Rigid people

[pam1]

barelythere,
I know you weren't thinking when you asked your GC to go for ice cream, it was a perfectly normal suggestion...which we have all done....however, your not dealing with a normal DIL...therefore, you've got to know, your not wrong....you didn't do anything wrong....but from now on, if you can, try and coddle her a bit....ask for her, talk to her a little, and then say something like, "listen, FIL and I are going to be at such and such a place, and I thought it would be nice if we all got together....I was wondering if you could come over for an hour or so, and we could all go for ice cream...or if you have longer, that would be nice to, but if you don't, we'll understand....?"  I bet she'd be so shocked, her socks would blow off her feet....then do it again, until it becomes part of who you are, always keep in mind, talk to DIL....
I do know a lot of DIL's think we're asking our sons, b/c we are trying to manipulate a visit out of him...and some of them are hurt by that...as I said, they're young, and very immature....but hopefully they will grow....with time....

barelythere, pooh, come errr....group hug....

hugs
Creme

See, I don't think I'm not right and I would find great offense to the idea that I'm being coddled when it's (in my opinion) only right that you ask the parents before asking the kid something.

I have a child from a previous relationship and this is something her father does, quite frequently. (and MIL does it too to an extent, not as bad as my Ex though) And I'm the one who deals with the fall out when it doesn't work quite his way.

He does it from minor things like ice cream to big things like Disney World.  He'll get on the phone with DD and say he made plans to go to Disney and he's going to take her and her siblings from his current marriage.  DD will get off the phone and tell me.  Um, ok?  I call Ex back and he says yeah, he's booked the rooms this week in July, can I get DD down there?  I can't take off work then.  Can ex come get her?  No, no he can't.  Then we have DD left in the dust *knowing* she can't go to Disney while her father and siblings go.  I think it's a pretty nasty move if you ask me.

If you look at it objectively, why would you ask the child?  The child can't drive themself where they need to be, they can't commit to a certain date and/or time and they can't just say yeah, ok pick me up at 6, grandma.  The child doesn't have that sort of power b/c they are the child.  And, if the child can't go, you've basically set them up to be disappointed and the parent is the one going home with a disappointed child over a situation the parent couldn't control in the first place.

I do think it's a sign of respect to go to the parent, even over minor things, that's what the parent is for.  It seems like if the answer is anything but yes, the grandparent is putting the parent and grandchild in a negative situation b/c the grandparent can't or won't ask the parent, first.  It seems like a heavy price for the parent and grandchild to pay for a simple modification the grandparent can make to smooth waters.

[cremebrulee]

Oh wow, this is something I can soooo relate to -- but from the other side lol.  You know, I've never been called rigid in my life, until dealing with MIL.  Work performance reviews, my parents and my extended family, teachers growing have always complimented me on easy goingness and an ability to think on my feet.  I was so shocked to discover my MIL considered me to be rigid lol.

The thing is, *everyone* has ways of organizing their life and for the most part, in laws aren't really privy to the intimate details.  I would never think to go explain to MIL, in explicit detail much less, why I chose to organize my life in a certain way.  It seems to be counterfeit to the reality that I am an adult after all.  My family operated a different way growing up,  kids weren't asked or even made aware of plans.  It just wasn't done, my grandparents always checked with the parents first.  Even when we visited and my parents were there, they'd ask one of the parents first before offering anything to us kids.  It was a type of respect that was handed down to all the parents and it's something I believe works very well in families. 

DH and I do run into this same issue with MIL, quite a bit.  And to be honest, I think DH plays a major role in it as well.  I'm a fairly organized person, I know my schedule and I keep better track of DH's.  This is another reason why the both of us fit together well, something I have a strength in, he has a weakness.  And really, I think in general this is true of men and women, of course there are exceptions    So when MIL does ask DH, often times the *both* of them are working off totally inaccurate information. 

DH doesn't consult his calendar and if he says yes when we are all booked, he has to go back and say no.  I find upsetting plans needs to be done only when there is a really good reason, MIL wanting to go get ice cream won't be good enough.  I have days and times booked for really good reasons.  However, it isn't a slight, it isn't a negative, it's simply the consequence of not consulting his calendar.  At least that's how I look at it.  MIL, on the other hand, has displayed time and time again that she doesn't understand why she's being told no.  From my point of view, she isn't really asking.  She's not expecting a no at any point so anything but a yes throws her off and there must be a secret underlying negative reason why she was told no.  And yes, there is the constant attempts to find out, circle around, demand answers.  In all honesty, this dynamic is exhausting.  I wish DH and MIL would figure out a way to let things be, some things just happen in life and you can't always get what you want.  I'm tired of being both their excuses and being the one deemed "rigid" because I have my own life and schedule.

IOW, I do feel like MIL is "rigid" in her way of being that she won't recognize that others can and will do something a different way and it's not a slam against her.  I feel that she is ultra sensitive and these are the types of issues that make relationships hard.  I don't feel the need to describe in detail to her why I'm busy, why DH had to say no, why he said yes in the first place.  It all is what it is and frankly, it's just life.  It happens in my family too but the difference is we all know it happens and no one is looking for a reason to be offended.  It just is.

A great way of explaining it....very well done Pam1....and no your shouldn't have to explain, and unfortunately there are some MIL's who are so sensitive and take no as a personal attack/rejection, and it must be all DIL's fault....but it's not and most of the time it is perfectly normal....and I'd be willing to bet, when she says no to someone, she feels like she has to explain all about why she said no....right? 

however, you do understand, that there are some DIL's out there who are not like you, but very very difficult to get along with....every situation is different.

Since you know MIL is like this Pam...why don't you once in a while try, to explain to her....she must have been insecure all her life and needs reassurance....why don't you try telling her, what you just wrote here....talk to her, and hopefully she will listen....but if she doesn't keep reassuring her...and maybe someday she will?

In the meantime, thanks for posting this...in the way that you did....I'm sure, it will help....

I really liked the way you worded it and enjoyed reading you....
thank you
Creme

[pam1]

Oh wow, this is something I can soooo relate to -- but from the other side lol.  You know, I've never been called rigid in my life, until dealing with MIL.  Work performance reviews, my parents and my extended family, teachers growing have always complimented me on easy goingness and an ability to think on my feet.  I was so shocked to discover my MIL considered me to be rigid lol.

The thing is, *everyone* has ways of organizing their life and for the most part, in laws aren't really privy to the intimate details.  I would never think to go explain to MIL, in explicit detail much less, why I chose to organize my life in a certain way.  It seems to be counterfeit to the reality that I am an adult after all.  My family operated a different way growing up,  kids weren't asked or even made aware of plans.  It just wasn't done, my grandparents always checked with the parents first.  Even when we visited and my parents were there, they'd ask one of the parents first before offering anything to us kids.  It was a type of respect that was handed down to all the parents and it's something I believe works very well in families. 

DH and I do run into this same issue with MIL, quite a bit.  And to be honest, I think DH plays a major role in it as well.  I'm a fairly organized person, I know my schedule and I keep better track of DH's.  This is another reason why the both of us fit together well, something I have a strength in, he has a weakness.  And really, I think in general this is true of men and women, of course there are exceptions    So when MIL does ask DH, often times the *both* of them are working off totally inaccurate information. 

DH doesn't consult his calendar and if he says yes when we are all booked, he has to go back and say no.  I find upsetting plans needs to be done only when there is a really good reason, MIL wanting to go get ice cream won't be good enough.  I have days and times booked for really good reasons.  However, it isn't a slight, it isn't a negative, it's simply the consequence of not consulting his calendar.  At least that's how I look at it.  MIL, on the other hand, has displayed time and time again that she doesn't understand why she's being told no.  From my point of view, she isn't really asking.  She's not expecting a no at any point so anything but a yes throws her off and there must be a secret underlying negative reason why she was told no.  And yes, there is the constant attempts to find out, circle around, demand answers.  In all honesty, this dynamic is exhausting.  I wish DH and MIL would figure out a way to let things be, some things just happen in life and you can't always get what you want.  I'm tired of being both their excuses and being the one deemed "rigid" because I have my own life and schedule.

IOW, I do feel like MIL is "rigid" in her way of being that she won't recognize that others can and will do something a different way and it's not a slam against her.  I feel that she is ultra sensitive and these are the types of issues that make relationships hard.  I don't feel the need to describe in detail to her why I'm busy, why DH had to say no, why he said yes in the first place.  It all is what it is and frankly, it's just life.  It happens in my family too but the difference is we all know it happens and no one is looking for a reason to be offended.  It just is.

A great way of explaining it....very well done Pam1....and no your shouldn't have to explain, and unfortunately there are some MIL's who are so sensitive and take no as a personal attack/rejection, and it must be all DIL's fault....but it's not and most of the time it is perfectly normal....and I'd be willing to bet, when she says no to someone, she feels like she has to explain all about why she said no....right? 

however, you do understand, that there are some DIL's out there who are not like you, but very very difficult to get along with....every situation is different.

Since you know MIL is like this Pam...why don't you once in a while try, to explain to her....she must have been insecure all her life and needs reassurance....why don't you try telling her, what you just wrote here....talk to her, and hopefully she will listen....but if she doesn't keep reassuring her...and maybe someday she will?

In the meantime, thanks for posting this...in the way that you did....I'm sure, it will help....

I really liked the way you worded it and enjoyed reading you....
thank you
Creme

Thanks, Creme!  Oh I know there are DIL's out there that are toxic and hard to deal with, I probably work with some   lol.  However, I do think this is a very valid issue in painful or otherwise toxic relationships.  I think people have a valid reason why they don't like their kids being asked about plans and it's something worth paying attention to if you do find it to be a problem.  A lot of the time I think problem relationships stem from this sort of attitude, when both parties aren't willing to take a look at the other side.  And in this particular situation, I do think the DIL's side is pretty compelling.  Not that her whole case is compelling lol but this issue in particular.  And I do think if you "give" you are more likely to "get."  So if the goal is to get more time with the grandkids and you know the DIL will say no if you directly ask the grandkids, the win situation would be to stop asking the grandkid.

I have tried talking to MIL, numerous occasions.  I don't turn into a big deal "we must get this settled right now conversations" though.  When DH and I first started running into this problem I always just said casually to MIL, "hey, you know DH doesn't always know what's going on, sometimes it's better if you just ask me first, and if you do ask DH and he says yes, then no...it's because he doesn't look at the calendar and it's something we really can't cancel."

She doesn't accept it and she just kinda shrugs off what I say, she doesn't say anything in return, she just changes the subject.  For the most part, MIL will refuse to talk to me about anything that bothers her, however she will act out and that's where all our issues come into play.

And well, I think my MIL goes a little farther down the road.  She just doesn't like "no" at all.  It doesn't matter if DH does happen to remember our schedule and knows we are booked and tells her "no" right away.  She really, truly doesn't like it and behaves as if I (not we, DH isn't the target of this particular issue) did it just to upset her.  And then she attempts to undermine, she calls DH constantly about this plan, wants to know why in explicit detail, cries etc. 

One time in particular stands out in my mind.  MIL wanted family portraits, she arranged and booked a day with a photographer and consulted us after she made all the plans.  And she wanted a big family bbq after the shoot.  Apparently, she spoke to her daughters and made sure they were ok with the date and time, but not us.  Anyway, we already had plans for the day with out of town friends that were coming to visit.  I felt it was inappropriate to cancel plans that we had for 6 months with our visitors but DH didn't want to fight MIL anymore.  So the deal was, we'd go to the shoot for 2 hours max and then we had to go, no time for the bbq.  DH told MIL upfront, he was clear as could be....and at this point, you'd think any person would be happy that a grown couple would have compromised this much.  MIL argued that our friends could come (they absolutely didn't want to spend one of their precious days visiting doing this lol,) how dare we do this to her after all the money she spent, DH's sisters went along with her, why couldn't we?  Why can't Pam1 just go with the flow?

Etc, it was horrible.  Anyway, the day comes we go to the shoot and we've got it ALL settled we are leaving in 2 hours.  (and you know, I have to wonder when MIL does this, what person in their right mind would want to be around her after all these strong arm tactics, MIL and her daughters are happy at the expense of their son and his wife....doesn't seem quite right here)  Well, next thing you know MIL is whispering to my DD that she has some gifts for her that are very special and doesn't DD want to go open them in MIL's house? 

The woman didn't stop and wouldn't look at this from any others point of view.  Going to talk to my child and making plans with her to get us at her dang bbq.  Mind blowing.

[cremebrulee]

Pam1
She sounds like Jamie Lee Curtis in the movie Monster in Law....seriously....

this kind of behavior really really upsets me, next time I wouldn't compromise at all, and if she says something like she said before, how dare you after all the money I speant, and I would come right back at her if I were her son and say, "Mom, how dare you tell everyone else about it except us and just spring it on us after we made plans with our friends...." and not go....reverse the situation and if she really wants you there, she will eventually maybe get it?  Tell your husband, he can't knuckle under....tough love, yanno...

You sound like a very understanding person....you certainly have every reason to fight her and yet, not once have you sounded vindictive or unfair....she is only hurting herself....yeah, can you imagine living with someone like that....ewwwww, her poor husband....

That is the first thing I always think of....can you just imagine living day in and day out with someone like that....she has probably stripped her husband of his entire identity...it's her way....without any regard for him or what he wants to do...sheesh? 

[barelythere]

Ok, I have to hold up for barely on this one.  I would never ask my GD first when it came to something big, like an overnight visity, a trip or an all day thing.  Because that should be discussed with the Mother and Father first to make sure they were Ok with it.  But ice cream?  And asking if you can take all of them - Mom and Dad too, sometime while you are there?  That should not be an issue.  If the DIL has a problem with that...then the DIL is just being childish and has no legitimate complaint.

My Mother would look at my boys all the time and say, well Memaw will just have to come snatch you and take you to Chuckie Cheese one day.  Or, hey...sometime next couple of weeks boys, I will come get you and take you to see that new movie.   I never felt like my Mother was being rude and not asking me first.  I knew when it came time, she would call me and say, "Hey, what day would be good?"  If a Grandparent can't generalize with their GC, then that is a problem with the DIL/DH or both.

And I'm sorry, but any DIL/SIL/DD/DH has an issue with a grandparent wanting to spend time with their grandchildren (when the grandparent is being reasonable) has major selfish issues.

whoa, this isn't about taking sides with Barelythere against her DIL....I agree, totally with you and she....her DIL is a real problem...what I'm doing is making suggestions to her of how she might win....

I agree, totally with both of you...but nothing will change, unless barelythere makes changes....

yes, her DIL is a really messed up...however, barelythere knows this....so you have two choices....
1.  Do you keep on fighting her and making things worse or
2.  You realize she has real problems, so, you ask her, her permission first....which is a very good way to gain her trust....maybe, maybe not, maybe it won't work, but it's got to be worth a try, right? 

I would try it....a whole lot of positive may come from it, and she's surely got nothing to loose.
someone's got to take initiative, and it isn't going to be her dysfunctional DIL....

Great Big Double Bed Sheeets! I  know she has problems. God speaks directly to her Mother, for Heaven Sake. This is not true, though. . Everyone knows He speaks to me. (sniff)

[pam1]

You know, Creme, that's the thing.  MIL will not talk to me, often times I hear about it from DH after the fact.  I think I'm doing a good thing by compromising and I'll find out later that I was being slammed.  And DH didn't (and still by the time he told me) recognize it for what it was.

I feel like DH and I are put between a rock and a hard place with this particular issue.  He gets to "hear" it all and bears the brunt of MIL's emotions.  And I get the blame.  It truly turned into a marital issue after a while and I figured out what was going on.  It took me a long time to get to the bottom of it.  In my family, if someone invites and the other says no, we've got plans....that's all there is to it.  It would never occur to me that it would be an issue.

[cremebrulee]

You know, Creme, that's the thing.  MIL will not talk to me, often times I hear about it from DH after the fact.  I think I'm doing a good thing by compromising and I'll find out later that I was being slammed.  And DH didn't (and still by the time he told me) recognize it for what it was.

I feel like DH and I are put between a rock and a hard place with this particular issue.  He gets to "hear" it all and bears the brunt of MIL's emotions.  And I get the blame.  It truly turned into a marital issue after a while and I figured out what was going on.  It took me a long time to get to the bottom of it.  In my family, if someone invites and the other says no, we've got plans....that's all there is to it.  It would never occur to me that it would be an issue.

darlin, your not getting the blame, hubby knows what is going on....he is just trying so hard to make both of you happy....he needs to take the blinders off...oft times, it is difficult for any child to view the mistakes of they're parents....however, you and he need to sit down and communicate your feelings to each other about this...he married you, you are his first priority....and he needs to dot his i's and cross his t's when it comes to his mother.  It's all about a lack of communication, and if you two must go to counciling....then so be it, he must understand, you have feelings to....and it is so important that he connect the dots when it comes to planning things with her.

also, consider, to, that he feels so caught in the middle, if he tries to talk to you about her, do you listen, or do you take it as if he is telling you, you are wrong?  He is not saying your wrong...he's trying to explain to you his side, and his perspectives and feelings...but he is not saying, your wrong for yours....does that make sense? 

That is where my son was at with my DIL and me....if he tried making sense to either one of us about the other, both she and I took it as if he was siding with the other....he wasn't....he was trying to tell us both that we were wrong in the way we felt....not that we were wrong for our feelings...I mean, I was so bent out of shape, I actually thought my DIL was abusive, and narcissistic....it was horrible....b/c one little thing led to another....

for instance, once, when I was there, she made an entire breakfast....now she knows I can't usually eat breakfast, son told her that...mid day to lunch time I can....but not first thing in the morning...I get sick....but she wanted to make something nice for me....so she went to all that trouble...I wouldn't eat...and that hurt her terrible...she viewed it as me rejecting her, not liking her, and I viewed it as her knowing full well I don't eat breakfast, so she did that purposely to make me sick...
do you see how things get blown way beyond the galaxies?  I mean, we both were bound and determined that we hated each other and we didn't...we just wanted to be liked.....simple fact....and this went on for 12 long and haretbreaking years....and I wouldn't listen...my son tried to talk to both of us, endlessly....and he was just as upset as we were....

I don't know if my story sheds some new perspective on the why's of why your hubby feels the way he does...but just for the record...my girlfriend used to say...."you son is is hurting just as much as you are, believe me."  And so was my DIL, and so was I, but she and I both were just way to proud to admit we were wrong about each other...and everytime we got together, boom, no matter how kind we'd be to each other, that one negative thing that happened, was blown way out of poportion....it's all about perspectives, and how we see things....

so, hang in there, things will get better with time....you have a good head on your shoulders, and it will work out....maybe not with her, but there will come a day, when you'll not care so much anymore...and realize, she is the way she is, and nothing will change her...you don't have to be her doormat....there are way other things in life so much more important....then her....

[cremebrulee]

pam1

See, I don't think I'm not right and I would find great offense to the idea that I'm being coddled when it's (in my opinion) only right that you ask the parents before asking the kid something.

I agree, b/c you feel that way....and I know you feel that way, so your feelings as your mil, would be important to me, I would want to coddle you...to make you happy....to do what you expected....does that make sense....asking the kids if they want to go for ice cream with grandpa and grandma is a little thing....would take only about an hour, hour and a half....but asking the kids to come over night, without first talking to you, would be a huge thing....besides, when I got to the cabin, which was close to you, I'd give you a call and ask if you were busy, could we take the kids for ice cream for about an hour, and would you like to come along?

to big things like Disney World.  He'll get on the phone with DD and say he made plans to go to Disney and he's going to take her and her siblings from his current marriage.  DD will get off the phone and tell me.  Um, ok?  I call Ex back and he says yeah, he's booked the rooms this week in July, can I get DD down there?  I can't take off work then.  Can ex come get her?  No, no he can't.  Then we have DD left in the dust *knowing* she can't go to Disney while her father and siblings go.  I think it's a pretty nasty move if you ask me.

I think it's inexcusable and unacceptable, he's not hurting you, he is hurting her....how dare he?  Sheesh, I wish parents would grow up...I'm with my friend at work here who says, you should have to take a test before you become a parent...(we say that when we hear stories like this, or worse)  however, your husband, is a child....and so wrong....

I do think it's a sign of respect to go to the parent, even over minor things, that's what the parent is for.

 

I do to, however, going for ice cream isn't a biggy, and I don't think she told the kids when, and kids don't really have a concept of time....so, I believe it was more hypthetical...but can understand your feelings on it....your not wrong for feeling the way you do, and if it were my GD I would ask, b/c I want to do what is right by my DIL...however, I can also see the point of views of others here for not feeling it is so serious....I know my girlfriends grand kids get on the phone with her, and they ask her to come up and take them for this or that....right in front of they're mothers....they're mother's don't care...at this point, all they're glad for is the break from the kids...matter of fact, they are so much the opposite, adn your not going to believe this, but they thought it would be nice to dump all they're kids....(18) all together, at they're home for mother's day.  She and I laughed saying...."now wouldn't that be a great mother's day gift?"  Yeah right?

I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer here....it depends on the individuals involved...and maybe that is what we should all ask ourselves....
how well do we know our DIL's/Mil's?  We should try and find out what they think about these things, and maybe that is how we could address it....rather then fight it?  I dunno...
the answer is in your hearts...and who here wrote today, "the more you give, the more you get"?  It's so hard, b/c you are dealing with two totally opposite individuals here fighting over the same man....sounds silly but it's true....it's very true....like a love triangle...and it's sad....someone has to give, and in my case, I'd rather have peace then be right...to me, it wasn't even about winning...I just wanted peace....and when I started to listen, I got a whole lot more....I listened to her, and felt compassion, embarrassement....shame, guilt, and love....and now, I'm so glad I did...it was worth it....and I had nothing more to loose.

[Pen]

Perhaps if the ILs knew they were scheduled into the social calendar too, the way a lot of DIL's FOOs are, there would be less anxiety all around. It's hard to share, but we expect kindergartners to do it and I think as adults we can figure this out

As both a DIL & a MIL, I know from experience that both sides need to feel validated and loved. After that it takes consideration and compromise. But, if one or both parties is selfish, uncaring or unyielding, it won't work and the other party is bound to be hurt, confused, or  upset. For some of us our hurt becomes overwhelming and we're tired of always being the ones who give in.

Rigid people don't know how to "pick their battles." Sometimes it's best to give in on the little stuff so you can give more credence to the big issues. Sometimes it's great to be seen as the "yes" guy!

I'm assuming we DILs and MILs here are caring and desiring compromise, otherwise we're just here to vent or tangle which isn't productive.

[Pooh]

 I just find it amazing that a parent can always make time for their kids, but some kids can't find time for a parent every once in a while.  Boggles my mind.

[pam1]

pam1

See, I don't think I'm not right and I would find great offense to the idea that I'm being coddled when it's (in my opinion) only right that you ask the parents before asking the kid something.

I agree, b/c you feel that way....and I know you feel that way, so your feelings as your mil, would be important to me, I would want to coddle you...to make you happy....to do what you expected....does that make sense....asking the kids if they want to go for ice cream with grandpa and grandma is a little thing....would take only about an hour, hour and a half....but asking the kids to come over night, without first talking to you, would be a huge thing....besides, when I got to the cabin, which was close to you, I'd give you a call and ask if you were busy, could we take the kids for ice cream for about an hour, and would you like to come along?

to big things like Disney World.  He'll get on the phone with DD and say he made plans to go to Disney and he's going to take her and her siblings from his current marriage.  DD will get off the phone and tell me.  Um, ok?  I call Ex back and he says yeah, he's booked the rooms this week in July, can I get DD down there?  I can't take off work then.  Can ex come get her?  No, no he can't.  Then we have DD left in the dust *knowing* she can't go to Disney while her father and siblings go.  I think it's a pretty nasty move if you ask me.

I think it's inexcusable and unacceptable, he's not hurting you, he is hurting her....how dare he?  Sheesh, I wish parents would grow up...I'm with my friend at work here who says, you should have to take a test before you become a parent...(we say that when we hear stories like this, or worse)  however, your husband, is a child....and so wrong....

I do think it's a sign of respect to go to the parent, even over minor things, that's what the parent is for.

 

I do to, however, going for ice cream isn't a biggy, and I don't think she told the kids when, and kids don't really have a concept of time....so, I believe it was more hypthetical...but can understand your feelings on it....your not wrong for feeling the way you do, and if it were my GD I would ask, b/c I want to do what is right by my DIL...however, I can also see the point of views of others here for not feeling it is so serious....I know my girlfriends grand kids get on the phone with her, and they ask her to come up and take them for this or that....right in front of they're mothers....they're mother's don't care...at this point, all they're glad for is the break from the kids...matter of fact, they are so much the opposite, adn your not going to believe this, but they thought it would be nice to dump all they're kids....(18) all together, at they're home for mother's day.  She and I laughed saying...."now wouldn't that be a great mother's day gift?"  Yeah right?

I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer here....it depends on the individuals involved...and maybe that is what we should all ask ourselves....
how well do we know our DIL's/Mil's?  We should try and find out what they think about these things, and maybe that is how we could address it....rather then fight it?  I dunno...
the answer is in your hearts...and who here wrote today, "the more you give, the more you get"?  It's so hard, b/c you are dealing with two totally opposite individuals here fighting over the same man....sounds silly but it's true....it's very true....like a love triangle...and it's sad....someone has to give, and in my case, I'd rather have peace then be right...to me, it wasn't even about winning...I just wanted peace....and when I started to listen, I got a whole lot more....I listened to her, and felt compassion, embarrassement....shame, guilt, and love....and now, I'm so glad I did...it was worth it....and I had nothing more to loose.

lol, I can agree to disagree, I'll just say that upfront

I personally don't have a spare hour most days and most of my working friends with children don't either.  And, said with respect , this is the kind of attitude that is hard to reason with my MIL.  We really don't have a whole lot of time and it's like I said, exhausting, to get that across.  I'm not rigid or some kind of schedule nazi, we just have to get things done,  keep up with the household chores,  honor our work and other commitments, take care of our health and spend one on one time within the immediate family, we also have extended family on *both* sides that we want to keep up relationships, and our friends who we have sorely neglected for the most part, school commitments and after school sports and clubs, and frankly, MIL sees us more than anyone else. 

As a side note, we did have the counselor suggest we pencil in good chunks of free time in our calendar for every member of our household.

I think it's great if other people's kids and grandkids have that type of relationship and they are all happy with how it's working and at the end of the day that's the most important part, right?    But what happens when it just won't work? Is it better to complain that things aren't going your way (and we know your way is very, very, very subjective) or try to take a look at what you can do to change to acheive the ultimate goal?

Another view, the women in my family (stepmom, aunts, grandmothers) would ALL object heavily to that type of relationship.  That is not the culture of my family, as my stepmom will say, she "doesn't want to be a mother again, it's her free time now" when my brother tries to get her to babysit just a little too much for her liking.  If anyone approached stepmom with the expectation of that type of relationship with her -- well, it probably wouldn't work out so well for them.  She's not having it and you know, I kinda think it's her right to say "i am not interested in that type of relationship" and for the onus to the receiver to either change their expectations or let stepmom off the hook from their expectations.

I do get your point that things like the ice cream are minor things, they are.  But the logic is since they are so minor, then asking the child should be relatively easy to stop doing, right?

[Pooh]

Pam, that is what I love about this forum.  We all agree to disagree but yet love to hear each other's prospectives.  And I do hear you.  As a Mother, I worked full-time, ran two different aged boys to multiple sports for 15 years, coached various sports for 12 years, had volunteer work, charities, friends, classes, housework, cooking, laundry....the list goes on and on, just like you do.  But I made sure that both sets of grandparents had time with the kids.  Because that was important to me for both the grandparents and the kids.  There were times I had to tell my MIL and my Mom no because we were so busy.  But I always made sure for every few no's, I balanced that with a yes, so they knew that we felt they were important.  I used to run 5 different places on Christmas, just so everyone could have GC/DIL/DH time on that holiday.  I remember falling exhausted into bed that night and thinking, whew!

I guess that's why I have such a hard time now with thinking my DIL and DH can't give up a two hour dinner every couple of months so that we can maintain a relationship.  I worked so hard to maintain those relationships while they were growing up, exhausting as it was, because it was important for everyone.   I am learning, thru this forum, that those are my expections, and I have to let them go because my DIL is a different person, and doesn't hold those same beliefs, but it doesn't mean I have to like it! Lol.

You sound like a great Mom and not a DIL like some of us have, just like us MILs recognize there are some difficult MILs out there too that can be so intrusive.

[luise.volta]

Lopsided love...out of balance. It seems that "give and take" means "I give and you take." Of course it gets tiresome. It is unfair, unjust, unreasonable and unrelenting. Lotsa "uns." My heart goes out to everyone here that is in that position. I was there for along time and got kicked in the teeth for my efforts. And yet we persevere and we support each other and when we have to, we let go. Strong Women!

Sending love...

[Pooh]

Strong Women indeed, headed by one of the wisest and strongest around!  (Pssst, that's you Luise).

Funny you said that.  I had lunch with my DH and we got tickled at each other.  I told him that I had come to a realization that we had surrounded ourselves with selfish people.  That between my OD and his daughter, it was no wonder we were so tired all the time.  I told him that from here on out, we were only going to surround ourselves with "givers", no more "takers".

He just looks at me and starts laughing.  I asked him what was so funny and he said, "Great.  We will be standing outside of the Olive Garden for hours now going....No...after you....No....after you....No...after you.  I'll never get to eat."

God bless his loving heart!

[luise.volta]

Loved that man!!!