Author Topic: When you think about it  (Read 1729 times)

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cremebrulee

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When you think about it
« on: January 22, 2010, 05:22:38 AM »
When you think about it, isn't it mind bottleing, that two grown women cannot get along?  I mean really, how utterly childish...isn't it...ridiculous!

I mean to consciously or unconsciously sabatoge a relationship is so, so.....

actually sometimes I find it unable to grasp....yanno?

Offline isitme?

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2010, 08:14:30 AM »
I know what you mean.  I"ve never really felt comfortable around those types of "catty" women - the kind that can never get along with other women.  It's totally ridiculous but I think it has a lot to do with the insecurity these types of women feel.... 

I think it' hard for those of us who aren't like this to grasp the concept.  I like getting along with people.  It seems like most of the women here are like that too. 

2chickiebaby

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2010, 09:02:40 AM »
It is mind boggling that two grown women can't get along but when either one is trying to keep the other from the one man, it gets difficult.  It's a great big tug of war. 

Offline luise.volta

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2010, 09:06:49 AM »
I suppose getting along takes a back seat when one or both are committed to supremacy. Sad...
"Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes it's a quiet voice at the end of the day saying, I'll try again tomorrow." -- Mary Ann Radmacher

cremebrulee

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2010, 09:38:04 AM »
I suppose getting along takes a back seat when one or both are committed to supremacy. Sad...

Hey there Luise....how are you and yours doing today...

yeah, I know what you mean, but to me, it seems so much harder to be contrary then it does to just be nice to one another, and think about how much tension it would take off of everyone...including they're husbands, our sons....yanno....

So, how are you feeling?  Hope your doing well....


Invisible

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2010, 08:09:01 AM »
Sassy,

Your right, I am sure families exposed to alcohol, drugs and abusive behavior suffer long term affects. We are an accumulation of our experiences. No doubt some dysfunctional decisions are based on misguided or faulty parental exposure. Alcohol, drug abuse and some form of mental illness is prevalent in most families. Everyone knows of a uncle, aunt, grandparent or parent who demonstrated abusive behaviors.

My DIL's parents are alcoholics with "potty" mouths. It has affected my DIL. She drinks and takes drugs daily. Of course she calls my GD vulgar names to her face. My DIL told me I am controlling. I would never discuss anything more with my DIL than the weather. Still she referrs to me as controlling.....GO figure???


Someone here asked how many of difficult ILs encountered had parents who were alcoholic or abusive, and if their apparent needs for Control, could be related to that.  Hope this thread about getting along is a good place to ask or chat about it.  If any one wants this removed, I will take it down.

There is a lot of talk on these forums about DILs who want total Control.  Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACoA) and Adult Children of Dysfunctional Families (ACDF) can develop different forms of co-dependency as adults.  ACoAs deal with Control, Compliance, Denial, Self Esteem.

A child needs to develop a SKILL SET, to survive living where neglect and conflict and abuse are continuously allowed.   In the dysfunctional family, every member plays a Role.  The Adult Child of an Alcoholic, especially if they played the Role of THE HERO, the Very Responsible One in the dysfunctional family, still often greatly fears Loss of Control as an adult.

Its fair to point out some skills learned are quite useful later in life, too.  ACoAs develop many traits that are considered desirable by others, especially as a modern adult.  They function in chaos.  “HERO” ACoAs are often loyal and hardworking employees, highly organized, self-motivated and discliplined people. Dedicated heads of household, successful earners. Perfectionists are often “HERO” ACoAs.   ACoAs are usually exceptionally loyal, kind, empathetic, thoughtful, sensitive, dedicated, pleasers, dependable, trustyworthy, reliable adults.

Keep in mind the adult interactive behavior the ACoA had available to model. They learned from an alcohol abuser and their enabler, how to communicate in relationships (withdrawal, insulting, punishing, ignoring, yelling, crying, fighting, hitting), and how to deal with problems (denial, escape, hysterics, procrastinate, play victim, shift responsibility, blameshift). 

One of the four common Roles in Dysfunctional Ramilies played is the Very Responsible "HERO",  (There other three are The Scapegoat or bully, The cute Mascot clown, and the invisible Lost Child role.   They each tend to develop a different sets of skills and traits, though many overlap).  The Problem theory is that the patterns learned for the most played Role often carry through to adulthood.  The Problem is when we continue some patterns now, as adults, even if they now hurt more than they help.

The very responsible “HERO” role-playing child can easily grow up into an adult who is Controlling, highly Judgmental of themselves and others, and quite Rigid at a young age.  While growing up where chaos could erupt into abuse at any time, the child in the "HERO" role learns to Fear any Loss of Control.    They become very serious people.  As the Little Parent, they have to be very vigilant.  Because if everything was not controlled, it would go downhill fast.  They still feel they must have control of situations, behaviors, feelings at all times. It’s less that Having control gives them security, but Losing it causes Distress, from the same stress and fear response learned years ago.   So they over react when they feel things are out of their Control.   It's also very hard for HERO's to feel truly relaxed and have fun, because they always feel they have to be super-responsible.

This is what was explained to me about ACoAs and Control, for general interest.   Who knows how much is proven true or is conjecture.  There are a couple of 12-steps groups dedicated to it.   Lastly, I hope it's not in poor taste to momentarily wonder aloud if the ACoAs who need Control, had perhaps stepped into more Compliant family roles than Hero, if they'd be less difficult to get along with now.

Offline luise.volta

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2010, 08:24:01 AM »
Hey, Creme...I'm hanging in and coping. Moving slowly. Resting often. Feeling grateful. Thanks.  :)

Sassy, that was very interesting. So much of what we do is a program and we don't know it is. My best friend, who passed last May, and I used to laugh at our diverse reactions to situations. She was a very spoiled and indulged, only child...I was a very unwanted and rejected one. When someone did something to me that I considered untenable, she would look at it and say "who cares what they think, aren't they silly?" And if it happened to her, she's be unfazed and think it was really strange the person didn't get how wonderful she was. We were very close for 47 years after meeting by chance by working in the same office and over the years I got so I would step back from situations and ask my self how she would view it, just to see that there were different ways to perceive it and mine was taylor-made.
"Courage doesn't always roar. Sometimes it's a quiet voice at the end of the day saying, I'll try again tomorrow." -- Mary Ann Radmacher

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2010, 09:30:45 AM »
I agree, Luise. I know my reactions to things are much different than those of my friends who have a more solid family base. I have to constantly rethink and reprogram. Not being cherished by my parents affected everything in my life. I chose to cherish my kids, for example, and did whatever I could to encourage their interests and talents given our limited resources. My stepmother fawns all over our DS now, but while we were raising him said often that we should totally cut him off at age 18 ( even though he was a good kid, and she never cut off her own kids) and let him sink or swim. We opted to support him in his goal of getting a degree (neither DH or I had help when younger, and it was a huge stuggle.) Now that he's successful they, and DIL & her family, give him all the credit and treat us as though we are major losers for not being more successful in our own lives. So, when dissed by DIL or others, I immediately return to those days and feelings of yesteryear and it becomes a much bigger deal than it probably should be.
Respect ... is appreciation of the separateness of the other person, of the ways in which he or she is unique.
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cremebrulee

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 05:01:46 AM »
I agree, Luise. I know my reactions to things are much different than those of my friends who have a more solid family base. I have to constantly rethink and reprogram. Not being cherished by my parents affected everything in my life. I chose to cherish my kids, for example, and did whatever I could to encourage their interests and talents given our limited resources. My stepmother fawns all over our DS now, but while we were raising him said often that we should totally cut him off at age 18 ( even though he was a good kid, and she never cut off her own kids) and let him sink or swim. We opted to support him in his goal of getting a degree (neither DH or I had help when younger, and it was a huge stuggle.) Now that he's successful they, and DIL & her family, give him all the credit and treat us as though we are major losers for not being more successful in our own lives. So, when dissed by DIL or others, I immediately return to those days and feelings of yesteryear and it becomes a much bigger deal than it probably should be.

I had a very dysfunctional mother and was abused as a child....and it would have been very easy for me to turn out like my DIL....but, the only difference, is, and here is my life saver...thank God!  When I was 5 years old, we moved in across the street from a family who took me in...I call them my foster parents...but, actually, there wasn't any legal issues....they had a younger daughter, whom I played with...and soon began to realize, that I was left alone a lot.  They became my family network, and I remember how as a little child, I would pray so hard, to please not ever let me become like my real mother.  Well, if it hadn't been for that family, I would be so dysfunctional...and so selfish...my real mother is really mentally ill...I used to really dislike her, now, I just simply feel so sorry for her...but I can't tell you how thankful I am to this family for allowing me to be a part of them....actually owe my life to them...I used to follow her around like a little puppy dog, and we'd have talks...she was a wonderful mom...and I do miss her so...they're extended family became my family, aunts uncles, cousins...I owe everything I've done and have to them...she used to pat me on the head and say, "God has his eyes on you, your a special girl".  She was the most trusting, loving, compassionate giving person I have ever known. 

So, yes, we are programed Luise...right down to our political views, our spiritual beliefs, how we act, and think....we are our parents future....we are, they're legacy...

So, normally I'd be really so angry at my DIL, and a lot of times I am, but I don't believe I'm bitter, or wishing her anything bad...b/c I do understand her behavior....not that it's right, but I can thank my lucky stars, that I am not like her, and that is my saving grace...and the lesson from all of this, plus to learn patience, tollerance and to bow out when I know I'm not welcome. 

We humans want, what we want, when we want it, no matter how old we grow...and sometimes, we persist and make our own problems...I know I did...I kept throwing myself at her, thinking if I could win her, I could make us all happy, and things would be a lot easier for my son.  But no matter what I did or said, she found something wrong...she rejected me, and I wasn't getting it, and the harder I tried, the more I made myself a victim...wasn't right, no, but I kept refusing to see the forest thru the trees...so now that I've backed off, I feel much better....oh, yes, there are hard days, but, I keep remembing, my son is not mine, he never was....I don't own him or his life and I must let go, and give him his turn at life...regardless of the situation...it is what it is...and if I'd have kept trying, I'd have hurt my own heart...I don't care anymore....it's done, and I must move on....my son is not my only purpose in life, and I won't rely on him for happiness....yes, I miss my GD, but, it is what it is...and maybe when she's older, she will search me out...in the meantime, I've got a life to live, and I'm trying hard not to waste anymore energy on wishing for, what will never be....it ain't gonna happen.

I hope, in some small way, this helps some of you...it's not easy, but at times, we can be our own worst enemies....by fighting it....and I keep thinking, this is so stupid...why can't two grown women simply get along...it's not about winning...who cares who wins...?


Sassy

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2010, 09:39:01 AM »
The word "program" may also be like the word "habit"?  I'm not sure but I'd like to think that, because habits and patterns can be broken!

Awareness of  the habit or pattern, probably has to come before setting out to break a habit. 

Like someone who sees abuse, may have a habit of "excusing" it.  The wife who's husband comes home and hits her or verbally berates her, is programmed to think, "He had a bad day. It's not his fault."  It might be a habit carried through from seeing her father do the same thing to her mother, and her mother's response.  So the then-child adopts the same habit, to tolerate watching her mother be beaten.  And later, maintains that habit to excuse her own abusive spouse.  Until one day, she breaks her own habit of making excuses for her abuser. 

A bad habit or negative pattern seems easier to break than being de-programmed.  (But then again, try telling that to anyone who's trying to kick smoking.  Or stop eating a quart of ice cream whenever they need to settle down. Though those "habits" may be more of "addictions" which is a whole 'nother worm can!)

Creme wrote something on another thread about the self-fulfilling prophecy of a DIL claiming to her DH that her MIL doesn't like her, and repeats it enough until the events happen that make it a reality.  If a young girl felt victimized by peers or parents or  step-parents or teachers, and that habit was not broken, and she was not taught to see her momentary unhappiness another way, it seems it could easily be a bad pattern / habit  she'd develop and carried through as an adult whenever she feels insecure.   Repeat "no one at school likes me", "they're not fair" enough times at school, and getting along with people at school is going to be tougher.  In terms of your thread topic here, that resulting self-fulfilling prophecy idea could explain one possibility why two decent women who love the same people and want the best for them, might not be able to, to paraphrase Rodney King, just get along.

cremebrulee

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2010, 10:26:41 AM »
Hi Sassy
I personally think, since all my son and his friends talking about me so much in front of my DIL before they were married, made her fear me...she, most likely thought I wouldn't like her...so maybe she sabotaged the relationship before I could reject her?  Narcissistic people hate, hate hate, and fear rejection more then anything...after all, that is how they came to be narcissistic, from childhood, due to rejection they learned to cut off they're feelings and emotions, and when I think about that, it makes me very sad for my DIL....

but then again...I've seen her in action, and while she is very insecure, she's a huffy little pistola....LOL....I mean, no body walks on her and she is perfectly capable of taking care of herself....she simply play acts and pretends to be helpless to get her own way...and if she doesn't she acts out very negative, b/c any attention, even negative is redirecting it all back to her.


cremebrulee

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Re: When you think about it
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2010, 07:01:55 AM »
Same with my dil, nobody walks on her & she is more than capable of taking care of herself.  I think she is still trying to sabotage any relationship we may have, because she fears rejection.  and I think she is trying to prove to her hubby, my son, that I wil turn my back on him the way her mother did to her, so she can say, "see, your mother is no better than mine."  My dil is also very insecure, & a huffy little pistola, (love your terminology), & it makes me sad too.  I feel so sorry for her.

I feel sorry for them to Anna...really, which goes without saying, I do become very frustrated and angry with her...however, in the end, she will have many dues to pay, and unfortunately, so will her daughter and my son...but, I believe someday, since she is raising her daughter to be just like her....her daughter will turn from her...they will not get along...my DIL has to have everything her way....it must be how she says, and when she says...she is not capable of even entertaining the idea, of someone else doing it they're way or having fun.  I mean, even as far as concerts, vacations....it's always who she wants to see, and cruises....I don't think she even considers that maybe my son would like to do something on his own, once in a great while....he really doesn't have any close male friends...she won't allow it....

Love is helping your husband by getting of your ars and getting a full time job to help out...her child is in school and there is no reason what so ever...none of us love our jobs....we tollerate them...and she is teaching her daughter to do the same thing, to use people to take care of her and get what she wants. 

I can't imagine, someone having not only such a dysfunctional mother, but sisters and brother, and not realizing, hey, I have some problems here, that need to be fixed, and I'm going to counseling...how can you be that closed minded?  And how can my son, even begin to tollerate her and think that is love?  She is so unappreciative....but, and sorry ladies, for being so blunt, but I've read up on this and yanno how they control our son's, with sex....
and that is the truth....