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While reading another thread, well, it prompted me to open this for discussion.

I've read so many women, including my own posts who write....
before my son got married, we had such a close and working relationship....

and we all did...however, what I failed to understand for such a long time is

Things change...when our son's take wives...they will change, we will never know them as we
did before they were married.  Why, B/c they've taken wives who should be first and foremost in they're lives now...

It's difficult for mother's to accept that, we feel, when our son's marry, we shouldn't have to change, at all....but unfortunately we do...otherwise, there will be trouble....

first we must realize, our son's have brought a whole new culture into our culture...she is not going to think and feel and believe like we do, b/c she was not raised by us, and she'd going to have a whole different. set of rules, beliefs...personal convictions...etc.

It would be like inviting a person of a different country to come and live with us...we would all clash at first until we learned each other's culture and traditions....

our son's will always love us, but never like when they were young....they have a wife now, who is first and foremost in his life...our job is over and her's is just beginning.  Yes, she is his confidant...his mother, his wife, his partner, his compantion, his everything...we are no longer needed to fulfill his needs and we must go with that change...

I really believe and I say this b/c I lived it...that we mother's have a hard time letting them go and understanding that...we forget, that this is not just our son's household, but our DIL's household as well, and we owe it to them both to respect that....but more so, understand that, without feeling rejected or threatened by our DIL's. 

I had a lot of growing up to do, and it took me 12 years to do it...and I know, this is a very sensitive and difficult, disheartening time of our lives...however, I also know, that when you give it up things start to change.  It's totally changing our own attitudes, b/c believe you me, once two women get off on the wrong foot, everything unfortunately escalates from there....and I think it's very important also to discuss perspectives...especially when it comes to women, we so see things differently...and tend to assume way to much...

please know, I say these things respectfully and only from my experience....but I do so think it is so worth discussing....

I believe we are here to learn, and while our problems are very valid, we still need to self examine if we are going to better the situation....and I believe in most cases, not all, we can better the situation...but it takes a lot of learning, hard work and ownership, as well as understanding, compassion and a willingness to listen. 

So has anyone picked up the book, Gifts of the Sea and read it?

I really wish all of you would...it's a very quick and easy read, but loaded with a whole lot of insight, which we all could take advantage of....

I'm not here to say anyone is wrong...I'm here to listen and share...and I hope change, which will be sucha an asset to all of us....

So, what do you all think?

Creme

Quote from: cremebrulee on March 26, 2010, 11:02:16 AM
While reading another thread, well, it prompted me to open this for discussion.

I've read so many women, including my own posts who write....
before my son got married, we had such a close and working relationship....

and we all did...however, what I failed to understand for such a long time is

Things change...when our son's take wives...they will change, we will never know them as we
did before they were married.  Why, B/c they've taken wives who should be first and foremost in they're lives now...

It's difficult for mother's to accept that, we feel, when our son's marry, we shouldn't have to change, at all....but unfortunately we do...otherwise, there will be trouble....

first we must realize, our son's have brought a whole new culture into our culture...she is not going to think and feel and believe like we do, b/c she was not raised by us, and she'd going to have a whole different. set of rules, beliefs...personal convictions...etc.

It would be like inviting a person of a different country to come and live with us...we would all clash at first until we learned each other's culture and traditions....

our son's will always love us, but never like when they were young....they have a wife now, who is first and foremost in his life...our job is over and her's is just beginning.  Yes, she is his confidant...his mother, his wife, his partner, his compantion, his everything...we are no longer needed to fulfill his needs and we must go with that change...

I really believe and I say this b/c I lived it...that we mother's have a hard time letting them go and understanding that...we forget, that this is not just our son's household, but our DIL's household as well, and we owe it to them both to respect that....but more so, understand that, without feeling rejected or threatened by our DIL's. 

I had a lot of growing up to do, and it took me 12 years to do it...and I know, this is a very sensitive and difficult, disheartening time of our lives...however, I also know, that when you give it up things start to change.  It's totally changing our own attitudes, b/c believe you me, once two women get off on the wrong foot, everything unfortunately escalates from there....and I think it's very important also to discuss perspectives...especially when it comes to women, we so see things differently...and tend to assume way to much...

please know, I say these things respectfully and only from my experience....but I do so think it is so worth discussing....

I believe we are here to learn, and while our problems are very valid, we still need to self examine if we are going to better the situation....and I believe in most cases, not all, we can better the situation...but it takes a lot of learning, hard work and ownership, as well as understanding, compassion and a willingness to listen. 

So has anyone picked up the book, Gifts of the Sea and read it?

I really wish all of you would...it's a very quick and easy read, but loaded with a whole lot of insight, which we all could take advantage of....

I'm not here to say anyone is wrong...I'm here to listen and share...and I hope change, which will be sucha an asset to all of us....

So, what do you all think?

Creme

Creme,
I appreciate your thoughts, I really do.  I understand things change but some of us have done nothing wrong to deserve this kind of treatment.  I'm sure there are some who have done something but "something" doesn't give anyone the right to treat others with the kind of disrespect that's been heaped on us.

We're people, not some kind of human trash basket to use when someone gets full of garbage.  I feel that that has been done to us, my husband and myself.  I know the boys don't need me and want me the same as they once did.  I never expectected they would.

I'm personally thrilled for you that your DIL and son have made contact with you. It is a blessing.  Mine have systematically worked to cause horrible damage between brothers, kids, Mothers and Fathers.  Deliberately hurting the other one so much that no repair is possible now.

It is beyond heartbreaking to me and totally uncalled for.  I look at the work I've put in into their lives, buying, babysitting, loving, caring, counseling, giving, you name it and it's been all for nothing.  Never there when the chips are down, never there for anything except more giving and all the things listed above.

If there was one single ounce of anything to hold on to, I'd stand on my eyelashes to welcome them back.  One had to extracate the son from us in order to control him....a sorry sight to see.  The other, though done with fine kids gloves, did it in a more lethal way with kindness and pretend devotion to us.  Then, you look around and what she did was treat her husband's brother like a dog and his wife, worse.

It leaves us with nowhere to turn, nowhere to be.  If we are with the lethal one, it leaves our other son and his kids out of the picture because both cannot be in the equation.  She is only interested in her 5 family members, just them, her husband, her dies only.  No room for others.

She was doted on by her parents, spoiled to the bone.  Now, she's teaching her own kids that all that matters is money.  They have spoken about that.  A hard thing to hear from your grandchild.  "Money is all that matters".

I might remind all of you reading this that Christmas before last, she relented and said she'd visit our son and DIL in their home the day after Christmas.  She spent the entire time taking her kids horseback riding, leaving 3 little boys, not her kids, in the house to watch their cousins leave to go.  The heartlessness of that leaves you speachless, or at least it did me.

I never expected anything special but I did expect to be accepted and loved as the Mother of their husbands.  This has been a long hard road for me and it has made me so sick in the meantime.  Each year, I get worse.  All I ever asked was for a family and that is the one thing denied me.

Yet their Mothers, one a reformed alcoholic and the other, the town gossip, the table whisperer, gets the royal treatment.  It's not fair but I know life isn't fair.  Far from it.  I never expected to be wined and dined and then uncermoniously dumped, all the while making life unbearable for another son and his wife.  I'm like a 7 year old who just lost their Mother...I don't know where to turn anymore.  I'm just watching my life drift away.  These things do kill. 

I understand all your points and I do appreciate them but some of us are at our breaking points, like me.  I know that evverything will work out beautifully for you.  I wish you the best.  :)

I'm sorry Chickie.  Your situation is so parallel to Luise's and I agree with her perception that sometimes there just isn't a solution, except to move on and remember that you had a happy life before you had children, trying your best to find that life again.  It sounds sad at first, but dwelling on "what should be," can hurt (and maybe kill as you said), while thinking about your possibilities may open doors for you to come to grips with reality and move on to be that happy person again.  And I've seen that happy woman come out.  She's awsome!

thank you, it's just so hard. 

I know that too.  YOU are awesome, Chickie.  Too awesome for the treatment you are getting.  I hope you see that and lean on your wonderful husband!  He is still there in your own future and I envy you.  Did you know that?  I don't think I ever had a husband who truly loved me and I've had two.  I am satisfied without my husband and have learned to look at me for happiness now.  I believe you can find that with his help.  God gave you a companion who loves you and will be there with you for the rest of your life.  Our children grow up and have no need for us anymore, but a spouse like yours is golden and will be a part of your life always.  I do understand your feelings about your DIL.  I also agree more than I probably should put into words.  And, I wish I could be there to hug you in person!  I believe you need a hug - a real one.  Can you ask your hubby to give you one for me?

thankyou again, Coco....I appreciate it so much.  Two DILs who have caused terrible damage is so hard on my heart! I do appreciate my husband.

No things don't stay the same....but, one love doesn't replace another.  Does one stop loving one child when another is born?  Of course not.  You heart expands to love more.  The more people who are added to your family the more your heart grows.  A love for a wife never replaces a love for a mother.  No one would ever suggest a woman not confide in her mom because she has a husband.  No one would ever suggest she stop being "daddy's girl" because she has a husband.  It should never be suggested by word or deed that a man's mother is any less valuable than a woman's.

A marriage of one's son should never be about forgetting his FOO, but about adding his spouse to it and him to hers.  I didn't stop worrying about, caring about or loving my oldest son when he got married.  I didn't stop worrying about, caring about of loving my daughter when she married.  I don't intend to stop worrying about, caring about my younger son because he is getting married.

My children's marriages meant to me I got bonus children in my wonderful DIL and my fun loving SIL.  If my FDIL doesn't want to be added to this...well, that is her problem and loss, not mine. 
Just my .02.

Creme, I know you are coming from a place of love and just want the best for us. It surely would help if we could accept the way things are now and move on. I agree that nothing stays the same, but sometimes we get hit with unneccesary, sudden changes that aren't part of the natural progression of life; when they're created by a third party (DIL) who has no interest in us, it's hurtful.

We've been wonderful ILs, but since she can't stand anything about us it doesn't matter. Apparently we were supposed to spawn DS and go downstream (or is it upstream?) to die.

Yes, I am coming from a place of love...I know that it can't be in some cases, but I would like for everyone to settle they're differences with they're families...families are just that, and shouldn't have problems in them...or people not talking  to each other...

Relationships with family are the most emotionally intense.  The bonds between adult family members are the highest level of attachment, affection and commitment.  When serious problems emerge within family members intense postive emiotional investment can be turned into intense negative  energy very quickly...

So, I decided for the first time in all these years...I wanted badly a relationship with my son, DIL and GD.  So what was more important, having that relationship or being right?

It didn't matter to me anymore, who was right or  wrong, what mattered most was, all this time we were missing...I had to do something...

So what I did was listen to my son, instead of defending my postion....for the first time, I wanted to learn  what it was that was bothering/hurting my DIL.   Yes, some of those things were small things...however, they were not small to her...just like the things she did, she considered large, were small to me...and I realized for the first time....that if she were what my son said she was, that I was loosing out on knowing her.  I realized, that under these unfortunate circumstances, people react to rejection differently...and the monsters come out in all of us...I realized, that she might be hurting just as much as I was....

I decided to write her a letter...one of which was different from the letter written here in this forum to DIL...I put myself in place of that DIL and wondered how I'd feel if someone wrote me that letter making demands...I listened to all of you here telling your stories...and while valid...I realized, through a lot of soul searching, that I had to try, I had to listen to her side...

So I wrote her taking ownership explaining to her, that everyone's perceptions of a situation are different...everyone....you take a traffic accident...when an officer walks around getting witness reports, every report is different...why?  As time goes by, say a day or two, you go back and ask those same people to testify again, once again perceptions change...

Once I took ownership and stop pointing fingers at my DIL...and I for the first time, WANTED to listen to her...I could not believe the things I had done that hurt her...I even thought, How dare I go into her home, her sanctuary and do those things...I wouldn't do that if I was visiting someone else's home...why would I do it in HER home?

Son's grow up...they become adults, and no longer need our nurturing....they take a wife and that woman now becomes his mother, his confident, his everything.  Does he love us any less....no...however she is now his priority because he loves her as a wife...he will protect her even if she is wrong...because we raised our boys to be loyal.
And I wouldn't expect anything less. When I look back to when I first became a wife...I felt lost, scared...his family was so overwhelming...and suddenly, I had to become a part of they're traditions...I wasn't allowed to make my own...with my husband and son...everything had to evlove around them...it wasn't fair...my MIL was a powerful woman...controlling, and I realize,  we are all somewhat controlling, some of us, more then others...

So, what I'm saying is...yes, things change extremely, and that is where the word allowance comes in...are we willing to allow our son's they're time in life?  Or do we take offense, b/c they don't call us as much anymore, or don't confide in us any longer...or are we going to understand, they now have a whole new life...a new confident and companion...and we must take a back step a little to allow them to enjoy life with that new woman.

I sometimes feel very disloyal to all you, and actually feel guilty and sad, b/c I am now getting along with my DIL...there are no giant steps by any means...this is all going to take a lot of hard work on my part...I'm letting go of the past...what happened in the past doesn't matter any more, what matters is, that I have some kind of contact with her...I do love her...b/c my son loves her...and I value his opinion, right or wrong...he has many reasons for his feelings and I must respect those feelings....and hers as well.  He has changed extremely, b/c he's living with a woman outside of my own families traditions...and that's ok...she and he together are making they're own traditons, as it should be...and I have no expectations....

I suppose it's easier for me, because I've been kind of a hermit all my life...I don't need people or depend on them for happiness...I entertain my self, go away on vactaions on my own...I don't depend on anyone...and perhaps that is also what helped me see these things...

But if I can let go of my pride, and submit...let go of thnings that happened in the past...well, I can't explain it to any of you, it's like a brand new awakening...I've awakened in a different world, a different life, with different views....and I guess it's because I dropped my pride and listened and took ownership for my own behavior...right or wrong, it no longer mattered....and our DIL's know, and feel and hurt, just as we do....

I know they're are extenuating circumstances...and things that cannot be fixed...however, I don't believe that...I believe there isn't any disagreement that can't be fixed, however it takes two very wanting  people who are willing to drop they're pride, and they're insatious desire to be right and say, yanno, I could be wrong...

I'm not saying our son's love us less....however they love they're wives more in a very different way...and that is the way it should be...they still remember, they still love us, but, it became time for them to move on....onward and upward...and that is very hard to understand....we expecct them to stay the same, for things to stay the same, and when they decline our invitations to dineners, we take it as a personal attack...when all they want to do, is weither be alone together with they're family or go somewhere else...and our son's are happy to try things out of the traditions we raised them up to believe in...

I'm only trying to help others see...and I've listened to the DIL who come in here and how they feel without taking offense...and once you can do that, your perspectives change.  I've seen DIL's come in here and post they're true feelings...some are off the wall, however, some are valid, but our prides refuse to listen to them and see they're points of view...and we attack them right away...and that isn't how we're going to learn....we must listen to them and discuss the issue...instead of being appauled that they've had the nerve to come into our little haven and post they're points of view....How dare they?  Well, I say, we need to listen and not take what they say as a person attack, but really listen if we want to progress, cause if we can get over that human insttinct to want to defend ourselves, we can now begin to listen.  And Learn...

I'm sorry there are so many errors, however, when I type, something happens in the box and I can't see what I'm typing...I also want to say...that I am sorry that I am getting along with my DIL, Well, I'm not sorry, however, I feel guilty when I come in here, b/c now some of you may view me as not one of you...it makes me feel guilty...like I shouldn't be here....well, maybe I shouldn't....but what I started wanting to do was thi8s...I decided, I didn't want to c omplain or gtell my stories any longer...I wanted it to end...I was sick of it, and if it were going to end, I had to change my attitude...and feelings about the entire thing....I was the one who was going to have to change this...and I also learned, that I wasn't always right...I did wrong things to....that I refused to acknowledge....again...forgiveness has to be real and a wanton so bad...your willing to change your perspectives and listen...

another thing I want to project....when my son fought with me over this, I was hurt beyond belief...I was the mother, the adult, and for all those years, right or wrong, my son listened to me, b/c he had to, b/c he was a child...I wasn't always right, but I did the best that I could do at the time mentally...however, doesn't mean he always agreed with me...he knew he had to....so now, he becomes an adult, he goes off into the world to make his own choices and his own decissions...but I still expect him to listen to my advice...and take it...well, he's not going to, especially when there is another human being in his life, who he loves as a wife...he is going to point blankly tell me, that is not the way they do things....

Some people love they're parents to go on vacations with them...others do not...others want they're immediate families to enjoy this vacation on they're own...it's not b/c they hate us...it's because they want this to be they're time...


They don't think and feel like we do...anymore....I've observed working relationships between DIL's and  MIL's...and I've seen how mothers take a back step understanding that they're sons are now adults...

they don't want our advice....they don't want our opinions....no matter how much we've done for them or do for them...and I relized, I cannot expect my son to feel that I am right...what I feel is right for me, isn't right for him...I realized, I learned by making my own mistakes...some very unfortunate mistakes with lifetime consequences, but that is life...it's all in how we each perceive....

Love is unconditional...it means, we allow, and  it is a love that God meant us to know...but loving someone  isn't always easy, loving someone sometimes means loving them when it's  so  darn hard to...regardless of who is right or wrong...and that is what it  boils down to, which is more important, wining, or steping back and allowing, and inside knowing your right, but letting them go forward and do they're own thing...live they're lives...regardless and supporting they're decissions, even though we feel they may get hurt or may make a mistake. 

Our son's don't forget us, however, they grow up and move on...and that is the way it is...nature is part of life, and so is change...

In understanding these things, I've not only gained my son's respect back, but also my DIL's, and I know realize, this is they're life...together...and I won't take anything personal if they decided to do something that I don't think they should do...I'll respect they're decission...b/c it's not about me, it's about them...who they are togethr as a couple....

Chickie, I felt like I did nothing wrong, and said it many times on other forums...however, from my perspective, I didn't do anything wrong, but when I really started listening to my DIL's point of view...I realized, I had...something I said, which was not intended to be taken that way...something she did, which she didn't mean to hurt, me, she was just being herself, as I was being myself.  Something happened in the very beginning, she thought I was jealous that she took my son away...I thought she was jealous of me....well, we were both wrong, what happened was our ideas of how things are done, clashed...and escalated from there, and from that point on, there was nothing both of us could do to help each other realize, that we were just being ourselves...and I  also had to realize, this was her house, not my son's home...meaning...while my son lives there, so does she, and she does not think and feel like my son...it didn't give me any right to walk into her home and do things as I normally did...

We women can be really mean spirited when we think and believe someone doesn't like us...and I'm not saying, my situation is like everyone elses....however, what I am saying is, when we are able to drop the hurt, anger and try to view things from a whole different perspective, things do change, why?  Because our attitudes have changed. 

When I read some of the DIL's stories, I was so thankful that I was not like they're mols...however, my DIL perceived me to be...and I had to change that...and I fouond a way....and it was sincere....

I hope and pray for all of you...that you will not take my words as an insault or now look at me as an outsider...however, I am not going to agree when I feel, some of you are wrong...and I'm going to try like anything to help you see where I was...right there with you all....I want peace for all of you...and goodness....

Hi Creme.  I don't think anyone is upset that you are getting along with your DIL.  I see that as a huge step and one to be proud of, for you.  I think that you took steps that were right in your own situation and found a common ground to work from.  I also believe you will continue to put your own efforts out there to meet your DS and DIL on their terms.  That's a wonderful thing.

I guess what I'm getting from all of this, is that your have leaned toward listening to only what the DIL is saying.  That is great, but I also have to say that without that same effort being returned, it's a mute point.  I have been eager to welcome DIL's on this site and believe they play a very important part in our healing here, as well as we do for them.  I think when the DIL's come through that upsets the women here, there are usually signs that they are not what they appear, or red flags that are seen by the other women, and personally speaking, I don't want to invite trouble.  I know the moderator can always kick them out, but in the process their exposure can also create a divided site which is not productive here.  I did see that happen about a month ago, and after giving my opinion, I simply opted out of the conversations.  I'm not saying there was no purpose to them.  Just that I saw what it was doing to the other women here and didn't participate after seeing that.  There are some who just are not a fit here.  Just as there are DIL's out there who are not going to make the efforts yours seems to be making to accept her husbands family.

The relationships I have that I believe are healthy, are two sided.  In other words both people make the effort in that situation to be understanding - not just understood.  There are so many facets to family relationships to consider, but I believe everyone is in agreement (at least from my observations) that when their sons get married the dynamics change.  That doesn't have to mean being treated as "less than," which I think is unhealthy.

So I am accepting your situation personally, and do believe it is a good thing for you and I am truly happy you are working things out in a positive way.  I just don't think that way is the only way for some of us.  I know I seem to have a good relationship with my DIL now.  Again, alot of dynamics are at play, but my situation is different and not everyone would be able to work on it.  I am considerate and understanding, but I can promise you that if I was not considered in return, it wouldn't work.  I don't offer my opinions to my DIL and really don't want to know about "their" relationship.  It's their marriage, not mine.

Anyway, I believe everyone here is happy for you, but I also believe it's healthy to consider everyone's feelings and views.  Not just the views of DIL's.  Isn't that what we are here for?

Quote from: cocobars on March 27, 2010, 04:17:27 AM
Hi Creme.  I don't think anyone is upset that you are getting along with your DIL.  I see that as a huge step and one to be proud of, for you.  I think that you took steps that were right in your own situation and found a common ground to work from.  I also believe you will continue to put your own efforts out there to meet your DS and DIL on their terms.  That's a wonderful thing.

I guess what I'm getting from all of this, is that your have leaned toward listening to only what the DIL is saying.  That is great, but I also have to say that without that same effort being returned, it's a mute point.  I have been eager to welcome DIL's on this site and believe they play a very important part in our healing here, as well as we do for them.  I think when the DIL's come through that upsets the women here, there are usually signs that they are not what they appear, or red flags that are seen by the other women, and personally speaking, I don't want to invite trouble.  I know the moderator can always kick them out, but in the process their exposure can also create a divided site which is not productive here.  I did see that happen about a month ago, and after giving my opinion, I simply opted out of the conversations.  I'm not saying there was no purpose to them.  Just that I saw what it was doing to the other women here and didn't participate after seeing that.  There are some who just are not a fit here.  Just as there are DIL's out there who are not going to make the efforts yours seems to be making to accept her husbands family.

The relationships I have that I believe are healthy, are two sided.  In other words both people make the effort in that situation to be understanding - not just understood.  There are so many facets to family relationships to consider, but I believe everyone is in agreement (at least from my observations) that when their sons get married the dynamics change.  That doesn't have to mean being treated as "less than," which I think is unhealthy.

So I am accepting your situation personally, and do believe it is a good thing for you and I am truly happy you are working things out in a positive way.  I just don't think that way is the only way for some of us.  I know I seem to have a good relationship with my DIL now.  Again, alot of dynamics are at play, but my situation is different and not everyone would be able to work on it.  I am considerate and understanding, but I can promise you that if I was not considered in return, it wouldn't work.  I don't offer my opinions to my DIL and really don't want to know about "their" relationship.  It's their marriage, not mine.

Anyway, I believe everyone here is happy for you, but I also believe it's healthy to consider everyone's feelings and views.  Not just the views of DIL's.  Isn't that what we are here for?

Coco, I do understnad, that my situation isn't like everyone elses....and I do consider eveyrone else's views and feelings...and that they can't all be like mine...and yes, your right, I do understand we have to consider everyone's feelings, I'm not saying we shouldn't....and I believe by now, you all know me well enough to know, that I'm not debating that point of view....

I totally understand coco, more then you may know...I'm simply throwing some ideas out there that we may be able to practice...even if, we know our personal situation isn't going to change...however, it sure made me feel better inside when I changed my attitude and started to forgive...

I can't wave a magic wand and make everything better for everyone here, I really really wish I could...I do....

Coco, you said this

So I am accepting your situation personally, and do believe it is a good thing for you and I am truly happy you are working things out in a positive way.  I just don't think that way is the only way for some of us.  I know I seem to have a good relationship with my DIL now.  Again, alot of dynamics are at play, but my situation is different and not everyone would be able to work on it.  I am considerate and understanding, but I can promise you that if I was not considered in return, it wouldn't work.  I don't offer my opinions to my DIL and really don't want to know about "their" relationship.  It's their marriage, not mine.

and that is exactly what I'm trying to project, but it's not coming our right...however, I also believe, that some how, some way, we've got to give peace a chance, all of us...and let things go, and try to understand...

I understand where you're coming from, Creme....I really do.  Unlike you, I see my DILs, both of them on a semi-regularly basis.  One DIL, I devoted my time, my heart, my life to.  She is a vampire in the worst way, a user, manipulator who turned her husband against his brother and his wife.  Heartbreaking!

We have 2 different stories, you and I....very different.  I see the other DIL too and feel desperately sorry for her that she has had to endure the wrath of the DIL I once called CDIL.  Far from being innocent, DDIL did not deserve being systematically pushed out of our family to make CDIL the supreme allied commander.

Don't feel badly about telling us your victories.  I for one and thrilled for you.  My stories are ones where it would likely be best if we didn't see them both at all.  I will not have that but I could just as easily turn that way if this behavior continues.

I see the way good families behave and it's not like this.  We were far better parents than some we know who have loving and considerate grown kids. 

As far as the DILs who have come here....they have, for the most part been so kind and curious and dearly wanting to understand what is going on in the new families they are inheriting.  Some though, have come in only to tell us off.  That, we don't need.  We are hurt enough.  They have been few, about 2 and they're gone now. 

I want to hear what they have to say.  They present a different view that I so desperately need to hear.  When it is said in love, it is received in love.

Again, my congratulations to you......sometimes I think you're lucky.  We see ours and you have not.  You can start this journey again and don't have to see it daily.  Many blessings.

2chickiebaby

Thank you for coming in, and I do understand  where your coming from and your situation, I'm not saying that everything I'm saying is applicable to everyone's situation....I understand your situation...however, there are situations that can be  fixed...and due to my own situation, I actually started to tell myself, over and over again, that some of these issues are really silly...mine, not yours...but they escalated..and I honestly believed, my DIL was a terrible person, but she isn't. 

As far as the DIL's coming in her, I know some of us view them as telling us off...but maybe, just maybe they are not...maybe they are scared beyond belief...not all, but some, and trying to re-interate a different perspective but using a wall of anger, due to they're own situations...granted, it's not right, but if we could view them in that way, instead of taking it that they are personally attacking us, we'd make some ground....what they might be doing is interjecting they're own feelings into the situation, but do it with hostility...again, not the right way...but if we listen, maybe we could all gain something....yes, there are some DIL's who come thru who are mean spirited and just looking to start trouble...however, I believe and maybe I'm naive, that some of them just do not know how to explain themselves in written words, so they're voices in they're words come off angry or attacking when it isn't meant that way....all I'm saying is, lets try and weed them out....not all of them are coming in here to start trouble...

and Chickie, I'm very very sorry this has happened to you, please know, I'm not trying to dismiss anyone's situation...or say, it's your fault....I'm not....I just hope somehow, someway, someone sees what I'm trying to interject...I know it seems like I've taken the other side....

Here is an example...when my DIL was born, the first thing I said to him was...when you take her to Disney for the first time, please let me go along....I wanted to be there...it was fulfilling my dream...however, I know, he knew, his wife wouldn't like that, as it was they're first time with they're child and she wanted to experience that between just them...I can certainly  understand that, b/c I remember feeling the same way when my MIL wanted to come along on our first trip to Disney with my son...I didn't dislike her, I just wanted to do this vacation without her...she was controlling and I knew she would want to do and experience things I didn't want to do, and if they were paying for it, I would have to do they're bidding...

Smae thing with going on a bus trip...I hate it, it is so schedule regimented...I like a relaxing vacation, with no clocks, no TV, no computer....just relax and read and explore at my own leisure...I don't go to dinner when I think it's time...sometimes I ate once a day....but if  I'd share that vacation with someone, I would have to c comply to they're way of doing things, and I don't want to....if I'm paying for a vacation, I want to enjoy it my way...not they're way

and that is just another example of the differences and how people view things...I guess b/c I had a controlling MIL, who was Strong willed, like me...I can now relate that to my DIL?

I am controlling b/c I've lived basically alone all my life, and used to doing things my way....we're all controlling to some degree...

I am astonished how nice my DIL is to me now, and what Coco said about respect is very true, it couldn't happen without two people involved....two people have to want to do it together....however, when I wrote her that letter, I had no expecations...and I vowed, I would again write her from time to time...even if she didn't answer, and I would continue to send her birthday cards...regardless of the outcome...but to my surprise, she wanted it to...and it was by my words and ownership of the situation that she to listened...we were both surprised at how we took each other's actions and it was humbling....

Im' very sorry if anyone thinks I'm being indifferent or against them....I'm not...I would just really like to discuss these  situations, as a group...for instance, take one situation that happened to someone and view it from all perspectives....to consider DIL's feelings...it's not about being right or wrong, it's about how someone thinks and feels, and while we may not believe we did anything to hurt anyone's feelings, we all do that many times in our lives, without thinking, someone at work is hurt by what we say, but we never realize it, b/c they never said anything....however, I know, I've hurt others, without even realizing it...we all do...and I've been hurt by others, but they didn't intend to hurt me, they just made a comment that wasn't even related to me, however, I took it personal.

and I will see this journey with my DIL every single day...it's still there, I will constantly have to realize, that what she is doing is nothing against me, it's just the way she is...and when that happens, things are not taken personal....

we made a pact, that if each one of us says anyting, that hurts the other, we're going to address it right then and there, that in itself is going to be a work in progress, b/c if and when my turn comes, and she points out something that hurts me, it's the way I address it, that is goin to make all the difference...if I take offense, and start getting defensive, then all will be lost....if I listen to her, and tell her, nicely, warmly and sincerely....I didn't mean to hurt you, I'm sorry, or I didn't mean it like that, I will try harder to consider your feelings...do you see what I'm saying?  If I don't change my attitude, things could be right where we started, and I guess I've learned my lesson...my kids live far away, and I'm not about to say anything or do antying any more to jeaprodize feelings or seeing them....even if I feel I'm right, she is not viewing it that way, doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, means it is hurting her, so I'm going to stop hurting her....whatever it takes.

Heres something else I want to project...one of my counselors/advisor's said...
"this is like a love triangle, two women fighting over one man"....my first reaction was ewwwww....I don't want my son to feel like that...but he was...more then anything else, our son's want our approval, and when we interject negativity, that in itself is saying to them we don't approve.  Hence the only thing for them to do is distance themselves from us...they don't want to, but they don't want to fight about it, and for everything we say to them, human instinct tells them to go back to  they're wives and ask them about that situation...which she say differently or perceived differently...she gets defensive, hurt and feels like he's saying she is lieing, or she  is wrong...or he is siding with me...I've been there with my MIL, and that feeling is God Awful...I felt like he was siding with her...so what to do?  I decided, he needs to side with his wife, and if anything was going to change it had to be me....I'm not saying she  was wrong and I  was right, or visa versa...what I'm saying is, it escallated beyond normal...and I was being very immature...so, how in the world could they respect me...as long as I had to be right?  This wasn't just about my feelings and hurt, it was about his...hers, my GD...all of us were loosing out so much....

I cannot even begin to imagine the pain my son was going thru over this, he was caught between us...when trying to give me his wife's point of view...I took it like he thought I was lieing...not trying to make me understand how she was taking things...and when he tried to interject my point of view to his wife, she was so  hurt, she thought he was trying to say, your wrong, and taking my side, he wasn't, he wasn't taking sides, he was trying desperately to make us both see we were wrong about each other...and then to hear, they did go to counseling b/c of me, I was hurt beyond words....it was the strain this was putting on they're marriage...not me, but the strain that was killing them...I didn't want to be responsible for that....I wanted happiness for them, so I finally decided I had to do someting to correct this...can you understand the strain this correction would take off of him....it was my responsiblity to let them alone...let them live and enjoy they're life, the way the two of them agreed upon mutually, withou my input or interferance...

I wanted to get to know DIL...I don't really even know here....12 years is a long time, and I bleieve we both matured...we both learned someting from this, the hard way...at everyone's expense. 

You didn't hurt me, Creme.  We just come from 2 different places, that's all.  Mine is insidious and deliberate and totally cruel, something I cannot understand or tolerate.

I'd rather be with rank strangers than watch one of my DILs treat the other one and her kids with such disrespect and get away with it.  Leaving little boys sitting on a couch while watching their cousins go horseback riding is selfish beyond belief.

I sided with her on many occasions because DDIL was so rude to us.  I thought CDIL was taking up for us.  No, she wasn't....she was only projecting her own self-centered, selfish, control on her. 

Now, the Grandkids that I practically raised are being turned into the same kind of people, only interested in money.  Our son has a huge fear of his wife, which galls me to no end.  She has the money so there you have it.

I can tell now that the other son, married to DDIL has "had it" with his brother and his wife.  These once very close boys are no longer close.  You haven't lived till you live through that heartbreak.

So, no, you are lucky, Creme.  You get to start over but  there's no going back for me.

Quote from: 2chickiebaby on March 27, 2010, 05:24:48 AM
You didn't hurt me, Creme.  We just come from 2 different places, that's all.  Mine is insidious and deliberate and totally cruel, something I cannot understand or tolerate.

I'd rather be with rank strangers than watch one of my DILs treat the other one and her kids with such disrespect and get away with it.  Leaving little boys sitting on a couch while watching their cousins go horseback riding is selfish beyond belief.

I sided with her on many occasions because DDIL was so rude to us.  I thought CDIL was taking up for us.  No, she wasn't....she was only projecting her own self-centered, selfish, control on her. 

Now, the Grandkids that I practically raised are being turned into the same kind of people, only interested in money.  Our son has a huge fear of his wife, which galls me to no end.  She has the money so there you have it.

I can tell now that the other son, married to DDIL has "had it" with his brother and his wife.  These once very close boys are no longer close.  You haven't lived till you live through that heartbreak.

So, no, you are lucky, Creme.  You get to start over but  there's no going back for me.

but Chickie, what if you could go back?  But go back with a whole different attitude....like no matter what happens, your going to ignore it, and just be there....I know you can't chnage selfishness...and these things do break your heart....however, what if you would try, to ignore it....not react to it...and  just go forward with a whole different view point?  At least you'd be seeing them....please don't be upset with me....I'm not siding with them....what I'm saying is...work on changing your perspectives on the matter....let all of it go and ignore they're behavior...I know that is very very very difficult...however, again I ask you, and please think about this...and please don't be angry with me, but what if...you stopped being right, and interacted....yes, they are selfish, and they've treated everyone horrible, but what if youwould ignore it all just to be with them once in a while...?

Creme, you're right...if I could go back, I would ignore it, not take it personally.  Yes, I would.  I would love that.  I have wished a million times that I could do that. 

It is not my nature to understand "mean" and control and cruelty.  I have no idea how to react but with devastation.  I am in counseling now, thank goodness and I know that I have no idea what to do with this kind of hurt.  I hope I learn how.

I am not mad at you, in fact, I thank you.  I know you mean well.  I wish I could go back and ignore it.  Yes.

I am so happy to hear your in counseling Chickie, that is what helped me...the hardest thing for  us to do, is learn to ignore things that are hurtful...some people can do it automatically...I've oft times said, I wish I could be more like her or him...and strived towards that goal...it doesn't come all at once, it takes years...of hard work and reconditioning...it's not compromising your values or identity..what it is, is learning to control emotions and reactions to situations....without showing fear or negativity....I've still got a long way to go, believe me...I'm very stubborn and defend my personal institutions, however....I know, I'm not always right...and know that life is filled with constant learning...so I want to progress myself to be a better person...I don't want to be right, especially when it comes to my son's relationship with my DIL....he loves her dearly and that is all I want for  him...to experience love regardless if I am there or not...he is my first priority, and so is his peace and happiness....I will not stay in any relationship that is strained...or lacks respect....and I now my DIL has been thru many similar childhood situations that I as in...so I can understand....and acknowledge, that I myslef was insecure...and unaware of so many things....I'm not saying you are, I'm simply sharing my story...who I am...I cannot speak for anyone else here...but in sharing my story, perhaps there is one small thing which might help another person, and there came a time in my life, when I got so sick of talking about it, and self pity, and hurt...that I decided, things had to change, I had to change, and it's not easy...however, my soul does feel much better....I don't want to hurt anyone...

also, I watched the young confident girls at work, who are really wonderful gals...and thought, there is no way this would be happening to them...why, why is it me...why doesn't my DIL like me....it wasn't about that, it was about how I interacted and the confidence I lacked....my fears, my beliefs, and even my stubborness...

Chickie, I wish for you only the best that life has to offer....God gives us free will, the rest is up to us...we have the ability to be successful we just have to learn how to use that tool....

I took note that many of us in here are alike, we've all had really stinky lives, and bad situations happen to us, that has got to break down confidence, and cause us to react and take things personal a lot quicker then most...b/c we've been hurt...and I also considered that about myself....it was all self examination and had nothing really to do with my DIL....it  was how I reacted to things...through fear and insecurity...

My hope for this thread is, it always stays open and those of  you who have an issue crop up, use this thread for discussion about it...but we have to be honest with ourselves and be willing to discuss issues, and see another point of view to progress...but my hope is, that this thread becomes a tool to help us all together see there are other perspectives....besides our own...not to mention, it might help us all deal with bad relationships from a whole new perspective...by taking just one issue, and discussing it, dysecting it, and looking at it from another point of view...and I do encourage DIL's to also give they're perspectives...those of them that are here are very mature, wise and understanding...and they're feed back is so important, so that we may help each other...it isn't about right or wrong, it's about awareness, and opening up to different views, even if we don't agree with them...it's about change...which is more and more difficult the older we grow....and about dreams, and not expecting others to own the same dreams...ideas, feelings and perspectives...

Quote from: jkm426 on March 26, 2010, 08:38:16 PM
No things don't stay the same....but, one love doesn't replace another.  Does one stop loving one child when another is born?  Of course not.  You heart expands to love more.  The more people who are added to your family the more your heart grows.  A love for a wife never replaces a love for a mother.  No one would ever suggest a woman not confide in her mom because she has a husband.  No one would ever suggest she stop being "daddy's girl" because she has a husband.  It should never be suggested by word or deed that a man's mother is any less valuable than a woman's.

A marriage of one's son should never be about forgetting his FOO, but about adding his spouse to it and him to hers.  I didn't stop worrying about, caring about or loving my oldest son when he got married.  I didn't stop worrying about, caring about of loving my daughter when she married.  I don't intend to stop worrying about, caring about my younger son because he is getting married.

My children's marriages meant to me I got bonus children in my wonderful DIL and my fun loving SIL.  If my FDIL doesn't want to be added to this...well, that is her problem and loss, not mine. 
Just my .02.

jkm426,

I agree with you 100%.

Your post reminded of the framed poem my daughter gave me the day before her wedding...her husband also gave his mother the same framed poem (the ending was a little different)...

To My Mom

No Good-bye...

As I walk down the aisle,
Don't think it's the end,
You're not losing a child
But gaining a friend.

As I'm left at the alter
There's a tear in your eye,
But happiness blinds me
And I don't see you cry.

I want you to know,
Though my new life's begun,
That you still have your Daughter,
And now, a new Son.

I think everybody that comes to this site deserves compassion and respect.
I don't think all of us are looking for answers...just a place that will listen without judging. A place to tell a story and maybe find compatability and comfort.

I agree Rose.  Thank you and your too jkm for your insights.  Everyone is coming from different places and perspectives and the simple act of understanding is healing in itself.  The feeling of not being alone adds a positive value where none was before, but compassion and understanding are key here.  It's simple but I guess I'm pretty simple anyway.  All of our relationships come from different dynamics, but those things to me are the ones I can relate to healing.

Waking up one day and seeing I wasn't alone meant the world to me, but compassion and understanding for me is what kept me here.  My only expectation is to continue this cycle because it is so healing.  I don't expect everyone to agree with my perspectives, but I do feel that I am another shoulder to cry on and offer it proudly.  We are all learning in our own ways, no matter how differently those may be.

Quote from: RedRose on March 27, 2010, 07:33:53 AM
I think everybody that comes to this site deserves compassion and respect.
I don't think all of us are looking for answers...just a place that will listen without judging. A place to tell a story and maybe find compatability and comfort.

and I agree with you 100% RedRose, if it hadn't been for this site, and you gals, I don't know how I would have managed....

I guess, I'm just trying to help in my own way...I'm way to enthusiastic about what I've come to terms with and wanted to share my findings with you all...however, it had to be in my own time and place...

I know a lot of times that I post things, you girls don't agree....and that's ok...however...I hope you understand, my only concern is to help, not hurt....I really do care about everyone here...and only wish peace and happiness....to you all....

I apologize to you...and to everyone here....I don't believe anyone is grasping what I'm trying to say...it's me, not any of you....I'm so sorry...if I ofended anyone...maybe as in all things....I'm way to aggresive...women never liked me much..I'm very outspoken and direct....however...I was trying...and if you believe anything....please believe my heart is in the right place, just cannot, express myself in written words like some of you can....I'm sorry...

Sweet Creme, there is no room for apologies.  You are trying to do something good here and that is never something to be sorry about.  I do really understand your excitement and I know in my heart that you are trying to reach out to everyone and wave a magic wand!  LOL!

That's a good thing that comes from your heart!  I agree that everyone's situation is different.  What works for me will not work for someone else.  I can share, but it's my pain, my happiness, and my own feelings.  What you are going through is exciting and wonderful!  I for one, have seen some beautiful changes in your writing here!  Your mind and your words are much more positive.

I think you are trying to spread your happiness.  Is that right?

Sending you lots of love and big hugs...

Coco...compassion and understanding is why I continue to come here too. I value your opinion immensely.

Creme...you have been through so much and I am so happy that you have found peace with your son and dil. There is no need to apologize. I see you are very compationate about trying to help the dil and mil find ways to get along. You are able to say so much that I find difficult to put into words. I also value your opinion Creme.

Coco and Creme -  I always look forward your words, your wisdom, your feelings, your opinions...especially when it's compassion for the mil.
I would like to see MORE words of wisdom to the DIL from a mil point of view....every time.

Chicky - it's good to see you -  :) 

Creme, I think you are amazing. Your attitude towards the difficulties you faced in your relationship with DS and DIL has taught me so much. I'm so happy that your efforts have borne fruit! It does make me hopeful that someday we'll all have that. Please don't ever feel disloyal to us for having a good relationship with DIL. It's a wonderful, wonderful thing. :)

I think some of us have different situations and different types of DILs, so our solutions aren't going to be as reasonable. After finding out what my DIL thinks of us, I can't imagine her responding to me the way yours did to you, but that doesn't mean it will never happen.

your all so kind and understanding...I am a rich woman in all of you....
I just wish there were some way I could ease your pain...I've been there and know the black cloud that is always looming...

many thanks to all of you for your understanding and patience with me...it means so much....

Creme,
I just wanted you to know that I respect you and value your opinion.  Along with our other friends, I'm happy to know you are coming to terms with your relationship with your dil.  Isn't that the reason we are all here?  To find comfort in our similar situations and possibly brainstorm on ways to improve the relationships?  I found this site when I was searching for ways to be a better mil.  I'm so glad I found you all!!!!!!!!!!  I find myself praying for all of you when I lay my head down to sleep at night.  It's funny - I really feel your friendships even though we have never met in person.  Love and hugs, Hope

QuoteHope
Creme,To find comfort in our similar situations and possibly brainstorm on ways to improve the relationships?  I found this site when I was searching for ways to be a better mil.  I'm so glad I found you all!!!!!!!!!!  I find myself praying for all of you when I lay my head down to sleep at night.  It's funny - I really feel your friendships even though we have never met in person.  Love and hugs, Hope

That's exactly what I was trying to explain...thank you Hope...I know we can't all be on the same plain at the same time, no two people ever are, and I also know it took me years to come to where I am...Im so stubborn....but you said in a few word what it took me many paragraphs to try to explain....I want to be a better MIL to...more then you know...and by discussing situations that have happened, we might together be able to find more then one way to look at it...


I know not everyone is looking for answers...nor is it time for some to come to this point...it's all in stages, in our own time...I remember going into the DIL forums, and they did try to help...some were very cruel...some were laughing behind my back, but some did offer some constructive advice...at the time, I wasn't ready to look for answers, although I claimed to be...I wawnted to vent, to know that I wasn't being judged....however, even in they're meanness, some of them said things that stuck with me....but were angry b/c I wasn't able to see they're point of view at the time...I was even told, "it's time to get on with it...you need to let it go"....well, when every individual goes thru hurt, pain and depression you can't dictate to them how long they should morn....everyone is different...some can get over things quickly, some cannot...I could not at the time....

I realize, these situations and issues are very delicate and disheartening...but I just thought, perhaps we could discuss things from all points of view...sort of like a support group...ask each other questions...and trouble shoot the situation...

as I said, there was a time I was not ready and couldn't see the forest thru the trees...I was right and that was it....so, I do understand...we all have our journeys...some of you are further along then I am...and that's ok...it's all about our own time, our own tollerance, and how we deal with things...

It takes me a very long time to get over things...and to be able to see past my own feelings and look into the souls of others...however, I am learning...

Thank you so much Hope...

Well, Creme - I'm sorry.  I did misunderstand what you were talking about.  I thought you wanted to tell all of us what we needed to be doing and this post doesn't say that at all!  I believe your statements above are reasonable and yes, I would like to be part of your discussion if you will forgive my ignorance at the first posts, and allow me to read and comment with all of you.

I believe brainstorming is a healthy thing to be doing and with the amount of differing views here, this brainstorming post should be very constructive. 

If you forgive me...

no forgiven ness needed cocoa.....thank you for coming back...as I explained before, due to the MS, I know what I'm trying to say, it's all up there, however, it doesn't always come out right in written words for me....and people do take offense to my writings, or, don't understand what I'm trying to say...and I just can't get it out at times...plus, this is a sensitive subject, and as I explained before, one has to be ready to forgive and forget to want to move forward and learn from they're experiences...this thread wouldn't be for everyone...and 2 years ago, I wouldn't have been ready to explore an issue like this...there were those who suggested reasons of why my DIL was acting the way she was...and I wasn't ready to let go of the blame and anger....but then something happened, thru this forum and reading others, and I decided, I wanted to be a better MIL....I didn't want things to remain as they were, I was ready to explore her feelings, and listen, without getting defensive...I wanted to love her, and what hurt the most was the rejection...and not being able to see them....so, in my soul, of souls, I knew, I had to be the one to change...and I also kept saying, "There has to be a lot for me to learn from this, otherwise, it wouldn't be happening..."

And I'm not going to tell anyone what they should be doing...the only thing I can do is share my feelings and experiences....you can't dictate to people and tell them when it's time tostop hurting and move forward...people did that to me....I knew they were right, but I didn't know how to get there...I wasn't ready...then one day, it happened...and my whole attitude changed...I'd say over and over again, I don't like the person I've become because of this, and gradually over time, a little voice inside, kept saying to me, "Then change it!"  And I started to walk out into the light....

So, no, I won't dictate to anyone what they should be doing...you've gotta want it so bad you can taste it...I was tired of hurting...tired of the pain, tired of anger and pointing fingers...

Everyone's situation is different....and not everyone can resolve problems with stubborn people...people who are argumentative by nature...people who always need to be right...people who are self imposed or bullies...people who are mentally challenged with narcissistic behavor, or other mentally dysfunctional people....and there are a lot of them out there...

This thread should really die...b/c I don't feel I can help anyone...really...I remember, when I was going thru it...I didn't want someone to even suggest a solution...I wanted to cry about it, b/c the pain of it was so sever...I wasn't able to consider my son's feelings or  hers...I was hurting and that is all I knew...

I realized, I had a hard life...a lot of hard knocks...some have been thru a lot worse,however, I know these hard knocks left behind bagage, and one thing I knew is, I'm a very sensitive person...or used to be...and I did take peoples reactions wrong....one thing I've learned, is, just because someone doesn't act like I think they should act, doesn't mean they're wrong...I learned that we all have our own cultures...however, when someone disagreed with me, oh my God, I felt like they were stating I was wrong....they were not, they were simply sharing they're feelings with me, and how they beleived...and when I learned to stop thinking that way, I started to learn...from them..as well as, I started to listen...and not takes things as a personal attack against my culture or beliefs...

I don't want to hurt anyone, I am no body, just a woman, not a counselor, and I might do more harm then good, and this thread proves it....some really got upset with me, because they misunderstood my intentions...so, Coco...I really don't think this thread should go any further...actually...it was a very bad idea....

and to all who read, these were my feelings, I'm not suggesting anyone eles feels the same way or is the same as me...I am simply sharing with friends, who I am, and how I was...it's all I know...

I can only share with you my personality, who I was at the time, and am now...and all I can say is, I didn't like who I was, I'm not suggesting anyone here is like me...we all address situations differently, we all react differently, we are all unique in our own being....maybe that is what our paths are and meant to be...? I just simply didn't like where I was...and knew my own choices were at times clouded by that baggage and I knew my DIL had it pretty rough as a child to...and held onto that understanding and compassion...it's the rejection which tore me apart...but in the same, I was rejecting her, so I know she had to be hurting to, and I can't imagine what my poor son was going thru...all he wanted was for us to accept each other...all he wasted was peace...

one thing which really hurts, is the fact that some of you here, feel, I'm trying to tell you what you should be doing, then, in that case, I'm not doing anyone any bit of good...and I need to rethink, and consider everyone else's feelings here...

that is not a good thing, and I'm not doing anyone any good....not one bit....so, my intention to help, was totally misunderstood...and the last thing I want to do is hurt anyone...I can only express what I did, who I was, what I felt, and hope that from my testimoy, someone might be able to gain something from it...however, I see now I was wrong...b/c I know there are others here coca who felt the same way you did...and I apologize...

Hi Creme,

I disagree about this thread dying.  I think it's a constructive thread and worth exploring, now that I understand the concept.  I agree, it's not for everyone, but I believe it's good for the women who are ready!  And, even if some are not ready, they can read everyone's thoughts and relate to what's there for them in their own time. 

I do understand your problem with wording and I may not have MS, but I do overstate myself at times and upset people as well.  I try to keep on top of my own wording, because one thing I've learned is that when I say something that may hurt or insult someone else, I can't always take that back.  So I understand completely where you're coming from there, but have nothing to blame my problem on, other than ignorance - not thinking about how I am saying things might be taken before it is said.  One of the things about the women here I've noticed is that we all seem to make efforts to "understand," which I believe is important.  Understanding where someone else is coming from to me is the key to the kind of work we have to do in this life here.  I can make myself understood, but it's not always easy to understand someone else.  So many things can be miscontrued.  So I try to concentrate on "understanding" too.  They are both important in my case, because of my wording, and maybe in your case too.  Just different reasons why that is.

As far as this thread dying because you say you don't believe you can help anyone goes, I also think (and maybe I'm wrong) that by getting so many different views (negative and positive), our thinking becomes more open to possibilities, without even realizing it.  We begin to see things in other women's eyes as well as from where we stand.  The fact that this happens makes room for change.  It's just my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree with that.

Oh, and by the way, I'm just a nobody too!  I was somebody once.  I'm not really sure I want to go back and revisit that because of the lessons I learned and the fact that it almost took my life.  But being nobody gives me much more room to be myself!  So what you are telling me by stating you are nobody, is that your are real!  What we see is what we get.  I think that means you're really someone special who is truly sharing who you are, not who someone has told you to be.  Yep!

As far as you saying you need to re-think everyone's feelings, I agree.  I have to do that too, and it's not easy - sometimes I fail, but I'm still here and trying.  So are you.  I believe this wonderful place allows us to be human (and to me that's all part of it).  If we don't give up and go back in to give it another shot (as you did here with Hope's post), then so much can be gained!

I think it's good that you didn't take offense and are still back in here plugging away!  You're a much stronger human being for it.  So many people woud just give up, but you're showing determination to understand everyone here.  I realize you want to be understood, and that's all part of it.  The fact that you could understand and clarify is very important Creme,  I think you need to give yourself more credit there!

I see no need for your apology and feel the fact that I misunderstood deserved the apology.  HAHAHA!  Like I said, different views...

Hugging you and happy you accepted...

Creme,
I understand better what you're saying and in many ways, I think your DIL is a much nicer person than mine is.  Both of them.  I think you're very blessed in so many ways.

Thank you for your insight and your ability to understand, take ownership and resolve.  I think if you have willing participants, it's not as hard as when you don't.

We've both been struggling for years with DILs who are difficult to say the least.  Mine is, at least one of them, is the most self absorbed person I know.  Even villianous enough to drive out all who she has used over the years.  It's hard to reach someone when their heart is that hard. If she can't use you, you're out.  If you need the slightest thing, she's never there.  If our son was personally asked to show compassion towards us, he'd need to check with her first to see if it was okay.  Boy, what a deal that is.  I can't wrap my head around it.  If it wasn't okay with her, it would not be done.  This hospital thing for me was a wake up call to let me see that it's hopeless for us.  We needed our son and he was not there. 

I guess I'll keep trying but self-preservation has to come into play at some point for me.  I am overjoyed at your re-union and new relationship just around the corner. 

I agree with you Chickie.  I see your situation as so different in so many ways.  Where Creme found that she had to reach that place where she was "willing," I believe your DIL's have to reach that place for you.  I believe from what I know of you that you would forgive and work for a healthy relationship if given a chance.  I just believe you are not being given that chance.  I'm not saying that to hurt you and I hope it doesn't.  It's just my own observations from seeing and listening to both of you.

I hope some day you have that opportunity.  There is always a place inside of me that doesn't give up and sometimes I am surprised in a good way.  I hope this will work itself out for you, but I believe the ball is in DIL's court.

Hoping for change...  Hugging your neck!

I'm in tears here, can barely see the screen. We were shown yesterday, like Chickie, how things are and how they are likely to remain. Previously, DS had been nice to us even when DIL was being rude. Yesterday we saw how the brainwashing had been completed; it was awkward and awful. We were treated like an annoying duty, or an embarrassment, that had to be suffered through, even DDD, which breaks my heart. Unless DIL sees a reason to participate in building a relationship, and DS has to give her one, we're doomed. He's drunk the kool-aid, and I'm devastated.

Creme, I really need some of your "light." I'm afraid to walk towards it, afraid not to...but something has to change because I can't go through this anymore just to see my son. I'm sobbing now, sorry guys.

Quote from: penstamen on March 28, 2010, 07:55:38 AM
I'm in tears here, can barely see the screen. We were shown yesterday, like Chickie, how things are and how they are likely to remain. Previously, DS had been nice to us even when DIL was being rude. Yesterday we saw how the brainwashing had been completed; it was awkward and awful. We were treated like an annoying duty, or an embarrassment, that had to be suffered through, even DDD, which breaks my heart. Unless DIL sees a reason to participate in building a relationship, and DS has to give her one, we're doomed. He's drunk the kool-aid, and I'm devastated.

Creme, I really need some of your "light." I'm afraid to walk towards it, afraid not to...but something has to change because I can't go through this anymore just to see my son. I'm sobbing now, sorry guys.

Pen, I'm hugging you...

Can you tell what happened or are you to  upset? 

It's ok,  if you need some time...

Pen!!  My heart is broken for you!!!!! :'(

Thank you...I've got to get a grip. DDD and DH need me. I'm feeling the hugs and they really do help! Love you guys.

Quote from: penstamen on March 28, 2010, 09:01:26 AM
Thank you...I've got to get a grip. DDD and DH need me. I'm feeling the hugs and they really do help! Love you guys.

sometimes it's very difficult to get a grip when you hurt so much....please know we're all here for you if you need to vent, talk, yell, cry, whatever...we're all sisters....

Love you
Creme

Pen,
I can hardly see the screen either.  My heart goes out to you.  It's just so confusing - how, why????  We love you and I think I can speak for all of us - a big group hug is yours.

Quote from: penstamen on March 28, 2010, 07:55:38 AM
I'm in tears here, can barely see the screen. We were shown yesterday, like Chickie, how things are and how they are likely to remain. Previously, DS had been nice to us even when DIL was being rude. Yesterday we saw how the brainwashing had been completed; it was awkward and awful. We were treated like an annoying duty, or an embarrassment, that had to be suffered through, even DDD, which breaks my heart. Unless DIL sees a reason to participate in building a relationship, and DS has to give her one, we're doomed. He's drunk the kool-aid, and I'm devastated.

Creme, I really need some of your "light." I'm afraid to walk towards it, afraid not to...but something has to change because I can't go through this anymore just to see my son. I'm sobbing now, sorry guys.

Pen, I'm so sorry!  I had such hopes for you!  This is heartbreaking to hear!  Please come back and make a post so we can all find you and give you some much needed hugs and understanding!  I know this hurts and I hate hearing that you are so devastated.  I don't know what to say over this!  Just that I love you and you are so much better than the treatment you are getting! 

Did I ever tell you that you were one of the reasons I stayed in this forum.  I think everyone knows about Chickie, but Pen, you have such a big heart!  You were right there supporting me and loving me in spite of the fact that I was a total stranger, and I noticed that you replied to my posts, every one of them (from what I remember of you!).  You still reply to all my posts in a postive and caring way.  Please take care Pen and know in your heart that this behavior is beneath you!  Money doesn't buy class.  I'm sorry if that statement upsets anyone, but it is just what I believe.  Class is something that includes compassion and interest for everyone.  I don't believe class is about looks or money, but is something that shines from the inside.   This is what you've done for me and shown me all these months.  Please understand that I'm being honest.  What you see is what you get with me and I won't lie, but I will tell you what I see.

I see a wonderful woman with so much class and compassion being treated as if she's underserving.  Don't listen to it.  I hope you see yourself from others eyes here, because I know that this would get me down if it were me.   Step back and just read the other responses, and know that this is who you are!

Sending you big hugs!  LOTS of love, and keeping you in my thoughts and prayers! :'(

Pen, I can tell you, this takes the heart right out of you.  It does.  It makes you crazy....I searched for reasons for years and years nd still, it came down to pure, unadulterated selfishness on the part of my DILs (both of them) but one, the one I thought was
my friend is the worst.

They insist that the son, their husband, stand up to his Mother in front of her so she will feel superior. You can sit there and be a bump on a log, not saying one word and she has to be shown who is boss.  That's what they do.  It's their sole mission
in life.

Yes, I'm still bitter and I need to work on that.  It does nothing but hurt me.  The truth needs to get out there, though.

It will take some time for the transformation to take place...the Invasion of the Body Snatchers but just keep quiet and
don't let her have the satisfaction of knowing this hurts you.  The DILs get total joy out of making you sick. 

One of the reasons that I view other sites about hate for MILs is that the DILs can pick out the most hilarious situations to
hate us for....for instance, I'm paraphrasing:  "My MIL keeps my kids all week.  She had the nerve to ask DH to come over
and show her how to record on her DVR!!!  Why can't she do it?  She uses him for her surrogate husband!! She's a big time "N" It's my time with him!! Not the old hags time"!!!

Huh?  We're interfering just by breathing.  Pardon us for breathing.  Pardon us for living.

Hi guys, I'm still here. You are all wonderful, and I'm grateful to have a safe place to be myself. It helps to be able to talk about it, even if I can't go into a lot of detail - I'm afraid of being spotted by DIL. If that happens I'm totally gone. I had hopes too, Coco...basically DS is a good guy; he was raised with our values rather than materialistic ones, not that we ever said being successful and having nice things was wrong, just that they're things, and people should always come first. He's married into a family that believes their immediate family comes first, and then their money and material possessions. People, especially those they can't use for anything, don't even make it onto the radar. More and more DS is acting like them, although he stuck up for us at first. Our last visit with DS & DIL had all the usual awkwardness plus more snarky put-downs and rudeness by DIL and none of the good feelings from DS. He's being very distant to us and she's eating it up. Like you said Chickie, in her world we shouldn't even be breathing. Maybe this time it's all the more devastating because we had high hopes for a good outcome.

Quote from: penstamen on March 29, 2010, 08:14:23 AM
Hi guys, I'm still here. You are all wonderful, and I'm grateful to have a safe place to be myself. It helps to be able to talk about it, even if I can't go into a lot of detail - I'm afraid of being spotted by DIL. If that happens I'm totally gone. I had hopes too, Coco...basically DS is a good guy; he was raised with our values rather than materialistic ones, not that we ever said being successful and having nice things was wrong, just that they're things, and people should always come first. He's married into a family that believes their immediate family comes first, and then their money and material possessions. People, especially those they can't use for anything, don't even make it onto the radar. More and more DS is acting like them, although he stuck up for us at first. Our last visit with DS & DIL had all the usual awkwardness plus more snarky put-downs and rudeness by DIL and none of the good feelings from DS. He's being very distant to us and she's eating it up. Like you said Chickie, in her world we shouldn't even be breathing. Maybe this time it's all the more devastating because we had high hopes for a good outcome.

Pen, I soooo know what you're talking about!  Wish I didn't but I do...our stories are so alike.  The DIL is from a very
wealthy family. (the table whisperers who excluded all others from their conversations and no one was important except the 4 of them.)
Just about the most disgusting thing I have ever witnessed.

The DIL said, "money is all that matters"...yes, she said that.  She will use anyone she can.  I read once that when
people have no spiritual connection whatsoever, they often do this.  Money becomes their God.  She is raising her children
just like this.  So sad.  No at all the way we raised our kids.

The other brother and his wife have a rich spiritual life and money is not their God.  However, the DIL there is a bull headed
bear. I can't win with either one of them but I think with the bull headed bear, at least you know what you've got.

The "money is all there is" gal is lethal and can be cruel.  She has a friend who would lay down her life for her. This friend
wants everyone erased from my son's and DILs life but her and her husband and kids.  They have become surrogate
family members.  This friend treats us like space aliens. 

I want to give up but I keep going in like George Foreman and keep trying.  It's hopeless, though.  Any old cat could have a
better family with her kittens than I do.  And, it's all I ever wanted in this world. 

Hang in there, Pen.  The Invasion is setting in and D-Day will finish it.  Your son is only trying to keep the DIL happy right now.

I have a feeling that after the war, the effort will not have been worth it to him.

Thanks, Chickie. None of us deserve this. I'm feeling a bit stronger now, like I can try to get on with it; count my blessings, honor DH and DDD, finally love myself for who I am and not kick myself for being different than DIL & her family. It'll be hard since I'm good at putting myself last ("I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy" LOL)

QuoteI'm only trying to help others see...and I've listened to the DIL who come in here and how they feel without taking offense...and once you can do that, your perspectives change.  I've seen DIL's come in here and post they're true feelings...some are off the wall, however, some are valid, but our prides refuse to listen to them and see they're points of view...and we attack them right away...and that isn't how we're going to learn....we must listen to them and discuss the issue...instead of being appauled that they've had the nerve to come into our little haven and post they're points of view....How dare they?  Well, I say, we need to listen and not take what they say as a person attack, but really listen if we want to progress, cause if we can get over that human insttinct to want to defend ourselves, we can now begin to listen.  And Learn...[/size]

I have been reading, checking in, more than I post lately.  Creme, just want to say that this paragraph you wrote really spoke to me.

It's why I sought out this site, to get a point of view different from the one where I'm standing.  And yes, reading the words of others, seeing things from a different point of view, having  true empathy with "the other side" is what allows us to see we're both trying to get on the same side. Sometimes we lose our way.  MIL is not my adversary, but she is someone I don't understand because she's not me, or very much like me.  If I don't understand her point of view, even for a moment, there will be no hope at all for us.  Taking a step to the right or left changes our point of view, while we still stand tall with our own two feet. 

Sometimes defenses protect us. Sometimes defensiveness can limit and isolate us.  We gotta learn when it's worth the risk of being a little more fluid.

This was a brave thread to post.  Relationships are ever changing, evolutionary.  What better to build our wise minds, than encompassing other points of view. You're sharing what you're experiencing, how its benefitting you, and I'm impressed and frankly I feel privileged to read about your process.  You've made me richer.  Thank you, Creme.

Hi Sassy, thanks for understanding...I don't remember writing this part, but when I read it again, well, it didn't come out right, came out rather insulting I think?  I didn't mean it that way...however, it sounded pretty rough to me....you worded it they way I wish I could have written it...I used to be a pretty good writer, don't know what has happened...can't even write poetry any more...oh well, there are more important things.  I just don't want to hurt anyone here...I know all our situations are different...I just wish all of us, could somehow find a way, yanno?  Its heartbreaking to see so many people going thru this...life sure can give you a wallop sometimes...I know every person here would only like peace in they're lives...I wish it for them so much...life is to short.

My DIL is much different then me...I loved her so much when we first met, and we got along so well...I'm scared now...I don't want to hurt her...we discussed many issues...together, and I couldn't believe how I took her actions so wrong...I know it must have been very hard for her when they first married, coming into 2 new families and all...I think time has matured us both, and we both wanted to resolve things, however, I plan to walk slow with this....all I want is for us to get along....I have peculair ways myself...and I'm sure she feels like you do...but I'm goin gto really try to let her see, that I do care...


Sassy, I do hope things work out for you and MIL...and thanks so much for coming into post...I always enjoy reading you...