with us.  It's been a lot of work, I've talked about it a little on other threads.  We have so many issues with the in laws that have affected our marriage in other ways, that we've spent the vast majority of our time trying to work those out and keep our marriage strong and that put the holiday issue on the back burner for awhile.  We finally felt strong enough this year to tackle the holiday problem and so far, we are doing ok. 

Is it fair to my family?  Heck NO!  I know that, my DH knows that (now lol.)  But we also had to save our marriage first, that was the priority. 

It could be that right now and from what it sounds like your DIL is like, your DS is having to do the same as me, face things as they come and change things as he can.  The thing is, and we know from our counselor too, if when all this started dawning on me if I stood up and said "DH, that's it.  A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H and so on changes RIGHT THIS INSTANT!".......well, we'd be divorced.  From the outside looking in, I'd bet my last dollar that your DS has got so many fish in the pan right now that he CAN'T face the holiday issue. 

My parents have handled this pretty well, I'd say.   They've made an occasional comment here and there but I think if they kept up the pressure, it would be even that much harder on me.  As it is, I can't go running to them to lay it all out to them what has been happening in my marriage and explain to them, that would be a huge no-no and a betrayal of my husband.   So here it is, I'm sure your DS is in much of the same place I am....and from what I can tell, countless others.  (I've been reading around lately about the holiday issues) and I really can't get into that mindset some people have where they "own" holidays like your DIL's family behaves and my inlaws behave.  If you want some insight, google some and see how people react to this subject.  A lot of people just get really heated, even over the internet!  And then imagine your DS living with that, day in and day out.  It is not easy.

[cremebrulee]

yanno what, they're always going to talk about the one who isn't there...my own sister does that....when my younger sister and I get together, we decided together, she's goig to talk about whoever isn't there...she never travels or goes anywhere, and that's her fault, and yet, faults everyone else who does for it cuz she's jealous....and I won't let her do it anymore....she called me once and said, "Well, younger sister isn't coming"  and I said...."So what!"  and said, sis, life is getting way to short for us, to live up to the expectations of others....they aren't coming b/c they want to spend some time with his mother....and that's ok....they will be with us on Easter and Thanksgiving, and that's enough, but his mother deserves time with them to....and since she is not invited to come out here to stay with one of us, they must go there....period. 

Yanno, I cannot believe people actually give up they're own traditions and happiness to please others for so long like this, God bless you and your family....your family must be really hurt...there has to be sharing and consideration for others, or else have both extended families come together for the dinner...

[Nanci49]

Thanks for the replies -

ALL I can say right now is God Bless her because she will live to regret how she has forever treated me since she was 14 years old!
I just can't be emotionally and verbally abused anymore and thats why " I GUESS " i started shootin' back myself with my mouth - something i've not done before!
Good Bless her!

[Barbie]

JDU, my DIL acts the same way, she gives me yes and no answers, last time we saw them she actually gave us a full explanation on something and when she realized she was talking to us she totally freaked out and stopped talking. I really don't know what else to say but to just try to stay strong and in time things may change, they have for us, a little bit.
Hugs.

[cremebrulee]

JDU, my DIL acts the same way, she gives me yes and no answers, last time we saw them she actually gave us a full explanation on something and when she realized she was talking to us she totally freaked out and stopped talking. I really don't know what else to say but to just try to stay strong and in time things may change, they have for us, a little bit.
Hugs.

When she did that, you should have called her on it, and said..."why did you stop talking, you had my full attention, that was very interesting"....she may be doing it, b/c she is so insecure, she feels that you would probably never be interested in what she has to say....that's when you reassure her....hey, I was interested, lets continue...this is something I'm learning"....that will give her confidence, and let her know, it's ok for her to be herself with you....

[Barbie]

Yes, Creme, I realize one of us should have called her on it, DH and I just don't know how to act around her, we're so afraid to rock the boat, things have improved somewhat, we get to see our GD about once a month and we don't want to do anything to jeoperdize what we do have. DS told me, not too long ago that DIL wanted nothing to do with us but she still allows us to visit every now and then and lets DS and GD come to visit us.

[Annie123]

Yes, Creme, I realize one of us should have called her on it, DH and I just don't know how to act around her, we're so afraid to rock the boat, things have improved somewhat, we get to see our GD about once a month and we don't want to do anything to jeoperdize what we do have. DS told me, not too long ago that DIL wanted nothing to do with us but she still allows us to visit every now and then and lets DS and GD come to visit us.

I sure hope things get better for you. It must feel awful to have to worry about every thing you say or do. Just because of fear that your DIL " Will not allow" your DS and GC to visit.. How sad.. sending you hugs!

[cremebrulee]

[quote Annie123
I sure hope things get better for you. It must feel awful to have to worry about every thing you say or do. Just because of fear that your DIL " Will not allow" your DS and GC to visit.. How sad.. sending you hugs!
[/quote]

What a horrible thing to do to someone?  I sure hope they get better to....


Guest,
If it were me, I couldn't keep my mouth shut...this is abuse...I'm sorry, but it is....