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Great response, Still Learning! I couldn't agree more!  And good luck to you, proverbs girl. You strike me as a thoughtful, empathetic DIL whose heart is in the right place. That alone is half the battle.

Thanks for your reply, JaneF. It is good to get validation from someone who has been there and known guys like this one.  I know there is a chance she will go back to him, and fortunately there are no children in the picture so she doesn't take anyone else down with her if she goes back to him. There are a lot of triggers coming up soon, like today, Valentine's Day, his birthday, her birthday, etc. that might weaken her resolve, but at least she has proven to herself that she can survive this.  My challenge now is to separate from her drama so it doesn't affect my daily life, not check her bank account or FB page.  It's hard because I want so badly for this decision to stick! But I know I'm just creating disappointment for myself if she accepts him back again.

Hi Jane,
I am a relatively new member, but I have read almost all the threads under Adult Sons and Daughters category, so I definitely remember your name.  In looking a little at your story, I am struck with how you fought for those grandkids, believed in them and worked to get them to live with you and get them the support, services and activities they needed to thrive, which is certainly what is happening now.  You and your husband have made a world of difference in their lives and your commitment and love is so apparent.  It must be gratifying to see your daughter take responsibility for her bad choices, and make positive life choices.  It is a message to all of us to never give up hope on our AC, no matter how dark it seems.  I'm so inspired by your story!

Thanks for your kind words, Patience!  I'm still a work in progress, guided well by all you wise women  . So grateful for all your responses.

Thanks for that word of caution, Pooh. What a dupe by that daughter!  Whoa!  At least this daughter I am prepared for.  When she said something about being able to get counseling for free, don't think I didn't wonder about that.  I offered that we could pay for it through our insurance if her free opportunity doesn't work out. I have someone in mind who she could see. But I believe that any counselor worth his/her salt would call a spade a spade, so if she is feeding me falsehoods, I will see through them.  The counseling isn't for me - it's for herself.  I doubt she'll even go, to tell you the truth.  She just wants another vote for the BF to convince us of her seriousness about him. It will have no effect. I will practice even the thought of her campaign just rolling off me like oil off a duck. Now you have me wondering if your friend ever confronted the daughter about her lies. Boy, would I want to say something!

Luise - I appreciate your comments about her knowing when she is lying without us having to confront her about it.  It is so hard to hear, though.  Sometimes she lies about silly things for no reason, which may partially explain why she has trouble keeping friends.  I guess you are right that the time for teaching her explicitly is gone.  Now the real world kicks in.  Speaking of real world lessons, I had been on her case about her not wearing her seatbelt for a long time, and recently she was a passenger in a car that was pulled over and she was given a ticket for not wearing her seatbelt, even though she was the passenger.  Thank you, police officer!

Green Thumb - Finally I have put Dr. Phil's book on hold at the library, so that will be some useful reading for me.  I'd say she is assuredly an enabler with BF and most definitely lacks boundaries. As far as the manipulation goes, I think she is finding that we are holding our boundaries in place in a united way and she is not able to find a spot of daylight to creep through.  The boundary of saying we will never see BF again had to be put in place, in part, to stop her lying and manipulation.  Since we don't want to hear about him anymore, she has no reason to lie about him.   (He misses you guys so much ... He's taking me to church .... He has changed .... He hasn't had a drink for a year).  The challenge now, as you and Luise say, is to be caring and supportive without getting involved in all the details or anticipating things that may or may not happen.  I found that what you said about accepting who she is now to be so powerful.  Part of me thinks if only she had a different BF everything would be wonderful, but she has to be a good, emotionally healthy person herself, and I need to accept that she has issues that are not going to go away with a change in BF.  They are her own social/emotional challenges to overcome, or not.  It is sad to think that this lying is a part of who she is, though.  I am sorry you and your husband are dealing with the challenges of your manipulating son.  It sounds like you have figured out how to detach from his tactics.  Good for you! 

May I just add that in our last conversation DD asked if we would still be there for her, and I said we are always there for her and love her very much. And she said she loved me for saying that. We have loaned her money for a very expensive car repair recently, and she already paid us back half, before BF moved out. Also we loaned her a car one day so she could get to work while the car was in the shop. So she knows we are there for her.

Hi WW,
This is an update from my previous post entitled Saddened. Not two weeks after I told DD that we would never accept the BF, she called us to say that they had broken up, and it was "official and mutual."  He had moved things out of her place. Of course, we didn't hold our breath, as breakups have happened many a time, only to be followed by a quick reconciliation.  We agreed to get together a couple of days later.  She mentioned that she couldn't have a boyfriend who we, her parents, would never accept.  She also said that BFs $14/hour FT job that she had proudly told us of in December, never materialized, and he was always late with the rent and bills, never had the full amount, and only paid cash so she never knew how much he had. She said he moved back with his mom, the ultimate enabler, to "save money"....hmmm... She said she still loved him.  She is stuck paying the whole rent now with a lease that isn't up till summer.  He is not responsible enough to meet his contractual obligation of paying any rent at all.  She does not seem to blame him at all for that, but she was stressed out financially and asked if she could move back home with us, and if we could loan her the $2000 to break her lease.  We said that wouldn't work for us, or be in her best interest. 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if she gets back with him, but after hearing that we won't loan her the money to break the lease and let her live here again, she went out and found herself a second job. Then she surprised me by saying she wants to get some counseling since what she thinks about her BF and what we think are very different and she wants an outside opinion.  I am all for that! 

I think she has lessons to learn for having stayed with an irresponsible, lazy and lying boyfriend. I am so afraid that she wants to recreate her early dating relationship with him when she lived with us and had no bills to pay and could just see him whenever she wanted without any financial pressure. But that is not reality. So I don't feel guilty about keeping that boundary.  We can support her emotionally but not financially.  We did offer a small monthly monetary gift for a few months until she finds a roommate or gets a cheaper place, but she declined that.  She doesn't want to take our money. That was mature of her.

One thing that puzzles and troubles me is that she told us that she recently went to see the manager of the company where her BF worked to ask the manager if BF was a good worker and wondering why he didn't have more hours.  She alleges that the manager said BF was a good worker but the company had just hired many new employees and had to give them training hours, so BF only got 3 shifts a week.  DDs take on it was that it was just a "misunderstanding," which we have heard time and time again from her or him. Okay, beside the fact that my daughter is interfering in BFs work life, indicating that she doesn't trust BF, the other troubling issue is that my daughter told me this same exact story about her seeing BFs manager at a DIFFERENT company last summer, with the same exact details. I think she lied this time just to again not have us think the worst of her BF.  Part of me thinks her going to a counselor is to try to get the counselor to tell us (and her, of course) that he is a good boyfriend and we should accept him.  She is just so oblivious to reality, or maybe she just portrays herself that way around us.  Could it be that she is trying to blame us for not accepting him, because then she doesn't have to accept blame herself for making lousy decisions? Green Thumb, Luise and Pooh had it right when they said DD tries divert blame from herself.  Should I confront her about this latest suspected lie, or just keep quiet and let her learn from the counselor and the natural consequences? Do I dare butt in and say how irresponsible it is of BF to make her pay the full load of the rent even when his name is on the lease, or should I not interfere because anything I say could be used against me and actually impede her learning or the natural course of events?

Green Thumb, your words from my last thread about just accepting her as she is are most insightful. Thanks!

Good for you, Pen, figuring out when to intervene and when to just let go.  I imagine it gives you a sense of peace in knowing where your boundary is and knowing others are aware of them, too.  You provide us a good example of dealing with a tough situation with grace, acceptance, judiciousness, and a focus on the big picture in your relationship with DS and any future GC.  You have always struck me as a woman who takes the high road and speaks her truth very carefully and thoughtfully.  Those traits will serve you well, no matter what the future holds.  DS knows your values and can plainly see the differences.  How are plans for that spring trip for you and DS coming along?

Ladies, I am so appreciative for all the comments and allowing me to share the details of my daughter's story.  The anguished emotions I've been feeling both yesterday and today as I've relived the numerous dark moments of the past three years again feel like PTSD, and it has made me realize that I don't want to or have to do this to myself anymore.  I want to live a happy, full, and peaceful life.  I feel that if I have to monitor that boyfriend's behavior it makes me the bad guy....I'm almost done raising kids and don't want to raise a 23 year old.  My daughter has unfortunately and misguidedly taken on that task. She needs to stand up for herself and leave him for good.  If she says, "This is what my parents expect from you," he will just behave like any adolescent who doesn't want to have any rules. He already has bucked that with his own mom, with our DD and with us.  I think our daughter is spending more time with us in part because she is lonely or bored in her apartment when he is working (she has no friends), or she hangs out here when she is angry with him.  That puts us in the middle again when it is her relationship to figure out.  We are going to limit the times she comes over to what is convenient for us instead of an open-door, hang out all weekend or whenever she gets off work, "entertain me" free-for-all.  We do enjoy being with her and she is a lot of fun and full of energy, and shorter is usually better.   We have other things we want to do sometimes, too. And I'm realizing that we need to tighten up our boundaries rather than falling all over ourselves with gratitude that she finally wants to spend time with us again. 

I am beyond grateful, Luise, for your four point, no-nonsense advice.  It feels very affirming to me and I might just quote it verbatim to her. 

What is the silver lining in all of this?  Not that I learned to cook a turkey (too bad for me..haha), but that I found care and support from some of the most unexpected people, people have shared tragic stories that turned out hopeful, and certainly the love and care at the wonderful world of WWU!  Hugs to you all!  And with that, Luise, I've gotten what I came here for and you can lock this thread 

You are so right, Patience.  I'm having a tough day, so it is good to remember to practice self-care and watch a couple of episodes of DH's and my favorite comedy that always provokes some good laughs!  Thanks for the reminder 

Thank you, Green Thumb, for your kind reply.  I will check out that book.  If I don't say "never" or have to go back and modify that, I don't know what to say.  Any ideas?

I'm so thankful for the WWU forum.  I decided not to burden my friends IRL, as Pen says, or my poor mother with this issue as they have heard enough and my mom doesn't need any more negativity or worry from me about DD.  And I can't wear out DH either.  But it is a really tough day for me with this issue being thrown in my face yet again, causing lack of sleep, indecision and bad memories of my time in the abyss. DD doesn't have a clue how all this has impacted me because it is all about her and him. 

Thanks, Boston Kare, for your response.  I was typing my message just as you were sending yours    What you suggested about meeting in a neutral place you will see that I have already done this past summer.

I guess the main thing to add is that DH feels that he can forgive the threat, but struggles to find any respect for this young man who has repeatedly made life such a struggle for our daughter.  BF said that same night as the threat, when we were accusing him of mooching off her, that he never had to put a gun to her head, meaning that she did everything for him willingly and not out of coercion.  But really, who talks to their girlfriend's parents that way?  Especially on the same night he threatened to beat up my husband?  He took no responsibility for having made the threat, called it a misunderstanding or overreaction (his favorite terms to avoid accepting blame or responsibility, as an abuser frequently does), and had a totally different version of what had been said.  My daughter said a week later that she didn't believe either her own father's story or her boyfriend's version of the threat.  That felt like the ultimate betrayal and I lost a lot of respect for her that day.  Her father has never lied to her once.

Still Learning, thank you for your reply. I appreciate it VERY much, and I know that your experience gives you a unique perspective. You deserve so much credit for sticking by your sister through that very painful and dangerous time, and it is gratifying to know that it led to a wonderful outcome for her today.  I'd like to share more of our story with you to see what you think. My thought process this past spring and summer was exactly as you described.  Exactly.  DD had told me at that time, after a year of neither me nor DH seeing him, that her BF had changed.  He was paying half the rent, working (the umpteenth job), not drinking, and treating her respectfully.  So to keep an open door with her and have her be honest about his TRUE behavior (because otherwise she lies about it to get us to accept him), I decided to meet with the two of them at a neutral place.  He had told me the many changes he was making to be a stand-up guy for my DD: working (loved that new job, which he says about every new job till he loses it or quits it), paying his share of bills, not drinking (DD had lied and told me he hadn't had a drink in a year, when even HE confessed that it had only been a month, and then beer doesn't count cuz he can drink beer all day with no problem), not reacting with a jealous rage when DD talks to or looks at another guy, not checking her cell phone repeatedly or texting/calling her nonstop when she is away from him, and his plan of studying for his GED, which we had heard many times.  He had me convinced that change was possible, even though he had no real incentive to change because my DD has been enabling him all this time.  But yet he never apologized for having threatened to get his friends together and beat up my husband while my husband was helping DD move her stuff out of his mother's house, that is, the stuff of hers that he hadn't already broken in his rage that day.  I was the one who brought up the topic of that threat, and told him that threat was directed at my whole family and that my DH is my life and it WAS a crime (whether drunk or sober) and if it happened again I would call the cops. He said, "I'm sorry, but all I can say is that wasn't me.  I don't normally do those kinds of things." Truth be known, he does.  He has been in many a fight, and in one especially serious one that occurred during the time he was first seeing my daughter, both he and DD said he had been randomly attacked and beaten, when in reality (as I found out from a mutual friend) he had been in a drunken brawl with a relative.  Still Learning, you made a good point that I really should have made a big deal about him trashing all her breakables during that drunken rage and told him THAT was a crime, too and how a man who REALLY loved and respected my daughter would never do something so violent. (at the time of that rage, neither DH nor I knew the full extent of what had happened, because she decided to move back in with him later that same night after DH had gone over there to pack her stuff in his car.  I only found out months later how bad it had been when she and I went shopping for college dorm supplies and she "needed" many breakable items that she confessed, on an as-needed basis, that he had broken them).

Shortly after meeting with him and my daughter this past summer, I had a sickening feeling looking at her spending habits, as she was still paying all the restaurant bills, gas for the car (he doesn't drive, legally, anyway), rent, etc, and I realized his talk was just all talk.  When she called me every other month telling me she was breaking up with him for one reason or another, it was clear he was not really trying to change.  The one thing that HAD changed is that she was calling me and telling me the truth about his behavior because I hadn't closed the door to him.  Ironically I had to keep the door open to get the real scoop on him.  But when she called this past fall and told me she had to call the cops on him because he had again gotten drunk and broken her things and who knows what else (the first thing she said to me was that he had not hurt her physically), I felt that I could not in good conscience see him again and show him any respect or fake happiness at seeing him or them together. 

It was at that time, this past fall, that I first encountered and wrote in to WWU.  I had consulted books on abused women, and some said that the woman needed a supportive person to be a sounding board and to give her strength if and when she was ready to leave.  I was on the fence about whether I could really be that person if it meant having to fake respect for this guy who has taken her down to such depths (willingly on her part, of course), when she had so much going for her.  But I didn't want to cause an estrangement either.  Some women on WWU suggested I might have been enabling and calling it love by agreeing to still see him while he treats her with such disrespect.  I felt incapacitated for a while, but the idea of choosing to have some peace in my life after all the pain, worry and sleeplessness my DH and I had endured seemed like a breath of fresh air, and I found that I could look forward to a good future for myself and DH without having the anxiety of their relationship in my face time and again. 

Still Learning, last night she caught me off guard when she asked when BF could come over to apologize.  My first reaction was anger at her for pushing him in my face yet again, as she has seldom taken no for an answer without a fight when she wants something. Part of me, when she pressed for an answer, wanted to equivocate or say, "When such and such happens, then we will be open", but we had already done that a year ago, saying that when he could keep a job for a year, pay his way, stay off alcohol and treat her respectfully, then we will talk.  This 23 year old has had over a dozen jobs and long periods of unemployment in the three years they have been together, drunken brawls leading to unpaid medical bills which he ignored even when we tried to help him understand collections and calling each creditor to make minimum payments arrangements. He has crimes and arrests in his history, and hasn't attended school since 9th grade.

DH and I concluded last night that we unequivocally agree and can express to her that we do not support the relationship, although we support her right to choose whoever she wants. Can people change?  Of course.  Is BF capable of changing?  Who can say?  That is DD's job to figure out.  Can we make him change?  Not a chance.  Past history says he doesn't really want to change, not in any meaningful and long-lasting way.  He is just looking for any easy way to avoid growing up, and he found the perfect enabler in my daughter. SHE wants him to change and thinks she is capable of changing him. Our daughter is dear and we love her very much.  Unfortunately we don't fully trust her.  Her past history of lying raises suspicions and doubts about many things.  I am thrilled she wants to have us in her life, but at the expense of our self-respect if we are forced to include him just so she is willing to see us?  We did that for the first year of their relationship, even when those red flags were flying high (and we didn't have all the hard facts we have today), even when she moved out to live with him and his enabling mother at the beginning of her senior year of high school, which was a devastation I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. She knows without a doubt we are always there for her, but not for him, if that makes sense.  She told me she wants us to be proud of him, but he said to her this past fall within my earshot that he doesn't care what WE think of him, only what SHE thinks of him.  I'd find it hard to believe that he has changed 180 degrees since then.

What I did say at the end of last night is that he should be concentrating on making her happy.  She said what would make her happy is if we accept him again.  i suppose I could say that if he is making her happy then we will be happy, and let's just concentrate on our own relationship right now, parents and AD, and she can concentrate on her own relationship with no timeline.  We can review it in 6 months, a year, whatever seems reasonable.  If we tell her what we expect, we are modeling what she should expect as well.  But again she will probably lie or omit about him and make it all seem good.

I am sorry this is so long and rambling.  If I may ask, SL, how did your family turn their backs, and what did you do that was different?  Did you agree to include her husband in your gatherings?  How did you reconcile treating him respectfully knowing what your sister was telling you about him?  Did you do medium chill ("Just the facts, ma'am", Dragnet-style....love that, by the way!)?  It is good for me to really think this out well.  BTW, after that talk last night, DD called this morning about our earlier plan of going shopping today, but we decided against it...too cold outside.  Her voice sounded fine; no trace of hurt or alienation.  No cold shoulder. That was good.  We do love her dearly and want the very best for her.

Sigh... My 20 year old DD, who is in the relationship with the abusive Peter Pan boyfriend that I've written about in prior posts, moved back to our city last month and into an apartment nearby with the BF. She called my husband soon after moving back to this area, indicating that she wants to have a good relationship with us again. But she told DH that she was worried about her relationship with me because last time we had talked, my body language had made her uncomfortable. I guess that was when I told her last fall that I did not want to see or hear about her BF anymore because he continued to make her life so difficult.  (I guess she blamed me, the messenger, for saying that, rather than accept the message, which I had said in a firm tone, but not an angry one).  Anyway, we have seen DD several times a week since she moved back, and she has been good as gold, almost to a fault, spending more time with us than even when she had lived in our home! I was somewhat suspicious about that. Well, tonight she said it: since it is a new year and time for new beginnings, BF is wondering when (not "if") he can come over to our house to ask forgiveness for threatening my husband (which was almost two years ago, and DH hasn't seen him since). I said that I thought I had made it clear that we didn't want to hear from him or about him anymore. She said, so you mean never? And I said yes, never.  It became clear as the conversation progressed that it isn't HE who wants to be a part of our life again, it is SHE who wants him in our lives again, and the only reason he would agree to any of this charade of an apology is because it would make HER happy and perhaps (this is my speculation) "save" their floundering relationship.  Well, I feel that all this time she has spent with us is just one big farce and manipulative tactic to get us to accept him yet again.  It is so sad to think that I can't trust her, that her doing my nails, hair, makeup, helping me host a dinner party for our friends, just hanging out, etc, has all been part of a grand plan to bring BF back into the fold as if nothing ever happened.  I guess I just need to vent here in this safe space.  I know that staying the course is the right thing, and neither DH nor I have any intention of backing down on this at all. I guess we will see if she chooses to be part of our lives, knowing the door is closed to her boyfriend.  I just feel so disappointed that perhaps none of this recent closeness on her part has been genuine, but just another marketing strategy.  Thoughts, anyone?  Maybe my assessment of her motives is too harsh. If not, it's a sad commentary on our relationship. And our gullibility.