One counselor's observation as to what happens to Mothers of sons when they wed

[Nana]

Yes.  Miss Priss explanation was great!  I did learn a lot.
Thanks Miss Priss

[Sunny1]

Darn it, I knew that there was something that I left out.....please bear with me, I'm typing on my "not-so-smart phone" lol, it makes it really difficult to review things.

I'm only saying this is my personal experience in regards to the triangulation and truly....my MIL is an extremely bad MIL, so please ladies, don't take what I say about her personally, I know all of you aren't like her....I'm only here to learn and pass on my experiences too. Anyway,back to what I was saying about triangulation, I agree that the DIL's FOO needs to be on the outside circle just as the DH's should be.  In my case, which again,  was extreme. My MIL and SIL treated me as if I should be on the outside while they continued their original triangle that included only their FOO. My DH didn't help matters either and never fully understood what cutting the apron strings meant and keeping healthy boundaries meant, or in other words,  moving them to the outer circle just as my FOO is....my DH is just now learning that that is healthy, but unfortunately his mother has still never learned it. 

[Nana]

Sunny:

I know that there are terrible mils too.  If you analyze things back then, we heard of evil mils never dils. And it was true.  In my times dils would never dare treat his in-laws unrespectfully because they would have real problems with husband.  It was after the women liberation lol...that things started to change.  Dil's woke up....and you know what......those bad mils are those to blame that the good mils never had a chance.   Many dils reject in-laws before even getting to know them...just in case.  Many times Sunny, it isn't that maybe we did  something that hurt our dil without we knowing......no.... we know we didnt....because we never had the chance to prove one thing or another. 

It is never late to learn.  Good that your husband now see things differently.  Try to work on those things that may have affected your relationship with him due to mil and sil.  Good you moved on.

Love

[cremebrulee]

Pam1
You made perfect sense...and if parents would not take things so personally and understand, that it's where the kids are most comfortable, and not about anything the parents did....

Personally, I'd rather stay in a motel then anyone's home, including girlfriends, family, etc.  Why?  Because I'm more comfortable, can get a good nights sleep and because I don't have to worry about spending to much time in the bathroom...inconveniencing someone else....or making others wait....and most people now adays have two bathrooms, but that isn't the point, I need privacy...to wake up slowly with a few cups of coffee, not have to feel like I must converse with anyone, but go about my normal routine....then take my shower and I'm good to go, awake, refreshed and slept well...

You explained it perfectly Pam....if people would think first, before taking offense to the fact that others just have different feelings about how they want to do things, we'd all be a lot better off, including myself....

What you have here and again, if only we'd understand....and allow people they're much needed space and privet time, it is not meant to hurt or insult anyone....

I know my girlfriend tells me when they go to visit they're children in other states, they prefer to stay in a hotel...the children really get offended, but she says, that's tough, I need my privacy and they are just going to have to understand...the difference is, the kids understand that, they just wanted to be close to mom...her DIL's adore her....and she's been very sick of late, so they want to be around her even more...when  she was sick, they asked people not to call or come around, b/c she needed her rest....and they understood....why is it we take offense so quickly and feel like people are telling us, we're wrong for feeling the way we do, instead of understanding the personal needs of others....?

Thank you Pam

[cremebrulee]

Please keep in mind that I'm not saying this is the case.. I too am a woman with many Sons.. but many times I read DILs saying how her husbands family is alot more out spoken and pushy.. What I'm wondering myself is do we as Mom's of all Son's somehow over the years become more aggressive?
I guess really this is a fleeting thought more than anything. LOL But I can see in myself that I'm not really very dainty as I might of been raising all girls. I've had to adapt to football, baseball, parties, boy and guy things for years. Like I said, just something I find myself thinking about. I know in my case I have always made a point of being a " GIRL" even if surrounded by guys. I taught them how you should treat and act towards a lady. And just because I was their Mother didn't mean it was okay to fart at the table. LOL See what I mean? I just wonder if some woman kinda lose them selves and adapt more pushy ways while raising their sons?  Opinions?

I think you were taught well and you in turn, taught your sons well, trained my son the same way...however, there are some different levels of crude people out there, and not everyone respects that we are ladies....I've heard some very embarrassing things come from men in front of women, and visa versa...

My thoughts on the subject are this, maybe the son's family is more outspoken, b/c they are used to being around son's?  Or because they are very comfortable as a family unit, and again, they don't realize, you or others woho marry into the family unit, were raised different and get embarrassed easily....?  It's a clash of cultures I think is all it is...however, I have a brother in law who is really crude...and we sure enough let him know....that is not fit for family or table conversation....he's now curtailed it, b/c we all stuck together...it's a shame he thinks he's being funny...but he's come a long way since he first came into the family.

I don't know, just my thoughts?  But we become so very comfortable with the way we are, we tend to forget that someone else may not like how we do things, and that's ok, but if they become insulted by our actions, that is when the trouble starts...and it may be the smallest thing that sets it off...

It's all about being aware, that not everyone thinks and feels as we might....awareness is an intellectual consideration for others...and believe me, I'm no saint, either...sometimes I forget, and catch myself, forgetting, I'm within a group of people, and it's better sometimes to be quiet and listen...then to try to be the center of attention....or to be funny out of nervousness....or feeling uncomfortable.  I think most of us can feel if someone else is becoming uncomfortable...the one thing that should never be discussed within a group, including inlaws, is politics, religion and how to raise children...there are always going to be people who disagree, but take huge offense...

[cremebrulee]

Sorry for not replying sooner to my earlier mess....lol...had plans all afternoon and evening.

Creme, I'm always happy to answer to your inquisitions, I wish you could see my face as I'm writing, honestly, I should've added a *sarcastic chuckle * after my "Ugh", from earlier. To add a little more info, (only because I want to add it) I will say that I didn't have a really close relationship with my dad growing up. He worked long hours at a blue collar job, and my family has never been the huggy affectionate type, though I always knew my parents loved me without being "daddy's little princess ." ......I'll be glad to answer if you've got any other questions.   

Anyway, in reference to the triangulation statement that I had made. I only meant that I clearly understood the initial poster's view and I really liked how Miss Priss's explanation and illustrations presented it. (I wish my explanations were as clear as hers are.) And in that, I'm not at all insinuating that all MIL's are like that, it's just my personal experience with my MIL.

Ohhhhh thank you, I do appreciate your ability to understand me, and Miss Priss as well...yes, her and several others in here have unique way of writing, they do a good job...

Sunny I understand your feelings...and why you feel the way you do...I'm not the kissy face huggy bear type person either for personal reasons...but that doesn't mean I don't love or like people....
so, I do get where your coming from and so appreciate your guidence with this...

[RedRose]

This was written by a DIL who had learned in therapy what was wrong with her MIL. Very hard to read and below the belt, I think. ______________________________________________________________________________
The sons don't take the responsibility for a close relationship with their mothers because they don't WANT them.

The men DON'T keep up their end of the relationship, because they don't want the relationship their mothers long for. They love her and they want a relationship, but not that kind of relationship. And everyone gets confused by what's really going on because it feels to everyone like a love triangle, without the sexual attraction. You have the jealous spurned woman, the new love interest and the guy in the middle--but no one calls it what it is because it's not sexual. And yet the emotions are exactly the same.

Unless you've been a victim of these desperate MILs, you would pity them. They are generally unloved, left behind women. They don't have healthy partnerships as a general rule. They generally don't have a good support system. They are looking for that that absolute love, trust, and acceptance that everyone wants, they are just looking for it in the wrong place, and they want it on their terms, from the all powerful mother who holds all the cards and the ultimate authority in the relationship (as they had when their sons were little) from a man who can take care of himself and her as well. They generally cannot deal with real relationships with imperfect men and give and take. They have the development of a toddler and a toddler's understanding: black and white, idealized and full of fantasy.

And it's a continuum: some of these clingy, needy MILs are only troubled a little by these misplaced affections, and some are completely immersed and some regress to this when they are stressed or feeling vulnerable.

MIL-Son-DIL triangle

To me this whole concept is ridiculous. I would think if a MIL  felt that way about her son or if a DIL felt that her husband feels that way about his Mother...well... long term Mental help would be needed with a qualified doctor - not a counselor.

If I explain to my son why I feel his wife and I are not getting along...it's because I want him to love me more than his wife???...I want her out of the triangle??? This may be what a dil may think about her mil...to me this is a sick way of thinking. This does not make sense to me.

IMHO...I think there a many explanations for why MIL's and DIL's may not get along...but MIL-Son-DIL love triangle is hard to believe.

[pam1]

Annie, I think you make a good point too.  Although on both sides of our FOO we have about equal amount of brothers and sisters. (we both have larger families)  And I've noticed on both sides that the male siblings are treated differently.  Things my FOO wouldn't dream of asking DH, I've seen them asking my brothers girlfriends/wives.  I also have noticed that sisters tend to be territorial over brothers.  I have also seen my sisters get super involved (or try to anyway) in my brothers dating lives, they talk about it frequently with my stepmom.  But I can imagine the fireworks should my brothers behave that way towards them.

I just remembered a boyfriend I dated 10 years ago -- we were having dinner with his folks and just chatting about his sisters kids.  Out of nowhere boyfriends mum asked me if I could have children.  I was stunned and everyone else just looked on at me waiting for me to answer.  Later, I asked boyfriend if thats the type of stuff they talk about in normal conversation, does his sisters give updates to their reproductive systems etc....and he just looked at me and said no, he's never had a conversation with them about it. 

I think, like in one of the articles I posted that women generally have better relationships with their parents and have an easier time reassuring them that they still love them when going through transitions.  I know my DH doesn't have the best relationship with his mother or sisters, but if you heard them tell it, they are super close.  It's kind of odd.  DH talks to his sisters maybe a handful of times out of the year and only about going in on a gift together or what they are getting their parents for their bday/any other holiday.....but sister will go on and on how close they are.  Every so often his sisters will call to TELL him to do something in regards to his FOO.   I have asked DH why he doesn't reach out more often to them and he will say he just doesn't really want to.  He's also told me about various oversteps his sisters have done over the years and well, it makes sense.  He doesn't want to b/c it's not comfortable for him.  But it's kind of hard to tell which came first, was it DH's lack of interest in the type of relationship they wanted or was it the various oversteps that made him naturally back off like anyone would?

To me, it's obvious *now* (despite whatever happened in the past to get DH's relationship the way it is with MIL/SIL) that MIL/SIL's rule the roost.  The male siblings are rarely asked their opinions on things that affect them too. So of course, the wives of the brothers opinions are even further on down the line. MIL seeks out SILs opinions and their wants and then that is what she decides on and then tries to make everyone else follow along.  There are certain traditions that MIL established in childhood with her children that many of the adult siblings don't like, I'd actually say none of them like it.  But I think SIL's feel compelled to go along and then they complain that none of their brothers or wives want to participate, they complain up a storm and how they are doing it for the brothers -- again, none of the brothers really care.  And how the wives never help out, yadda yadda yadda.  But the whole time they convienently forget their husbands aren't doing it either so why would they really think their brothers wives would want to?  lol.  And then MIL takes that as she doesn't understand why SIL's will do it but the Sons won't and she's hurt by it, not realizing they are not the same anymore.  I tried helping out with that tradition the first few years but now I'm tired of the drama surrounding it, I know it will be a ruckus this year when I opt out. 

I know I'm rambling but these are just my observations.  I know that my SIL's feel extremely comfortable in ordering DH and his brothers about, what they can talk to their own parents about, what they can do in regards to this that and the other.  To me, it seems like there is sort of an entitlement between MIL/SIL towards the male family members and it sort of extends to their wives when they marry.  I think it's a hard transition for them to realize they are not The Female anymore, if that makes any sense.

[cremebrulee]

Before my son met his wife, we were close, friends, and had a very good working relationship...as well as with his friends...some of his friends are still close....however, at that point in time, my son didn't have a wife, certainly wasn't mature enough, and didn't own to much responsibility....when you marry, you now become responsible for someone else's heart...but then, I was his confident, his friend, and we used to sit around after dinner and talk, talk, talk, sharing thoughts and ideas on everything, even advice....once he married, boy it changed abruptly....and I knew it would, but not to this extent...

was it a triangle, yes...we were both fighting over him....and it wasn't some dimented sick concept....and I believe a lot of people think of it as being a physical attraction, ewwwwww? 

He was a man in the middle of two women who were not getting along, and he oh so wanted us to....

The moment it went south, it hurt him deeply....he loved, loved, loved his wife, and all he was looking for was my approval, so when we didn't get along, he took it as I was rejecting her and was deeply hurt and angry...here I was, trying to explain to him what was going on...and actually now, I feel so sorry for them both...thank God we made it....although I've got to honestly tell you, knowing full well that they fought a lot because she and I were not getting along, breaks my heart in two....I never wanted to be the reason why they fought, and I believe that was the main reason why I cut them off for a while...we all needed time away from each other...it was tough, I think it was 2 or 3 years I didn't see my GD....but I think it was best for all of us...cuz it was getting bad...and I sure as God as my witness, didn't want to cause they're marriage any problems....

I think they are even more happy now...you can see them both glow....

[cremebrulee]

RedRose

To me this whole concept is ridiculous. I would think if a MIL  felt that way about her son or if a DIL felt that her husband feels that way about his Mother...well... long term Mental help would be needed with a qualified doctor - not a counselor.

If I explain to my son why I feel his wife and I are not getting along...it's because I want him to love me more than his wife???...I want her out of the triangle??? This may be what a dil may think about her mil...to me this is a sick way of thinking. This does not make sense to me.

IMHO...I think there a many explanations for why MIL's and DIL's may not get along...but MIL-Son-DIL love triangle is hard to believe.

it is only ridiculous if you think of it as a sexual connotation and couldn't be further from that concept....it's not about sex at all, but a lot of people think of a love triangle as sexual...and if that were the case, yes, then it is sick

actually, believe it or not, a lot of counselors explain it this way...two women, mentally fighting over one man....and that's what it is definately all about...

the mil against the dil, with the son in the middle of it all....

Tell you what, when the counselor first said this to me, it surely helped jolt me awake....

[Pen]

Interesting discussion. It seems to me that the DILs here think they're schooling the MILs, and I sometimes feel a bit patronized. I'd like to see some DILs suddenly "get it." Ladies, there are lessons to be learned all around. As an MIL here (since my current MIL passed away I'm no longer a DIL) I often feel as if the DILs here want the MILs to admit wrongdoing and show that they've gotten insight. On the other hand, the DILS rarely admit wrongdoing or indicate they've gotten a better understanding of what the MILs are going through. It's so easy to say we MILs are triangulating or have some other weird attachment disorder and dismiss us as being "less than." But we MILs know that DILs can mess up, too, and it can sometimes start with them.

If I'm just being overly sensitive, I'm sorry, but that's how I feel.

In my situation, there's no weirdness regarding DS and his FOO, no triangulation on our side, etc., just a DIL who comes from a close (enmeshed?) family and thinks we're an annoyance. We've served our purpose (we spawned, produced DS, & now we should go back upstream and die.) My DIL admits we've done nothing wrong, and to some DILs here that's a red flag - there must have been something. NO, she just doesn't want us to exist in DS's or her life. Full disclosure, she's putting up with us now because DS stood up for us, and for that we're grateful. She doesn't want a relationship with us and I totally understand that so I do not push it at all. IOW, we don't "do lunch." She directed how this thing would go and we have no choice but to follow along if we want to see DS.

[luise.volta]

I think of it (triangulation) as one person refusing to tell another person, directly, what is going on. So she tells a third person. Nothing gets resolved that way...and a lot of distortion can occur. Sending love...

[Sunny1]

Interesting discussion. It seems to me that the DILs here think they're schooling the MILs, and I sometimes feel a bit patronized. I'd like to see some DILs suddenly "get it." Ladies, there are lessons to be learned all around. As an MIL here (since my current MIL passed away I'm no longer a DIL) I often feel as if the DILs here want the MILs to admit wrongdoing and show that they've gotten insight. On the other hand, the DILS rarely admit wrongdoing or indicate they've gotten a better understanding of what the MILs are going through. It's so easy to say we MILs are triangulating or have some other weird attachment disorder and dismiss us as being "less than." But we MILs know that DILs can mess up, too, and it can sometimes start with them.

Pen, I really do hope I'm not one of the DIL's that you are speaking of here. I know I can only speak for myself when I say this, but I for one, really try restate over and over that not all MIL's are like my MIL. I am fully aware that she is an extreme, and she made it painfully clear to me that she did not want me to marry her son. It sounds as though your DIL is an extreme as well...I'm very sorry for that Pen.

We are all here for different reasons, and heck, I thought the schooling was going all around. I'm learning lots, and I've said that before as well, and even admitted and aired my derogatory facebook post eleswhere on this site...and wow did I ever get "schooled" about that one. 

In my situation, there's no weirdness regarding DS and his FOO, no triangulation on our side, etc., just a DIL who comes from a close (enmeshed?) family and thinks we're an annoyance. We've served our purpose (we spawned, produced DS, & now we should go back upstream and die.) My DIL admits we've done nothing wrong, and to some DILs here that's a red flag - there must have been something. NO, she just doesn't want us to exist in DS's or her life. Full disclosure, she's putting up with us now because DS stood up for us, and for that we're grateful. She doesn't want a relationship with us and I totally understand that so I do not push it at all. IOW, we don't "do lunch." She directed how this thing would go and we have no choice but to follow along if we want to see DS.

Like you said here, maybe because there is no weirdness and your DIL has admitted that you've done nothing wrong, that you may be a little  oversensitive to the fact that there are those of us that are experiencing genuine triangulation???...am I making sense?...I don't ever want to step on anyone's toes, and my intentions are always trying to think of others.

[Pen]

I totally understand that some of you are dealing with triangulation or whatever. My mom had to deal with my GM in that way, so I know the dynamic well. What I'm sensitive to is being disregarded or lectured to, and I sense that other MILs feel the same. We're confused and in pain, for no reason other than that someone decided to run the show and run us out. I am sensitive about DIL's FOO being first and foremost in everything, and the response that DIL feels more comfortable with them is obvious. But wouldn't the same hold true for DS? Why aren't his FOO equally important then? Why the double standard? If women's lib is the excuse for the new breed of confident(selfish?) DILs, then the old stand-by of "sons are supposed to cleave to wife, foresake FOO, etc." should be outdated. Fair's fair. If DS has to be traditional, DIL should have to be as well. If DIL is following "new rules" (sorry Bill Maher) then DS should be able to, too.

It's interesting that not one DIL here has ever admitted to feeling the way my DIL does - that she went into the marriage with the intent to get rid of the ILs ASAP. We must have a special breed of DILs here who really are concerned about their relationships with their ILs, and are not here just to vent. Thanks to Luise for her vision and maintenance of this special place.

Have any of the DILs here heard similar feelings regarding planning to cut off the ILs from the get-go from their friends or relatives? I'd be interested to know what goes through the mind of someone like that.

[barelythere]

I totally understand that some of you are dealing with triangulation or whatever. My mom had to deal with my GM in that way, so I know the dynamic well. What I'm sensitive to is being disregarded or lectured to, and I sense that other MILs feel the same. We're confused and in pain, for no reason other than that someone decided to run the show and run us out. I am sensitive about DIL's FOO being first and foremost in everything, and the response that DIL feels more comfortable with them is obvious. But wouldn't the same hold true for DS? Why aren't his FOO equally important then? Why the double standard? If women's lib is the excuse for the new breed of confident(selfish?) DILs, then the old stand-by of "sons are supposed to cleave to wife, foresake FOO, etc." should be outdated. Fair's fair. If DS has to be traditional, DIL should have to be as well. If DIL is following "new rules" (sorry Bill Maher) then DS should be able to, too.

It's interesting that not one DIL here has ever admitted to feeling the way my DIL does - that she went into the marriage with the intent to get rid of the ILs ASAP. We must have a special breed of DILs here who really are concerned about their relationships with their ILs, and are not here just to vent. Thanks to Luise for her vision and maintenance of this special place.

Have any of the DILs here heard similar feelings regarding planning to cut off the ILs from the get-go from their friends or relatives? I'd be interested to know what goes through the mind of someone like that.

Pen,
Regarding what you were talking about: I think I remember you saying your DIL didn't want to come when your friends were going to be there for Christmas?  I think?  So you dis-invited the friends.  That's what our situation became too.  All my wonderful Aunts and our friends, OUT!   I asked one of the DILs if she ever would come to Christmas with even my brother and she said no.  None of the big family gatherings can take place anymore without her stamp of approval and she never gives it.  How much she's missing with these fun, funny, great people.  It has to be the way she wants it to be and that's it.

I wish the sons would step up and have a voice in this but they either don't or they are shouted down.  Both my DILs will either use the silent treatment or will get crazy mad if they are crossed. I wish we hadn't raised them to be such nice guys.  I really do. I really don't mean that. 

I'm glad things have changed for me.  I play by the rules so I get to be inside the line drawn in the sand.  Oh goody.  I have disengaged, expect nothing and am surprised and delighted with the slightest things now.  I don't love any of them like I did.  I think that's the saddest thing!!