"Leave & Cleave" vs. Honor thy Mother(-in-law)

[miss_priss]

Forgive....erm, pardon me...I've not kept up with this thread today until now (work work work!).  I was asked not to use the word "forgive?"  Catchingup, can you please explain?  I think forgiveness is key, for all relationships, because all of us are bound to make mistakes from time to time.  Without forgiveness, there would be no relationships between anyone, so I don't understand.

And to answer your question Catchingup, about Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder - I found a great website that explains it a lot better than I ever could.  http://www.peaceandhealing.com/personality/passive.asp .  In short, it's intentional actions (or lack of action) that APPEARS to the general public as harmless "forgetfulness" or ignorance, but in fact is an act of malice targeted at one or more persons. 

Here's an example that might help explain it:  In the very early stages of dating my DH, I helped MIL with planning her family reunion (I'm an event planner in my spare time).  Throughout the entire planning process, SHE was handling the catering, she watned to handle it because her best friend is a caterer.  We discussed it by phone and in person on several occasions, that SHE had contacted the caterer, we were havingblah blah blah foods.  She was so excited every time we talked about it, even told me what a great deal she was getting on the food, and the service was free because it was her friend.  On the day of the reunion, guess what....NO CATERER.  NO FOOD.  ANGRY MIL.  She immediately went on a tirade, in front of 100+ of her family members, and accused ME of not contacting the caterer on purpose to ruin her day.  She cried.  She cursed.  She screamed "YOU were the planner, it was YOUR job!  I should have never trusted you to handle something this precious to me!"  She threw me out of the reception hall, I was humiliated.  And everyone in her family gave her sympathy.  SHE was the victim.  I had ruined her day.  But I didn't!  When I told DH about what she'd done and all of the conversations I'd had with her about the catering, he chalked it up to "she just forgot" and "she must have just misunderstood, she'd never do anything like that on purpose." 

This wasn't the only time she "created" dramatic scenes of passive aggressiveness herself in order to giver herself and others reasons to dislike me.  When DH and I talked about all of this with our first couples therapist, he suggested we read up on Passive Aggressive behavior and how to stop it in its tracks.  I quickly learned to NEVER have even a phone conversation without DH being present. Unfortunately, people with Passive Aggressive personality disorder rarely get help for it....because they can always make it look like its someone else who's doing it (it's not THEIR problem, it's someone else's), so you have to learn how to recognize it and basically call them out on it. 

By reading a lot of the posts, it appears that a lot of people, MILs and DILs alike suffer from this.     

[Alicev]

Passive-aggressive personality:

Ambiguity or speaking cryptically: a means of engendering a feeling of insecurity in others
Chronically being late and forgetting things: another way to exert control or to punish.
Fear of competition
Fear of dependency
Fear of intimacy as a means to act out anger: The passive aggressive often cannot trust. Because of this, they guard themselves against becoming intimately attached to someone.
Making chaotic situations
Making excuses for non-performance in work teams
Obstructionism
Procrastination
Sulking
Victimization response: instead of recognizing one's own weaknesses, tendency to blame others for own failures.

This list is taken from Wikipedia.

[barelythere]

Once again, Faith, well put.  This kind of person drives others crazy. The intentional obstructionism is particularly deadly.  Finding someone/anyone to blame for their mistakes is tiresome too.

[cremebrulee]

Forgive....erm, pardon me...I've not kept up with this thread today until now (work work work!).  I was asked not to use the word "forgive?"  Catchingup, can you please explain?  I think forgiveness is key, for all relationships, because all of us are bound to make mistakes from time to time.  Without forgiveness, there would be no relationships between anyone, so I don't understand.

And to answer your question Catchingup, about Passive Aggressive Personality Disorder - I found a great website that explains it a lot better than I ever could.  http://www.peaceandhealing.com/personality/passive.asp .  In short, it's intentional actions (or lack of action) that APPEARS to the general public as harmless "forgetfulness" or ignorance, but in fact is an act of malice targeted at one or more persons. 

Here's an example that might help explain it:  In the very early stages of dating my DH, I helped MIL with planning her family reunion (I'm an event planner in my spare time).  Throughout the entire planning process, SHE was handling the catering, she watned to handle it because her best friend is a caterer.  We discussed it by phone and in person on several occasions, that SHE had contacted the caterer, we were havingblah blah blah foods.  She was so excited every time we talked about it, even told me what a great deal she was getting on the food, and the service was free because it was her friend.  On the day of the reunion, guess what....NO CATERER.  NO FOOD.  ANGRY MIL.  She immediately went on a tirade, in front of 100+ of her family members, and accused ME of not contacting the caterer on purpose to ruin her day.  She cried.  She cursed.  She screamed "YOU were the planner, it was YOUR job!  I should have never trusted you to handle something this precious to me!"  She threw me out of the reception hall, I was humiliated.  And everyone in her family gave her sympathy.  SHE was the victim.  I had ruined her day.  But I didn't!  When I told DH about what she'd done and all of the conversations I'd had with her about the catering, he chalked it up to "she just forgot" and "she must have just misunderstood, she'd never do anything like that on purpose." 

This wasn't the only time she "created" dramatic scenes of passive aggressiveness herself in order to giver herself and others reasons to dislike me.  When DH and I talked about all of this with our first couples therapist, he suggested we read up on Passive Aggressive behavior and how to stop it in its tracks.  I quickly learned to NEVER have even a phone conversation without DH being present. Unfortunately, people with Passive Aggressive personality disorder rarely get help for it....because they can always make it look like its someone else who's doing it (it's not THEIR problem, it's someone else's), so you have to learn how to recognize it and basically call them out on it. 

By reading a lot of the posts, it appears that a lot of people, MILs and DILs alike suffer from this.     

Miss Priss
I'm curious and was thinking while reading this post of yours...has your husband inherited any of these issues due to be raised by this woman.  I don't see how he couldn't, however, I'm so so glad you went to counseling and he went along...wish your MIL would go...it would help her a lot with handling other relationships.

Yanno, Miss Priss, it's not you...it's not really personal...if you could look at it this way....from what I've read, it would have been anyone who married your husband...if you had not married him, the lady who did, would be experiencing the very same problems with her...can you think of it that way...would that help some?  I know the pain of rejection...as a lot of ladies here do, and it hurts terrible...it changes your life when a family member or close friend rejects you...however, it's not you...it's her....

hugs
Creme

[Postscript]

Yanno, Miss Priss, it's not you...it's not really personal...if you could look at it this way....from what I've read, it would have been anyone who married your husband...if you had not married him, the lady who did, would be experiencing the very same problems with her...can you think of it that way...would that help some? 

Creme my dh says pretty much what you said about Mil would have disliked any woman he married.  It's proven over the way she treats/ed my bils wives and gf's and sils fiance.  But it's cold comfort to be honest

[cremebrulee]

Yanno, Miss Priss, it's not you...it's not really personal...if you could look at it this way....from what I've read, it would have been anyone who married your husband...if you had not married him, the lady who did, would be experiencing the very same problems with her...can you think of it that way...would that help some? 

Creme my dh says pretty much what you said about Mil would have disliked any woman he married.  It's proven over the way she treats/ed my bils wives and gf's and sils fiance.  But it's cold comfort to be honest

It may very well be cold comfort...I've been there and I know your pain...however, if you could change your attitude to believe this and realize, "ok, this is the way she is...it's not me, it's her....and she is the one missing out", perhaps it would be an exercise you could try, everytime it enters your mind.

we can't control other people...but we do have a choice, we can control how "we" think and feel.  People used to ask me, when I was having problems with my son and DIL, how I endured it....and I said, I do exerciseds and talk to myself, talking myself out of being a victim, and into the secure person I was...it's not easy...and it takes much effort and perciverance, and it doesn't take the pain away...what it does is, reassured me, that it wasn't me...that I wasn't a bad person, that I was trying...trying so hard to understand her reasons for hating me....and I also realized, that not everyone can like me....and that's ok...I wouldn't allow the bad stuff to creep in, and I kept myself busy, busy, busy....reading, watching movies...getting involved with neighbors, family and friends, and some small travel...what I did was create things for myself to look forward to...and when youstart ignoring the situation...some how, and I don't know how, the other person causing you this grief, realizes she is not getting to you...she is not breaking you down....you are not allowing her to break you down.

I also stopped rewinding....you know, where you take a negative happening, and rewind it to death...trying to come up with answers....sometimes throughout our walk in life, there are just no answers...and people don't do things for one reason but many....so, it was futile for me to rewind.  I know the sleepless nights, the feeling in your heart and gut, like someone ripped it out...I know the loss of innocence and spontanious happiness, however, I kept telling myself, there has to be something in this for me to learn.  We tend to obsess over these things and it causes us much destruction...don't let it...live and be happy....don't allow this person to bring you down...it's her, not you...and no matter what, fight for who you are, not regret what is...be happy with you, look for the many things you do have which make you happy...and don't wallow in the negative...it's mind over matter and you can do it...you can.

See, these people are miserable...very negative people, and they want everyone else to be to....so, that is why they cause havoc in not only they're lives, but everyone elses, they think and really believe, that, that is life and happiness....

Also, there is something else that may help you understand her....you don't have to love her, or even like her, however, if you can understand why she does the things she does, it may help eliviate some of the pain and self persecution...and no matter how tough we are, to know that our MIL's/DIL's won't accept us, hurts beyond words...
anyway, sometimes, woman, unfortunately, base they're whole purpose in life around they're children....they do everything for them, putting aside they're own lives...which is ok, as long as it's done within reason, however, like everything else...they're are some mothers who base they're entire life, on they're children, and actually depend on them for they're own happiness....and in the process of doing for them, that gives them purpose....when that purpose is taken away....they really get confused...alll of a sudden, they're whole being has been turned upside down and they blame you for it....they can't understand the concept, that what is happening is perfectly normal...and the way of life...and let go, they don't look at this time in they're lives as something wonderful, that now they can do for themselves...they've done for they're kids for so long, that it's been conditioned into them....it's habit, purpose, and they're life...now, take that away and they feel like they are left with nothing...it still doesn't justify they're actions and treatmeant of you....but by understanding that, may lighten your load a bit...I dunno?

What I've written may not be comforting to you...however, it helped me.  We cannot base our happiness on other people...we have to find our own and stay there in that comfort zone. 

[miss_priss]

Actually Creme - I find your words very comforting.  I was doing exactly what you said for a long time, "rewinding it to death" trying to figure it out and find answers.  But in the end, I finally realized that it was her, not me.  Especially after DH told me how his mother treated everyone he ever dated equally as horrible.  In the end, it wouldn't have mattered if DH had married the Pope himself, it would never be good enough for her. 

Our pastor also helped us realize that there are "busy-body" people in this world, people whom the evil in their hearts drive them towards misery, and they want to take as many people with them as possible.  There's nothing we can do about these people except try to stay out of their paths of destruction.  When those people are your parents, that's a very hard thing to do...we've learned that much.  It's painful to realize that people very close to you are toxic to your life and other interpersonal relationships, and even more painful to shut them out of your life in order protect yourself and other loved ones.     

[catchingup]

I have seen it a number of times on here"Passive aggressive personality" Does that mean that someone passively manipulates another

Sometimes I feel like I wish my MIL was still around so that I could spit everything out to her.
Miss_priss please dont use the word forgive.

Oops!! did not mean to offend.
I had this all the time from Christians--just forgive. We must forgive but sometimes leaders in a church use that word far too often in counselling but dont get to the root of the problem.
Anyway it was sorted out eventually but sometimes I read things like passive aggressive personality and wonder if my MIL did not perhaps display this kind of personality.
Anyway whichever  personality it belongs to she was very manipulative and I was too young and naive to recognise these traits and wish I could have dealt with some of the things I did not deal with.--Hope that makes sense.
Nothing personal.

[miss_priss]

I totally agree catchingup - in the years I've spent in church (different ones), I too have heard the word "forgive" be thrown out so much, as if it's such an easy and commonplace thing to do! 

I try to remember the Lord's prayer "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."  It reminds me that God can and will forgive me, as much as I forgive others.  He'll show me the same compassion I show to others.  It's an extremely hard thing to do though!  I know that's another context alluding to Christianity (and I've been warned not to be religion-specific)...so I guess we can also equate it to the ideology of "karma" - what goes around will come around.  I believe it applies to forgiveness and compassion too. 

Where I think too many people get confused is the difference between "forgive" and it's silent partner "forget."  (I believe) God gave us free will and also the ability to reason...therefore, we were predispositioned to protect ourselves, and protect our young, etc.  The ability to reason and feel emotional pain is what distinguishes right from wrong, and also how we respond to it.  So I do believe you can forgive a person, but not forget in order to protect yourself.  If we were meant to forget every painful thing that happened to us...we'd keep putting our hands on that hot stove even after we'd been burned!  But we don't, we learn that it hurts, and we don't do it again (not on purpose anyway! )Our spirit works the same way, it learns what brings joy and also what hurts...or at least mine does!  I hope that makes sense?   

It's human nature to make mistakes, and also human nature to forgive those mistakes in order to maintain relationships.  But there comes that "line in the sand" where you just can't take it any more, your spirit has reached its healthy limit and goes into "protect" mode.  That point where someone else's insanity is leading to your OWN insanity, and I think it's somewhere around there were we stop "forgetting" in order to protect ourselves.  But we can still forgive that person, let go of the anger, and leave them to their own (or to God, if that's what you believe).  Again, I think it's probably the hardest when that person is a parent (or IL) or an adult child, or a sibling, or a spouse, because those are the people who are supposed to be the supporters in your life, those who are supposed to bring JOY, not pain. 

Anyway, that's just what I believe....it may not apply to all or even be helpful.     

[luise.volta]

I think there is a vast difference between forgiveness and trust. I can forgive when continued trust isn't warranted.

[miss_priss]

Very well stated Luise. 

[catchingup]

Actually Creme - I find your words very comforting.  I was doing exactly what you said for a long time, "rewinding it to death" trying to figure it out and find answers.  But in the end, I finally realized that it was her, not me.  Especially after DH told me how his mother treated everyone he ever dated equally as horrible.  In the end, it wouldn't have mattered if DH had married the Pope himself, it would never be good enough for her. 

Our pastor also helped us realize that there are "busy-body" people in this world, people whom the evil in their hearts drive them towards misery, and they want to take as many people with them as possible.  There's nothing we can do about these people except try to stay out of their paths of destruction.  When those people are your parents, that's a very hard thing to do...we've learned that much.  It's painful to realize that people very close to you are toxic to your life and other interpersonal relationships, and even more painful to shut them out of your life in order protect yourself and other loved ones.     

Cremebrulee gives such good advice.
In all the time my MIL did all those nasty,slimy,awful things I never tried to keep her son away from her and I did not cut her out of my life and the grandchildrens lives completely but she did not have a normal family relationship with her GC because I was not prepared to allow her to see them unless I was present.
The reason for this is because of her sergeant major attitude.
My husband was brought up to stand up and say good evening sir to his Father. I have nothing against a child standing up when an adult enters a room but their own Father?and sir at that.

I think cremebrulee mentioned the possibility of your husband having certain traits that his mother has. This is not always the case but my husband did have a number of traits especially "Controlling"
traits.

If I am upset about something I say my say and that is it but my husband would give me the cold treatment and not speak to me even if I asked what was wrong. There were other things too like emotional abuse done very slyly and when he was confronted with it he would say"I was only joking" Bull.


I have been married for 37 years and it was after about 18years that I asked him to get out of my life as I was not prepared to live with him anymore that he started changing.I was serious and he knew it.

He still does things jokingly. I think he likes to think that I am doing something because he told me too.
I had a lot of tidying up to do---I sell online--and had brought a lot of stock into the house.
I got up early this morning and started tidying up.
He had to take my car in for a service and as he was leaving--while I was busy tidying up- he jokingly said "I expect this place to be spek and span  when I get back"

It presses a button in me.I am sure that is the way his mother spoke to him.
Guess what? I had no desire to carry on tidying up and it was just as untidy when he came back as when he left.
It puts a dampen on what ever I am doing. This is a trait that I will never accept in this man.I hate it with a passion.
His mother walked into my house one day--marched in like a sergeant major--and said"Oh house all tidy now"
It is a personality trait I do not understand and it does not seem to go way.He must try and give me any advise about my online selling business and I will react with something like"It is not for you to tell me how to run my business"
So what is wrong with me? What have I suffered to keep him at bay?

I think my marriage is more an understanding than a marriage.
We have  three lovely boys who have turned out well.I give him a lot of credit for that and I give myself the credit as well but the 2 of us were never suited.
I love him in a compassionate way. Strange thing to say.

This is how we live. He is on pension but we cannot live on his full pension but must re-invest so that his investments can grow or in 10 years time we will head for a financial problem.I have been in the antique business for 25years and sell online so I contribute to the household as much as he does.I find this annoying  simply because any extra's come out of my pocket.

One day I said to him when he neede money for something or other"What would you do if I died tomorrow" How would you pay these things.
Oh! he says "I suppose I will have to find a job"
Why cant he do that right now? I dont shop often but if I buy something for myself--like clothing I hide it from him.
Dependant but controlling.

I always got these feeling thathe wanted to deprive me of most things.
For instance I am not fond of fruit juices but I love Tomato juice. He dislikes it.It tends to be a bit more expensive than other fruit juices but if he did not want to buy something I asked him to buy he would just lie and say they did not have any.

Quite recently we were out for the day and I ordered a tomato juice at lunch and he suddenly went cold.Why would tomato juice upset him in this way? I have learned to live with it.Just ignore him.

[catchingup]

I think there is a vast difference between forgiveness and trust. I can forgive when continued trust isn't warranted.

Luise I think the reason a post here bombs out sometimes is because we are logged out after an hour so if the hour is up and one tries to post it.it will come up with "You vcannot post here" because the person is not logged in anymore.

[Nana]

Catchingup:

It was funny how I read with interest what you said about your husband's traits.  Like I was thinking on my hubby.  He does buy things he knows I like withouth me asking, even if he does not eat them.  But...when we go shopping (and it is very rare because he hates to go shopping) and I like a blouse or whatever and it is very expensive, he tells me it looks cheap or its not nice. even if he is not going to pay for it.  It makes me laugh.  He says this only after seeing the price tag.  If I go ahead and buy it, he doesnt say anything.  But when it comes to buying me a car, he goes all for it.  He even insist on me getting a new car.  Sometimes people are funny ha? 


Its intelligent how you are managing things in your relationship with him.  It is sometimes to hard to share your life with some people.   

Just sharing.
Love
Rosie

[luise.volta]

You don't get dropped after an hour as far as I know. You can stay logged in forever unless you log off your computer. I only get that message after I have rebooted. Has anyone else had that problem?